Bluntly ... what in the fuck is wrong with parents?
Longer version. A kid who plays basketball in my program, he's a baseball player, too. He's throwing today ... and the parents are on FB ... in a rain delay ... telling me all the great things he's doing ... and they end it with "his slider is really working today."
I asked about it, because he's JUST 13. The mom is now getting huffy, saying that his "trainer" is teaching it to him ... that it doesn't break THAT much ... and that he knows what he's doing.
I encouraged her to do some reading online ... she says she and her husband have. lol
All fucking righty then.
Happy trails!
Am I getting this completely wrong, baseball people? I would never let my kids throw breaking pitches of any type when I coached my son's team in Little League. Emphasized changing speeds ... location ... control.
I may have already pissed them off, but I'll quit while I'm behind. After all, his slider is REALLY WORKING!
smh
/rant
Proper technique, no matter the pitch, is a MUST. Not the pitch, but technique.
Encouraging fastballs only is as bad as encouraging sliders/curves. Overthrowing an improper fastball is devastating to the arm. So is incorrectly throwing a curve or slider.
Overthrowing once the arm is tired is the #1 proven issue. Playing catcher when not pitching, TERRIBLE. Exceeding pitch counts, TERRIBLE. NOT TELLING ONE TEAM COACH YOUR OTHER TEAMS PITCH COUNTS, DEADLY!!!! Pitching all year long and not resting your arm, TERRIBLE.
Throwing proper and infrequent curves, sliders, etc. Not convinced this ruins a kid.
As a parent of a young pitcher. Focus on sorts diversity for your kid. Help them, guide them, but don't live through them. If they choose to pitch, don't baby them and their arm. But be smart about it.
GREAT point.
But I also had a dad last year tell me his 10 year old son threw 9 different pitches. And most of them he perfected...
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I also highly doubt he is actually throwing a slider.
GREAT point.
But I also had a dad last year tell me his 10 year old son threw 9 different pitches. And most of them he perfected...
The parents you are talking about and Beezer is talking about are probably the same types that will request a "preventative" Tommy John surgery for their kid in a few years.
Parents today are missing the boat. The best thing for a pitcher to do is play other sports. As a HS coach, we encourage our players and pitchers to play other sports. It keeps them in shape, and more importantly, they'll learn more standing on the foul-line with 4 seconds left needing to hit those free throws than they will working year-round on a 3rd or 4th pitch. Our best players are always the 2 or 3 sport kids who've learned to deal with pressure in other situations which they can translate to the mound or the batters box when it matters.
I've never heard of sliders leading to arm injuries and it certainly didn't seem stressful when I threw it back in the day.
No, the truth is exactly the opposite. A slider, especially thrown with a cocked wrist, is the most damaging pitch an adolescent can throw.
We start with the supposition that they're going to do it regardless so you might as well teach them proper mechanics. The key points are to emphasize that the curve is an off-speed pitch. Don't try and throw it too hard. And the second is to strive for rotation first, with break coming later.
We teach it with a curtain roll with the old-fashioned circle that you use to pull down on it. With a relaxed wrist (a floppy one)' the action of pulling down on the curtain is the same as throwing a curve. Everything in his delivery is the same, except the grip, until he reaches his ear. Then he pulls down, with his middle finger on a long-seam. At early stages he can even take the index finger off the ball. The thumb pushes the ball out. I use hockey pucks to teach rotation as well.
13 year-olds fall in love with the pitch once it starts breaking for them so be sure to limit its use to maybe 5 of his AMA-mandated 75-pitch limit. A change should also be developed. We teach the conventional box instead of the circle. The circle tends to dive far too early thrown from young fingers. Later on he can try it.
Warning sign is a tight dime button on the ball. If you see that while catching him, you know he is using slider mechanics, anatomically incorrect ones. He will blow out his elbow unless he is a freak like Sparky Lyle or Steve Carlton.
Curve ball on the other hand actually hurt my arm to throw because of the downward wrist snap.
Again, pitch type is very low down the ladder of actual arm injuries to kids. It doesn't help, but it isn't a cause either. An over exerted fastball is far worse than any other pitch as a matter of fact.
- poor mechanics
- tired arm
Those are the two killers!!!!!
