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NFT: NHL Off-season Thread

NYerInMA : 6/13/2016 10:07 am
Now that the calamity of another Pens' Cup has occurred, everyone can move on to the business of getting to June 2017. The Rangers, obviously, have a lot of work to do to get back to being a contender. Word is the salary cap may actually shrink, which puts several teams, including NYR, CHI, and PIT in crunches. Should be an interesting couple of months!
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I like Shattenkirk better than Yandle 3 years from now  
MetsAreBack : 6/20/2016 6:01 pm : link
and I like him at his cap hit better. So, yes.

My ideal offseason is Nash and Staal are traded for a couple of picks or prospects and we acquire Shattenkirk for McIlraith and a prospect. Pipedream on my part, but that's my hope.
Of course we had a shot at Yandle  
NYerInMA : 6/20/2016 6:02 pm : link
Gorton/AV/Sather just aren't willing to get rid of Girardi/Staal/Nash to clear the necessary space. The team is going to be significantly weakened by Yandle's absence, unless they land Shattenkirk or someone comparable.
RE: do you guys like Shattenkirk  
Anakim : 6/20/2016 6:03 pm : link
In comment 13001509 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
better than Yandle?


Not I. I think Yandle is better offensively and defensively.
Sorry, but we should've gotten more  
Anakim : 6/20/2016 6:05 pm : link
If Jimmy Vesey can net a third and Nick Spaling can net a second, we should've gotten more than a sixth and a conditional fourth.
As has been discussed many, many times  
MetsAreBack : 6/20/2016 6:06 pm : link
all three of those guys have NMCs. Girardi is not moveable - its keep him and hope he gets plucked in next year's expansion draft, or buy him out and have significant dead cap money for the next 8 years.

Nash and Staal are hopefully moveable but it wont be easy. Rumor has it other teams want NYR to eat 30% of Staal's contract.

And Yandle is going to get paid a fortune on the wrong side of 30. This officially marks the end of what was one of the worst trades in Rangers franchise history - made because Sather didn't care about the long-term of this organization.
RE: RE: do you guys like Shattenkirk  
pjcas18 : 6/20/2016 6:07 pm : link
In comment 13001518 Anakim said:
Quote:
In comment 13001509 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


better than Yandle?




Not I. I think Yandle is better offensively and defensively.


I think they're eerily similar. But all things being equal I'd take Shattenkirk. Both get pushed around in front of the net, and are more offensive minded than defensive, but I'd make Shattenkirk a top 2 defenseman, worst case top 4 and I wouldn't feel like i had to pair him with a stay at home defenseman. He has better instincts IMO.

I like Yandle better on the PP, but Shattenkirk is good there too.

they're a lot alike IMO, so the cheaper of the two is maybe the better.
Great start to the Rangers off-season! WTF! SMH!  
TheMick7 : 6/20/2016 6:10 pm : link
.
If the Rangers want Shattenkirk  
bigbluehoya : 6/20/2016 6:12 pm : link
they really ought to be waiting until next offseason when they don't need to give anything up and don't have to use a protection slot on him.
I'm really curious  
Kyle in NY : 6/20/2016 6:12 pm : link
What kind of efforts have been made to move Staal/Girardi.
RE: If the Rangers want Shattenkirk  
MetsAreBack : 6/20/2016 6:13 pm : link
In comment 13001532 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
they really ought to be waiting until next offseason when they don't need to give anything up and don't have to use a protection slot on him.



Fair point, forgot about this protection slot stuff.
RE: As has been discussed many, many times  
SethFromAstoria : 6/20/2016 6:14 pm : link
In comment 13001523 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
all three of those guys have NMCs. Girardi is not moveable - its keep him and hope he gets plucked in next year's expansion draft, or buy him out and have significant dead cap money for the next 8 years.

Nash and Staal are hopefully moveable but it wont be easy. Rumor has it other teams want NYR to eat 30% of Staal's contract.

