The point of this thread is to have a place where we can speculate freely about Sunday night (and beyond) without worrying about whether our predictions are tainted by prior knowledge of the five novels or other material that Martin has blessed as canonical. You have insights from the books? Random Internet rumors based on interview slips or pictures of cast members on set? Post 'em here!
The only constraint, and it's more of a guideline, is not to post actual information from the episode. If some dumbass in the HBO International Subtitling Department leaks a script or video to Watchers on the Wall, just post a link and we can all decide for ourselves whether we want to see it.
I'll start with my top 10 semi-obvious predictions:
1. Bad night for the Tyrells;
2. Costly win for the Lannisters;
3. Tommen gets played by the Sparrow, but Margaery doesn't.
4. Uncle Benjen! Great to see you! Ummm... why so pale?
5 Bran harnesses enough of his powers to get back to the Tower of Joy, but not enough for a full Lyanna reveal;
6. Littlefinger double-crosses somebody;
7. Daenerys and Daario remain in walk-and-talk mode;
8. Tyrion tries to ride a new kind of dragon (Kinvara);
9. No f*cking clue what Arya will do at the theater, but her smile looks like she's pretty happy with her choice;
10. 10pm comes and goes, and Ramsay Bolton still isn't dead.
Death Pool Opening Odds:
Lady Crane 1-3
Bianca 1-2 (Arya has to kill somebody, right?)
Loras Tyrell 1-2
Olenna Tyrell 1-1 (biggest drop)
Mace Tyrell 1-1
Lyanna Stark* 3-2
Rickon Stark 2-1
Archmaester Pycelle 2-1
Margaery Tyrell 3-1
Kevan Lannister 3-1
Walder Frey 4-1
The Waif 4-1
Harald Karstark 5-1
Yohn Royce 5-1
Robin Arryn 6-1
Smalljon Umber 6-1
Petyr Baelish 7-1
Brienne of Tarth 8-1
Yara Greyjoy 10-1
Any Sand Snake 10-1
Ramsay Bolton 10-1
Benjen Stark 12-1
Theon Greyjoy 15-1
Brynden Tully 15-1
Jorah Mormont 15-1 (biggest improvement)
Tommen Baratheon 15-1
Frankenmountain 20-1
Meera Reed 20-1
Melisandre 20-1
Ashara Dayne* 20-1
Euron Greyjoy 25-1
Daario Naharis 25-1
Davos Seaworth 30-1
Varys 30-1
Grey Worm 40-1
Missandei 45-1
Cersei Lannister 50-1
Jaime Lannister 50-1
No Line: Daenerys Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister, Kinvara, Jon Snow, Arya Stark, Sansa Stark, Bran Stark, Tormund Giantsbane, Eddison Tollett, Gilly, Night's King, all members of House Tarly.
* - deceased
It looks like the end of the Tyrells to me.
to do what?
What is Littlefingers end game here? Does anyone even know?
It looks like the end of the Tyrells to me.
Well it's not secret Blackfish and Littlefinger have a "relationship", they were very close, but Blackfish is Sansa's uncle, no clue why he'd side with Littlefinger over her.
he has no relation to Jon Snow, but what is there to really "take down"? Jon Snow is right now nothing but potentially heir to Winterfell and that claim is specious by many.
More realistic would be Blackfish and Littlefinger in chaoots to take revenge on the Frey's and Boltons.
But you never know with Littlefinger.
Well, Littlefinger's longstanding connection with House Tully gives that idea some credibility. On the other hand, Baelish also murdered one of the Blackfish's nieces, and double-crossed his favorite niece's husband in a way that led not only to Ned's death, but ultimately Catelyn's too, plus the loss of Riverrun to the Freys. Littlefinger has a lot to answer for, assuming Brynden knows the half of it. I think the Blackfish would as soon slice Baelish in half as team up with him.
Maybe that makes sense in show universe, but I cannot see that behavior from book-universe Blackfish.
I don't think they'll do this on the TV show, but it's possible they do something similar. They've certainly set up Catelyn's disdain for Jon. So the Blackfish would have reason to distrust him.
I don't think they'll do this on the TV show, but it's possible they do something similar. They've certainly set up Catelyn's disdain for Jon. So the Blackfish would have reason to distrust him.
Sure blackfish could distrust or even simply resent Jon Snow, but why Sansa? And I believe it was the Tully's who banished Littlefinger from Riverrun
Right now Jon Snow is essentially nothing. He's not the Lord commander, he's not warden of the north, he's nothing.
It just doesn't make sense to me for Blackfish to antagonize the Starks especially with the Freys and Boltons on the other side when he himself barely escaped the Red Wedding (in the show) and doesn't attend the red wedding in the books, but barely escapes Riverrun after Jamie helps negotiate the riverrun surrender after the red wedding (in the book).
I don't see how even a master manipulator like Littlefinger can turn him to the side supporting the Boltons and Freys.