Btw- that kid with "nine pitches" I mentioned earlier. He was actually a really good pitcher. Excellent control. Problem was his dad drove the kid so hard, example - throwing as many pitch types as years you've lived... Kid doesn't play baseball anymore, turned to hockey. Sad.
Curve ball on the other hand actually hurt my arm to throw because of the downward wrist snap.
Which goes back to, an incorrectly taught pitch is what helps lead to an arm hurting.
Chris, great, GREAT stuff!!
Kids first and foremost should learn to master the fastball and be able to spot it anywhere. I coach 10u travel in GA (super competitive) and my boys only throw fastballs and a change.
We have gone up against teams that had kids out here throwing as many as 4 different pitches.
Yes, I'm a travel coach but youth Travel is ruining these kids arms as well. Kids weren't meant to throw baseballs 10 months a year.
I only have a 5 month spring season.
We shut it done July and August and only work fundamentals in the fall . Not much throwing at all. Most of my kids play football too, so it's way too much stress on them playing both at the same time.
Followed your advice, and looked up a study by Andrews. I STRONGLY suggest every parent of a pitcher read the authors suggestions at the end. Notice a theme with each and every one of their suggestions?
Andrews study - ( New Window )
There are a bunch of reasons for the rise... Over throwing , improper mechanics , lengthy seasons, throwing junk, improper warm up without stretching....
At the end of the day, and it's my opinion...they should master the 2 and 4 seam fastballs , and then good change before even thinking about a curveball.
From the research I've done, proper mechanics are the most important aspect of arm health.
My son played baseball through all the various leagues, high school and then D1 college as a pitcher. He also battled arm and shoulder injuries beginning at 14, including Tommy John surgery at 17. I'm no expert but did / do have a vested interest, so i read and watch almost everything I see on the subject. Most experts agree that poor mechanics leads to arm problems but in my experience overuse is another. My son used to play every inning of 5 games on a given weekend; pitching 6 - 7 innings, catching 5 - 6 innings, then playing center the rest. In hindsight that was way too much.
Looking back I should have gotten my son pitching lessons from the time he was 8 and limited the amt of time he played. But realistically, how is anyone to know an 8 year had the talent to be drafted (which my son had until more arm problems in college)? My son now says some of his best memories as a youth was playing ball from 10 - 15. So without that crystal ball what parent should take that joy away on a chance?
I've never heard of sliders leading to arm injuries and it certainly didn't seem stressful when I threw it back in the day.
It's actually the worst pitch for the elbow. Brother-inlaw has been a Little League coach for over a decade and, from his league, an 11 yr old qualified for Tommy John surgery due to the damage sliders cause. I agree the curve also puts a ton of stress on the shoulder.
From a mechanical standpoint, the kids either have poor mechanics which puts a ton more stress on the shoulder/elbow and/or they have good mechanics which alter once the kid becomes fatigued b/c these coaches keep putting them on the mound.
The parents are nuts.
I've never heard of sliders leading to arm injuries and it certainly didn't seem stressful when I threw it back in the day.
Curve ball on the other hand actually hurt my arm to throw because of the downward wrist snap.
I'm sure your slider was devastating.
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Proper technique, no matter the pitch, is a MUST
From the research I've done, proper mechanics are the most important aspect of arm health.
My son played baseball through all the various leagues, high school and then D1 college as a pitcher. He also battled arm and shoulder injuries beginning at 14, including Tommy John surgery at 17. I'm no expert but did / do have a vested interest, so i read and watch almost everything I see on the subject. Most experts agree that poor mechanics leads to arm problems but in my experience overuse is another. My son used to play every inning of 5 games on a given weekend; pitching 6 - 7 innings, catching 5 - 6 innings, then playing center the rest. In hindsight that was way too much.
Looking back I should have gotten my son pitching lessons from the time he was 8 and limited the amt of time he played. But realistically, how is anyone to know an 8 year had the talent to be drafted (which my son had until more arm problems in college)? My son now says some of his best memories as a youth was playing ball from 10 - 15. So without that crystal ball what parent should take that joy away on a chance?
Reality is, overuse is the number one problem, far and away. Throwing with a tired arm at max effort, will lead to poor mechanics which will lead to an arm injury.
