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Apple vs. Top Competition

Coach Mason : 5/17/2016 10:27 am
One of the things to look for when evaluating translatable NFl talent is how a player fares against NFL caliber competition in college.

It looks like Eli in probably his two toughest test where he played Amari Cooper in 2014 and Will Fuller in 2015 played two very strong games.

The grabbing still concerns me but it was coached at Ohio state as the contact is called differently in college. The sooner he can break the habit and refine better NFl technique the better. However if you watch same of the tapes he stayed right with both of these guys much of the game wit a bit but certainly not a ton of 'NFL-flaggable' contact. He flips his hips effortlessly for a man of his size and his make up speed is excellent. Amari was one of my favorites in last years draft and he was a stud college player the moment he stepped onto the field and he played very well as a first year player against him which says alot.

Eli's two showings against that level of competition is certainly encouraging. If he plays outside in the 3 WR sets with Janoris sliding inside I think he may have a positive impact starting year 1.



Many CBs grab  
Big Blue '56 : 5/17/2016 10:30 am : link
in the NFL Joe, it's really about not getting caught most of the time. As long as the rules favor the O or hamstring the D, Secondary guys will have little choice..Let's hope our position coach and vets can teach him the nuances
He needs  
mavric : 5/17/2016 10:34 am : link
some refinement at the NFL level, but he has all the intangibles and athletic tools to become a shutdown corner. And those kind of guys are next to impossible to get and the way the NFL has evolved into a pass-crazy game, corners are incredibly important.

Any concerns about Apple are far too early to lose sleep over. As long as he doesn't get hit with the injury bug, he'll become a fan favorite. Can't wait for him to be on the field.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2016 10:35 am : link
Revis has made a living clutching and grabbing WR's.. he just mastered the art of doing it in a way that rarely gets flagged.
The "grabbing"....  
Strip-Sack : 5/17/2016 10:39 am : link
agita is way overblown on this site. It's just an adjustment he has to make along with all the other adjustments every rookie has to make when jumping to the next level. I remember Prince coming out with the same concern and it didn't develop into a problem with him in the NFL.
The issue is  
MotownGIANTS : 5/17/2016 10:50 am : link
coachable but he grabs a lot and it is a concern at least for this season. If he was "coached" to do it .... in essence he has to be broken down and built back up ... vs adding on to his previous coaching.

If he is already known has a holder refs are going to really be looking for it and as a rookie calls when go the vets way regardless more times than not.
On his interview after the draft, Apple said…...  
No Where Man : 5/17/2016 10:50 am : link
he'll work on techniques affecting his footwork that is applicable to the NFL game, and that the "grabbing" would not be a problem.
RE: .  
barens : 5/17/2016 10:52 am : link
In comment 12960296 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Revis has made a living clutching and grabbing WR's.. he just mastered the art of doing it in a way that rarely gets flagged.


Revis made a living jamming receivers at the LOS, and re-routing them. Big difference between that and grabbing and tugging on a jersey.
RE: The  
UConn4523 : 5/17/2016 10:52 am : link
In comment 12960300 Strip-Sack said:
Quote:
agita is way overblown on this site. It's just an adjustment he has to make along with all the other adjustments every rookie has to make when jumping to the next level. I remember Prince coming out with the same concern and it didn't develop into a problem with him in the NFL.


Its as if people think a 20 year old will be a finished project. I'm not "worried" about Apple at all. He's a hard worker and smart kid who's been raised by what seems like a great family. He has some warts that are all fixable with NFL coaching. People need to relax and enjoy rooting for him.
RE: RE: .  
UConn4523 : 5/17/2016 10:53 am : link
In comment 12960322 barens said:
Quote:
In comment 12960296 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Revis has made a living clutching and grabbing WR's.. he just mastered the art of doing it in a way that rarely gets flagged.



Revis made a living jamming receivers at the LOS, and re-routing them. Big difference between that and grabbing and tugging on a jersey.