#silf
#silf
SHAME SHAME SHAME (rings bell)
I don't think so, but an interesting thing of note I saw pointed out this week is there's certainly a tremendous amount of parallels between Jon and Meera and the White Walkers. Their editing choices do make it seem like the Night's King is intentionally seeking Jon and Meera out. Both Jon/Meera had a direct one on one staredown with the Night's King, Night's King intentionally showed off his power to both both Jon/Meera, Jon/Meera killed a White Walker, Jon/Meera involved in the two biggest White Walker attacks in like 8000 years. Both Jon/Meera need "magical" beings to escape. Jon needed Wun Wun a giant at Hardhome, Meera needed Leaf a CotF in the cave.
The only real potential evidence for the twin theory in the books is they are the exact same age, and both Ned and Howland wound up with unexpected infants at the same time. Ned returned home with an infant boy. Howland returned home to supposedly find an infant girl. And we don't know who either one's mother is at the present moment.
I really don't think they're twins, but who knows anymore with this story. I thought a time paradox element was a crazy idea too.
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Meera is Jon Snows twin sister... Ned took one and the other dude took Meera. Meera is also a Targaryn. Also i think it will come out that Raegare gave that flower to Lyanna because a woods witch said their line would bring the prince that was promised.
I don't think so, but an interesting thing of note I saw pointed out this week is there's certainly a tremendous amount of parallels between Jon and Meera and the White Walkers. Their editing choices do make it seem like the Night's King is intentionally seeking Jon and Meera out. Both Jon/Meera had a direct one on one staredown with the Night's King, Night's King intentionally showed off his power to both both Jon/Meera, Jon/Meera killed a White Walker, Jon/Meera involved in the two biggest White Walker attacks in like 8000 years. Both Jon/Meera need "magical" beings to escape. Jon needed Wun Wun a giant at Hardhome, Meera needed Leaf a CotF in the cave.
The only real potential evidence for the twin theory in the books is they are the exact same age, and both Ned and Howland wound up with unexpected infants at the same time. Ned returned home with an infant boy. Howland returned home to supposedly find an infant girl. And we don't know who either one's mother is at the present moment.
I really don't think they're twins, but who knows anymore with this story. I thought a time paradox element was a crazy idea too.
Well we know who Jon's mother is. It is the worst kept secret ever. You know for a fact that honorable Ned would never do that. Plus then it makes Caitlyn Stark seem that much stupider!
I think one of the biggest tells is when Jon and Ned part. Ned said something like... when you are a man of the nights watch i will tell you all about you mother. He had this huge smile because he would get to tell him about his sister. As a man of the nights which he would no longer have to worry about him being a Targaryn.
It makes to much sense that Meera is his sister. The fact they both come home together with same age kids when they were together at the tower of Joy.
This will set the High Sparrow up to return his sights on Cersie. After she demands a trial by combat, he will name Tommen as the champion for the faith. If Tommen refuses there will be an all out run on the keep. If he accepts it will be his life vs Cersie's.
Or the Sparrow could name the Hound, who will turn out to still be alive. But I'm leaning on my first prediction - its the more interesting plotline.
Bran finishes the Tower of Joy Vision and NED Stark goes up the stairs to find Lynna who has just given birth to R+L=J. Or possible twins
Arya is on her way out of Bravos.
Soon, yes, but I think that might be the closing shot of Season 6.
This lends credence to Clegane Bowl IMO. In the books the Mountain is thought tomhavemdied by Oheryn's poisoned spear and zombie-Mountain is called Ser Robert Strong. For some reason I couldn't put my finger on they kept him as Clegane in the series. My guess is that the Hound, who is living a Hirt life of penitence as a gravedigger, hears the Gregor will serve as Cersei, and House Lannisters, champion, and he volunteers as the champion of themFaith Militant. Clegane Bowl is happening.
Arya kills the wrong person
Jon finds north remembers
BenJen reveal saves Bran and Merra
Kaleesi takes vengeance against the masters.
Brianne gets closer to Tormund.
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Blackfish shows up and he is in cahoots with Little Finger.
to do what?
What is Littlefingers end game here? Does anyone even know?
He told Varys long ago, as they stood before the throne, that it was his ambition. There is no ambiguity about that.
Sam has come a long way but there's a reason he snuck out in the middle of the night and stole his fathers/families sword (which I'm sure will have play a role against the Whote Walkers, as they bludgeon viewers over the rarit's of Valyrian steel at every opportunity): Sam's dad would kick his ass. This is the first we've seen of him but Randal Tarly is a respected, accomplished swordsman in the novels. A complete prick no doubt, but a badass nonetheless.
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In comment 12973922 Shadow said:
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Blackfish shows up and he is in cahoots with Little Finger.
to do what?
What is Littlefingers end game here? Does anyone even know?
He told Varys long ago, as they stood before the throne, that it was his ambition. There is no ambiguity about that.
There's zero chance th Blackfish is in league with Littlefinger or planning some underhanded coup. He's an honorable man and fiercely loyal to his family. Zero chance. Zero.