Saying "he is throwing a curveball too young" is such a horrendous overstatement. I argue it so strongly because people have had it hammered into their heads "as long as he isn't throwing a curveball, he can't get hurt". That is seriously dangerous thinking and misunderstanding for parents of any kid who pitches.
Smoltz will stress long toss because that's what the Braves always stressed to their pitchers. Many teams are adamant it's a negative. Who knows. Plus, of all former Braves pitchers, Smoltz is the last one to advise about a healthy arm lol
110% false. Anyone who is a parent of, or coaches young kids, please do you're own learning on this and make your own informed opinion. I beg of you, do it for your kids. Many parents are brainwashed that "curveball = TJS. Their for no curveball = no problems"
Reality is, overuse is the number one problem, far and away. Throwing with a tired arm at max effort, will lead to poor mechanics which will lead to an arm injury.
Saying "he is throwing a curveball too young" is such a horrendous overstatement. I argue it so strongly because people have had it hammered into their heads "as long as he isn't throwing a curveball, he can't get hurt". That is seriously dangerous thinking and misunderstanding for parents of any kid who pitches.
Smoltz will stress long toss because that's what the Braves always stressed to their pitchers. Many teams are adamant it's a negative. Who knows. Plus, of all former Braves pitchers, Smoltz is the last one to advise about a healthy arm lol
You are correct about it not being as simple as don't throw a curve. Smoltz actually talks about one thing you mentioned, which was throwing at max effort. That is a big negative and tends to happen way more often when kids are being told only to pitch.
I've never heard of sliders leading to arm injuries and it certainly didn't seem stressful when I threw it back in the day.
Wow Just Wow
Radar once again showing his ass.
But watch out for his slider!
I would love to take a few pokes at radar's "slider."
Why?
Some leagues do ban them btw
Well, I'd say the circle-change and knuckle curve are fine b/c the mechanics are the same as the fastball without stress on the elbow or shoulder.
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like a curve ball. You release it off the tips of your fingers like throwing a football.
I've never heard of sliders leading to arm injuries and it certainly didn't seem stressful when I threw it back in the day.
It's actually the worst pitch for the elbow. Brother-inlaw has been a Little League coach for over a decade and, from his league, an 11 yr old qualified for Tommy John surgery due to the damage sliders cause. I agree the curve also puts a ton of stress on the shoulder.
From a mechanical standpoint, the kids either have poor mechanics which puts a ton more stress on the shoulder/elbow and/or they have good mechanics which alter once the kid becomes fatigued b/c these coaches keep putting them on the mound.
The parents are nuts.
There's also a growing number of parents asking for TJ Surgery without the necessary damage done, because it will improve their pitching. What is wrong with parents where they want someone to cut into their child's arm just so they can throw a baseball harder?
Then we get a text that says, "My kid made the travel team, so he'll be playing in tournaments every weekend in June and July. And sometimes we don't know when and where these tournaments will be until just a few days before."
So now we're thinking of just skipping over Pittsburgh entirely. News flash! Your kid isn't going to be playing professionally. He isn't good enough. How about letting him have a life?
Travels got its pros and cons. More now than just a few years ago. It isn't for everyone, but it is also directly responsible for so many incredibly young players coming in and becoming instant superstars in the game. Anyone that complains about it, talk to the old timers in the sport and ask them what they did as kids on their way... Kids back then played WAY more games than they do now.
Then we get a text that says, "My kid made the travel team, so he'll be playing in tournaments every weekend in June and July. And sometimes we don't know when and where these tournaments will be until just a few days before."
Travel baseball is the worst. It's like a work day. Travel, crazy hours, rush, rush, rush and hopefully a few minutes to cut the lawn before going back to work. Of course, there are the weekday travel games. I came from a blue collar family so I guess my father got out early. No way I can do that.
Travels got its pros and cons. More now than just a few years ago. It isn't for everyone, but it is also directly responsible for so many incredibly young players coming in and becoming instant superstars in the game. Anyone that complains about it, talk to the old timers in the sport and ask them what they did as kids on their way... Kids back then played WAY more games than they do now.
Kids PLAYED a lot more. Now, it's all organized ball. In my neighborhood, kids don't leave the house unless they're being taken to practice or a game.
/thread
Fathers who let their son's pitch in more than one league and throw the maximum number of pitches in each league are the biggest cause of arm injuries, in my opinion. Minimal use of curves at a young age is fine if proper technique is taught, mastered, and adhered to during the game. Hint: most youth team coaches (travel or little league) are inadequate in this area and shouldn't be relied upon.
