Two things that are paramount in this league are being able to rush the passer and being able to cover. We just watched a historically bad defense that could not do either and have clearly identified both as major needs going into this off-season. We signed Vernon and Jenkins, retained JPP and last night we bolstered the CB position by taking the best CB/player we had on our board at the time of our pick and a player who has the upside to be the best DB in the draft outside of Jalen Ramsey.
Tunsil was tempting but after getting burned by Will Hill, can you really blame the Giants brass for passing on a player with character concerns? I personally don't view the guy smoking weed as a huge deal or major red flag but the bottom line is that when you get caught doing it in this league, you get suspended. Maybe Tunsil learned his lesson and won't ever do it again but a #10 pick in a draft is a major investment and perhaps it was just too risky.
It's clear Myles Jack's knee is a major red flag for most teams in this draft. If it weren't, we never would have had the opportunity to take the player in the first place.
The "trade down!" crowd never seems to understand that to trade down you a) need a trade down partner and b) have to be satisfied with what that team is willing to give you to take your pick. As most know, Reese did say there was an offer but that offer was not good enough. He did the right thing by not taking it if that were the case.
And lastly, I can't help but think that a very large percentage of the posters who are outraged by this pick spent little to no time watching Apple play at OSU. I get the impression that had we taken Hargreaves instead, the approval rate would be much higher simply because Hargreaves was mentioned much more often going into the draft as a player who would be taken around our pick and became a "familiar" name. Our FO seems to believe that Apple is the better player and considering Reese's track record in the 1st rd, I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt for now.
Oh, and we still have picks left to address other needs. The draft doesn't end after the 1st round. Can we take a deep breath here?
What if both were on the board?
Exactly
We don’t know what the Giants were offered to move back, or how far. My guess is that they were offered a chance to move back just a few spots, and that’s why they were offered just a fourth. I can understand not doing that.
But I would have tried for a deeper drop, maybe to twenty. As to what they could have gotten, the tenth pick is worth 1,300 points. The twentieth is worth 850, and the fifty-first is worth 390. Jackson/Butler, and a second, would be better value than Apple. That is especially true since the strength of this draft is in the second and third rounds.
Reese is eventually going to hit on one of his “measureables” guys. I hope it’s Apple. I’m rooting for him. He has size, strength, and speed, but he grabs a lot. Even if he does hit on Apple, I typically don’t give GMs much credit for picking good players in first or even second rounds. They’re supposed to consistently hit on those picks. It’s like giving a golfer credit for making three foot putts.
I have tried to state my opinions as politely as possible. I will not respond to vulgarity or personal insults. This is a sports board, and in any event, I grew up with a shockingly vulgar, violent, drunk.
Interesting.. Rick's post a little earlier says they wanted Apple. I don't know who is right or wrong... just would be interesting to see who they'd have preferred had they had a choice.
Kinda soubds like an Eagles stat
I have no problem with the Apple pick. I personally liked him better than either Floyd or Hargreaves due to his better size. I would've taken Tunsil, but can't blame the brass for passing on him.
Quote:
My guess would be VH was their guy.
Interesting.. Rick's post a little earlier says they wanted Apple. I don't know who is right or wrong... just would be interesting to see who they'd have preferred had they had a choice.
A guess on my part, given VH is a UF kid. I'd read consistently TB was known to want one of those two CBs, not to mention Miami right behind them. A trade down probably would've lost Apple for us.
Time will tell, but I think there's a good chance we did make the right pick!
So he's not quite as polished as VH, he's only 20 freaking years old and could be as polished with coaching by the middle of the upcoming season or sooner!
It's funny how so many were critical of VH because he is only 5'10" and of Floyd for among other things, being 24 years old.
Here, we got a CB who is 2" taller, faster and younger than VH!
Tunsil and his bad character, Jack and his bad knee and trading down were not better options! The complainers should get a grip!
and I really didn't think Apple to go that high
So Trust we got the right guy .
Have to address the Offense WR OT problem
is there are still More defensive prospects left
do we now end up reaching ?
Jason Spriggs and Sterling Sheppard come to mind .
I admit that I was surprised by the pick and liked Hargreaves ahead of Apple. That said, I know that I'm only basing it on an eye test and my knowledge from playing the position. That's a lot different than a scout's take and I can also see what they like from him. I also understand the feeling of Cedric Jones-redux due to Jack's knee and Tunsil's drug thing, but it's clear teams wanted no part of Jack's knee in RD1, which tell us about the status of it since he's a talented player otherwise. Tunsil is potentially Will Hill all over again, so why would we risk that? OL hungry teams passed on him, not just the Giants. Guys here would call for Reese's head the moment this guy did anything again, so from a perception standpoint, it was a lose-lose scenario for the FO.
