I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
I'm sure once in a while you'll see a glimpse of his old self and the 12-year-olds will ooh and aah but trading for a guy like this is just dumb on several levels when you have so few rotation players under contract. He may have value down the road as a bench scorer for a contender - but the Knicks aren't a contender and they're asking him to play big mins.
Well he did it for a three month stretch to end this year....so I wouldnt dismiss it entirely.
RE: If we're citing turnovers as a problem for Lopez, there are plenty of
guys far, far worse than he is. That may be a trick of the eyes.
Ten Ten: I get what you are saying but there were a lot of times guys did not pass him in the ball because of his bad hands. His bad hands are also why he is not a good rebounder.
I like Lopez. He was a very pleasant surprise last year. Overall, he played well. But let's not overvalue a guy who averaged 10 points per game on a 32 win team.
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Wow. well said. Very good post
RE: Why do people keep insisting we don't know Horny's offense?
If you watched any of the games he coached, you know exactly what he is going to do: push the ball up the middle of the court with a guy on each wing and a big man trailing the play who slashes to the basket. That big man will be KP. He is going to get a lot of easy hoops.
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
This isn't a team built like Phoenix. So why would he do the same thing? When asked, he has said he would work with what he has. Everyone that I've read commenting on the hire has said he knows basketball well enough not to be committed to just one style of play.
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Look, there's some value in what you're saying, but there's no player on the Knicks as good as Lillard for Portland, or Lebron, who can carry a team by himself, or Curry and Thompson, who shoot like future hall of famers.
Lopez wasn't the reason Portland was good, and the Warriors can not need a center because they're absolutely packed with talent doing unprecedented things. This isn't a "Let's just be the warriors" situation.
RE: RE: Why do people keep insisting we don't know Horny's offense?
If you watched any of the games he coached, you know exactly what he is going to do: push the ball up the middle of the court with a guy on each wing and a big man trailing the play who slashes to the basket. That big man will be KP. He is going to get a lot of easy hoops.
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
This isn't a team built like Phoenix. So why would he do the same thing? When asked, he has said he would work with what he has. Everyone that I've read commenting on the hire has said he knows basketball well enough not to be committed to just one style of play.
Fair enough. But considering the Knicks only have around 5 or 6 players under contract, I would say the character of the team is still being molded.
And Enzo we get it now you hate the trade how many times are you going to say the exact same thing?
You can't even admit there is upside to this deal... [/quote]
sure there's upside, but it expires at the end of next season. Which makes it nearly meaningless.
We all acknowledge Lopez was better than expected and it would have been great if we kept him. But you have to give up something to get something and they needed his salary to make the money relatively even. Otherwise Knicks would have been sacrificing cap space.
And I totally believe you guys who are saying that the deal could blow up in the Knicks faces, but I think it is worth the risk.
If he has a great year and turns it around you have the inside track to resign him and you have your point guard for the next 4 or 5 years...
If he sucks you let him go and have 35 million to spend in the best point GUARD free agency in years...
The guy is still only 27 and did improve as the season went on, sure there are risks but it's not like this team is a finished product and it can't be improved anymore because of this tradd..
They can still add a lot of pieces to this team to make it better, they also now have 3 picks in next year's draft as well
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
using this logic, should we trade everyone else of value?
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The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Interesting point. So you're saying Lopez is better than Tristan Thompson and on a cheaper contract - so we should trade him for a broken down rental?
But yeah, I get it. All we have to do is get LeBron, only one of the top 2-3 players who ever lived....or maybe the best shooting backcourt in the history of thee league that includes the two-time MVP....and we can win with any random bigs. I like this strategy!
If he has a great year and turns it around you have the inside track to resign him and you have your point guard for the next 4 or 5 years...
you have the inside track to commit major money over 5 years to a guy who hasn't played a full season in 5 years, has had major knee problems, and who requires elite athleticism in order to be effective - and you think this is a good thing?
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If he sucks you let him go and have 35 million to spend in the best point GUARD free agency in years...
but then you also have to fill the giant hole at center you created.
A rookie who's not actually in the NBA yet, a slow-footed forward who had a forgettable season and is always in foul trouble for stupid reason, and Porzingis. That's worse "depth" than the Knicks had at PG last season.
The trade isn't that bad even at its worst and some of you dramatically overrate Lopez.
Sleep it off you're gonna wake up tomorrow and realize we gained a pg and draft pick, didn't lose cap room. Took a shot but very little risk. Team building 101? Phil has been taking the long game approach the entire tenure here and this trade didn't really deviate. Relax.
