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| Could Knicks move on Frank Vogel, a closet Phil Jackson fan?: There may be a new free-agent coach on the market with eyes on the Knicks job. Pacers coach Frank Vogel, who grew up in South Jersey an admirer of Phil Jackson, is on shaky ground after losing Game 7 on Sunday night in Toronto to seal a first-round playoff exit. -- New York Post |
Hence...Rambis remains at the top of his list.
Which is really awesome. If our goal is another tank year and lottery pick...
A lot would depend on if Melo is coming back and who we think we can sign. If you add a Batum or a Conley and Melo returns then this could be a good team and a coach like Vogel would make sense. If there is a chance Melo leaves and/or we dont think we can get a good starter then i dont see the point in bringing in a Vogel level coach.
That can't surprise you...
Miami would have to get rid of Whiteside Deng and wade to get durant
Durant, Westbrook, KP, Rolo, Grant, a high #1, and the Melo return are a better for than OKC. However, Durant and Westbrook wilt under the kid glove OKC press and I cant imagine that they're all that jazzed about Isola and Berman et al.
For the limitless number of teams that are supposedly interested in Batum, I wonder how many are at his door once Charlotte offers him a 5 year max. Same goes for Conley.
Maybe Minny would take Butler for Dieng, Lavine, and their first!
This whole thing is kind of ridiculous. Just get a good coach in here and fucking win games god dammit. If they win 40 next year and pick 13th so be it. If they win 45 even better. If they happen to blow chunks next year and win the top 3 lottery that's all well n good but there will be negative fallout from a season like that and more than likely the bad will outweigh the good unless the Knicks get incredibly lucky and land a legendary player in that draft.
Maybe Minny would take Butler for Dieng, Lavine, and their first!
what makes you think Rose won't have more drama with other teammates? He's a whiny bitch.
Maybe Minny would take Butler for Dieng, Lavine, and their first!
That's interesting but that also would make Melo a lesser-demanded option so it's a no go in my book. Idk why Chicago would get rid of him unless they go for an all out tank.
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He'll win too many games. We'll end up picking 11th or something like that.
This whole thing is kind of ridiculous. Just get a good coach in here and fucking win games god dammit. If they win 40 next year and pick 13th so be it. If they win 45 even better. If they happen to blow chunks next year and win the top 3 lottery that's all well n good but there will be negative fallout from a season like that and more than likely the bad will outweigh the good unless the Knicks get incredibly lucky and land a legendary player in that draft.
That sounds awfully like the plan the Knicks had in place for the last 15 years. Try adding as much marginal talent to win as many games. The one year they fail to do that they win 17 and land KP. Hmmm...
Don't forget the future of this team is KP and Galloway and Grant. Young players. Those guys need to grow and learn and the only way they grow is to win, even if it's a slow process. They've lost enough by now. The Knicks need to establish a winning culture here and soon.
IF the Knicks can win 40 games next season that likely means KP and Grant and Galloway are playing well. IF Melo is here he won't be able to do it alone.
Losing fucking blows. Rarely does anything good come from losing. I'm tired of it. If we pick 15th next season so be it. The Knicks would still own that pick. They'd own cap room and they'd have assets to use if and when they want to add more talent. They would be in fine shape. Right now the Knicks are a joke. If they win 20 games next season they will be an even bigger joke.
This isn't 2005. The Knicks have a franchise young player. Progress with that player, even if limited, can only be a good thing. Knicks need to show progress or else the whole thing will blow up and god knows what that can lead to.
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and break the teenage drama between him and Rose. Ideally, getting rid of Rose is the smarter thing to do, but no one is trading for him.
Maybe Minny would take Butler for Dieng, Lavine, and their first!
what makes you think Rose won't have more drama with other teammates? He's a whiny bitch.
They cant trade Rose. Plus Butler doesnt seemed well liked by his teammates. Noah has publicly stated that he prefers Rose to Butler.
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and break the teenage drama between him and Rose. Ideally, getting rid of Rose is the smarter thing to do, but no one is trading for him.
