It's actually hard to do what the Giants have done on defense. It's hard to be this bad for so long. I think there are probably a bunch of young Giants fans out there now who have no idea what a good Giants defense looks like.
Eli. The team had cap room and spent it to upgrade key positions. Change invites unpredictability both good or bad. The NFC East is still a weak division ripe for the taking.
OV, JPP, Hank, Snacks, OO all back and healthy? They figure to be much better against the run and bring a pass rush.
The secondary should be improved. I think JJ~PA, but Prince couldn't stay healthy so JJ>PA. Add in Eli Apple and the return of our top FS from last year who were all out injured the entire season, as well as an addition.
The LBers should be improved as well, since all they've really lost is Beason and he couldn't stay healthy either.
So basically, if they can stay healthy, they should be much, much better. Good enough to be a top unit? Depends on how healthy they can stay, and how much the offense puts teams behind (I think a lot).
It's actually hard to do what the Giants have done on defense. It's hard to be this bad for so long. I think there are probably a bunch of young Giants fans out there now who have no idea what a good Giants defense looks like.
There are also a lot of older fans who forgot. Defense wins Championships....period.
That's not a very high bar and the additions of Vernon, Harrison, Jenkins, and Robinson, the return of JPP, Hankins, Odighizuwa and Kennard, the drafing of Apple and Thompson is a virtually complete overhaul of the D. Middle of the pack is very doable.
- gave up 4783 Passing yds last year - the league average was 3901.
- gave up 31 passing TDs - the league average was 26.3
- gave up 1942 rushing yards - the league average was 1741
- gave up 15 rushing TDs - the league average was 11.4
- gave up 423 completions - the league average was 360
- had 623 passing attempts against them - the league average was 572
- gave up 236 passing first downs - the league average was 196.5
- gave up 104 rushing first downs - the league average was 92.9
14% improvement in these stats -- puts them in the top half of the league
Lawrence Taylor, Carl Banks, & Harry Carson would forget the importance of a top notch line backing unit.
And this completely misses the point. What was important to an '80s 3-4 defense has nothing whatsoever to do with a 4-3 defense playing in the 21st century. How "top notch" were the LBers on the Giants' two Super Bowl championship teams this century. How "top notch" were the DLs and DBs.
- gave up 4783 Passing yds last year - the league average was 3901.
- gave up 31 passing TDs - the league average was 26.3
- gave up 1942 rushing yards - the league average was 1741
- gave up 15 rushing TDs - the league average was 11.4
- gave up 423 completions - the league average was 360
- had 623 passing attempts against them - the league average was 572
- gave up 236 passing first downs - the league average was 196.5
- gave up 104 rushing first downs - the league average was 92.9
14% improvement in these stats -- puts them in the top half of the league
did they do enough to make a 14% improvement
And still we were thisclose to 10-6..Again, get off the field at key times and learn to close out games. I believe that's where the big improvements will lie regardless of where they finish statistically, imo
is JPP 14% or more better than he was last year
is Vernon 14% or more better than Ayres
is Snacks 14% or more better than Hankins was last year
is Hankins 14% or more better than Tackle rotation last year
is jack rabbit 14% or more better than prince
is collins going to make a 14% improvement
you would think that even if we put Goodson in the second safety is at least 14% improved
DRC - no net change/is having Eli as backup - 14% improvement?
are linebackers improved 14% with Robinson, Sheppard and Goodson?
And that is just about what I would expect from the infusion of talent in free agency and the draft. Defensive and offensive rankings are important. Look at last season: a top 10 offense and the worst defense was worth 6 wins. There is a correlation, wins don't fall off the back of a truck for a team that can't stop anyone.
Just get off the field on key 3rd downs and don't lose steam in the waning moments of games and we WILL make noise, imv
You know - it's easy to say that -- but if you think about it -- saying if they play the same as last year and just wake up and make a stop they didn't make last year -- sounds good, but makes very little sense.
The idea that all of a sudden they just wake up and make a stop is kind of ridiculous -- there has to be some sort of measurement for improvement overall -- stats work very well for that in this instance
for instance - the Giants gave up 47% of the 3rd downs they tried to stop last year - it was apparently when teams were just marching down the field at will against them --
doesn't it make it seem like a more probable idea if you look at it as a percentage of improvement?