As for value, none of us truly know what's out there on teams' boards. Who saw Artie Burns, Keanu Neal or Joshua Garnett would be picked ahead of guys like Ragland, Reed, Dodd, or Miles Jack? How do we know that Apple, the Giants top CB and top player (sans health/character issues) on the board, was not coveted by another team? There are way too many things that we aren't privy to or in a position to be so certain with our outrage.
I'll take comfort in guys like Dave Te & Sy saying that Apple is a top player and hope that their assessment, and the Giants FO's assessment is a home run.
Yes, nailed it. Without trying to talk down VH because he is a nice player, but he is way too slow and short. I don't see much upside there. Apple has tremendous upside - size, speed, quickness, attitude. We need younger players with high upside. This is a start.
What does actually concern me is the apparent passivity and conservative nature of the Giants and the opportunity cost that implies. There is little if any indication that the Giants initiated calls to possible trade partners but were instead once again content to sit tight and let the draft come to them. If this is true, they may have missed out on what many believe (rightly or wrongly) to have been a primary target in Floyd. Note, for example, how the Texans moved up one spot at 20 to prevent other teams from trading there to grab their target. Now we don't know if there was a reasonable deal to be made with the Bucs at 9, but did we even try?
Likewise, was the last minute video of Tunsil the deal-breaker for the Giants? If that did not come out, would the Giants have run to the podium to draft him at 10? I suspect so, but of course don't know for sure. I would be disappointed if just that video caused this team to pass on him. But if it confirmed legitimate concerns and suspicions already held by the Giants, then I don't have a problem with passing on him. Again, we can only speculate.
So in the end I can see a basis for an initial negative reaction, even if it doesn't stand up in the end to more careful analysis and argument.
it's that simple
There is little if any indication that the Giants initiated calls to possible trade partners but were instead once again content to sit tight and let the draft come to them.
In what form would this "indication" take place?
What does actually concern me is the apparent passivity and conservative nature of the Giants and the opportunity cost that implies. There is little if any indication that the Giants initiated calls to possible trade partners but were instead once again content to sit tight and let the draft come to them. If this is true, they may have missed out on what many believe (rightly or wrongly) to have been a primary target in Floyd. Note, for example, how the Texans moved up one spot at 20 to prevent other teams from trading there to grab their target. Now we don't know if there was a reasonable deal to be made with the Bucs at 9, but did we even try?
Likewise, was the last minute video of Tunsil the deal-breaker for the Giants? If that did not come out, would the Giants have run to the podium to draft him at 10? I suspect so, but of course don't know for sure. I would be disappointed if just that video caused this team to pass on him. But if it confirmed legitimate concerns and suspicions already held by the Giants, then I don't have a problem with passing on him. Again, we can only speculate.
So in the end I can see a basis for an initial negative reaction, even if it doesn't stand up in the end to more careful analysis and argument.
But the thing is.. we don't even know if they wanted Floyd as badly as it sounded. Maybe they didn't. We just don't know. Unless anyone had access to their actual draft board and I doubt anyone here does. So unless we know that, then we can't even say "well, they could have just moved up" because maybe they didn't feel the value was there at that point.
I don't care if people don't like the Apple pick. I'm not telling people they're not allowed to like it. But when I see posts that people are "boycotting" the team or going into "FIRE JERRY REACH!!!!" mode because of it, I think it's completely ludicrous. And there were a LOT of these reactions. I'm not just cherry picking, (I feel like I should make an apple picking joke here but can't figure it out.. anyway) this place turned into a madhouse.
Does anyone really think Reese didn't call any other GM?
Does anyone really think no other GM came to Reese after another team offered to move up (or back) and tried to get a better deal than the offer that GM already had?
Since everyone knew who the Giants wanted you would think teams would be calling Reese non-stop trying to fleece him for picks to get the players he supposedly loved.
In all likelihood the Giants loved Floyd, Elliot, and Conklin but didn't love them as much as Apple + the draft pick they would be forced to give up.
21 - 10 = 11. 11! It's simple math!
21 - 10 = 11. 11! It's simple math!
So we should have received 11 first round picks for trading back and not taking Apple!?
FIRE JERRY REACH
I don't think they took 30 seconds to decide and then had all the Mara grandkids in the war room fist bumping and preening for the cameras like they were in the backdrop of the Today show set.
Or like they were in Jerrah's House.....
I'd imagineit's likely even more than that a lot of the time
His career is only going to be 1 year long? DRC and Jenkins signed lifetime deals?
You need more than 2 cover guys. This is a passing league more than ever and teams have 3 WR on the field constantly. This was a need.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
Nice job by the front office.
Few if any had Apple to NY at pick #10.
Quote:
Guys, we had a lot of holes and still have a lot. This was a bad football team last year. I want the right side of the OL to be addressed as badly as you do but remember.. this was an above average NFL offense last year that would have won more games with even just league average defense.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
I am fairly confident that few people watched Apple extensively enough to have well-informed opinions of his strengths/weaknesses and projections, yet some of these posters are the ones who are the loudest detractors.
