was the top ST'er from a grade standpoint last year. Whether that's enough to keep him on the team, I don't know, but let's not make it seem like he's just a body out there.
will need depth at LB and Herz is a good special teamer, but I hope this spells the end of them seeing significant time.
If he cna make the starting lineup, I think Goodson will be a tackling machine inside the hash marks.
5 years in the league and he is a special teamer making 1 million dollars. Complete liability in the pass game, a target for offenses the times he was forced into play. Only on the Giants.
Brewer and David Brown. Guys who looked uncomfortable in pads...
I thought for awhile that H. would get better the further he got away from chemo. I think that's so, but not sure it's enough, but at least he'll hit someone if he gets the chance.
Herzlich is a better ST player. He's terrible when you ask him to go backward and cover but serviceable when moving forward or on occasion rushing the passer. Unga is currently the 4th best MLB on the roster. He's not fast enough to cover or strong/big enough to take on blockers.
I think either Thomas or Casillas becomes a cap casualty. Both have base salaries over $2 million and Goodson makes one of them expendable. James Morris is an after thought. Herzlich's main challenge for a roster spot is Kelvin Sheppard unless the Giants are good carrying 7.
FatMan in Charlotte : 9:30 am : link : reply
Quote:
5 years in the league and he is a special teamer making 1 million dollars.
That's actually cheap for being the team's top ST'er and a backup LB.
Fatman, I can't believe you can say that with a straight face....top ST'er? backup linebacker? He is neither....
He made a few plays against the run, but his coverage skills were a joke....If I was a QB, and I saw him on the field, I would go to his man/coverage area every time....
RE: RE: If Shephard and Robinson both make the team
is a good linebacker, but Sheppard is camp fodder.
He does nothing well, and seriously? Tackles to judge a player?
Herzlich had 50 total snaps last year. Sheppard started for the Dolphins. the only defense worse than the Giants.
Here is what PFF has to sat.
Yes 105 tackle LB indicates a guy that gets himself in position to make a lot of plays and I don't read that PFF crap. Sheppard > Herzlich and it's not close.
RE: RE: RE: If Shephard and Robinson both make the team
Brinkley is the best LB they have and you have him maybe replacing Robinson?
pj -- I don't know how strong my conviction is on this -- but I don't think Brinkley is any more than serviceable -- and Robinson has demonstrated superior MLB skills to Brinkley over his career -- the issue is his health -- I don't think you can keep 3 MLBs - one of them has to go -- the only way Goodson doesn't make it (imo) is if he's injured -- you also have Herz as a third Backup and he also plays OLB - so he's more versatile. Now if you are arguing that Brinkley can play OLB and is an upgrade over Herz -- that I'm willing to consider
is a good linebacker, but Sheppard is camp fodder.
He does nothing well, and seriously? Tackles to judge a player?
Bingo. How many of those tackles were within 8 yards of the LOS? A few years ago J. Williams was at the top of the tackle board leaders on this team, yet as I recall, many of his tackles were several yards down the field.
The only Giant linebackers with substantial guarantees and/or dead money in 2016 are Thomas, Robinson and Brinkley. I guess Kennard is safe this year; Goodson too, though you can't rule out a rookie redshirt.
My advice to the rest would be: don't let the staff catch you limping.
Unga is gone. The problem with Herzlich imo is he has
such finite value. While I believe his determination and hustle makes him a decent STer (or is it the lack of others?), that is all he provides. It's not just that he is a liability as a reserve LB, it's that he will never get better at this point.
It is head-shaking we cannot find another player with similar special teams capabilities but with SOME promise to develop into a more serviceable backup.
I agree with on Herz as well. If you can find a LB who is serviceable out there and he or even another player is a solid ST'er, then Herz has little value to stay on the roster.
But if Herz is strictly here for depth and is a strong ST'er, at least he has a value the other backups don't.
but I thought JT Thomas was virtually non-existent last year, as well. I can't remember one game where he made any contribution and so he could be another guy on the bubble IMO. Unga seems like more of a MLB and so the numbers are really against him there with Brinkley coming back and the additions of Robinson and Sheppard. Competition is good and we'll see how it pans out in pre-season, but if I were a betting man I would say that Herz has the greatest chance of staying due to his value on specials.