Revis absolutely is and always has been a grabber. He's smart about it, but its definitely part of his game.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2016 10:57 am : link
In comment 12960322 barens said:
Quote:
In comment 12960296 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Revis has made a living clutching and grabbing WR's.. he just mastered the art of doing it in a way that rarely gets flagged.



Revis made a living jamming receivers at the LOS, and re-routing them. Big difference between that and grabbing and tugging on a jersey.


Revis has always been a grabber. It's pretty well documented. He's very good at doing it without getting flagged. It's not egregious but he does it just enough to help his momentum carry along with the WR.
RE: RE: The  
Big Blue '56 : 5/17/2016 10:57 am : link
In comment 12960323 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 12960300 Strip-Sack said:


Quote:


agita is way overblown on this site. It's just an adjustment he has to make along with all the other adjustments every rookie has to make when jumping to the next level. I remember Prince coming out with the same concern and it didn't develop into a problem with him in the NFL.



Its as if people think a 20 year old will be a finished project. I'm not "worried" about Apple at all. He's a hard worker and smart kid who's been raised by what seems like a great family. He has some warts that are all fixable with NFL coaching. People need to relax and enjoy rooting for him.


Oh they will, until the first flag is thrown..
RE: The issue is  
Randy in CT : 5/17/2016 11:01 am : link
In comment 12960316 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
coachable but he grabs a lot and it is a concern at least for this season. If he was "coached" to do it .... in essence he has to be broken down and built back up ... vs adding on to his previous coaching.

If he is already known has a holder refs are going to really be looking for it and as a rookie calls when go the vets way regardless more times than not.
Or simply told to tone it down. It would seem it is completely coachable given how high the Giants had him. Remember, while they may be wrong about Apple, their evaluation led them to picking him so their feelings are self-evident.
Every CB grabs to some extent,  
barens : 5/17/2016 11:01 am : link
but Revis didn't make his living by grabbing. He has always had one of the best punches or jams in the game.
Was Apple actually matched up with Cooper and Fuller?  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/17/2016 11:03 am : link
When Fuller got ND back into the Fiesta Bowl with a long TD, Apple was on the other side of the field, at RCB. When Cooper scored from 15 yards out in the Sugar Bowl, same deal: he was wide right, and beat Doran Grant; Cooper was at RCB, far from the play. Cooper's second TD came in isolation against Apple, on a quick inside move where Apple gave too much ground.
RE: Every CB grabs to some extent,  
UConn4523 : 5/17/2016 11:03 am : link
In comment 12960348 barens said:
Quote:
but Revis didn't make his living by grabbing. He has always had one of the best punches or jams in the game.


Definitely. He's an awesome CB with a tremendous skillset, but grabbing was/is definitely a big part of his game. Its not like Apple is only good due to grabbing, his size speed combo is fantastic and he needs to work on the little things.
RE: Was Apple actually matched up with Cooper and Fuller?  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2016 11:05 am : link
In comment 12960353 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
When Fuller got ND back into the Fiesta Bowl with a long TD, Apple was on the other side of the field, at RCB. When Cooper scored from 15 yards out in the Sugar Bowl, same deal: he was wide right, and beat Doran Grant; Cooper was at RCB, far from the play. Cooper's second TD came in isolation against Apple, on a quick inside move where Apple gave too much ground.


IIRC, Fuller didn't do much when Apple was covering him in that game. The majority of his damage was done when Apple was on the other side.
In a perfect world  
gmen9892 : 5/17/2016 11:06 am : link
We sign a slot corner and he can work on refining his coverage skills this year. Eli is VERY young and seems very coachable.
So, while it's interesting to look at production vs. top opponents...  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/17/2016 11:09 am : link
...the analysis only goes so far. I don't think most college DCs flip their corners to play matchups. Instead, you often see the best one-on-one cover guy at RCB, where he gets less safety help, and the #1 receiver lined up on his right, because most right-handed QBs throw better to that side.
Truth be told, I'm not too worried about the grabbing,  
barens : 5/17/2016 11:10 am : link
and most cb's, if not all of them do it anyway.

