After watching film on both of these guys Hargreaves is just more athletic. He's quicker , jumping ability greater , just more naturally athletic.
I see Hargreaves as a pro bowl type corner.
Eli Apple is faster in his 40 , but he's just not as quick or athletic in natural ability. Seems a bit stiff when he's not locked on to the receiver...Eli does shadow well , and is a good cb , reminds me of Prince , but he'll never be a pro bowl corner.
Also Eli doesn't tackle well. Hargreaves I noticed many times just nails his guy for a loss when one on one. Especially when tackling a rb in the backfield..
You may disagree with me , but I don't know how the Giants rated Eli Apple higher than Hargreaves. That's baffling??
I can only think of maybe character was higher for eli than Vernon?
How did you get the coaches tape?
What is your scouting back ground?
"Reading's for rich people." - Caretaker.
Why read when you can watch youtube videos?
How did you get the coaches tape?
What is your scouting back ground?
To answer your question I watched every snap thrown at Eli Apple in 2015...He is a good cb , but he'll never be a great cb. You can't teach talent....Like I said he's very similar to Prince , which is a good cb but nothing special.
Hargreaves has talent written all over him , plus he graded out a full point higher than Apple. Almost all of the scouts say Hargreaves has pro bowl potential. That's why he was the #1 rated corner in college. 3 years against the best competition out there.
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Was this a couple of those YouTube videos?
How did you get the coaches tape?
What is your scouting back ground?
To answer your question I watched every snap thrown at Eli Apple in 2015...He is a good cb , but he'll never be a great cb. You can't teach talent....Like I said he's very similar to Prince , which is a good cb but nothing special.
Hargreaves has talent written all over him , plus he graded out a full point higher than Apple. Almost all of the scouts say Hargreaves has pro bowl potential. That's why he was the #1 rated corner in college. 3 years against the best competition out there.
And how did you get the coaches tape?
What are your qualifications as a talent evaluator?
I agree with what your saying. However talent vs talent Hargreaves has more natural ability. Sure Apple is 2 inches taller and slightly faster straightline speed , but Hargreaves has incredible jumping ability , very athletic , can knock passes away. Better turn of direction , more impact player.
I'm still saying Hargreaves will be the better corner now and for his career. The only thing I can think of his Apple is a good kid , who is a hard worker. Maybe the Giants felt he'll put the time into it. But I still don't get what the Giants were thinking? Head scratcher...
Eli Apple is a man to man cove corner who could develop into a shutdown corner type, he has the size and speed needed, he is 20 years old, pretty tough to say he won't develop when he is so young. he also has only played 2 seasons. He had a 48% completion percentage against him, which is pretty good.
Everything you say is simply not true, Hargreaves in more pro ready, while Apple has the higher upside.
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In comment 12939503 nygiants16 said:
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Was this a couple of those YouTube videos?
How did you get the coaches tape?
What is your scouting back ground?
To answer your question I watched every snap thrown at Eli Apple in 2015...He is a good cb , but he'll never be a great cb. You can't teach talent....Like I said he's very similar to Prince , which is a good cb but nothing special.
Hargreaves has talent written all over him , plus he graded out a full point higher than Apple. Almost all of the scouts say Hargreaves has pro bowl potential. That's why he was the #1 rated corner in college. 3 years against the best competition out there.
And how did you get the coaches tape?
What are your qualifications as a talent evaluator?
Go to nfl.com and notice the Draft grades they gave on Hargreaves vs Apple. Vernon grades a full point higher than Apple.
Also u can watch online every ball thrown Apples way vs Hargreaves. Don't get me wrong Apple is a good cb but he isn't an impact player like Odell was. He's just doesn't have the natural talent ability to be that GUY....
Personally he is just a B graded player and not an A like we needed with the 10th pick....
That's my opinion , your more than welcome to disagree with me but I'm sticking to it....My eyes tell me what I need to see.
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In comment 12939523 sxdxca said:
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In comment 12939503 nygiants16 said:
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Was this a couple of those YouTube videos?
How did you get the coaches tape?
What is your scouting back ground?
To answer your question I watched every snap thrown at Eli Apple in 2015...He is a good cb , but he'll never be a great cb. You can't teach talent....Like I said he's very similar to Prince , which is a good cb but nothing special.
Hargreaves has talent written all over him , plus he graded out a full point higher than Apple. Almost all of the scouts say Hargreaves has pro bowl potential. That's why he was the #1 rated corner in college. 3 years against the best competition out there.
And how did you get the coaches tape?
What are your qualifications as a talent evaluator?