On plus is they backed off Ramsay for a week. I also liked that Arya is moving on - thought Jaqen H'gar's comment that she has "many gifts" was interesting. I hope we see those gifts expand.
Not sure how I feel about the Riverlands being brought back in so far out of sequence from the books. There must be something I am forgetting from the books that has to bring this in the show. I hope we're past the point of creating trivial conflicts just to keep main characters busy while others progress with their story.
Anyway, slow episode, but I was still thoroughly entertained by every second of it (maybe apart from Dany's speech).
Should be a great final 4 weeks.
By this point in the books, he's divested himself from Cersei and has moved toward regaining some honor. This show absolutely has wasted the importance of the journey with Brienne and the loss of the hand. Heck, do we really even know he's lost a hand in the show and the effect on his psyche? At this point he's moved to Riverrun but is more of a sober and statesman type. He's on his way toward a redemption that does not appear to be part of the show. Many of the events that occurred around him in the books occurred in the show (plus more in the show) but none of the impact on his persona. All those things pointed him in a direction, but in the show he's just a Lannister and that's all he will ever be.
Still, that is one character I feel they've done an injustice on the show.
Walder Frey, Edmure Tully and, of course, Benjen Stark all returned. Benjen confirmed as Coldhands must have appeased many fanboys as that was a popular theory. I totally missed most of Bran's "upload" visions. Pretty sure I saw the Mad King though?
Bran's "upload" vision was so quick, hard to make it out.
Pretty sure I saw the Mad King, Bran falling, babies, several images from Hardhomme (or a zombie invasion anyway), the Night's King, Ned getting his head lopped off and maybe even Rob Stark? Not sure about that last one. What else did I miss?
Link - ( New Window )
It was hardly a shit episode. You just don't appreciate the plot being pushed forward because apparently all you want to see are big battles and characters being killed off.
- Arya accepting that she's a Stark
- Return of Frey/Edmure appearance
- Return of Benjen
- Bran's visions
- Sam stealing Heartsbane
- High Sparrow/Faith Militant winning Tommen from his own family
I'd hardly call any of that filler.
She comes down from Yellow Mountain
On a dark, flat land she rides
On a pony she named Wildfire
With a whirlwind by her side
On a cold Nebraska night
I thought that was supposed to be snow on the Iron Throne. SNOW on the Iron Throne.
The book version of her visions came up in my head a week ago. Part of that vision said something along the lines of: Three fires you will light. 1 for life, 1 for death and 1 for love. Seems to me she's now lit 2 fires. Arguably 1 to bring her dragons to life and 1 to kill the khal's. I might be reading into too much - hard to say the show is following the books at this point.
They need more screen time for Tyrion and Varys FFS, 2 of the most intriguing characters on the show IMO.
Interestingly enough, it's been leaked that episode 9 is titled "Battle of the Bastards," which means we'll likely get that Jon Snow/Ramsey Bolton show down everyone has been clamoring for. Since we've seen enough HBO series over the years now (looking specifically at you the Wire and the Sopranos), we know the penultimate episodes is usually where shit hits the fan.
montanagiant : 5/26/2016 10:15 am : link : reply
In comment 12971985 Scyber said:
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In comment 12971974 ZGiants98 said:
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for next week and Im convinced of two things. One. That's Benjen on the horse and he's going to rescue Bran. Further I'm guessing with all the time missing he's going to know how to hunt and kill the walkers.
Two. The Terrell's army is going down. The sparrow will be unharmed. Watch the preview and the entire city is surrounding their puny little army. They will get bum rushed.
I agree with the Tyrells going down. I think the High Sparrow told Tommen about who kill Joffrey, and Tommen then told Cersei. The plan to get the HS is just a plot to get the Tyrells to commit their army and the Lannisters will double-cross the Tyrells. Of course I think this will backfire for the Lannisters. W/o the Tyrells backing them they don't have many allies left.
There will not even be a battle, the Sparrows will let her go claiming she repented and that she is now a fellow sparrow
Up in the Riverlands, the Blackfish gives Jaime his latest dressing-down, while the doomed Freys try to get some mileage out of poor, hapless Edmure. Bronn appears to have signed up for another tour of lucrative Lannister duty, though he doesn't look like his usual cheerful self.
All in all, not likely to be a thriller. We might get Arya vs. the Waif in the streets of Braavos, plus the final arrangements for CleganeBowl.
I'm curious to see how the show-runners handle the siege of Riverrun. Walder and Cersei both think it's a soft target, and it is... until the defenders open the sluices. Jaime seems to have a firmer grasp of what he's up against.
She'll kill the Waif and the MFG will be satisfied.
It would be a waste if she never completes her training though.
I hope not. I think they have gotten all the mileage they can from that subplot.
I think she kills the waif and then Jaqen gives her a new job - maybe someone she is more interested in killing.
He's undoubtedly still on the Quiet Isle. Ian McShane hasn't been on yet, so they still need those scenes.
Lady Crane to Arya: "Do you like to pretend?"
Lady Crane to Arya: "Do you like to pretend?"