I do worry about his physical presence as a tackler though. That's been documented a bit, and with the talent at WR and the running back position in our own division, I just hope it's not going to be a problem.
Re: grabbing  
moose53 : 5/17/2016 11:11 am : link
with reputation comes leeway. Revis, Ravens, Seahawks had defensive reputations and received more ref leeway to grab. The risk is the odd call at exactly the wrong time. It seems if you are primarily a good cover db that tends to grab versus you grab a lot to cover well. I hope Eli becomes the former for the Giants sake.
RE: In a perfect world  
MotownGIANTS : 5/17/2016 11:12 am : link
In comment 12960365 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
We sign a slot corner and he can work on refining his coverage skills this year. Eli is VERY young and seems very coachable.



Yes his age is a bonus and his FOO (Family of Origin) seems good as well. The upside and calculations on this "gamble" are in our favor ....
Arc is 100% Right ...  
Bluesbreaker : 5/17/2016 11:14 am : link
Revis is/was an Elite Defender and Elite Players
in all Sports get away with Fouling See
Michael Jordan he hacked plenty of times to
steal the ball and rarely called and if he went
up for a Jump shot didn't matter if you never
laid a finger on him he was going to the line .
Third Strike calls not made on Elite Hitters in Baseball
Revis held Plenty and knew when he could get away
with is although his Physical ability and smarts
allowed him to take away your best WR .
Apple has to learn all the tricks of the trade
as well , the biggest problem I see with him
is generating turnovers and very limited in
run support . Hopefully that gets better with
strength and conditioning .
Having Guys Like Jenkins and DRC should help
him Develop
RE: Arc is 100% Right ...  
Mike in Long Beach : 5/17/2016 11:15 am : link
In comment 12960388 Bluesbreaker said:
Quote:
Revis is/was an Elite Defender and Elite Players
in all Sports get away with Fouling See
Michael Jordan he hacked plenty of times to
steal the ball and rarely called and if he went
up for a Jump shot didn't matter if you never
laid a finger on him he was going to the line .
Third Strike calls not made on Elite Hitters in Baseball
Revis held Plenty and knew when he could get away
with is although his Physical ability and smarts
allowed him to take away your best WR .
Apple has to learn all the tricks of the trade
as well , the biggest problem I see with him
is generating turnovers and very limited in
run support . Hopefully that gets better with
strength and conditioning .
Having Guys Like Jenkins and DRC should help
him Develop


Good stuff, bossman!
There was an article last year  
Modus Operandi : 5/17/2016 11:21 am : link
About how the Seahawks DBs regularly grab and hold receivers and how they are coached to do this. It's their philosophy that for every PI or holding call, they get away with several that aren't called.

Non story.
Hmm.... what's going on here  
Mason : 5/17/2016 11:28 am : link
I remember when  
Modus Operandi : 5/17/2016 11:33 am : link
Francesa called Revis out on a hold during an on air interview and Revis acted like a total clown. Then the Jets org banned any players from going on the show.

Good times.
Can the kid practice  
djstat : 5/17/2016 11:44 am : link
Can you knuckle heads let him practice? Maybe let him get coached? Maybe let him play a game
Apple also  
Phil in LA : 5/17/2016 11:45 am : link
missed a year with that Iron deficiency at the start of his college career, so he's got some missing development time. His upside is huge.
RE: Apple also  
Coach Mason : 5/17/2016 12:06 pm : link
In comment 12960445 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
missed a year with that Iron deficiency at the start of his college career, so he's got some missing development time. His upside is huge.


Upside is big for sure. Hopefully he realizes it sooner rather than later. Speed size and flipping the hips are all there
Top Competition  
JPinstripes : 5/17/2016 12:11 pm : link
will come in the form of going up against OBJ everyday in practice, this will undoubtedly help Apple learn quickly.
Do we really have to bring a possible negative  
Giant John : 5/17/2016 1:03 pm : link
part of his game quite so much? Maybe - just maybe we are helping refs form their opinion of his play? The less said about this the better.
RE: Do we really have to bring a possible negative  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/17/2016 1:05 pm : link
In comment 12960568 Giant John said:
Quote:
part of his game quite so much? Maybe - just maybe we are helping refs form their opinion of his play? The less said about this the better.


All anyone needed to hear about his game, if they didn't approve of the pick, was that he grabs too much, and they were ready to believe he's some kind of long term project or a bum DB penalty machine like Frank Walker. Taking a snip of information and running with it is what we do around here.
We can wish Eli Apple well  
DonQuixote : 5/17/2016 3:29 pm : link
or we can call him Grabby McGrabFace ...

such is the state of BBI
RE: Was Apple actually matched up with Cooper and Fuller?  
allstarjim : 5/17/2016 3:53 pm : link
In comment 12960353 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
When Fuller got ND back into the Fiesta Bowl with a long TD, Apple was on the other side of the field, at RCB. When Cooper scored from 15 yards out in the Sugar Bowl, same deal: he was wide right, and beat Doran Grant; Cooper was at RCB, far from the play. Cooper's second TD came in isolation against Apple, on a quick inside move where Apple gave too much ground.


Apple was matched up with Cooper a good amount of the game... and he played him hard and gave him a tough time. I watched Apple's game reps for that game. People should also remember that Apple had just turned 19 years old when he played that game. Pretty remarkable to do what he did at 19 against college football's best wideout in 2014. Moreover, Apple played Cooper better than Hargreaves did in that game. It's not about Cooper's stats, because neither Hargreaves nor Apple was matched up against Cooper 100% of the time, but just going off the eye-test, Cooper had more trouble with Apple than Hargreaves.

Cooper vs Florida - 10 catches, 201 yards, 3 TDs
Cooper vs Ohio State - 9 catches, 71 yards, 2 TDs

RE: We can wish Eli Apple well  
Giants_West : 5/17/2016 3:53 pm : link
In comment 12960859 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
or we can call him Grabby McGrabFace ...

such is the state of BBI



Well lets be honest here...

If eli put up combine numbers like McGrabface He would have gone ahead of Ramsey!
RE: Can the kid practice  
allstarjim : 5/17/2016 3:54 pm : link
In comment 12960444 djstat said:
Quote:
Can you knuckle heads let him practice? Maybe let him get coached? Maybe let him play a game


Hahahaha! This is BBI, djstat! Everything must be analyzed, re-analyzed, and over-analyzed through a negative-nancy lens! Are you new here? ;)
RE: RE: Was Apple actually matched up with Cooper and Fuller?  
Coach Mason : 5/17/2016 3:56 pm : link
In comment 12960920 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 12960353 Big Blue Blogger said:


Quote:


When Fuller got ND back into the Fiesta Bowl with a long TD, Apple was on the other side of the field, at RCB. When Cooper scored from 15 yards out in the Sugar Bowl, same deal: he was wide right, and beat Doran Grant; Cooper was at RCB, far from the play. Cooper's second TD came in isolation against Apple, on a quick inside move where Apple gave too much ground.



Apple was matched up with Cooper a good amount of the game... and he played him hard and gave him a tough time. I watched Apple's game reps for that game. People should also remember that Apple had just turned 19 years old when he played that game. Pretty remarkable to do what he did at 19 against college football's best wideout in 2014. Moreover, Apple played Cooper better than Hargreaves did in that game. It's not about Cooper's stats, because neither Hargreaves nor Apple was matched up against Cooper 100% of the time, but just going off the eye-test, Cooper had more trouble with Apple than Hargreaves.

Cooper vs Florida - 10 catches, 201 yards, 3 TDs
Cooper vs Ohio State - 9 catches, 71 yards, 2 TDs


Apple as a first year player did an excellent job covering a WR who went #4 in last year's draft. The talent is there.
Don't compare me to that friggen Jerk...  
Bluesbreaker : 5/17/2016 10:17 pm : link
RE: Arc is 100% Right ...
Mike in Long Beach : 11:15 am : link : reply
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