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Optimistic outlook at the safety position:

BlueLou : 5/28/2016 5:26 am
Landon Collins comes on strong in all aspects year 2.

Nat Berhe and Darien Thompson both show, based on their extensive starting experience in college, that they are at least capable of being the 2nd starting S and playing a reasonable "center field, last line of defense" role. They are neck and neck to start the season... and the other one of them becomes the 3rd safety in nickle or dime packages.

Not even considering the slim chance that Cooper Taylor returns healthy and stays healthy for a full season, that still leaves late round picks Jackson and M. Thompson to fill roles as ST contributors or - based on their college experience - slot or nickel or backup CBs.

OK maybe the odds are slim to unfold this way and luck out on injuries for a change...

But I like the fact that 2 of the Giants' young candidates at safety have the experience and athleticism (based on combine or Pro day measurements) to play CB.
It's a wait and see proposition at safety this season  
Torrag : 5/28/2016 6:57 am : link
We need significant improvement from last season to reach acceptable performance levels nevermind excellence.

We'll know more as the offseason progresses but the litmus test is always when teams gameplan your weaknesses and you see how your players respond.

Until then I'll moderate my expectations.
that is a very optimistic outlook  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/28/2016 7:05 am : link
Cooper Taylor is pretty much done - Berhe hasn't been able to see the field during the regular season -- like ever. So far Bennet sits out 15 games for every game played. Mykele Thompson has yet to see the field for a regular game.

Darian Thompson may or may not be the goods -- but I'll give you 2 out of six using the Jordan Raanan formula of thirds.

Collins is a playa and so is Darian Thompson -
Until I see otherwise I don't think the rest of those guys is slated to be a complete season field hand combined.
The fact that Craig Dahl  
JPinstripes : 5/28/2016 7:10 am : link
is no longer the starter (or on the roster) at S is already a huge upgrade at the position from last year.
RE: that is a very optimistic outlook  
BlueLou : 5/28/2016 7:26 am : link
In comment 12974387 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Cooper Taylor is pretty much done - Berhe hasn't been able to see the field during the regular season -- like ever. So far Bennet sits out 15 games for every game played. Mykele Thompson has yet to see the field for a regular game.

Darian Thompson may or may not be the goods -- but I'll give you 2 out of six using the Jordan Raanan formula of thirds.

Collins is a playa and so is Darian Thompson -
Until I see otherwise I don't think the rest of those guys is slated to be a complete season field hand combined.


Frankly I don't get the negativity about Berhe based on his not playing last year. As a rookie he played in all 16 games, mostly various STs but he also saw snaps as a safety at the end of his rookie year. TC was very frustrated by Berhe's injury - which implied TC was expecting more than STs from Berhe his 2nd year, even with hot flash high pick Collins drafted.

I understand Joey's criticism of Berhe: too small, too slow... but the guy was a very good college player, a 4 year starter, injury free. And his short area quickness and jumping combine numbers were good for a safety, or at least adequate.

Plus he hits like a guy a lot bigger than he is, and for his height is well built.

I understand robbieballs optimism re Berhe more than others' negativity.
while I forgot that Berhe was able to play in year 1  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/28/2016 8:09 am : link
that group does not inspire confidence at this juncture Lou
RE: while I forgot that Berhe was able to play in year 1  
BlueLou : 5/28/2016 8:11 am : link
In comment 12974419 gidiefor said:
Quote:
that group does not inspire confidence at this juncture Lou


Who mentioned confidence?

I said optimism!😉
I would agree there is reason to be cautiously optimistic  
UberAlias : 5/28/2016 8:13 am : link
about the position. The only one I have little confidence is going to work out is Cooper Taylor. There has been too many chances for him. Collins will benefit from the likely move to SS and a year under his belt. The rest of them will make for some good competition. It is not like there have been no flashes with them.
RE: RE: while I forgot that Berhe was able to play in year 1  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/28/2016 8:19 am : link
In comment 12974423 BlueLou said:
Quote:

Who mentioned confidence?

I said optimism!😉


Semantic Optimism????

