Raanan: Jake Matthews progression provides hope for Flowers

Flowers was a top 10 pick in Jerry World.

As for the article,clashing with Flaherty should be cause for concern.

Flowers was put in a Tough situation . I think he played pretty good but playing hurt a good portion of the year .We can all hope that he steps up and has a healthy year and progresses .
He is a Huge key right now one would expect that he learned much more this off season and produces otherwise we are in deep shit . He was somewhat of a gamble . There was one report that surfaced on Bleacher report on each teams worst
player and he was this writers selection now of course it's not my opinion but the fact that who ever wrote it selected him .

was not good last year and that was to be expected with him being a 22 year old rookie and getting tossed into the Left Tackle role. He showed flashes throughout the season and even fought through injury. I think he will improve come this year but he did at time look pretty damn bad last season

combined with Richburg commenting about coaching in the NFL when he's only played under Flaherty as a position coach, sounds like Pat Flaherty didn't do such a great job and maybe deserved to be let go.

In comment 12977363 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

combined with Richburg commenting about coaching in the NFL when he's only played under Flaherty as a position coach, sounds like Pat Flaherty didn't do such a great job and maybe deserved to be let go.

I was thinking the same. Feels like Flaherty was a Coughlin guy, one McAdoo quickly replaced when he took over

was a twenty-one year old rookie playing LT on a bum ankle. He’s got the attitude and demeanor. I expect a big improvement this year.

when they say things like draft a RT and the line is set for 10 years.

besides the idiocy of the statement from a timing/contract/salary cap perspective. Flowers was not good at LT. For a variety of reasons.

Some people questioned if it was the position best suited for him from the beginning.

Everyone loves the toughness and the nastiness, the great lines of the past decade has that with guys like Seubert and Snee, even Diehl had some of that.

but it does not in any way make you technically sound.

Can he learn to be? Maybe, but in no way is it a given that Flowers will a) improve or b) improve enough to be considered a "good" tackle.

I think people were just so done with Beatty's finesse game and injury history (which is overstated) they view Flowers as the anti-Beatty.

I hope he becomes the next Joe Thomas, but nothing is guaranteed.

relate "finesse" to soft. Technique-based linemen are "soft" while big hulking plodders (who may not even be good) are tough.

Why didn't we hear about this before?

If Ranaan is a hotshot, why did he need multiple sources to tell him what was going on?

I'm not surprised that Flaherty is out, if that was going on along with his inability to develop mid-round talent.

A big improvement in the O-line may occur just because Flaherty was replaced.

From what I saw, it was his hand placement that was the issue. I'm sure the ankle slowed him down, no doubt, but he sets his hands wide and "catches" defenders, that's the issue more than foot speed.

I am definitely hopeful he'll improve, and I think he has the right attitude, but I'm not someone that thinks just because his ankle is healthy he'll make some huge leap forward without cleaning up the technique.

Also, the kid had a few years at Miami, to expect that he'll just clean up his technique due to moving to the NFL is foolish. Miami isn't what it used to be, but I'm guessing their Oline coach isn't some hack.

for playing that position. Legs and lower body and footwork is infinitely important. Hand placement doesn't mean much if you can't anchor yourself.

Had the same injury. He told me it's hard to walk & almost impossible to practice/play. He missed a month with the same injury that Flowers had.

We're going to the Super Bowl.

on a bad OL, so he was going to start either at LT or RT....Beatty determined which side....

Did he play lights out? No.....where all the pressures due to the ankle, being a rookie, or lack of talent....this season will answer that question...

This OL can go south in a heartbeat, because there is no depth at all....and all the resources spent on the defense will mean nothing if Eli is on his back....

with arguably the worst OLine of his career? Couldn't be more done with that phantom argument.

In comment 12977460 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

with arguably the worst OLine of his career? Couldn't be more done with that phantom argument.

No, we've been told on here that Eli's agility in the pocket reduced a HUGE amounts of probable sacks..

as much as it was having among the quickest in the league timed speed from snap to throw.

In comment 12977234 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

can we be any more dramatic after one season...

Ranaan is a hack. It was good to see Jerry bark at him during the Coughlin departure press conference.