As mentioned, there are a lot of variables at work here..... Â
A lot of new faces, which means half of these guys never played together before......
I think Apple was drafted as DRC's replacement(not this year).....he will get into the games in passing situations, and when DRC gets nicked, which we know will happen.....and when it does, who takes Apple's spot iin passing situations?
The safety situation is not resolved yet.....we assume Collins goes to SS, and someone with absolutely no NFL experience, will play FS.....and where is the depth for either position?
The linebackers are trying just to be average......Kennard has this aura about him like JW did, and how did that pan out?.....thus far Kennard has shown nothing, yet there are those on BBI that see him as pro bowl material? Robinson has yet to play a full season....the rest are just limited linebackers.....
Can JPP maintain the same energy he had for 8 games, in 16? How much of a factor will the hand/glove be? Will we see the Hankins of 2015 or 2014?
As for Vernon, he is the wild card of this DL.....I wrote this in another post:
Quote:
There is a big difference
Doomster : 9:13 am : link : reply
between getting 8 or more sacks, and being a force at DE......How many sacks did Ayers have? Would you consider Ayers a force at DE?
We need Vernon to be a force at his position, not a stat machine.....
After re-watching that Dolphin game, I was not impressed with his play......but then again, I wasn't impressed with Suh, either....I think I saw one tackle for neg yardage, and no sacks, for Vernon....and he was going against Flowers, who seemed to be able to handle him...watching him against the Pats, who don't have the greatest OL, but Brady does get rid of the ball quickly, he was meh?
We needed a DE opposite JPP......and we paid big bucks.....how he plays in Spag's system, remains to be seen.....the difference in playing for the Dolphins and the Giants, is the key......he is a young guy with talent.....but his play has to be much better, than what he showed against the Giants, or the Pats, too....the Giants brass must think so, or they wouldn't have invested so much in him.....have to hope they were right.....
All these changes are not necessarily a slam dunk.....JPP and Hankins are playing for contracts, and have better players in the line with them.....guys like Robinson and Kennard have to stay healthy and stay on the field.....Jenkins and DRC should be solid.....but the safety position, is still a big question mark.....Collins should have more confidence and a better understanding of the defense, over last season.....maybe the starting FS is not on this team yet? Otherwise, you are asking a lot from whoever plays it...
I think this defense starts out slow, as Spags tries to keep it as simple as possible, for all the new guys playing together for the first time....then as the season goes on, he will become more exotic.....I see the defense improving as the season progresses....the only problem is depth....we have to avoid serious injuries, or this defense will still have problems.....
This defense will be better, and because of this, this team will make the playoffs....
Yes, they can and should be at least an average defense in 2016. Â
We had bad players play way too many snaps last year and, as a result, were "easy pickings" for any decent OC to attack us. This was exacerbated by the fact that zero pass rush allowed for opposing QBs to go deep into their reads & options to make easy conversions on 3rd down.
Have to presume we added a better player at DE (Vernon), DT (Snacks), and CB (Jenkins and Apple). Slight upgrades or maybe less deficiencies is a better way to say it at LB and Safety.
Barring numerous injuries, if we cannot be average on Defense then we don't know how to get them ready for a game/coach them during it.
It's actually hard to do what the Giants have done on defense. It's hard to be this bad for so long. I think there are probably a bunch of young Giants fans out there now who have no idea what a good Giants defense looks like.
^This. Aside from the fact that there’s no where to go but up from 32nd, the Giants spent a lot on defense in FA and the draft. The talent is there, but how quickly can it mesh and work together is the biggest question.
A key factor will be free safety. If we get reasonable play there Â
that will be big. Our dl should be strong and we have a good group of corners. Our linebackers will be the weakness of the d, but that won't drag it down past 16.
RE: RE: Rarely a fan of stats. Too many variables. Â
Just get off the field on key 3rd downs and don't lose steam in the waning moments of games and we WILL make noise, imv
You know - it's easy to say that -- but if you think about it -- saying if they play the same as last year and just wake up and make a stop they didn't make last year -- sounds good, but makes very little sense.
The idea that all of a sudden they just wake up and make a stop is kind of ridiculous -- there has to be some sort of measurement for improvement overall -- stats work very well for that in this instance
for instance - the Giants gave up 47% of the 3rd downs they tried to stop last year - it was apparently when teams were just marching down the field at will against them --
doesn't it make it seem like a more probable idea if you look at it as a percentage of improvement?
