but it's downright pathetic that after using three top 45 picks on the offensive line in the last four drafts that we couldnt find two solid starters elsewhere.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
but it's downright pathetic that after using three top 45 picks on the offensive line in the last four drafts that we couldnt find two solid starters elsewhere.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
Schwartz came across like an asshole and Beatty, it seemed they couldn't count on AND was considered soft.
However, it would have been nice to have a solid back up plan.
He's limited athletically and many teams are no longer married to keeping their best pass rushers on the QB's blindside. Rather they will seek out the best matchups for their players. Hart would likely struggle against that type of quick twitch off the edge.
We'll see how it plays out. I'm still hoping for a player acquisition that will provide an upgrade on the ROL.
but it's downright pathetic that after using three top 45 picks on the offensive line in the last four drafts that we couldnt find two solid starters elsewhere.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
Schwartz came across like an asshole and Beatty, it seemed they couldn't count on AND was considered soft.
However, it would have been nice to have a solid back up plan.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
He's limited athletically and many teams are no longer married to keeping their best pass rushers on the QB's blindside. Rather they will seek out the best matchups for their players. Hart would likely struggle against that type of quick twitch off the edge.
We'll see how it plays out. I'm still hoping for a player acquisition that will provide an upgrade on the ROL.
While you may ultimately be right about Hart, I think you've stereotyped him to quickly. His upside has always been that he's the youngest guy out there. The experience he gained playing last year combined with a full NFL off-season and he may be a pleasant surprise.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
It makes sense if the team was trying to get rid of what they thought was dead weight and an attitude problem - The Schwartz, Beatty, Prince cuttings/non-signings all had a common theme
If you keep Schwartz and Beatty who both have major health concerns, you eliminate other younger OL prospects.
It is much easier to find a vet who is cut, who knows what he is doing with limited reps than it is developing a younger OL.
If internally the staff thinks that both Beatty and Schwartz are major health questions and not long term solutions, it becomes pointless to keep them.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
It makes sense if the team was trying to get rid of what they thought was dead weight and an attitude problem - The Schwartz, Beatty, Prince cuttings/non-signings all had a common theme
I understand the logic but why not wait until you have replacements? They cut two players who are more talented than the players replacing them. Jerry and Newhouse are backups starting and the players behind them are nobodies.
for the long term as well as they just didn't contribute here at all. Why keep two worthless players when you can save cap money down the road. I would bet cutting them now and absorbing some pain will pay off in 2017. I have no problems with that. Giants will be in fine cap shape next year based on some of the cuts they made this spring.
for the long term as well as they just didn't contribute here at all. Why keep two worthless players when you can save cap money down the road. I would bet cutting them now and absorbing some pain will pay off in 2017. I have no problems with that. Giants will be in fine cap shape next year based on some of the cuts they made this spring.
With a 35 yr old QB that doesnt make sense IMO. I get cutting Beatty because there was no position for him to play but nobdoy has yet to tell me how it hurts this team having schwartz on the roster right now.
Does anybody think Jerry is better? Even if Scwhartz only played 10 games isnt it better to have him for 10 than zero?
can you claim that Beatty and Schwartz are more talented than the guys replacing them? Really? Beatty CAN'T play RT or won't play RT. We have our LT. AND...the guy can't stay on the field and no one else wants him at this time. Newhouse for all his warts is probably slightly below avg at RT--in other words he won't kill you there. BEatty can't even play let alone play a position no one wants him to play.
And Schwartz was a huge failure here. He couldn't play and when he did he wasn't even that good. Jerry is clearly better --for one thing, he actually plays every sunday.
Like I said, you likely aren't just saving money now with these cuts, you're saving money down the road. Bite the bullet now while the cap room is good. I like it. Why put off the inevitable and push the hit down the road? Get it over with.
I don't really think there's much of a debate with Schwartz/Jerry Â
I don't like Jerry much myself, but he's been on the field and hasn't been any worse than Schwartz, who had the downside of missing a bunch of time and was more expensive.
So if the question is are we better off with Beatty/Schwartz vs. nothing, I regretfully have to say that nothing is about on par with their contributions.