Go to nfl.com and notice the Draft grades they gave on Hargreaves vs Apple. Vernon grades a full point higher than Apple.
Also u can watch online every ball thrown Apples way vs Hargreaves. Don't get me wrong Apple is a good cb but he isn't an impact player like Odell was. He's just doesn't have the natural talent ability to be that GUY....
Personally he is just a B graded player and not an A like we needed with the 10th pick....
That's my opinion , your more than welcome to disagree with me but I'm sticking to it....My eyes tell me what I need to see.
And your qualifications are?
You played in Pop Warner?
Hargreaves is more ready now. He has a “higher floor,” but probably a “lower ceiling” than Apple. I say probably, because he has fantastic change of direction and ball skills, as well as excellent anticipation. But if he succeeds, Apple is more likely to be able to play the boundary corner position.
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In comment 12939523 sxdxca said:
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In comment 12939503 nygiants16 said:
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Was this a couple of those YouTube videos?
How did you get the coaches tape?
What is your scouting back ground?
To answer your question I watched every snap thrown at Eli Apple in 2015...He is a good cb , but he'll never be a great cb. You can't teach talent....Like I said he's very similar to Prince , which is a good cb but nothing special.
Hargreaves has talent written all over him , plus he graded out a full point higher than Apple. Almost all of the scouts say Hargreaves has pro bowl potential. That's why he was the #1 rated corner in college. 3 years against the best competition out there.
And how did you get the coaches tape?
What are your qualifications as a talent evaluator?
Go to nfl.com and notice the Draft grades they gave on Hargreaves vs Apple. Vernon grades a full point higher than Apple.
Also u can watch online every ball thrown Apples way vs Hargreaves. Don't get me wrong Apple is a good cb but he isn't an impact player like Odell was. He's just doesn't have the natural talent ability to be that GUY....
Personally he is just a B graded player and not an A like we needed with the 10th pick....
That's my opinion , your more than welcome to disagree with me but I'm sticking to it....My eyes tell me what I need to see.
Quote:
Was this a couple of those YouTube videos?
How did you get the coaches tape?
What is your scouting back ground?
To answer your question I watched every snap thrown at Eli Apple in 2015...He is a good cb , but he'll never be a great cb. You can't teach talent....Like I said he's very similar to Prince , which is a good cb but nothing special.
Hargreaves has talent written all over him , plus he graded out a full point higher than Apple. Almost all of the scouts say Hargreaves has pro bowl potential. That's why he was the #1 rated corner in college. 3 years against the best competition out there.
Nope. Hargreaves rose as the draft was nearing. He wasn't even placed into real consideration in the top 10 until a month ago. The knock on him has always been his height, arm length, concentration issues, playing the ball vs playing his man or giving up on plays when beat.
Very undersized. Good thickness, but height and arm length limit him against bigger receivers in close quarters.
Lacks long speed. Hargreaves doesn't have the speed to keep up with fast receivers or recover if he is beaten.
Aggressive play leaves him vulnerable to double moves. Recovery speed then becomes an issue.
Link - ( New Window )
Have you ever actually watched cut up game film? No. So shut the fuck up.
But I like the fact the Giants did their due diligence and had conviction in their pick.
As others have said, let's review after at least 1 season, really 2 or more, before we decide who's really better
Have you ever actually watched cut up game film? No. So shut the fuck up.
unless you work for a college program and have access to such film lol...
everything i have watched shows a very very good corner when he press and a corner susceptible to comeback routes when playing off coverage as he tends to give a lot. he needs to trust his reads better in zone too. in terms of his low INT rate, he just needs to get better about tracking the ball when he gets his head around.
VH3 is a better playmaker RIGHT NOW but that could change, his height isnt ideal and he isnt as good in man as apple. both are good giants went with apple and i am fine with it
All we know is, for some reason, the Giants liked Eli more. Maybe it was his age, his work ethic, combine measurables, what his college coaches said, something they saw on tape, or interviews with him. Either way, he's a Giant and let's all hope that the Giants' prediction between the two of them turns out to be correct.
Chris Ash Rutgers HC and the OSU DB coach said he was instructed to do that. Said all their DBs are instructed to be as physical as possible. Ash said he has no issue shadowing receivers without doing it but Meyers and his coaches wanted to show opponents how physical they were. The OSU LB coach backed up that statement when he came on ESPN to talk about Lee.
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Apple has less experience than Hargreaves and as Mayock put it, "it's all because of lack of reps". Apple's size is a plus with bigger receivers and in the red zone. His speed is a plus in recovering - something every corner has to do from time to time. It's hard to say who's better, but if I had to guess, I'd say Hargreaves will be better this season, but that Apple will have the better career.
