[virtue signaling]Now, I have no particular problem with Caitlyn Jenner,[/virtue signaling], but I really didn't need another several months of controversy to sift through, not when our plates will be full with the DJT candidacy.
And obviously, it's not even about her - just the people who now ache to get offended every time she deigns to leave the house, but you can't help but get the sense that she's courting their ire. Also her prerogative - but the rest of us have to suffer for the resulting backlash.
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Remember that Controversy with Trump saying something about putting Merry Christmas on the Starbucks Coffee Cups?
Exactly the same it is nothing but a distraction.
I mean sports Illustrated? It is just going to draw more pointless controversy.
Like when Drake Bell Called her Bruce Jenner and people got mad. I mean who cares lol.
"Hey you want to come over my house and like talk about Catlyin Jenner all day?"........."Like Yaaaa I'll invite Caddy 3 ways are way more fun"
God Amercey.
PC gone wild!
2. Who cares?
PC bull-shit gone crazy
down here in Carolina, he/she will still have to use the Port-A-Potty.
I don't think this has much to do with political correctness. For Time Inc., it's all about the Tubmans.
(Obligatory "I'm as tolerant and non-judgemental as they come." Thanks.)
They may be on the "collective asshole" of society, but the "collective brain" of society just made Donald Trump the Republican nominee for President. So perhaps the two are indistinguishable.
Political Correctness out of control? More like "celebrity" out of control. We've reached a point where some people are famous for being hated. I know people that watch the Kardashian show just to hate them.
If you are wasting your energy getting pissed off you are part of the problem.
I was flipping through channels last night and found one version of whatever Kardashian show it was. Saw it was Bruce and a daughter chatting about girl things by the pool, and clicked again rapidly.
All the best to Bruce and whatever he wants to be and portray himself as.
I just could not care any less.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
For the over 55 heterosexual crowd, it may just kill it for good!
Awesome family
I was flipping through channels last night and found one version of whatever Kardashian show it was. Saw it was Bruce and a daughter chatting about girl things by the pool, and clicked again rapidly.
All the best to Bruce and whatever he wants to be and portray himself as.
I just could not care any less.
Love how you keep calling it Bruce and "he" Not sure how i feel about that - should i be offended?
Personally, I didnt know Sports Illustrated still existed. Do they share a plant with Readers Digest?
this is going to create a buzz for those 6 people who still get the magazine delivered to their houses.
Probably the same 6 people who still use AOL as their internet service provider because they can't figure out how to cancel it.
BINGO!!!
It's genius...as soon as the lime light fades, he thinks of a new PR stunt....
After this though, I don't know what else he could do.....leaked sex tape? Hmmmmm
Ignorant assholes.
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Which sits right next to "paying no mind" category.
I was flipping through channels last night and found one version of whatever Kardashian show it was. Saw it was Bruce and a daughter chatting about girl things by the pool, and clicked again rapidly.
All the best to Bruce and whatever he wants to be and portray himself as.
I just could not care any less.
Love how you keep calling it Bruce and "he" Not sure how i feel about that - should i be offended?
Personally, I didnt know Sports Illustrated still existed. Do they share a plant with Readers Digest?
Ha. Is it worse you described Bruce as "it?" LOL
This has nothing to do with PC
As for the he/she comments, she identifies as a she. Whether she has a dick or not is pointless in that argument. But it's a free country; call her whatever you like.
This is just plain stupid and money driven. Nothing to do with PC.
I don't pay attention enough I guess.
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...political correctness. It has to do with dollars and PR.
BINGO!!!
It's genius...as soon as the lime light fades, he thinks of a new PR stunt....
After this though, I don't know what else he could do.....leaked sex tape? Hmmmmm
Publicity stunt to generate $$$. Something people have been doing before the term PC ever came into existence. Besides how can you be PC, if you honestly don't care?
She argued that that paper tried to give lesser known candidates as much coverage as folks who were making more noise. O'Reilly said that was bunk, and that it's their charge to cover the news, and that some candidates were making news, while others were not.
My point is, I can understand Jenner being targeted by SI based on a life's work. This was, after all, America's sweatheart and the best athlete on the planet for a time ... who is now front and center in a high-profile social issue (generally speaking - sexuality and the right to do ... whatever).
