Interesting...
"Flowers, 22, was considered raw and technically flawed coming out of Miami. It showed in his first professional season, and led to a rocky relationship with former line coach Pat Flaherty. The two butted heads on multiple occasions throughout the season, multiple individuals with knowledge of the situation told NJ Advance Media."
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Flowers was better in 2015 than Matthews has ever been actually.
You want a guy who'll take to coaching. But he butted heads with Flaherty. Just the expected result with a strong willed guy, or a sign of someone who won't take guidance well?
Flowers was better in 2015 than Matthews has ever been actually.
By what metric? How did you come up with that determination? Did you watch 16 Falcon games?
I think he has tons of potential and the want/ability to play injured is a bonus this team needs. No reason to be down on the guy, IMO.
I think he has tons of potential and the want/ability to play injured is a bonus this team needs. No reason to be down on the guy, IMO.
The excuse is that A LOT of people are just assuming he will be a great player once fully healed from the high ankle sprain. That is a bad assumption. Why didn't he play well? Oh, he had a high ankle sprain. Yes, that is a fact but also an excuse of why he didn't play well. We don't know if he can play well at LT. That is the point. There is no evidence to suggest that he is a lock at LT for the foreseeable future other than hope. Just because something is a fact doesn't mean it is not an excuse.
No fan saw Richburg's year-2 leap coming either.
Sometimes the guys in the front office do know what they're doing.
I think he has tons of potential and the want/ability to play injured is a bonus this team needs. No reason to be down on the guy, IMO.
And I don't disagree with your post at all. But you are being rational unlike a lot of posters. I would just like to add to your post. You said there is no reason to be down on him. However, there is more of a reason to be down than to be excited about the kid right now. If we are talking about facts, he hasn't proven anything other than being tough. Tough doesn't mean that he can handle the LT position. All we really have to be excited about is potential. IMO, there are way too many players in the NFL that have potential and still do not work out. I hope he does but all I have seen is someone struggle as a rookie for whatever reason.
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This isn't pee wee football. We aren't giving out awards for trying or toughness. All that anybody cares about is results whether he is 100% or not. Toughing it out gets the fans all giddy but the bottom line is that we need positive results. I feel like I am the anit-Flowers poster on here because people keep making excuses for him. I am not. I am just a realist. I hope he becomes a top player at LT but nothing we have seen yet warrants that talk. Nothing we have seen yet warrants us saying we have our LT of the future. He has to prove it and I hope he does.
Your over-the-top harsh criticism of someone trotted out to LT as a rookie, is silly. Yours is the incorrect analysis at this point.
Over the top harsh criticism? How was I over the top and how did I criticize him? He was not good last year. Plain and simple.
No fan saw Richburg's year-2 leap coming either.
Sometimes the guys in the front office do know what they're doing.
He's no different than any other rookie that struggles. You trust in the FO that drafted him and the coaches to get the most out of him. He was/is a young man that was still growing and added to one of the worst lines in football, it was an uphill battle even before the injury.
Googs, you are onna roll lately. Everytime I see an OP I wanna wisecrack on, you've beat me to it.
Hope? For a 21 year old rookie LT who was called a "mess" technique wise by damn near every scout and draft pundits in the galaxy playing on a bum ankle for practically every snap of the NFL season....
All that considered, "hope" for him wouldn't have beeny choice of diction, either.
I'm perfectly happy with him as our LT and the organization has fully committed to him there for a reason. I'll let him completely bust before I start being down on him.
Well the hope was Jake Matthews improved after looking worse in his rookie year than Flowers did in his, and te hope laid off because Jake improved tremendously... And he was drafted three spots higher.. Inhale exhale, Flowers showed enough toughness last year for me to have faith that he will improve his technique this year, oh and btw he's stronger.
He's no different than any other rookie that struggles. You trust in the FO that drafted him and the coaches to get the most out of him. He was/is a young man that was still growing and added to one of the worst lines in football, it was an uphill battle even before the injury.
Like I said, I hope he works out. But honestly he better. We have purposely forced him in at LT when we could have signed some other FAs and moved him to RT. For whatever reason we didn't want to move him to RT. Whether it was the financial aspect with those other players or the continuity along the OL the front office and coaching staff made up their mind. They have to be right about him. Eli's window is closing so we don't really have time to go through growing pains. I am not an anti-Flowers fan. I am just a realistic one. He can make a huge jump up like Richburg did. He can also continue to suck. That is all I am saying. I am not predicting one way or the other like other people are. I would just like to see it before saying he is going to be a stud. Nobody, including Flowers, knows if he can handle the LT position right now so for those saying he can need to relax.
