Was looking at the Giants roster and trying to figure out the players by position who make the Final-53.
Having the hardest time with our offensive line. Right now, I see 8 "sure bets" and that assumes Adam Gettis (at Guard) and Brett Jones (at Center) are sure bets... they may not be.
Here they are:
70 Weston Richburg OC
69 Brett Jones OC
67 Justin Pugh OG
77 John Jerry OG
60 Adam Gettis OG
74 Ereck Flowers OT
73 Marshall Newhouse OT
68 Bobby Hart OT
My assumption is that the Final-53 has 10 offensive linemen, so we need two more players. Here's the current pool to draw from:
63 Emmett Cleary OT
65 Jake Rodgers OT
75 Byron Stingily OT
62 Ryan Seymour OG
61 Dillon Farrell OG
64 Shane McDermott OC
I just don't see it.
Everyone on BBI has talked about picking up a veteran offensive lineman after June 1 cuts. Now I see why.
Forget about the level of overall quality at Offensive Line. Geez... I think the Giants have a real concern just trying to find 10 legitimate bodies for the front wall.
Your words: "They have not done anything as if they are not worried"
I don't understand what you are saying here. You have used a double negative. Are you trying to say that the Giants have acted as though they are indeed worried about the offensive line?
Or, something else?
Please clarify.
Oh, and BTW... I think our offensive line as a run-blocking unit sucks. That's an opinion.
But this is not: if this offense does not figure out how to control the tempo of the game with a running attack, the Giants are still a 5-7 win team.
Depend upon it.
For Eli to even have that option, would be huge......and it certainly would take some of the pressure off this offense....
The only guy I have confidence in, is Richburg.....Flowers started, out of necessity....only Newhouse gave up more pressures than he did....yes, he was a rookie, playing on a bad ankle.....we have to hope that it was the ankle and not talent, that was the reason he had trouble with speed rushers....There still has to be some concern for Pugh, as far as concussions go....he has shown his versatility to play various positions, which makes him a huge loss, if he misses some games....the right side, is what it is....it's not like Reese doesn't know it....he is gambling the improvements made on defense, will take some of the pressure off this offense, so it won't be playing catch up most of the game.....the right side of the line is our weakness, and that's where the opposition will try to take advantage....
But after the starting 5, we really have a drop in level of play from the so-called backups.....Hart was 7th rounder for a reason, until he shows otherwise.....Jones? Are you kidding me? I'm surprised he is still on the roster....
Reese has to hope he finds, a castoff, or two, to fill the roles of backups for this line......If the starters don't stay healthy, this offense is in trouble....Eli can only do so much.....
That said we certainly do seem thin on OL. I don't think the 8 you projected are all good enough to make the team this year.
In the draft, they passed on Tunsil and Decker early, and also passed on any developmental OT or OG later on. After the draft, they didn't sign any "big ugly" UDFAs. Again, it just didn't seem to be a high priority for them.
Will they pick up a veteran O-Lineman before camp begins? Who knows? I suppose it depends on who shakes loose (and you don't actually have to wait until June 1 to see who does). Right or wrong, they may be content to "go to war with the Army they have," even if that Army consists of Jerry at RG, Newhouse at RT, and questionable depth on the bench.
2 QBs
3 TEs
4 RBs
1 FB
6 WRs
9 OL
Maybe if they choose not to keep a FB, they'll keep an extra O'LAKES, but I doubt it consideringredients the dearth of talent there and just stashing an OL on the practice squad.
Reese's job is on the line.....he can't fix everything in one season, so he spent most of his resources on the defense....he went CB with his first pick....there was nothing out there in FAcy, so that second pick almost had to be a WR......after that, there were no OLmen in the draft that were going to solve the right side, and start.....so yes, he is going with what he's got.....but if anyone goes down in that line, he is playing with fire again.....
we have seen Reese do this before, especially when it comes to safeties.... I won't even bring up, you know what....
Secondly, our passing defense was so bad that a high school QB could have thrown 300 yds against the Giants. We were dead last in the NFL for passing defense. We also were one of the worst (or maybe the worst, I don't have the statistics) for rushing the passer. Our rushing defense was 23rd out of 32 teams...and that was the BEST part of our defense.
