TE: A Giant Quagmire?

Giggity.

Too negative...a sticky situation that's difficult to get out of with no end in sight.

To me, what the Giants have is fierce competition at the position from a bunch of young, hungry, and talented guys - something they haven't had in a long time. Hopefully the cream of that crop will rise to the top this summer.

is one of the very interesting groups to watch this summer. There is some talent here.

minus when Black Unicorn was here. they are young and unproven but they have some players at this position

...

not quagmire.

C.W. post isn't even mentioned.

In comment 12991424 grizz299 said:

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C.W. post isn't even mentioned.

Guy from CW Post???

The guy who should be mentioned as a vet is Will Johnson, no?

It could be a strength

In comment 12991259 Klaatu said:

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Too negative...a sticky situation that's difficult to get out of with no end in sight. To me, what the Giants have is fierce competition at the position from a bunch of young, hungry, and talented guys - something they haven't had in a long time. Hopefully the cream of that crop will rise to the top this summer.

oh, yeah!

for example, Bavaro and Shockey. Maybe even Ballard

But I don't recall their ever having this depth. LaCosse and the kid they drafted both have talent. To be honest, I think Cunningham has enough talent to hang around the NFL as a third or fourth TE for a few seasons. And they let him go because their was not room on the roster for him.

I have zero worries about the TEs as a group.

team? Or that Shiancoe and Shockey were? The Giants have had waaay better 1-2 punches at TE than this group. IMO Cunningham was at best the essence of marginal. Looked ok in shorts and on a practice field but was a zilch in real games.

What's encouraging is that in all likelihood someone better than Cunningham will be cut, IRed or sent to PS from the group of Tye, Donnell, LaCosse, and Adams. Don't know where or how Schwartz gets the notion it will be Adams. Rare for a rookie draft pick to get cut or waived outright, and that's the only path to the PS.

So barring injury it's a good guess to state there are only 2 roster slots available for Tye, Donnell, and LaCosse. Hopefully 2 of these 3 really distinguish themselves in training camp and pre season games.

Barring injury...

You don't put the All NFL Rookie TE on the bubble. You give him a spot. Tye shouldn't just be safe but should be the starter.

In comment 12991484 Carl in CT said:

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You don't put the All NFL Rookie TE on the bubble. You give him a spot. Tye shouldn't just be safe but should be the starter.

Here's the write up to Tye's selection:

Tight end: Will Tye, New York Giants
Draft position: Undrafted.

Tye led a relatively weak tight end class with 464 receiving yards on 42 catches. He's a tough matchup because he has a stocky build -- checking in at 6-foot-2 1/8 and 262 pounds -- with 4.55 speed. It almost looks like he's a lineman, then all of a sudden, he's downfield, with his speed and explosion. Tye also did a pretty good job as a blocker. I think he helped open things up for the receivers and contributed to Eli Manning's strong season.

It isn't exactly glowing given the "weak class."

But it's more positive than Landon Collins' write up, who also made the All Rookie team. They suggested he be moved to LB and questioned if he's fast or quick enough to remain a safety...

But not sure I agree, especially not that he should be the defacto starter.

Interesting position battle for sure.

If you composed an NFC East depth chart, the highest ranking Giant would be listed 5 or 6. With the dink-pass WCO so prevalent in the game today, the ball is in the air constantly. Therefore, TE's are going to catch passes, almost by default. The Giants will need camp to allow a coup!e of these guys to gain separation from the others. However I wi!l be surprised if Adams isn't one of the three kept. The writer has him destined for the practice squad. Perhaps, instead, the writer should be sent to the football analyst practice squad.

You need to look at what Tye did as a starter at the end of the year - 7 games

44 att
32 rec
368 yds
11.5 ypc
3 tds

that is top 10 NFL TE production.

For all this talk of how talented Lacosse is, the Jets did not keep in on their PS after the Giants released him nor did any other NFL team last year

Tye is not going anywhere, Adams is going to make the team. The question is then do you keep Donnell

Is a strong blocker. Last year Vereen had to stay home, while Tye roamed free. I'd much rather have Vereen with the ball in his hand and someone else blocking.

Pass catching tight ends are now common. Well rounded tight ends are much harded to come by. Hopefully Lacosse and Adams fall into the well rounded camp with the FA addition/Hback Johnson.

.

that have produced in the NFL, and a drafted TE...hard to imagine Lacosse being picked over any of them......unless Donnell's neck flares up......or if someone outside of the three, plays lights out in the preseason....but that would really be a leap....

