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So how are we feeling about Eli Apple?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/30/2016 10:01 am
The opinion of Sy'56 and Dave Te makes me feel better.

But to me, he's absolutely critical to this draft. If he isn't really a top 10 pick in terms of quality and "just a guy", this draft is going to suck.

The limited tape I've seen on him is mixed.
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Can't comment on him at this time,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/30/2016 10:45 am : link
but what I can comment on is this: Today's NFL has MOST secondary guys clutching and grabbing-a lot...That's a big reason why Secondary flags keep flying..The awful rules have seen to that..

Obviously with experience he'll be "caught" less, but let's not act as though that's any kind of red flag in today's game
RE: 2016 draft  
baadbill : 4/30/2016 10:45 am : link
In comment 12936047 stoneman said:
Quote:
Even if Apple is JAG, he will still contribute. I think the key to this draft is if Shepard can be the Wes Welker of this offense (open underneath and more importantly NO DROPS in traffic), this would save the draft no matter what Eli does or does not do for the defense. This offense is good, it could be top 2 or 3. Wish they had had gotten the TE Henry, catches in traffic and NO DROPs, to compliment the receivers. I have to watch NE a lot and the NO DROPS is the key to their offense, even 2 yard completions that seem trivial.


That's what scares me. You can't be successful over the long term drafting JAG when you have a top 10 pick. That's fine when you're picking at 20 but not when you are picking #9 and #10 in back to back years. You have to make those picks count and you have to do WAY BETTER than JAG.
Here is the problem,  
Doomster : 4/30/2016 10:46 am : link
anyone can watch film.....when we look at these highlight films, they are what they are, highlights....

What you want to see, is how a player reacts to situations....

But no one can watch over every player like that....that's where the scouting system comes into play...

They know who the top players are, and they should be scouting them....the better your scouting system is, the less of a crap shoot, the draft becomes....

Let's face it, is it easier to make a pick in the first two rounds, but after that, it's the scouting system that separates the wheat from the chaff....

And our scouting system has come up short in that regard....
I feel better after Sy and Dave TE's input  
Rjanyg : 4/30/2016 10:47 am : link
We needed to add a CB and we know the value placed on the CB position
I would have liked to see them roll the dice on Tunsil.  
wgenesis123 : 4/30/2016 10:48 am : link
I don't think that was an option for Reese via a Mara dirrective. Tunsil could end up a huge bust and Apple a great player for all I know. Did not want to sweat out the injury with Jack, so he will probably be fine.
He was a real good choice  
RetroJint : 4/30/2016 10:49 am : link
The problem with corners is everybody wants them to bat 1.000.
It just doesn't work that way. A common emotion shared by fans of all teams in the NFL is unhappiness with their corner play.

The ball is in the air all the time now. 62-65 % of those passes are getting completed. Passes thrown to the boundary increased significantly last season. It is a personal belief that Mike Haynes was the greatest football player of all-time. The guy played his position better than anyone has ever played theirs. CB is the second hardest one to play. But the changes in the game have made corner more difficult to play.

Eli needs to shorten his blind spot in close coverage. He looks too late at times when he tracks. He also loses his bearings for the sidelne occasionally. When he thinks he is pressing his guy on the stripe, he leaves an alley. Or, as he did against Sparty, he was closer than he thought so he pressed the receiver off the field and drew a huge DPI.

These flaws are correctable. He is now a professional. He doesn't have a GPA to worry about. I think they will start him off underneath doing a lot of what Wade fucked up last season. But he is so much better than what they have had, including Prince, who needed a treasure map out there to find the ball.
RE: Can't comment on him at this time,  
Bill L : 4/30/2016 10:50 am : link
In comment 12936059 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
but what I can comment on is this: Today's NFL has MOST secondary guys clutching and grabbing-a lot...That's a big reason why Secondary flags keep flying..The awful rules have seen to that..

Obviously with experience he'll be "caught" less, but let's not act as though that's any kind of red flag in today's game
seems to me that a guy whose natural tendency is to grab would be at a *greater* rather than lesser disadvantage if the system is rigged to be more sensitive to it.
RE: He was a real good choice  
Big Blue '56 : 4/30/2016 10:51 am : link
In comment 12936074 RetroJint said:
Quote:
The problem with corners is everybody wants them to bat 1.000.
It just doesn't work that way. A common emotion shared by fans of all teams in the NFL is unhappiness with their corner play.

The ball is in the air all the time now. 62-65 % of those passes are getting completed. Passes thrown to the boundary increased significantly last season. It is a personal belief that Mike Haynes was the greatest football player of all-time. The guy played his position better than anyone has ever played theirs. CB is the second hardest one to play. But the changes in the game have made corner more difficult to play.

