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Draft thoughts and such

Colin@gbn : 5/3/2016 2:50 pm
Afternoon guys: Hoping everyone is well into decompression mode after the weekend. The break did give us a chance to do a little digging and a little thinking and we posted what we believe is pretty close to the timeline surrounding the Apple pick based on what we were able to pull together from several sources over at the GBN for those that haven't seen it. Plus we we have thots on what looks like it could have been a pretty good haul for the Giants. Let me know if you have any comments etc. Here's the link. Meanwhile, just 360 days until 2017!! Hang in there ...
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What I Don't Get RE: Floyd  
Jim in Tampa : 5/3/2016 4:32 pm : link
Colin says that the Giants asked Tampa what it would take to go from 10 to 9 and Tampa wanted a 3rd RD pick. Yet they settled on a 4th RD pick from Chicago, even though that pick was worse than the Giants 4th RD pick. Plus with the Chicago trade Tampa was going from 9 to 11 instead of 9 to 10.

Why wouldn't Tampa have just come back to the Giants to get THEIR 4th RD pick instead of Chicago's 4th?
RE: What I Don't Get RE: Floyd  
Coach Mason : 5/3/2016 4:35 pm : link
In comment 12943385 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
Colin says that the Giants asked Tampa what it would take to go from 10 to 9 and Tampa wanted a 3rd RD pick. Yet they settled on a 4th RD pick from Chicago, even though that pick was worse than the Giants 4th RD pick. Plus with the Chicago trade Tampa was going from 9 to 11 instead of 9 to 10.

Why wouldn't Tampa have just come back to the Giants to get THEIR 4th RD pick instead of Chicago's 4th?


Only way would be if they would have rather dealt with chicago then us unless we paid a signifigantly higher price. Bad blood?
RE: What I Don't Get RE: Floyd  
JPinstripes : 5/3/2016 4:41 pm : link
In comment 12943385 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
Colin says that the Giants asked Tampa what it would take to go from 10 to 9 and Tampa wanted a 3rd RD pick. Yet they settled on a 4th RD pick from Chicago, even though that pick was worse than the Giants 4th RD pick. Plus with the Chicago trade Tampa was going from 9 to 11 instead of 9 to 10.

Why wouldn't Tampa have just come back to the Giants to get THEIR 4th RD pick instead of Chicago's 4th?


Jim, perhaps pick 11 has a lot more value then pick 10. I believe picks 11+ have an 5th year option on the player selected as opposed to 1-10 has only 4 year contract. Also the slot money is a lot less pick 11+ versus 1-10.
RE: RE: What I Don't Get RE: Floyd  
ron mexico : 5/3/2016 4:43 pm : link
In comment 12943399 JPinstripes said:
Quote:
In comment 12943385 Jim in Tampa said:


Quote:


Colin says that the Giants asked Tampa what it would take to go from 10 to 9 and Tampa wanted a 3rd RD pick. Yet they settled on a 4th RD pick from Chicago, even though that pick was worse than the Giants 4th RD pick. Plus with the Chicago trade Tampa was going from 9 to 11 instead of 9 to 10.

Why wouldn't Tampa have just come back to the Giants to get THEIR 4th RD pick instead of Chicago's 4th?



Jim, perhaps pick 11 has a lot more value then pick 10. I believe picks 11+ have an 5th year option on the player selected as opposed to 1-10 has only 4 year contract. Also the slot money is a lot less pick 11+ versus 1-10.


You are half right

They both have 5 year options but the 11th pick comes at a lower price

Great stuff as always Colin  
sjnyfan : 5/3/2016 4:45 pm : link
Also, this is my early entry for Subject line of the year
RE: RE: RE: What I Don't Get RE: Floyd  
JPinstripes : 5/3/2016 4:47 pm : link
In comment 12943403 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 12943399 JPinstripes said:


Quote:


In comment 12943385 Jim in Tampa said:


Quote:


Colin says that the Giants asked Tampa what it would take to go from 10 to 9 and Tampa wanted a 3rd RD pick. Yet they settled on a 4th RD pick from Chicago, even though that pick was worse than the Giants 4th RD pick. Plus with the Chicago trade Tampa was going from 9 to 11 instead of 9 to 10.

