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5. Giants making Janoris Jenkins one of the best-paid CBs (five years, $62.5 million, $29 million guaranteed) Janoris Jenkins is not a bad cornerback, and 2015 was his best season to date, but the Giants made him one of the best-paid corners in the game, and he just isn’t anywhere near that standard. Jenkins is a gambler who can make a lot of big plays, but he has also surrendered 22 career touchdowns and over 700 receiving yards every season of his career. In two of his four seasons, he has been beaten for a passer rating of more than 110.0, and has never held opposing receivers to a completion percentage of under 61.7 percent, a mark 54 cornerbacks bettered this year alone. Even if you work on the basis that the 2015 version of Jenkins is the player you will be getting going forward, that player had the 32nd-highest coverage grade among corners this past season, and was second-best on his own team, trailing Trumaine Johnson. He’s probably an upgrade for that New York secondary, but he came at an astronomical cost that he likely won’t come close to justifying. |
I think Jenkins will thrive in a Corey Webster type role. He's a very good pure cover guy IMO. He's good at the LOS & uses good arm length to press WRs. Just look at DRC. He had the best year of his career last year.
I think the same about Damon Harrison. Everybody mentions that he can't rush the passer. Ummm that's because he wasn't asked too. His job was to take on multiple OL to create space for their LBs. Now he's going to go 1 on 1 with an OG or Center. He's going to destroy them. It would not surprise me at all to see Snacks have 5 or more sacks this year.
I'm trying not to be bias, but I think Vernon really benefits from playing for the Giants. The Dolphins are a complete mess & have not been good at developing talent. They've had so many players leave at become much better players. Guys like Brandon Marshall, Sean Smith, Vontae Davis. Vernon absolutely destroyed Tyron Smith. He made him look like a late round pick & not a top 3 LT. I have to put that on coaches that games like that didn't happen more often. From top to bottom the Fins are a dysfunctional organization. It shows when you see that Vernon had 4 sacks negated by penalties from Suh & Reshad Jones.
Josh Norman is not a bad cornerback, and 2015 was his best season to date, but the Redskins made him one of the best-paid corners in the game, and he just isn’t anywhere near that standard. Norman is a gambler who can make a lot of big plays, but he has also surrendered 22 career touchdowns and over 700 receiving yards every season of his career. In his 4 seasons, he's missed 11 games.
Even if you work on the basis that the 2015 version of Norman is the player you will be getting going forward, that player had the 33nd-highest coverage grade among corners this past season, and was second-best on his own team, trailing Bene Benwikere. He’s probably an upgrade for that Washington secondary, but he came at an astronomical cost that he likely won’t come close to justifying.
Fixed.
CBs are going to give up yards and TDs and there are lots of reasons for it but to suggest jenkins isn't a top CB.....stuff ur stats up ur ass
This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo
I don't know if I can come up with 20 players I'd take over Eli. Let alone 101. PFF is turning into ESPN. They are saying outrageous shit to get clicks/views.
PFF makes ESPN look like Masterpiece Theater.
I think Dan nailed the biggest possible error in judging the expense of the signing vs the value of the player. Contracts NFL style are not actually the face total value of the contract. Almost never are.
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Came out with a top 101 player list & Eli wasn't on it I can't take anything they say serious.
I don't know if I can come up with 20 players I'd take over Eli. Let alone 101. PFF is turning into ESPN. They are saying outrageous shit to get clicks/views.
PFF makes ESPN look like Masterpiece Theater.
Good one Stan
They had to, HAD TO, get real pass rush help, so they were the highest bidder for Olivier Vernon, a guy who has never had a double digit sack season.
IF the Giants drafted better, or if they could keep players healthy, Amukamara's replacement would have been on the rester already, but he's not, so they had to aggressively address the problem, as they did with Vernon. One head already rolled, and more will follow if things go on like they have for the past 4 years.
They had to do something.
Still think they should have drafted Tunsil instead of Apple, but thats a moot point.
He's essentially on a 3 year 29M contract.
Freaking about it the total value of his deal would be like freaking out when Shawn Andrews signed that 6 year deal and then calling him the highest paid right tackle in the NFlL.