Maybe Minny would take Butler for Dieng, Lavine, and their first!
That's interesting but that also would make Melo a lesser-demanded option so it's a no go in my book. Idk why Chicago would get rid of him unless they go for an all out tank.
Butler has burned many bridges.
Throw Gibson or Mirotic in.
Rubio
Butler
Wiggins
Gibson or Mirotic
Towns
Thats a helluva starting 5. Bulls would only do it if they could land a top 2 pick I believe.
Rose
Lavine
Simmons/Ingram
Portis
Noah
Giddy up, lets go!
Grant isn't going to be a premier PG in the league, but with shot consistency I think he ticks all the boxes for what Phil is looking for in a guard.
Don't forget the future of this team is KP and Galloway and Grant. Young players. Those guys need to grow and learn and the only way they grow is to win, even if it's a slow process. They've lost enough by now. The Knicks need to establish a winning culture here and soon.
IF the Knicks can win 40 games next season that likely means KP and Grant and Galloway are playing well. IF Melo is here he won't be able to do it alone.
Losing fucking blows. Rarely does anything good come from losing. I'm tired of it. If we pick 15th next season so be it. The Knicks would still own that pick. They'd own cap room and they'd have assets to use if and when they want to add more talent. They would be in fine shape. Right now the Knicks are a joke. If they win 20 games next season they will be an even bigger joke.
This isn't 2005. The Knicks have a franchise young player. Progress with that player, even if limited, can only be a good thing. Knicks need to show progress or else the whole thing will blow up and god knows what that can lead to.
Well what's the plan to win if the odds suggest we aren't gonna land KD/Horford/Superstar? It's gonna be adding marginal talent, no way around that, if that truly is the plan.
It takes more than one major player to be a 50+ win team, let alone a contender. KP isn't one now and Melo is not gonna be one in just a few years (I'd argue he may not be anymore than a 2nd or even 3rd wheel on a contending team now). The way I see it is that we are in a fairly similar situation to what the T-wolves were in 2 years ago. Sure, they're not gonna land Andrew Wiggins with Melo, but a similar talent can be obtained if say Boston gets involved somehow. If that happens you land a top pick and tank for the next year.
Landing top young players by losing doesn't accomplish anything? Then why did the best established coach available go a bottom 4 team? Why did the hottest assistant coach scoff at Melo and go to a 17 win team?
The way I see it is that KP gives us a special advantage when it comes to tanking in a way Hinkie didn't have the luxury of. We can tank without implanting the stigma that we're intentionally losing to get a top pick. There's already a foundation in place, with building blocks available via the draft.
I even have a hard time seeing that a Conley/Batum type even would get the Knicks in the playoffs. That would most likely mean letting Williams, Afflalo, and Thomas walk. Not only is there still a major whole in the starting lineup, the bench is completely gone. The Knicks finished 12 games out of the playoffs. I have a hard time seeing how that roster wins 12 more games, even ignoring the fact that both Milwaukee and Orlando looked much, much better in the 2nd half of the season. Where the fuck does that get us? We're stuck with vets, capped out, and can't make the playoffs.
Grant isn't going to be a premier PG in the league, but with shot consistency I think he ticks all the boxes for what Phil is looking for in a guard.
Yeah, I don't know what to make of Gallo at this point, he's a tweener with an erratic shot. He's not very young for a 2nd year player, either. I'd still keep him in hopes that he becomes a rotational player.
Grant I have much higher hopes for. If he can get his shot down, I see a lot of Jrue Holiday in his game. If not, I think he can still generate offense off the bench in a worst case scenario.
Lavine is only 20. I wouldn't say he's a future superstar but he shot 39% from 3 and most of his efficiency stats have been bumped up from last year. I don't see him as a PG but he's the only real shooter on the team (Towns maybe another one). I can see him being a 20 PPG and 4 APG and 40% from 3 for the wolves over the next few years.