Will we go into the season with what we have, or will we pick someone up? Don't know - but with a new OL coach and scheme in town, it's possible that they're expecting more from some of the guys already on the roster.
that the Giants spent a shit load of money on some long term prime cuts of beef but will still have a lot of cap flexibility now and next year. They Giants are in great shape from an asset mgmt pov. These cuts can only help.
I have a hard time believing we will be sitting here regretting these cuts come November. If Giants are thin along the OL at that point so be it. They will survive these so called losses.
but it's downright pathetic that after using three top 45 picks on the offensive line in the last four drafts that we couldnt find two solid starters elsewhere.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
Schwartz came across like an asshole and Beatty, it seemed they couldn't count on AND was considered soft.
However, it would have been nice to have a solid back up plan.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
I would agree that cutting a guy without having a replacement is generally a bad idea, but Schwartz rarely saw the field as a Giant anyway (due to injury), so there is really nothing lost by cutting him. Whether he is on the team or not, Jerry is the defacto starter. Plus the team recoups the cap space that would otherwise be spent on a player in the training room on Sundays.
Is how some folks believe that there's a magic formula (or carved-in-stone timetable) for rebuilding an offensive line from scratch without factoring in the dynamics of the draft or the free agent market, and at the same time ignoring what other immediate priorities the team may have, not to mention looking at the cap and future re-signings going forward.
No one wanted to upgrade the right side of the O-Line more than I did, but I was forced to admit that the opportunities to do so in free agency were few and far between (and the few were somewhat cost-prohibitive). And obviously the Giants were much more concerned with upgrading an historically horrible defense.
In the draft, while I would have sold my soul for Jack Conklin, it just wasn't meant to be. I might have taken a flyer on a development OL prospect later on, but I really can't fault the Giants for passing on one in favor of the players they actually chose, on both sides of the ball.
I don't like hitching my RT wagon to Bobby Hart, but I'll give the Giants the benefit of the doubt because he's a very young kid who came from a very good program, and it looks like he's been putting in the time and effort to improve his game. There's nothing wrong with that.
There are still some "names" out there that I wouldn't mind the Giants bringing in, but it doesn't look like they're anxious to sign anyone on the wrong side of 30, or with any significant injury history...at least not on May 19. That could easily change if injuries crop up. We'll just have to wait and see.
RE: RE: Losing Schwartz and Beatty was an upgrade Â
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
Unless you think that Schwartz was going to play 16 games, your idea is completely irrelevant- you can only play with the guys who suit up. Schwartz can't be counted on to play, so he's gone- and what is behind him is not a relevant discussion.
for the long term as well as they just didn't contribute here at all. Why keep two worthless players when you can save cap money down the road. I would bet cutting them now and absorbing some pain will pay off in 2017. I have no problems with that. Giants will be in fine cap shape next year based on some of the cuts they made this spring.
People appear to be willfully overlooking the fact that Giants are going to have big time cap space next year. They still have big money now- but I suspect that they hold onto that until the end of the year, and then use it for extensions for ODB, Pugh and Hawkins.
Sign those 3 to extensions, have another solid draft, and cut a few more vets who are likely on the way down (looking at Cruz and DRC) will still give them some very good cap space next spring as well.
The Giants can't publicly admit it, but they are on a 2-3 year rebuild plan. This is year one- lots of needs apparently filled, but you play the games to find out what you need next spring- and be ultra aggressive in year 2 to allow your team to compete at a high level in years 2 and 3.
Eli likely has somewhere between 3-5 years as a QB capable of carry his team to a Super Bowl before the decline his brother experienced sets in (granted, Peyton's neck injury probably contributed heavily to his decline). The Giants are just gearing up to make sure that they will be able to ride Eli in 2017 and after as long as he holds up. I think the Giants are looking at competing in 2016 as a bonus- not a mandate.
RE: RE: RE: Losing Schwartz and Beatty was an upgrade Â
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
Unless you think that Schwartz was going to play 16 games, your idea is completely irrelevant- you can only play with the guys who suit up. Schwartz can't be counted on to play, so he's gone- and what is behind him is not a relevant discussion.
Is the team better with Schwartz and Jerry or just with Jerry?
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
Unless you think that Schwartz was going to play 16 games, your idea is completely irrelevant- you can only play with the guys who suit up. Schwartz can't be counted on to play, so he's gone- and what is behind him is not a relevant discussion.
