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| When the first round of the 2016 NFL Draft was unfolding, it wasn't hard to see the moves before they happenedespecially when it pertained to the Giants' No. 10 overall selection. With rumors circulating in the days leading up to the first round, the concept of Tennessee moving up from No. 15 to No. 8 for an offensive lineman or Chicago moving from No. 11 to jump the Giants for Georgia linebacker Leonard Floyd was almost too easy and obvious to miss. But there's another part of the equation that hasn't been talked about: The teams moving downor at least one of them. By now, you've probably read plenty about the Browns' Moneyball draft strategy that took them from No. 2 to No. 8 to No. 15. But what about Tampa Bay, the team that allowed Chicago to move up for Floyd and took the cornerback the Giants passed up? According to Bucs GM Jason Licht, they wanted Florida corner Vernon Hargreaves all along, but had a feeling the Giants wouldn't take him. Here's what Licht had to say to Sirius XM's Adam Schein (via JoeBucsFan): "Our gut instinct in this case was that [Vernon Hargreaves] wouldn't go to the Giants, that we could still go back and get him at No. 11. And [by consummating the trade], it would allow us to pick up a pick that I wanted to use to ensure we got the kicker," Licht said. Drafting well (or getting what you want out of a draft board) isn't just about what you do. It's about reading the room. Somehow, Licht had a good idea of how the Giants ranked their corners. And it's now part of the reason why Floyd isn't a Giant, Hargreaves is a Buc and Florida State kicker Roberto Aguayo became a second-round pick. |
He's not going to say we took their guy and that 2 other teams also took their other targets.
The #Bucs draft instinct seems to have cost #Giants Leonard Floyd (via @JoeGiglioSports)http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2016/05/giants_leonard_floyd_hargreaves_apple_nfl_draft.html
On the other hand, they preferred Apple to Hargreaves. One of the teams that moved down correctly surmised that. So the Giants got their top CB, and Tampa Bay got the guy they wanted.
All this stuff about the Giants "panicking." Sticking to your board is the opposite of panicking. You know what panicking is? "Oh my god, oh my God, Tampa wants Hargreaves, and they moved down, and they know what we're going to do so we can't draft Apple we have to draft Hargreaves because people know what we're thinking OMG Floyd is gone and Tunsil's on video with a bong gasmask and Conklin's gone and OMG OMG OMG!!!"
So?
Maybe to the FO thought Floyd was the value/immediate need. Do you trade picks in the 1st round for someone on the same tier. I wasn't sure with Floyd if making a move up was the right thing in the 1st round. He is a intriguing player because the his ceiling and floor seem to be so far apart.
OBJ/Donald/Martin and another player (can't remember who) were all on the same tier for the Giants if I recall in 2014. There was some thought they could trade back in 2014 and still get OBJ. But as it turns out Dallas was going to take him or Martin if you believe Dallas beat writers.
Mr. T says that Apple was their guy if the Giants would have taken Tunsil. Apple even stated that he had the most contact with the Dolphins.
One thing that hasn't been talked about was how bad reporters and mocks were wrong. Seems like the Bucs had no interest in Floyd at all. Yet for awhile Bucs were talked about moving up to grab him. Same with the Giants and Hargreaves.
We basically got suckered into drafting Eli Apple, Shepard and probably every other pick on the board.
Its a wonder Reese & Co. can even find the correct city where the draft is being held...
Imagine what BBI would look like if we made a move like that!
^This.
Say what you want about Reese, but at least he's never burned a Day 1/2 pick on a kicker.
Actually, I think people said Reese should be fired before the 2nd round after he picked Apple. And no, I'm not shitting you.
the best player in the draft stands there for us and we freeze. We pass on a position of desperate need with the absolutely right player, who has no arrest records, never failed a drug test, and might be the best tackle since Orlando Pace /Johnathon ogden and we don't pass him up to get a top ten, we get a nice cornerback who is very raw and we're gonna ask him to play a new position in the slot.
Fiasco, Disaster, a long time supporter of the FO, I've never seen such an unforgivable mistake including Dwyane and Rocky Thompson, David Brown and Jo Don Looney.
UNFORGIVABLE AND UNFORGETTABLE
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Lets keep in mind the Bucs drafted a kicker in the 2nd. A kicker. In the 2nd round. All of these guys like to think they're the smartest guy in the room, and they all have their faults.
^This.
Say what you want about Reese, but at least he's never burned a Day 1/2 pick on a kicker.