Eli needs to shorten his blind spot in close coverage. He looks too late at times when he tracks. He also loses his bearings for the sidelne occasionally. When he thinks he is pressing his guy on the stripe, he leaves an alley. Or, as he did against Sparty, he was closer than he thought so he pressed the receiver off the field and drew a huge DPI.

These flaws are correctable. He is now a professional. He doesn't have a GPA to worry about. I think they will start him off underneath doing a lot of what Wade fucked up last season. But he is so much better than what they have had, including Prince, who needed a treasure map out there to find the ball.


That's a great post RJ..
One thing I do hope  
Bill L : 4/30/2016 10:52 am : link
Is that he gets a nickname or we call him Apple. This Eli thing is already confusing the heck out of me.
This wasn't a deep draft for can't mss prospects  
BurlyMan : 4/30/2016 10:53 am : link
A lot of the top rated guys at their positions had holes in their game (Hargreaves, Treadwell, Bosa, Tunsil) or high risks/concerns (Jack, Tunsil). Not the best year to be in the top 10. So I like how they went and got their guy. They way we go through DBs you can't have too many.
RE: RE: Can't comment on him at this time,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/30/2016 10:54 am : link
In comment 12936079 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 12936059 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


but what I can comment on is this: Today's NFL has MOST secondary guys clutching and grabbing-a lot...That's a big reason why Secondary flags keep flying..The awful rules have seen to that..

Obviously with experience he'll be "caught" less, but let's not act as though that's any kind of red flag in today's game

seems to me that a guy whose natural tendency is to grab would be at a *greater* rather than lesser disadvantage if the system is rigged to be more sensitive to it.


31, I hear you. Just trying to convey the fact that with all the increased passing in the NFL and I'm assuming college as well, clutching and grabbing are more the norm these days, So I'm not very concerned about his rep. Sure, I hope he cleans this up and gets called less, but with the officials calling everything nowadays, I don't see all that improvement in the clutching and grabbing by DBs
RE: One thing I do hope  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/30/2016 10:56 am : link
In comment 12936084 Bill L said:
Quote:
Is that he gets a nickname or we call him Apple. This Eli thing is already confusing the heck out of me.


LOL... it's true... plus one of the best tweets I saw this weekend was, "Wait, now we want Eli to dramatically increase his interceptions?"
RE: RE: One thing I do hope  
Bill L : 4/30/2016 11:00 am : link
In comment 12936100 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 12936084 Bill L said:


Quote:


Is that he gets a nickname or we call him Apple. This Eli thing is already confusing the heck out of me.



LOL... it's true... plus one of the best tweets I saw this weekend was, "Wait, now we want Eli to dramatically increase his interceptions?"
Ha. Wait until the Monday synopsis-reading pundits actually start crediting the Eli interceptions to Eli to tell us what a crappy an he is.
He's not 21 until August  
Canton : 4/30/2016 11:04 am : link
.
I'm ecstatic about it for one simple reason:  
MBavaro : 4/30/2016 11:11 am : link
No more Hosley.
RE: RE: One thing I do hope  
Klaatu : 4/30/2016 11:13 am : link
In comment 12936100 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 12936084 Bill L said:


Quote:


Is that he gets a nickname or we call him Apple. This Eli thing is already confusing the heck out of me.



LOL... it's true... plus one of the best tweets I saw this weekend was, "Wait, now we want Eli to dramatically increase his interceptions?"


He's a rookie, so Green Apple works for me.
I think the pick was a very safe double (not quite a homerun)  
Eric on Li : 4/30/2016 11:14 am : link
like most Reese picks other than ODB. All things considered Reese has a higher batting average in the first round than pretty much anyone else in terms of guys contributing and not being busts so I expect Apple to follow suit. I didn't love it at first because most seem to think Apple is more athlete than a football player and in a lot of ways his tape reminded me of Prince in how he's in position but didn't always make plays on the ball, but I really like everything I've read since about his work ethic and character so combine that with his athleticism and I think he's a pretty safe bet to be a solid contributor (worst case hopefully we got a more durable Prince).

I don't think he has instincts that he will ever be confused with Patrick Peterson, Richard Sherman, or Darelle Revis, but I'm hopeful he'll reach that next level just below elite (Desmond Trufant/Vontae Davis). Those 2 in particular are still capable of making QB's look to the other side of the field the majority of the time despite not being quite on the level of the other guys mentioned.
RE: Good, very good! Somehow the second round pick made me  
dg901 : 4/30/2016 11:18 am : link
In comment 12936025 wgenesis123 said:
Quote:
feel much better about the first round pick.