I love the way you describe Unga. That was what I was thinking but couldn't express. As for Herzlich, I agree with you as well. He has a shot to stick if they LOVE his ST play. But, he really doesn't make it this year with LB in mind even remotely.
Is he definitely being penciled in at MLB, or SSLB a possibility? Either way, his physical play will be welcome and also fits in with the addition of Harrison, the Giants LBs in general should be a lot cleaner at the 2nd level to pursue and attack ball carriers. Harrison should really change the dynamic of this D that way.
knowledgeable posters on here that Unga is gone and Herzy is on thin ice. Golsen definitely knocks Unga off the roster. But Herzy still may not make it. Many posters are forgetting or just excluding Kelvin Shepard. He started all year for Miami with 100+ tackles and 10+ tackles for a loss. He may be the best MLB on the roster.
Fatman, I can't believe you can say that with a straight face....top ST'er? backup linebacker? He is neither....
Herzlich was graded as the Giants top ST'er (non-returner or kicker). Of course I'm going to say something with a straight face that is true.
I've already expressed that I have no great passion saying he has to stay on the team - I was arguing against those who say he's just another body on ST. It isn't true.
was the top ST'er from a grade standpoint last year. Whether that's enough to keep him on the team, I don't know, but let's not make it seem like he's just a body out there.
is/was a nice story, and he's had his + moments; entering 8th season, will be 29 at season start. May want to try long snapping.
Unga-not sure what they saw in him in the first place.
That's not great news for the other LBs who earn their keep on specials. The ST Coordinator only gets a few roster spots for his guys.
Now, Goodson would make the team anyway, and it's not as though he was drafted just for specials (McGovern apparently liked him too). But the more Quinn influenced the fourth round pick, the less capital he figures to have left for other roster decisions.
There's a typo on his Spotrac page that causes his dead-money hit to be understated. Basically a '3' was dropped from the middle of the figure, which should be $1,333,334, not $133,334. I think it should even be a bit higher now, because I believe his $250K 2016 roster bonus was either paid or is now guaranteed.
So, with about $1.5MM in dead money, he's not a completely painless cut; but he's not a costly one either. And his replacement (Goodson/Sheppard/other) is paid for - and then some - by the savings from dumping him. Doesn't mean he's gone, just that he'll have to earn his way onto the roster.
and I hope he is a permanent fixture in our LB corps but I don't really see it with him. I see a good player but I don't see that explosion. You can get by if you have great instincts, tackling ability and the ability to defeat blocks. Sy said that he views him best as a WILL but from all the press releases they are saying they view him more as a MIKE. We will see.
I read some comparisons to Antonio Pierce. I could be wrong but I never really saw Pierce as an explosive player either. There wasn't anything really physically, that stood out about him. He just always seemed to be in the right spot and was, generally speaking, a good tackler. He was just dependable and reliable and got the job done. I'm hopeful that Goodson can at least be that type of player.
I think Pierce is a good comparison regarding their skill set, both lack range going sideline to sideline.
They both have trouble with depth in coverage.
Keep in mind, AP was an UDFA when he came into the league.
maybe Herz will be too, he should be.
I think Thomas sucks, hope he is cut. Casillas is not
much better, but he is better in coverage, and can play
ST's well. That's primarily what he did before he arrived at
the Metolands.
In comment 12940344 Pat from Inside Football said:
Quote:
In comment 12940244 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
is a good linebacker, but Sheppard is camp fodder.
He does nothing well, and seriously? Tackles to judge a player?
Bingo. How many of those tackles were within 8 yards of the LOS? A few years ago J. Williams was at the top of the tackle board leaders on this team, yet as I recall, many of his tackles were several yards down the field.
LOL, just saw this Pat, thanks for chiming in... Kelvin Sheppard 2015 Stats - 102 tackles / 13 for a loss which is a 12.8% TFL ratio, one of the best in the NFL last year. Sheppard TFL Stat - ( New Window )
It's slightly better than Herzlich who was at 11.8%. And Cooper Taylor at 12.5%. He had a lot more snaps than either. therefore a lot more total. Stats of this nature are NOT indicative of how to evaluate a player.
Think your sort was off.
Sheppard signed a vet min deal with 80k guaranteed. He's not who you think he is. His contract was nearly identical to Bobby Rainey's. He's camp fodder until proven otherwise.