Is the team better with Schwartz and Jerry or just with Jerry?
With a 6 mill salary, when a guy plays in half the games, you're essentially paying 12 mill per. Is Schwartz a top ten G/T? They would be paying like it...
But cutting Schwartz/Beatty sent a message of support to the guys that gut it out -- Flowers, Richburg, Pugh. If I'm one of these three guys playing through injuries I can't have been happy with the other two.
RE: Losing Schwartz and Beatty was an upgrade
Old Dirty Beckham : 10:07 am : link : reply
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
Uh, yes, because I can count on him staying out there...and Schwartz didn't play that well as a Giant, either....so to say he is better than Jerry, is debateable....
We originally paid him 16M...4M average....we cut his ass and are eating, 2M of it, and are better for it.....Detroit got him for 840K...but if he doesn't make the team, only gets 200K of it....
Anyone who thinks he's better than Schwartz hasn't watched Jerry standing around as the plays are unfolding around him. His body is in better shape than Schwartz because he hardly stresses it during the games.
With all the cap room they had this year it would have been wiser to keep Schwartz until they had someone better but I've given up on expecting wisdom behind all of JRs moves.
On the bright side, with the defensive upgrades we made this year we should win at least 8 or 9 games if Eli can survive another season with holes in the o-line.
is people just ignoring others questions, comments.
Somebody answer this. Is the team better having both Jerry and Schwartz or just Jerry?
I'm not sure how one could conclude they're better just having Jerry. Even if you want to say Jerry is the defacto starter who is his backup? Who is Newhouse backup? Schwartz can play both position.
We didnt need to cut Schwartz to save anything significant short or long term. The Giants have two below average starters on their right side and no depth behind them yet somehow they're better off losing players at the position for unnecessary cap savings?
Is how some folks believe that there's a magic formula (or carved-in-stone timetable) for rebuilding an offensive line from scratch without factoring in the dynamics of the draft or the free agent market, and at the same time ignoring what other immediate priorities the team may have, not to mention looking at the cap and future re-signings going forward.
No one wanted to upgrade the right side of the O-Line more than I did, but I was forced to admit that the opportunities to do so in free agency were few and far between (and the few were somewhat cost-prohibitive). And obviously the Giants were much more concerned with upgrading an historically horrible defense.
In the draft, while I would have sold my soul for Jack Conklin, it just wasn't meant to be. I might have taken a flyer on a development OL prospect later on, but I really can't fault the Giants for passing on one in favor of the players they actually chose, on both sides of the ball.
I don't like hitching my RT wagon to Bobby Hart, but I'll give the Giants the benefit of the doubt because he's a very young kid who came from a very good program, and it looks like he's been putting in the time and effort to improve his game. There's nothing wrong with that.
There are still some "names" out there that I wouldn't mind the Giants bringing in, but it doesn't look like they're anxious to sign anyone on the wrong side of 30, or with any significant injury history...at least not on May 19. That could easily change if injuries crop up. We'll just have to wait and see.
No magic formula klaatu but I think it would be reasonable to expect that they could fix all the week spots within a 4 year period or sooner.
JR has a nasty habit of letting good players go when they start asking for more money and so every year we have to use top draft picks to replace those players and that puts us in a bad position trying to upgrade the weaker positions on the team.
The only thing Geoff Schwartz demonstrated in his brief time here Â
is that he couldn't be relied on to give you snaps. We never got to know how good he was or what he could do well, so I'm not sure why anyone would have a comfort level with him as a projected starter or a backup.
RE: The only thing Geoff Schwartz demonstrated in his brief time here Â
is that he couldn't be relied on to give you snaps. We never got to know how good he was or what he could do well, so I'm not sure why anyone would have a comfort level with him as a projected starter or a backup.
If the Giants kept Schwartz and he tore his acl in camp they'd be in the exact position they're in now. It made no sense not to hope to get something out of him. Now they dont have him and they have nothing behind John Jerry. I just dont get how cutting him helped anything but the mara's wallet.
It doesn't help their wallet either, so that's not a motivation Â
Maybe, just maybe, they got rid of him because they didn't think he could be any good anymore. A 340 pound offensive linemen with a bad leg? Sounds reliable.
but it's downright pathetic that after using three top 45 picks on the offensive line in the last four drafts that we couldnt find two solid starters elsewhere.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
Schwartz came across like an asshole and Beatty, it seemed they couldn't count on AND was considered soft.