And Yandle is going to get paid a fortune on the wrong side of 30. This officially marks the end of what was one of the worst trades in Rangers franchise history - made because Sather didn't care about the long-term of this organization.


Holy fuckin dumb.
I love you too  
MetsAreBack : 6/20/2016 6:15 pm : link

You are literally the only person in North America that thinks Girardi is a good player. It's cute.
Staal and Girardi's contraces have absolutely crippled this team  
Anakim : 6/20/2016 6:16 pm : link
We had to say goodbye to Stralman, Hagelin and now Yandle because Sather gave those two absurd contracts.
So, my Rangers friends...  
pganut : 6/20/2016 6:21 pm : link
With Yandle out of the salary picture, so goes a minimum anticipated contract with a $5.25M cap number on it. Does that create room, in a flat cap, for you to puke up $2M/year for each of 2 yrs for Boomer's future son in law? If so, is that contingent upon also ridding yourselves of AV's boy, Tanner Glass?
RE: So, my Rangers friends...  
NYerInMA : 6/20/2016 6:26 pm : link
In comment 13001541 pganut said:
Quote:
With Yandle out of the salary picture, so goes a minimum anticipated contract with a $5.25M cap number on it. Does that create room, in a flat cap, for you to puke up $2M/year for each of 2 yrs for Boomer's future son in law? If so, is that contingent upon also ridding yourselves of AV's boy, Tanner Glass?


There's no reason to have Glass or Martin on the roster, ever.
RE: RE: If the Rangers want Shattenkirk  
pjcas18 : 6/20/2016 6:41 pm : link
In comment 13001534 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
In comment 13001532 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


they really ought to be waiting until next offseason when they don't need to give anything up and don't have to use a protection slot on him.




Fair point, forgot about this protection slot stuff.


Shattenkirk is a FA after this coming season. so he's not going to get much in return and is very possibly unlikely to be selected because he'd need a new contract, not sure how that works if he's selected in the expansion draft but doesn't come to agreement on a contract.

One if you guys probably knows.
For what it's worth  
bigbluehoya : 6/20/2016 6:45 pm : link
The 1 year of Shattenkirk is being talked about broadly as requiring a very high return. If it didn't, they'd just hold him until the trade deadline.

I don't even know if the expansion club would be allowed to pick him, but basically they would be doing so only for cap space. He'd still be a UFA with no strings on 7/1. In theory they'd have 10 days negotiating advantage.
Realy enjoyed watching Yandle play  
Kyle in NY : 6/20/2016 7:47 pm : link
he did about as well as could have been expected once they took the reigns off.

But history will not be kind to that trade unfortunately. I get the idea of going for it. But...ugh
RE: For what it's worth  
pjcas18 : 6/20/2016 7:50 pm : link
In comment 13001578 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
The 1 year of Shattenkirk is being talked about broadly as requiring a very high return. If it didn't, they'd just hold him until the trade deadline.

I don't even know if the expansion club would be allowed to pick him, but basically they would be doing so only for cap space. He'd still be a UFA with no strings on 7/1. In theory they'd have 10 days negotiating advantage.


at the deadline he'll be a short-term rental, how would he be more valuable then? they are unlikely to extend him, and he'll be a FA after the season. I like him, but I'm not giving up a ton for him.
What did they give up for yandle ?  
djm : 6/20/2016 8:00 pm : link
Wasn't it two 2nd rounders? So they gave up two second rounders for two years of yandle and the 3rd and 6th. Not good but one of the worst rangers of all time? Not quite that bad.
way off  
djm : 6/20/2016 8:03 pm : link
Quote:
The Rangers acquired defenseman Keith Yandle, defenseman Chris Summers and a fourth-round pick in 2016 in exchange for defenseman John Moore, top prospect Anthony Duclair, a lottery-protected first-round draft pick in 2016 and a second-round pick in 2015. The Coyotes also are retaining 50 percent of Yandle's salary...
Can't wait for Stamkos  
Giants2012 : 6/20/2016 8:05 pm : link
to sign in NY for $300 million once the rest of the team is moved out.
Read  
Giantfootball025 : 6/20/2016 10:30 pm : link
a rumor that involved Nash to Anaheim for Fowler. I don't now how it would work though wihtout keeping a large amount of Nash salary and why the Rangers would do that.
I dunno about Nash straight up for Fowler  
MetsAreBack : 6/21/2016 9:23 am : link
Anaheim has the cap space and Nash gives them a much needed boost offensively (while also giving them terrific PK and overall defense play).