Agree in that were we to replicate what we did last year, we may very well win just two games. 4 games lost on the final play in one season most likely has never happened before imo. Thus to bank on being as close to victory as we were last year with the same awful D, would be beyond wishful thinking, imv
If the offense was able to run the ball, complete first down passes in the middle of the field and force the other team to use their time outs to run down the clock at the end of all those close games last year, the defense might've given up about 500 less yards as they would've been on the field far less minutes when teams were forced to throw long. A couple of running TD's instead of field goals would've helped, too.
since after draft. If we don't its on Spags.
I think with half way decent talent we couldn't stop those
final drives and gave up 60-85 yrds every time. Coaching
had to take some responsibility. No excuses this year.
First time in long time we have top talent on CB.
With Eli and backups at slot and good safties we can
give line time to get to QB..LB will be week point.
We have good depth at MLB..If Robinson can play OLB
we may be ok. Dallas will be test. If we are as good as I
see on paper, I think we can crush them.
It was always my opinion that coach Fewell was the beneficiary of self motivating personnel trained by his predecesor, rather than an innovator and strategist. Therefore when the players were coming up for contracts GM Reese let them go believing that the DC would be able to mold the young talent brought in. That was a colossal mistake, on many levels but the most egregious was his in game adjustments, very passive defensive game plan, and miscasting the talent provided.
Coach Coughlin was a well organized disciplinarian with the capacity to lead and inspire a team but, he had one great flaw his loyalty to his coaches and players superseded performance. Eli Manning has been labeled as inconsistent, low percentage passer but, those same critics forget to take into account that the Offense he commandeered had a low probability of success unless all the skill players had telepathic congruence. Therefore during coach Gilbride's tenure with the Giants the WR had the greatest difficulty acclimating to the Offense. The hiring of coach McAdoo was a complete reversal from high risk/low percentage to low risk/high percentage offense.
Coach Spagnoulo on the other hand came in the 2007 season and took an unmotivated defensive group whose defensive leader was considering retirement and instilled a mindset of playing downhill, attacking the passer while dictating the evolution of the oppositions game plan. That year Kavika Mitchell and Antonio Pierce were the primary additions to the Defense that ended in the top 10. The following year the Defense was first without future HOF Micheal Strahan.
Why the history lesson you may ask? The reason is that when coach Spagnoulo returned he inherited a fragile and thin defensive roster which has been transformed dramatically. Of the opening day starting 11 only 4 are projected to repeat in 2016. Therefore any projections as to the performance of the current Defense is useless. Defense is about attitude, many detractors want to focus on the change in personnel and how it will assimilate? To them I will simply state look at the leadership to gauge performance.
The personnel that DC Spagnoulo is molding is young, impressionable and hungry to embrace the challenges. Performance will dictate the make up of the defensive personnel and by all indications an aggressive strategy is the mandate. The positions coaches outside of Merritt are new with a similar mindset. LB coach McGovern mentored Luke Kuechly at BC, do you think he may have a few ideas how to develop LB's? Last year he coached the Eagles LB's, how did they perform? Why single out the LB? LB play and player development has been atrocious since 2011. I expect a resurgence in LB performance.
This Defense has its principal core players entering their prime with an influx of young talent. A creative DC who is very astute at in game adjustments. A veteran core that is centered and focused. I will say to the faithful, be leery and cautious if you must but, embrace the possibilities and be optimistic. I believe that we will witness the revival of a once long standing tradition of Giants Defense.
Therefore top 10 is not wishful thinking. The DL will be formidable, OO is being compared to a young Tuck. The secondary is talented and with depth. Add proficient LB play you have a very promising Defense. I would point out that there have been few injuries during OTA's which previously was inundated with hamstring and other soft tissue strains.
So many have projected a 8-9 win season. That our Giants are a year away, I on the other hand believe that the time is now. The Giants will win the NFCE with a record of 12-4 or better with both Offense and Defense top 10.
But I'm not that big on metric comparisons, as the only metrics that count are W/L.
And the only thing that gratifies me as much or more than a win is a Giants team that is competitive in very game they play, and that plays it to the best of their ability.
If they do that, the wins will take care of themselves.