How does one have optimism without confidence?
I wonder if Bennett Jackson  
UberAlias : 5/28/2016 8:22 am : link
Might be considered at nickel.
Don't get the love for the athletically challenged Berhe  
Bob in Newburgh : 5/28/2016 9:09 am : link
Best case scenario if we are to be a decent team is that he is backup to Collins who never sees the field except on special teams.

A better scenario would be an exit in the 1st round of cuts. My opinion, and sorry if he is someone's favorite player.
RE: Don't get the love for the athletically challenged Berhe  
BlueLou : 5/28/2016 9:42 am : link
In comment 12974470 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
Best case scenario if we are to be a decent team is that he is backup to Collins who never sees the field except on special teams.

A better scenario would be an exit in the 1st round of cuts. My opinion, and sorry if he is someone's favorite player.


What do you base athletically challenged on?
Best case scenario  
Jay on the Island : 5/28/2016 11:12 am : link
Thompson, Berhe, or Jackson win the FS spot and are solid in coverage allowing Landon Collins to stay closer to the line of scrimmage where he will be a major force. Ideally the Giants will sign Leon Hall and he will play close to the level he played at last season. Hall would some interesting options on 3rd down as he can be lined up at safety with Thompson or Collins as the true safety and DRC, Jenkins, and Apple at CB.
RE: The fact that Craig Dahl  
Jay on the Island : 5/28/2016 11:13 am : link
In comment 12974388 JPinstripes said:
Quote:
is no longer the starter (or on the roster) at S is already a huge upgrade at the position from last year.

Absolutely for some reason Spags loved the intelligence and/or leadership of both Dahl and Kuhn and played them way too much and put them in situations where they had no business being in.
I am not a 40 time as the end-all and be-all  
Bob in Newburgh : 5/28/2016 11:19 am : link
But a S, even an in the box SS, who cannot break 4.7, which is what I remember, is not going to get it done as anything but a stop-gap interim.
There is no experience  
Doomster : 5/28/2016 1:06 pm : link
at free safety.....how the hell is that possible?.....and the guy who we count on as a strong safety, has one year, and many are assuming that he will just get better.....

Collins was thrown into the fire......he made some plays and missed a lot of others.....his pass coverage has to improve dramatically....so you expect him to learn from his mistakes, and being out there a whole season, he has a better understanding of what his role is......but until he actually does it, he is a question mark....

And the free safety position is a huge one.
I Hope Darrian Thompson  
Bluesbreaker : 5/28/2016 1:10 pm : link
Is the Goods .....
A Ball Hawking Safety is what the Dr ordered ..
Lastly can we at least catch a break with the injuries .
I don't see Cooper Taylor making it they should just cut him and get it over with .
Maybe the Guy catches on later in his career but no more waiting on a players health .
RE: I am not a 40 time as the end-all and be-all  
BlueLou : 5/28/2016 1:50 pm : link
In comment 12974571 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
But a S, even an in the box SS, who cannot break 4.7, which is what I remember, is not going to get it done as anything but a stop-gap interim.


The thing is, if you buy the idea that Nat Berhe isn't athletic enough to play free safety based on his combine stuff (or even just his 4.71 40 yard dash in a vacuum) then Darian Thompson ALSO isn't athletic enough: Berhe ran a 4.71, Thompson a 4.69... Most other events Berhe was better, sometimes significantly so... Berhe's combine results listed first below:

Vert jump 35.5 vs 32.5
Broad jump 117 vs 118
bench press 15 vs 12
3 cone 7.08 vs 7.26
Short shuttle 4.22 vs 4.33

Berhe's only 5'10" vs Thompson's 6'2", but Berhe's arms are 1/4" longer.

0.02 seconds while running a 40 yard dash isn't jack, but most of the other combine measurements, taken together, suggest Berhe is a better athlete. Now you probably have less enthusiasm for Thompson, eh?

But the combine ++ guys, Jackson and M. Thompson, weren't productive like Berhe and D. Thompson.

Pick your poison.
they seam very set  
msh : 5/28/2016 2:07 pm : link
at the safety position now collins is the SS no question but has enough FS skills to make plays against the run and pass they then have thompson and berhe playing for the FS and 3rd safety respectively and some depth at safety with the other thompson and possibly cooper taylor best they had a safety in many years and the CB corp looks top to bottom best they might ever have had
D. Thompson ....  
Manny in CA : 5/28/2016 2:32 pm : link

Supposedly ran a 4.5 forty @ his pro Day. If that's true and he's a true ball-hawk, then ........
RE: D. Thompson ....  
BlueLou : 5/28/2016 3:14 pm : link
In comment 12974695 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Supposedly ran a 4.5 forty @ his pro Day. If that's true and he's a true ball-hawk, then ........