Now if its Nash + Girardi for Fowler... I'm all in !
this is only a rumor from another site...  
Drewcon40 : 6/21/2016 9:33 am : link
...that referenced "The Hockey Press". I am not claiming to be an asshat. This was from HFBoards

Fowler, Theodore, Silfverberg + cond 5th for Nash, 25% retained, Skapski, a cond 3rd, + 2 AHLers

2 AHLers could mean a promising player.

Shea Theodore would be a great add for a rebuild/retool. This looks too good in favor of the Rangers to be true.

If posting these rumors adds to frustration, kindly let me know. I am just sharing what I read on another site.
Drewcon  
bigbluehoya : 6/21/2016 9:36 am : link
I don't think you're adding to anyone's frustration, but I will say that particular rumor looks completely fabricated. That would be an incredibly bad deal for Anaheim.
thanks BBH  
Drewcon40 : 6/21/2016 9:39 am : link
As recent as last year, many of us Ranger fans awaited this incredible Talbot trade. So until some of the beat writers start to report any smoke, I'll assume nothing is doing. The other rumor I read (maybe here?) was Stepan (not to the Wild but to the Blue Jackets) along with Fast for Hartnell and their 1st rounder.
That one seems a lot more realistic.  
bigbluehoya : 6/21/2016 9:44 am : link
And I don't like it.

a) I will vomit if I ever have to root for anything other than Scott Hartnell getting the shit beat out of him
b) Rangers need to be adding to their forecheck, not using their best forechecker as an add-in.

This deal would be somewhat palatable in the context of a complete tear-down job. Doesn't fit in with a "re-tool" as it makes the NHL roster significantly worse without any substantial immediate cap relief.
Nash is pretty much the Rangers best overall forward  
djm : 6/21/2016 10:27 am : link
be careful about dealing him just to shed salary. Rangers would take a big hit if Nash isn't adequately replaced. I'd rather compliment him but I know the Rangers are salary fucked in some ways.

Nash straight up for Fowler would suck  
Anakim : 6/21/2016 10:28 am : link
I like Fowler but he's a pretty big drop-off from Yandle. He's also not strong defensively. He'd be relegated to sheltered minutes on the third pair with McIlrath probably (funny that we'd come full circle).
Got  
Giantfootball025 : 6/21/2016 10:37 am : link
a feeling the Rangers are going to be making a lot of moves, and the ultimate goal is to rebuild. If that's the case there is no reason to keep Hank. Why let him waste away his last few years with a young team?
RE: Got  
Giants2012 : 6/21/2016 10:45 am : link
In comment 13002216 Giantfootball025 said:
Quote:
a feeling the Rangers are going to be making a lot of moves, and the ultimate goal is to rebuild. If that's the case there is no reason to keep Hank. Why let him waste away his last few years with a young team?


I think the Rangers will dump a ton of salary, obtain some young talent, some draft picks and then sign Stamkos. In typical Rangers fashion, once we start enjoying the kids and see the holes the trade deadline will result in trading the kids away for costly veterans and the cycle continues.

I think a lot of people are over-stating  
bigbluehoya : 6/21/2016 10:59 am : link
the Rangers current state of disrepair.

There's no defending the Girardi and Staal contracts. Point conceded.