I think Jenkins will thrive in a Corey Webster type role. He's a very good pure cover guy IMO. He's good at the LOS & uses good arm length to press WRs. Just look at DRC. He had the best year of his career last year.
I think the same about Damon Harrison. Everybody mentions that he can't rush the passer. Ummm that's because he wasn't asked too. His job was to take on multiple OL to create space for their LBs. Now he's going to go 1 on 1 with an OG or Center. He's going to destroy them. It would not surprise me at all to see Snacks have 5 or more sacks this year.
I'm trying not to be bias, but I think Vernon really benefits from playing for the Giants. The Dolphins are a complete mess & have not been good at developing talent. They've had so many players leave at become much better players. Guys like Brandon Marshall, Sean Smith, Vontae Davis. Vernon absolutely destroyed Tyron Smith. He made him look like a late round pick & not a top 3 LT. I have to put that on coaches that games like that didn't happen more often. From top to bottom the Fins are a dysfunctional organization. It shows when you see that Vernon had 4 sacks negated by penalties from Suh & Reshad Jones.
Great analysis. In any event, let’s play a few games first before we pass judgment on Jenkins or any other FA. I admit I probably wouldn’t have signed all three, but we did. So let’s see how they perform. From what I’ve read, he’s done well in OTAs.
This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo
This is an incredibly dumb statement. Dollars and cap room are finite; it's essentially zero sum - every dollar spent on one player is a dollar that can't be spent on another.
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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it..
This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo
Thank you Doc. I don't know what the fixation is on getting "value". It costs money to sign good players; it's as simple as that.
You don't know what the fixation is? The salary cap. That's the fixation. I'm not opposed to the Jenkins signing, but it's a very real concern to sign someone at top tier money that may not provide top tier production.
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is supply and demand. How many top, healthy CB's come available via FA in their prime age? After he hits 30 he can be cut and the Giants will save over $8MM on the cap if his play no longer merits his contract.
I think Dan nailed the biggest possible error in judging the expense of the signing vs the value of the player. Contracts NFL style are not actually the face total value of the contract. Almost never are.
The savings are not the question; the dead money is. The savings are fun for us to look at, but it's the dead money that cramps roster depth.
I would have signed Bruce Irvin over Jenkins. BAnd we still have more to sign another good player.
The Giants still are among the top teams in the langue in terms of cap space. They spent a lot but didn't hamstring themselves or mortgage their future. As long as Jenkins plays well and, along with DRC and Apple, give NY a solid trio of CBs I don't care what he was paid or who thinks it was too much. If the D jumps from 32nd to 12th and the secondary no longer plays like a MAC conference team will anyone be crying about contract numbers then?
This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo
This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo
BINGO!! Why the obsession over freaking money? They had it to spend! Good lord. Football never used to be this way but because of dumbass websites like PFF, the money makes it a bad signing?
Give me a break.
+1
As long as he performs better than Prince, I really don't care.
We severely overpaid for this guy. He isn't an impact player. He's a good player making $41 million in the next 3 years. It's a bad deal.
With Vernon we may have w rising player and an impact guy. This one is easier to understand. The cash on Jenkins could have been spread around to get at least 2 comparable/better players.
I would have signed Bruce Irvin over Jenkins. BAnd we still have more to sign another good player.
What if Irvin didn't want to come here? Then what? Didn't we sign a pass rusher anyway, I think we did right? Maybe I'm wrong though.
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$41 million in first 3 years for Jenkins? Team would have been better if we used the cash for front 7 pass rush and speed.
I would have signed Bruce Irvin over Jenkins. BAnd we still have more to sign another good player.
What if Irvin didn't want to come here? Then what? Didn't we sign a pass rusher anyway, I think we did right? Maybe I'm wrong though.
One of my favorites is when a poster says we should have signed "x" instead. Like it is so easy. Not every free agent wants to sign with the Giants.
This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo
I feel like a broken record with this but it just falls on deaf ears. Seemingly everyone obsesses over contracts. And look I get it the cap or revenue sharing thing is a big factor -- salaries and contracts play a big supporting role in the pro sports landscape but it shouldn't be the most discussed narrative among media and fans. When a good young player hits the FA market he's going to get fucking paid. They ALL do. Sometimes the contracts work out. Sometimes they don't. It's all a gamble. Sitting back and not signing FAs is a gamble too. If the Giants keep prince for pennies and he misses 7 games next season fans would want Reese drawn and quartered.
