[virtue signaling]Now, I have no particular problem with Caitlyn Jenner,[/virtue signaling], but I really didn't need another several months of controversy to sift through, not when our plates will be full with the DJT candidacy.
And obviously, it's not even about her - just the people who now ache to get offended every time she deigns to leave the house, but you can't help but get the sense that she's courting their ire. Also her prerogative - but the rest of us have to suffer for the resulting backlash.
Personally, I fall somewhere in between this and not acknowledging him as a female. Even if I can get past forgetting about Bruce, I still can't call him a her, because he is a male.
I don't doubt their sincerity, but the sincerity of mentally ill people really doesn't mean much.
There are people who cut off fully functioning limbs because they strongly believe that they were supposed to be crippled. I fail to see any meaningful distinction between that and Caitlyn Jenner.
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Most of them are men. About half are in Germany and Switzerland, but he knows of a few in Canada. Most crave an amputation or paralysis, though he has interviewed one person who wants his penis removed. Another wants to be blind.
Many people, like One Hand Jason, arrange “accidents” to help achieve the goal. One dropped an incredibly heavy concrete block on his legs — an attempt to injure himself so bad an amputation would be necessary. But doctors saved the leg. He limps, but it’s not the disability he wanted.
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Wow, thanks for posting this. There really are some absurd groups of people out there.
No, "she" didn't cash in on "her" celebrity status as the Olympic champion in men's decathlon. Caitlyn Jenner didn't win the gold medal in men's decathlon, Bruce Jenner did, what with the being a man and all. This kind of historical revisionism would be amusing if it weren't so Orwellian.
Personally, I fall somewhere in between this and not acknowledging him as a female. Even if I can get past forgetting about Bruce, I still can't call him a her, because he is a male.
I agree with this. If I were with a friend and someone he knew came up to us that was clearly a guy dressed as a women and I was introduced to him as Mary I would associate with that person as Mary and if talking about him would refer to him as Mary.
When I think of Jenner I still think of watching him participate in and winning the gold in the decathlon in 1976
And having never watched or followed any of those Kardashian show or spectacle second to the Olympics I probably associate him with Battle of the Network Stars
Is this a joke or serious? Can't tell.
I don't doubt their sincerity, but the sincerity of mentally ill people really doesn't mean much.
There are people who cut off fully functioning limbs because they strongly believe that they were supposed to be crippled. I fail to see any meaningful distinction between that and Caitlyn Jenner.
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Most of them are men. About half are in Germany and Switzerland, but he knows of a few in Canada. Most crave an amputation or paralysis, though he has interviewed one person who wants his penis removed. Another wants to be blind.
Many people, like One Hand Jason, arrange “accidents” to help achieve the goal. One dropped an incredibly heavy concrete block on his legs — an attempt to injure himself so bad an amputation would be necessary. But doctors saved the leg. He limps, but it’s not the disability he wanted.
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Some of us are simply born that way. Female brain in a male body or vice-versa.
They are everywhere, and as America is becoming more accepting, they are beginning to show their true numbers.
As crazy as this country has gotten over the last decades, this is one thing that actually IS Progressing - LGBT rights being recognized. Good for us.
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
Bullshit. If Bruce was killed in a car accident and was in the morgue. Their assessment would be a deceased male. Science says he is a he....period. It has NOTHING to do with what you identify with. What if Bruce identified as woman decades ago and tried to enter the women's events in the Olympics? Wouldn't fly right?
There are women who are barely 100 pounds and look in the mirror and fat person. So they don't eat. This disorder is recognized as such because they are potentially putting themselves in harms way by not eating. I don't think being transgender deviates to far from that core principle of seeing something that isn't there. Yes, they feel like the opposite sex, but the women I just referenced "feel" fat, too. And let's not pretend there's not a feeling involved there.
But unlike other forms of body dysmorphia, transgenders have it bad because the choices they make for themselves (if you want to characterize them as "choices") make other people uncomfortable, and most forms of homophobia spill over into hating transgenders. It further complicates it with these restroom issues. I think most reasonable thinking people who oppose the open bathroom policies don't fear the transgenders. They fear the perverts exploiting the law and potentially putting innocent children in harm's way.
The whole thing is fucking complicated, but I do think it's fair consider the idea that identifying as transgender is indeed a disorder. It won't ever cause me to dislike the person embracing. I'd wish them equal rights and would have no issue having a child one day who identifies that way (though it'd be weird, that's for sure). But I think it's OK to consider the idea that maybe something isn't right inside these people.
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
Bullshit. If Bruce was killed in a car accident and was in the morgue. Their assessment would be a deceased male. Science says he is a he....period. It has NOTHING to do with what you identify with. What if Bruce identified as woman decades ago and tried to enter the women's events in the Olympics? Wouldn't fly right?