As far as our offensive line goes, the Giants were ranked as the 8th best offensive line out of the 32 teams in the NFL last season. Not perfect, but in the top ten. Which stands to reason as we've spent a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks on o-linemen in the last few years.
Now all I hear is panic and bitching. I hear, "why haven't the Giants done something about that line..." as if we don't have to worry about being unable to stop a pass or giving up nearly 5 yds per carry in the ground game.
So c'mon - cut the front office some slack. Our o-line is NOT in crisis. Our passing defense was in extreme crisis. Our pass rush was in crisis. Our inability to stop a run right down our throats was in crisis. Our lack of a bona fide 2nd receiver was in crisis.
You don't mortgage the farm and spend all your resources throwing it at the one part of your team that is actually pretty damn solid whilst ignoring the crisis spots.
Could the o-line be better? Sure. Should we ignore our need in passing defense to improve it? No. What about our inability to stop a running back coming right through the middle of our defensive line? What about no one able to cover a TE?
We have limited resources to turn this team around and when the team's defense is ranked dead last in the NFL and the offensive line is ranked in the top quarter of offensive lines, you don't shoot your wad on the offensive line and ignore the crisis spots.
Nor do you fix a team with as many problems as the Giants overnight, in one off-season. To me, they've done one hell of a job trying to right the sinking ship and we have just begun to remake this team. In the meanwhile, don't look a gift horse in the mouth and cry like a 5-year old because our offensive line isn't better than the Cowboy's offensive line and we didn't use our premium draft picks to take a right tackle. Cut the front office some friggin slack!
You think this OL was really a top 10 line?
Because we scored a lot of points? Look at the defenses we played against...and many games we were trailing and passing desperately....this offense scored more because of Eli/OBj, rather than the play of the line....take either of them out of the equation, like the Minny game, and see what this OL does...
Lack of sacks and hits? That was more a product of the scheme and Eli getting rid of the ball quickly.....
Running the ball? Only SD had fewer rushing tds...
You think this OL was really a top 10 line?
Because we scored a lot of points? Look at the defenses we played against...and many games we were trailing and passing desperately....this offense scored more because of Eli/OBj, rather than the play of the line....take either of them out of the equation, like the Minny game, and see what this OL does...
Lack of sacks and hits? That was more a product of the scheme and Eli getting rid of the ball quickly.....
Running the ball? Only SD had fewer rushing tds...
I'll bite:
What was your plan for the OL?
Marshall Newhouse is not as bad as most here make him out to be, but that's still not saying much. As OT-starved as this league is now, I wonder how many teams would make him their starting RT? My guess is not many. It's a sad state of affairs when many here are pinning their hopes on Bobby Hart to unseat him, but stranger things have happened.
drkenneth : 9:25 am : link : reply
I'll bite:
What was your plan for the OL?
You want me to come up with a plan after 200M were spent? What do you think I am, a miracle worker?
You think this OL was really a top 10 line?
Because we scored a lot of points? Look at the defenses we played against...and many games we were trailing and passing desperately....this offense scored more because of Eli/OBj, rather than the play of the line....take either of them out of the equation, like the Minny game, and see what this OL does...
Lack of sacks and hits? That was more a product of the scheme and Eli getting rid of the ball quickly.....
Running the ball? Only SD had fewer rushing tds...
Based on ESPN's rankings (see link below)
To try and answer the rest of your concerns, a team has to decide what kind of offense they are going to run. Is it going to be a pass first or pass heavy offense? Is it going to be a pound the ground smash mouth run game? Is it going to be 50:50 air-ground?
As long as Eli Manning is QB, the NY Giants are a "pass first offense". So the offensive line has to be carefully put together to favor that style of offense. Offensive lineman who are great in pushing open holes for a scat back to run through typically suck big time in pass defense. Lineman who excel in pass defense tend to be sorely lacking in an ability to shove a 320 lb half man / half ox on his back so a guy can run over his chest. Regardless, the bottom line is that you build your line around your offensive identity. And we are a passing team with a passing QB. We use RB by committee (in my opinion) to salvage the life of the RB's career which is only good for a few short years if you rely on a feature back and a ground and pound game. And since we aren't using a rushing type offense, it is not as important to have an Adrian Peterson type back who would distract from the strategy of a QB-to-WR/TE/HB that this team is built around.