All these FAs the Giants signed have to do is stay on the football field and the Giants will take that and run. Jenkins should hopefully be well insulated in this D. He has potential here.
If he can stay healthy all year and defend as well as Prince (when he was healthy) I think it's worth it. He's only 27.
KWALL: What other CBs were available that were solid players and available when the Giants signed Jenkins? It's like when we signed Beatty to his "big" contract. The Giants were sort of over a barrel at that time. Our defense sucked last year and if it took a lot of coin to fix it and they end up decent, it was worth it.
Second: For the Giants, the question was "Is he an upgrade?" Even this article says yes, he was an upgrade. They had a bunch of cap space and it wouldn't have done them much good to say "Yeah, well, Jenkins is an upgrade, but not enough of an upgrade to spend that money on. So let's let Prince walk and just go through 2016 with a glaring hole at one CB spot, but lots of cap space."
Third: A team can only choose among the available players, and the players get to choose, too. The Giants could have passed on Jenkins in free agency and gambled that they'd get a top CB prospect in the draft. That would have been foolish. As it happens, they did get a top CB prospect in the draft. But there was no way to be sure of that during free agency.
Finally: Jenkins' contract is steep, but not insane. His cap # for 2016 is only $8M, and his peak cap # over the deal is 2017, at $15M. After that his cap hit declines. As noted above, cap inflation means that his deal will look pretty reasonable by 2018.
Also, if you look at the actual numbers, Jenkins deal has $28.8 million guaranteed, so the Giants wouldn't want to part with him before 2018 -- if they did, they'd take $20M+ hit in dead money for 2016 and/or 2017. After that, if they part ways, the dead cap hit would be painful, but less so over time: $6M in 2018, $4M in 2019, $2M in 2020.
It's not a bad contract. IT's a gamble, and it may not pay off, but it's not a bad gamble.
Thoughts?
Sounds like the corners they had last year minus the big plays. Seems like an upgrade to me.
If Jenkins is a starter and plays well for them, there is no way this is among the worst contracts. Maybe they did over pay, but the worst contracts are the ones where a team pays starter money to bad players. I don't see that as the case here -they should have at least a good player at a premium position for several years. They paid a premium price for a young quality starting cornerback, because that's the going rate. I'll take that over sunken money on a bad player any day.
but the Giants really needed to purchase a decent CB.
The question I have of PFF is why is Jenkins any worse of a move than the Vernon or Harrison contracts? I think all three contracts were pretty much equally comparable. They were three signings that were all pricey relative to past performance - but the result was securing three healthy, hardworking, productive players in significant areas of need, on a unit that was a no-show last year.
The Giants were also competing with 10 other teams with record cap dollars for those signings. Each of the players signed were in the top 10 of the available talent - and arguably the top two available at their respective positions.
If you look at the available talent and the competing dollars -- the Giants had to spend to land them -- and received comparative max-available benefit with each of the three signings.
So while the dollars seem disproportionate - in light of the pool of available dollars, the pool of available talent, and the size of available benefits - I don't think PFF evaluation is either accurate or correctly analyzed -- their analysis fails on two levels:
1) singling out the Janoris Jenkis signing as worse than the signing of Olivier Vernon and Snacks Harrison, and
2) failing to analyze the marketplace that led to the signings
Lastly, there is no doubt that the Jenkins signing improves the Giants - and saying that is if it was kind of no weight part of the evaluation is somewhat disingenuous. I think all of you who are bemoaning the long range effect on the Giants cap are failing to grasp the core concept here. Frugally spend now on maudlin talent and wade through another few years of awful football, or spend part of your huge war chest on the wisest available talent and become competitive now.
Given the choice in advance - I'd chose what the Giants did.
Specifically in this case, I don't think paying big money to Vernon and Jenkins was a mistake because their contracts are set up favorably. A lot of the money is upfront, and the impact on the salary cap is that the team is on the hook with their salaries for the first 2 seasons - after that there's room to terminate those contracts without doing substantial damage to the management of the cap (hopefully that's not a bridge that will need to be crossed).