It may not mean shit to you but apparently it means enough to Jenner that she transitioned from a male to a female and is trying to be accepted as a woman by society. Do what you want, but I don't see what the point is of trying to call her a man other than trying to drive home an underlying point of "trans doesn't exist, it's a mental illness, and no matter what you do, i will identify you a man both physiologically AND psychologically until you chop off your penis.
Jenner might still have a penis and thereby be of the male sex, but it's clear that psychologically, she's a woman (and also a huge attention whore that seems to irritatingly always be in the fucking news non stop)
The American Psychiatric Association states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
Bullshit. If Bruce was killed in a car accident and was in the morgue. Their assessment would be a deceased male. Science says he is a he....period. It has NOTHING to do with what you identify with. What if Bruce identified as woman decades ago and tried to enter the women's events in the Olympics? Wouldn't fly right?
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In comment 12946640 Big Al said:
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In comment 12946516 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
So you agree Rachel Dolezal (sp?) is a Black woman?
No, for a couple of reasons:
1) There's no type of physical alteration that she's undertaken to become black (Jenner has already had surgery and hormone therapy, I guess she just didn't, uh, finish the job).
2) I think race and gender are different animals because there isn't as much of a mental division between races as there would be between genders.
I'm not trans, I have no idea what it feels like, but apparently it's an unmistakable deep seeded feeling that you are not the gender you were born as... deep enough that it drives people to remove themselves from their entire lives, jeopardize how society views them, and even kill themselves. I don't know from experience but it seems to go a lot deeper than just "I think I decide I'd rather be a girl!", and that doesn't seem to be as prevalent of a "phenomenon" as people who want to be a different race.
So while I get the comparisons to the "otherkin" (apparently that's the SJW tumblrina term for people who think they are animals) or people want to be another race, there's enough people with gender identity issues that this must be a real thing.
And since it has no personal affect on me, I don't really give a shit what they do as long as it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
So you are not really "accepting of what an individual feels or identifies with" as you said above. Only when it meets your criteria. not theirs.
I'm not a mental health professional, but apparently they feel gender identity issues are framed in a different way than the other scenarios outlined in this thread.
So while you may think you got your "HA GOTCHA YOU'RE SO ACCEPTING TILL PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH YOU" moment, you didn't.
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After her Olympic success, Jenner decided to cash in on her celebrity status, which would require forgoing any future Olympic competition.
No, "she" didn't cash in on "her" celebrity status as the Olympic champion in men's decathlon. Caitlyn Jenner didn't win the gold medal in men's decathlon, Bruce Jenner did, what with the being a man and all. This kind of historical revisionism would be amusing if it weren't so Orwellian.
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He was born Carlos Estevez, why don't people refer to him as that?
Elton John agreed with that and called Marilyn. Norma Jean.
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In comment 12946724 David in LA said:
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He was born Carlos Estevez, why don't people refer to him as that?
Elton John agreed with that and called Marilyn. Norma Jean.
I can't tell if this is serious or sarcastic. If the former, then why didn't he refer to himself by his given name?
No man. I am not saying that we cannot or should not accept the fact that they are different. I personally think people should do what they want to do. This IS supposed to be a fee country. Which also means we are all entitled to our opinions on topics like this.
Meanwhile, I would love someone to answer my olympics question.
Final question. How do you differentiate between someone who truly identifies himself as a woman vs someone whose sole motivation is to just get into the woman's rest room?
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In comment 12946682 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 12946640 Big Al said:
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In comment 12946516 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
So you agree Rachel Dolezal (sp?) is a Black woman?
No, for a couple of reasons:
1) There's no type of physical alteration that she's undertaken to become black (Jenner has already had surgery and hormone therapy, I guess she just didn't, uh, finish the job).
2) I think race and gender are different animals because there isn't as much of a mental division between races as there would be between genders.
I'm not trans, I have no idea what it feels like, but apparently it's an unmistakable deep seeded feeling that you are not the gender you were born as... deep enough that it drives people to remove themselves from their entire lives, jeopardize how society views them, and even kill themselves. I don't know from experience but it seems to go a lot deeper than just "I think I decide I'd rather be a girl!", and that doesn't seem to be as prevalent of a "phenomenon" as people who want to be a different race.
So while I get the comparisons to the "otherkin" (apparently that's the SJW tumblrina term for people who think they are animals) or people want to be another race, there's enough people with gender identity issues that this must be a real thing.
And since it has no personal affect on me, I don't really give a shit what they do as long as it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
So you are not really "accepting of what an individual feels or identifies with" as you said above. Only when it meets your criteria. not theirs.
Not exactly. I'm just going with what modern mental health professionals have established as a framework. This applies to Greg's post as well.
I'm not a mental health professional, but apparently they feel gender identity issues are framed in a different way than the other scenarios outlined in this thread.
So while you may think you got your "HA GOTCHA YOU'RE SO ACCEPTING TILL PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH YOU" moment, you didn't.