So, it's not surprising to me at all.
But? I don't care. LOL
I grew up knowing Bruce Jenner, not Caitlin. So he self identifies as a woman - I identify him as an athlete.
If people in a sports forum refer to Cassius Clay or Lew Alcindor, we know exactly who they are talking about. We don't correct them in the vein of them being disrespectful.
I wish people would realize that words are mainly a means to streamline communication. When somebody says Bruce Jenner, you know who they are referring to. Isn't that the point?
Won't use "she", though, because Caitlyn Jenner has a penis and thus isn't a woman, no matter how much he may desire to be one.
Won't use "she", though, because Caitlyn Jenner has a penis and thus isn't a woman, no matter how much he may desire to be one.
And SI doesn't put actual women who are 66 years old posing nude on the cover.
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than he makes for one of the ugliest women out there.
And SI doesn't put actual women who are 66 years old posing nude on the cover.
I've got other magazines for that.
Won't use "she", though, because Caitlyn Jenner has a penis and thus isn't a woman, no matter how much he may desire to be one.
So if Caitlyn had surgery you'd begin saying 'her'?
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In comment 12946248 steve in ky said:
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than he makes for one of the ugliest women out there.
And SI doesn't put actual women who are 66 years old posing nude on the cover.
I've got other magazines for that.
Actually, it has to do with all three. What other 66 year old would SI let pose nude on the cover? Regardless of the dollars and PR.
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...political correctness. It has to do with dollars and PR.
Actually, it has to do with all three. What other 66 year old would SI let pose nude on the cover? Regardless of the dollars and PR.
Nope. PC has become the catch-all for folks with a particular viewpoint. In this case, it's an absolute misuse of the term. This is strictly commercial.
I grew up knowing Bruce Jenner, not Caitlin. So he self identifies as a woman - I identify him as an athlete.
If people in a sports forum refer to Cassius Clay or Lew Alcindor, we know exactly who they are talking about. We don't correct them in the vein of them being disrespectful.
I wish people would realize that words are mainly a means to streamline communication. When somebody says Bruce Jenner, you know who they are referring to. Isn't that the point?
Hey, if he wants to go all the way through with this and become a woman physically and legally, great. Until then, he is still a he. If it was anyone else, I also may be understanding. But, given the family this is coming from, there is always a part of me that simply believes this is all a PR stunt...like joke's on us.
Either way, this posing nude is nothing more than a stunt, as I said in the top of my post.
And I can't get that song out of my head.
- B Jenner
It's got nothing to do with PC, and seeing people try to frame it as such is dumb.
There isn't any false equivalency here of "oh we put women on the cover all the time, so we need to put a trans woman on now". A trans woman isn't being on to placate the masses. Although I could see this as Sports Illustrated trying to seem progressive and inclusive... but the fact that it's Jenner and nude just makes it so easy to see through that charade.
Want to show support for the trans community? How about a cover of a trans athlete instead?
SI is just using the "acceptance" bandwagon to sell magazines and create a stir. They don't give a shit about helping the LGBT community, and they are intentionally trying to piss people off on both "sides".
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
It's got nothing to do with PC
Although I could see this as Sports Illustrated trying to seem progressive and inclusive...
Aren't you contradicting yourself? I don't think anyone is saying that dollar signs aren't also a motivation.
I grew up knowing Bruce Jenner, not Caitlin. So he self identifies as a woman - I identify him as an athlete.
If people in a sports forum refer to Cassius Clay or Lew Alcindor, we know exactly who they are talking about. We don't correct them in the vein of them being disrespectful.
I wish people would realize that words are mainly a means to streamline communication. When somebody says Bruce Jenner, you know who they are referring to. Isn't that the point?
Of course it's just a message board though so nobody gives a shit..I'm just speaking conceptually.
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It's got nothing to do with PC
Although I could see this as Sports Illustrated trying to seem progressive and inclusive...
Aren't you contradicting yourself? I don't think anyone is saying that dollar signs aren't also a motivation.
IMO, Political correctness doesn't mean being inclusive or forward thinking (well, it shouldn't at least). It's about going over the top to placate individuals and not offend people.
If facts are simply what we want then to be, regardless of reality, you're opening the door to some very dark paths.