I took that conversation to be metaphors. She likes to pretend to be other people (faceless man not acting).
The House of B&W wasn't amused when she freelanced on Meryn Trant. Is it possible that Arya was supposed to kill the Waif all along, as a final test to complete her training, and that Lady Crane was a decoy?
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She'll kill the Waif and the MFG will be satisfied.
The House of B&W wasn't amused when she freelanced on Meryn Trant. Is it possible that Arya was supposed to kill the Waif all along, as a final test to complete her training, and that Lady Crane was a decoy?
That makes more sense to me...
Why would it be a waste? For all we know she may be practically done with her training. The training (even if aborted) provides a way to explain her growth in fighting and other skills. If the expectation is that she will return to westeros and participate in future wars/battles, there had to be some way to explain her skills. Or should she have just returned completely unexplained a few year later and start kicking ass?
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it will be the biggest plot waste I've ever seen. They can't possibly do that, can they? I think its more likely she kills Waif and gets back in Hygar's good graces.
Why would it be a waste? For all we know she may be practically done with her training. The training (even if aborted) provides a way to explain her growth in fighting and other skills. If the expectation is that she will return to westeros and participate in future wars/battles, there had to be some way to explain her skills. Or should she have just returned completely unexplained a few year later and start kicking ass?
It would be a waste to have her join the theater troupe. Do we really need scenes of Richard E Grant yelling at her for improvising her lines?
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In comment 12977031 UConn4523 said:
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it will be the biggest plot waste I've ever seen. They can't possibly do that, can they? I think its more likely she kills Waif and gets back in Hygar's good graces.
Why would it be a waste? For all we know she may be practically done with her training. The training (even if aborted) provides a way to explain her growth in fighting and other skills. If the expectation is that she will return to westeros and participate in future wars/battles, there had to be some way to explain her skills. Or should she have just returned completely unexplained a few year later and start kicking ass?
It would be a waste to have her join the theater troupe. Do we really need scenes of Richard E Grant yelling at her for improvising her lines?
That casting decision alone makes it seem like that will be Arya's ticket back to king's landing or at least out of Braavos.
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In comment 12977039 Scyber said:
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In comment 12977031 UConn4523 said:
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it will be the biggest plot waste I've ever seen. They can't possibly do that, can they? I think its more likely she kills Waif and gets back in Hygar's good graces.
Why would it be a waste? For all we know she may be practically done with her training. The training (even if aborted) provides a way to explain her growth in fighting and other skills. If the expectation is that she will return to westeros and participate in future wars/battles, there had to be some way to explain her skills. Or should she have just returned completely unexplained a few year later and start kicking ass?
It would be a waste to have her join the theater troupe. Do we really need scenes of Richard E Grant yelling at her for improvising her lines?
That casting decision alone makes it seem like that will be Arya's ticket back to king's landing or at least out of Braavos.
That will be a drag...
My thoughts as well.
Not sure how she is supposed to get away from that.
Arya, IMO, leaves the many face gods and the faceless men assassin academy or whatever it is, and realizes she's a Stark, she kills the waif with needle and picks up her list of vengeance where she left off. She found herself.
I think she heads back to kings landing to kill Cercei.
I also think when fighting the waif she might harness some of her warg powers or somehow she connects back with Nymeria.
One small thing I wanted to note was the symmetry between Jaime's dismissal here and Barristan Selmy's several seasons ago, both being sent away furious after long careers in the Kingsguard.
Arya, IMO, leaves the many face gods and the faceless men assassin academy or whatever it is, and realizes she's a Stark, she kills the waif with needle and picks up her list of vengeance where she left off. She found herself.
I think she heads back to kings landing to kill Cercei.
I also think when fighting the waif she might harness some of her warg powers or somehow she connects back with Nymeria.
Getting back to the Riverlands too... Hoping we see a Nymeria appearance. What a handsome do...errr..direwolf,
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In comment 12977040 Chris in Philly said:
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In comment 12977039 Scyber said:
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In comment 12977031 UConn4523 said:
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it will be the biggest plot waste I've ever seen. They can't possibly do that, can they? I think its more likely she kills Waif and gets back in Hygar's good graces.
Why would it be a waste? For all we know she may be practically done with her training. The training (even if aborted) provides a way to explain her growth in fighting and other skills. If the expectation is that she will return to westeros and participate in future wars/battles, there had to be some way to explain her skills. Or should she have just returned completely unexplained a few year later and start kicking ass?
It would be a waste to have her join the theater troupe. Do we really need scenes of Richard E Grant yelling at her for improvising her lines?
That casting decision alone makes it seem like that will be Arya's ticket back to king's landing or at least out of Braavos.
That will be a drag...
You're probably not gonna hire that type of veteran actor otherwise. It was also basically stated that she was acting with the troupe in the released Arya chapter from WoW.
can you refresh my memory? what was it about?
Yeah - casting Grant sort of screams, "Keep an eye on the theater troupe." It looks as though they will be to Arya what the Ironborn are to Daenerys - on a much smaller scale, obviously.