Similar to how they have been in recent years when they have had a decent player there (Boss, Ballard, Donnell, etc.).

I would really love for them to get someone who was a serious threat in the passing game -a guy the defenses need to be concerned about. I think they have a some guys who can get the job done, but I think it's doubtful any of them will emerge as that sort of a player. There is some potential though, and if any of them did, it could be the sort of thing that could put this offense over the top.

Adams will go to the practice squad. Unless he just can't grasp things, the team isn't going to give the rest of the league a chance to freely poach a draft pick.

In comment 12991472 Vanzetti said:

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for example, Bavaro and Shockey. Maybe even Ballard But I don't recall their ever having this depth. LaCosse and the kid they drafted both have talent. To be honest, I think Cunningham has enough talent to hang around the NFL as a third or fourth TE for a few seasons. And they let him go because their was not room on the roster for him. I have zero worries about the TEs as a group.

What good is depth without talent?

In comment 12991484 Carl in CT said:

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You don't put the All NFL Rookie TE on the bubble. You give him a spot. Tye shouldn't just be safe but should be the starter.

And he will be the starter. He performed admirably last year and will be better this year. Fast, athletic and with good size. The only thing he lacks is 2 inches in height. Hard to believe he is so under estimated here and in the press.

There are enough athletes/players at both positions. Depth on both lines is a concern. As a Giants fan, it's impossible not to worry wbout injuries to their starters, derailing their season.

I expected more YAC than he showed last year. He also supposedly didn't do real well blocking, but he admits he didn't know who he was supposed to be blocking frequently last year.

I also think his lack of height is a disadvantage vs Donnell, LaCosse, or Adams. Not sure he makes up for that at all with high pointing his receptions or leaping ability.

Regarding my 1st point, maybe his losing weight from last year to this will help his wiggle and RAC... We'll see.

I see a whole lot of question marks. You get what you pay for, and at this position Reese has consistently shopped at the dollar store.

In comment 12991627 Enzo said:

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I see a whole lot of question marks. You get what you pay for, and at this position Reese has consistently shopped at the dollar store.

Another way to look at it, they addressed the position in various ways, they collected talent, and now it has to get on the field to play to know what they have.

Young players have to come from somewhere. This is part of what happens in the "draft and develop process". I wouldn't assume the worst at this point. They look stocked at the position compared to last season at this time.

The Giants won a Super Bowl with Jake Ballard, Bear Pascoe, and Travis Beckum as their TEs. A UDFA, a 6th round pick that was cut by the team that drafted him before the season began, and the last pick in the 3rd round of the 2009 draft, who had a whopping 21 receptions in his first two years in the league.

This year, TE is the least of my worries.

And I would imagine some general improvement from Tye after some success under his belt at end of the year because of confidence and familiarity alone.

Donnell does as many bad things as good things so that balance has to change otherwise he will be outside looking in.

Nobody here can gauge yet what they have yet in LaCosse or Adams.

BTW - Adams clearly makes the team. Giants may have gone thru some changes in the off-season but that doesn't mean they have become suicidal.

In comment 12991666 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 12991627 Enzo said: Quote: I see a whole lot of question marks. You get what you pay for, and at this position Reese has consistently shopped at the dollar store. Another way to look at it, they addressed the position in various ways, they collected talent, and now it has to get on the field to play to know what they have. Young players have to come from somewhere. This is part of what happens in the "draft and develop process". I wouldn't assume the worst at this point. They look stocked at the position compared to last season at this time.

by that definition, every position on the roster has been "addressed". But has it been addressed in a way that will yield results? "Draft and develop" is nice...but only one of these guys was actually drafted so they need a whole lot of developing. Several of these guys are more likely to be out of the league in 1-2 years than on a roster.

Roster-immunity for draft picks tails off dramatically after round 5. Sure, the draftees are given strong opportunities to win jobs, but if there's a number crunch and the team thinks they can sneak them onto the Practice Squad, they will. They did just that with 2014 6th-rounder Bennett Jackson, for example.

In comment 12991741 Enzo said:

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In comment 12991666 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 12991627 Enzo said: Quote: I see a whole lot of question marks. You get what you pay for, and at this position Reese has consistently shopped at the dollar store. Another way to look at it, they addressed the position in various ways, they collected talent, and now it has to get on the field to play to know what they have. Young players have to come from somewhere. This is part of what happens in the "draft and develop process". I wouldn't assume the worst at this point. They look stocked at the position compared to last season at this time. by that definition, every position on the roster has been "addressed". But has it been addressed in a way that will yield results? "Draft and develop" is nice...but only one of these guys was actually drafted so they need a whole lot of developing. Several of these guys are more likely to be out of the league in 1-2 years than on a roster.