Not saying he's better or will be better than Butler, but flipping two young pieces in Lavine and Dieng will force them to play on Butler's timeline, rather than develop a corps of 4 players (+ whoever they pick this ear) that are on the same timeframe. Dieng the player is replaeable? Yes, but you aren't just flipping a good all around center you would be flipping a cost controlled player that they have the rights to keep for another 5-6 years.
Another note on LaVine... 33 games as a starter 17.3 points 2.8 boards 3.2 assists on 47% from the field 44% from 3. If anything I think he's on the brink of becoming an all-star caliber player. Will play all of next season as a 21 year old. Kris Dunn (a projected top 3-5 pick) is already 22 for comparison, Buddy Hield another projected top 5 pick is also 22. LaVine is a baby and already looks really good.
Regardless he's still a 20 year old. KP had a pretty subpar second half but I take it as a young player you're gonna have major downs. I'd be excited as a Minn fan if Lavine put that second half of the season up as a 25 year old, let alone 20.
This has been one of my points all year re Melo. Everyone who wants to make a splash cant sign KD. Only one team can. Horford isnt as good as Melo IMO, and in any event is likely to stay in Atlanta and can only sign with one team. Then what? LeBron isnt moving. Drummond and Beal are restricted. Derozen has said he will resign. Pau and Gasol (PTO) seem likely to stay. I wouldnt sign Dwight to a max deal for a ton of reasons (attitude, health, style). That's your Hoops Hype top 9 UFAs; after is Conley, Whiteside, Parson, Barnes (RFA), Dirk, Rondo, TD, Batum, AlJeff).
If you need a star scoring player, it's really KD or bust. Melo's value on July 4th is going to be higher than it is right now, and his motivation to leave will probably go up too.
Another note on LaVine... 33 games as a starter 17.3 points 2.8 boards 3.2 assists on 47% from the field 44% from 3. If anything I think he's on the brink of becoming an all-star caliber player. Will play all of next season as a 21 year old. Kris Dunn (a projected top 3-5 pick) is already 22 for comparison, Buddy Hield another projected top 5 pick is also 22. LaVine is a baby and already looks really good.
Well one thing is Thibs basically controls all the decision making as well. And Butler may be his favorite player ever. Lavine lackadaisical defense will not be tolerated. If you throw in Gibson and the Bulls 1st round pick, its not an absurd deal.
And im not sure where you were going with KP having a poor second half, but KP has an extremely unique skill set. You arent going to find guys with his potential often. Lavine has a much more common skill set.
"The [bigger guards] are always trying to post me up, he said. I just have to fight em, get em off the block. Then, on the offensive end, try to run em."
If anything I suspect Thibs turns him into a very strong (at least average) defensive player.
Yeah I think people will get mistaken easily with Bender. He plays pretty differently. I'd still take him as a top 5 pick but would expect something different than the KP projections. I was originally very down on him, but I see a good role for him down the line. He is going to be a project. Unlike KP I don't think he has any prominent skills that he can utilize night in night out right away. I see his potential mainly as a run-and-jump center down the line that runs the floor very well and can hit an outside shot on occasion. I see him as like a 14 and 10 guy down the line, which isn't impressive but for how shallow this draft is, it should make him a top pick.
Agree 100%. Which is why I love Valentine. I have no illusions of him being a "big 3" caliber talent but I think he's going to be a strong role player on a good team and in particular would fit nicely in a Spurs/Hawks/triangle offense.
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role players. Simmons and Ingram are the only potential "Big 3" caliber players. Case can be made for Murray and Brown as well.
Agree 100%. Which is why I love Valentine. I have no illusions of him being a "big 3" caliber talent but I think he's going to be a strong role player on a good team and in particular would fit nicely in a Spurs/Hawks/triangle offense.
Haha I saw him at a bar here about a week or two ago. He was pretty wasted, seemed like a pretty fun guy to be around.
@WojVerticalNBA
Larry Bird set his annual end-of-season news conference for Thursday. He hasn't informed Frank Vogel of future, sources tell @TheVertical.