Speaking of which, did Daario just estimate that Daenerys would need a thousand ships to transport her forces to Westeros. Funny coincidence, that.
These are the most lethal assassins in the realm. Literally impossible to identify. She's seen their inner workings. Wouldn't they hunt her down and kill her?
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In comment 12977031 UConn4523 said:
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it will be the biggest plot waste I've ever seen. They can't possibly do that, can they? I think its more likely she kills Waif and gets back in Hygar's good graces.
Why would it be a waste? For all we know she may be practically done with her training. The training (even if aborted) provides a way to explain her growth in fighting and other skills. If the expectation is that she will return to westeros and participate in future wars/battles, there had to be some way to explain her skills. Or should she have just returned completely unexplained a few year later and start kicking ass?
It would be a waste to have her join the theater troupe. Do we really need scenes of Richard E Grant yelling at her for improvising her lines?
Ahh..misread. Travelling with the troupe could provide 2 things though:
Additional learning about disguises. While she learned to change her appearance, she never learned how to put on someone else's face. The Acting troupe may provide help in "putting on someone else's face" without the FM magic (or whatever it is). Obviously not as good of a disguise, but it still could be a help.
Access. The theatre troupe could give her easy access to the castles of the Lords of Westeros that she wouldn't get on her own.
Separately - why are so many people convinced Sandor Clegane is alive? Arya abandoned him and his festering wounds, no? Or was that only in the books?
Speaking of which: Am I the only person who has read the books and gets confused by what he has seen v what he has read? e.g., "Oh, Coldhands wasn't even there when they battled the wights by the Giant Weir Tree in the show... I could swear he was there!" And Gendry and Edric get "merged" on the show, etc. I'm currently re-reading the books and am picking up a lot of things I missed first time through, but sometimes I jumble the show/books timeline.
"You know nothing, Don Draper."
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I forgot about the Mercy chapter from WoW. Man, they better wrap this storyline the fuck up with a quickness...
can you refresh my memory? what was it about?
Never mind, I found it on line.
Didn't realize it was a chapter from the unreleased book
For one thing it seems like there aren't really any or many trees on the iron islands.
Secondly how many trees do you think it takes to build one ship? The ones Stannis had in the battle of Blackwater looked like my guess at least 500 trees. maybe even 1000. This is not my area of expertise though, so say it's 500.
they'd need half a million trees.
And how long do you think it takes to build these boats?
Just seems like it would takes years to build them and they'd need to get trees from other places.
I believe at some point we will see Euron with 1,000 ships and I am cool with dragons flying around and Jon Snow coming back from the dead, but I have a hard time believing they'll be able to build that many ships by the time we see them, whenever that might be.
me too, but the numbers are astronomical (in my head at least)
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In comment 12977039 Scyber said:
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In comment 12977031 UConn4523 said:
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it will be the biggest plot waste I've ever seen. They can't possibly do that, can they? I think its more likely she kills Waif and gets back in Hygar's good graces.
Why would it be a waste? For all we know she may be practically done with her training. The training (even if aborted) provides a way to explain her growth in fighting and other skills. If the expectation is that she will return to westeros and participate in future wars/battles, there had to be some way to explain her skills. Or should she have just returned completely unexplained a few year later and start kicking ass?
It would be a waste to have her join the theater troupe. Do we really need scenes of Richard E Grant yelling at her for improvising her lines?
Ahh..misread. Travelling with the troupe could provide 2 things though:
Additional learning about disguises. While she learned to change her appearance, she never learned how to put on someone else's face. The Acting troupe may provide help in "putting on someone else's face" without the FM magic (or whatever it is). Obviously not as good of a disguise, but it still could be a help.
Access. The theatre troupe could give her easy access to the castles of the Lords of Westeros that she wouldn't get on her own.
This sounds perfect to me. Arya is not going to check off her list by riding in and challenging people to a duel. That's neither feasible nor consistent with all the faceless men training. She needs an entree so that she can get close to a target and [quietly] dispatch them.
IMO, she's pretty much Scaramouche.
While initially I thought against it the acting troupe does provide a lot of access and I can totally see Arya playing Joffrey or getting disguised like him to kill Cersei - though I think that was wild speculation.
I hope they just skip to her getting back then - I can't take too much more backstage drama...
Cmon, how cool would it be for Arya to kill Cersei while wearing a Joffrey mask. It's completely unlike GRRM to give the readers that much satisfaction though.
That doesn't seem like coincidental storytelling to me.
I don't know. Maybe this a spoiler for the books and GRRM has created the biggest red herring in the character of Jon Snow and everyone's grand visions of who and what Jon will become will never come to pass, and he's just not that important anymore. I'd be surprised, especially given his parentage being the central mystery of this story but I wouldn't put something like that past GRRM either. We'll see.
I don't know. Maybe this a spoiler for the books and GRRM has created the biggest red herring in the character of Jon Snow and everyone's grand visions of who and what Jon will become will never come to pass, and he's just not that important anymore. I'd be surprised, especially given his parentage being the central mystery of this story but I wouldn't put something like that past GRRM either. We'll see.