You would expect to see improvement in Donnell and also LaCosse, and Tye. Three guys who have been in the system. The biggest leap any player makes is from year 1 to year 2.

In comment 12991725 Klaatu said:

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The Giants won a Super Bowl with Jake Ballard, Bear Pascoe, and Travis Beckum as their TEs. A UDFA, a 6th round pick that was cut by the team that drafted him before the season began, and the last pick in the 3rd round of the 2009 draft, who had a whopping 21 receptions in his first two years in the league.

But is that the approach necessarily a blueprint for sustainable success? The results since that season would indicate otherwise. And even in that season the roster yielded a negative point differential. Yes it's possible to uncover the occasional undrafted gem and catch lightning in a bottle, but relying on that approach is extremely risky.

In comment 12991778 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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You would expect to see improvement in Donnell and also LaCosse, and Tye. Three guys who have been in the system. The biggest leap any player makes is from year 1 to year 2.

that's a scary thought if Donnell has already made his "leap".

and Belichick picks him off -- there will be a lemming-like quagmire of BBIers that run madly off a cliff

Seriously - Adams will get every opportunity to make the team -- but if McAdoo has 3 options that prove seriously better than him in training camp, he certainly gets cut and assigned to the practice squad. Adams was a high reward, high risk pick in the seventh round and certainly expendable for better talent

Enter the league as UDFAs? Obviously the stars that were UDFAs are rarities, but the Giants don't need a star TE.

Besides that with fewer college offenses using the prototypic TE, there simply aren't many available worthy of drafting compared to positions like WR and RB.

In any case Adams was pretty widely regarded as the 3rd-5th ranked TE in his class, and the Giants hauled him in as the 7th TE selected.

So he's more like a clearance rack guy from a top department store, than a bargain basement shop pickup.😉

In comment 12991830 gidiefor said:

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and Belichick picks him off -- there will be a lemming-like quagmire of BBIers that run madly off a cliff Seriously - Adams will get every opportunity to make the team -- but if McAdoo has 3 options that prove seriously better than him in training camp, he certainly gets cut and assigned to the practice squad. Adams was a high reward, high risk pick in the seventh round and certainly expendable for better talent

6th

Hit TTH's hanging curveball out of the park. Yikes!

In comment 12991830 gidiefor said:

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and Belichick picks him off -- there will be a lemming-like quagmire of BBIers that run madly off a cliff Seriously - Adams will get every opportunity to make the team -- but if McAdoo has 3 options that prove seriously better than him in training camp, he certainly gets cut and assigned to the practice squad. Adams was a high reward, high risk pick in the seventh round and certainly expendable for better talent

Exactly. The shit show that would occur on BBI if we lost a prospect to another team would be epic. James Jones-like.

BTW Gidiefor, i think Adams was a 6th rounder. And I wouldn't characterize him as high risk pick either as he was on many lists of TEs to be drafted.

In comment 12991797 Enzo said:

Quote:

In comment 12991725 Klaatu said: Quote: The Giants won a Super Bowl with Jake Ballard, Bear Pascoe, and Travis Beckum as their TEs. A UDFA, a 6th round pick that was cut by the team that drafted him before the season began, and the last pick in the 3rd round of the 2009 draft, who had a whopping 21 receptions in his first two years in the league. But is that the approach necessarily a blueprint for sustainable success? The results since that season would indicate otherwise. And even in that season the roster yielded a negative point differential. Yes it's possible to uncover the occasional undrafted gem and catch lightning in a bottle, but relying on that approach is extremely risky.

Perhaps if Jake Ballard hadn't suffered a career-ending knee injury, the blueprint for sustainable success would have been re-written.

In comment 12991815 Enzo said:

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In comment 12991778 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: You would expect to see improvement in Donnell and also LaCosse, and Tye. Three guys who have been in the system. The biggest leap any player makes is from year 1 to year 2. that's a scary thought if Donnell has already made his "leap".

If I hit you truth serum, you'd honestly say Donnell's biggest weak areas are ball security and blocking. Correctable. Any one of us would take 63 catches for 600 yards and 6 TDs out of the TE spot in 2016 if the football ghost offered us that deal.