He wouldn't have made it very far with some of you calling the shots.

In comment 12977329 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

In comment 12977322 jcn56 said: Quote: 'Flowers was really bad' from last year's performance? Did people suffer from amnesia all of a sudden and forget how David Diehl performed most of the time at LT? He wasn't anywhere near great - he was serviceable, but he got the job done. Flowers did a fine job - he struggled at times, but he was a rookie. Do you have a long list of rookies that have done well starting at LT from day one? If so, please share because I sure as hell don't have one. Not trying to say that Flowers was great, or that he didn't have some bad games - but for a rookie who was supposedly working with a bad sprain, I thought he played well. The point isn't that you compare him to other bad rookies and say he is going to be fine. For every bad rookie that worked out I can show you more that didn't. That has no relation to Flowers. Once again, assuming a rookie will play bad and factoring in the bum ankle does not mean that he will be good the following year. Yes, he was bad. People do not realize this because of our offense. Eli and the offense get rid of the ball quickly. Therefore, most fans think Flowers is doing a great job. The same goes for the right side of the line. Oh, Eli wasn't sacked that much. So what? That doesn't mean the line played well.

That's nonsense - a rookie gets compared to other rookies. Otherwise, there's an implication that experience/development plays no part in this. The best comparisons would be against the rookie seasons of current, established successful OLTs.

As for the quick drops - there were plenty of times that Eli held the ball and nobody got open, and he managed to stay relatively clean. Yes, the quick strike offense makes it easier for the OL to hold since there's so little time involved, but they still have to block plenty.

In comment 12977332 area junc said:

Quote:

Thank you robbieballs. Those type of comments never go well here but its the truth + and he is 1 of my favorite players on the team. Plus u add in how many 1st round OTs end up sucking-there's that element as well

They never go well here when you post them, because you're utterly and entirely full of shit, Thomas.

will he work well in more of a zone blocking scheme? Has he ever done this before?

In comment 12977222 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

Not sure what PF expected from a virtual gimp all season long

Yeah, really. Would he prefer a guy that is content to say he can't go all season or one that tries to tough it out. It's on the coach if they leave him in if he isn't doing what he should or is too hurt to play.

In comment 12977408 Stan in LA said:

Quote:

We're going to the Super Bowl.

Nice job Stan. I tend to agree with thought process...

Because....yeah...hmm...

Gill Brandt put him on his all rookie team. I thought for a rookie he played well .

Flowers was 21 last season. I can't think of another 21 year old rookie who played LT from the get-go.

He played LT as a R and has already played better than Fisher, Joeckel, Matthews, Johnson and Robinson when they played the position.

We get it, depth is an issue - In todays NFL every team is lacking OL depth. The Cowboys re-signed C. Brown as a backup - that speaks volumes. Pickings are slim

In comment 12977292 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

on he hasn't proven anything. He proved he can hang in there when the whole line was a disaster, while also nursing an injury others have sat for weeks with. Eli had arguably his best season with that Oline and basically 1 weapon; IMO Flowers can only get better. He's no different than any other rookie that struggles. You trust in the FO that drafted him and the coaches to get the most out of him. He was/is a young man that was still growing and added to one of the worst lines in football, it was an uphill battle even before the injury.

Yeah, i give him a pass on his performance because he was a rookie and because of the injury.

Kudos for toughing it out while injured.

If he dips this year, we will be drafting OT in round 1-2 i suppose.

How many rookie LT's step right in and light the league on fire? Not many.

Flowers had his ups and downs as you'd expect but it's reasonable to assume he'd build upon his rookie campaign.

I think the analysis here is way too negative. I love this kids attitude. Brings a college pride mentality to the team like Brandon Jacobs did. There are flaws in his technique I saw on the college tape, and he has seem to have been injury prone. But I like his toughness. Someone to root for.

My take on Flowers coming out of Miami was he had the size, the work ethic, and love for the game. The knock on him was, he often showed a lack of play strength particularly with bull rushes and when trying to get a kick set on speed rushes.

