But he's going to have a lot more talent all around him on the D. Plus he's got another year under his belt. It's pretty rare that a rookie comes in and makes much of an impact. The defense was horrible last year, so they can only get better.
Providing Thompson is the Good's ..
Collins is my Dark Horse Pro Bowler ...
Only if The FS Positioned is Solidified and to me
its one of the most Important Problems/Needs to Address with our Defense ...
I hoped for TJ Green but you can't
Ignore Thompsons production..
1. Is Darian Thompson as sure thing good player? He's a 3rd rounder. What's our success rate with those?
2. The idea that Collins is a great talent just held back by the guys around him is baseless. He can't cover. Safeties need to be able to. There's no John Lynch's in todays game.
1. Is Darian Thompson as sure thing good player? He's a 3rd rounder. What's our success rate with those?
2. The idea that Collins is a great talent just held back by the guys around him is baseless. He can't cover. Safeties need to be able to. There's no John Lynch's in todays game.
To believe in Collins, but going back to his days at Alabama, he had trouble covering anybody.
I know he hates being called a "box safety", but I think that all he is. A great tackler and a good safety blitz guy.
Ross after drafting D. Thompson called him exactly that a "box safety", called D. Thompson a free safety and called M. Thompson a free range safety. He labeled Nat Behre a box safety too. So far out of Reese, McAdoo and Ross, the only safeties that I heard said they view as coverage safeties are the Thompson boys and Jackson.
I think we are moving closer to Collins being looked at WLB. I see think that M. Thompson pushes Spags to making that decision as well. The areas where Collins succeeded last season were covering TEs, blitzing and playing the run. That's a WLB.
Sounds like Giants might be moving to a three safety look at times
They invested a second and a fourth in Collins and a third in Thompson. That means three of the top eight draft picks went to the safety position in the last two years.
They also have three sixth rounders in M Thompson, Taylor and BJ; and a fifth rounder in Behre. That means something like 7 of the last 28 picks have gone to the safety position.
I know some on BBI claim Reese ignores the safety position but that is patently false. He may not hit on all his picks but he most certainly has not ignored the position--quite the opposite.
They invested a second and a fourth in Collins and a third in Thompson. That means three of the top eight draft picks went to the safety position in the last two years.
They also have three sixth rounders in M Thompson, Taylor and BJ; and a fifth rounder in Behre. That means something like 7 of the last 28 picks have gone to the safety position.
I know some on BBI claim Reese ignores the safety position but that is patently false. He may not hit on all his picks but he most certainly has not ignored the position--quite the opposite.
Both M. Thompson and Cooper Taylor were drafted in the 5th round.
Collins is the first Giants rookie DB to start in all 16 games in my memory. Giants have been unlucky at keeping their DBs healthy for a very, very, very long time.
But he's going to have a lot more talent all around him on the D. Plus he's got another year under his belt. It's pretty rare that a rookie comes in and makes much of an impact. The defense was horrible last year, so they can only get better.
I agree. Some on this site are down on Collins but the guy was a rookie and led the team in tackles. What more do you need to know in order to say he has a prominent role on this team for the foreseeable future?
Imo, Collins wasn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be. They just look at the end result. As a rookie he was asked to do basically everything against some great players and he was always right there. Players always say how fast the game seems and it starts to slow down.
On the other hand, Flowers was worse than fans admit. Why?
Because the defense was legendarily putrid and the offense was not. It's a matter of perception and it's basically wrong. I'd judge their rookie years pretty even, some very good and very bad moments but both have plenty of physical ability.
Imo, Collins wasn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be. They just look at the end result. As a rookie he was asked to do basically everything against some great players and he was always right there. Players always say how fast the game seems and it starts to slow down.
On the other hand, Flowers was worse than fans admit. Why?
So Flowers wasn't asked to basically everything against some great players? He was playing LT as a rookie, with a bum ankle.
Best part is if you pulled the threads prior to the 2015 draft, Collins and OO were mentioned PLENTY around here. There were some that wanted Collins @ #9.
and excited for the things he brings to the table. People can repeat over and over and over again about his covering and claim he'll never get better, but I won't bother doing it. It isn't constructive criticism, its repeated chest pounding about a player's short comings so when they do make a bad play they can say I told you so.
I'll let the coaches coach and I have faith that our completely revamped defense will have a snowball effect at each position.
a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot
Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.
and he was asked to do a lot last year because the safety spot was a huge morass - put some team around him instead of leaving him on an island to make up for a lack of talent and he's going to be a real impact player
a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot
Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.
Is there any reason you repeat the same things over and over again? Do you think if you say them enough we will get rid of Collins and trade for Earl Thomas?
RE: the guy is a hard hitting thumper - he's a baller
and he was asked to do a lot last year because the safety spot was a huge morass - put some team around him instead of leaving him on an island to make up for a lack of talent and he's going to be a real impact player
Not good enough, he simply can't get better and when he makes a bad play I'm sure as hell going to let you know about it, because I am right and your are wrong.