In comment 12991859 Jimmy Googs said:

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Exactly. The shit show that would occur on BBI if we lost a prospect to another team would be epic. James Jones-like. BTW Gidiefor, i think Adams was a 6th rounder. And I wouldn't characterize him as high risk pick either as he was on many lists of TEs to be drafted.

Googsie -- you're right -- the Giants didn't have a 7th round pick -- and Adams has a lot of potential and production in college -- that's on the plus side of why you keep him -- and if he's the goods he will separate himself from the pack -- btw the last time Reese drafted a low round TE - he turned out pretty good -- his name was Kevin Boss - he was a fifth rounder I believe

Off the team is injury. He has a size/speed/blocking combo that no one else in the room has. That's not to say he will start, just that his blend of skills and physical attributes will allow him to have a role on this team as a rookie and that role is likely to grow significantly over the next several seasons.

But Tye has to be the starter, and I'm happy with that. The guy is a weapon in the passing game, there's no denying it. The problem will be retaining all the talent that is there. This is a good group of players, I don't care where or if they were drafted.

on the PS would be like handing him over to another team. I know some 6th rounders go to the PS, but not ones who were expected to be drafted much higher. It would be like saying Perkins might go to the PS.

First, in the Parcells' tradition of apt nicknames - who can forget "Toast" Patterson - the starter who emerges from this current crop should forever after be called "Quagmire".

Now for reality, Will Tye is a phenom, a bit like catching lightning in a bottle. Too short? 6'2" ain't short, and the lad can sky pretty well. Tye's fast, faster even the rookie Adams, who had the fastest TE time of all the 2016 TE draftees, and more than that he plays fast, not just in a straight line. At 265 lbs., or even if he's dropped some lbs., he's a load as a blocker, at which he steadily improved. I doubt Stony Brook asked for much on that count. He has good hands, and moves well after the catch, with a knack for finding the end zone.

Better still, Donnell, if he doesn't get injured neck damage being an often reoccurring career ending continuum, could be a bang- bang #2TE in a double TE offense. Adams, will be a superb backup in his rookie learning year, as well as a special teams ace. Then comes LaCosse, who if he continues to shine as he did in OTAs, is another excellent backup & special teams contributor.

And finally, Will Johnson, fullback, h-back, TE & special teams ace. Put them all together they spell WINNER, 'cause ya' can't have enough good blocking.

So, five quality TEs on the 53 man roster, all of whom can catch, block & bolster special teams. What's to discuss? Where's the Quagmire? Answer: The Giant's are back at TE, and the only question left is who will win the nickname "Quagmire."

that was some happy horseshit covering several inane paragraphs.

Just for comparison YPC while he was a starter

Tye - 11.5

J. Reed - 10.9
J. Witten - 9.3
Z. Ertz - 11.4
B. Watson - 11.1
H. Miller - 8.9
R. Rodgers - 8.8
C. Fleener 9.1
M. Bennett- 8.3
C. Clay 10.4
K. Rudolph 10.9
E. Ebron 11.4

TE with more catches than Tye and a better YPC are:
J. Graham (12.6), Eiffert (11.8) Kelce(12.2) Gronk(16.3) Olsen(14.3) Barnidge(13.2) Walker(11.6)

of a TE? Simple, receiving and blocking. Do TEs, as this thread seems to imply, play all by themselves in some other weird dimension, unconnected to the other members of the team expected to block and to catch? So with the improved receivers, the improved offense, can the Giants manage without a big star receiving tight end? If Victor approaches previous performance levels, the group including the TEs, with Eli releasing quickly, could be simply explosive. On the blocking side, the backfield seems, with the committee, to lack a great one, but we have a deep, experienced, and potentially great committee. And the RBs, with an exception or so, can also catch the ball. In Shockey's day, he could be targeted. Hence, taken in context, it is suggested that the Giant's receivers, for sure, have depth, and more promise than for a long time. Stay tuned.

In comment 12991876 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 12991815 Enzo said: Quote: In comment 12991778 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: You would expect to see improvement in Donnell and also LaCosse, and Tye. Three guys who have been in the system. The biggest leap any player makes is from year 1 to year 2. that's a scary thought if Donnell has already made his "leap". If I hit you truth serum, you'd honestly say Donnell's biggest weak areas are ball security and blocking. Correctable. Any one of us would take 63 catches for 600 yards and 6 TDs out of the TE spot in 2016 if the football ghost offered us that deal.

well he's been in the organization since 2012 and turns 28 during this upcoming season. So I'd say time is running out for any realistic expectation of him correcting his flaws. As for that level of production, that's pretty mediocre. And half those TDs came in one game against a team that won 4 games.