Why? I personally have more quawms with Shepard as the best option at WR than I did Apple in the position we were in.
Shepard will make the draft.  
KWALL2 : 4/30/2016 11:18 am : link
.
Make no mistake about it, Giants wanted Floyd  
Vanzetti : 4/30/2016 11:21 am : link
Unfortunately, they telegraphed the pick too much. Then, they tried to create a smokescreen with Conklin and Elliot but that did not work because both those guys were off the board so Fox knew he had to jump ahead. It was a very bad job by the Giants with information control. This is a problem, especially, as if I suspect, Tisch or his office, is the source of the leaks.

That said, Eli Apple is a very nice consolation prize. He could actually turn out t0 be better than Floyd.
I know this thread is about Apple...  
okiegiant : 4/30/2016 11:22 am : link
but I did see Shepard play several times(not a big college fan but saw several Oklahoma games while with friends and the like)and this kid looks like a football player. He wants the ball and can make plays...very excited about his abilities.
RE: Shepard will make the draft.  
Eric on Li : 4/30/2016 11:23 am : link
In comment 12936132 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
.


Agreed - he is a total stud. The way the draft fell I'd have traded back and taken one of the WRs in the mid-first + picked up an extra pick. I'd have considered that the maximum value for the #10 pick. Getting Shepard renders that point moot because he has as much upside as any WR in this draft and probably a substantially higher floor as well. Coleman was the first WR off the board and he is no doubt a more explosive athlete, but he's also a lot less polished.
KWALL  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/30/2016 11:27 am : link
Your take on Apple? I may have missed your comments elsewhere.
Got to laugh  
XBRONX : 4/30/2016 11:38 am : link
about the theory that teams jumped us. Why didnt anyone jump us for Shephard?
The Shepard pick  
bigbluehoya : 4/30/2016 11:38 am : link
Mitigated a good deal of my concern with taking Apple in the first. I really wanted Treadwell or Doctson.

I'm just not crazy about CB high in the first round, outside of generational prospects. The position is just impossible to play. Even the really good ones don't stand a chance against the top WRs in the game.i



Great prospect, but not really a good pick for the GIANTS.  
Red Dog : 4/30/2016 11:47 am : link
I know that they really needed more corners, but Reese essentially spent a first round pick on a nickel corner OR a guy who is going to push DRC off the roster, which amounts to more of Reese's unwise roster churning like we have seen in the past at DT. Either way it is not a good way to BUILD a team.

So either way it works out, it is a bad use of scarce resources, something that has been a trademark of Reese's tenure as GM.
Best CB in weak CB draft  
Steve in South Jersey : 4/30/2016 11:48 am : link
Big, fast, and athletic. Best in press coverage. Not ball aware. Poor technique in being hands on the receiver and grabby. He won't get away with that in the NFL. He is very young so with coaching we can hope that he will improve his technique and be very good CB for years to come.
I like Green Apple today a lot more than Thursday night.  
GMen23 : 4/30/2016 11:54 am : link
The 2 trades before the Giants were predicted by many, but everything fell wrong. Nobody gambled on Jack, the 3rd QB did not happen, and then the BIG Bong Gas Mask Blunder knocked Tunsil from the Chargers, Ravens, Browns, and us. I think Reese & Co. recovered well.
The Sheppard pick saved my positive off season attitude, however. I love that pick.
RE: Great prospect, but not really a good pick for the GIANTS.  
Big Blue '56 : 4/30/2016 12:02 pm : link
In comment 12936187 Red Dog said:
Quote:
I know that they really needed more corners, but Reese essentially spent a first round pick on a nickel corner OR a guy who is going to push DRC off the roster, which amounts to more of Reese's unwise roster churning like we have seen in the past at DT. Either way it is not a good way to BUILD a team.

So either way it works out, it is a bad use of scarce resources, something that has been a trademark of Reese's tenure as GM.


Red Dog in mid-season form..:)

You do know that today's D employ 3 CB regularly? That these so called nickel corners are on the field 60-70% of the time?
To articulate the resources argument - imagine they get Floyd  
Eric on Li : 4/30/2016 12:06 pm : link
they'd have been able to possibly move up for Mackensie Alexander, take Kendall Fuller or Keivarae Russell in round 3 or stand pat and have Rashard Robinson, Eric Murray, Zack Sanchez or whoever else they like still on the board right now. Apple's undoubtably a better prospect than all those guys but they could all be solid contributors day 1. There was nobody else in the entire draft with the elite first step Floyd has. Freakin Chicago. They could have also traded back and taken Artie Burns (who I think has just as much upside as Apple) or gotten an extra pick so they could roll the dice on an extra elite talent like Myles Jack as a bonus.
So if the Giants get great players in rounds 2-7,  
Mr. Bungle : 4/30/2016 12:08 pm : link
but Apple ends up just a guy, the draft will suck?