Collins is better when he's playing closer to the LOS. We had him playing out of position on an absolutely pitiful defense that couldn't get to the QB and he still registered 100+ tackles as a rookie. He'll be much better year 2 with experience under his belt, better players around him and hopefully some better FS play. He had a lot on his shoulders last year and the learning process took time.
a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot
Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.
if we had another S to step up and we can move Collins into a LB/S hybrid role. That's where this player could shine.
Yup agreed. I think Bennet Jackson is the wildcard here. He was set to start before he got hurt last year, I think they still like him. His triangle numbers at he combine were stellar including a 6.75 3 cone. Decent size at 6' 200lbs. He's not a thumper but he has range and has good hands as a former wr.
I think the Giants view him as the defacto 3rd safety who can play with Thompson up top and allow Collins to seek and destroy down low.
RE: Myron guyton and greg Jackson started as rookies and flourished
Even Collins last year. Kenny Phillips was a key player as a rookie.
Greg Jackson started 1 game as a rookie - Guyton started the other 15 (alongside Terry Kinard). It wasn't until his sophomore season that Jackson flourished.
Because the defense was legendarily putrid and the offense was not. It's a matter of perception and it's basically wrong. I'd judge their rookie years pretty even, some very good and very bad moments but both have plenty of physical ability.
I'd argue the difference is even simpler than that...fans love that Flowers grinded through some injuries without missing much time. So they pass off some of his struggles as being due to the injuries (certainly a factor) and "pump him up" some due to the "toughness" he showed.
Collins wasn't good in coverage, but more often than not he was "right there", just unable to finish the play (e.g. NE game). If the experience of a season and a (hopefully) competent player next to him allows him to finish a couple of those plays, he'll be viewed a lot differently.
A competent pass rush also makes guys look a lot better in coverage. IIRC, the Giants allowed the opposing QBs to hold the ball ~3 seconds/play and it was likely even worse pre-JPP. Increased pressure = more sacks and more hurried (off-target) throws.
a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot
Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.
No they're not. Kam Chancellor isn't great in coverage, and he's one of the top safeties.
You don't want Collins matched up against WRs, but I think he can develop to adequately cover TEs/RBs. If he can do that and excel in run support, he'll be very valuable.
Coverage safeties just get more "love" because they make sexier plays (i.e. INTs), but don't confuse that with SSs being useless nowadays.
It's amazing he's not even 30 yet. Still can't believe how much injuries have killed this team.
Phillips also had a great front 4, a solid CB duo in Ross/Webster, and most importantly Pierce in front of him. Aside from DRC, the rest of the secondary last year was filled with crap as was the MLB. It makes a big difference when you have a "QB" like Pierce to help properly align everyone.
all 3 corners, then the hopefully improved rush helps the safeties by increasing the # of errant or miss guided passes, and around and around, it's a feedback loop.
-------------------
still leaning towards a true 5-0-6 however (with 3 DTs, including a nose) , or even a 4-0-7 for that matter, if you consider Collins and Taylor 'linebackers' then you could call that last one a 4-2-5, with three corners and two 'true safeties' two 'ss/lbs' , for those very long down / distances, conversely, maybe taylor turns into an enforcer very deep which might allow Darian T. to be in the middle deep in a more classic 3 safety thing, with Collins up.
All goes back to the draft,where a scout questioned his coverage ability by asking him if he could do it.Factor in a few rough games ,and this is what you get.
"He can't cover"
As for Darian Thompson,well,he should take a few of those can't cover comments away from Collins,that will help.
Collins is my Dark Horse Pro Bowler ...
Only if The FS Positioned is Solidified and to me
its one of the most Important Problems/Needs to Address with our Defense ...
I hoped for TJ Green but you can't
Ignore Thompsons production..
2. The idea that Collins is a great talent just held back by the guys around him is baseless. He can't cover. Safeties need to be able to. There's no John Lynch's in todays game.
2. The idea that Collins is a great talent just held back by the guys around him is baseless. He can't cover. Safeties need to be able to. There's no John Lynch's in todays game.
John Lynch couldn't cover???
To believe in Collins, but going back to his days at Alabama, he had trouble covering anybody.
I know he hates being called a "box safety", but I think that all he is. A great tackler and a good safety blitz guy.
To believe in Collins, but going back to his days at Alabama, he had trouble covering anybody.
I know he hates being called a "box safety", but I think that all he is. A great tackler and a good safety blitz guy.
Ross after drafting D. Thompson called him exactly that a "box safety", called D. Thompson a free safety and called M. Thompson a free range safety. He labeled Nat Behre a box safety too. So far out of Reese, McAdoo and Ross, the only safeties that I heard said they view as coverage safeties are the Thompson boys and Jackson.
I think we are moving closer to Collins being looked at WLB. I see think that M. Thompson pushes Spags to making that decision as well. The areas where Collins succeeded last season were covering TEs, blitzing and playing the run. That's a WLB.
They also have three sixth rounders in M Thompson, Taylor and BJ; and a fifth rounder in Behre. That means something like 7 of the last 28 picks have gone to the safety position.
I know some on BBI claim Reese ignores the safety position but that is patently false. He may not hit on all his picks but he most certainly has not ignored the position--quite the opposite.
But you can certainly de-prioritize a position.
