PFF: Signing JackRabbit One of Ten Worst Moves of OffSeason

overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it..

This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

but lets see.

In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said:

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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

It's not stupid. You win by allocating your cap space well. Overpaying guys by definition is not allocating your cap space well.

and the year after. Rising caps means inflation in contracts.

In comment 12981902 David in LA said:

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and the year after. Rising caps means inflation in contracts.

Of course..

where you have to target top tier free agents, you are going to have to overpay.

Drafting better would tend to alleviate that need.

In comment 12981900 chris r said:

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In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo It's not stupid. You win by allocating your cap space well. Overpaying guys by definition is not allocating your cap space well.

That's a blanket statement that isn't entirely true. You overpay more at premium positions and that's what we did. I'd rather overpay for a CB than a Guard. You will never not overpay for a good player so this obsession with the overpaid label is hilarious.

In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said:

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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

Agree completely. What were we supposed to do, bring in scrappy players because they were cheaper? That will solve nothing.

In comment 12981907 MOOPS said:

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where you have to target top tier free agents, you are going to have to overpay. Drafting better would tend to alleviate that need.

And having good fortune (health-wise) with the good drafting would be terrific

Damn auto correct.

that Spagnuolo reviewed the metrics involved with his play and approved of the signing. But, Spagnuolo doesn't do any such analysis, trusting to "go with his gut," as he repeatedly mentioned in '15.

I liked the signing. I liked him coming out of college. Prince was never a favorite of mind. Jenkins possesses an attitude. He is super confident, the type of guy who can give up a six, not tank, then make a game-saving play for his team. So it is an upgrade as far as I am concerned. We will find out soon enough about Janoris, beginning in Week 1 in Big D. Word of caution about his play: the talent on the Rams' D was better than the Giants. The Giants did upgrade substantially. They better have. They spent enough money. However, some lost soul will mention that he is finally on a good unit. No, that remains to be seen.

In comment 12981907 MOOPS said:

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where you have to target top tier free agents, you are going to have to overpay. Drafting better would tend to alleviate that need.

That's somewhat a false logic because if you draft great guys you have to pay upscale for them too after 4-6 years. There's virtually zero loyalty and zero home team discount unless you extend a guy in the middle somewhere of his rookie contract - which has it's own risks notably injuries causing huge non returns on signing bonus payouts.

I can imagine BBI calling for Reese's job... But when he takes a INT to the house against Romo week 1 then PFF will start sucking Reese's cock.

In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said:

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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

The "overpaid" criticism is so easy, isn't it. The point is, we have a small window, and they were the available guys. That's the market.

The NYG are betting on what's ahead of the player. PFF mentioned it in the quoted write up, 2015 was his best season. Maybe moving to the big stage of NY in the NFC East instead of obscurity (and lock 3rd or 4th place finishes) in St. Louis in the NFC West will help elevate his game even more? If the NYG didn't think he was an ascending player, they wouldn't have targeted him. Yes, there is an overpay aspect, but there always is in Free Agency, especially at a premium position like CB.

In comment 12981900 chris r said:

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In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo It's not stupid. You win by allocating your cap space well. Overpaying guys by definition is not allocating your cap space well.

Right

Came out with a top 101 player list & Eli wasn't on it I can't take anything they say serious.

I don't know if I can come up with 20 players I'd take over Eli. Let alone 101. PFF is turning into ESPN. They are saying outrageous shit to get clicks/views.

Then he was in St. Louis. Gregg Williams defense isn't really beneficial to CBs. He wants them to attack the ball & leaves them on an Island. It leads to INTs, but it also leads to TDs given up. It's not like Jenkins had good Safeties behind him as we all remember from Odell absolutely destroying them on a deep pass.

I think Jenkins will thrive in a Corey Webster type role. He's a very good pure cover guy IMO. He's good at the LOS & uses good arm length to press WRs. Just look at DRC. He had the best year of his career last year.

I think the same about Damon Harrison. Everybody mentions that he can't rush the passer. Ummm that's because he wasn't asked too. His job was to take on multiple OL to create space for their LBs. Now he's going to go 1 on 1 with an OG or Center. He's going to destroy them. It would not surprise me at all to see Snacks have 5 or more sacks this year.