However, it would have been nice to have a solid back up plan.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
Beatty played RT for the Giants before he played LT. He was very good. Not suggesting anything about keeping anyone only correcting your Beatty RT comment
RE: It doesn't help their wallet either, so that's not a motivation Â
Maybe, just maybe, they got rid of him because they didn't think he could be any good anymore. A 340 pound offensive linemen with a bad leg? Sounds reliable.
Maybe, but how could they possibly think the guys behind Jerry are better than him? He could have backed up both Jerry and Newhouse.
is people just ignoring others questions, comments.
Somebody answer this. Is the team better having both Jerry and Schwartz or just Jerry?
I'm not sure how one could conclude they're better just having Jerry. Even if you want to say Jerry is the defacto starter who is his backup? Who is Newhouse backup? Schwartz can play both position.
We didnt need to cut Schwartz to save anything significant short or long term. The Giants have two below average starters on their right side and no depth behind them yet somehow they're better off losing players at the position for unnecessary cap savings?
and this thread was just dominated by odb. This post wins the thread. Discussion over.
think Hart is a year away from starting at RT. I just find it hard to believe that a second year seventh round draft pick who hardly played as a rookie and is twenty-one is ready to start at RT. I hope I’m wrong obviously, but it would surprise me. He’s worked hard, but 2017 seems more likely for him. Despite all the groans and complaining, Jerry and Newhouse are likely to start at RG and RT. I don’t think a veteran FA after final cuts will be ready. Maybe Hart is ready by the mid season. But the same right side in 2015 will likely be what we see when the season opens.
The Giant offensive line ranked 5th best in the NFL Â
watching him in practice? TC said last year Hart graded out in practice +/- on same level as Newhouse and Jerry. If that's what he accomplished as a soft bodied, overweight 21 year old rookie, who supposedly got better year by year at Fla St and got some mention as an honorable mention and finally 3rd team all ACC player.
IE, Hart got by and even improved his game largely on natural ability, natural size, and practice and game reps. Unlike Flowers, he clearly was not a weight room fanatic.
This summer we hear he has finally taken the bull by the horns and committed to make himself into an NFL player. To make his body fit the mold.
If that's on top of what looks like enough natural ability to make him the equal of Newhouse last year at 21 years old...
I don't see why it's so hard to believe he won't be starting week 1 of the 2016 season. Being better than Newhouse isn't setting the bar all that high.
Scouting report linked; interesting what it says about his improvement as a run blocker his SR year.
Strengths
Bubble butt with power in his lower half. Improved from being a neutralizer to run-block winner in 2014. Can reestablish line of scrimmage when asked to maul. Wins in short yardage and near goal line. Gets hand on defender first and can latch on in pass protection. Turned 20 years old in August and body is still developing. Bobby Hart OL - ( New Window )
Is how some folks believe that there's a magic formula (or carved-in-stone timetable) for rebuilding an offensive line from scratch without factoring in the dynamics of the draft or the free agent market, and at the same time ignoring what other immediate priorities the team may have, not to mention looking at the cap and future re-signings going forward.
No one wanted to upgrade the right side of the O-Line more than I did, but I was forced to admit that the opportunities to do so in free agency were few and far between (and the few were somewhat cost-prohibitive). And obviously the Giants were much more concerned with upgrading an historically horrible defense.
In the draft, while I would have sold my soul for Jack Conklin, it just wasn't meant to be. I might have taken a flyer on a development OL prospect later on, but I really can't fault the Giants for passing on one in favor of the players they actually chose, on both sides of the ball.
I don't like hitching my RT wagon to Bobby Hart, but I'll give the Giants the benefit of the doubt because he's a very young kid who came from a very good program, and it looks like he's been putting in the time and effort to improve his game. There's nothing wrong with that.
There are still some "names" out there that I wouldn't mind the Giants bringing in, but it doesn't look like they're anxious to sign anyone on the wrong side of 30, or with any significant injury history...at least not on May 19. That could easily change if injuries crop up. We'll just have to wait and see.
No magic formula klaatu but I think it would be reasonable to expect that they could fix all the week spots within a 4 year period or sooner.