Why wouldn't Tampa have just come back to the Giants to get THEIR 4th RD pick instead of Chicago's 4th?



Jim, perhaps pick 11 has a lot more value then pick 10. I believe picks 11+ have an 5th year option on the player selected as opposed to 1-10 has only 4 year contract. Also the slot money is a lot less pick 11+ versus 1-10.



You are half right

They both have 5 year options but the 11th pick comes at a lower price


Thanks for that Ron.
Colin  
WillieYoung : 5/3/2016 5:53 pm : link
GBN used to cover the Giants regularly and then you decided to concentrate on the draft and recommended your followers to come over here. Do you remember when that was? That's when I started lurking here but I have no idea when it was.
Colin  
allstarjim : 5/3/2016 6:09 pm : link
I do proofreading and some light writing professionally. For a nominal fee I can proofread your work for you. Let me know.
RE: What I Don't Get RE: Floyd  
therealmf : 5/3/2016 6:59 pm : link
In comment 12943385 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
Colin says that the Giants asked Tampa what it would take to go from 10 to 9 and Tampa wanted a 3rd RD pick. Yet they settled on a 4th RD pick from Chicago, even though that pick was worse than the Giants 4th RD pick. Plus with the Chicago trade Tampa was going from 9 to 11 instead of 9 to 10.

Why wouldn't Tampa have just come back to the Giants to get THEIR 4th RD pick instead of Chicago's 4th?


If you were Tampa and had an offer for a 4th and the Giants asked what did you want, would your first response be a 4th? No, start high and maybe negotiate. Giants didn't pursue it.
RE: RE: Thanks for the write-up Colin......  
Simms11 : 5/3/2016 7:30 pm : link
In comment 12943331 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 12943248 Simms11 said:


Quote:


feeling great about this draft the more I read and added insight into the first round drama was very interesting. I do have a question however, you indicated that Hargreaves was faster then Apple....I thought Apple was faster then Hargreaves? In fact I thought one of the knocks on Hargreaves was the fact that he wasn't fast?!



Apple has excellent top-end downfield speed. Hargreaves doesn't. However, Hargreaves has jitterbug feet. He seems uniquely suited to match up with the smaller, shifty WRs


I see how he meant it now. It was a little confusing at first. Thanks
Great job  
5BowlsSoon : 5/3/2016 7:40 pm : link
Maybe you give us your thoughts on our UDFA, because quite frankly, I'm very intrigued with a half of dozen of them too.
great writeup  
mfsd : 5/3/2016 7:48 pm : link
interesting theory/analysis of what went on in the 1st round. Especially choosing Apple over Hargreaves bc of his size
RE: Terrific stuff...  
drkenneth : 5/3/2016 8:02 pm : link
In comment 12943284 Chris684 said:
Quote:
This needs to be pinned.

They made the right call standing pat. They couldnt have topped the Titans deal with Cleveland, and the Tampa Bay trade would have been much worse.

This is a far cry from the running around like chickens without heads as their pick approached as has been portrayed by the media that the moronic fans seem to gobble.

Looks like Floyd was their #1 guy (at the position they wanted to address first) and when the Myles Jack knee situation/media leaks started putting pressure on them they tried to throw out a red herring (Conklin) and/or move-up. When neither worked they moved on to their best guy at the next position they wanted to address.

Text book.


Well done. You're on fire today.
More Random thaughts  
Colin@gbn : 5/3/2016 8:14 pm : link
Thanks for pinning Eric ... we owe you one

Note re the trade talk with TB for the 9th pick; first the Giants 4th round pick was #109; the Bears traded the Bucs #106 three earlier than the Giants pick. after a series of other trades Chicago actually ended up back at 113, but 106 was the traded pick. In fact, its not clear that the Giants countered TB at all and likely opted to take their chances that Floyd would still be there because they really didn't want to give up any picks and felt they had a pretty good consolation prize in Apple if Floyd was gone.