It's slightly better than Herzlich who was at 11.8%. And Cooper Taylor at 12.5%. He had a lot more snaps than either. therefore a lot more total. Stats of this nature are NOT indicative of how to evaluate a player.
Think your sort was off.
Sheppard signed a vet min deal with 80k guaranteed. He's not who you think he is. His contract was nearly identical to Bobby Rainey's. He's camp fodder until proven otherwise.
Are you serious? 13 TFL was one of the best in the NFL and among the highest percentage wise for anyone with over 100 tackles, if not the highest.
Moreover, I replied to Pat who chimed in that most of Sheppard's tackles were beyond the 8 yard mark, which was presumptuously incorrect. I finished with you on this point yesterday, so move along...
JPinstripes: Just a small clarification on those TFL stats.
Kelvin Sheppard 2015 Stats - 102 tackles / 13 for a loss which is a 12.8% TFL ratio, one of the best in the NFL last year.
His TFL ratio ranked 31st among defenders with at least 50 tackles. Among players with at least 100 tackles, his ratio ranked second behind Mark Barron. That's a small population - 37 players, of whom nearly a third are safeties - but it's still not a bad stat for a vet-min signing. If nothing else, Sheppard upgrades the Giants' LB depth.
is pretty darn good given his number of tackles. I really haven't seen him play, so it would be nice to get a guy would will start and put up production. Could be like the Boley or Pierce signings?
If Goodson can step in and tackle, the LB's might have gotten a lot better, even though the 2015 corps sucked
is pretty darn good given his number of tackles. I really haven't seen him play, so it would be nice to get a guy would will start and put up production. Could be like the Boley or Pierce signings?
If Goodson can step in and tackle, the LB's might have gotten a lot better, even though the 2015 corps sucked
Boley and Pierce signed multi-year deals for big $$, Sheppard signed a 1-year vet min deal with 80k guaranteed.
I don't see it. I'd love to be wrong and have this guy be the second coming of Pierce but I think it's more likely he's cut before September 11.
Here is a note from Kratch on Sheppard:
Quote:
Signing Sheppard gives the Giants added depth at the second level. Despite his high tackle total in 2015, Sheppard had his struggles in 2015 against both the run and the pass. So Robinson and Brinkley, in that order, remain the favorites to win the starting job in the middle for 2016 at this point. And any potential Giants draft strategies at linebacker should remain unchanged as well.
The best thing Kelvin Sheppard ever did for any of his NFL teams...
I think he's a Jameel McClain / Keith Rivers type acquisition: he raises the floor at a couple of positions, but you don't particularly want him playing; a good OC and QB will prey on his deficiencies - particularly in coverage. On the bright side, unlike McClain and Rivers, he cost almost nothing.
If he resembles Antonio Pierce, it's the Antonio Pierce we watched futilely chasing Brian Westbrook.
On specials, he has some value, but he is not a core essential.
An early sign that the McAdoo era is going to be better than the TC of the last 4 or 5 years is an early exit for MH.
He does nothing well, and seriously? Tackles to judge a player?
Herzlich had 50 total snaps last year. Sheppard started for the Dolphins. the only defense worse than the Giants.
Here is what PFF has to sat.
If he cna make the starting lineup, I think Goodson will be a tackling machine inside the hash marks.
5 years in the league and he is a special teamer making 1 million dollars. Complete liability in the pass game, a target for offenses the times he was forced into play. Only on the Giants.
I thought for awhile that H. would get better the further he got away from chemo. I think that's so, but not sure it's enough, but at least he'll hit someone if he gets the chance.
That's actually cheap for being the team's top ST'er and a backup LB.
Look, I wouldn't be averse to seeing Herz gone, all I'm saying is people shitting on him like he's just a body on ST are off the mark.
As long as there are no injuries.... both will be cut.
I think either Thomas or Casillas becomes a cap casualty. Both have base salaries over $2 million and Goodson makes one of them expendable. James Morris is an after thought. Herzlich's main challenge for a roster spot is Kelvin Sheppard unless the Giants are good carrying 7.
that's 4 WIL's and one SAM and 2 MIKEs, unless Goodson projects to SAM which I haven't heard (even from Sy).
unlikely.
Just my opinion, Casillas is cut before Herzlich same with Sheppard.
As long as there are no injuries.... both will be cut.