A rookie who's not actually in the NBA yet, a slow-footed forward who had a forgettable season and is always in foul trouble for stupid reason, and Porzingis. That's worse "depth" than the Knicks had at PG last season.
Free agency also has not even started yet...we have no idea who is going to be on the roster after tomorrow let alone at the start of the season...
I was just stating depending on the route they go in free agency it is not crazy if the knicks done sign a big name center...
They may go the cheap route like many teams do nowadays
RE: RE: RoLo played REALLY well, especially after a
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
using this logic, should we trade everyone else of value?
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The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Interesting point. So you're saying Lopez is better than Tristan Thompson and on a cheaper contract - so we should trade him for a broken down rental?
But yeah, I get it. All we have to do is get LeBron, only one of the top 2-3 players who ever lived....or maybe the best shooting backcourt in the history of thee league that includes the two-time MVP....and we can win with any random bigs. I like this strategy!
The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers combined for ZERO playoff series wins this postseason. The sport has changed... you don't need an elite center (or even a good one) to be a good team. Heck, you don't even need one to be a Championship team (no, Tristan is not a center). The sport has simply changed. You need guards, especially a PG, and wings to win. If trading Lopez makes it easier to bring in the elite wing/backcourt players, then it had to be done. The Knicks had the best (or 2nd best depending on who you read) rim defense in the sport this season and what did it get them?
I think a truly legitimate argument is asking did they get enough in return for him. But the objection to the trade can't be "How are we gonna replace Robin Lopez?".
RE: RE: RE: RoLo played REALLY well, especially after a
The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers combined for ZERO playoff series wins this postseason. The sport has changed... you don't need an elite center (or even a good one) to be a good team. Heck, you don't even need one to be a Championship team (no, Tristan is not a center). The sport has simply changed. You need guards, especially a PG, and wings to win. If trading Lopez makes it easier to bring in the elite wing/backcourt players, then it had to be done. The Knicks had the best (or 2nd best depending on who you read) rim defense in the sport this season and what did it get them?
I think a truly legitimate argument is asking did they get enough in return for him. But the objection to the trade can't be "How are we gonna replace Robin Lopez?".
you say that "they've filled the PG hole for a year" like it's a meaningful accomplishment. It's not.
Yes, it is considering the PG upgrades available in FA were crap this year. And they need significant upgrades at the 1 AND the 2. This COULD be a solid upgrade at one of those two positions, with a slight downgrade at the 5 (to go along with slightly less money as well) potentially.
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You're not supposed to trade assets for a temporary solution if you're not a contender. This is team building 101. The goal should be to max out the value on every single transaction - not patching holes here and there while creating new ones. If the pieces don't necessarily fit right away, be patient.
So what would you have proposed the Knicks do to improve the backcourt? This FA class is underwhelming at best. And this doesn't just patch one hole and create a new one. With a decent 5 (again, that can be had in FA with little production drop-off and a better salary than RoLo) you're actually patching a hole, and not creating a significant one. If it works out with Rose then it works out. If not, then it doesn't.
Again, I would have preferred to keep one of RoLo or Grant, but it didn't work out that way. If Rose plays well, and the Knicks improve with this new setup, then the team looks infinitely more attractive next offseason when it counts.
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or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
Stop being obtuse. Phil has been looking for a penetrating point guard for the last two years. He made a deal for one that could potentially work out, and if it doesn't they have the wiggle room to go in another direction. This isn't Antonio McDyess. It's a short-term gamble, without giving up the long term pieces. Sure, RoLo is on a good contract, but does he have the potential to be a game-changer? Realistically, you've gotta think that the Knicks see Hernangomez as being able to take over RoLo's spot down the road anyway.
Should be another interesting day. Yes Rolo will be missed, but the more I analyze it we had to give it a shot. Grant (no loss here), not my type of player. Future asset? I think not. Well let's see what Phil got today.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: this tweet isn't about Lopez
You're not supposed to trade assets for a temporary solution if you're not a contender. This is team building 101. The goal should be to max out the value on every single transaction - not patching holes here and there while creating new ones. If the pieces don't necessarily fit right away, be patient.
So what would you have proposed the Knicks do to improve the backcourt? This FA class is underwhelming at best. And this doesn't just patch one hole and create a new one. With a decent 5 (again, that can be had in FA with little production drop-off and a better salary than RoLo) you're actually patching a hole, and not creating a significant one. If it works out with Rose then it works out. If not, then it doesn't.