That makes no sense. You don't judge a draft class by the top pick alone.
Still more Reese  
UConn4523 : 4/30/2016 12:18 pm : link
was outsmarted I see, with still no proof, shocker.

Most of the board didn't want Floyd and Apple plays a more premium position which is a position of need right now.
Love Eli Apple  
mavric : 4/30/2016 12:29 pm : link
My three favorite players at our 10 spot was Zeke, Conklin, and Apple.

The boys took Zeke out of the gate and other teams leapfrogged us and took Floyd (who I breathed a sigh of relief that he was gone) and Conklin so it was a no brainer for me. I was still surprised to hear his name called, but man was I happy!

I had Apple rated higher than Hargreaves and see him as a future shutdown corner...but without the attitude associated with some good corners. Absolutely love this kid and hope he is very successful dressed in Blue
RE: Yes I know he was probably  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/30/2016 12:32 pm : link
In comment 12935992 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Going to be picked perhaps at 13, but I'm still down on the pick. I understand we need to look beyond 2016 and realize he's likely DRC's replacement, but the way Reese got outfoxed by both Chicago and Tennessee for Floyd and, especially, Conklin, still rubs me the wrong way. Also, if it's gonna hurt if Hargreaves makes an "all rookie" team as a full time starter out of the 11 spot while Apple gets his feet wet as the slot corner in 2016...

I don't think it's fair to say Reese got outfoxed; he just got outbid. He could have traded up to 8 or 9 as well, I'm sure. It's entirely possible that they had relatively similar grades on all three, including Apple, or that they just felt that the grades were closer than the cost of the trade up represented, even if EA was a slight drop from JC and LF.
Meh  
JerseyCityJoe : 4/30/2016 12:41 pm : link
Its hard to shake the feeling that we got punked in the first round.
Setting aside the leaks and the trades ahead of them,  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/30/2016 12:48 pm : link
if they weren't going to draft Laremy Tunsil under any circumstances, then Eli Apple is as good as any player who got picked after him. I had him as my number 1 corner.
I Like the Pick  
Mike53 : 4/30/2016 12:59 pm : link
He's a tall fast CB that this team needs. Our DBs except DRC we beaten every time by the taller receivers we face. Especially in the red zone.
Eric  
KWALL2 : 4/30/2016 1:02 pm : link
I like Apple more than Hargraves but I didn't want either with that pick. I wanted Coleman but Giants didn't see it.

After we lost on Floyd, I thought Tunsil was the obvious choice (the bong mask should have been a gift to NYG).

After the pick I watched Apple vs Michigan state. He's a physical player but he definitely uses his hands a lot down the field on receivers. That will have to change. But he's long and athletic. He can press. I liked how he flew up to support the run and also on a WR screen slipping blocks and flashing fast to the ball. You also have to really like his age.

I'm not a big fan of drafting CBs high. So many of the first round corners simply don't pan out. It's the toughest position to play in the NFL and its even tougher to draft a truly elite CB. I would go pass rush, OL, or explosive playmaker on offense over CB all day at the top of round 1. I would have loved Floyd and thought he was a perfect match for our D to play with Vernon and JPP.

On the other hand, the contracts for good corner is nuts. Jenkins is not a great player. He's a good player and he got $40 million in the first 3 years?

If Apple can play and allow us to dump DRC's salary next year his value for the team really jumps and the pick would be a good one. We would have Apple for 4 more years at a low price and can use that cap room on a proven NFL player at another position. That's how I look at it.

Not thrilled with the pick but felt better about it after reading DaveTE's take on it and seeing that extremely low completion % when teams threw at Apple.
I look at him a lot like I did Flowers last year,  
Devon : 4/30/2016 1:03 pm : link
Lots of potential and talent, definitely fits a need for the team going forward, but he's got a lot to work on and it's going to be ugly at times with him while he develops.

He's not a "win-now" pick and there's going to likely be people who are -- loudly -- not going to have the patience for that, come late November when he's getting called for critical "dumb" penalties or has been getting roasted on key third downs in division games.
Eric...  
EricJ : 4/30/2016 1:39 pm : link
Today, I feel better about it than I did yesterday. He has some physical tools that we can work with. However, my area of expertise is the defensive backfield and he MUST address the following...

1. It is as if he does not trust his feet to keep him close to the WR and he is using his hands too much. Your hands should be used quite a bit within the first 5 yards. After that, your hand is used as a sensor (keeping track of where the WR is) so you can peek back at the QB often enough to know where the play is.