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In comment 12946510 Sonic Youth said:
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It's got nothing to do with PC
Although I could see this as Sports Illustrated trying to seem progressive and inclusive...
Aren't you contradicting yourself? I don't think anyone is saying that dollar signs aren't also a motivation.
IMO, Political correctness doesn't mean being inclusive or forward thinking (well, it shouldn't at least). It's about going over the top to placate individuals and not offend people.
As any connection between Jenner and sport is decades old, I'd say this is going over the top to placate individuals.
If facts are simply what we want then to be, regardless of reality, you're opening the door to some very dark paths.
I get the analogy about the Dalai Lama bit, and it's spot on since the Dalai Lama is an actual singular person, but I don't know if it's perfectly applicable since you can't be another individual. However, "man" and "woman" are categorical, so wouldn't a better analogy be if Jenner felt he was a Buddhist, started practicing Buddhism, and people refused to call him Buddhist?
Granted the obvious hole in that logic is that religion isn't a biological attribute, which I totally understand. It's a messy comparison on both ends (since for your analogy, you referenced acting as a specific individual, and in my analogy, I wasn't speaking about a physical trait).
Not arguing with you, just sharing my perspective on it.
How many people referred to Prince as an unaudible symbol? If you grew up your entire life as Elton John's best friend, is he pissed you call him Reggie?
I only know Jenner as Bruce, and frankly most discussion I'd have of him is of accomplishments as Bruce. And there's also Greg's thing that he's still got a dick.
So he wants to be called Kaitlin. Cool. But how is it disrespectful to not call him Caitlin when having a discussion about attention whoring? I still don't call Ron Artest Metta World Peace.
You know how many people think of themselves as Christ or a God. They self identify as one, so do we have to satisfy them?
Like he said, if we abide by what people self-identify with, we open up some really dark areas.
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I get your point, but wouldn't you find it disrespectful to call someoen by the name they previously abandoned or changed?
How many people referred to Prince as an unaudible symbol? If you grew up your entire life as Elton John's best friend, is he pissed you call him Reggie?
I only know Jenner as Bruce, and frankly most discussion I'd have of him is of accomplishments as Bruce. And there's also Greg's thing that he's still got a dick.
So he wants to be called Kaitlin. Cool. But how is it disrespectful to not call him Caitlin when having a discussion about attention whoring? I still don't call Ron Artest Metta World Peace.
I also think the reason someone changed their name factors into things.
Metta World Peace and the symbol for Prince were seemingly done for attention and contractual reasons, respectively. But Jabbar, Ali, and Jenner seemed to have changed their name as an actual reflection of their identity (not that Caitlin Jenner isn't the biggest fucking attention whore on the planet and is so god damn annoying).
It's kind of like calling Karl Anthony Towns by his previous name Karl Towns Jr because you're used to it, even though he changed it because he did not want to be identified with his father.
Either way though, I'm not trying to go out of my way to give you shit for it, so apologies if it comes off that way.
Unless it's the Rock wanting to be called Dwayne Johnson. That's not happening.
People that have no relationship with him and associate him as the Olympic athlete they watched referring to him as Bruce when discussing him on some web site he will never read IMO aren't being disrespectful.
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
I miss the BBI margi.
#LIZARDLIVESMATTER
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
So you agree Rachel Dolezal (sp?) is a Black woman?
No, for a couple of reasons:
1) There's no type of physical alteration that she's undertaken to become black (Jenner has already had surgery and hormone therapy, I guess she just didn't, uh, finish the job).
2) I think race and gender are different animals because there isn't as much of a mental division between races as there would be between genders.
I'm not trans, I have no idea what it feels like, but apparently it's an unmistakable deep seeded feeling that you are not the gender you were born as... deep enough that it drives people to remove themselves from their entire lives, jeopardize how society views them, and even kill themselves. I don't know from experience but it seems to go a lot deeper than just "I think I decide I'd rather be a girl!", and that doesn't seem to be as prevalent of a "phenomenon" as people who want to be a different race.
So while I get the comparisons to the "otherkin" (apparently that's the SJW tumblrina term for people who think they are animals) or people want to be another race, there's enough people with gender identity issues that this must be a real thing.