Again, I would have preferred to keep one of RoLo or Grant, but it didn't work out that way. If Rose plays well, and the Knicks improve with this new setup, then the team looks infinitely more attractive next offseason when it counts.
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or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
Stop being obtuse. Phil has been looking for a penetrating point guard for the last two years. He made a deal for one that could potentially work out, and if it doesn't they have the wiggle room to go in another direction. This isn't Antonio McDyess. It's a short-term gamble, without giving up the long term pieces. Sure, RoLo is on a good contract, but does he have the potential to be a game-changer? Realistically, you've gotta think that the Knicks see Hernangomez as being able to take over RoLo's spot down the road anyway.
I dont think we should have done anything much to fix the backcourt. Try to sign a well price FA. Give Grant some run. This season should have been written off. You use your assets to get better in the window when KP will be a star, not to get incrementally better in a hopeless season.
As for whether this is McDyess all over, I dont know why everyone is so happy that this is a short term deal. It just means there is very little upside. Rolo and Grant were two nice long term pieces. Unless Phil is going to get up and say they blew the Grant pick.
Remember Grant was for THJR. I would say plan CAP space is still better than THJR. So how can you say "blew the pick"?
How we got the pick is irrelevant.
Cap space isnt all that great. It's likely to disappoint. Best deal in the NBA is guys on rookie deals. That's why you dont see teams selling off #1s to preserve cap space.
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
3 years absolutely warrants my hyperbole. Gasol is 35 and Noah is a broken down 32. 3 years for Noah at Lopez money might be the most Knicks move of all time. No offense you said
"If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?" similar deal doesn't read to you as a deal "similar" to Lopez and not simply "a shorter deal that is less than Lopez"? If the Knicks gave Noah 3 years "Lopez-like" money I'd be sick. Noah is closer to a "prove it" guy at this point.
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
3 years absolutely warrants my hyperbole. Gasol is 35 and Noah is a broken down 32. 3 years for Noah at Lopez money might be the most Knicks move of all time. No offense you said
"If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?" similar deal doesn't read to you as a deal "similar" to Lopez and not simply "a shorter deal that is less than Lopez"? If the Knicks gave Noah 3 years "Lopez-like" money I'd be sick. Noah is closer to a "prove it" guy at this point.
Read my post again. I said obviously not for 3 years. The hyperbole was in reference to the extra 3M.
My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
In terms of annual salary I'm not going to flip out over giving a guy 1-2-3 million more than ideal but my reaction was more about years. A guy like Noah should not be guaranteed good money at 3 years. I've always liked him but there is a very real chance he's on a real decline. If anything I'd love to see the Knicks sign someone like Noah for 1 year with a team option. For once let's be the ones in the drivers seat.
My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
In terms of annual salary I'm not going to flip out over giving a guy 1-2-3 million more than ideal but my reaction was more about years. A guy like Noah should not be guaranteed good money at 3 years. I've always liked him but there is a very real chance he's on a real decline. If anything I'd love to see the Knicks sign someone like Noah for 1 year with a team option. For once let's be the ones in the drivers seat.
Ahhhh ok, so we're in agreement then. I'd prefer if the Knicks stick to what they did with DWill and Afflalo as far as deal structure. If Willy can develop into a rotational piece, I think he should take over at the 5. In reality the 5 isn't going to be nearly as important for this time so long as KP is on the roster.
So the Knicks have five actual players--Melo, Rose, KP, O'Quinn, and Holiday. I am assuming that the Lopez move makes the signing of Hernangomez much more likely, which would get them to six.
Who else? They need a starting center, starting shooting guard, back-up small forward, back-up point guard, back-up shooting guard. Do they re-sign D-Will at a higher price? I have heard that he would like to return, and he fits with Hornacek's up-tempo approach. Do they have any kind of hold on Early, and do they care? They can make a qualifying offer on Galloway, but I am not sure they will.
Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
bahahaha. Numerous players? You're actually impressed by that?
It has nothing to do with impressed. It's an objective fact.
You want to tell us who these players are and what they're saying? So far, although you seem irritated with other posters, it's unclear what your position is.
He's serviceable, but in no way does he impact a game. His brother, who is not All Pro, badly outplayed him whenever they were paired against each other. If the trade were Rose for Lopez, I'm all in. Grant, on the other hand, may have a future. Supposedly he can't play the triangle, but then why did Jackson trade up to get him? Makes no sense. On a side note, what also made no sense was trading Shump and JR. I'm not sure Jackson has a plan. I think he's simply attempting to get the Knicks to playoffs so that he when he leaves, he can say, I was a smashing success.