The thought was that he just had technique issues. But if you go back to his college tape it looks like he lacked lower body strength and got away with it by using his helmet to duck into blocks and just fighting to stay in plays that he lost. I have rarely see him use a good punch to slow a rusher down or knock him back and most of his best blocks are cut blocks (which he cant do any more). He also seems to get some highlight reel blocks out in space when he gets momentum, but he often does not find the right defender to block.

Watching his 2015 rookie tape, i see very little improvement in his functional strength and his hand placement/punch. He stopped ducking his helmet into contact, which actually worked very well for him in college. Ereck is a very good cut blocker, not going to help him that he cannot rely on this technique going forward.

The hope for Flowers is the ankle issue are behind him and he has continued to add functional lower body strength through the off-season. But based on my review (Youtube for college, NFL Gamepass for rookie year) of his progression from 2013->2014->2015, the rate of change on his improvement actually peaked already between 2013 and 2014.

His eyes are brown?

Functional lower body strength problems up yer arse...

Young - only 21 and starting Left Tackle,
One full year of experience starting at left tackle,
Great work ethic,
Gym Rat - Top in combine Bench Press of all players (2015 and 2016)
Plays with mean streak thru the whistle,
Loves football,
high pain threshold and hates to leave the field, toughing out injuries
missed only one game last year.
No off field issues.
This is a tough player committed to improvement. I trust the coaches know what they are doing and see a left tackle that will only improve. One year and writing this guy off is crazy.

The average NFL rookie doesn't do anything significant to help his team. Roughly two-thirds of all drafted players will be buried on benches, relegated to practice squads or outright released.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2455602-great-draft-class-doesnt-matter-rookies-rarely-have-an-immediate-impact - ( New Window )

there may be no position more difficult to transition to than OL.

In comment 12977893 steamheat said:

Quote:

My take on Flowers coming out of Miami was he had the size, the work ethic, and love for the game. The knock on him was, he often showed a lack of play strength particularly with bull rushes and when trying to get a kick set on speed rushes. The thought was that he just had technique issues. But if you go back to his college tape it looks like he lacked lower body strength and got away with it by using his helmet to duck into blocks and just fighting to stay in plays that he lost. I have rarely see him use a good punch to slow a rusher down or knock him back and most of his best blocks are cut blocks (which he cant do any more). He also seems to get some highlight reel blocks out in space when he gets momentum, but he often does not find the right defender to block. Watching his 2015 rookie tape, i see very little improvement in his functional strength and his hand placement/punch. He stopped ducking his helmet into contact, which actually worked very well for him in college. Ereck is a very good cut blocker, not going to help him that he cannot rely on this technique going forward. The hope for Flowers is the ankle issue are behind him and he has continued to add functional lower body strength through the off-season. But based on my review (Youtube for college, NFL Gamepass for rookie year) of his progression from 2013->2014->2015, the rate of change on his improvement actually peaked already between 2013 and 2014.

Your probably right. How he got drafted at all (Rd 1 no less) is still a mystery.

McAdoo will likely cut his ass by August.

Thanks!

Flowers was the worst in the world, yet the Giants were a top 10 offense last year.
JPP was the best in the world at "pressuring" the QB last season, and the Giants defense was the worst in the world.

I'm tired of stats like this.
Give me points and TDs all day over how many "pressures" our LT allowed.
Give me sacks and very few points allowed over "pressures" any day.

I wasnt worried about Flowers one bit. He did play with an injury for some time last season, and overall, he was a bad ass, huge dude, who did the job.
I expect him to be better in 2016, but I was not concerned for a minute.

"The Giants were forced to work around their tackles – Flowers and Marshall Newhouse – last year. They schemed around the deficiency, with Manning releasing the ball quicker than ever in order to avoid the inevitable pressure off the edges."

The staff be a lot better at evaluating these things than I, so I guess I should have trust in that they know what they're doing, because I certainly would have handled things differently. I would not have been so quick to anoint Flowers as the LT of the future and would have been deterred from bringing in another LT to compete for the position. I would have thought long and hard about drafting Tunsil, and that's if I hadn't already signed somebody in FA.

There is good reason to believe he may improve. But I am a bit puzzled as to why/how anyone can be so certain of it.