And since it has no personal affect on me, I don't really give a shit what they do as long as it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
I don't doubt their sincerity, but the sincerity of mentally ill people really doesn't mean much.
There are people who cut off fully functioning limbs because they strongly believe that they were supposed to be crippled. I fail to see any meaningful distinction between that and Caitlyn Jenner.
Many people, like One Hand Jason, arrange “accidents” to help achieve the goal. One dropped an incredibly heavy concrete block on his legs — an attempt to injure himself so bad an amputation would be necessary. But doctors saved the leg. He limps, but it’s not the disability he wanted.
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
So you agree Rachel Dolezal (sp?) is a Black woman?
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In comment 12946516 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
So you agree Rachel Dolezal (sp?) is a Black woman?
No, for a couple of reasons:
1) There's no type of physical alteration that she's undertaken to become black (Jenner has already had surgery and hormone therapy, I guess she just didn't, uh, finish the job).
2) I think race and gender are different animals because there isn't as much of a mental division between races as there would be between genders.
I'm not trans, I have no idea what it feels like, but apparently it's an unmistakable deep seeded feeling that you are not the gender you were born as... deep enough that it drives people to remove themselves from their entire lives, jeopardize how society views them, and even kill themselves. I don't know from experience but it seems to go a lot deeper than just "I think I decide I'd rather be a girl!", and that doesn't seem to be as prevalent of a "phenomenon" as people who want to be a different race.
So while I get the comparisons to the "otherkin" (apparently that's the SJW tumblrina term for people who think they are animals) or people want to be another race, there's enough people with gender identity issues that this must be a real thing.
And since it has no personal affect on me, I don't really give a shit what they do as long as it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
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In comment 12946516 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
So you agree Rachel Dolezal (sp?) is a Black woman?
Was she really identifying as a Black woman or simply lying?
I believe that is what she claimed.
I say no.
I say no.
Yeah and don't get me started on that Marion Morrison fellow.
Personally, I fall somewhere in between this and not acknowledging him as a female. Even if I can get past forgetting about Bruce, I still can't call him a her, because he is a male.
I don't doubt their sincerity, but the sincerity of mentally ill people really doesn't mean much.
There are people who cut off fully functioning limbs because they strongly believe that they were supposed to be crippled. I fail to see any meaningful distinction between that and Caitlyn Jenner.
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Most of them are men. About half are in Germany and Switzerland, but he knows of a few in Canada. Most crave an amputation or paralysis, though he has interviewed one person who wants his penis removed. Another wants to be blind.
Many people, like One Hand Jason, arrange “accidents” to help achieve the goal. One dropped an incredibly heavy concrete block on his legs — an attempt to injure himself so bad an amputation would be necessary. But doctors saved the leg. He limps, but it’s not the disability he wanted.
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Wow, thanks for posting this. There really are some absurd groups of people out there.
No, "she" didn't cash in on "her" celebrity status as the Olympic champion in men's decathlon. Caitlyn Jenner didn't win the gold medal in men's decathlon, Bruce Jenner did, what with the being a man and all. This kind of historical revisionism would be amusing if it weren't so Orwellian.
Personally, I fall somewhere in between this and not acknowledging him as a female. Even if I can get past forgetting about Bruce, I still can't call him a her, because he is a male.
I agree with this. If I were with a friend and someone he knew came up to us that was clearly a guy dressed as a women and I was introduced to him as Mary I would associate with that person as Mary and if talking about him would refer to him as Mary.
When I think of Jenner I still think of watching him participate in and winning the gold in the decathlon in 1976
And having never watched or followed any of those Kardashian show or spectacle second to the Olympics I probably associate him with Battle of the Network Stars
Is this a joke or serious? Can't tell.
I don't doubt their sincerity, but the sincerity of mentally ill people really doesn't mean much.
There are people who cut off fully functioning limbs because they strongly believe that they were supposed to be crippled. I fail to see any meaningful distinction between that and Caitlyn Jenner.
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Most of them are men. About half are in Germany and Switzerland, but he knows of a few in Canada. Most crave an amputation or paralysis, though he has interviewed one person who wants his penis removed. Another wants to be blind.