I'm trying not to be bias, but I think Vernon really benefits from playing for the Giants. The Dolphins are a complete mess & have not been good at developing talent. They've had so many players leave at become much better players. Guys like Brandon Marshall, Sean Smith, Vontae Davis. Vernon absolutely destroyed Tyron Smith. He made him look like a late round pick & not a top 3 LT. I have to put that on coaches that games like that didn't happen more often. From top to bottom the Fins are a dysfunctional organization. It shows when you see that Vernon had 4 sacks negated by penalties from Suh & Reshad Jones.

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5. Redskins making Josh Norman the best-paid CB (five years, $75 million, $50 million guaranteed) Josh Norman is not a bad cornerback, and 2015 was his best season to date, but the Redskins made him one of the best-paid corners in the game, and he just isn’t anywhere near that standard. Norman is a gambler who can make a lot of big plays, but he has also surrendered 22 career touchdowns and over 700 receiving yards every season of his career. In his 4 seasons, he's missed 11 games. Even if you work on the basis that the 2015 version of Norman is the player you will be getting going forward, that player had the 33nd-highest coverage grade among corners this past season, and was second-best on his own team, trailing Bene Benwikere. He’s probably an upgrade for that Washington secondary, but he came at an astronomical cost that he likely won’t come close to justifying.

Fixed.

janoris jenkins is a stud football player. an impact player. anyone with half a brain can see that. he is all over the football a lot like asante samuel used to be. and he's consistent about it.

CBs are going to give up yards and TDs and there are lots of reasons for it but to suggest jenkins isn't a top CB.....stuff ur stats up ur ass

Isn't hurt every other series so that imho is a major upgrade right there

In baseball there is a lot of one on one match ups so stats are important. Football is so much more of a team game.

is supply and demand. How many top, healthy CB's come available via FA in their prime age? After he hits 30 he can be cut and the Giants will save over $8MM on the cap if his play no longer merits his contract.

In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said:

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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

Thank you Doc. I don't know what the fixation is on getting "value". It costs money to sign good players; it's as simple as that.

In comment 12981944 Big Rick in FL said:

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Came out with a top 101 player list & Eli wasn't on it I can't take anything they say serious. I don't know if I can come up with 20 players I'd take over Eli. Let alone 101. PFF is turning into ESPN. They are saying outrageous shit to get clicks/views.

PFF makes ESPN look like Masterpiece Theater.

In comment 12981976 Dan in the Springs said:

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is supply and demand. How many top, healthy CB's come available via FA in their prime age? After he hits 30 he can be cut and the Giants will save over $8MM on the cap if his play no longer merits his contract.

I think Dan nailed the biggest possible error in judging the expense of the signing vs the value of the player. Contracts NFL style are not actually the face total value of the contract. Almost never are.

In comment 12981983 Stan in LA said:

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In comment 12981944 Big Rick in FL said: Quote: Came out with a top 101 player list & Eli wasn't on it I can't take anything they say serious. I don't know if I can come up with 20 players I'd take over Eli. Let alone 101. PFF is turning into ESPN. They are saying outrageous shit to get clicks/views. PFF makes ESPN look like Masterpiece Theater.

Good one Stan

have failed to draft and develop enough players to fill many gaping holes that led to 3 consecutive losing seasons and 4 seasons out of the playoffs. Coughlin was forced to leave, and Rees will be next if this thing doesnt get turned around quickly.
They had to, HAD TO, get real pass rush help, so they were the highest bidder for Olivier Vernon, a guy who has never had a double digit sack season.
IF the Giants drafted better, or if they could keep players healthy, Amukamara's replacement would have been on the rester already, but he's not, so they had to aggressively address the problem, as they did with Vernon. One head already rolled, and more will follow if things go on like they have for the past 4 years.
They had to do something.
Still think they should have drafted Tunsil instead of Apple, but thats a moot point.

He's earning right at the top of the 2nd tier CBs.

He's essentially on a 3 year 29M contract.

Freaking about it the total value of his deal would be like freaking out when Shawn Andrews signed that 6 year deal and then calling him the highest paid right tackle in the NFlL.