The Nash contract isn't half the albatross many fans would have you believe it is. He still brings a lot to the table and he'll be moved.

They have a handful of extremely high value contracts in McDonagh, Zuccarello, Brassard, and Klein. On the open market, that's probably somewhere between $20-25m worth of value that's costing the Rangers, what, somewhere between $15-17m of cap? (Didn't do the exact math, just spitballing there).

There are some really promising young players under control (Miller, Kreider, Hayes, Fast, Skjei, Buch).

Trading Stepan is hardly "selling the kids for the shiny". It would be liquidating a player who gets paid his full market value, avoiding another NMC, and replenishing some assets while likely also freeing up some money to term out some of the young RFAs.

The FO isn't without their share of significant mistakes, but by any large the organization has provided it's fans with a pretty darn good product for going on ten years. Yes, the cup is still missing.

I'm a little surprised by how overwhelmingly negative some of the outlooks are, even if everything isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
Best post  
Fish : 6/21/2016 11:09 am : link
From a rags fan in a long time. The rest need to settle down.
RE: As has been discussed many, many times  
Andy in Halifax : 6/21/2016 11:11 am : link
In comment 13001523 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
all three of those guys have NMCs. Girardi is not moveable - its keep him and hope he gets plucked in next year's expansion draft, or buy him out and have significant dead cap money for the next 8 years.

NMC's have to be protected in the expansion draft.
Girardi's contract  
bigbluehoya : 6/21/2016 11:13 am : link
Becomes a modified NTC for the expansion draft. It's widely believed he won't need to be protected (pending final expansion rules)
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 6/21/2016 11:17 am : link
Andy, if the NMC turns into a NTC on July 1, 2017 it might be able to be exposed. The rules are unclear right now.

Great post, Hoya. I've been a vocal critic of some of the moves in recent years, but we should probably wait until the weekend/free agency to be critical (or optimistic).
Thanks for clarification.  
Andy in Halifax : 6/21/2016 11:19 am : link
.
Rick Nash scored 40 goals 2 seasons ago  
Dave M : 6/21/2016 11:23 am : link
That's great production. Yeah, he's a dud in the playoffs but that's not all on him.
RE: Rick Nash scored 40 goals 2 seasons ago  
feelflows : 6/21/2016 11:28 am : link
In comment 13002306 Dave M said:
Quote:
That's great production. Yeah, he's a dud in the playoffs but that's not all on him.


I like Nash. He is 32 and slowing down, but still productive. Not at that contract, though.

RE: Rick Nash scored 40 goals 2 seasons ago  
BrettNYG10 : 6/21/2016 11:30 am : link
In comment 13002306 Dave M said:
Quote:
That's great production. Yeah, he's a dud in the playoffs but that's not all on him.


I'd also add that Nash had a decent, not great, 2015 post-season and was good in 2016 (small sample size, obviously). He was awful in 2013 and 2014, though.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/21/2016 11:31 am : link
I think the Rangers are going to have to take a step back to take steps forward.. which is fine. I'm anticipating this coming year likely being another 1 and done (maybe not even making the playoffs but being close). Not the end of the world. We still have assets and young talent. It's not something that needs to be blown up completely but it's going to take a decent amount of re-tooling.
RE: I think a lot of people are over-stating  
feelflows : 6/21/2016 11:34 am : link
In comment 13002259 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
the Rangers current state of disrepair.

There's no defending the Girardi and Staal contracts. Point conceded.

The Nash contract isn't half the albatross many fans would have you believe it is. He still brings a lot to the table and he'll be moved.

They have a handful of extremely high value contracts in McDonagh, Zuccarello, Brassard, and Klein. On the open market, that's probably somewhere between $20-25m worth of value that's costing the Rangers, what, somewhere between $15-17m of cap? (Didn't do the exact math, just spitballing there).

There are some really promising young players under control (Miller, Kreider, Hayes, Fast, Skjei, Buch).