Willie: I am not sure but it was in the early 2000s when we opted to drop the original Giants Report. Right now I am seriously considering reviving it because bottom line Giants football is what we really love.

And thanks for the offer allstarjim. May have to take you up. Fact is I was an analyst/editor with the national stats agency up here for over 30 years and after having read and reread some of the most boring marerial you can imagine I just can't bring myself to reread stuff, although I keep telling myself I should!!
Colin! Re Coprich  
battttles : 5/3/2016 8:18 pm : link
Any thoughts on Coprich's chances to stick? Emory Hunt had him ranked as the #2 rb in the class. It's crowded back there, but he seems to have the tools for the NFL (not sure we can say as much for Andre Williams).
Also, to state the obvious,  
CT Charlie : 5/3/2016 8:23 pm : link
if we'd traded up for Floyd, and given up a 3rd or a 4th, we wouldn't have both Thompson and Goodson. Who knows whether either of them will be an impact player, but right now most of us would probably prefer Apple+(Thompson & Goodson) to Floyd and just one of those guys.
RE: Also, to state the obvious,  
mfsd : 5/3/2016 8:44 pm : link
In comment 12943709 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
if we'd traded up for Floyd, and given up a 3rd or a 4th, we wouldn't have both Thompson and Goodson. Who knows whether either of them will be an impact player, but right now most of us would probably prefer Apple+(Thompson & Goodson) to Floyd and just one of those guys.


Yup, bingo. Maybe Floyd turns out to be all-world and we regret it, but I'm OK with the Giants deciding we needed to preserve our other picks rather than trading up. Giants need several players, we are more than one impact player away
Rook FAs  
Colin@gbn : 5/3/2016 9:26 pm : link
Never really thought this draft was all that deep but given the quality of the guys that were available in the later rounds and now post-draft free agency is starting to tell me different. Again we are talking undrafted guys here who didn't get selected for a reason or reasons, but the Giants have at least a half dozen who have at least a chance of making the team. In fact, Coprich and Roger Lewis were both eminently draftable but may have been passed over for off-field stuff. Coprich, who I believe is currently on probation for selling some pot to an undercover cop, reminds me just a little bit of Ahmad Bradshaw. He's not all that big or smooth, but he has decent speed and quickness and runs hard all the time; he's also a half decent receiver and one would think could give Williams/Darkwa a run for that 4th RB spot. For his part, Lewis plead guilty to a charge of felony rape a few years back but never did jail time (suggesting that maybe he was involved with an underage girlfriend or some such). He's got decent size, and plays more quick than fast, but he seems to be one of those guys who just get open and catch just about everything thrown their way. Both Coprich and Lewis were super productive playing lesser competition. Also thing that Greg Milhouse has a shot at the 4th DT spot; again he's not real big but is very quick and relentless for an interior defender. Also like Mike Rose and Andrew Adams.
I didn't want high ceiling low floor pick at 10  
Bama Bish : 5/3/2016 10:08 pm : link
Neither Floyd nor Apple. Big talented nasty young bookend tackles would have suited me just fine. Give me the smokescreen. If you wanted to bet the proverbial 1st round farm, shit pick Tunsil.

Of course the rest of the draft went beautifully, so any change in the 1st possibly messes up the who thing. I'll take what we have, but Apple better work the fuck out, REESE!

I see the thinking, it just better work out.
IMO the strength of our first was rounds 2 -4  
PatersonPlank : 5/3/2016 10:17 pm : link
I absolutely expect Shepard, Thompson, and Goodson to be starters quickly. Apple will be a good player for us, but it's arguable if he was the best pick at #10. The following 3 were all great picks.
first = draft  
PatersonPlank : 5/3/2016 10:18 pm : link
.
Affirmation that the Giants  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/3/2016 10:43 pm : link
were never inclined to take a RT at #10. File this away fellas.