In comment 12981951 Big Rick in FL said:

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Then he was in St. Louis. Gregg Williams defense isn't really beneficial to CBs. He wants them to attack the ball & leaves them on an Island. It leads to INTs, but it also leads to TDs given up. It's not like Jenkins had good Safeties behind him as we all remember from Odell absolutely destroying them on a deep pass. I think Jenkins will thrive in a Corey Webster type role. He's a very good pure cover guy IMO. He's good at the LOS & uses good arm length to press WRs. Just look at DRC. He had the best year of his career last year. I think the same about Damon Harrison. Everybody mentions that he can't rush the passer. Ummm that's because he wasn't asked too. His job was to take on multiple OL to create space for their LBs. Now he's going to go 1 on 1 with an OG or Center. He's going to destroy them. It would not surprise me at all to see Snacks have 5 or more sacks this year. I'm trying not to be bias, but I think Vernon really benefits from playing for the Giants. The Dolphins are a complete mess & have not been good at developing talent. They've had so many players leave at become much better players. Guys like Brandon Marshall, Sean Smith, Vontae Davis. Vernon absolutely destroyed Tyron Smith. He made him look like a late round pick & not a top 3 LT. I have to put that on coaches that games like that didn't happen more often. From top to bottom the Fins are a dysfunctional organization. It shows when you see that Vernon had 4 sacks negated by penalties from Suh & Reshad Jones.

Great analysis. In any event, let’s play a few games first before we pass judgment on Jenkins or any other FA. I admit I probably wouldn’t have signed all three, but we did. So let’s see how they perform. From what I’ve read, he’s done well in OTAs.

on early reports, he's looked like the real deal in OTAs.

In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said:

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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

This is an incredibly dumb statement. Dollars and cap room are finite; it's essentially zero sum - every dollar spent on one player is a dollar that can't be spent on another.

In comment 12981980 HomerJones45 said:

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In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo Thank you Doc. I don't know what the fixation is on getting "value". It costs money to sign good players; it's as simple as that.

You don't know what the fixation is? The salary cap. That's the fixation. I'm not opposed to the Jenkins signing, but it's a very real concern to sign someone at top tier money that may not provide top tier production.

In comment 12981986 BlueLou said:

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In comment 12981976 Dan in the Springs said: Quote: is supply and demand. How many top, healthy CB's come available via FA in their prime age? After he hits 30 he can be cut and the Giants will save over $8MM on the cap if his play no longer merits his contract. I think Dan nailed the biggest possible error in judging the expense of the signing vs the value of the player. Contracts NFL style are not actually the face total value of the contract. Almost never are.

The savings are not the question; the dead money is. The savings are fun for us to look at, but it's the dead money that cramps roster depth.

$41 million in first 3 years for Jenkins? Team would have been better if we used the cash for front 7 pass rush and speed.

I would have signed Bruce Irvin over Jenkins. BAnd we still have more to sign another good player.

Each year the salary cap grows and a handful of teams have a small fortune to spend. Therefore anyone in/around the top 10 at their position is going to get paid well and set the bar for the following season. At which point thos contracts will be surpassed and the newly minted FA pickups will be called "overpaid".

The Giants still are among the top teams in the langue in terms of cap space. They spent a lot but didn't hamstring themselves or mortgage their future. As long as Jenkins plays well and, along with DRC and Apple, give NY a solid trio of CBs I don't care what he was paid or who thinks it was too much. If the D jumps from 32nd to 12th and the secondary no longer plays like a MAC conference team will anyone be crying about contract numbers then?

In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said:

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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

I agree. Plus, he will be guarding the #2 receiver when they are in man coverage.

In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said:

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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

BINGO!! Why the obsession over freaking money? They had it to spend! Good lord. Football never used to be this way but because of dumbass websites like PFF, the money makes it a bad signing?

Give me a break.

In comment 12981902 David in LA said:

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and the year after. Rising caps means inflation in contracts.

+1

As long as he performs better than Prince, I really don't care.

So at no point it should be questioned?

We severely overpaid for this guy. He isn't an impact player. He's a good player making $41 million in the next 3 years. It's a bad deal.

With Vernon we may have w rising player and an impact guy. This one is easier to understand. The cash on Jenkins could have been spread around to get at least 2 comparable/better players.

.

In comment 12982109 KWALL2 said:

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$41 million in first 3 years for Jenkins? Team would have been better if we used the cash for front 7 pass rush and speed. I would have signed Bruce Irvin over Jenkins. BAnd we still have more to sign another good player.

What if Irvin didn't want to come here? Then what? Didn't we sign a pass rusher anyway, I think we did right? Maybe I'm wrong though.