If R+L=J is true, he has the best claim to the throne. Given what this story universe has shown us, does he seem fit to be king in temperament or ability?
Hell, Tyrion is the only one that has shown he can be a ruler.
If R+L=J is true, he has the best claim to the throne. Given what this story universe has shown us, does he seem fit to be king in temperament or ability?
Hell, Tyrion is the only one that has shown he can be a ruler.
Its shocking how little of Jon and Tyrion have been featured this season. They are 2 of the top 5 billed actors and everything points to them being in it for the long haul. Harrington isn't a very good actor but Jon Snow the character needs to be in the show more, especially after coming back to life. Tyrion is arguably the best actor on the show and simply needs more lines, a ton more in fact.
I loved Randall Tarly's dinner scene with same. That's GoT at its best, just completely destroyed him similarly to how Tywin used to verbally undress people. I hope we get a few more scenes with him.
If R+L=J is true, he has the best claim to the throne. Given what this story universe has shown us, does he seem fit to be king in temperament or ability?
I petty much agree with this for the show. Especially now. I don't think I'd find it believable anymore if Jon Snow became King. Not after how they've written him since his return. They way they've written him I half expect him to cry in a dark corner sobbing "why me" when he finds out his parentage and potential claim on the throne. And dragon riding? Does this season 6 Jon Snow character look like he could bond with a dragon to the point where he could ride it? With maybe only 13 episodes to go after this season?
As Olenna said, Tywin understood the importance of working with people he despised. Randyll is just a bigoted bully, who has treated Sam even more shabbily than Tywin treated Tyrion - and with far less cause.
The show misses Charles Dance. James Faulkner's Randyll is a poor substitute.
He's also going to be uncomfortable trying to regain Winterfell because he's always been a peripheral member of the household as a bastard. See the awkward silence when Sansa tries and fails to reassure him of his identity as a Stark when she compares him to Ramsay.
I have a feeling once Jon learns he's a Stark we'll see him regain that earlier hard-won confidence as Lord Commander. I doubt it happens before the battle for Winterfell so his involvement there and throughout these sales pitches in the next episode and beyond are going to be interesting.
He'll shake it off for Bastard Bowl, and for the Wars to Come. It's not as though there are any dragons around for him to ride at the moment.
The narrative has missed Tywin as well. The old veterans of the show have slowly been picked off and the intervening generation between Tywin and Olenna's and Jon and Dany's, i.e. Cersei's lot, is utterly mediocre, especially in positions of power. There were, of course, structural problems that weren't going to go away, but the crumbling of the political order that Tywin tried to build and maintain (despite ruthlessly trying to increase his influence in it) after Robert's Rebellion has been hastened by the poor political judgment of people like Cersei (and Ned Stark for that matter).
This isn't to turn GoT into a fantasy world analogy for the fall of the ancient regime or whatever, but it still is a pretty sophisticated political (and sociological) story.
The narrative has missed Tywin as well. The old veterans of the show have slowly been picked off and the intervening generation between Tywin and Olenna's and Jon and Dany's, i.e. Cersei's lot, is utterly mediocre, especially in positions of power. There were, of course, structural problems that weren't going to go away, but the crumbling of the political order that Tywin tried to build and maintain (despite ruthlessly trying to increase his influence in it) after Robert's Rebellion has been hastened by the poor political judgment of people like Cersei (and Ned Stark for that matter).
This isn't to turn GoT into a fantasy world analogy for the fall of the ancient regime or whatever, but it still is a pretty sophisticated political (and sociological) story.
Ash, what poor judgment did Ned exhibit? (unless you mean early on like flashbacks to TOJ or before GOT (the book)).
He was unwilling to "play" the game? Who he trusted?
I am sure I'm missing something, but on the surface at least he was set up by Littlefinger (and the Lannisters).
There is no book. Its who has the power.
That's not a literature principle either, we live it every day IRL.
2 questions. 1. Have we seen the last of Mel? 2. Why the departure from the books after the Kingsmoot?
Honestly, just having Euron send Asha and/or Theon to Mereen made more sense. She fills the Victarian role. Having the ships stolen and then building a thousand more is a really funky plot angle. I'm hoping there's a reason they are forced to do it.
2 questions. 1. Have we seen the last of Mel? 2. Why the departure from the books after the Kingsmoot?
Honestly, just having Euron send Asha and/or Theon to Mereen made more sense. She fills the Victarian role. Having the ships stolen and then building a thousand more is a really funky plot angle. I'm hoping there's a reason they are forced to do it.
Who knows? Maybe they just kept Gemma Whelan around for some hot girl-girl action.
The show hasn't visited a functioning brothel in months, though Tyrion did bring in a few bedslaves to entertain the Masters.
And his whole, beloved family wound up corpses, hostages, and/or fugitives. Winterfell has changed hands twice and is now held by a psychotic bastard who brutalized Ned's daughter. Ice has been melted down and reforged as a pair of Lannister swords (though Oathkeeper is back in the service of the Starks). Honorable or not, if he had it to do over again, I think Ned would play his cards differently.