I agree with what your saying. However talent vs talent Hargreaves has more natural ability. Sure Apple is 2 inches taller and slightly faster straightline speed , but Hargreaves has incredible jumping ability , very athletic , can knock passes away. Better turn of direction , more impact player.
I'm still saying Hargreaves will be the better corner now and for his career. The only thing I can think of his Apple is a good kid , who is a hard worker. Maybe the Giants felt he'll put the time into it. But I still don't get what the Giants were thinking? Head scratcher...
Hargreaves struggles vs big, physical receivers and gave up a pretty high YPC in college. He can't change his size or speed.
Apple has some technical issues that can be coached up and will flourish in Spags scheme.
Apple projects better with the Giants now and going forward.
Meyers has always coach close to vest. His defense was the same way in Florida. He and Saban are masters at pushing the envelope and knowing the rules.
I'm going with the dude that spent hours pouring over his PFW NFL Draft Magazine.
My brother is a Jags fan and the word in Jax was Apple was high on their board too.
Mathieu just set the league on fire last year, primarily as a slot Corner. Mathieu proved that you can make an elite CB impact without being a classic outside #1 Corner.
Hargreaves owes Mathieu money.
But while VH is similar to Mathieu, he ain't no Honey Badger. Honey Badger was a rare player in college and he's proving it in the NFL.
...
Apple didn't focus on the ball enough so he didn't make enough plays on the ball, but he also didn't give up many plays either. Hargreaves was the exact opposite, ball watching and getting burned a little too often while looking for the big INT. Hargeaves has way more flash to his game, but imo Apple is better right now and has the higher ceiling.
Mathieu just set the league on fire last year, primarily as a slot Corner. Mathieu proved that you can make an elite CB impact without being a classic outside #1 Corner.
Hargreaves owes Mathieu money.
But while VH is similar to Mathieu, he ain't no Honey Badger. Honey Badger was a rare player in college and he's proving it in the NFL.
...
Apple didn't focus on the ball enough so he didn't make enough plays on the ball, but he also didn't give up many plays either. Hargreaves was the exact opposite, ball watching and getting burned a little too often while looking for the big INT. Hargeaves has way more flash to his game, but imo Apple is better right now and has the higher ceiling.
I thought I read that is the way he was coached to keep his eye on the man so that he does not get open
To put it simply, the way I see it is that Reese swung for the fences instead of settling for a double.
Why can't people reason that out. I don't give a shit how talented this kid is. IMO He's too small to cover Julio Jones Dez, Alshon Jeffrey etc. Reese most likely feels the same or he'd be aGiant
To put it simply, the way I see it is that Reese swung for the fences instead of settling for a double.
Agreed.
And correlation does not imply causation. Your reasoning is based on nothing more than an incorrect assumption that's been negated by truly expert observation.
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I think he will be good but its a matter of opinion. Maybe Hargraves will be better. All I know is that Apple feels the need to grab the receivers jersey everywhere the receiver goes and the most likely reason is the need to stay with him because he isn't fluid enough to do it without the grabbing. Thats my .02 and nothing here is a slam dunk.
Chris Ash Rutgers HC and the OSU DB coach said he was instructed to do that. Said all their DBs are instructed to be as physical as possible. Ash said he has no issue shadowing receivers without doing it but Meyers and his coaches wanted to show opponents how physical they were. The OSU LB coach backed up that statement when he came on ESPN to talk about Lee.
I heard both these interviews and this is what the casual fan doesnt get. The job of a college coach is not to prepare a player to play in the NFL. It is their job to win college games. And the rules in college allowed Apple to do what he was INSTRUCTED to go by his coaches..
Another factor.. scouts get to interview players and coaches.. fans do not..
Let me give you this tidbits from Ben McAdoo..
So it seems to me that he has a MENTAL ability that the coaches liked as well..
So ill stick with the professionals..
So there is a good chance that running it weighed in his risk analysis to be not worth him running a shitty time. If the reports are he has good hips, then running the 3 cone would either confirm or deny. He chose not to submit which means there was probably a good chance he was concerned he would hurt his draft stock by running the 3 cone
I know a DC at that level of football. I will ask the next time I see him.
The experts agree about the grabbiness in every report I read about Apple.
Here is what is truly fascination to me. I am not saying he is going to be bad or good or great. I just have concerns. The same ones noted by the experts which you keep pointing at as your reference. And then you note the Giants as a point of reference but how great has their track record been? There is a reason the roster lacks talent...so we all get to have an opinion, concerns and your logic is way more faulty then the strawman you set up about my not understanding causation.