True but on the other hand when a player is so used to doing things one way their whole life it is a tough habit to break. Yes, Flowers had very poor technique with his hand placement which he has worked on. A lot of defenders last year said Flowers packs a punch when he gets his hands on you so we know he was already improving in that area.
Did people suffer from amnesia all of a sudden and forget how David Diehl performed most of the time at LT? He wasn't anywhere near great - he was serviceable, but he got the job done.
Flowers did a fine job - he struggled at times, but he was a rookie. Do you have a long list of rookies that have done well starting at LT from day one? If so, please share because I sure as hell don't have one.
Not trying to say that Flowers was great, or that he didn't have some bad games - but for a rookie who was supposedly working with a bad sprain, I thought he played well.
Did people suffer from amnesia all of a sudden and forget how David Diehl performed most of the time at LT? He wasn't anywhere near great - he was serviceable, but he got the job done.
Flowers did a fine job - he struggled at times, but he was a rookie. Do you have a long list of rookies that have done well starting at LT from day one? If so, please share because I sure as hell don't have one.
Not trying to say that Flowers was great, or that he didn't have some bad games - but for a rookie who was supposedly working with a bad sprain, I thought he played well.
The point isn't that you compare him to other bad rookies and say he is going to be fine. For every bad rookie that worked out I can show you more that didn't. That has no relation to Flowers. Once again, assuming a rookie will play bad and factoring in the bum ankle does not mean that he will be good the following year. Yes, he was bad. People do not realize this because of our offense. Eli and the offense get rid of the ball quickly. Therefore, most fans think Flowers is doing a great job. The same goes for the right side of the line. Oh, Eli wasn't sacked that much. So what? That doesn't mean the line played well.
As a whole the philosophy of this team is changing, and players with the "want to" seems to be a huge focus. Flowers has that in spades after just 1 year and if he takes to coaching and a full offseason of getting his body in shape, I see no reason he won't, at the very least, be an average LT sooner rather than later.
We are going to be a different team this year, I haven't been this excited for our team in easily 3 or 4 years.
Thank you robbieballs. Those type of comments never go well here but its the truth + and he is 1 of my favorite players on the team. Plus u add in how many 1st round OTs end up sucking-there's that element as well
Healthy he can only be evaluated in presseason and the
1st 2 plays of the regular season. (He injured ankle on 2nd play.)
Imo he looked tremendous run blocking b4 the injury and we liked a play where flowers pulled outside , swung the gate + lead the play up field. Thats a block u only ask really special OTs to make and we used it w him
All that said, if i was in charge he'd be at
RT. Hes the perfect RT
As for the article,clashing with Flaherty should be cause for concern.
He is a Huge key right now one would expect that he learned much more this off season and produces otherwise we are in deep shit . He was somewhat of a gamble . There was one report that surfaced on Bleacher report on each teams worst
player and he was this writers selection now of course it's not my opinion but the fact that who ever wrote it selected him .
I was thinking the same. Feels like Flaherty was a Coughlin guy, one McAdoo quickly replaced when he took over
besides the idiocy of the statement from a timing/contract/salary cap perspective. Flowers was not good at LT. For a variety of reasons.
Some people questioned if it was the position best suited for him from the beginning.
Everyone loves the toughness and the nastiness, the great lines of the past decade has that with guys like Seubert and Snee, even Diehl had some of that.
but it does not in any way make you technically sound.
Can he learn to be? Maybe, but in no way is it a given that Flowers will a) improve or b) improve enough to be considered a "good" tackle.
I think people were just so done with Beatty's finesse game and injury history (which is overstated) they view Flowers as the anti-Beatty.
I hope he becomes the next Joe Thomas, but nothing is guaranteed.
If Ranaan is a hotshot, why did he need multiple sources to tell him what was going on?
I'm not surprised that Flaherty is out, if that was going on along with his inability to develop mid-round talent.
A big improvement in the O-line may occur just because Flaherty was replaced.
I am definitely hopeful he'll improve, and I think he has the right attitude, but I'm not someone that thinks just because his ankle is healthy he'll make some huge leap forward without cleaning up the technique.
Also, the kid had a few years at Miami, to expect that he'll just clean up his technique due to moving to the NFL is foolish. Miami isn't what it used to be, but I'm guessing their Oline coach isn't some hack.