Fuck me. We didn't freeze. We consciously chose not to pick a guy with more red flags than Lenin's tomb. How fucking hard is that for people to grasp?
the best player in the draft stands there for us and we freeze. We pass on a position of desperate need with the absolutely right player, who has no arrest records, never failed a drug test, and might be the best tackle since Orlando Pace /Johnathon ogden and we don't pass him up to get a top ten, we get a nice cornerback who is very raw and we're gonna ask him to play a new position in the slot.
Fiasco, Disaster, a long time supporter of the FO, I've never seen such an unforgivable mistake including Dwyane and Rocky Thompson, David Brown and Jo Don Looney.
UNFORGIVABLE AND UNFORGETTABLE
There is no way Mara was drafting Larry "Darth Vadar" Tunsil with the 10th pick - no way. Get over it because its silly at this point.
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the best player in the draft stands there for us and we freeze.
Fuck me. We didn't freeze. We consciously chose not to pick a guy with more red flags than Lenin's tomb. How fucking hard is that for people to grasp?
And a not-insignificant injury history at college.
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the best player in the draft stands there for us and we freeze.
Fuck me. We didn't freeze. We consciously chose not to pick a guy with more red flags than Lenin's tomb. How fucking hard is that for people to grasp?
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the best player in the draft stands there for us and we freeze.
Fuck me. We didn't freeze. We consciously chose not to pick a guy with more red flags than Lenin's tomb. How fucking hard is that for people to grasp?
I think that the fluster is such a media myth...even the amateurs here in the myriad of mock draft scenarios came up with situations where Floyd and Conklin were both gone. It's really unlikely that the Giants also didn't run that scenario and develop alternative plans.
...and it appears Conklin may not have been in their plans at all.
I really think Apple was the guy they had on the back burner if Floyd was gone.
You're not paying attention if you don't know how much they've always valued corners that fit Apple's profile. The only thing he lacks from the prototype is the INT production.
As I've said on other threads, when it comes to DB -- I will trust Reese who has played, coached and scouted the position. In a few years, we'll know if Eli Apple can stay with the bigger WR's in the Division. Until then, the Bucs can talk all they want about their 2nd round kicker.
That franchise has been inept for a very long time. Who cares what they say? Didn't they just get done firing a coach after one season and drafting a kicker in the 2nd round?
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the best player in the draft stands there for us and we freeze.
We consciously chose not to pick a guy with more red flags than Lenin's tomb
I am the Walrus?
I am the Walrus?
I am the [i]Walrus]/i]
GODDAMN IT DONNIE! V.I. Lennon! Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov!
That franchise has been inept for a very long time. Who cares what they say? Didn't they just get done firing a coach after one season and drafting a kicker in the 2nd round?
Agreed. And this team has Glennon facing a UFA after this season where he'll certainly get starter $ in a QB starved league. Rather than trading him for draft pick(s), they'll likely end up getting nothing for him when he walks. Oh, and they drafted their franchise QB last year. What an asinine waste of resources.
Last week, they told me that Apple wasn't reaching them anyway.....as it was Tampa's top target as well.
Tampa just doesn't want to look stupid for losing their guy because they git greedy......they were convinced we would take Tunsil and wanted Apple.
Last week, they told me that Apple wasn't reaching them anyway.....as it was Tampa's top target as well.
Tampa just doesn't want to look stupid for losing their guy because they git greedy......they were convinced we would take Tunsil and wanted Apple.
This is a more likely scenario than the one painted by the Bucs GM.
Gone will be the thread full of posters who wanted nothing to do with Floyd. Absent will be anyone to commend Reese for seeing the talent in a guy that most draftniks didn't have going top 10. People will be talking about how we let a very good player slip through our fingers because of loose lips, forgetting the fact that measurables and the dearth of DEs that fit the Giants profile made it obvious to many that Floyd might be a fit, or the fact that Floyd is going to a team running a 3-4 that he's far more suited to play.
If Floyd does turn out to be a good one, it'll be nothing but bad press for Reese.
As funny as someone claiming a deal will be done any minute now several days ago and not just owning up to lying about it?
Because that's a sidesplitter right there...
Yup, Sy basically called it with Apple > Hargreaves for the Giants, so I'm sure a professional organization that studies other teams would've been able to figure that out.
In this case, they must've absolutely LOVED Apple!...hey, maybe they loved Floyd too..??? The point is, thyey were sitting at 10 with a board full of great players left---and they picked a Prime Position guy at 10...ahead of a highly touted CB!!!
They were somehwat short on picks...and I have no criticism of thgem sitting at 10 and drafting "their next greatest guy" at 10...and saving some poder for later rounds---and BTW...most people LOVE several of those later round pick!...guys that would not have been there if they traded up.