As far as taking sacks and hits, I don't think any QB in the NFL gets touched less than Eli. So as much as you hate the offensive line, they must be doing something right. I suppose in the post-Eli era of the Giants that we will change to a more pound and ground style offense to make up for a QB who isn't as deft as Eli and dropping a ball in a receiver's mitts. Then the O-line will need to be changed to the kind of monsters who are more adept at pushing the defense to the side so the RB can pick up a few yards.
Can't have both so you stick with an offensive line that defines and addresses your personal style of offense.
Ranking Offensive Lines - ESPN - ( New Window )
One final note. Some of the problems last year were caused by the TEs blocking struggles. They brought in a rock solid blocker in Will Johnson and hopefully Tye improves. And, hopefully, rookie Adams willingness to block will correlate with his learning curve.
I do not think Donnell makes the team this year. Always saw him as over-sized possession wr, not a HBack and certainly not a TE. His ball security and injury issues made people forget about how poor his blocking was. Not his fault, square peg in a round hole.
Hopefully, one of the FA will step up and put either Jerry or Newhouse on the bench.
It's a new day with a ton of questions to gain answers for but I don't think many of us expect this team to win more than 8-10 games but that would be a big improvement.
One final note. Some of the problems last year were caused by the TEs blocking struggles. They brought in a rock solid blocker in Will Johnson and hopefully Tye improves. And, hopefully, rookie Adams willingness to block will correlate with his learning curve.
I do not think Donnell makes the team this year. Always saw him as over-sized possession wr, not a HBack and certainly not a TE. His ball security and injury issues made people forget about how poor his blocking was. Not his fault, square peg in a round hole.
Good points. One of the guys I'm anxious to see on the field is Will Johnson. The man is tough as nails, loves to block, and I've watched film of him pushing a DE back 5 yards and onto his back.
And guess what? The 3rd top offensive line in the NFL last year was Pittsburg and they relied heavily on Will Johnson. Now I'm not going to coronate him as the missing piece to a great offensive line yet, but he definitely had a hand in the Steelers excellent offensive line.
And not to go unnoticed, Will Johnson plows through a defensive line when carrying the ball like I haven't seen since the days of Csonka and he catches the ball like Witten. But mostly, he is such a fierce and strong blocker - whether as leading a RB or as pass defender - that I've seen in years. Very versatile, but should be a big cog in helping the offensive line, especially in the run game.
70 Weston Richburg OC
69 Brett Jones OC
67 Justin Pugh OG
77 John Jerry OG
60 Ryan Seymour OG
74 Ereck Flowers OT
73 Marshall Newhouse OT
Stingily OT
68 Bobby Hart OT
Cleary OT
JMHO.
Secondly, our passing defense was so bad that a high school QB could have thrown 300 yds against the Giants. We were dead last in the NFL for passing defense. We also were one of the worst (or maybe the worst, I don't have the statistics) for rushing the passer. Our rushing defense was 23rd out of 32 teams...and that was the BEST part of our defense.
As far as our offensive line goes, the Giants were ranked as the 8th best offensive line out of the 32 teams in the NFL last season. Not perfect, but in the top ten. Which stands to reason as we've spent a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks on o-linemen in the last few years.
Now all I hear is panic and bitching. I hear, "why haven't the Giants done something about that line..." as if we don't have to worry about being unable to stop a pass or giving up nearly 5 yds per carry in the ground game.
So c'mon - cut the front office some slack. Our o-line is NOT in crisis. Our passing defense was in extreme crisis. Our pass rush was in crisis. Our inability to stop a run right down our throats was in crisis. Our lack of a bona fide 2nd receiver was in crisis.
You don't mortgage the farm and spend all your resources throwing it at the one part of your team that is actually pretty damn solid whilst ignoring the crisis spots.
Could the o-line be better? Sure. Should we ignore our need in passing defense to improve it? No. What about our inability to stop a running back coming right through the middle of our defensive line? What about no one able to cover a TE?
We have limited resources to turn this team around and when the team's defense is ranked dead last in the NFL and the offensive line is ranked in the top quarter of offensive lines, you don't shoot your wad on the offensive line and ignore the crisis spots.