Well, unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. Sometimes you get lucky in free agency - O'Hara, McKenzie - and sometimes you don't - Baas, Schwartz. Sometimes you get a hit with a mid-to-late round draft pick or UDFA - Diehl, Seubert - and sometimes you don't - Brewer, Mosley, Cordle. It's a crap shoot. Just look at the number of "can't miss" OL prospects who get drafted in the first round and don't pan out.
Quote:
JR has a nasty habit of letting good players go when they start asking for more money and so every year we have to use top draft picks to replace those players and that puts us in a bad position trying to upgrade the weaker positions on the team.
You can make a case that not re-signing Linval Joseph was a mistake. I'd even go so far as saying that not re-signing Kawika Mitchell was a mistake. But a "nasty habit?" I don't think so. Up against the cap, with finite resources and a ton invested in a franchise QB, combined with a ridiculously high rate of attrition due to injuries, any GM is going to have to make tough choices. Even the best whiff on occasion.
Who are all the players Reese let walk away for money reasons? Â
Joseph has done well for the Vikings. Cofield started for the Bloodthirsty Savages for three years, but never put up the numbers he did with the Giants. Manningham and Boss did next to nothing after they left New York. This is a non-issue.
that is never understood with some people. Schwartz and Beatty were cut for a very specific reasons between, health, attitude, desire, etc. Yeah maybe when fully healthy they would be a better option but that ship has sailed. Just because we have money doesn't mean we should be spending it either.
that is never understood with some people. Schwartz and Beatty were cut for a very specific reasons between, health, attitude, desire, etc.
ODB, read this ^ 3 or 4 times because that is the part you can't seem to grasp.
Beatty and Schwartz were culture cuts. They cashed their paychecks but showed little willingness to play through injury, and little urgency in their efforts to return from injury. These aren't the kind of guys you want.
If an opportunity presents itself the Giants will likely upgrade the OL, but they appear to be more comfortable with the current roster than many posters here.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
However, it would have been nice to have a solid back up plan.
We'll see how it plays out. I'm still hoping for a player acquisition that will provide an upgrade on the ROL.
Quote:
but it's downright pathetic that after using three top 45 picks on the offensive line in the last four drafts that we couldnt find two solid starters elsewhere.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
Schwartz came across like an asshole and Beatty, it seemed they couldn't count on AND was considered soft.
However, it would have been nice to have a solid back up plan.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
Detroit.
We'll see how it plays out. I'm still hoping for a player acquisition that will provide an upgrade on the ROL.
While you may ultimately be right about Hart, I think you've stereotyped him to quickly. His upside has always been that he's the youngest guy out there. The experience he gained playing last year combined with a full NFL off-season and he may be a pleasant surprise.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
It makes sense if the team was trying to get rid of what they thought was dead weight and an attitude problem - The Schwartz, Beatty, Prince cuttings/non-signings all had a common theme
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
If you keep Schwartz and Beatty who both have major health concerns, you eliminate other younger OL prospects.
It is much easier to find a vet who is cut, who knows what he is doing with limited reps than it is developing a younger OL.
If internally the staff thinks that both Beatty and Schwartz are major health questions and not long term solutions, it becomes pointless to keep them.
Quote:
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
It makes sense if the team was trying to get rid of what they thought was dead weight and an attitude problem - The Schwartz, Beatty, Prince cuttings/non-signings all had a common theme
I understand the logic but why not wait until you have replacements? They cut two players who are more talented than the players replacing them. Jerry and Newhouse are backups starting and the players behind them are nobodies.
With a 35 yr old QB that doesnt make sense IMO. I get cutting Beatty because there was no position for him to play but nobdoy has yet to tell me how it hurts this team having schwartz on the roster right now.
Does anybody think Jerry is better? Even if Scwhartz only played 10 games isnt it better to have him for 10 than zero?
And Schwartz was a huge failure here. He couldn't play and when he did he wasn't even that good. Jerry is clearly better --for one thing, he actually plays every sunday.
Like I said, you likely aren't just saving money now with these cuts, you're saving money down the road. Bite the bullet now while the cap room is good. I like it. Why put off the inevitable and push the hit down the road? Get it over with.
So if the question is are we better off with Beatty/Schwartz vs. nothing, I regretfully have to say that nothing is about on par with their contributions.