Many people, like One Hand Jason, arrange “accidents” to help achieve the goal. One dropped an incredibly heavy concrete block on his legs — an attempt to injure himself so bad an amputation would be necessary. But doctors saved the leg. He limps, but it’s not the disability he wanted.
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Some of us are simply born that way. Female brain in a male body or vice-versa.
They are everywhere, and as America is becoming more accepting, they are beginning to show their true numbers.
As crazy as this country has gotten over the last decades, this is one thing that actually IS Progressing - LGBT rights being recognized. Good for us.
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
Bullshit. If Bruce was killed in a car accident and was in the morgue. Their assessment would be a deceased male. Science says he is a he....period. It has NOTHING to do with what you identify with. What if Bruce identified as woman decades ago and tried to enter the women's events in the Olympics? Wouldn't fly right?
There are women who are barely 100 pounds and look in the mirror and fat person. So they don't eat. This disorder is recognized as such because they are potentially putting themselves in harms way by not eating. I don't think being transgender deviates to far from that core principle of seeing something that isn't there. Yes, they feel like the opposite sex, but the women I just referenced "feel" fat, too. And let's not pretend there's not a feeling involved there.
But unlike other forms of body dysmorphia, transgenders have it bad because the choices they make for themselves (if you want to characterize them as "choices") make other people uncomfortable, and most forms of homophobia spill over into hating transgenders. It further complicates it with these restroom issues. I think most reasonable thinking people who oppose the open bathroom policies don't fear the transgenders. They fear the perverts exploiting the law and potentially putting innocent children in harm's way.
The whole thing is fucking complicated, but I do think it's fair consider the idea that identifying as transgender is indeed a disorder. It won't ever cause me to dislike the person embracing. I'd wish them equal rights and would have no issue having a child one day who identifies that way (though it'd be weird, that's for sure). But I think it's OK to consider the idea that maybe something isn't right inside these people.
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
Bullshit. If Bruce was killed in a car accident and was in the morgue. Their assessment would be a deceased male. Science says he is a he....period. It has NOTHING to do with what you identify with. What if Bruce identified as woman decades ago and tried to enter the women's events in the Olympics? Wouldn't fly right?
It may not mean shit to you but apparently it means enough to Jenner that she transitioned from a male to a female and is trying to be accepted as a woman by society. Do what you want, but I don't see what the point is of trying to call her a man other than trying to drive home an underlying point of "trans doesn't exist, it's a mental illness, and no matter what you do, i will identify you a man both physiologically AND psychologically until you chop off your penis.
Jenner might still have a penis and thereby be of the male sex, but it's clear that psychologically, she's a woman (and also a huge attention whore that seems to irritatingly always be in the fucking news non stop)
The American Psychiatric Association states that "gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
Bullshit. If Bruce was killed in a car accident and was in the morgue. Their assessment would be a deceased male. Science says he is a he....period. It has NOTHING to do with what you identify with. What if Bruce identified as woman decades ago and tried to enter the women's events in the Olympics? Wouldn't fly right?
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In comment 12946640 Big Al said:
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In comment 12946516 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
So you agree Rachel Dolezal (sp?) is a Black woman?
No, for a couple of reasons:
1) There's no type of physical alteration that she's undertaken to become black (Jenner has already had surgery and hormone therapy, I guess she just didn't, uh, finish the job).
2) I think race and gender are different animals because there isn't as much of a mental division between races as there would be between genders.
I'm not trans, I have no idea what it feels like, but apparently it's an unmistakable deep seeded feeling that you are not the gender you were born as... deep enough that it drives people to remove themselves from their entire lives, jeopardize how society views them, and even kill themselves. I don't know from experience but it seems to go a lot deeper than just "I think I decide I'd rather be a girl!", and that doesn't seem to be as prevalent of a "phenomenon" as people who want to be a different race.
So while I get the comparisons to the "otherkin" (apparently that's the SJW tumblrina term for people who think they are animals) or people want to be another race, there's enough people with gender identity issues that this must be a real thing.
And since it has no personal affect on me, I don't really give a shit what they do as long as it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
So you are not really "accepting of what an individual feels or identifies with" as you said above. Only when it meets your criteria. not theirs.
I'm not a mental health professional, but apparently they feel gender identity issues are framed in a different way than the other scenarios outlined in this thread.