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In comment 12939523 sxdxca said:
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In comment 12939503 nygiants16 said:
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Was this a couple of those YouTube videos?
How did you get the coaches tape?
What is your scouting back ground?
To answer your question I watched every snap thrown at Eli Apple in 2015...He is a good cb , but he'll never be a great cb. You can't teach talent....Like I said he's very similar to Prince , which is a good cb but nothing special.
Hargreaves has talent written all over him , plus he graded out a full point higher than Apple. Almost all of the scouts say Hargreaves has pro bowl potential. That's why he was the #1 rated corner in college. 3 years against the best competition out there.
And how did you get the coaches tape?
What are your qualifications as a talent evaluator?
Go to nfl.com and notice the Draft grades they gave on Hargreaves vs Apple. Vernon grades a full point higher than Apple.
Also u can watch online every ball thrown Apples way vs Hargreaves. Don't get me wrong Apple is a good cb but he isn't an impact player like Odell was. He's just doesn't have the natural talent ability to be that GUY....
Personally he is just a B graded player and not an A like we needed with the 10th pick....
That's my opinion , your more than welcome to disagree with me but I'm sticking to it....My eyes tell me what I need to see.
What do you say about the over 30% lower completion rate Eli Apple had over Hargreaves? How about the over 20 points better QB rating he had against thrown too... how about being over 2 inches taller and faster. How about being only 20 years old and getting better... how about the fact Apple showed up in big games and Vernon was toasted in big games. Hargreaves gave up half the amount of completions against than Eli Apple did in the Michigan game alone with 7 catches for over 100 yards against. Eli only 14 catches all year. If you truly watched all the games then you missed a lot!
The guy isn't being confrontational but you get the totally unneeded, abusive "what are your qualifications, did you watch the coaches tape?" snarky comments. It's a damn forum. People are entitled to their opinions. Why aren't the people who say Apple is the second coming of Revis getting the same sort of scrutiny. You can't win with this place sometimes.
Add technique and reps and in 2017 what do you have? Four years of terrific at a harder to find db position.
Have you ever actually watched cut up game film? No. So shut the fuck up.
That's the only way to judge a player? No.
Calm down bro.
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he is entitled to his opinion i disagree too but it is what it is. its a forum he can state his opinion even if MOST people disagree
The guy isn't being confrontational but you get the totally unneeded, abusive "what are your qualifications, did you watch the coaches tape?" snarky comments. It's a damn forum. People are entitled to their opinions. Why aren't the people who say Apple is the second coming of Revis getting the same sort of scrutiny. You can't win with this place sometimes.
Ned, PA and SXDXA keep saying all the scouts have Hargreaves better and by a wide margin. Sy had Hargreaves 8.5 and Apple 8.4. Dave Te had Apple almost a full point higher than Hargreaves.
I was a Hargreaves fan early last year, then I saw him get torched and I started to wonder.
Like arguing Willies Mays and Micky Mantle. Both will likely be very good DBs. Either was a good choice. But the size difference and speed difference kind of goes to Apple's advantage and his ability to jam at the line to disrupt the pattern is an advantage.
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he is entitled to his opinion i disagree too but it is what it is. its a forum he can state his opinion even if MOST people disagree
The guy isn't being confrontational but you get the totally unneeded, abusive "what are your qualifications, did you watch the coaches tape?" snarky comments. It's a damn forum. People are entitled to their opinions. Why aren't the people who say Apple is the second coming of Revis getting the same sort of scrutiny. You can't win with this place sometimes.
When you come on and say you watch "film" of both players and act like the Giants are stupid, it makes you sound stupid. They have watched actual game film, practice film, been to pratices, been to games, talk to HS coaches, talked to college coaches, research everything about prospects from football to non-football. They get to interview prospects and test their ability to run through plays and see how fast they learn. They know probably 99% more than we will ever know, but you because he watched "film", which Eli statistically in giving up receptions, yards, and TDs, was better than Hargreaves he doesnt get it.
See when you see that it makes people go... you are so dumb. He fell for a player who he likes thus he blindly assumes he is the best. I did the same for Michael Thomas of Southern Miss... he looks amazing to me, but clearly i am wrong.
You have two gamblers. DRC takes a lot of chances to go for the INT. That's my biggest fear when Jenkins was signed. Having both DRC and Jenkins out there without a speedy FS that can cover the field.