We're drafting better (at least it appears so) and perhaps being blessed with health, we can re-sign more of our own and spend less dollars on replacements/upgrades. We shall see..
They signed Jenkins immediately. He was one of the top targets. I see it as a mistake and would have signed 2 guys for that price. Irvin. Barron. TE Green. WR Benjamin. CB Hayward. S McLeod. There were a lot of guys available for less than half the price. We could have added 2.
The article points out some of the reasons ithis deal doesn't seem like a good value for the Giants. It didnt even touch on his tackling problems. The guy misses a lot of tackles.
He's on the team now. I would have preferred a different strategy but I hope this plan works
Two CERTAINTIES Tommy (Unless the NFL hits bottom):
1-The Cap will keep going up
2-The contract will be considered reasonable in a few years
Pay attention(as I do) to the analyses here and elsewhere as they pertain to "real" money and guarantees..That's what people need to keep their eye on and don't..In Baseball, if you see $150 million contract, that's what they'll get. There are no secrets or finite details to be aware of, imv..Not in the NFL
personally - I would rather have a full-time CB on the team rather than another Prince -
personally - I would rather have a full-time CB on the team rather than another Prince -
and by the way - if the Giants wanted Prince back - he would have been cheaper than Casey Heyward
Wasingron overpaid for their CB. Giants overpaid too.
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than we did for Vernon. Jenkins is being paid like a top 3 corner and he is not that. I am by no means saying he is not a good player, hes just not worth that much. Hopefully the cap keeps going up and the contract is considered reasonable in a few years
Two CERTAINTIES Tommy (Unless the NFL hits bottom):
1-The Cap will keep going up
2-The contract will be considered reasonable in a few years
Pay attention(as I do) to the analyses here and elsewhere as they pertain to "real" money and guarantees..That's what people need to keep their eye on and don't..In Baseball, if you see $150 million contract, that's what they'll get. There are no secrets or finite details to be aware of, imv..Not in the NFL
#2 would only be true if Jenkins plays well. PFF's contention and I'm not defending them wasn't the overpay, as much as it is that Jenkins just isn't good.
I agree with most of the people saying so what you overpaid, it's what you do in FA. IF..big IF Jenkins plays well. If he doesn't you're stuck with a bad player making a ton of money and you still need to staff the position - or just have an obvious weak link on D. Nothing stands out worse than a CB who is beatable.
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In comment 12982301 TommyWiseau said:
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than we did for Vernon. Jenkins is being paid like a top 3 corner and he is not that. I am by no means saying he is not a good player, hes just not worth that much. Hopefully the cap keeps going up and the contract is considered reasonable in a few years
Two CERTAINTIES Tommy (Unless the NFL hits bottom):
1-The Cap will keep going up
2-The contract will be considered reasonable in a few years
Pay attention(as I do) to the analyses here and elsewhere as they pertain to "real" money and guarantees..That's what people need to keep their eye on and don't..In Baseball, if you see $150 million contract, that's what they'll get. There are no secrets or finite details to be aware of, imv..Not in the NFL
#2 would only be true if Jenkins plays well. PFF's contention and I'm not defending them wasn't the overpay, as much as it is that Jenkins just isn't good.
I agree with most of the people saying so what you overpaid, it's what you do in FA. IF..big IF Jenkins plays well. If he doesn't you're stuck with a bad player making a ton of money and you still need to staff the position - or just have an obvious weak link on D. Nothing stands out worse than a CB who is beatable.
They did draft a possible hedge in Apple if Jenkins bombs..Most teams are NOT deep in the Secondary, so the best hedge is to draft a potential starter and hope, as most teams do, that you can find a diamond in UDFA
I just think more rides on how well Jenkins plays than how much they paid for him, though the two are obviously somewhat related. Mainly because of the obvious, Jenkins is being paid like a top CB. He needs to play like one and all then all this overpay talk seems silly. If he bombs out there then we can revisit this "worst signing" crap.
Sparks, Sehorn & whomever were pretty damn good.
Wasingron overpaid for their CB. Giants overpaid too.
K -- there's no way the Giants were going with Prince -- and Jenkins is a much better player than Prince and he stays on the field -- Irvin would be a good pick up but the Giants game is predicated on beefing up the front and the rear so you have to buy what your game preference is