RE: I didn't want high ceiling low floor pick at 10  
Mark C : 5/3/2016 11:13 pm : link
In comment 12943924 Bama Bish said:
Quote:
Neither Floyd nor Apple. Big talented nasty young bookend tackles would have suited me just fine. Give me the smokescreen. If you wanted to bet the proverbial 1st round farm, shit pick Tunsil.

Of course the rest of the draft went beautifully, so any change in the 1st possibly messes up the who thing. I'll take what we have, but Apple better work the fuck out, REESE!

I see the thinking, it just better work out.


The bottom line is well-stated in this write-up: You DO NOT spend the number ten pick in the draft on a RG. The LT on this team for the next 6-10 years was picked in the first round of last year's draft. Why is it so hard to understand this? How fucking stupid would Jerry Reese be if he picked the same player with a top ten pick in two consecutive drafts?
Well we've seen time and time again how Jerry's projects workout.  
Bama Bish : 5/3/2016 11:18 pm : link
A team with next to no drafted talent on it. 2-6 are players from the word go. Apple is a "high upside" project. Unfinished. Projected to hopefully be a finished product. He better damn work out.
thanks..  
prdave73 : 5/3/2016 11:18 pm : link
Good read.
Tunsil might be All Pro for 10 years  
xman : 5/3/2016 11:18 pm : link
Apple not a chance. But we can't draft pot heads.
RE: Tunsil might be All Pro for 10 years  
allstarjim : 5/4/2016 12:31 am : link
In comment 12944007 xman said:
Quote:
Apple not a chance. But we can't draft pot heads.


Apple not a chance? How much have you seen of Apple? Do you realize he was a starter on a national championship team at 19 years old?
xman  
BestFeature : 5/4/2016 12:32 am : link
I love the fact that you so arrogantly proclaim that like you have any clue that Apple doesn't have a chance of that. Seriously get over yourself.
I think its you  
xman : 5/4/2016 12:43 am : link
who is sounding pretty arrogant and ugly.
great stuff Colin -  
Del Shofner : 5/4/2016 1:09 am : link
thanks for posting.
The Giants have stacked their OL with the 9th pick of the 2015 draft,  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 5/4/2016 1:20 am : link
the 19th pick of the 2013 draft, and the 43rd pick of the 2014 draft. It's possible to put too much money into the offensive line. Better to find a veteran like Shaun O'Hara to hold down a position for a few years and provide some veteran experience.
Regarding Floyd  
HugeS : 5/4/2016 1:21 am : link
That's interesting that Floyd was the main target all along. Would have thought he was the smokescreen and Conklin was the target given the high bust rate of "tweener" type players like Floyd in a 4-3 system. Also suspected that the McAdoo/Conklin Michigan St. connection might have factored in as well as the fact that Conklin just seemed like a Giants type of draft pick. Its possible both the Giants and Floyd dodged a bullet there as Floyd should have a much better chance to thrive in a Fangio defense while Apple will have a much greater impact for us if he can successfully man that Giant void we have at slot corner.
If this is a comfort to anyone, I picked up ESPN's draft issue for the  
SB 42 and 46 and ? : 5/4/2016 1:31 am : link
first time and saw a Mel and Todd article raising red flags over two players the Giants could have wound up with.

Mel on Floyd: "I can see Georgia OLB Leonard Floyd as high as No. 10 to the Giants, but I question if his game lacks power. He didn't bench at either the combine or his pro day, so there's speculation about his strength. No question it's a concern." Both agreed that he was explosive rushing the passer.

On Hargreaves: Todd: "It's a bit alarming to see Vernon Hargreaves, the top cover corner in this year's draft, standing just 5-foot-10 with arms measuring 30 and 5/8 inches. That's close to red-flag territory."