Nor do you fix a team with as many problems as the Giants overnight, in one off-season. To me, they've done one hell of a job trying to right the sinking ship and we have just begun to remake this team. In the meanwhile, don't look a gift horse in the mouth and cry like a 5-year old because our offensive line isn't better than the Cowboy's offensive line and we didn't use our premium draft picks to take a right tackle. Cut the front office some friggin slack!
Sorry... but the 8th ranking is very meaningless.
As in "very."
Last season the Giants run blocking was at the very bottom of the NFL.
In other words... it sucked. And sucked badly.
And if it replicates last season's #8 ranking in 2016, we will be cheering on another 6-10 team.
We either find the ability to control the game at certain key moments in the 4th quarter, or we're picking in Top 10 again for the 2017 Draft.
Only 350+ days to go!
Secondly, our passing defense was so bad that a high school QB could have thrown 300 yds against the Giants. We were dead last in the NFL for passing defense. We also were one of the worst (or maybe the worst, I don't have the statistics) for rushing the passer. Our rushing defense was 23rd out of 32 teams...and that was the BEST part of our defense.
As far as our offensive line goes, the Giants were ranked as the 8th best offensive line out of the 32 teams in the NFL last season. Not perfect, but in the top ten. Which stands to reason as we've spent a lot of 1st and 2nd round picks on o-linemen in the last few years.
Now all I hear is panic and bitching. I hear, "why haven't the Giants done something about that line..." as if we don't have to worry about being unable to stop a pass or giving up nearly 5 yds per carry in the ground game.
So c'mon - cut the front office some slack. Our o-line is NOT in crisis. Our passing defense was in extreme crisis. Our pass rush was in crisis. Our inability to stop a run right down our throats was in crisis. Our lack of a bona fide 2nd receiver was in crisis.
You don't mortgage the farm and spend all your resources throwing it at the one part of your team that is actually pretty damn solid whilst ignoring the crisis spots.
Could the o-line be better? Sure. Should we ignore our need in passing defense to improve it? No. What about our inability to stop a running back coming right through the middle of our defensive line? What about no one able to cover a TE?
We have limited resources to turn this team around and when the team's defense is ranked dead last in the NFL and the offensive line is ranked in the top quarter of offensive lines, you don't shoot your wad on the offensive line and ignore the crisis spots.
Nor do you fix a team with as many problems as the Giants overnight, in one off-season. To me, they've done one hell of a job trying to right the sinking ship and we have just begun to remake this team. In the meanwhile, don't look a gift horse in the mouth and cry like a 5-year old because our offensive line isn't better than the Cowboy's offensive line and we didn't use our premium draft picks to take a right tackle. Cut the front office some friggin slack!
The front office doesn't deserve slack since they are the reason the roster was bereft of talent and they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt until we again make the playoffs. As for not being able to address the OL because of insufficient resources, that is simply not true. We still have 18 million in cap space and probably would have more minus some of the flotsam and jetsam we recently signed. We could have addressed the line early in FA but the Front Office made a calculated decision not to. Whether they would have pulled the trigger if Conklin was there at number 10 we will never know. The fact that they didn't draft any other OL tells us the team has made a conscious decision based on whatever evaluations they made to go into the season with what they have. It is a gamble. If it works and they make the playoffs and they add to the OL next year all is well. If the team flops again this year heads may roll and it wont be because of inadequate resources. It will be because of a bad decision.
As for the statistics about the Giants offense being the 8th ranked offense, we all know that statistics are garbage without context. We kicked way too many FGs in the red zone because we couldn't run the ball and we couldn't sustain drives towards the end of the game when we needed to run out the clock because we had no running game.
We are going into the season most likely with what we have on the roster. Its a conscious decision not one based on a lack of resources. Lets all hope it works out for the best.
of Bitches <Smirk> But We can add or Make a Deal
for Another Starter so that yeah if Jerry Or Newhouse
gets Bumped Down it Increases the Hope that we can
actually run Left so were not so predictable
and can convert some crucial 1st downs and
when we do run they have to respect both sides
of the Line . Also It gives us a bit better Backup
Guy .
I still hope we can add someone even say a Younger
Player in the last year of his contract maybe
we can Risk a Pick from next years pool and
we have the Cap Space . They did try to sign
a few guys so lets not dismiss that we are
satisfied and Won't add a Body there .
If you choose to believe that narrative, that injuries were the primary factor in this team's decline, that is your right. I don't buy it and I know that there are many others on this board that also don't believe it.