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I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
I'm sure once in a while you'll see a glimpse of his old self and the 12-year-olds will ooh and aah but trading for a guy like this is just dumb on several levels when you have so few rotation players under contract. He may have value down the road as a bench scorer for a contender - but the Knicks aren't a contender and they're asking him to play big mins.
Well he did it for a three month stretch to end this year....so I wouldnt dismiss it entirely.
Ten Ten: I get what you are saying but there were a lot of times guys did not pass him in the ball because of his bad hands. His bad hands are also why he is not a good rebounder.
I like Lopez. He was a very pleasant surprise last year. Overall, he played well. But let's not overvalue a guy who averaged 10 points per game on a 32 win team.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Wow. well said. Very good post
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
This isn't a team built like Phoenix. So why would he do the same thing? When asked, he has said he would work with what he has. Everyone that I've read commenting on the hire has said he knows basketball well enough not to be committed to just one style of play.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Look, there's some value in what you're saying, but there's no player on the Knicks as good as Lillard for Portland, or Lebron, who can carry a team by himself, or Curry and Thompson, who shoot like future hall of famers.
Lopez wasn't the reason Portland was good, and the Warriors can not need a center because they're absolutely packed with talent doing unprecedented things. This isn't a "Let's just be the warriors" situation.
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If you watched any of the games he coached, you know exactly what he is going to do: push the ball up the middle of the court with a guy on each wing and a big man trailing the play who slashes to the basket. That big man will be KP. He is going to get a lot of easy hoops.
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
This isn't a team built like Phoenix. So why would he do the same thing? When asked, he has said he would work with what he has. Everyone that I've read commenting on the hire has said he knows basketball well enough not to be committed to just one style of play.
Fair enough. But considering the Knicks only have around 5 or 6 players under contract, I would say the character of the team is still being molded.
You can't even admit there is upside to this deal... [/quote]
sure there's upside, but it expires at the end of next season. Which makes it nearly meaningless.
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And Enzo we get it now you hate the trade how many times are you going to say the exact same thing?
You can't even admit there is upside to this deal...
sure there's upside, but it expires at the end of next season. Which makes it nearly meaningless. [/quote]
dude - you've made clear you hate the trade. How about you pipe down until November or so when we see how it plays out.
And I totally believe you guys who are saying that the deal could blow up in the Knicks faces, but I think it is worth the risk.
If he sucks you let him go and have 35 million to spend in the best point GUARD free agency in years...
The guy is still only 27 and did improve as the season went on, sure there are risks but it's not like this team is a finished product and it can't be improved anymore because of this tradd..
They can still add a lot of pieces to this team to make it better, they also now have 3 picks in next year's draft as well
using this logic, should we trade everyone else of value?
Interesting point. So you're saying Lopez is better than Tristan Thompson and on a cheaper contract - so we should trade him for a broken down rental?
But yeah, I get it. All we have to do is get LeBron, only one of the top 2-3 players who ever lived....or maybe the best shooting backcourt in the history of thee league that includes the two-time MVP....and we can win with any random bigs. I like this strategy!
Per 48
Post A/S 31.0 7.9 5.4 4.4 .524 .483 4.4
MVP Year 32.1 9.9 5.2 4.4 .445 .332 8.8
Grant you can argue is the only future asset they gave up
you have the inside track to commit major money over 5 years to a guy who hasn't played a full season in 5 years, has had major knee problems, and who requires elite athleticism in order to be effective - and you think this is a good thing?
but then you also have to fill the giant hole at center you created.
Pts Ast Reb TO FG% FT% FTA
Post A/S 31.0 7.9 5.4 4.4 .524 .483 4.4
MVP Year 32.1 9.9 5.2 4.4 .445 .332 8.8
If you want Pau as a replacement, fine, but be aware that he's not a good defensive player these days, and he's very old.
And have you watched the nba recently? The center position is starting to become the 3rd forward position...
Really no need to spend big bucks on the center position
A rookie who's not actually in the NBA yet, a slow-footed forward who had a forgettable season and is always in foul trouble for stupid reason, and Porzingis. That's worse "depth" than the Knicks had at PG last season.
And have you watched the nba recently? The center position is starting to become the 3rd forward position...
Really no need to spend big bucks on the center position
exactly. Plus we will probably sign someone.
Enzo, no disrespect but chill for a bit and see what else happens. Knicks only have 5 players on their roster. Further moves are def gonna happen.
