Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Sources: The Bulls and Knicks are in advanced discussions on Derrick Rose-Robin Lopez deal that involves guard Justin Holiday to New York.
Adrian Wojnarowski @WojVerticalNBA
Knicks and Bulls are in advanced talks on a deal to send Derrick Rose to New York, sources tell @ShamsCharania and me.
Adrian Wojnarowski @WojVerticalNBA
The Bulls are trading Rose to the Knicks for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and bigger package, sources tell @TheVertical
either Grant OR Rolo for that package. Rose was worse than Teague last year and he's fragile as shit.
I'll be absolutely disgusted if this is the trade.
Takes a full year to come back from a knee., especially one, as severe as his. I expect him to be a much improved player.
And how long does it take back to come back from a "this guy's body clearly cant take the pounding of an NBA season and his game is predicated on getting to the hole"?
Are they improved if Rose stays healthy? Probably. But by how much. Plus they key thing I wrote there is IF Rose stays healthy. The evidence this can happen is weak.
We sucked last year. