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Will Landon Collins Benefit From Darian Thompson?

gidiefor : Mod : 5/17/2016 7:23 pm
Billy Nayden at Today's Pigskin says he should
Landon Collins should benefit from Darian Thompson - ( New Window )
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RE: Collins would benefit more  
Jim in Forest Hills : 5/18/2016 9:10 am : link
In comment 12961483 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
if we had another S to step up and we can move Collins into a LB/S hybrid role. That's where this player could shine.


Yup agreed. I think Bennet Jackson is the wildcard here. He was set to start before he got hurt last year, I think they still like him. His triangle numbers at he combine were stellar including a 6.75 3 cone. Decent size at 6' 200lbs. He's not a thumper but he has range and has good hands as a former wr.

I think the Giants view him as the defacto 3rd safety who can play with Thompson up top and allow Collins to seek and destroy down low.
RE: Myron guyton and greg Jackson started as rookies and flourished  
FJ : 5/18/2016 9:11 am : link
In comment 12961241 djm said:
Quote:
Even Collins last year. Kenny Phillips was a key player as a rookie.

Greg Jackson started 1 game as a rookie - Guyton started the other 15 (alongside Terry Kinard). It wasn't until his sophomore season that Jackson flourished.
RE: Robbie  
giants#1 : 5/18/2016 9:13 am : link
In comment 12961544 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Because the defense was legendarily putrid and the offense was not. It's a matter of perception and it's basically wrong. I'd judge their rookie years pretty even, some very good and very bad moments but both have plenty of physical ability.


I'd argue the difference is even simpler than that...fans love that Flowers grinded through some injuries without missing much time. So they pass off some of his struggles as being due to the injuries (certainly a factor) and "pump him up" some due to the "toughness" he showed.

Collins wasn't good in coverage, but more often than not he was "right there", just unable to finish the play (e.g. NE game). If the experience of a season and a (hopefully) competent player next to him allows him to finish a couple of those plays, he'll be viewed a lot differently.

A competent pass rush also makes guys look a lot better in coverage. IIRC, the Giants allowed the opposing QBs to hold the ball ~3 seconds/play and it was likely even worse pre-JPP. Increased pressure = more sacks and more hurried (off-target) throws.

.  
arcarsenal : 5/18/2016 9:14 am : link
Phillips only started 3 games as a rookie. He wasn't asked to do nearly as much as Collins was in year 1.
RE: RE: I don't know about the  
giants#1 : 5/18/2016 9:17 am : link
In comment 12961612 chris r said:
Quote:
In comment 12961607 gidiefor said:


Quote:


a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot



Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.


No they're not. Kam Chancellor isn't great in coverage, and he's one of the top safeties.

You don't want Collins matched up against WRs, but I think he can develop to adequately cover TEs/RBs. If he can do that and excel in run support, he'll be very valuable.

Coverage safeties just get more "love" because they make sexier plays (i.e. INTs), but don't confuse that with SSs being useless nowadays.
re: Phillips  
giants#1 : 5/18/2016 9:22 am : link
It's amazing he's not even 30 yet. Still can't believe how much injuries have killed this team.

Phillips also had a great front 4, a solid CB duo in Ross/Webster, and most importantly Pierce in front of him. Aside from DRC, the rest of the secondary last year was filled with crap as was the MLB. It makes a big difference when you have a "QB" like Pierce to help properly align everyone.
What he'll benefit most from is a pass rush.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/18/2016 9:36 am : link
The safeties were completely hung out to dry last year. Team was bottom-3 in time allowed from snap to throw.
I think the weight  
LeonofKiev : 5/18/2016 10:03 am : link
he was playing at was WAY too high.

If he can get to 215 it would help him a bit but if they rely on him to cover TEs all the time, we're going to give up a lot of first downs.
and the pass rush benefits from close man cover from  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2016 10:08 am : link
all 3 corners, then the hopefully improved rush helps the safeties by increasing the # of errant or miss guided passes, and around and around, it's a feedback loop.




-------------------

still leaning towards a true 5-0-6 however (with 3 DTs, including a nose) , or even a 4-0-7 for that matter, if you consider Collins and Taylor 'linebackers' then you could call that last one a 4-2-5, with three corners and two 'true safeties' two 'ss/lbs' , for those very long down / distances, conversely, maybe taylor turns into an enforcer very deep which might allow Darian T. to be in the middle deep in a more classic 3 safety thing, with Collins up.
Collins  
ghost718 : 5/18/2016 10:12 am : link
All goes back to the draft,where a scout questioned his coverage ability by asking him if he could do it.Factor in a few rough games ,and this is what you get.

"He can't cover"

As for Darian Thompson,well,he should take a few of those can't cover comments away from Collins,that will help.
possibly the Apple signing indicates that the corner  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2016 10:18 am : link
functions will be simplified. just cover man style closely.

which might indicate that the pass rush will be done variably and creatively, lets hope for that, there are a million possibilities,

which would leave one of the safeties to look for the ball on each play.

The question would then be, how often will they allow the deep safety to look for the ball or will that position be seen as a last resort score preventer in the conservative mold more often.

you all want to check out the Landon Collins in the FIlm Room  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/18/2016 10:20 am : link
piece in Giants Access Blue - at roughly the 3 minute mark
Link - ( New Window )
if Snacks can really man the zero at times  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2016 10:29 am : link
that opens up lots of possibilities, such as hank and (wynn?) at the ends and JPP and Vernon rushing interior gaps, which might look like a larger version of a 3/4 with an interior blitz going. So, call that a 5, but it is like a 3/4 thing but with two 'ends' blitzing interior.

things like that, mixing it up constantly, combined with close man cover from corners, bode well for safeties who look for INTs.
its mostly just semantics  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2016 10:39 am : link
but, if you called it a '3/4 zone blitz', with

Wynn/Snacks/Hank

Collins/Vernon/JPP/Taylor

Vernon and JPP Blitz interior gaps

Collins and Taylor (or is one of these 2 switched out for a player named Thompson?) work the outside run contain and disrupt tight ends and running backs off the line to impede pass routes within the 5 yard rule, that sort of thing)

you still can have 3 corners and 1 deep safety.
RE: RE: Myron guyton and greg Jackson started as rookies and flourished  
djm : 5/18/2016 10:55 am : link
In comment 12961295 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 12961241 djm said:


Quote:


Even Collins last year. Kenny Phillips was a key player as a rookie.


You and I could have played safety with that front 7 in front and done fine.


Well..outside of LT, Banks, Pepper, Reasons, Marshall, Howard and Dorsey there really wasn't much to that front 7. Smoke and mirrors.
RE: collins stunk last year  
djm : 5/18/2016 10:58 am : link
In comment 12961549 area junc said:
Quote:
if he wasn't a 2nd round pick......luckily for him he was highly regarded and still has "potential"


You're an absolute idiot if you don't see the potential in Collins. Actually... forget potential, Collins flashed legit play-stopping ability last year. Yes he struggled in the passing game but his rangy run stopping/thumping ability jumped off the screen. Collins just needs help in the secondary and up front. HE can clearly play.
hahaha  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2016 10:59 am : link
funny person
/\ DJM  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2016 10:59 am : link
.
still  
djm : 5/18/2016 11:04 am : link
i think we took for granted how well Guyton and especially JAckson played for the Giants in 89-90. For two rookies to come in and start like that is something even if they were well insulated. We've seen players shit the bed before when asked to just hold their end up.
for me, the real question this year,  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2016 11:13 am : link
is which linebackers do we have that are even worth putting on the field, especially at the WILL backer, why bother putting them out there, in light of league trends in a 4/3, and what the fuck in general.

So, whereas the safeties is an interesting project, for sure, the linebackers might be more, why keep so many on the roster and what can they do better than (bigger linesmen or faster or even just better safeties).
Some of you naysayers just aren't paying attention  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/18/2016 11:15 am : link
Collins has shown some outstanding instincts - and made impact plays throughout the season last year -- he's also the first Giants rookie to play all 16 games and stay healthy for the entire season in some time-- and he was placed in quite a few virtually impossible positions last season. He's very smart and decisive when he plays.

You want to pick on the whiffs he made - you want to criticize a rookie who came in played his heart out and had to play in a poor scheme, with a huge lack of talent around him that he was trying to make up for and that virtually gave him no chance of succeeding -- go right ahead -- but I'm going to tell you something -- based on the impact plays he made last season this kid is going to be a star player for us

RE: drkenneth  
drkenneth : 5/18/2016 11:26 am : link
In comment 12961635 gidiefor said:
Quote:
you are growing on me


I like the way you move.
RE: RE: Collins would benefit more  
Mason : 5/18/2016 11:58 am : link
In comment 12961637 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
In comment 12961483 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


if we had another S to step up and we can move Collins into a LB/S hybrid role. That's where this player could shine.



Yup agreed. I think Bennet Jackson is the wildcard here. He was set to start before he got hurt last year, I think they still like him. His triangle numbers at he combine were stellar including a 6.75 3 cone. Decent size at 6' 200lbs. He's not a thumper but he has range and has good hands as a former wr.

I think the Giants view him as the defacto 3rd safety who can play with Thompson up top and allow Collins to seek and destroy down low.


No he wasn't. Giants weren't sure if he was a safety or corner at this point last year.
I'm with you Jim  
KWALL2 : 5/18/2016 12:05 pm : link
Thompson/Jackson and rookie Thompson at S. Collins moves up.

Give up some size for more speed/coverage. That's where the league is going. Collins can play that LB/Big Nickel role.
What we have here is failure to communicate....  
Doomster : 5/18/2016 7:51 pm : link
Collins is certainly not as good as some have projected him, and he certainly is not as bad as others have stated....

The whole defense stunk.....that has an affect on individual players.....sometimes you try to do more than you can do by helping others, and that can take away from your own play....

He was thrown to the wolves, and played 16 games, because he was thrown to the wolves....there was no one else to throw out there....over 100 hundred tackles? Not surprising if you play 16 games and have to make tackles the linebackers should have made....

I saw hesitation, failure to make plays.....I did not see all the so called impact plays some of you saw.....

But like I said, he was a rookie thrown into the fire....hopefully, he learned from the mistakes made last season.....that he has more confidence, having one year under his belt....he is no FS, and shouldn't be used as one....but there has to definitely be a leap in his play this year......

As for Darian Thompson? He looks the part, but can he play it? That remains to be seen....
Yes it should  
TheShade : 5/20/2016 10:37 pm : link
Collins was the victim of not having a stable partner in the secondary at FS. Pretty much everyone got injured in preseason so it was just Collins at SS and ??? at FS. The Giants brought in Craig Dahl and Brandon Merriweather who are basically strong safeties as well and paired them with Collins. Anybody who is even slightly knowledgeable about football knows this would never work. 3 guys who play the same position as the only options in the safety position? No wonder Collins looked troubled since he was playing both SS and FS spots during the season. Now that darian Thompson is aboard, Collins doesn't have to over-complicate himself in playing both safety spots and just be a SS.
drkenny Do you work hard at being an asswipe or is it just natural ??  
Bluesbreaker : 5/27/2016 8:57 am : link
RE: RE: I don't know about the
drkenneth : 5/18/2016 9:03 am : link : reply
In comment 12961612 chris r said:
Quote:
In comment 12961607 gidiefor said:


Quote:


a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot



Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.


Did your mother ever have any kids that lived?
this thread is still going huh?  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2016 9:01 am : link
yeah, no one needs tacklers in the NFL. If Collins is that at a bare minimum than he's going to be a playmaker for us.
RE: Collins would benefit more  
Giants2012 : 5/27/2016 9:20 am : link
In comment 12961483 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
if we had another S to step up and we can move Collins into a LB/S hybrid role. That's where this player could shine.


I believe Collins will spend a lot of time moving up with possibly two safeties behind him. If the top three CB's are healthy that could make for an interesting alignment.
Reading BBI  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/27/2016 9:42 am : link
would make you think 31 NFL teams have 4 safeties on the roster that cover at an elite level. And then there's the Giants.
Hey..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/27/2016 9:45 am : link
Quote:
collins stunk last year
area junc : 5/18/2016 7:41 am : link : reply
if he wasn't a 2nd round pick......luckily for him he was highly regarded and still has "potential"


What's the good word on Davis, Captain Insider?
RE: Reading BBI  
Vin R : 5/27/2016 9:46 am : link
In comment 12973423 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
would make you think 31 NFL teams have 4 safeties on the roster that cover at an elite level. And then there's the Giants.


lmao sounds about right
RE: collins stunk last year  
Randy in CT : 5/27/2016 9:52 am : link
In comment 12961549 area junc said:
Quote:
if he wasn't a 2nd round pick......luckily for him he was highly regarded and still has "potential"
This is nonsense.
area junk  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2016 10:05 am : link
suuuuuucks.
RE: Reading BBI  
Giants2012 : 5/27/2016 10:43 am : link
In comment 12973423 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
would make you think 31 NFL teams have 4 safeties on the roster that cover at an elite level. And then there's the Giants.


On the flip side, unless it' 100% praise we read posts like yours. You would think some could discuss the topic like young Billy Naden wrote it. It wasn't all 100% positive and, like multiple posts, acknowledge both the strengths and issues surrounding the young player.

Everybody here knows a player can get better yet a few appear to need that reassurance included/posted when mentioning the current issues which include coverage. Maybe those posters could reach out to Nayden and ridicule his article b/c the title implies Collins can benefit from Thompson. Doesn't he know 31 teams don't have four safeties that can cover on an elite level and players develop or was that given?
the problem is  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2016 10:48 am : link
those posters ruin any discussion. I won't name names but you have guys saying Collins sucks, has no talent, and can't get better. How do you have a discussion with someone like that?

I don't think Collins will ever be Troy Polomalu, but it seems like that's what it will take to satisfy certain people. Just like everything else, a select few people will always ruin a good thread.
RE: RE: Reading BBI  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/27/2016 10:54 am : link
In comment 12973516 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 12973423 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


would make you think 31 NFL teams have 4 safeties on the roster that cover at an elite level. And then there's the Giants.



On the flip side, unless it' 100% praise we read posts like yours. You would think some could discuss the topic like young Billy Naden wrote it. It wasn't all 100% positive and, like multiple posts, acknowledge both the strengths and issues surrounding the young player.

Everybody here knows a player can get better yet a few appear to need that reassurance included/posted when mentioning the current issues which include coverage. Maybe those posters could reach out to Nayden and ridicule his article b/c the title implies Collins can benefit from Thompson. Doesn't he know 31 teams don't have four safeties that can cover on an elite level and players develop or was that given?


I'm not addressing the article. I'm referencing the willfully ignorant portion of BBI that is convinced Collins sux because of a dropped INT he was almost concussed trying to grab. Not everybody here seems to understand that players improve over time. Just skimming through the comments in here proves that's false.
RE: the problem is  
Giants2012 : 5/27/2016 11:18 am : link
In comment 12973527 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
those posters ruin any discussion. I won't name names but you have guys saying Collins sucks, has no talent, and can't get better. How do you have a discussion with someone like that?



As usual, you make accusations which aren't present and then defend a position which doesn't exist. You didn't like some posts so chimed in with ridicule. Nobody posted he sucked, has no talent and can't get better. One fella mentioned Collins' coverage issues in college and you didn't like it so chimed in. Now your position is you can't have a discussion? Doesn't appear you were trying to discuss anything in this thread.
RE: RE: RE: Reading BBI  
Giants2012 : 5/27/2016 11:29 am : link
In comment 12973540 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 12973516 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 12973423 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


would make you think 31 NFL teams have 4 safeties on the roster that cover at an elite level. And then there's the Giants.



On the flip side, unless it' 100% praise we read posts like yours. You would think some could discuss the topic like young Billy Naden wrote it. It wasn't all 100% positive and, like multiple posts, acknowledge both the strengths and issues surrounding the young player.

Everybody here knows a player can get better yet a few appear to need that reassurance included/posted when mentioning the current issues which include coverage. Maybe those posters could reach out to Nayden and ridicule his article b/c the title implies Collins can benefit from Thompson. Doesn't he know 31 teams don't have four safeties that can cover on an elite level and players develop or was that given?



I'm not addressing the article. I'm referencing the willfully ignorant portion of BBI that is convinced Collins sux because of a dropped INT he was almost concussed trying to grab. Not everybody here seems to understand that players improve over time. Just skimming through the comments in here proves that's false.


Maybe it's a bit ignorant to believe BBI poster believe Collins sux b/c of a dropped INT b/c, unless i missed it, that play wasn't even mentioned in this thread while other positives and negatives were mentioned.

IMO, and i believe it's shared, the kid will get better yet he didn't go in Round 1 for a reason. Especially in this NFL, how many top safeties in a draft don't get drafted in Round 1? He's listed as high as 230lbs, hits like a truck, moves well and came out of a program which is as NFL ready as any program in college. Why did he drop? Likely b/c 32 teams had the same concerns mentioned in this thread and were asking the same questions during that Auburn game.
He obviously will benefit from Thompson freeing him up  
Ira : 5/27/2016 11:35 am : link
to play his natural position. He'll also benefit from dropping some weight, as has been reported, which will give him a little more speed.
RE: RE: the problem is  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2016 11:58 am : link
In comment 12973568 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 12973527 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


those posters ruin any discussion. I won't name names but you have guys saying Collins sucks, has no talent, and can't get better. How do you have a discussion with someone like that?





As usual, you make accusations which aren't present and then defend a position which doesn't exist. You didn't like some posts so chimed in with ridicule. Nobody posted he sucked, has no talent and can't get better. One fella mentioned Collins' coverage issues in college and you didn't like it so chimed in. Now your position is you can't have a discussion? Doesn't appear you were trying to discuss anything in this thread.


I urge you to reead this thread and then get back to me. There were countless other Collins threads that and a few posters claimed there's nothing to be desired with Collins.

Not going to call people out, I don't do that. But you don't know what you are talking about on this one. And when did I say you can't have a discussion? You are making a whole lot of assumptions just to argue with me, great use of your time.
He seemed to miss a fair amount of tackles last year.  
Curtis in VA : 5/27/2016 12:24 pm : link
Hope he cleans that up.
RE: He seemed to miss a fair amount of tackles last year.  
Vin R : 5/27/2016 12:27 pm : link
In comment 12973639 Curtis in VA said:
Quote:
Hope he cleans that up.


the guy needs help  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2016 12:47 pm : link
hopefully Thompson will finally be the guy who stays healthy and covers center field. Despite Collins' coverage woes he still has tremendous value to the team, not to mention another year of coaching and weigh training to hopefully get better at his deficiencies.

None of us truly know how he will fare but to suggest he lacks talent, which some people have definitively stated, is pretty baseless.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Reading BBI  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/27/2016 12:47 pm : link
In comment 12973587 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 12973540 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 12973516 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 12973423 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


would make you think 31 NFL teams have 4 safeties on the roster that cover at an elite level. And then there's the Giants.



On the flip side, unless it' 100% praise we read posts like yours. You would think some could discuss the topic like young Billy Naden wrote it. It wasn't all 100% positive and, like multiple posts, acknowledge both the strengths and issues surrounding the young player.

Everybody here knows a player can get better yet a few appear to need that reassurance included/posted when mentioning the current issues which include coverage. Maybe those posters could reach out to Nayden and ridicule his article b/c the title implies Collins can benefit from Thompson. Doesn't he know 31 teams don't have four safeties that can cover on an elite level and players develop or was that given?



I'm not addressing the article. I'm referencing the willfully ignorant portion of BBI that is convinced Collins sux because of a dropped INT he was almost concussed trying to grab. Not everybody here seems to understand that players improve over time. Just skimming through the comments in here proves that's false.



Maybe it's a bit ignorant to believe BBI poster believe Collins sux b/c of a dropped INT b/c, unless i missed it, that play wasn't even mentioned in this thread while other positives and negatives were mentioned.

IMO, and i believe it's shared, the kid will get better yet he didn't go in Round 1 for a reason. Especially in this NFL, how many top safeties in a draft don't get drafted in Round 1? He's listed as high as 230lbs, hits like a truck, moves well and came out of a program which is as NFL ready as any program in college. Why did he drop? Likely b/c 32 teams had the same concerns mentioned in this thread and were asking the same questions during that Auburn game.


I'm not going to go through every collins thread and cut and paste mind-numbing commentary from fans who have been watching football long enough to know better, but this is super easy to find by using the search function. Users basically saddled the responsibility for that loss on Collins and that moment defined his season. You have people claiming he's no good, or that he had an awful first year because of that one game. Yes, some people agree with you. Many don't. It's not like this place is given to logical thinking.
One of the things I was impressed  
Randy in CT : 5/27/2016 1:06 pm : link
by Collins was his speed moving sideways and downstream. Hopefully Thompson will free up his need to center-field which he seemed to struggle with. I think our safeties can be very good this season when adding in both Thompsons and Berhe.
No one is reserving a spot for Collins is Canton just yet.  
Klaatu : 5/27/2016 1:13 pm : link
But comments like this...

Quote:
collins stunk last year
area junc : 5/18/2016 7:41 am : link : reply
if he wasn't a 2nd round pick......luckily for him he was highly regarded and still has "potential"


Are just plain stupid.
I would think it helps  
SomeFan : 5/27/2016 1:23 pm : link
If it means Collins plays his more natural position as I have read on here is an in-the-box safety. It won't help his lack of quickness though and that can't be fixed. I have concerns that he will never be good in coverage. His testing on quickness was that of a SLOW LB, not an average LB. I believe a few D-Linemen tested better in the quickness department than our Landon.
RE: RE: RE: the problem is  
Giants2012 : 5/27/2016 2:01 pm : link
In comment 12973623 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 12973568 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


In comment 12973527 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


those posters ruin any discussion. I won't name names but you have guys saying Collins sucks, has no talent, and can't get better. How do you have a discussion with someone like that?





As usual, you make accusations which aren't present and then defend a position which doesn't exist. You didn't like some posts so chimed in with ridicule. Nobody posted he sucked, has no talent and can't get better. One fella mentioned Collins' coverage issues in college and you didn't like it so chimed in. Now your position is you can't have a discussion? Doesn't appear you were trying to discuss anything in this thread.



I urge you to reead this thread and then get back to me. There were countless other Collins threads that and a few posters claimed there's nothing to be desired with Collins.

Not going to call people out, I don't do that. But you don't know what you are talking about on this one. And when did I say you can't have a discussion? You are making a whole lot of assumptions just to argue with me, great use of your time.


So that's how it works? Any Collins topic you're going to chime in and ridicule others b/c if what was posted in past threads? How about some progress on your end or just ignore the thread rather than take up space whining about the topic to fill your schedule
or  
UConn4523 : 5/27/2016 2:21 pm : link
the posts were also in this very thread?

What's your problem man? Just ignore me if you don't like what I have to say. I have numerous posts in this thread (including my most recent) as well as other threads where I have talked about the topic at hand. Not sure what more I need to do to fit into your lofty standards that apparently only I'm held to. If you enjoy blanket statements about a 1 year player not being able to get better than enjoy having that conversation. Just move on and leave me alone.
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