Bill. Not even a contest. Football is a far more difficult sport to coach. Phil coached the best player of all time. Mike Brown got to the Finals with LeBron James. You could put me on the Warriors bench this year and they'd still be playing right now.
He has done great things without having the best players in the league (other than Brady). Phil Jackson worked his magic with some of the greatest players of their generation (Jordon, Shaq, Coby, etc...)
who has won all his championships with a top 10 all time player on his team is tough to judge. If Riley had Jordan in the 90's this wouldn't even be a discussion would it? If Belichick kept the Jets job he's probably just be a defensive coordinator somewhere today.
who has won all his championships with a top 10 all time player on his team is tough to judge. If Riley had Jordan in the 90's this wouldn't even be a discussion would it? If Belichick kept the Jets job he's probably just be a defensive coordinator somewhere today.
exactly, there are many great coaches who didn't succeed because of a number of factors.
who has won all his championships with a top 10 all time player on his team is tough to judge. If Riley had Jordan in the 90's this wouldn't even be a discussion would it? If Belichick kept the Jets job he's probably just be a defensive coordinator somewhere today.
How many NFL coaches would say the same if they had Brady?
Generational kind of coach. Every year he's competitive in a parity driven league. And when Brady went down he still went 11-5 with a guy who can't find a starting job now.
Shaq is better though in my opinion. It's easy to forget "Prime" Shaq since he had some clunky years at the end. But when he was young (during the LA Lakers run), he wasn't just huge, he was amazingly graceful. The most dominant player I've seen in any sport. He couldn't be stopped unless you basically cheated and fouled him every time he got the ball.
you know, people say anyone could have won with Shaq and Kobe
But Shaq had one title without Phil Jackson, and Kobe had none. Del Harris had Shaq and Kobe and couldn't get past the conference finals. Jax was a damned good coach, talent or not.
Brady threw for 145 yards in the Suoer Bowl. NE shut down the Rams offense and created tunnovers. That's why they won. It was all about the defense that year. Offense only averaged 20 points/game in playoffs.
Bill was the reason the Giants beat the Bills.
He won when Brady went down.
He has built a 15 year run in NE like the NFL has never seen.
Phil Jackson? Most overrated coach in the history of sports? Once the greats were finished he moved on. He did nothing to acquire the talent. He did nothing to bring in talent. World is full of coaches that could have done the same. How many could do what Belicheck has in the past 15 years?
by a mile for me. I've never seen a coach adapt so well each year like him. I think Pop fits that mold, but there's less turnover with a smaller roster in basketball and the same core piecefs.
You know who I think is an underrated all-time great coach?
Joe Gibbs. Three Super Bowls with three different starting quarterbacks and largely different rosters. That's pretty damned impressive, and it's rare in any sport. How many coaches or managers have won titles with almost entirely different teams? Very few. PJax in the NBA (separate franchises), LaRussa in MLB, Gibbs in the NFL, Scotty Bowman in the NHL. Anyone else?
RE: You know who I think is an underrated all-time great coach?
Joe Gibbs. Three Super Bowls with three different starting quarterbacks and largely different rosters. That's pretty damned impressive, and it's rare in any sport. How many coaches or managers have won titles with almost entirely different teams? Very few. PJax in the NBA (separate franchises), LaRussa in MLB, Gibbs in the NFL, Scotty Bowman in the NHL. Anyone else?
argue Parcells vs. Chuck Noll to me and said you can't give Parcells that much credit because he had LT.
LOL, Chuck Noll had I think 12 hall-of-famers from his Super Bowl wins. Parcells had two if you count Carson, but only LT I believe that was on both SB wins.
At least give me the Belichick argument (which is crap), but I found that ironic.
As for this question, I agree with a lot of what's been said, it's Belichick and it's not that close.
I might even argue Popovich as a better coach than Phil Jackson.
Basketball is way less complicated, way less players on the field, and raw talent in basketball almost always wins. How often does a less talented team that is better coached beat the more talented team in Basketball?
In football a talented team like say the Bengals can still be coached into being the Bungles.
as a program builder. Winning championships and turning dreadful situatiosn into contenders are separate skill sets. Parcells has shown excellence in both. The Patriots were a mess when he took over and he brought them to the Super Bowl. He took Dallas from QB chaos to the playoffs, and we obviously know what he did with us.
Pop is amazing, and probably the best basketball coach I've ever seen
One thing though - the same people who discount Jackson because of Shaq and Michael and Kobe sometimes seem to overlook that Pop has had the best power forward in basketball history his entire career.
Why are we selective with giving credit to coaches
Phil Jackson gets treated like a punchline whenever he does anything, Greg Poppovich is untouchable and gets a pass by the media for treating media members like idiots. They both coached multiple hall of famers, but the perception is that one is ahead of the other.
as a program builder. Winning championships and turning dreadful situatiosn into contenders are separate skill sets. Parcells has shown excellence in both. The Patriots were a mess when he took over and he brought them to the Super Bowl. He took Dallas from QB chaos to the playoffs, and we obviously know what he did with us.
Agree, plus he took the Jets from 1 - 15 to 9 - 7 in one year and to 12 - 4 in two seasons.