Giants will also likely pick up another vet or two.
The OL is strong on the left side and passable on the right side. As a unit, they are not good run blockers but fortunately this is 2016 not 1986. And they are above average pass blockers, which is far more important.
Giants will also likely pick up another vet or two.
The OL is strong on the left side and passable on the right side. As a unit, they are not good run blockers but fortunately this is 2016 not 1986. And they are above average pass blockers, which is far more important.
Your words...
"As a unit, they are not good run blockers but fortunately this is 2016 not 1986."
My prediction...
If the Giants stay as a NFL doormat run-blocking team, then we're looking at 6-7 wins max.
Our defense was an embarrassment to the game of football and we made massive upgrades to our worst units. We also cut 2 guys holding our oline back last year. Ever hear of addition by subtraction? IMO the oline will be better just based on those 2 being gone.
Giants will also likely pick up another vet or two.
The OL is strong on the left side and passable on the right side. As a unit, they are not good run blockers but fortunately this is 2016 not 1986. And they are above average pass blockers, which is far more important.
I admit, I know nothing about Seymour and Farrell, but I am open to be very pleasantly surprised as to how good they can be. Considering neither player has played much in the NFL my expectations are not high, but always hopeful to be higher.
It's a concern if you are of the opinion we are going to be awesome at every position. And Beatty absolutely held us back, who wants to plan on their starting LT being injured all year?
It's a concern, sure, as McAdoo has alluded to, but as I wrote earlier, it may not be as much of a concern to the team as it is to us fans. Right or wrong, they sure don't seem to be too worried about it, at least not at this stage of the game.
I like what Reese did on D this offseason but the continued questionable OL roster decisions will hurt us again this year. Just as they have the past several years. It's baffling, really.
But, as I said, the Giants seem to be content with what they have going forward. It could be that they're waiting to see who shakes loose in the near future, but that's a bit of a risky proposition in my view. Suppose nobody worth a damn shakes loose? They may feel that Solari can make chicken salad out of chicken shit. Who knows?
Giants will also likely pick up another vet or two.
The OL is strong on the left side and passable on the right side. As a unit, they are not good run blockers but fortunately this is 2016 not 1986. And they are above average pass blockers, which is far more important.
We do know something about Seymour. Seymour is on his sixth team in three years. He's played in eleven games, making three starts - all with the Browns in 2014.
We also know something about "Dillon," and that is that "Dillon" is his first name. His last name is Farrell. Also, he's on his third team in two years. He appeared in eight games for the 49ers in 2014.
I like what Reese did on D this offseason but the continued questionable OL roster decisions will hurt us again this year. Just as they have the past several years. It's baffling, really.
It's not amazing logic it's the reality of where we are at. There isn't a golden ticket for this offensive line. We need players to step up, coaches to get more out of the the players, and better implemented schemes. This isn't solely on the players we have, the whole philosophy of the team is changing.
It's not amazing logic it's the reality of where we are at. There isn't a golden ticket for this offensive line. We need players to step up, coaches to get more out of the the players, and better implemented schemes. This isn't solely on the players we have, the whole philosophy of the team is changing.
Exactly. You build your team around teammates that compliment each other in your chosen scheme. We can expect more changes in the very near future as this is McAdoo's team now and he will do some good things as well as make some mistakes. We have to wait to see exactly what he has in mind.
And getting players to fit your scheme is not as easy as going to the "Player Store" and pointing to one on the shelf and saying, "he's perfect, I'll take him". Spending up the cap space on misjointed pieces just to appease rowdy fans who think the answer is buying another player is not the solution, but the problem we've seen born out on other teams who spent wildly just to fill holes, never accounting for how they fit into the scheme.
Based on what? The fact that Farrell has never taken meaningful RG snaps at any level? He was the starting center at New Mexico, with spot action at both tackle positions. He filled in briefly for Kilgore at center in San Francisco. That makes him a threat primarily to the other backup centers - Jones, McDermott, and possibly Seymour - not to the starting right guard. (If they all flop, the team could bring Reynolds back for another year; he's still out there.)
We all want to upgrade the RG position. But last-chancers like Farrell and Seymour aren't likely to be that guy, no matter how much their former position coach thinks they deserve a final shot at a roster spot.