Let's face it we knew Ned for one book, but I don't think under the same circumstances he'd act any differently. Mainly because he should have been able to foresee this somewhat or at least had been wary.
Most people would have been wary of Littlefinger under the circumstances to begin with, Ned being played by him shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Least of all Ned.
Now that I understand what he meant I agree with Ash about Ned's poor judgment, but he was more cut out to be Warden of the North than anywhere close to the Iron Throne. And poor judgment is simply his assumption that others shared his same sense of honor, which is very naive.
Either way, I don't think he couldn't play the game, I just think he had no interest in doing so.
His mishandling of the Lannisters, however, was sheer bumbling. Ned had witnessed Tywin's machinations during and after Robert's Rebellion; he knew all about House Reyne; and he certainly didn't expect honorable conduct from the Kingslayer or his sister-lover.
The problem wasn't that Ned refused to play the Game. As Cersei noted, the problem was that he was playing it badly, and not recognizing the real stakes. You win or you die.
Littlefinger is the one who challenged brandon stark to duel for Catelyn's hand. brandon spared his life, but he was banished from riverrun.
So, sure no hard feelings?
Letting Littlefinger get so close is Ned being naive.
Littlefinger convinced Lysa to poison Jon Arryn (hand of the kind) knowing Ned was likely to be picked to succeed Jon.
Littlefinger then brought the incestuous claims to Ned about Joffrey (and the other Lannister kids) once Robert died - and he had a good idea how Joffrey would react - leaving Catelyn to him.
Ned had to be blind not to see this.
I assumed this is what Ash meant.
Littlefinger also then orchestrated Joffrey's death.
I don't know his end game with the bolton's, Sansa, or the eyrie or the Vale, but I do believe he will have a pivotal role in how this whole thing ends.
His central mistake was taking Littlefinger's information and deciding to act on it without a) incontrovertible proof (hard to say whether he'd be able to find any) and, more importantly b) force to back up his claims or to protect him against Lannister retaliation against him and his family in King's Landing.
Some signs suggest that Kings Landing could be in for a tough time (wildfyre in Bran's visions) and at some point the dead have to be dealt with. Perhaps Kings Landing is in for a disaster and Daenerys will head north to battle the undead with her dragons and meet her doom.
As for this season - if Cleganebowl is to happen we'd best see Sandor again very soon. Hopefully this week. While they avoided disaster last week, I can't shake the feeling the Tyrell's are headed for a very, very bad time in Kings Landing. Probably Tommen too but that's hardly a surprise since they've already told us his fate.
and my wild prediction that likely won't come true... we DON'T find out all the truth of what happened at the TOJ this year but we will see Arya use the pointy end of needle on Walder Frey.
Looks like I will have to eat every fuckin chicken in here.
Who is the HS other target? Oleanna?
It's already episode 7, where the F is Ian McShane? This is no way to treat Al Swearengen. Wu would be pissed.
I believe he makes an appearance Sunday night based on IMDB which would probably confirm the re-emergence of the Hound aka "the Broken Man".
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Synopsis The High Sparrow considers another target; Jaime confronts a hero; Arya makes a plan; memories are awakened in the North.
Who is the HS other target? Oleanna?
It's already episode 7, where the F is Ian McShane? This is no way to treat Al Swearengen. Wu would be pissed.
I believe he makes an appearance Sunday night based on IMDB which would probably confirm the re-emergence of the Hound aka "the Broken Man".
Other Target
Frankenmountain.
Cersei already indicated she'd name him as her champion in trial by combat, if the HS comes after him I guess it could remove that possibility.
but the guy doesn't talk so he can't denounce any gods or commit blasphemy, he doesn't appear to be gay, so they don't have that angle.
What would they charge him with?
though now that Margery is "converted" (which I think is a ruse) maybe you're right and she gave him some manufactured lies about the Mountain to get him out of the way and Cersei to have no champion or one not as formidable.
Cersei will stike the Tyrell's, Margery will strike back and fulfill Maggy's prophesy. Either way, shit will go down in Kings landing - likely in the final episode where Bastardbowl is set for #9.
Meaning a death sentence for Cersi. Until Baelish rides in with the Knights of the Vale for the save and the Iron Throne for himself. Along with What's left of the kingdom sans the North.
His arc continues to be the most mysterious to me. Such a wildcard.
bad timing for Cersei.
Frankenmountain.
Qyburn's reanimated killing machine seems like a long shot for conversion to the Faith of the Seven. Maybe Frankenhound?
I do believe though Baelish will have some influence in how it turns out - positive or negative, I have severe doubts it will be him sitting on the throne though.
The challenge would be making it believable that Tommen would agree to do it. Maybe if Margaery maneuvered him into it? The problem for her is that if things go awry and Tommen dies, she's no longer Queen.
Who is Tommen's heir at this point anyway? Is there another legitimate Baratheon left alive? If Renly had just stayed in bed with Loras, the crown might have fallen onto his pillow.