Did he play lights out? No.....where all the pressures due to the ankle, being a rookie, or lack of talent....this season will answer that question...
This OL can go south in a heartbeat, because there is no depth at all....and all the resources spent on the defense will mean nothing if Eli is on his back....
No, we've been told on here that Eli's agility in the pocket reduced a HUGE amounts of probable sacks..
Ranaan is a hack. It was good to see Jerry bark at him during the Coughlin departure press conference.
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'Flowers was really bad' from last year's performance?
Did people suffer from amnesia all of a sudden and forget how David Diehl performed most of the time at LT? He wasn't anywhere near great - he was serviceable, but he got the job done.
Flowers did a fine job - he struggled at times, but he was a rookie. Do you have a long list of rookies that have done well starting at LT from day one? If so, please share because I sure as hell don't have one.
Not trying to say that Flowers was great, or that he didn't have some bad games - but for a rookie who was supposedly working with a bad sprain, I thought he played well.
The point isn't that you compare him to other bad rookies and say he is going to be fine. For every bad rookie that worked out I can show you more that didn't. That has no relation to Flowers. Once again, assuming a rookie will play bad and factoring in the bum ankle does not mean that he will be good the following year. Yes, he was bad. People do not realize this because of our offense. Eli and the offense get rid of the ball quickly. Therefore, most fans think Flowers is doing a great job. The same goes for the right side of the line. Oh, Eli wasn't sacked that much. So what? That doesn't mean the line played well.
That's nonsense - a rookie gets compared to other rookies. Otherwise, there's an implication that experience/development plays no part in this. The best comparisons would be against the rookie seasons of current, established successful OLTs.
As for the quick drops - there were plenty of times that Eli held the ball and nobody got open, and he managed to stay relatively clean. Yes, the quick strike offense makes it easier for the OL to hold since there's so little time involved, but they still have to block plenty.
Thank you robbieballs. Those type of comments never go well here but its the truth + and he is 1 of my favorite players on the team. Plus u add in how many 1st round OTs end up sucking-there's that element as well
They never go well here when you post them, because you're utterly and entirely full of shit, Thomas.
Yeah, really. Would he prefer a guy that is content to say he can't go all season or one that tries to tough it out. It's on the coach if they leave him in if he isn't doing what he should or is too hurt to play.
Nice job Stan. I tend to agree with thought process...
We get it, depth is an issue - In todays NFL every team is lacking OL depth. The Cowboys re-signed C. Brown as a backup - that speaks volumes. Pickings are slim
He's no different than any other rookie that struggles. You trust in the FO that drafted him and the coaches to get the most out of him. He was/is a young man that was still growing and added to one of the worst lines in football, it was an uphill battle even before the injury.
Yeah, i give him a pass on his performance because he was a rookie and because of the injury.
Kudos for toughing it out while injured.
If he dips this year, we will be drafting OT in round 1-2 i suppose.
Flowers had his ups and downs as you'd expect but it's reasonable to assume he'd build upon his rookie campaign.
The thought was that he just had technique issues. But if you go back to his college tape it looks like he lacked lower body strength and got away with it by using his helmet to duck into blocks and just fighting to stay in plays that he lost. I have rarely see him use a good punch to slow a rusher down or knock him back and most of his best blocks are cut blocks (which he cant do any more). He also seems to get some highlight reel blocks out in space when he gets momentum, but he often does not find the right defender to block.
Watching his 2015 rookie tape, i see very little improvement in his functional strength and his hand placement/punch. He stopped ducking his helmet into contact, which actually worked very well for him in college. Ereck is a very good cut blocker, not going to help him that he cannot rely on this technique going forward.
The hope for Flowers is the ankle issue are behind him and he has continued to add functional lower body strength through the off-season. But based on my review (Youtube for college, NFL Gamepass for rookie year) of his progression from 2013->2014->2015, the rate of change on his improvement actually peaked already between 2013 and 2014.
Functional lower body strength problems up yer arse...
One full year of experience starting at left tackle,
Great work ethic,
Gym Rat - Top in combine Bench Press of all players (2015 and 2016)
Plays with mean streak thru the whistle,
Loves football,
high pain threshold and hates to leave the field, toughing out injuries
missed only one game last year.
No off field issues.
This is a tough player committed to improvement. I trust the coaches know what they are doing and see a left tackle that will only improve. One year and writing this guy off is crazy.