In comment 12982159 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 12982109 KWALL2 said: Quote: $41 million in first 3 years for Jenkins? Team would have been better if we used the cash for front 7 pass rush and speed. I would have signed Bruce Irvin over Jenkins. BAnd we still have more to sign another good player. What if Irvin didn't want to come here? Then what? Didn't we sign a pass rusher anyway, I think we did right? Maybe I'm wrong though.

One of my favorites is when a poster says we should have signed "x" instead. Like it is so easy. Not every free agent wants to sign with the Giants.

In comment 12981898 Big Blue '56 said:

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overpaid, even by a lot? We needed him once it was clear Prince wasn't coming back and we had the money to do it.. This obsession with money in this era of absurd payouts is silly. It will get worse..Much Worse imo

I feel like a broken record with this but it just falls on deaf ears. Seemingly everyone obsesses over contracts. And look I get it the cap or revenue sharing thing is a big factor -- salaries and contracts play a big supporting role in the pro sports landscape but it shouldn't be the most discussed narrative among media and fans. When a good young player hits the FA market he's going to get fucking paid. They ALL do. Sometimes the contracts work out. Sometimes they don't. It's all a gamble. Sitting back and not signing FAs is a gamble too. If the Giants keep prince for pennies and he misses 7 games next season fans would want Reese drawn and quartered.

All these FAs the Giants signed have to do is stay on the football field and the Giants will take that and run. Jenkins should hopefully be well insulated in this D. He has potential here.

also and wondered if it was a mistake at first. Then I got to thinking that Jenkins has only missed about 3 games in 4 years so he is not injury-prone.

If he can stay healthy all year and defend as well as Prince (when he was healthy) I think it's worth it. He's only 27.

KWALL: What other CBs were available that were solid players and available when the Giants signed Jenkins? It's like when we signed Beatty to his "big" contract. The Giants were sort of over a barrel at that time. Our defense sucked last year and if it took a lot of coin to fix it and they end up decent, it was worth it.

cornerback Brandon Carr ?

First: If Jenkins is really the 32nd-best corner (debatable), that makes him exactly average for NFL starting corners. (32 teams, each with 2 starting CBs.) Average starters are very valuable. (Don't you wish the Giants had an average RG and RT? Average LBs? Or that they had average safeties last season?)

Second: For the Giants, the question was "Is he an upgrade?" Even this article says yes, he was an upgrade. They had a bunch of cap space and it wouldn't have done them much good to say "Yeah, well, Jenkins is an upgrade, but not enough of an upgrade to spend that money on. So let's let Prince walk and just go through 2016 with a glaring hole at one CB spot, but lots of cap space."

Third: A team can only choose among the available players, and the players get to choose, too. The Giants could have passed on Jenkins in free agency and gambled that they'd get a top CB prospect in the draft. That would have been foolish. As it happens, they did get a top CB prospect in the draft. But there was no way to be sure of that during free agency.

Finally: Jenkins' contract is steep, but not insane. His cap # for 2016 is only $8M, and his peak cap # over the deal is 2017, at $15M. After that his cap hit declines. As noted above, cap inflation means that his deal will look pretty reasonable by 2018.

Also, if you look at the actual numbers, Jenkins deal has $28.8 million guaranteed, so the Giants wouldn't want to part with him before 2018 -- if they did, they'd take $20M+ hit in dead money for 2016 and/or 2017. After that, if they part ways, the dead cap hit would be painful, but less so over time: $6M in 2018, $4M in 2019, $2M in 2020.

It's not a bad contract. IT's a gamble, and it may not pay off, but it's not a bad gamble.

is the worst free agent signing of 2019-2020? Some good arguments for a bunch of guys.

Thoughts?

Giants played big money for a guy who gives up a lot of passing yardage and touchdowns but also makes big plays.

Sounds like the corners they had last year minus the big plays. Seems like an upgrade to me.

to bad players? They've had a lot in recent years, and those contracts that have killed them.

If Jenkins is a starter and plays well for them, there is no way this is among the worst contracts. Maybe they did over pay, but the worst contracts are the ones where a team pays starter money to bad players. I don't see that as the case here -they should have at least a good player at a premium position for several years. They paid a premium price for a young quality starting cornerback, because that's the going rate. I'll take that over sunken money on a bad player any day.