So while you may think you got your "HA GOTCHA YOU'RE SO ACCEPTING TILL PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH YOU" moment, you didn't.
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After her Olympic success, Jenner decided to cash in on her celebrity status, which would require forgoing any future Olympic competition.
No, "she" didn't cash in on "her" celebrity status as the Olympic champion in men's decathlon. Caitlyn Jenner didn't win the gold medal in men's decathlon, Bruce Jenner did, what with the being a man and all. This kind of historical revisionism would be amusing if it weren't so Orwellian.
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He was born Carlos Estevez, why don't people refer to him as that?
Elton John agreed with that and called Marilyn. Norma Jean.
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In comment 12946724 David in LA said:
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He was born Carlos Estevez, why don't people refer to him as that?
Elton John agreed with that and called Marilyn. Norma Jean.
I can't tell if this is serious or sarcastic. If the former, then why didn't he refer to himself by his given name?
No man. I am not saying that we cannot or should not accept the fact that they are different. I personally think people should do what they want to do. This IS supposed to be a fee country. Which also means we are all entitled to our opinions on topics like this.
Meanwhile, I would love someone to answer my olympics question.
Final question. How do you differentiate between someone who truly identifies himself as a woman vs someone whose sole motivation is to just get into the woman's rest room?
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In comment 12946682 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 12946640 Big Al said:
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In comment 12946516 Sonic Youth said:
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In comment 12945925 EricJ said:
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he is NOT a she yet. Operation has not happened. Second of all, even if he did have it removed... he is one ugly bitch who would NEVER make the cover of SI if he was born a she.
SI is now no better than Rolling Stone now.
Jenner is a she. Stop trying to prove a point by calling her him. Between hormone therapy, self identification, and how Jenner lives her life, she's clearly a woman now.
I don't understand the mindset of someone who is trans (as presumably you don't either), and it's something I probably won't ever get. But having said that, I'm accepting of whatever an individual feels or identifies with... so if Jenner identifies as a woman and goes by Caitlyn, I'm not going to call her "him" just to spite her and prove some silly point.
So you agree Rachel Dolezal (sp?) is a Black woman?
No, for a couple of reasons:
1) There's no type of physical alteration that she's undertaken to become black (Jenner has already had surgery and hormone therapy, I guess she just didn't, uh, finish the job).
2) I think race and gender are different animals because there isn't as much of a mental division between races as there would be between genders.
I'm not trans, I have no idea what it feels like, but apparently it's an unmistakable deep seeded feeling that you are not the gender you were born as... deep enough that it drives people to remove themselves from their entire lives, jeopardize how society views them, and even kill themselves. I don't know from experience but it seems to go a lot deeper than just "I think I decide I'd rather be a girl!", and that doesn't seem to be as prevalent of a "phenomenon" as people who want to be a different race.
So while I get the comparisons to the "otherkin" (apparently that's the SJW tumblrina term for people who think they are animals) or people want to be another race, there's enough people with gender identity issues that this must be a real thing.
And since it has no personal affect on me, I don't really give a shit what they do as long as it makes them happy and doesn't harm anyone else.
So you are not really "accepting of what an individual feels or identifies with" as you said above. Only when it meets your criteria. not theirs.
Not exactly. I'm just going with what modern mental health professionals have established as a framework. This applies to Greg's post as well.
I'm not a mental health professional, but apparently they feel gender identity issues are framed in a different way than the other scenarios outlined in this thread.
So while you may think you got your "HA GOTCHA YOU'RE SO ACCEPTING TILL PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH YOU" moment, you didn't.
Jenner might still have a penis and thereby be of the male sex, but it's clear that psychologically, she's a woman (and also a huge attention whore that seems to irritatingly always be in the fucking news non stop)
Again, facts are facts. If 2+2=5 is now true, then you're saying that all facts are subjective.
I also find it amusing that the same people who talk about how some people just have a female brain in a male body are usually the same people who froth at the mouth if you suggest that there are real biological differences between men and women.
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subject themselves to a much more difficult life. Spending money on surgery, potentially ostracized by friends and family, and higher suicide rates does not sound like a good deal for anybody.
No man. I am not saying that we cannot or should not accept the fact that they are different. I personally think people should do what they want to do. This IS supposed to be a fee country. Which also means we are all entitled to our opinions on topics like this.