The average NFL rookie doesn't do anything significant to help his team. Roughly two-thirds of all drafted players will be buried on benches, relegated to practice squads or outright released.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2455602-great-draft-class-doesnt-matter-rookies-rarely-have-an-immediate-impact - ( New Window )
The thought was that he just had technique issues. But if you go back to his college tape it looks like he lacked lower body strength and got away with it by using his helmet to duck into blocks and just fighting to stay in plays that he lost. I have rarely see him use a good punch to slow a rusher down or knock him back and most of his best blocks are cut blocks (which he cant do any more). He also seems to get some highlight reel blocks out in space when he gets momentum, but he often does not find the right defender to block.
Watching his 2015 rookie tape, i see very little improvement in his functional strength and his hand placement/punch. He stopped ducking his helmet into contact, which actually worked very well for him in college. Ereck is a very good cut blocker, not going to help him that he cannot rely on this technique going forward.
The hope for Flowers is the ankle issue are behind him and he has continued to add functional lower body strength through the off-season. But based on my review (Youtube for college, NFL Gamepass for rookie year) of his progression from 2013->2014->2015, the rate of change on his improvement actually peaked already between 2013 and 2014.
Your probably right. How he got drafted at all (Rd 1 no less) is still a mystery.
McAdoo will likely cut his ass by August.
JPP was the best in the world at "pressuring" the QB last season, and the Giants defense was the worst in the world.
I'm tired of stats like this.
Give me points and TDs all day over how many "pressures" our LT allowed.
Give me sacks and very few points allowed over "pressures" any day.
I wasnt worried about Flowers one bit. He did play with an injury for some time last season, and overall, he was a bad ass, huge dude, who did the job.
I expect him to be better in 2016, but I was not concerned for a minute.
The staff be a lot better at evaluating these things than I, so I guess I should have trust in that they know what they're doing, because I certainly would have handled things differently. I would not have been so quick to anoint Flowers as the LT of the future and would have been deterred from bringing in another LT to compete for the position. I would have thought long and hard about drafting Tunsil, and that's if I hadn't already signed somebody in FA.
There is good reason to believe he may improve. But I am a bit puzzled as to why/how anyone can be so certain of it.
I think its fair to assume he will get better, how much is anyone's guess.
The thought was that he just had technique issues. But if you go back to his college tape it looks like he lacked lower body strength and got away with it by using his helmet to duck into blocks and just fighting to stay in plays that he lost. I have rarely see him use a good punch to slow a rusher down or knock him back and most of his best blocks are cut blocks (which he cant do any more). He also seems to get some highlight reel blocks out in space when he gets momentum, but he often does not find the right defender to block.
Watching his 2015 rookie tape, i see very little improvement in his functional strength and his hand placement/punch. He stopped ducking his helmet into contact, which actually worked very well for him in college. Ereck is a very good cut blocker, not going to help him that he cannot rely on this technique going forward.
The hope for Flowers is the ankle issue are behind him and he has continued to add functional lower body strength through the off-season. But based on my review (Youtube for college, NFL Gamepass for rookie year) of his progression from 2013->2014->2015, the rate of change on his improvement actually peaked already between 2013 and 2014.
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I'm sure they did.
Have you read anything suggesting they did? The beat writers take has been that he was not much of an option.
In order for them to conclude not to draft him, they would have had to discuss it. Unless you believe the team just didn't have him rated the same way the rest of the world did.
UConn4523 : 5/31/2016 12:53 pm : link : reply
with arguably the worst OLine of his career? Couldn't be more done with that phantom argument.
First, this wasn't his worst OL of his career....
Eli may not have been sacked much, but the pressures and hits were there.....he avoided many sacks with his quick release of the ball, due to short patterns....
My point was, you have two backups starting in this OL....a concussion to Pugh or injury to Richburg/Flowers and you will have more backups than starters in this OL....Eli is not a miracle worker.....you saw what he did 3 seasons ago, when he had arguably, one of his worst OL's in front of him...
I am being facetious of course, but that's what I think about when I see those comments.
Other than that, I find the premise of the article weird unless you just want to indicate that young players of quality usually get better.
Physically, on a micro base these are very different profiles with different physical strengths and weaknesses. Matthews was really a question of ultimate ceiling at LT, not whether he could be an NFL LT. With Flowers there were, and still are, legitimate concerns whether he can play LT to an adequate standard.
No shame here. A great college LT like Andre Smith has been playing RT exclusively. I wonder why?
It was cut down on interception specific, when they hired Mac.
So far, it has worked. Get the ball out of Eli's hand faster.