RE: The demise of the Defense began Coughlin's choice of DC Â
It was always my opinion that coach Fewell was the beneficiary of self motivating personnel trained by his predecesor, rather than an innovator and strategist. Therefore when the players were coming up for contracts GM Reese let them go believing that the DC would be able to mold the young talent brought in. That was a colossal mistake, on many levels but the most egregious was his in game adjustments, very passive defensive game plan, and miscasting the talent provided.
Coach Coughlin was a well organized disciplinarian with the capacity to lead and inspire a team but, he had one great flaw his loyalty to his coaches and players superseded performance. Eli Manning has been labeled as inconsistent, low percentage passer but, those same critics forget to take into account that the Offense he commandeered had a low probability of success unless all the skill players had telepathic congruence. Therefore during coach Gilbride's tenure with the Giants the WR had the greatest difficulty acclimating to the Offense. The hiring of coach McAdoo was a complete reversal from high risk/low percentage to low risk/high percentage offense.
Coach Spagnoulo on the other hand came in the 2007 season and took an unmotivated defensive group whose defensive leader was considering retirement and instilled a mindset of playing downhill, attacking the passer while dictating the evolution of the oppositions game plan. That year Kavika Mitchell and Antonio Pierce were the primary additions to the Defense that ended in the top 10. The following year the Defense was first without future HOF Micheal Strahan.
Why the history lesson you may ask? The reason is that when coach Spagnoulo returned he inherited a fragile and thin defensive roster which has been transformed dramatically. Of the opening day starting 11 only 4 are projected to repeat in 2016. Therefore any projections as to the performance of the current Defense is useless. Defense is about attitude, many detractors want to focus on the change in personnel and how it will assimilate? To them I will simply state look at the leadership to gauge performance.
The personnel that DC Spagnoulo is molding is young, impressionable and hungry to embrace the challenges. Performance will dictate the make up of the defensive personnel and by all indications an aggressive strategy is the mandate. The positions coaches outside of Merritt are new with a similar mindset. LB coach McGovern mentored Luke Kuechly at BC, do you think he may have a few ideas how to develop LB's? Last year he coached the Eagles LB's, how did they perform? Why single out the LB? LB play and player development has been atrocious since 2011. I expect a resurgence in LB performance.
This Defense has its principal core players entering their prime with an influx of young talent. A creative DC who is very astute at in game adjustments. A veteran core that is centered and focused. I will say to the faithful, be leery and cautious if you must but, embrace the possibilities and be optimistic. I believe that we will witness the revival of a once long standing tradition of Giants Defense.
Therefore top 10 is not wishful thinking. The DL will be formidable, OO is being compared to a young Tuck. The secondary is talented and with depth. Add proficient LB play you have a very promising Defense. I would point out that there have been few injuries during OTA's which previously was inundated with hamstring and other soft tissue strains.
So many have projected a 8-9 win season. That our Giants are a year away, I on the other hand believe that the time is now. The Giants will win the NFCE with a record of 12-4 or better with both Offense and Defense top 10.
True Grit, Big Blue!!
Some very interesting and astute points Makogie - good post!
is excellent. However, the joker in the deck is injuries. If (GOD forbid) one or two goes down, the depth at this point is almost non-existant. The hope is Owa or one or two of the UDFA's can step up.
The defense has everything needed to be "great". Â
We go in with one weakness and that's at Free Safety.
There are a host of in house candidates and in the unlikely event that one decent player doesn't emerge there's money and time to bring in someone competent.
And that's all it should take ...competent.
And modest to few injuries - of course.
The FS problem should not be overstated, all teams go in with problems...all, at least, since the Steelers of Bradshaw that a near all pro at every position in those pre -cap , non free agent days. That are gone, snyonora, muerte.
The skepticism about Vernon is over-stated. He's got good character, good work ethic and most observers was as good as anyone in football over the last half of the season.
Hankins to me is the key and a legitimate question mark.
I think it's fair to judge a defense's potential by the no. of all pro types it potentially has. I see DRC, Janoris, Snacks, Vernon and JPP as most likely to be in that class.
Without Hankins that's five players. Hankins had that great second year and if we want to arbitrarily include him that's six.
Less likely to join that group but still with potential are Collins, Kennard, Apple and Robinson.
Bromley and Odi should provide decent depth up front and be important.