I do believe though Baelish will have some influence in how it turns out - positive or negative, I have severe doubts it will be him sitting on the throne though.
Technically Littlefinger is noble born. He is lord of House Baelish. They are minor nobles, but technically still Nobles. His grandfather was a Hedge Knight that was granted a minor lordship.
On TV, he's fully functional, with a teenager's enthusiasm (and lack of ejaculatory restraint). As of the end of Book 5, I don't think he was ready to consummate yet.
In any case, I think Margaery's imprisonment would have been problematic for any pregnancy.
a charm.
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was low-born, I find it almost as unlikely he winds up in the iron throne as Varys.
I do believe though Baelish will have some influence in how it turns out - positive or negative, I have severe doubts it will be him sitting on the throne though.
Technically Littlefinger is noble born. He is lord of House Baelish. They are minor nobles, but technically still Nobles. His grandfather was a Hedge Knight that was granted a minor lordship.
Technically maybe, but he is not considered high-born and it's partly why he's so underestimated. In either case, I think it would be a stretch to see him claim the iron throne with so many others with better claims, better armies and no real allies that have loyalty to him.
from a wiki of ice and fire:
I wonder if lady stonehart comes back and he falls in love with her corpse/undead body.
I agree, he's not going anywhere.
And good call on Dany's arc, and while he's not responsible for that story line, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he knows what really happened at the TOJ and uses that in some way when introduced into the Dany story line.
I just can't figure out whose scheming wins, Varys or Littlefinger. Or in a wild shock, they're in cahoots - which I doubt, but you never know.
I wonder if lady stonehart comes back and he falls in love with her corpse/undead body.
I meant future descendants.
I could possibly see it happening on the show. Though, what kind of evidence would he have to present to either Jon or Dany?
Not as far as I know, Jon Arryn and Lysa
I could possibly see it happening on the show. Though, what kind of evidence would he have to present to either Jon or Dany?
I agree Littlefinger was most likely not at the TOJ, but Littlefinger is about 5 years younger than Ned. So, unless Ned was 16 at the TOJ I don't think the gap is as wide as you think but that's irrelevant.
The point is Littlefinger is resourceful, and more likely than not, knows Jon Snow's true identity and his relation to Dany (as cousins if you subscribe to the R+L=J theory, and even the Meera twin theory).
I think Varys knows too.
That's what I meant and Littlefinger could absolutely use that information to motivate/influence actions.
They could invent a different timeline in the show. In fact, they already have by putting him at the Tourney. So anything is possible with the show. I was speaking more from a book standpoint, I don't see a possibility in the source material.
I think we know that is unlikely even if it is a closely guarded secret.
Littlefinger learned the Lannister kids were the product of incest, didn't he? He used that to start a war.
I believe he knows the events at the TOJ as well.
They were Royalty Of course there is a a Midwife. Chances are she came apon hard times and worked in Baelish Brothel and ended up telling him who Jon And company really are?
Lyanna was ripped apart only Targs dragons do that.
Its Why he said to Sansa. HALF-brother.
I don't believe Jon Snow knows that he and Sansa are very possibly first cousins, not half-brother and sister.
Don't know. But only two people in Westeros knew the Lannister children were the product of incest and he somehow found that out too.
Ned was going to tell Jon Snow who his mother was when he visited him at the wall, I believe Jon Arryn knew and therefore Lysa knew and that's likely how Littlefinger found out.
I mean he convinced her to poison Jon Arryn, it's not a stretch to think she'd tell him something like that even before she told Catelyn.
Like a father figure or not, I don't see why would Ned tell Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn was Robert's Hand. The whole reason Ned claimed Jon as his son was to protect him from Robert's wrath. I don't see anything gained by telling Robert's Hand. There's no reason to.
how did that get out? Robert didn't even know. Simply looking more like your mother is not proof of incest.
So just because Ned and Howland were the only two people to know about the birth of Lyanna's child/children does not necessarily mean it was kept before them.
Some people theorize that while in the jail cells at King's Landing when Ned asks Varys to send a letter for him he possibly writes to Jon Snow with this information or even Howland.
Once the spider learns about it, believing Littlefinger knows it too is not a stretch at all.
and that assumes the only two survivors of TOJ - period - were Ned and Howland which we do not know to be true.
I don't disagree that Littlefinger may know this on the show. They've set it up and it makes sense especially if they never cast a current Howland. I would be very surprised if he had any idea at all in the books. By GRRM's own admission, it's an entirely different character than how he's portrayed in the show.
If you read what Martin says is different between show and book Littlefinger it makes it more believable IMO. and I can't explain the chain of how he knows, but I just believe there's a good chance he knows.
He was such a good character he needed more screen time, after Ned's head was lopped off it was hard to remain subtle and get the screen time he deserves so I understand what they did with him.
Probably will lack the confidence until the battle of the bastards. That will be his rise to Lord of Winterfell imo, he will kick ass that day and win the other lords over.