As for trading down???.... I like the idea of Picking at 10.
Dude, give it a rest.
I don't think a single poster said it couldn't be true. Personally I said its more likely the Bucs GM is going to paint a pretty picture and what GM's say is all lipservice (even our own).
Do you expect him to say "We really wanted Apple but Hargreaves was an OK consolation prize"?
that really only left stanley and conklin for the OT at 10 and as soon as baltimore took stanley it was all but a sure think the titans would trade back up for conklin ahead of the giants
hargreaves was the draftniks consensus choice but the stats and measureables have apple ahead of him and only slightly behind ramsey on the CB rankings,hargreaves is and may only ever be a slot CB but apple has the size and speed to play outside press corner which hargreaves is very unlikely to do
hargreaves is a more polished readymade starter but the longer view is that apple has a greater upside and just needs some coaching up to remove the grabbing that is his weakness. he could play the slot game 1 or if he plays well enough they play him outside and then probably shift jenkins into the slot where he can make plays on the ball for turnovers, probably giving him help over the top with thompson as jenkins can gamble and get caught out
the only positions they dont seam to have a plan or be making a play for are RT and RG i thought all the guff about jerry and newhouse being good enough was a smoke screen but it seams they actually believe it?
they could play hart at one of those 2 spots but they still need to find another OL to fill the hole on the right side of the OL even if hart does plug one of the holes there and thats not a given either it seam the OL is the only position they dont have a plan for
clearly they figure bromley and Odi fill the depth at DL thats why they didnt draft DL in the draft. i hope they figure something out at OL this team could breakout and be a 2007 or 2011 team again (maybe even better than 2011) if they can fix that last big newhouse and jerry shaped hole and IF all the FA AND draft picks live upto thier billing not a given but has a chance
He also has a great defensive mind coaching him up. It's a good spot for him. I still think he's got high bust potential, but Vic Fangio is the best possible way to make him a success.
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the best player in the draft stands there for us and we freeze.
Fuck me. We didn't freeze. We consciously chose not to pick a guy with more red flags than Lenin's tomb. How fucking hard is that for people to grasp?
The same idiots who could NEVER grasp WHY Will Hill was released here
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the best player in the draft stands there for us and we freeze.
Fuck me. We didn't freeze. We consciously chose not to pick a guy with more red flags than Lenin's tomb. How fucking hard is that for people to grasp?
The same idiots who could NEVER grasp WHY Will Hill was released here
well said by both of you
Here's what I think happened, and it's a lot simpler and much less cloak and dagger than what's passed off as "sports reporting" these days:
A) Bucs don't have a perfect match at value/need and make it known that their pick is for sale;
B) CHI Bears, knowing well that they and NYG have been linked and likely each love Floyd, make a deal to move up to Tampa's spot
These types of trades happen several times throughout each draft. And if the Bucs ended up missing on both Apple and Hargreaves and ended up with a lesser player, theyd look like idiots. Not as much as after using a premium pick on a kicker, but still.
That's it. End of story.
Here's what I think happened, and it's a lot simpler and much less cloak and dagger than what's passed off as "sports reporting" these days:
A) Bucs don't have a perfect match at value/need and make it known that their pick is for sale;
B) CHI Bears, knowing well that they and NYG have been linked and likely each love Floyd, make a deal to move up to Tampa's spot
These types of trades happen several times throughout each draft. And if the Bucs ended up missing on both Apple and Hargreaves and ended up with a lesser player, theyd look like idiots. Not as much as after using a premium pick on a kicker, but still.
That's it. End of story.
+1
I haven't heard anyone suggest that the Giants should have traded up for Floyd. Reese likely felt Apple and another player added more to the team than Floyd. I think that's a solid decision.
I think people can always question the judgment of taking one player over another that was available to them at the time, but those are judgement calls that can only really be evaluated in hindsight.
When is that Davis trade happening, anyway??
There is IMO more to the Tunsil story than
any of us know as to why this can't miss overall
#1 player by more than most dropped to the Phins
who have a bunch of queers with ownership in the team
And I will up your Rocky Thompson
One Bobby Gatewood WR ND #1
I also was glad we didn't take Floyd ...
Now that I have said that he will be DPY award
Or Jerry Reese has to attend more then 1 or 2 pro days each year which identify his top targets in round 1.
2014 LSU
2015 Miami
2016 Georgia/Ole Miss
You are right, we should start going to Pro Days for kickers, punters, and TE's only.
Think about all money the organization would save not having to send these front office folk all over the country.