Frank would be a perfect fit anywhere. He is so adaptable, so even keel. Frank never gets too high, never gets too low, said Pitino, head coach at Louisville. Frank could coach anywhere. He could coach Sacramento. He could coach New York.
Hes a basketball junkie who puts everything he has into the game. Hes been around the block and hes adaptable to any situation.
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Whose quote is that?
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"Frank Vogel will be taking his talents elsewhere, but probably not South Beach."
Whose quote is that?
No one's quote. I made it up because it's ridiculous that you'd need a press conference to announce the fate of your coach prior to actually telling him.
This is the obvious move, but knowing the Knicks' luck there's no chance of it happening.
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In comment 12944728 Aspano! said:
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"Frank Vogel will be taking his talents elsewhere, but probably not South Beach."
Whose quote is that?
No one's quote. I made it up because it's ridiculous that you'd need a press conference to announce the fate of your coach prior to actually telling him.
Oh haha. That went over my head.
It's crazy to me that Bird didn't have these scenarios planned out with the possibility of the 7 seed losing to a 2 seed in mind.
owner interference? Not like it hasn't happened before. We already know the star player wants Phil to open up the search.
Maybe to appease Melo? Melo has been clear he wants a "search". If we are wrong about Phil wanting Melo to ask out, but he wants to keep Rambis, wouldn't appeasing Melo's "true search" request make sense?
To Aspano's point, I think the arrow is pointing more towards Rambis as AC than HC, which is a relief.
I think the only reason it hasn't happened yet is the public backlash to Phil heavily dropping hints. Rambis has done nothing to get the job without a fair search. Even Melo has spoken out about the need to be a process to find the next coach.
To Aspano's point, I think the arrow is pointing more towards Rambis as AC than HC, which is a relief.
Not sure I agree with the last point. So far we haven't seen any indication Phil is going to speak to/consider anyone but Blatt or Rambis. So unless you are 100% convinced Blatt is the guy, Rambis odds seem higher than anyone elses.
It seems like it's more people picking and choosing what reports to listen to to fit their own narrative.
It seems like it's more people picking and choosing what reports to listen to to fit their own narrative.
Totally disagree. What reports have anyone but Rambis as the first choice? You make it sound like it's 50/50 and people are reporting Phil is going to speak to XYZ. IF Phil wants Melo to stay (not an impossibility) but knows Melo wants a coaching search then wouldn't waiting + speaking to Blatt make more sense than simply hiring Rambis on the spot? Phil is so amazing at hiding his intentions that his secret "targets" aren't being leaked? When will he start speaking to other people if that's the case?
The Rambis-wall is made of cement.
On March 17, Chris Herring of the Wall Street Journal wrote that the coach has visions of the 73 big man playing small forward:
Rambis has said that due to Porzingiss athleticism and versatility, he could eventually see him at the 3-spot some, referring to the small-forward position. That was days after Rambis said he wanted Porzingis to sprint down court after opponents misses more frequently in hopes of getting more post-up opportunities.
A paragraph later, Herring (thankfully) destroyed this idea:
Looking for ways to play bigger lineups by putting Porzingis at small forward, and to get him more post-up looks (instead of center Robin Lopez getting them) seems a bit backward in todays NBA, where teams typically look to use players with Porzingiss skill set at center because of how much space it requires defenses to cover along the perimeter. Playing him at small forward, and using more traditional bigs at power forward and center, negates that strategy.
On Monday, Porzingis announced that he was passing on playing for the Latvian Olympic team, which was a tough pill to swallow.
Take a look at his reason, which he explained in his exit interview last month:
Not only putting on weight and being big, but being more athletic, quicker, being able to guard smaller guys when we switch. I want to be the guy who can be last quarter on the court as the 5-man and be able to guard everybody and switch with everybody. Thats how basketball is these days.
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If Im Vogel, shouldnt I be a little concerned that Rambis played a part in Fisher losing his job?
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Melo said in an interview that he hasn't even spoken to Phil. And meanwhile Phil is tweeting about Thai restaurants in Sioux City.