Me? I've seen him play a bit. I'm not a scout, I'm not a guy who dissects "film" or spends hours studying player technique. All I can go by is what I've seen and what more qualified people have said about him. And so, I'm not voicing my opinion as fact the way a lot of other people are. I like a lot of things about him but I won't know how I feel about him as a Giant until he actually steps onto the field and plays for us.
I don't think I sound ignorant at all. I think the people who are yelling about firing Jerry Reese before Apple plays one down or are threatening to boycott the team because of a draft pick most certainly do, though.
it's that simple
And the stupidest ones are the loudest.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
So lets rank the top 5 CBs not counting Ramsey as he is really a FS to being with in the NFL.
http://gbnreport.com/2015-nfl-draft-player-rankings/top-cornerbacks/
The G-Men view him better that Hargreaves....some see it different but we can all agree CB was a major need so the CB position in the 1st is fine. The issue is the player selected and where....If he plays like the best CB going into the middle of his 2nd yr and beyond excellent pick. Now at 10 you want an immediate starter and due to how bad our CB situation is/was he will start. The DB coaches are about to earn their coin ... dude is a PI flag waiting on happen currently, but since it is technique not physical based errors it can be corrected. Time will tell...
Quote:
In comment 12931517 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Guys, we had a lot of holes and still have a lot. This was a bad football team last year. I want the right side of the OL to be addressed as badly as you do but remember.. this was an above average NFL offense last year that would have won more games with even just league average defense.
I suspect at least 2 of the next 3 picks will be on the offensive side of the football. I'm sure we have our eye on guys like Boyd and Shepard.
Please spare me how much YOU think others have watched or
how often have watched Eli Apple play (from your initial post above)...I watched him play personally a lot okay.
Don't presume things, you sound ignorant when doing so.
Secondly, how do you know a team like the Titans for example, didn't contact Reese BEFORE moving up to No. 8
with the Browns? I have learned over the years, don't take everything a GM or owner says at face value too.
I am fairly confident that few people watched Apple extensively enough to have well-informed opinions of his strengths/weaknesses and projections, yet some of these posters are the ones who are the loudest detractors.
Me? I've seen him play a bit. I'm not a scout, I'm not a guy who dissects "film" or spends hours studying player technique. All I can go by is what I've seen and what more qualified people have said about him. And so, I'm not voicing my opinion as fact the way a lot of other people are. I like a lot of things about him but I won't know how I feel about him as a Giant until he actually steps onto the field and plays for us.
I don't think I sound ignorant at all. I think the people who are yelling about firing Jerry Reese before Apple plays one down or are threatening to boycott the team because of a draft pick most certainly do, though.
Okay, fair enough. It just didn't come across well, that's all. Yeah, people get carried away, personally I think
it was a Reach. To be honest, I like the CB the Bengals selected in the first round better than Apple.
He had the most passes defensed in the NCAA last year, about the same size, make up speed, slightly slower.
He better hit a couple of HR's today.
The G-Men view him better that Hargreaves....some see it different but we can all agree CB was a major need so the CB position in the 1st is fine. The issue is the player selected and where....If he plays like the best CB going into the middle of his 2nd yr and beyond excellent pick. Now at 10 you want an immediate starter and due to how bad our CB situation is/was he will start. The DB coaches are about to earn their coin ... dude is a PI flag waiting on happen currently, but since it is technique not physical based errors it can be corrected. Time will tell...
[/quote]
Quote:
simply were hellbent on drafting a position they consider an urgent need.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
Yup. It was looking good for the OT supporters until Conklin was picked.
I can't help but feel the outrage here would be 10 times as bad.
You are taking massive liberties with your theories. You have no idea who was graded where and you don't know what the Giants were willing to give up, if anything, to move up from 10. Without definitively knowing either factor, its unfair to claim they didn't know what was going on in front of them.
Its not some big secret as to who likes which player. Everyone knew the teams starving for a QB or a WR, etc. Its really not that difficult.
Quote:
In comment 12932826 JonC said:
Quote:
simply were hellbent on drafting a position they consider an urgent need.
The irony of this is that CB was an urgent need. A lot of people haven't figured that out for some reason.
Yup. It was looking good for the OT supporters until Conklin was picked.
First time I have ever heard Reese actually admit the word NEED on a 1st RD. draft pick. He may have said it before, but I don't recall.
The idea that Reese was completely oblivious to the way the draft was playing out in front of us isn't even worth addressing because if you think that, you're just not set in reality here.
Secondly. How do you know that the trade up cost would have covered the gap in value between Apple and Floyd/Conklin? What if the Giants had Apple in the same tier and felt that the cost of moving up to get one of the other two would have negated any potential difference and then some?
You can't just make all of these assumptions and then create an argument that way.
arc, I think they got a great player that will take 2 years for the rest to come around. Great pic. Great pick.