Mel: "And when you factor in an average 40 time (4.50), I actually think he has fallen out of the top ten."
Thanks Colin  
bc4life : 5/4/2016 1:57 am : link
What would you have thought about Floyd with the 10th pick?
Good read,  
giantgiantfan : 5/4/2016 2:12 am : link
really enjoyed that. Thanks for posting this. With that said, a few typos exist in that piece. You might want to give it a once over.
I kind of suspected the Giants wouldn't want to keep  
chris r : 5/4/2016 5:34 am : link
pumping resources into the OL. You can't really build a well balanced roster that way. At some point you're going to have to get a couple of bargains on the line to play with your top pics/big money FAs.
I'd be interested in  
Reb8thVA : 5/4/2016 7:49 am : link
Hitdog's impression of this interpretation
Reb, it wouldn't be a surprise, though  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 5/4/2016 8:11 am : link
Fits to type - Jerry Reese loves him some long pass rushers who can still grow into their bodies.
RE: Tunsil might be All Pro for 10 years  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/4/2016 8:33 am : link
In comment 12944007 xman said:
Quote:
Apple not a chance. But we can't draft pot heads.


He has just as much chance of being a bust as being an all pro.

Every single year these offensive linemen get pumped up as can't miss cornerstones, and then you look back three years later, and they're on the verge of losing their jobs.

Luke Joeckel - nope
Eric Fisher - barely above water
Greg Robinson - nope

All three were "can't miss" stars until they actually played.
RE: RE: Tunsil might be All Pro for 10 years  
Victor in CT : 5/4/2016 8:39 am : link
In comment 12944139 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 12944007 xman said:


Quote:


Apple not a chance. But we can't draft pot heads.



He has just as much chance of being a bust as being an all pro.

Every single year these offensive linemen get pumped up as can't miss cornerstones, and then you look back three years later, and they're on the verge of losing their jobs.

Luke Joeckel - nope
Eric Fisher - barely above water
Greg Robinson - nope

All three were "can't miss" stars until they actually played.


Exactly. There were a number of reports of scouts sating that Tunsil was a bust waiting to happen. And a lot of people like Apple.
Great  
AcidTest : 5/4/2016 9:15 am : link
stuff Colin.

I am also an editor and proofreader. I can definitely improve the quality of your work product.

I am an attorney, and was a member of the Law Review and an award winning author in law school. I have years of experience writing and editing action alerts, legislation, press releases, publications, and talking points. I have performance reviews that specifically cite my editing abilities. I am also the author of a critically acclaimed book that has received many positive reviews on Amazon.
Perkins pick  
ColHowPepper : 5/4/2016 9:23 am : link
first, great stuff, Colin, thank you.

Perkins receives a lot of nice commentary for his all around talent, vision, quickness, and elusiveness (avoidance of hits and YA contact), etc. And no doubt he is fun to watch in the clips I've seen posted.

My question is whether playing behind the UCLA line is going to prove a good sample of what he might be capable of in the NFL. It looked to me, in almost all the clips featuring Perkins, that the UCLA OL was utterly dominant against the opposing DL. Either its OL had pushed the DL three or more yards off the LOS by the time Perkins took the handoff and was approaching LOS, or there was a very clean hole through which to run. Don't get me wrong: Perkins saw the holes and burst through them beautifully, and some of the holes were a bit tight, but they were clean.

When over the past four or more years have we seen the Giants' OL capable of that and what does that inadequacy portend for Perkins being able to show his strengths?
RE: Terrific stuff...  
dg901 : 5/4/2016 10:00 am : link
In comment 12943284 Chris684 said:
Quote:
This needs to be pinned.

They made the right call standing pat. They couldnt have topped the Titans deal with Cleveland, and the Tampa Bay trade would have been much worse.

This is a far cry from the running around like chickens without heads as their pick approached as has been portrayed by the media that the moronic fans seem to gobble.