We've had dominant defenses here with great front fours and linebackers that include Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn. If Robinson and Kennard play up to potential this crew is much much better than that. If not, Brinkly, Cassilas, Thomas and company are at least that good.
It's only a little unfair to say that the first positions where you need superb play today to form a superb defense is at Corner and in the front four. And, again, it's not unfair to say that we have all pro type at all six of those positions. Potentially!
They have to "fit", they have to work together, a leader has to emerge and Hankins has to play back to year two. Those things are, I think, more likely than not. And if so, there's no reason this defense can;t soar and considering them as a middle of the pack 16th. or so is severely underestimating them.
A team can turn its fortunes around in the blink of an eye in the NFL via free agency and the draft. Especilally via free agency. We've seen this story before. That's why it's been said so often that every fan of a team starts the years with high hopes.
Then again it can go the other way when teams lose those players through free agency. It's not like it was years ago where you built a team and program based on a five year plan and you see the improvement with each passing season as you build towards hopehpfully a championship run.
I like what the Giants did in free agency and one thing we know for sure that no matter what there standing is at seasons end this defense will certainly be better. It can't get any worse. And like others have said if the Giants had a middle of the road defesne last year they probably make a playoff run. They had the eigth ranked offense in all of football last year and they could be as good or better this year.
I'm with Makogman for the most part. 12-4 may be stretch but 10-6 I can see as a real possibility. Maybe even 11-5.
In the NFL, a focus on that unit at the Spenser of treating the linebacking position as second class citizens, has help contribute to some
Giants defenses that are in contrast to their history.
They just weren't bad, they were historically bad.
I'd shoot for them to be in the Top 10:)
How many times are we going to blow a lead, or refuse to get the other team off of the field when we need the ball back?
2. The LB unit is still a big ?
3. We could use another pass rusher on the DL
The secondary should be improved. I think JJ~PA, but Prince couldn't stay healthy so JJ>PA. Add in Eli Apple and the return of our top FS from last year who were all out injured the entire season, as well as an addition.
The LBers should be improved as well, since all they've really lost is Beason and he couldn't stay healthy either.
So basically, if they can stay healthy, they should be much, much better. Good enough to be a top unit? Depends on how healthy they can stay, and how much the offense puts teams behind (I think a lot).
There are also a lot of older fans who forgot. Defense wins Championships....period.
We lost everyone who built those teams. Dan Reeves began turning the Giants into an AFC team (soft in those days).
Different coaches, different ownership perspective, different general managers. Who was the last defensive head coach the giants employed?
- gave up 31 passing TDs - the league average was 26.3
- gave up 1942 rushing yards - the league average was 1741
- gave up 15 rushing TDs - the league average was 11.4
- gave up 423 completions - the league average was 360
- had 623 passing attempts against them - the league average was 572
- gave up 236 passing first downs - the league average was 196.5
- gave up 104 rushing first downs - the league average was 92.9
14% improvement in these stats -- puts them in the top half of the league
did they do enough to make a 14% improvement
And this completely misses the point. What was important to an '80s 3-4 defense has nothing whatsoever to do with a 4-3 defense playing in the 21st century. How "top notch" were the LBers on the Giants' two Super Bowl championship teams this century. How "top notch" were the DLs and DBs.
- gave up 31 passing TDs - the league average was 26.3
- gave up 1942 rushing yards - the league average was 1741
- gave up 15 rushing TDs - the league average was 11.4
- gave up 423 completions - the league average was 360
- had 623 passing attempts against them - the league average was 572
- gave up 236 passing first downs - the league average was 196.5
- gave up 104 rushing first downs - the league average was 92.9
14% improvement in these stats -- puts them in the top half of the league
did they do enough to make a 14% improvement
And still we were thisclose to 10-6..Again, get off the field at key times and learn to close out games. I believe that's where the big improvements will lie regardless of where they finish statistically, imo
is Vernon 14% or more better than Ayres
is Snacks 14% or more better than Hankins was last year
is Hankins 14% or more better than Tackle rotation last year
is jack rabbit 14% or more better than prince
is collins going to make a 14% improvement
you would think that even if we put Goodson in the second safety is at least 14% improved
DRC - no net change/is having Eli as backup - 14% improvement?
are linebackers improved 14% with Robinson, Sheppard and Goodson?
Spags got some chicken to make salad with.