Meanwhile, I would love someone to answer my olympics question.
Final question. How do you differentiate between someone who truly identifies himself as a woman vs someone whose sole motivation is to just get into the woman's rest room?
When have you ever been followed into a rest room by someone ogling you?
Just bizarre perspectives around this issue.
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Unfortunately woman unanimously disagree. I wish they had to honor my belief.
This never makes sense in any context. Someone can't "identify" as another individual. I don't know if you're trying to discredit gender identity issues and imply that they're a load of bullshit and doesn't exist, but I mean they very clearly and obviously do.
I dunno. People identify as other people all the time. People identify as animals and have been for ages. Its nothing new, except now we can actually change our bodies to look like them.
This is true. I swear it.
the jenners and kardashians are annoying, attention-seeking talentless twits, but there are more important things to get worked up about.
This is true. I swear it.
Curtis, are you really the Mermicorn? You're amongst friends here, this is your safe space. you can just be your mermicorn self without judgment.
What will the shelf sales impact be? How many subscribers will cancel? How many new subscribers will sign up? Etc.
Personally, as a sports consumer and SI subscriber for a long, long time, I have had my fill of the ESPNs/SIs/etc mixing their content with their political agenda. Especially since Disney took ownership ESPN, via ABC, it's gotten progressively worse the past 20 years. When ESPN awarded Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner the Arthur Ashe Courage Award the message would louder and clearer than ever. Either get in line, and follow our lead, or you will be discarded (e.g. Curt Schilling).
I see sports television/radio going the way of news - broken out by political lines. Eventually Fox Sports will become the conservative sports channel option. ESPN the liberal option. CBS TBD, but likely another liberal venue...
I half think it is an opening just to get people to object under the guise of the bathroom issue, while really just trying to push a religious agenda or homophobic agenda.
I've seen a lot of shit in bathrooms. Drug use, fights, passed out people, sex in a stall, and yet, seeing a transgendered person in there doesn't even hit the radar screen.
I'll pose a question for those who support the sex on your birth certificate is the bathroom you have to use - What if Carla identifies as Carl and takes hormone therapy to grow a thick moustache. Technically, she has to use the girls bathroom. How's that going to fly?
I half think it is an opening just to get people to object under the guise of the bathroom issue, while really just trying to push a religious agenda or homophobic agenda.
I've seen a lot of shit in bathrooms. Drug use, fights, passed out people, sex in a stall, and yet, seeing a transgendered person in there doesn't even hit the radar screen.
I'll pose a question for those who support the sex on your birth certificate is the bathroom you have to use - What if Carla identifies as Carl and takes hormone therapy to grow a thick moustache. Technically, she has to use the girls bathroom. How's that going to fly?
I agree with your post and find that part of the issue to be somewhat of an election year red herring - but I won't get into the politics of it.
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that close to 100% of us who have used public bathrooms regularly (travelers or people who work on the road, etc.) has shared a bathroom with a transgender person and not known about and it most likely never would.
ESPN's seemingly trying to be more inclusive and progressive which on face value isn't bad.
And the world did not come to an end.
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they are a "Mermicorn." Part mermaid, and part unicorn.
This is true. I swear it.
Curtis, are you really the Mermicorn? You're amongst friends here, this is your safe space. you can just be your mermicorn self without judgment.
Busted! :)
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In comment 12946853 David in LA said:
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subject themselves to a much more difficult life. Spending money on surgery, potentially ostracized by friends and family, and higher suicide rates does not sound like a good deal for anybody.
No man. I am not saying that we cannot or should not accept the fact that they are different. I personally think people should do what they want to do. This IS supposed to be a fee country. Which also means we are all entitled to our opinions on topics like this.
Meanwhile, I would love someone to answer my olympics question.
Final question. How do you differentiate between someone who truly identifies himself as a woman vs someone whose sole motivation is to just get into the woman's rest room?
Who gives a crap and when the hell does that ever happen? And to what purpose? It's not like people walk around naked in rest rooms.
When have you ever been followed into a rest room by someone ogling you?
Just bizarre perspectives around this issue.
And the world did not come to an end.
They wouldn't be generating multi-page discussions like this one if Jenner was going to be clothed.