Looks like Floyd was their #1 guy (at the position they wanted to address first) and when the Myles Jack knee situation/media leaks started putting pressure on them they tried to throw out a red herring (Conklin) and/or move-up. When neither worked they moved on to their best guy at the next position they wanted to address.

Text book.

Unfortunately, there isn't a lot to be pumped about regarding our #10 pick. I sure hope EA is a stud and is a differencemaker from day 1 but, I won't hold my breath. There was a huge drop in need/talent after pick#9. With the talent still available, I personally would have preferred Lawson/Doctson or even Decker. I hope my lack of football-talent acumen is born-out by EA's performance on the field.
Colin ...  
Beer Man : 5/4/2016 12:27 pm : link
Thanks. This was a very interesting read. I guess the lesson from the whole experience was that if the team really wanted Leonard Floyd, they should have kept their big mouths shut. The Bears still may have traded up out of speculation, but we'll never know. With all the leaks, the Giants shot themselves in the foot (although Apple may turn into a great player).
RE: ^ lmao!  
sam the rifle : 5/4/2016 9:38 pm : link
In comment 12943215 David in LA said:
Quote:
I thought this was about Annie Apple too.


I LOVE Annie Apple, fantastic lady, fantastic mom!
RE: Annie Apple hates draft thots  
NYDCBlue : 5/8/2016 7:55 am : link
In comment 12943209 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
...


I only came for the thots! Where are the thots at? I was promised thots! :)
Heck, why am I typing so much, I am going to need both hands for all the thots....
Agree to disagree  
XBRONX : 5/8/2016 10:01 am : link
Sy mentioned that Apple has no physical presence in press coverage. Really, Dave Te Thomas quote,"Proving to be one of the most physical cornerbacks in college, he jammed/rerouted his main pass coverage assignments away from 38 incomplete passes last season, the second-highest total in the NCAA FBS ranks."
RE: Agree to disagree  
Klaatu : 5/8/2016 10:11 am : link
In comment 12949872 XBRONX said:
Quote:
Sy mentioned that Apple has no physical presence in press coverage. Really, Dave Te Thomas quote,"Proving to be one of the most physical cornerbacks in college, he jammed/rerouted his main pass coverage assignments away from 38 incomplete passes last season, the second-highest total in the NCAA FBS ranks."


?

Sy wrote this about Apple:

Quote:
Apple is more physical than you would think initially, too. This guy can get up at the point of attack and really alter guys with the confidence that he can catch up if initially beat.
Sy quote  
XBRONX : 5/8/2016 10:17 am : link
he could really commit to getting stronger and improve his press presence and technique, you could have something special here.
Here's what Sy said about Apple:  
Klaatu : 5/8/2016 10:43 am : link
Quote:
Third year sophomore entry. Former top tier high school recruit started 27 of 28 games for the Buckeyes. Apple has the tools and has shown enough performance to make coaches believe he can be a top tier cover corner in the NFL. The height and length in combination with his loose hips and quick feet make him a threat against any kind of wide receiver. He showed the ability to make plays on the ball and has the aggression to consistently get involved in the action. Apple needs to clean up certain man coverage technique issues in addition to more understanding of pre-snap reads. Teams will take a gamble on his upside but all signs point towards him being a very productive corner in time.

*Apple is an under the radar guy when it comes to who NYG will be taking at #10 overall. I think Reese and company will like him a lot, enough to warrant that pick. Apple has more upside than any of the CBs in this class and I don’t consider him far off from Hargreaves at all. He has more size and speed with very easy lower body movement. Apple is more physical than you would think initially, too. This guy can get up at the point of attack and really alter guys with the confidence that he can catch up if initially beat. He needs technique work, however. He gets flagged a lot and got away with even more in the games I scouted. His hands are all over the receiver and I’m not sure he trusts his technique enough to rely on his lower half completely. Again, really high upside here but may not be an early contributor.
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