Baring injuries - I see 5 LBs hanging on:
Robinson, Goodson, Kennard, Thomas, Castillas
you need one more OLB to stick so that would rule out Unga and Herz can play OLB and plays the run well -- as well as plays special teams
my best guess is therefore:
Robinson, Goodson, Kennard, Thomas, Castillas, Herzlich
If Robinson gets injured in pre-season then Brinkley would replace him
Quote:
5 years in the league and he is a special teamer making 1 million dollars.
That's actually cheap for being the team's top ST'er and a backup LB.
Fatman, I can't believe you can say that with a straight face....top ST'er? backup linebacker? He is neither....
He made a few plays against the run, but his coverage skills were a joke....If I was a QB, and I saw him on the field, I would go to his man/coverage area every time....
Quote:
along with Brinkley, Kennard, Thomas, Casillas, and Goodson - thats 7 LBers.
As long as there are no injuries.... both will be cut.
Baring injuries - I see 5 LBs hanging on:
Robinson, Goodson, Kennard, Thomas, Castillas
you need one more OLB to stick so that would rule out Unga and Herz can play OLB and plays the run well -- as well as plays special teams
my best guess is therefore:
Robinson, Goodson, Kennard, Thomas, Castillas, Herzlich
If Robinson gets injured in pre-season then Brinkley would replace him
Brinkley is the best LB they have and you have him maybe replacing Robinson?
He does nothing well, and seriously? Tackles to judge a player?
Herzlich had 50 total snaps last year. Sheppard started for the Dolphins. the only defense worse than the Giants.
Here is what PFF has to sat.
Yes 105 tackle LB indicates a guy that gets himself in position to make a lot of plays and I don't read that PFF crap. Sheppard > Herzlich and it's not close.
Brinkley is the best LB they have and you have him maybe replacing Robinson?
pj -- I don't know how strong my conviction is on this -- but I don't think Brinkley is any more than serviceable -- and Robinson has demonstrated superior MLB skills to Brinkley over his career -- the issue is his health -- I don't think you can keep 3 MLBs - one of them has to go -- the only way Goodson doesn't make it (imo) is if he's injured -- you also have Herz as a third Backup and he also plays OLB - so he's more versatile. Now if you are arguing that Brinkley can play OLB and is an upgrade over Herz -- that I'm willing to consider
He does nothing well, and seriously? Tackles to judge a player?
Bingo. How many of those tackles were within 8 yards of the LOS? A few years ago J. Williams was at the top of the tackle board leaders on this team, yet as I recall, many of his tackles were several yards down the field.
SAM MIKE WIL
Kennard Robinson/Brinkley JT Thomas/Casillas (cut the other)
Herzlich Robinson/Brinkley Goodson (eventual starter)
Casillas or Thomas, one of them makes it. the other is cut. Whoever doesn't start out of Robinson and Brinkley the other is backup.
And Sheppard, Unga, Morris, and the other of Casillas/Thomas are fighting it out in case they keep 7 LB's.
I don't think this is a strong position (as usual) so there really isn't much difference between them.
Problem is not a lot of strong side linebackers. You can't just say put player x at SAM. Not everyone is interchangeable like that.
MIKE - Robinson/Brinkley/Goodson (one has to go)
WILL - Thomas/Castillas
MIKE - Robinson/Brinkley/Goodson (one has to go)
WILL - Thomas/Castillas
Agree with that other than WIL, I think Goodson starts at WIL and by stats I mean begins his career, not is the starter (from day 1).
Just reading Sy's and other evals seems like Goodson is a better WIL than MIKE (today).
and if that's true, you don't keep Thomas and Casillas since both make more than vet min.
My advice to the rest would be: don't let the staff catch you limping.
It is head-shaking we cannot find another player with similar special teams capabilities but with SOME promise to develop into a more serviceable backup.
Gotta improve the whole roster...
But if Herz is strictly here for depth and is a strong ST'er, at least he has a value the other backups don't.
Unga, Herzlich and maybe even one more of our stable of bad LBs from last year are goners.
Herzlich was graded as the Giants top ST'er (non-returner or kicker). Of course I'm going to say something with a straight face that is true.
I've already expressed that I have no great passion saying he has to stay on the team - I was arguing against those who say he's just another body on ST. It isn't true.
Unga-not sure what they saw in him in the first place.
I think they are both gone.
Not sure who stays.