Will we go into the season with what we have, or will we pick someone up? Don't know - but with a new OL coach and scheme in town, it's possible that they're expecting more from some of the guys already on the roster.
I have a hard time believing we will be sitting here regretting these cuts come November. If Giants are thin along the OL at that point so be it. They will survive these so called losses.
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In comment 12963285 Old Dirty Beckham said:
Quote:
but it's downright pathetic that after using three top 45 picks on the offensive line in the last four drafts that we couldnt find two solid starters elsewhere.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
Schwartz came across like an asshole and Beatty, it seemed they couldn't count on AND was considered soft.
However, it would have been nice to have a solid back up plan.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
No one wanted to upgrade the right side of the O-Line more than I did, but I was forced to admit that the opportunities to do so in free agency were few and far between (and the few were somewhat cost-prohibitive). And obviously the Giants were much more concerned with upgrading an historically horrible defense.
In the draft, while I would have sold my soul for Jack Conklin, it just wasn't meant to be. I might have taken a flyer on a development OL prospect later on, but I really can't fault the Giants for passing on one in favor of the players they actually chose, on both sides of the ball.
I don't like hitching my RT wagon to Bobby Hart, but I'll give the Giants the benefit of the doubt because he's a very young kid who came from a very good program, and it looks like he's been putting in the time and effort to improve his game. There's nothing wrong with that.
There are still some "names" out there that I wouldn't mind the Giants bringing in, but it doesn't look like they're anxious to sign anyone on the wrong side of 30, or with any significant injury history...at least not on May 19. That could easily change if injuries crop up. We'll just have to wait and see.
Quote:
Move on it's over.
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
Unless you think that Schwartz was going to play 16 games, your idea is completely irrelevant- you can only play with the guys who suit up. Schwartz can't be counted on to play, so he's gone- and what is behind him is not a relevant discussion.
People appear to be willfully overlooking the fact that Giants are going to have big time cap space next year. They still have big money now- but I suspect that they hold onto that until the end of the year, and then use it for extensions for ODB, Pugh and Hawkins.
Sign those 3 to extensions, have another solid draft, and cut a few more vets who are likely on the way down (looking at Cruz and DRC) will still give them some very good cap space next spring as well.
The Giants can't publicly admit it, but they are on a 2-3 year rebuild plan. This is year one- lots of needs apparently filled, but you play the games to find out what you need next spring- and be ultra aggressive in year 2 to allow your team to compete at a high level in years 2 and 3.
Eli likely has somewhere between 3-5 years as a QB capable of carry his team to a Super Bowl before the decline his brother experienced sets in (granted, Peyton's neck injury probably contributed heavily to his decline). The Giants are just gearing up to make sure that they will be able to ride Eli in 2017 and after as long as he holds up. I think the Giants are looking at competing in 2016 as a bonus- not a mandate.
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In comment 12963318 Torrag said:
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Move on it's over.
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
Unless you think that Schwartz was going to play 16 games, your idea is completely irrelevant- you can only play with the guys who suit up. Schwartz can't be counted on to play, so he's gone- and what is behind him is not a relevant discussion.
Is the team better with Schwartz and Jerry or just with Jerry?
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In comment 12963333 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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In comment 12963318 Torrag said:
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Move on it's over.
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
Unless you think that Schwartz was going to play 16 games, your idea is completely irrelevant- you can only play with the guys who suit up. Schwartz can't be counted on to play, so he's gone- and what is behind him is not a relevant discussion.
Is the team better with Schwartz and Jerry or just with Jerry?
With a 6 mill salary, when a guy plays in half the games, you're essentially paying 12 mill per. Is Schwartz a top ten G/T? They would be paying like it...
Old Dirty Beckham : 10:07 am : link : reply
Unless you think Jerry is better than Schwartz you cant make this claim.
Uh, yes, because I can count on him staying out there...and Schwartz didn't play that well as a Giant, either....so to say he is better than Jerry, is debateable....
We originally paid him 16M...4M average....we cut his ass and are eating, 2M of it, and are better for it.....Detroit got him for 840K...but if he doesn't make the team, only gets 200K of it....
Please teach John Jerry how to run-block.
With all the cap room they had this year it would have been wiser to keep Schwartz until they had someone better but I've given up on expecting wisdom behind all of JRs moves.