It seems like it's more people picking and choosing what reports to listen to to fit their own narrative.
Totally disagree. What reports have anyone but Rambis as the first choice? You make it sound like it's 50/50 and people are reporting Phil is going to speak to XYZ. IF Phil wants Melo to stay (not an impossibility) but knows Melo wants a coaching search then wouldn't waiting + speaking to Blatt make more sense than simply hiring Rambis on the spot? Phil is so amazing at hiding his intentions that his secret "targets" aren't being leaked? When will he start speaking to other people if that's the case?
Yes, I would say that Phil has been damn good at hiding his intentions, and that's most likely the case now.
- No one saw the JR/Shumpert trade happening until it happened.
- No one saw the KP pick happening. Lots of people were saying Justise Winslow or Trey Lyles. There were reports of pretty much everyone being a possibility.
- No one saw the signing of O'Quinn.
- Phil's response to Walton being "interviewed" was "No one has been interviewed. No one has said no."
All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to lock in Rambis as the next coach. He was the assistant, and currently works with Phil, and Phil said that he likes Rambis, which we knew. It could very well be that Rambis IS the favorite in Phil's mind. But there's no evidence to suggest that he's a lock. And the longer it takes for any announcement, the less of a chance there is for him to be hired. If Phil was trying to pretend like there was a search, he could've sat down with people like Brooks and Karl, and then just hire Rambis.
oh definitely. Quite a few reasons to avoid this job...before you even get to the awful owner!
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If Rambis is so strong running the triangle and Vogel such a poor offensive coach... hire Vogel and make Rambis AC #Knicks
If Im Vogel, shouldnt I be a little concerned that Rambis played a part in Fisher losing his job?
If that's the case then shouldn't Blatt feel the same way? I mean I wouldn't want Rambis back at all but I think it's a foregone conclusion "best" case is he's only the assistant. You honestly see a scenario where Rambis is no longer with the Knicks at all?
Phil talked to a waiter in Iowa!
That is why the narrative that he is the front runner doesn't make sense to me, you can say well Phil wants to make it look like its search but do you really think Phil gives a shit about how it looks?
If rambis was the guy he would of been hired already Phil doesn't give a shit about how fans and media will perceive it
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In comment 12944800 DanMetroMan said:
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If Rambis is so strong running the triangle and Vogel such a poor offensive coach... hire Vogel and make Rambis AC #Knicks
If Im Vogel, shouldnt I be a little concerned that Rambis played a part in Fisher losing his job?
If that's the case then shouldn't Blatt feel the same way? I mean I wouldn't want Rambis back at all but I think it's a foregone conclusion "best" case is he's only the assistant. You honestly see a scenario where Rambis is no longer with the Knicks at all?
My point wasnt exclusive to Blatt. Though I think Blatt has a less-strong hand to deal. Vogel will get another NBA job at a premium salary.
I could see Rambis not being retained. If the new coach says "look, it needs to be my lockerroom and I cant have the old coach in there" then maybe Rambis goes. Maybe Rambis doesnt want an AC job after being IHC (unlikely). Most likely is that he is in the org in some capacity though.
That is why the narrative that he is the front runner doesn't make sense to me, you can say well Phil wants to make it look like its search but do you really think Phil gives a shit about how it looks?
If rambis was the guy he would of been hired already Phil doesn't give a shit about how fans and media will perceive it
The only person who he has to care about as far as perception is Dolan, who is a factor. It's normal for him to be a factor, because he's paying Phil's first coach a ton of money to be on vacation.
No he didn't. Both Kerr and Walton came out and said that it wasn't an interview.
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"couldn't" interview Walton at the time. That would have been tampering. Why is his quote so interesting? He had to say that.
No he didn't. Both Kerr and Walton came out and said that it wasn't an interview.
Huh? He was taking a jab at the reports Walton turned them down. It came out he spoke to Walton so what else was he going to say? Walton and Kerr are friends of Phil's. He didn't offer Walton the job flat out? Maybe that's true maybe it's not but not really sure why his comment was all that interesting.