You know - it's easy to say that -- but if you think about it -- saying if they play the same as last year and just wake up and make a stop they didn't make last year -- sounds good, but makes very little sense.
The idea that all of a sudden they just wake up and make a stop is kind of ridiculous -- there has to be some sort of measurement for improvement overall -- stats work very well for that in this instance
for instance - the Giants gave up 47% of the 3rd downs they tried to stop last year - it was apparently when teams were just marching down the field at will against them --
doesn't it make it seem like a more probable idea if you look at it as a percentage of improvement?
I think Apple was drafted as DRC's replacement(not this year).....he will get into the games in passing situations, and when DRC gets nicked, which we know will happen.....and when it does, who takes Apple's spot iin passing situations?
The safety situation is not resolved yet.....we assume Collins goes to SS, and someone with absolutely no NFL experience, will play FS.....and where is the depth for either position?
The linebackers are trying just to be average......Kennard has this aura about him like JW did, and how did that pan out?.....thus far Kennard has shown nothing, yet there are those on BBI that see him as pro bowl material? Robinson has yet to play a full season....the rest are just limited linebackers.....
Can JPP maintain the same energy he had for 8 games, in 16? How much of a factor will the hand/glove be? Will we see the Hankins of 2015 or 2014?
As for Vernon, he is the wild card of this DL.....I wrote this in another post:
Doomster : 9:13 am : link : reply
between getting 8 or more sacks, and being a force at DE......How many sacks did Ayers have? Would you consider Ayers a force at DE?
We need Vernon to be a force at his position, not a stat machine.....
After re-watching that Dolphin game, I was not impressed with his play......but then again, I wasn't impressed with Suh, either....I think I saw one tackle for neg yardage, and no sacks, for Vernon....and he was going against Flowers, who seemed to be able to handle him...watching him against the Pats, who don't have the greatest OL, but Brady does get rid of the ball quickly, he was meh?
We needed a DE opposite JPP......and we paid big bucks.....how he plays in Spag's system, remains to be seen.....the difference in playing for the Dolphins and the Giants, is the key......he is a young guy with talent.....but his play has to be much better, than what he showed against the Giants, or the Pats, too....the Giants brass must think so, or they wouldn't have invested so much in him.....have to hope they were right.....
All these changes are not necessarily a slam dunk.....JPP and Hankins are playing for contracts, and have better players in the line with them.....guys like Robinson and Kennard have to stay healthy and stay on the field.....Jenkins and DRC should be solid.....but the safety position, is still a big question mark.....Collins should have more confidence and a better understanding of the defense, over last season.....maybe the starting FS is not on this team yet? Otherwise, you are asking a lot from whoever plays it...
I think this defense starts out slow, as Spags tries to keep it as simple as possible, for all the new guys playing together for the first time....then as the season goes on, he will become more exotic.....I see the defense improving as the season progresses....the only problem is depth....we have to avoid serious injuries, or this defense will still have problems.....
This defense will be better, and because of this, this team will make the playoffs....
Have to presume we added a better player at DE (Vernon), DT (Snacks), and CB (Jenkins and Apple). Slight upgrades or maybe less deficiencies is a better way to say it at LB and Safety.
Barring numerous injuries, if we cannot be average on Defense then we don't know how to get them ready for a game/coach them during it.
^This. Aside from the fact that there’s no where to go but up from 32nd, the Giants spent a lot on defense in FA and the draft. The talent is there, but how quickly can it mesh and work together is the biggest question.
Quote:
Just get off the field on key 3rd downs and don't lose steam in the waning moments of games and we WILL make noise, imv
You know - it's easy to say that -- but if you think about it -- saying if they play the same as last year and just wake up and make a stop they didn't make last year -- sounds good, but makes very little sense.
The idea that all of a sudden they just wake up and make a stop is kind of ridiculous -- there has to be some sort of measurement for improvement overall -- stats work very well for that in this instance
for instance - the Giants gave up 47% of the 3rd downs they tried to stop last year - it was apparently when teams were just marching down the field at will against them --
doesn't it make it seem like a more probable idea if you look at it as a percentage of improvement?
Agree in that were we to replicate what we did last year, we may very well win just two games. 4 games lost on the final play in one season most likely has never happened before imo. Thus to bank on being as close to victory as we were last year with the same awful D, would be beyond wishful thinking, imv
1) Expose Kirk Cousins for the mediocre player he is.