They also have three sixth rounders in M Thompson, Taylor and BJ; and a fifth rounder in Behre. That means something like 7 of the last 28 picks have gone to the safety position.
I know some on BBI claim Reese ignores the safety position but that is patently false. He may not hit on all his picks but he most certainly has not ignored the position--quite the opposite.
Both M. Thompson and Cooper Taylor were drafted in the 5th round.
Collins is the first Giants rookie DB to start in all 16 games in my memory. Giants have been unlucky at keeping their DBs healthy for a very, very, very long time.
Last year due to injury the Giants were fielding Merriweather and Dahl at S. In reality you had 3 SS. There was no one no could run or defend the pass
Thompson is a true FS. Just having that, while increasing the overall speed at S will be huge
So will having a pass rush
I agree. Some on this site are down on Collins but the guy was a rookie and led the team in tackles. What more do you need to know in order to say he has a prominent role on this team for the foreseeable future?
& despite all that, he led the team in tackles & I never saw him quit.
If Thompson can be a credible starter @ FS, him & Collins should form a good duo in the secondary.
Imo, Collins wasn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be. They just look at the end result. As a rookie he was asked to do basically everything against some great players and he was always right there. Players always say how fast the game seems and it starts to slow down.
On the other hand, Flowers was worse than fans admit. Why?
Imo, Collins wasn't nearly as bad as people make him out to be. They just look at the end result. As a rookie he was asked to do basically everything against some great players and he was always right there. Players always say how fast the game seems and it starts to slow down.
On the other hand, Flowers was worse than fans admit. Why?
So Flowers wasn't asked to basically everything against some great players? He was playing LT as a rookie, with a bum ankle.
I expect a big year from him
if he was 100% healthy, yes, I would personally be concerned, just as I am about LC. imo
Still waiting on the word out of Balki's camp.
Best part is if you pulled the threads prior to the 2015 draft, Collins and OO were mentioned PLENTY around here. There were some that wanted Collins @ #9.
Now we are "worried"
I'll let the coaches coach and I have faith that our completely revamped defense will have a snowball effect at each position.
Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.
Quote:
a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot
Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.
Is there any reason you repeat the same things over and over again? Do you think if you say them enough we will get rid of Collins and trade for Earl Thomas?
Not good enough, he simply can't get better and when he makes a bad play I'm sure as hell going to let you know about it, because I am right and your are wrong.
Quote:
a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot
Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.
Did your mother ever have any kids that lived?
Yup agreed. I think Bennet Jackson is the wildcard here. He was set to start before he got hurt last year, I think they still like him. His triangle numbers at he combine were stellar including a 6.75 3 cone. Decent size at 6' 200lbs. He's not a thumper but he has range and has good hands as a former wr.
I think the Giants view him as the defacto 3rd safety who can play with Thompson up top and allow Collins to seek and destroy down low.
Greg Jackson started 1 game as a rookie - Guyton started the other 15 (alongside Terry Kinard). It wasn't until his sophomore season that Jackson flourished.
I'd argue the difference is even simpler than that...fans love that Flowers grinded through some injuries without missing much time. So they pass off some of his struggles as being due to the injuries (certainly a factor) and "pump him up" some due to the "toughness" he showed.
Collins wasn't good in coverage, but more often than not he was "right there", just unable to finish the play (e.g. NE game). If the experience of a season and a (hopefully) competent player next to him allows him to finish a couple of those plays, he'll be viewed a lot differently.
A competent pass rush also makes guys look a lot better in coverage. IIRC, the Giants allowed the opposing QBs to hold the ball ~3 seconds/play and it was likely even worse pre-JPP. Increased pressure = more sacks and more hurried (off-target) throws.
Quote:
a lot of BBiers did and still do like Collins -- a lot
Yeah, and the question is why? He wasn't a good coverage safety in college and did nothing in the pros to dispel that. A safety who can't cover is of limited value today.
No they're not. Kam Chancellor isn't great in coverage, and he's one of the top safeties.
You don't want Collins matched up against WRs, but I think he can develop to adequately cover TEs/RBs. If he can do that and excel in run support, he'll be very valuable.
Coverage safeties just get more "love" because they make sexier plays (i.e. INTs), but don't confuse that with SSs being useless nowadays.
Phillips also had a great front 4, a solid CB duo in Ross/Webster, and most importantly Pierce in front of him. Aside from DRC, the rest of the secondary last year was filled with crap as was the MLB. It makes a big difference when you have a "QB" like Pierce to help properly align everyone.
If he can get to 215 it would help him a bit but if they rely on him to cover TEs all the time, we're going to give up a lot of first downs.
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still leaning towards a true 5-0-6 however (with 3 DTs, including a nose) , or even a 4-0-7 for that matter, if you consider Collins and Taylor 'linebackers' then you could call that last one a 4-2-5, with three corners and two 'true safeties' two 'ss/lbs' , for those very long down / distances, conversely, maybe taylor turns into an enforcer very deep which might allow Darian T. to be in the middle deep in a more classic 3 safety thing, with Collins up.
"He can't cover"
As for Darian Thompson,well,he should take a few of those can't cover comments away from Collins,that will help.