Just two cents from a parent who knows more kids with elbow injuries than I care to recall (none of which were my son).
Surprised to see this kid scheduled to start against my sons team. Regular season little league game. Why surprised? Because he pitched to the limit for his travel team the day before. How do we know? Because one of our kids is on his team. Even HE knew to say something.
His mom goes to the other side and is talking to his mom. Comes back and quote "she's nuts!!!! She said to not worry, he took an Advil and iced his arm all night last night". Every single inning she went back his mom to talk to her. Every inning "oh don't worry, he's fine. He's nine, he doesn't get tired".
Funny part is in the second inning he drops a curve ball on one of our kids. I hear the beaters dad all annoyed say "a curveball? You serious? Just get him Tommy John now". Not because the kid was throwing max little league pitch count the day after a max travel pitch count. Because he threw ONE curveball (3 all game).
Summary. The kid is a kid. He would pitch a full game every day if you'd let him. Throws with incredible mechanics. His three curveballs will do zero to his arm. Yet his coach left him in there. In a meaningless regular season Rec game (daddy bragging rights, my son hit a two run homerun off him - he had the only two hits off him the whole game, pat pat pat on the back). And after repeatedly having the mom talked to, she ultimately didn't care or do anything. THAT is nuts.
No doctor in his right mind should perform the surgery. but, that hasn't stopped parents from asking.
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But, even with good mechanics, every breaking pitch stresses part of the arm because they all require an even more unnatural throwing motion of the arm than just a regular fastball.
110% false. Anyone who is a parent of, or coaches young kids, please do you're own learning on this and make your own informed opinion. I beg of you, do it for your kids. Many parents are brainwashed that "curveball = TJS. Their for no curveball = no problems"
Then we get a text that says, "My kid made the travel team, so he'll be playing in tournaments every weekend in June and July. And sometimes we don't know when and where these tournaments will be until just a few days before."
So now we're thinking of just skipping over Pittsburgh entirely. News flash! Your kid isn't going to be playing professionally. He isn't good enough. How about letting him have a life?
Fathers who let their son's pitch in more than one league and throw the maximum number of pitches in each league are the biggest cause of arm injuries, in my opinion. Minimal use of curves at a young age is fine if proper technique is taught, mastered, and adhered to during the game. Hint: most youth team coaches (travel or little league) are inadequate in this area and shouldn't be relied upon.
Just two cents from a parent who knows more kids with elbow injuries than I care to recall (none of which were my son).
Surprised to see this kid scheduled to start against my sons team. Regular season little league game. Why surprised? Because he pitched to the limit for his travel team the day before. How do we know? Because one of our kids is on his team. Even HE knew to say something.
His mom goes to the other side and is talking to his mom. Comes back and quote "she's nuts!!!! She said to not worry, he took an Advil and iced his arm all night last night". Every single inning she went back his mom to talk to her. Every inning "oh don't worry, he's fine. He's nine, he doesn't get tired".
Funny part is in the second inning he drops a curve ball on one of our kids. I hear the beaters dad all annoyed say "a curveball? You serious? Just get him Tommy John now". Not because the kid was throwing max little league pitch count the day after a max travel pitch count. Because he threw ONE curveball (3 all game).
Summary. The kid is a kid. He would pitch a full game every day if you'd let him. Throws with incredible mechanics. His three curveballs will do zero to his arm. Yet his coach left him in there. In a meaningless regular season Rec game (daddy bragging rights, my son hit a two run homerun off him - he had the only two hits off him the whole game, pat pat pat on the back). And after repeatedly having the mom talked to, she ultimately didn't care or do anything. THAT is nuts.
On the flip side, we have one mom who read an article in the NYT about 30 pitches being the max for kids. So she is constantly interested in her son's pitch count. On our team of mostly 11 year olds, it is rare that a kid pitches and throws less than 30 pitches. There is a 3 inning limit for kids in a single game. I don't think we've had a kid throw 3 full innings in a game yet, but they have gone over 40-50 pitches. But, that is also the extent of their pitching for a week, if that is the case and we try to keep the number below that.