2. Ball awareness. Extremely lacking here from what I can see. He has very few INTs in his short college career which also supports this. His back seems to always be to the ball. Much like a LB chasing a TE down the middle of the field.

3. Zone Defense - not sure whether this is an area of concern or not. I just have not seen enough of him playing zone. This COULD help him as it relates to seeing the play in front of him.
If he can cook on the field  
Canton : 4/30/2016 1:47 pm : link
I'm all in..
re: Floyd glad we didn't get him  
bc4life : 4/30/2016 2:10 pm : link
People kept raving about his pass rushing skills but that's not LBs primary job. Watching Jack - you see what a 1st round LB should look like. Goodson, while certainly not in Floyd's class athletically, looks more the part of a LB. At the least, a much better run stopper and better football IQ.

I'm okay with the Apple pick. With Conklin gone, don't think you would have been hearing much grumbling had they taken Hargreaves - apparently they think Apple will make the better pro. Struggled in college due to a medical condition, then his learning curve took off. Meyer talks about how much he had grown as a CB. Think he has the physical tools and had demonstrated that he is hard worker and coachable. Think he will be a good player - how close he gets to his ceiling, and becomes very good to great, will depend a lot on Spags and Walton. I'd love to have Sam Madison mentoring this kid.
Shepard  
bc4life : 4/30/2016 2:13 pm : link
might be most important pick of the draft. That pick and healthy Cruz = whole new offense. Plus, with TC gone think O will more closely resemble Green Bay's and it wasn't half bad when TC was here.
Devon  
bc4life : 4/30/2016 2:15 pm : link
think the Flowers' comparison is a good one.
I wanted Tunsil, but the more that you read about him  
David in LA : 4/30/2016 2:24 pm : link
and also seeing how Tennessee traded up to pass him speaks volumes about the risk we would have taken. I think the posters that are killing the pick are pissed that we passed on the 'big names' like Tunsil and Jack. When you focus on Eli Apple, he has every tool imaginable. I don't know what's going on with DRC, but we've heard the chatter that we might be looking to move on from him after this year. We addressed a premium position and a need, and Eli seems to check off all the boxes you want on and off the field (except the cooking part!).
RE: Shepard  
David in LA : 4/30/2016 2:27 pm : link
In comment 12936695 bc4life said:
Quote:
might be most important pick of the draft. That pick and healthy Cruz = whole new offense. Plus, with TC gone think O will more closely resemble Green Bay's and it wasn't half bad when TC was here.


Shepard is going to provide us with the most immediate return, and will be a likely ROY candidate. I agree, he is the most important pick. It would have been a recipe for disaster to go in with Odell and hold out hope for Cruz to get back some of his magic.
RE: Meh  
David in LA : 4/30/2016 2:29 pm : link
In comment 12936353 JerseyCityJoe said:
Quote:
Its hard to shake the feeling that we got punked in the first round.


We had opportunity to move up and decided the cost was too steep. How does that mean we got punked? That shows we didn't think the guy ahead of Apple on our board was so much better that we would lose additional picks to move up and get him.
RE: RE: Meh  
EricJ : 4/30/2016 3:14 pm : link
In comment 12936794 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 12936353 JerseyCityJoe said:


Quote:


Its hard to shake the feeling that we got punked in the first round.



We had opportunity to move up and decided the cost was too steep. How does that mean we got punked? That shows we didn't think the guy ahead of Apple on our board was so much better that we would lose additional picks to move up and get him.


Not sure what JC Joe meant when he said we got punked but I did not take it to mean that we should have traded up. To me, it is about two teams finding out who was high on our board and trading up in front of us to get them. If you listen closely to one of Reese's interviews in the past two days, he admits that there were players that they wanted in round 1 but were not there so he had to take the best player available.
I think Floyd and Conklin were high up on those teams  
David in LA : 4/30/2016 3:17 pm : link
boards anyways. I'm sure we had interest in both Floyd and Conklin, but these guys weren't exactly under the radar prospects to real scouts. Odds are that the Bears and Titans had them on their radar a while back.
I think Apple ends up being our best CB in years-Mark Collins anyone?  
WillieYoung : 4/30/2016 3:53 pm : link
Fast with size, young, only has played two years in college. Will get much better. Huge upside guy. He contributes right away when we go 3 db (65% of the plays, or maybe more if snacks is as good against the run as he was last year). My guess is that Jackrabbit goes inside when they have 3 CB on the field and Apple picks up the big wideout for the other team.

Draft seems great today. I hope we feel the same opening day.
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