On the bright side, with the defensive upgrades we made this year we should win at least 8 or 9 games if Eli can survive another season with holes in the o-line.
Somebody answer this. Is the team better having both Jerry and Schwartz or just Jerry?
I'm not sure how one could conclude they're better just having Jerry. Even if you want to say Jerry is the defacto starter who is his backup? Who is Newhouse backup? Schwartz can play both position.
We didnt need to cut Schwartz to save anything significant short or long term. The Giants have two below average starters on their right side and no depth behind them yet somehow they're better off losing players at the position for unnecessary cap savings?
No one wanted to upgrade the right side of the O-Line more than I did, but I was forced to admit that the opportunities to do so in free agency were few and far between (and the few were somewhat cost-prohibitive). And obviously the Giants were much more concerned with upgrading an historically horrible defense.
In the draft, while I would have sold my soul for Jack Conklin, it just wasn't meant to be. I might have taken a flyer on a development OL prospect later on, but I really can't fault the Giants for passing on one in favor of the players they actually chose, on both sides of the ball.
I don't like hitching my RT wagon to Bobby Hart, but I'll give the Giants the benefit of the doubt because he's a very young kid who came from a very good program, and it looks like he's been putting in the time and effort to improve his game. There's nothing wrong with that.
There are still some "names" out there that I wouldn't mind the Giants bringing in, but it doesn't look like they're anxious to sign anyone on the wrong side of 30, or with any significant injury history...at least not on May 19. That could easily change if injuries crop up. We'll just have to wait and see.
No magic formula klaatu but I think it would be reasonable to expect that they could fix all the week spots within a 4 year period or sooner.
JR has a nasty habit of letting good players go when they start asking for more money and so every year we have to use top draft picks to replace those players and that puts us in a bad position trying to upgrade the weaker positions on the team.
If the Giants kept Schwartz and he tore his acl in camp they'd be in the exact position they're in now. It made no sense not to hope to get something out of him. Now they dont have him and they have nothing behind John Jerry. I just dont get how cutting him helped anything but the mara's wallet.
Broken ankle
Broken leg
Maybe, just maybe, they got rid of him because they didn't think he could be any good anymore. A 340 pound offensive linemen with a bad leg? Sounds reliable.
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In comment 12963285 Old Dirty Beckham said:
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but it's downright pathetic that after using three top 45 picks on the offensive line in the last four drafts that we couldnt find two solid starters elsewhere.
I still dont get why they cut BOTH schwartz and beatty. The cap space isnt being used. Schwartz, in particular made all the sense in the world to keep.
Every time I say it someone talks about his body being unreliable. I get it. But how would it HURT for Schwartz to be on the roster right now penciled in as the opening day RG?
Schwartz came across like an asshole and Beatty, it seemed they couldn't count on AND was considered soft.
However, it would have been nice to have a solid back up plan.
Beatty can't play RT and with Flowers entrenched their cutting him made a lot of sense. But Schwartz, for all his warts is a better player than Jerry. It just doesnt make sense to cut a guy without a replacement.
Beatty played RT for the Giants before he played LT. He was very good. Not suggesting anything about keeping anyone only correcting your Beatty RT comment
Broken ankle
Broken leg
Maybe, just maybe, they got rid of him because they didn't think he could be any good anymore. A 340 pound offensive linemen with a bad leg? Sounds reliable.
Maybe, but how could they possibly think the guys behind Jerry are better than him? He could have backed up both Jerry and Newhouse.
Somebody answer this. Is the team better having both Jerry and Schwartz or just Jerry?
I'm not sure how one could conclude they're better just having Jerry. Even if you want to say Jerry is the defacto starter who is his backup? Who is Newhouse backup? Schwartz can play both position.
We didnt need to cut Schwartz to save anything significant short or long term. The Giants have two below average starters on their right side and no depth behind them yet somehow they're better off losing players at the position for unnecessary cap savings?
Farrell is a backup guard, and Stingily is a backup OT. Both were brought in as backups with familiarity with Mike Solari's methods.
If something happened to Newhouse, today it would probably by Stingily, who's a 7 year veteran.
They Giants allowed 1.69 sacks per game last season.
I think the BAD opinion of JERRY is a mistake.