Home run hire right now. Actually getting the top NJ kids. Got the SPP QB amd the top 4 star OL in he State.
Mel had Hargreaves at 23 and Apple at 28.
McShay rated Hargreaves the third best corner, and Apple the fourth, but gave them the same grade of 89.
Scouts, Inc. gave them both the same grade.
We'll just be guessing until they strap on the pads and start to hit.
Indeed, just flip the names around lol
Hargraves not so much
I think his first year is going to be rough, and with what we have on the field, maybe he won't be rushed to the field as a starter.
A lot of times it comes down to majority opinion. If you are in a meeting going over players, and you like VH as a better prospect, but as we go around the room, other people disagree. Then even though you could be right you get over ruled.
That's why scouting can be frustrating depending on what team you work for and what the dynamic is between the owner, GM and director of college scouting.
You could put in so much work and be good at your job but other more senior scouts can have their opinon, which may fall with the majority.
So that's fine that you have an opinion that is contrary to others.
It was Apple. I think Hargreaves has great change of direction, and he'll likely be at least as good as Apple within 10 yards, but the farther away from scrimmage you get, the better Apple is by comparison.
Length and recovery speed matter. And Apple fits NY scheme/defensive philosophy better than Hargreaves.
Now, to all the people talking about "tape" or "film" versus youtube videos, just stop. There is nothing wrong with people analyzing youtube videos. There is plenty of videos of complete game snaps, especially for the top prospects. I guarantee you that the scouts are mostly watching the TV feed and focusing on the players, just like people are when they view the youtube videos. Make fun of the highlight videos, sure. But the "tape" doesn't really matter as far as what form of media it is viewed through, let's be real. Yes, the All-22 can be helpful on a limited basis. I'd be willing to bet that most scouts view the TV coverage for analysis, in addition to very limited All-22 footage, just like those of us watching the games on draftbreakdown.com or youtube. And sure, the scouts work harder and have a lot more hours, and they look at a lot more games, this is not about being critical of them or saying anyone can do what they do. It's about the ridiculous notion that someone can't have an informed opinion on a player just because of youtube being the forum through which they are watching the footage. Again, why would the form of media matter? If the footage is there, it's there, people can watch it and talk about their observations. You don't need to be pejorative about it.
The experts agree about the grabbiness in every report I read about Apple.
Here is what is truly fascination to me. I am not saying he is going to be bad or good or great. I just have concerns. The same ones noted by the experts which you keep pointing at as your reference. And then you note the Giants as a point of reference but how great has their track record been? There is a reason the roster lacks talent...so we all get to have an opinion, concerns and your logic is way more faulty then the strawman you set up about my not understanding causation.
Face it, you're wrong about Apple. You simply don't have the chops to make such statements against the consensus of real pro scouts who ranked Apple ahead of Hargreaves. You can try to chop "logic" all you want, but you just don't know what you're talking about (as usual).
I think his first year is going to be rough, and with what we have on the field, maybe he won't be rushed to the field as a starter.
The poster is getting shit because he wrote war and peace and used some You Tube video as defect proof of an opinion not a fact. Since his post borders on hysteria people are giving him a lot of grief. There a huge difference in your concerns the way you wrote it and his.
And since they just signed Jenkins and have DRC he's not the a starter barring injury. Sure he will get a lot of snaps but unless you didn't watch last year he's probably better than almost anyone else other than this two starters growing pains included.
The angst over this pick is really weird. Some people have waaaaay too much time on their hands.
Sy56 gave VH an 85, Apple an 84 with higher upside.
Fans often make the mistake of only looking at now and thinking the player now will be the same version in a few years. Projecting Apple's strengths, and noting many of his weaknesses are correctable with coaching, along with his superior measureables, Apple was and is pretty clearly an NYG-type cornerback and draft pick.
lmao
2) I think both guys are very talented and both have some big question marks. I think the Giants selected the guy they think can fit their need more right now.
3) Apple absolutely can tackle. He seems to attack the plays that are in front of him and hits hard.
Inside information, really? LOL.
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they "watch film" - other than Sy and Dave Te - is completely full of shit.
Have you ever actually watched cut up game film? No. So shut the fuck up.
You should follow your own advice!
That's the only way to judge a player? No.
Calm down bro.
Most would say Joe Haden,4.57/4.60. Some would not agree.
Although I think he ran much faster at his pro day but I do recall everyone saying he shouldn't be picked in the top 10 with that 40 time. Then the Kyle Wilson debate.
PS
The 2010 draft when McClain, Davis and Graham went off the board and we got stuck with JPP !