Now, Goodson would make the team anyway, and it's not as though he was drafted just for specials (McGovern apparently liked him too). But the more Quinn influenced the fourth round pick, the less capital he figures to have left for other roster decisions.
So, with about $1.5MM in dead money, he's not a completely painless cut; but he's not a costly one either. And his replacement (Goodson/Sheppard/other) is paid for - and then some - by the savings from dumping him. Doesn't mean he's gone, just that he'll have to earn his way onto the roster.
Quote:
and I hope he is a permanent fixture in our LB corps but I don't really see it with him. I see a good player but I don't see that explosion. You can get by if you have great instincts, tackling ability and the ability to defeat blocks. Sy said that he views him best as a WILL but from all the press releases they are saying they view him more as a MIKE. We will see.
I read some comparisons to Antonio Pierce. I could be wrong but I never really saw Pierce as an explosive player either. There wasn't anything really physically, that stood out about him. He just always seemed to be in the right spot and was, generally speaking, a good tackler. He was just dependable and reliable and got the job done. I'm hopeful that Goodson can at least be that type of player.
I think Pierce is a good comparison regarding their skill set, both lack range going sideline to sideline.
They both have trouble with depth in coverage.
Keep in mind, AP was an UDFA when he came into the league.
I think Thomas sucks, hope he is cut. Casillas is not
much better, but he is better in coverage, and can play
ST's well. That's primarily what he did before he arrived at
the Metolands.
Quote:
is a good linebacker, but Sheppard is camp fodder.
He does nothing well, and seriously? Tackles to judge a player?
Bingo. How many of those tackles were within 8 yards of the LOS? A few years ago J. Williams was at the top of the tackle board leaders on this team, yet as I recall, many of his tackles were several yards down the field.
LOL, just saw this Pat, thanks for chiming in... Kelvin Sheppard 2015 Stats - 102 tackles / 13 for a loss which is a 12.8% TFL ratio, one of the best in the NFL last year.
Sheppard TFL Stat - ( New Window )
Are you sure you're reading that right?
It's slightly better than Herzlich who was at 11.8%. And Cooper Taylor at 12.5%. He had a lot more snaps than either. therefore a lot more total. Stats of this nature are NOT indicative of how to evaluate a player.
Think your sort was off.
Sheppard signed a vet min deal with 80k guaranteed. He's not who you think he is. His contract was nearly identical to Bobby Rainey's. He's camp fodder until proven otherwise.
Are you sure you're reading that right?
It's slightly better than Herzlich who was at 11.8%. And Cooper Taylor at 12.5%. He had a lot more snaps than either. therefore a lot more total. Stats of this nature are NOT indicative of how to evaluate a player.
Think your sort was off.
Sheppard signed a vet min deal with 80k guaranteed. He's not who you think he is. His contract was nearly identical to Bobby Rainey's. He's camp fodder until proven otherwise.
Are you serious? 13 TFL was one of the best in the NFL and among the highest percentage wise for anyone with over 100 tackles, if not the highest.
Moreover, I replied to Pat who chimed in that most of Sheppard's tackles were beyond the 8 yard mark, which was presumptuously incorrect. I finished with you on this point yesterday, so move along...
His TFL ratio ranked 31st among defenders with at least 50 tackles. Among players with at least 100 tackles, his ratio ranked second behind Mark Barron. That's a small population - 37 players, of whom nearly a third are safeties - but it's still not a bad stat for a vet-min signing. If nothing else, Sheppard upgrades the Giants' LB depth.
If Goodson can step in and tackle, the LB's might have gotten a lot better, even though the 2015 corps sucked
If Goodson can step in and tackle, the LB's might have gotten a lot better, even though the 2015 corps sucked
Boley and Pierce signed multi-year deals for big $$, Sheppard signed a 1-year vet min deal with 80k guaranteed.
I don't see it. I'd love to be wrong and have this guy be the second coming of Pierce but I think it's more likely he's cut before September 11.
Here is a note from Kratch on Sheppard:
I think he's a Jameel McClain / Keith Rivers type acquisition: he raises the floor at a couple of positions, but you don't particularly want him playing; a good OC and QB will prey on his deficiencies - particularly in coverage. On the bright side, unlike McClain and Rivers, he cost almost nothing.
If he resembles Antonio Pierce, it's the Antonio Pierce we watched futilely chasing Brian Westbrook.