I'm sure they did.

They've been working Eli quicker since McAdoo joined. Maybe it's to get the ball off faster and get play quicker and get a better rhythm, but I don't believe that it was Flowers/Newhouse-specific. They could have had Dallas' Oline and they would still have gone to a quicker passing game.

In comment 12978300 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

I'm sure they did.

I'm sure they did too. But probably not during the draft.

Flowers with be great, some of us are acknowledging the clusterfuck he was thrown into at a super young age and will allow him atleast a couple of season before making a harder judgement of his level of play.

I think its fair to assume he will get better, how much is anyone's guess.

In comment 12978300 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

I'm sure they did.

Have you read anything suggesting they did? The beat writers take has been that he was not much of an option.

In comment 12977893 steamheat said:

Quote:

My take on Flowers coming out of Miami was he had the size, the work ethic, and love for the game. The knock on him was, he often showed a lack of play strength particularly with bull rushes and when trying to get a kick set on speed rushes. The thought was that he just had technique issues. But if you go back to his college tape it looks like he lacked lower body strength and got away with it by using his helmet to duck into blocks and just fighting to stay in plays that he lost. I have rarely see him use a good punch to slow a rusher down or knock him back and most of his best blocks are cut blocks (which he cant do any more). He also seems to get some highlight reel blocks out in space when he gets momentum, but he often does not find the right defender to block. Watching his 2015 rookie tape, i see very little improvement in his functional strength and his hand placement/punch. He stopped ducking his helmet into contact, which actually worked very well for him in college. Ereck is a very good cut blocker, not going to help him that he cannot rely on this technique going forward. The hope for Flowers is the ankle issue are behind him and he has continued to add functional lower body strength through the off-season. But based on my review (Youtube for college, NFL Gamepass for rookie year) of his progression from 2013->2014->2015, the rate of change on his improvement actually peaked already between 2013 and 2014.

He peaked at 19 years old? That's incredibly rare, how lucky are we to have you do this outstanding analysis and determine that a 21 year old is now 2 years past his prime. Riveting stuff.

In comment 12978332 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 12978300 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: I'm sure they did. Have you read anything suggesting they did? The beat writers take has been that he was not much of an option.

In order for them to conclude not to draft him, they would have had to discuss it. Unless you believe the team just didn't have him rated the same way the rest of the world did.

was Eli on his back last year
UConn4523 : 5/31/2016 12:53 pm : link : reply
with arguably the worst OLine of his career? Couldn't be more done with that phantom argument.

First, this wasn't his worst OL of his career....

Eli may not have been sacked much, but the pressures and hits were there.....he avoided many sacks with his quick release of the ball, due to short patterns....

My point was, you have two backups starting in this OL....a concussion to Pugh or injury to Richburg/Flowers and you will have more backups than starters in this OL....Eli is not a miracle worker.....you saw what he did 3 seasons ago, when he had arguably, one of his worst OL's in front of him...

that same scenario could have been last season too. There will be injuries and the team will make it work, and Eli being the cerebral QB he is will find ways to get the ball out quicker. This idea that he's hit immediately as the ball is snapped and that our running game averages 2 YPC is comical.

I am being facetious of course, but that's what I think about when I see those comments.

Within an inch of each other height wise.

Other than that, I find the premise of the article weird unless you just want to indicate that young players of quality usually get better.

Physically, on a micro base these are very different profiles with different physical strengths and weaknesses. Matthews was really a question of ultimate ceiling at LT, not whether he could be an NFL LT. With Flowers there were, and still are, legitimate concerns whether he can play LT to an adequate standard.

No shame here. A great college LT like Andre Smith has been playing RT exclusively. I wonder why?

In comment 12978302 Bill L said:

Quote:

They've been working Eli quicker since McAdoo joined. Maybe it's to get the ball off faster and get play quicker and get a better rhythm, but I don't believe that it was Flowers/Newhouse-specific. They could have had Dallas' Oline and they would still have gone to a quicker passing game.

.

It was cut down on interception specific, when they hired Mac.
So far, it has worked. Get the ball out of Eli's hand faster.