2) Stuff the Dallas Cowboys OL back to the stone age.
Bliss...
I think with half way decent talent we couldn't stop those
final drives and gave up 60-85 yrds every time. Coaching
had to take some responsibility. No excuses this year.
First time in long time we have top talent on CB.
With Eli and backups at slot and good safties we can
give line time to get to QB..LB will be week point.
We have good depth at MLB..If Robinson can play OLB
we may be ok. Dallas will be test. If we are as good as I
see on paper, I think we can crush them.
LB- improvements ,if healthy not as terrible as last year, top 15-20
Depth- question mark
S-could be pretty good,could be pretty bad
No reason with those type of talent levels to not be top 10-15. Especially considering our system puts most emphasis on Corner and Dline play.
Coach Coughlin was a well organized disciplinarian with the capacity to lead and inspire a team but, he had one great flaw his loyalty to his coaches and players superseded performance. Eli Manning has been labeled as inconsistent, low percentage passer but, those same critics forget to take into account that the Offense he commandeered had a low probability of success unless all the skill players had telepathic congruence. Therefore during coach Gilbride's tenure with the Giants the WR had the greatest difficulty acclimating to the Offense. The hiring of coach McAdoo was a complete reversal from high risk/low percentage to low risk/high percentage offense.
Coach Spagnoulo on the other hand came in the 2007 season and took an unmotivated defensive group whose defensive leader was considering retirement and instilled a mindset of playing downhill, attacking the passer while dictating the evolution of the oppositions game plan. That year Kavika Mitchell and Antonio Pierce were the primary additions to the Defense that ended in the top 10. The following year the Defense was first without future HOF Micheal Strahan.
Why the history lesson you may ask? The reason is that when coach Spagnoulo returned he inherited a fragile and thin defensive roster which has been transformed dramatically. Of the opening day starting 11 only 4 are projected to repeat in 2016. Therefore any projections as to the performance of the current Defense is useless. Defense is about attitude, many detractors want to focus on the change in personnel and how it will assimilate? To them I will simply state look at the leadership to gauge performance.
The personnel that DC Spagnoulo is molding is young, impressionable and hungry to embrace the challenges. Performance will dictate the make up of the defensive personnel and by all indications an aggressive strategy is the mandate. The positions coaches outside of Merritt are new with a similar mindset. LB coach McGovern mentored Luke Kuechly at BC, do you think he may have a few ideas how to develop LB's? Last year he coached the Eagles LB's, how did they perform? Why single out the LB? LB play and player development has been atrocious since 2011. I expect a resurgence in LB performance.
This Defense has its principal core players entering their prime with an influx of young talent. A creative DC who is very astute at in game adjustments. A veteran core that is centered and focused. I will say to the faithful, be leery and cautious if you must but, embrace the possibilities and be optimistic. I believe that we will witness the revival of a once long standing tradition of Giants Defense.
Therefore top 10 is not wishful thinking. The DL will be formidable, OO is being compared to a young Tuck. The secondary is talented and with depth. Add proficient LB play you have a very promising Defense. I would point out that there have been few injuries during OTA's which previously was inundated with hamstring and other soft tissue strains.
So many have projected a 8-9 win season. That our Giants are a year away, I on the other hand believe that the time is now. The Giants will win the NFCE with a record of 12-4 or better with both Offense and Defense top 10.
True Grit, Big Blue!!
And the only thing that gratifies me as much or more than a win is a Giants team that is competitive in very game they play, and that plays it to the best of their ability.
If they do that, the wins will take care of themselves.
Coach Coughlin was a well organized disciplinarian with the capacity to lead and inspire a team but, he had one great flaw his loyalty to his coaches and players superseded performance. Eli Manning has been labeled as inconsistent, low percentage passer but, those same critics forget to take into account that the Offense he commandeered had a low probability of success unless all the skill players had telepathic congruence. Therefore during coach Gilbride's tenure with the Giants the WR had the greatest difficulty acclimating to the Offense. The hiring of coach McAdoo was a complete reversal from high risk/low percentage to low risk/high percentage offense.