Farrell is a backup guard, and Stingily is a backup OT. Both were brought in as backups with familiarity with Mike Solari's methods.
If something happened to Newhouse, today it would probably by Stingily, who's a 7 year veteran.
Stingly has 9 career stars. Is he durable or does he not get hurt because he's too shitty to get in the game?
I'd rather have schwartz with Jerry as my backup should his body not hold up.
IE, Hart got by and even improved his game largely on natural ability, natural size, and practice and game reps. Unlike Flowers, he clearly was not a weight room fanatic.
This summer we hear he has finally taken the bull by the horns and committed to make himself into an NFL player. To make his body fit the mold.
If that's on top of what looks like enough natural ability to make him the equal of Newhouse last year at 21 years old...
I don't see why it's so hard to believe he won't be starting week 1 of the 2016 season. Being better than Newhouse isn't setting the bar all that high.
Scouting report linked; interesting what it says about his improvement as a run blocker his SR year.
Strengths
Bubble butt with power in his lower half. Improved from being a neutralizer to run-block winner in 2014. Can reestablish line of scrimmage when asked to maul. Wins in short yardage and near goal line. Gets hand on defender first and can latch on in pass protection. Turned 20 years old in August and body is still developing.
Bobby Hart OL - ( New Window )
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Is how some folks believe that there's a magic formula (or carved-in-stone timetable) for rebuilding an offensive line from scratch without factoring in the dynamics of the draft or the free agent market, and at the same time ignoring what other immediate priorities the team may have, not to mention looking at the cap and future re-signings going forward.
No one wanted to upgrade the right side of the O-Line more than I did, but I was forced to admit that the opportunities to do so in free agency were few and far between (and the few were somewhat cost-prohibitive). And obviously the Giants were much more concerned with upgrading an historically horrible defense.
In the draft, while I would have sold my soul for Jack Conklin, it just wasn't meant to be. I might have taken a flyer on a development OL prospect later on, but I really can't fault the Giants for passing on one in favor of the players they actually chose, on both sides of the ball.
I don't like hitching my RT wagon to Bobby Hart, but I'll give the Giants the benefit of the doubt because he's a very young kid who came from a very good program, and it looks like he's been putting in the time and effort to improve his game. There's nothing wrong with that.
There are still some "names" out there that I wouldn't mind the Giants bringing in, but it doesn't look like they're anxious to sign anyone on the wrong side of 30, or with any significant injury history...at least not on May 19. That could easily change if injuries crop up. We'll just have to wait and see.
No magic formula klaatu but I think it would be reasonable to expect that they could fix all the week spots within a 4 year period or sooner.
Well, unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. Sometimes you get lucky in free agency - O'Hara, McKenzie - and sometimes you don't - Baas, Schwartz. Sometimes you get a hit with a mid-to-late round draft pick or UDFA - Diehl, Seubert - and sometimes you don't - Brewer, Mosley, Cordle. It's a crap shoot. Just look at the number of "can't miss" OL prospects who get drafted in the first round and don't pan out.
You can make a case that not re-signing Linval Joseph was a mistake. I'd even go so far as saying that not re-signing Kawika Mitchell was a mistake. But a "nasty habit?" I don't think so. Up against the cap, with finite resources and a ton invested in a franchise QB, combined with a ridiculously high rate of attrition due to injuries, any GM is going to have to make tough choices. Even the best whiff on occasion.
That's not a habit.
And all were key SB winning contributors.
And all were key SB winning contributors.
Other than linval who has flourished elsewhere? Reese has done a great job of letting players go when they're done.
Socffield? He failed a physical. He didnt "let him go"
These O-line conversations ... ad nauseum.
And all were key SB winning contributors.
Joseph has done well for the Vikings. Cofield started for the Bloodthirsty Savages for three years, but never put up the numbers he did with the Giants. Manningham and Boss did next to nothing after they left New York. This is a non-issue.
ODB, read this ^ 3 or 4 times because that is the part you can't seem to grasp.
Beatty and Schwartz were culture cuts. They cashed their paychecks but showed little willingness to play through injury, and little urgency in their efforts to return from injury. These aren't the kind of guys you want.
If an opportunity presents itself the Giants will likely upgrade the OL, but they appear to be more comfortable with the current roster than many posters here.