Trading Stepan is hardly "selling the kids for the shiny". It would be liquidating a player who gets paid his full market value, avoiding another NMC, and replenishing some assets while likely also freeing up some money to term out some of the young RFAs.

The FO isn't without their share of significant mistakes, but by any large the organization has provided it's fans with a pretty darn good product for going on ten years. Yes, the cup is still missing.

I'm a little surprised by how overwhelmingly negative some of the outlooks are, even if everything isn't all sunshine and rainbows.


do you think that the Rangers will have to eat significant money to move Nash for value?

He's due $8M & $8.2M the next two years.

I'm not saying they can't move him, I just think that for an OK return there will have to be salary retention.
RE: .  
feelflows : 6/21/2016 11:37 am : link
In comment 13002320 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I think the Rangers are going to have to take a step back to take steps forward.. which is fine. I'm anticipating this coming year likely being another 1 and done (maybe not even making the playoffs but being close). Not the end of the world. We still have assets and young talent. It's not something that needs to be blown up completely but it's going to take a decent amount of re-tooling.


Their biggest obstacles after they move some contracts will be:

1) lack of draft picks
2) when they DO have picks, they are later (due to success)

I think most of the guys that the Rangers want to move are moveable IF they waive the NTC and the Rangers retain salary. The flat cap leaves little wiggle room for other teams to maneuver.

Sounds like there may be a deal  
NYerInMA : 6/21/2016 11:37 am : link
sending Bishop to Calgary from TB.
It's a sliding scale in my mind  
bigbluehoya : 6/21/2016 11:41 am : link
Return goes up with the amount retained.

Depends what the FO is keen on doing. If they want to go balls out on Stammer (note: I'm not necessarily advocating this) you accept the lower return from somebody who will take the whole contract. If they're focused on the pipeline, eat $2-3M of it and max out the value coming back.

At the end of the day, I think 2 years is actually a great remaining term for a trade. It's not a rental and it has huge upside, but it also isn't going to hurt anyone long term.

I think eating something like $2m could be a happy medium where you get some nice value while also freeing up $5m.

It's heavily dependent on the trading partner though. Maybe you don't need to retain, but you effectively do so in taking back a contract that the other trading partner doesn't love.
RE: Sounds like there may be a deal  
feelflows : 6/21/2016 11:41 am : link
In comment 13002337 NYerInMA said:
Quote:
sending Bishop to Calgary from TB.


they tried for Fleury, but apparently the Pens are asking a kings ransom.

RE: Sounds like there may be a deal  
arcarsenal : 6/21/2016 11:44 am : link
In comment 13002337 NYerInMA said:
Quote:
sending Bishop to Calgary from TB.


Any word on what CGY would be sending back?
Pens  
Giantfootball025 : 6/21/2016 11:45 am : link
going to get something good for MAF. Only hope is Murray just had a great run and will settle back down. Can't stand seeing the Pens win and get better.
RE: It's a sliding scale in my mind  
feelflows : 6/21/2016 11:45 am : link
In comment 13002347 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
Return goes up with the amount retained.

Depends what the FO is keen on doing. If they want to go balls out on Stammer (note: I'm not necessarily advocating this) you accept the lower return from somebody who will take the whole contract. If they're focused on the pipeline, eat $2-3M of it and max out the value coming back.

At the end of the day, I think 2 years is actually a great remaining term for a trade. It's not a rental and it has huge upside, but it also isn't going to hurt anyone long term.

I think eating something like $2m could be a happy medium where you get some nice value while also freeing up $5m.

It's heavily dependent on the trading partner though. Maybe you don't need to retain, but you effectively do so in taking back a contract that the other trading partner doesn't love.


I agree with everything here, basically.

It's a tough decision for a team, with the cap not going up. He scored 15 goals this year. The year before? 42.

I actually think his greatest trade value will be when the available players are taken (Lucic, Stamkos and company) and a team still needs a scorer. Then it's worth the gamble.
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