Coach Spagnoulo on the other hand came in the 2007 season and took an unmotivated defensive group whose defensive leader was considering retirement and instilled a mindset of playing downhill, attacking the passer while dictating the evolution of the oppositions game plan. That year Kavika Mitchell and Antonio Pierce were the primary additions to the Defense that ended in the top 10. The following year the Defense was first without future HOF Micheal Strahan.
Why the history lesson you may ask? The reason is that when coach Spagnoulo returned he inherited a fragile and thin defensive roster which has been transformed dramatically. Of the opening day starting 11 only 4 are projected to repeat in 2016. Therefore any projections as to the performance of the current Defense is useless. Defense is about attitude, many detractors want to focus on the change in personnel and how it will assimilate? To them I will simply state look at the leadership to gauge performance.
The personnel that DC Spagnoulo is molding is young, impressionable and hungry to embrace the challenges. Performance will dictate the make up of the defensive personnel and by all indications an aggressive strategy is the mandate. The positions coaches outside of Merritt are new with a similar mindset. LB coach McGovern mentored Luke Kuechly at BC, do you think he may have a few ideas how to develop LB's? Last year he coached the Eagles LB's, how did they perform? Why single out the LB? LB play and player development has been atrocious since 2011. I expect a resurgence in LB performance.
This Defense has its principal core players entering their prime with an influx of young talent. A creative DC who is very astute at in game adjustments. A veteran core that is centered and focused. I will say to the faithful, be leery and cautious if you must but, embrace the possibilities and be optimistic. I believe that we will witness the revival of a once long standing tradition of Giants Defense.
Therefore top 10 is not wishful thinking. The DL will be formidable, OO is being compared to a young Tuck. The secondary is talented and with depth. Add proficient LB play you have a very promising Defense. I would point out that there have been few injuries during OTA's which previously was inundated with hamstring and other soft tissue strains.
So many have projected a 8-9 win season. That our Giants are a year away, I on the other hand believe that the time is now. The Giants will win the NFCE with a record of 12-4 or better with both Offense and Defense top 10.
True Grit, Big Blue!!
Some very interesting and astute points Makogie - good post!
There are a host of in house candidates and in the unlikely event that one decent player doesn't emerge there's money and time to bring in someone competent.
And that's all it should take ...competent.
And modest to few injuries - of course.
The FS problem should not be overstated, all teams go in with problems...all, at least, since the Steelers of Bradshaw that a near all pro at every position in those pre -cap , non free agent days. That are gone, snyonora, muerte.
The skepticism about Vernon is over-stated. He's got good character, good work ethic and most observers was as good as anyone in football over the last half of the season.
Hankins to me is the key and a legitimate question mark.
I think it's fair to judge a defense's potential by the no. of all pro types it potentially has. I see DRC, Janoris, Snacks, Vernon and JPP as most likely to be in that class.
Without Hankins that's five players. Hankins had that great second year and if we want to arbitrarily include him that's six.
Less likely to join that group but still with potential are Collins, Kennard, Apple and Robinson.
Bromley and Odi should provide decent depth up front and be important.
We've had dominant defenses here with great front fours and linebackers that include Reggie Torbor and Chase Blackburn. If Robinson and Kennard play up to potential this crew is much much better than that. If not, Brinkly, Cassilas, Thomas and company are at least that good.
It's only a little unfair to say that the first positions where you need superb play today to form a superb defense is at Corner and in the front four. And, again, it's not unfair to say that we have all pro type at all six of those positions. Potentially!
They have to "fit", they have to work together, a leader has to emerge and Hankins has to play back to year two. Those things are, I think, more likely than not. And if so, there's no reason this defense can;t soar and considering them as a middle of the pack 16th. or so is severely underestimating them.
Then again it can go the other way when teams lose those players through free agency. It's not like it was years ago where you built a team and program based on a five year plan and you see the improvement with each passing season as you build towards hopehpfully a championship run.
I like what the Giants did in free agency and one thing we know for sure that no matter what there standing is at seasons end this defense will certainly be better. It can't get any worse. And like others have said if the Giants had a middle of the road defesne last year they probably make a playoff run. They had the eigth ranked offense in all of football last year and they could be as good or better this year.
I'm with Makogman for the most part. 12-4 may be stretch but 10-6 I can see as a real possibility. Maybe even 11-5.
Giants defenses that are in contrast to their history.
Plus Collins has another year under his belt.
This defense has a tremendous chance to make a massive jump.