Adams doesn't wrestle this job away as a rookie. His athleticism and physicality is what we have needed from a TE since Bennett. I still think he might be my second favorite pick from this draft behind Shepard.

In comment 12992336 Enzo said:

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As for that level of production, that's pretty mediocre.

That seems to be dependent on who the player is.

When Jake Ballard put up the same numbers he was looked upon as a gift from the heavens.

In comment 12992359 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 12992336 Enzo said: Quote: As for that level of production, that's pretty mediocre. That seems to be dependent on who the player is. When Jake Ballard put up the same numbers he was looked upon as a gift from the heavens.

that's a pretty lame gift considering he had a whopping 38 catches. But Ballard at least could block and somehow managed to catch the ball without flailing all over the place, landing on his head, and turning it over.

And wasn't that shit non call a TD?

Anyway it's a reasonable guess more than 1 of the current group of TEs are better than Ballard

In comment 12992405 Enzo said:

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In comment 12992359 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 12992336 Enzo said: Quote: As for that level of production, that's pretty mediocre. That seems to be dependent on who the player is. When Jake Ballard put up the same numbers he was looked upon as a gift from the heavens. that's a pretty lame gift considering he had a whopping 38 catches. But Ballard at least could block and somehow managed to catch the ball without flailing all over the place, landing on his head, and turning it over.

Some knuckleheads here couldn't be more thrilled when we didn't bring back Martellus Bennett, and were really enthused about Brandon Myers being Eli's safety blanket. LOL.

I believe That Donnell and Tye can be Dangerous Seem and Red Zone Targets---and Tye's speed allows them to play in Pairs.

They do not have a Large "WR" in Camp, but these guys are going to fill that void. They Can go on the Field With 2&2.... Sterling and Beck...Donnel and Tye.....Vereen

That's going to be an interesting Grouping

In comment 12992787 Rafflee said:

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I believe That Donnell and Tye can be Dangerous Seem and Red Zone Targets---and Tye's speed allows them to play in Pairs. They do not have a Large "WR" in Camp...

Huh? You must've missed the FA signings of Dable x France and Powe of the UCB Golden Bears.

Not to miss 2nd year 2015 draft pick Geremy Davis who has been lining up mostly with the 1s at the OTAs...

Davis is 6'2" and 217#
Powe 6'3" and 220#
Dable 6'4" and 220

Davis and Powe are tall, thick, and muscular.
Dable is very tall and wiry and an excellent raw athlete with rare movement and body control for his size, but greener than grass.

MacAdoo will do whatever to create mismatches with tall TEs lining up wide, and it's possible (but unlikely) none of those 3 WRs make the 53, but right now they are all on the roster fighting for a spot and playing time.

If none of them make the roster, that's a good thing vis a vis Cruz's health and how one or more of the smaller FA WRs perform in trading camp and pre season. Both King and Lewis are at least 6'0" too.

In comment 12992998 BlueLou said:
Yeah---I guess they Terchnically have "Big Bodied WR's" "In Camp"..... I believe their TE sets will Provide Mismatches and Production as Seam and Post Targets. They can use the Two TE's to force Mismatches, incombination to the Two outside receivers and Vereen. Lots of interesting options with Tye---who I feel is a Unique Talent.

Quote:

In comment 12992787 Rafflee said: Quote: I believe That Donnell and Tye can be Dangerous Seem and Red Zone Targets---and Tye's speed allows them to play in Pairs. They do not have a Large "WR" in Camp... Huh? You must've missed the FA signings of Dable x France and Powe of the UCB Golden Bears. Not to miss 2nd year 2015 draft pick Geremy Davis who has been lining up mostly with the 1s at the OTAs... Davis is 6'2" and 217# Powe 6'3" and 220# Dable 6'4" and 220 Davis and Powe are tall, thick, and muscular. Dable is very tall and wiry and an excellent raw athlete with rare movement and body control for his size, but greener than grass. MacAdoo will do whatever to create mismatches with tall TEs lining up wide, and it's possible (but unlikely) none of those 3 WRs make the 53, but right now they are all on the roster fighting for a spot and playing time. If none of them make the roster, that's a good thing vis a vis Cruz's health and how one or more of the smaller FA WRs perform in trading camp and pre season. Both King and Lewis are at least 6'0" too.