Two things though. The curve ball vs fast ball debate. Make up your own mind on it, but please make a fully informed and educated decision. Since we are talking elbows in this thread (THS), I assume that's your reference of tension on the arm. But a curveball does NOT put more torque/strain on an elbow. It doesn't. With that being said - I do not allow my son to throw a curveball. And he won't. He doesn't NEED a curveball (yet). He will learn it when he needs it.
Three pitch innings and maxing kids at 50 pitches at 11? Can never argue with max counts. But if a kid is having trouble getting through 3 innings in under 50 pitches at 11 years old - he needs to find a pitching coach with a better pitching philosophy.
Two things though. The curve ball vs fast ball debate. Make up your own mind on it, but please make a fully informed and educated decision. Since we are talking elbows in this thread (THS), I assume that's your reference of tension on the arm. But a curveball does NOT put more torque/strain on an elbow. It doesn't. With that being said - I do not allow my son to throw a curveball. And he won't. He doesn't NEED a curveball (yet). He will learn it when he needs it.
Three pitch innings and maxing kids at 50 pitches at 11? Can never argue with max counts. But if a kid is having trouble getting through 3 innings in under 50 pitches at 11 years old - he needs to find a pitching coach with a better pitching philosophy.
Our kids are all in thier first year of throwing at a farther distance (last year 43', this year 46'6") and they are all on the small side. We also only have 4 kids who can pitch, and two are hurt (not pitching related). So, we have to carefully manage arms when we have more than 1 game in a few day span. Generally, they will throw 2 innings with about 45 pitches. Our two guys throwing right now are slight and they get tired. They have each thrown into a third inning and we tend to cap their day at 60 pitches.
One thing we tried last week which worked for both kids was to alternate innings. Our better of the two kids ended up throwing a perfect 1st and 3rd inning with 4 Ks and only about 30 pitches. Our other pitcher (my son) threw better than he has all year with his final 4 batters being his strongest showing in the game and season. He threw about 45 pitches in 2 innings. Our pitchers have been done in by some poor fielding the last few outings, which has upped their counts.
As a parent of a youth player, please learn about the arm as best as you can. Do it for your son and the other kids you're coaching. There are a ton of often repeated mantras. Most are flat out wrong - well meaning but wrong. I'll tell you as a medical fact, a curveball is no more stressful on the elbow as a fastball is.
Regarding the alternate innings. Seriously reconsider that. Sure, performance may have improved. And you mean well "resting" their arms more. But it is extremely dangerous to pitch without a proper warm up. Even more dangerous to warm up, then cool down, then pitch again.
Second, nobody is pitching without properly warming up. And, our pitching hasn't hurt us. It has been some half a lineup of dead weight and a couple of shitty plays in the field each game to open the floodgates. With all that we have been a competitive team, but not a formidable one.
Third, I know about the arm from having played myself and coaching for 7 years now. I disagree about the curveball and the elbow. My experience both as a former player and coach is that most kids even older than this are not properly shown how to throw certain pitches (a lot of that goes back to either them tinkering themselves or parents who know nothing about pitching), or don't have the wrist strength yet, or don't get it. A curve is a pitch, in my experience, that doesn't come easy to get that good movement. Young kids experimenting with that pitch that can't grip it properly and snap properly are likely jerking their arms and that comes back to the elbow. We can agree to disagree on that point. Does it mean I think throwing a curve now will kill a kid's arm? No. But, I also don't think it helps. I also know that pitching was not my strength as a kid. Fielding, hitting, baserunning I can coach and coach well. Pitching, so-so. I can coach decent mechanics, but not the finer points of throwing different pitches.
One of the coaches for my son's team who speaks Spanish asked the manager why in the world would you have these kids throwing curve-balls at 9 years old and he told him that kind of pitch separates the average kid from the "travel kid" down there and the parents were not troubled by it, so he felt obligated to have them throw it. Absolutely amazing what parents are willing to put their kids through.
Sad thing is, it's not the first time we've come across this situation. It's not just the international teams that do it.
9 years old! You gotta be kidding me.
Reality is, the better pitchers (results wise) at a young age tend to throw the ball much harder than most f(again, max effort) and learned a curveball young. So the older mentality was - kids that throw curveballs tend to injury
Their elbow. True, but not cause and affect. There is actually science to this stuff, it's there,find it and understand it.