Sleep it off you're gonna wake up tomorrow and realize we gained a pg and draft pick, didn't lose cap room. Took a shot but very little risk. Team building 101? Phil has been taking the long game approach the entire tenure here and this trade didn't really deviate. Relax.
A rookie who's not actually in the NBA yet, a slow-footed forward who had a forgettable season and is always in foul trouble for stupid reason, and Porzingis. That's worse "depth" than the Knicks had at PG last season.
Free agency also has not even started yet...we have no idea who is going to be on the roster after tomorrow let alone at the start of the season...
I was just stating depending on the route they go in free agency it is not crazy if the knicks done sign a big name center...
They may go the cheap route like many teams do nowadays
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slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
using this logic, should we trade everyone else of value?
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The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Interesting point. So you're saying Lopez is better than Tristan Thompson and on a cheaper contract - so we should trade him for a broken down rental?
But yeah, I get it. All we have to do is get LeBron, only one of the top 2-3 players who ever lived....or maybe the best shooting backcourt in the history of thee league that includes the two-time MVP....and we can win with any random bigs. I like this strategy!
The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers combined for ZERO playoff series wins this postseason. The sport has changed... you don't need an elite center (or even a good one) to be a good team. Heck, you don't even need one to be a Championship team (no, Tristan is not a center). The sport has simply changed. You need guards, especially a PG, and wings to win. If trading Lopez makes it easier to bring in the elite wing/backcourt players, then it had to be done. The Knicks had the best (or 2nd best depending on who you read) rim defense in the sport this season and what did it get them?
I think a truly legitimate argument is asking did they get enough in return for him. But the objection to the trade can't be "How are we gonna replace Robin Lopez?".
The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers combined for ZERO playoff series wins this postseason. The sport has changed... you don't need an elite center (or even a good one) to be a good team. Heck, you don't even need one to be a Championship team (no, Tristan is not a center). The sport has simply changed. You need guards, especially a PG, and wings to win. If trading Lopez makes it easier to bring in the elite wing/backcourt players, then it had to be done. The Knicks had the best (or 2nd best depending on who you read) rim defense in the sport this season and what did it get them?
I think a truly legitimate argument is asking did they get enough in return for him. But the objection to the trade can't be "How are we gonna replace Robin Lopez?".
Well said.
Yes, it is considering the PG upgrades available in FA were crap this year. And they need significant upgrades at the 1 AND the 2. This COULD be a solid upgrade at one of those two positions, with a slight downgrade at the 5 (to go along with slightly less money as well) potentially.
So what would you have proposed the Knicks do to improve the backcourt? This FA class is underwhelming at best. And this doesn't just patch one hole and create a new one. With a decent 5 (again, that can be had in FA with little production drop-off and a better salary than RoLo) you're actually patching a hole, and not creating a significant one. If it works out with Rose then it works out. If not, then it doesn't.
Again, I would have preferred to keep one of RoLo or Grant, but it didn't work out that way. If Rose plays well, and the Knicks improve with this new setup, then the team looks infinitely more attractive next offseason when it counts.
Stop being obtuse. Phil has been looking for a penetrating point guard for the last two years. He made a deal for one that could potentially work out, and if it doesn't they have the wiggle room to go in another direction. This isn't Antonio McDyess. It's a short-term gamble, without giving up the long term pieces. Sure, RoLo is on a good contract, but does he have the potential to be a game-changer? Realistically, you've gotta think that the Knicks see Hernangomez as being able to take over RoLo's spot down the road anyway.
So what would you have proposed the Knicks do to improve the backcourt? This FA class is underwhelming at best. And this doesn't just patch one hole and create a new one. With a decent 5 (again, that can be had in FA with little production drop-off and a better salary than RoLo) you're actually patching a hole, and not creating a significant one. If it works out with Rose then it works out. If not, then it doesn't.
Again, I would have preferred to keep one of RoLo or Grant, but it didn't work out that way. If Rose plays well, and the Knicks improve with this new setup, then the team looks infinitely more attractive next offseason when it counts.
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or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
Stop being obtuse. Phil has been looking for a penetrating point guard for the last two years. He made a deal for one that could potentially work out, and if it doesn't they have the wiggle room to go in another direction. This isn't Antonio McDyess. It's a short-term gamble, without giving up the long term pieces. Sure, RoLo is on a good contract, but does he have the potential to be a game-changer? Realistically, you've gotta think that the Knicks see Hernangomez as being able to take over RoLo's spot down the road anyway.
I dont think we should have done anything much to fix the backcourt. Try to sign a well price FA. Give Grant some run. This season should have been written off. You use your assets to get better in the window when KP will be a star, not to get incrementally better in a hopeless season.
As for whether this is McDyess all over, I dont know why everyone is so happy that this is a short term deal. It just means there is very little upside. Rolo and Grant were two nice long term pieces. Unless Phil is going to get up and say they blew the Grant pick.
How we got the pick is irrelevant.
Cap space isnt all that great. It's likely to disappoint. Best deal in the NBA is guys on rookie deals. That's why you dont see teams selling off #1s to preserve cap space.
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In comment 13005322 Aspano! said:
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In comment 13005315 Deej said:
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
3 years absolutely warrants my hyperbole. Gasol is 35 and Noah is a broken down 32. 3 years for Noah at Lopez money might be the most Knicks move of all time. No offense you said
"If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?" similar deal doesn't read to you as a deal "similar" to Lopez and not simply "a shorter deal that is less than Lopez"? If the Knicks gave Noah 3 years "Lopez-like" money I'd be sick. Noah is closer to a "prove it" guy at this point.
@StarburyMarbury I AM PEACE STAR Retweeted BlindBoxPodcast
He will be the best point guard the Knicks ever had when it's said and done. I believe this is possible!!!I AM PEACE STAR added,
@StarburyMarbury I AM PEACE STAR Retweeted BlindBoxPodcast
He will be the best point guard the Knicks ever had when it's said and done. I believe this is possible!!!I AM PEACE STAR added,
Who cares what this vaseline eater thinks?
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In comment 13005324 DanMetroMan said:
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In comment 13005322 Aspano! said:
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In comment 13005315 Deej said:
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
3 years absolutely warrants my hyperbole. Gasol is 35 and Noah is a broken down 32. 3 years for Noah at Lopez money might be the most Knicks move of all time. No offense you said
"If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?" similar deal doesn't read to you as a deal "similar" to Lopez and not simply "a shorter deal that is less than Lopez"? If the Knicks gave Noah 3 years "Lopez-like" money I'd be sick. Noah is closer to a "prove it" guy at this point.
Read my post again. I said obviously not for 3 years. The hyperbole was in reference to the extra 3M.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Link - ( New Window )
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
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My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
In terms of annual salary I'm not going to flip out over giving a guy 1-2-3 million more than ideal but my reaction was more about years. A guy like Noah should not be guaranteed good money at 3 years. I've always liked him but there is a very real chance he's on a real decline. If anything I'd love to see the Knicks sign someone like Noah for 1 year with a team option. For once let's be the ones in the drivers seat.
I hope Rose doesn't get hurt getting off the plane.
Do you ever stop shaking your head? The whole SMH thing is dumb.
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In comment 13005734 DanMetroMan said:
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My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
In terms of annual salary I'm not going to flip out over giving a guy 1-2-3 million more than ideal but my reaction was more about years. A guy like Noah should not be guaranteed good money at 3 years. I've always liked him but there is a very real chance he's on a real decline. If anything I'd love to see the Knicks sign someone like Noah for 1 year with a team option. For once let's be the ones in the drivers seat.
Ahhhh ok, so we're in agreement then. I'd prefer if the Knicks stick to what they did with DWill and Afflalo as far as deal structure. If Willy can develop into a rotational piece, I think he should take over at the 5. In reality the 5 isn't going to be nearly as important for this time so long as KP is on the roster.
Who else? They need a starting center, starting shooting guard, back-up small forward, back-up point guard, back-up shooting guard. Do they re-sign D-Will at a higher price? I have heard that he would like to return, and he fits with Hornacek's up-tempo approach. Do they have any kind of hold on Early, and do they care? They can make a qualifying offer on Galloway, but I am not sure they will.
Thoughts?
This seems to be mostly about 2017 anyway. Is it?
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In comment 13005172 Jon in NYC said:
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Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
bahahaha. Numerous players? You're actually impressed by that?
It has nothing to do with impressed. It's an objective fact.
You want to tell us who these players are and what they're saying? So far, although you seem irritated with other posters, it's unclear what your position is.
Weird. I want Chris Childs flashbacks.
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.
Weird. I want Chris Childs flashbacks.
Fuck that.. I'd rather he honor the great Mardy Collins.
Big shoes to fill.
(This is what we're reduced to as Knicks fans.)
Big shoes to fill.
How about #25 Bill Cartwright? He was a 1st round pick who netted the Oak Tree in a trade.