Jenner might still have a penis and thereby be of the male sex, but it's clear that psychologically, she's a woman (and also a huge attention whore that seems to irritatingly always be in the fucking news non stop)
Again, facts are facts. If 2+2=5 is now true, then you're saying that all facts are subjective.
I also find it amusing that the same people who talk about how some people just have a female brain in a male body are usually the same people who froth at the mouth if you suggest that there are real biological differences between men and women.
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subject themselves to a much more difficult life. Spending money on surgery, potentially ostracized by friends and family, and higher suicide rates does not sound like a good deal for anybody.
No man. I am not saying that we cannot or should not accept the fact that they are different. I personally think people should do what they want to do. This IS supposed to be a fee country. Which also means we are all entitled to our opinions on topics like this.
Meanwhile, I would love someone to answer my olympics question.
Final question. How do you differentiate between someone who truly identifies himself as a woman vs someone whose sole motivation is to just get into the woman's rest room?
When have you ever been followed into a rest room by someone ogling you?
Just bizarre perspectives around this issue.
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Unfortunately woman unanimously disagree. I wish they had to honor my belief.
This never makes sense in any context. Someone can't "identify" as another individual. I don't know if you're trying to discredit gender identity issues and imply that they're a load of bullshit and doesn't exist, but I mean they very clearly and obviously do.
I dunno. People identify as other people all the time. People identify as animals and have been for ages. Its nothing new, except now we can actually change our bodies to look like them.
This is true. I swear it.
the jenners and kardashians are annoying, attention-seeking talentless twits, but there are more important things to get worked up about.
This is true. I swear it.
Curtis, are you really the Mermicorn? You're amongst friends here, this is your safe space. you can just be your mermicorn self without judgment.
What will the shelf sales impact be? How many subscribers will cancel? How many new subscribers will sign up? Etc.
Personally, as a sports consumer and SI subscriber for a long, long time, I have had my fill of the ESPNs/SIs/etc mixing their content with their political agenda. Especially since Disney took ownership ESPN, via ABC, it's gotten progressively worse the past 20 years. When ESPN awarded Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner the Arthur Ashe Courage Award the message would louder and clearer than ever. Either get in line, and follow our lead, or you will be discarded (e.g. Curt Schilling).
I see sports television/radio going the way of news - broken out by political lines. Eventually Fox Sports will become the conservative sports channel option. ESPN the liberal option. CBS TBD, but likely another liberal venue...
I half think it is an opening just to get people to object under the guise of the bathroom issue, while really just trying to push a religious agenda or homophobic agenda.
I've seen a lot of shit in bathrooms. Drug use, fights, passed out people, sex in a stall, and yet, seeing a transgendered person in there doesn't even hit the radar screen.
I'll pose a question for those who support the sex on your birth certificate is the bathroom you have to use - What if Carla identifies as Carl and takes hormone therapy to grow a thick moustache. Technically, she has to use the girls bathroom. How's that going to fly?
I half think it is an opening just to get people to object under the guise of the bathroom issue, while really just trying to push a religious agenda or homophobic agenda.
I've seen a lot of shit in bathrooms. Drug use, fights, passed out people, sex in a stall, and yet, seeing a transgendered person in there doesn't even hit the radar screen.
I'll pose a question for those who support the sex on your birth certificate is the bathroom you have to use - What if Carla identifies as Carl and takes hormone therapy to grow a thick moustache. Technically, she has to use the girls bathroom. How's that going to fly?
I agree with your post and find that part of the issue to be somewhat of an election year red herring - but I won't get into the politics of it.
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that close to 100% of us who have used public bathrooms regularly (travelers or people who work on the road, etc.) has shared a bathroom with a transgender person and not known about and it most likely never would.
ESPN's seemingly trying to be more inclusive and progressive which on face value isn't bad.
And the world did not come to an end.
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they are a "Mermicorn." Part mermaid, and part unicorn.
This is true. I swear it.
Curtis, are you really the Mermicorn? You're amongst friends here, this is your safe space. you can just be your mermicorn self without judgment.
Busted! :)
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In comment 12946853 David in LA said:
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subject themselves to a much more difficult life. Spending money on surgery, potentially ostracized by friends and family, and higher suicide rates does not sound like a good deal for anybody.
No man. I am not saying that we cannot or should not accept the fact that they are different. I personally think people should do what they want to do. This IS supposed to be a fee country. Which also means we are all entitled to our opinions on topics like this.
Meanwhile, I would love someone to answer my olympics question.
Final question. How do you differentiate between someone who truly identifies himself as a woman vs someone whose sole motivation is to just get into the woman's rest room?
Who gives a crap and when the hell does that ever happen? And to what purpose? It's not like people walk around naked in rest rooms.
When have you ever been followed into a rest room by someone ogling you?
Just bizarre perspectives around this issue.
And the world did not come to an end.
They wouldn't be generating multi-page discussions like this one if Jenner was going to be clothed.