Manny, NFLdraftscout lists his 40 at the Boise pro day as 4.58. Considering the typical pro day vs combine difference, not sure that's much improved over his combine 4.69.

Doesn't matter if the guy can flat out play, but still...
The same source lists Berhe's pro day 40  
BlueLou : 5/28/2016 3:16 pm : link
as 4.55, faster than Thompson's. FWIW.
Assuming accurate reporting, there was a health reason for Thompson's  
Bob in Newburgh : 5/28/2016 4:55 pm : link
poor combine showing in the 40.

As to the pro day versus combine differential, it makes no sense that it always better by about .1. I suspect that sometimes it is the same, sometimes slower, sometimes faster. The other explanation is that Team Player Personnel employees are all idiots who are easily duped.

Now there is a reason for Behre's combine 40 also. It is called being slow. He is certainly too slow to get excited about and it is inconceivable for him to be a successful deep S.

Again, if he is your favorite player - sorry, I do not know the man. What I have written is a fan's opinion, although it is not uninformed.
I don't have a horse in the race between Berhe and Thompson  
BlueLou : 5/28/2016 5:11 pm : link
Or any of the other young safeties. Just how labels get applied to players differently in contradiction to annotated measurements. If you are reasonable about how you present it, I care what your opinion actually is.
RE: RE: I am not a 40 time as the end-all and be-all  
Ed A. : 5/28/2016 5:15 pm : link
In comment 12974677 BlueLou said:
Quote:
In comment 12974571 Bob in Newburgh said:


Quote:


But a S, even an in the box SS, who cannot break 4.7, which is what I remember, is not going to get it done as anything but a stop-gap interim.



The thing is, if you buy the idea that Nat Berhe isn't athletic enough to play free safety based on his combine stuff (or even just his 4.71 40 yard dash in a vacuum) then Darian Thompson ALSO isn't athletic enough: Berhe ran a 4.71, Thompson a 4.69... Most other events Berhe was better, sometimes significantly so... Berhe's combine results listed first below:

Vert jump 35.5 vs 32.5
Broad jump 117 vs 118
bench press 15 vs 12
3 cone 7.08 vs 7.26
Short shuttle 4.22 vs 4.33

Berhe's only 5'10" vs Thompson's 6'2", but Berhe's arms are 1/4" longer.

0.02 seconds while running a 40 yard dash isn't jack, but most of the other combine measurements, taken together, suggest Berhe is a better athlete. Now you probably have less enthusiasm for Thompson, eh?

But the combine ++ guys, Jackson and M. Thompson, weren't productive like Berhe and D. Thompson.

Pick your poison.


Thompson was ill at the combine. He ran a 4.59 at his pro day. You can't ignore his production.
Here is roughly how I see it  
UberAlias : 5/29/2016 9:13 am : link
Collins the starter at SS with Nat Berhe his backup. I know Berhe is small, but flies around tackles well and lacks ideal speed for free safety. Cooper Taylor I do not see sticking. Bennett Jackson is in the mix, and may be in consideration for nickel position. Mykkele Thompson and Darian Thompson will compete for free safety spot and I would give the edge to Thompson based on draft status.
I'd feel a lot better if one  
chris r : 5/29/2016 9:15 am : link
safety spot was a sure thing.
Uh,  
Doomster : 5/29/2016 9:41 am : link
Here is roughly how I see it
UberAlias : 9:13 am : link : reply
Mykkele Thompson and Darian Thompson will compete for free safety spot and I would give the edge to Thompson based on draft status.

They are both named Thompson.......how many remember Mykkele's draft status? 5th vs Darian's 3rd.....but for the most part, how was Mykkele even drafted? Many thought he should have been an UDFA.....

Darian looks like a FS, Mykkele doesn't, by virtue of the fact that he actually made plays at FS in college.........but that doesn't guarantee he can play in the pros.....