RE: Why are we selective with giving credit to coaches
Phil Jackson gets treated like a punchline whenever he does anything, Greg Poppovich is untouchable and gets a pass by the media for treating media members like idiots. They both coached multiple hall of famers, but the perception is that one is ahead of the other.
It's an interesting behavior study.
I don't make Phil a punchline, he's probably right behind Popp for me, he's a hall of fame coach, probably ahead of Riley and Auerbach (maybe).
The Patriots were 1-15, 6-10, 2-14 in the 3 years prior to Parcells
In his second year, they were 10-6 and in playoffs. That was when there was only Plan B free agency, too.
Jets were 6-10, 3-13, 1-15 in the three years before him. Cowboys were 6-10 three straight years. Whatever personal foibles drove him to move on quickly at every post-Giants job, the man was a great coach.
The reason they didn't have the ball is the Bills couldn't get a first down. Check that 3rd down conversion % for the Bills. The Guants defense shut them down.
The reason they didn't have the ball is the Bills couldn't get a first down. Check that 3rd down conversion % for the Bills. The Guants defense shut them down.
(sorry for not reading the whole thread, if this has been discussed, please ignore) while this is true, it's not the whole story. The Giants offense gets little credit for that game, but they held the ball for over 40 minutes out of 60.
the Giants rushed 39 times.
the defensive strategy was ingenious, but the ball control offense is often overlooked or underappreciated in context of that game. the defense was on the field for 56 snaps.
the offense 73. That obviously helps the defense - especially against an offense like the K-Gun.
Phil won many titles with 2 teams, but he had the benefit of 4 of the 25 or so best players ever, 3 of them top 10. While BB has had one of the all-time great QB's, he's won titles with less of a supporting cast in many cases.
Jackson is a master of the mind, getting in people's heads and manipulating the competition. Belichek is a general who can adapt on the fly. He can come out one week doing one thing and follow up the next with a totally different. Jax is a motivator and Bill is a strategist
Even taking that into account, I'd go Belichick.
I'd personally put Popovich over Jackson. And IMO, Pop vs. Bill is tougher to choose. Brady's helped Bill more than Duncan's helped Pop.
Brady but nature of the sport Shaq can have more of an impact.
exactly, there are many great coaches who didn't succeed because of a number of factors.
How many NFL coaches would say the same if they had Brady?
Shaq is better though in my opinion. It's easy to forget "Prime" Shaq since he had some clunky years at the end. But when he was young (during the LA Lakers run), he wasn't just huge, he was amazingly graceful. The most dominant player I've seen in any sport. He couldn't be stopped unless you basically cheated and fouled him every time he got the ball.
Bill was the reason the Giants beat the Bills.
He won when Brady went down.
He has built a 15 year run in NE like the NFL has never seen.
Phil Jackson? Most overrated coach in the history of sports? Once the greats were finished he moved on. He did nothing to acquire the talent. He did nothing to bring in talent. World is full of coaches that could have done the same. How many could do what Belicheck has in the past 15 years?
That's too simplistic. Much as people tout what the defense did, they still allowed 19 points in 19 minutes of possession.
The OL was the true MVP of XXV. Those long, grinding drives kept the ball out of Buffalo's hands just long enough to win.
It was a great defensive game plan, and they executed it well. It still wasn't the only, or even biggest, reason why the Giants won that game.
Tom Coughlin.
LOL, Chuck Noll had I think 12 hall-of-famers from his Super Bowl wins. Parcells had two if you count Carson, but only LT I believe that was on both SB wins.
At least give me the Belichick argument (which is crap), but I found that ironic.
As for this question, I agree with a lot of what's been said, it's Belichick and it's not that close.
I might even argue Popovich as a better coach than Phil Jackson.
In football a talented team like say the Bengals can still be coached into being the Bungles.
It's an interesting behavior study.
Agree, plus he took the Jets from 1 - 15 to 9 - 7 in one year and to 12 - 4 in two seasons.
It's an interesting behavior study.
I don't make Phil a punchline, he's probably right behind Popp for me, he's a hall of fame coach, probably ahead of Riley and Auerbach (maybe).
Jets were 6-10, 3-13, 1-15 in the three years before him. Cowboys were 6-10 three straight years. Whatever personal foibles drove him to move on quickly at every post-Giants job, the man was a great coach.
Scotty Bowman
(sorry for not reading the whole thread, if this has been discussed, please ignore) while this is true, it's not the whole story. The Giants offense gets little credit for that game, but they held the ball for over 40 minutes out of 60.
the Giants rushed 39 times.
the defensive strategy was ingenious, but the ball control offense is often overlooked or underappreciated in context of that game. the defense was on the field for 56 snaps.
the offense 73. That obviously helps the defense - especially against an offense like the K-Gun.
It was 5 years later when the Ravens made it to the Super Bowl.
What did Belichick do to help the 2000 Ravens make the Super Bowl when his final season coaching them was in 1995 as the Browns.
Almost no one was left from the Browns team, if anyone, on the 2000 Ravens unless that's a joke or I'm missing some connection.