We need a FS...if Darian can pull this off, it will be a huge step for this defense, and if he can't Jerry will be scrambling again for another team's castoff....
I vote for the thompson twins  
xman : 5/29/2016 11:12 am : link
to have us singing praise at the S position
RE: Uh,  
BlueLou : 5/29/2016 5:41 pm : link
In comment 12975194 Doomster said:
Quote:
Here is roughly how I see it
UberAlias : 9:13 am : link : reply
Mykkele Thompson and Darian Thompson will compete for free safety spot and I would give the edge to Thompson based on draft status.

They are both named Thompson.......how many remember Mykkele's draft status? 5th vs Darian's 3rd.....but for the most part, how was Mykkele even drafted? Many thought he should have been an UDFA.....

Darian looks like a FS, Mykkele doesn't, by virtue of the fact that he actually made plays at FS in college.........but that doesn't guarantee he can play in the pros.....

We need a FS...if Darian can pull this off, it will be a huge step for this defense, and if he can't Jerry will be scrambling again for another team's castoff....


Doomster frankly you've lowered yourself to dumpster with a few of your observations... 1st it doesn't matter one whit what Joe bliftspik draft air jockey thought about Mykkele Thompson's value prior to the Giants drafting him in the 5th round in 2015... the Giants themselves had a 5th round grade on him, capiche?

2nd of all, the circumstances that sent JR scrambling among the NFL's discard pile at S last year WASN'T THAT BERHE, THOMPSON, AND JACKSON STUNK. THEY WERE ALL HURT WITH SEASON ENDING INJURIES THAT THEY HAVE ALL SINCE RECOVERED FROM. Well not sure Jackson is recovered fully, but Berhe and M. Thompson are, and D. Thompson has been added to the mix.

There is just as good a chance that the Giants will be flush with (at least adequate) safety talent this year as they will be digging in the refuse pile of NFL castoffs.
BlueLou.  
Klaatu : 5/29/2016 5:56 pm : link
I've trademarked "Dumpster" for "Doomster." You owe me 18 cents, pally.
RE: BlueLou.  
BlueLou : 5/29/2016 6:02 pm : link
In comment 12975642 Klaatu said:
Quote:
I've trademarked "Dumpster" for "Doomster." You owe me 18 cents, pally.


Heck I figured I had at least 1 Klaatu credit for my light sabre training crack on the Jerrel Adams query thread... maybe 2.
RE: RE: BlueLou.  
Klaatu : 5/29/2016 6:12 pm : link
In comment 12975654 BlueLou said:
Quote:
In comment 12975642 Klaatu said:


Quote:


I've trademarked "Dumpster" for "Doomster." You owe me 18 cents, pally.



Heck I figured I had at least 1 Klaatu credit for my light sabre training crack on the Jerrel Adams query thread... maybe 2.


Okay, you get one. After that it's cash on the barrelhead. NO CHECKS!
Speaking of barrel heads...  
BlueLou : 5/29/2016 6:15 pm : link
Sounds like you're drinking something tastier than Perrier this evening.
RE: Speaking of barrel heads...  
Klaatu : 5/29/2016 6:19 pm : link
In comment 12975669 BlueLou said:
Quote:
Sounds like you're drinking something tastier than Perrier this evening.


Perrier? Good God, not even in the 80's, dude! Perish the very thought of it!
there is a good mix of different skill sets at Safety  
tempit : 5/29/2016 7:40 pm : link
would not surprise me that Safeties will be mixed and matched all year based on opponent formation / passing attack(s).

There may not be a set pair of safeties that is a fixture as in Strong and Free, but a rotation of two and three safeties packaged based on opponents' tendencies / formattions and situation ( down, distance, where ball is spotted on the field and or if blitz is called ).

More Safeties may be on the Roster and less Corners not only to have more of them on the field at the same time but also for Special Team duty.



Who knows? There's always a chance that one of the young guys  
David in LA : 5/30/2016 12:27 am : link
steps up to the plate and holds down the FS spot for a couple years. I didn't know what to expect of Gibril Wilson when he was picked up in the 5th round. If we can get one of the young guys to step up like Gibril, our rebuilding process will have taken significant strides forward.
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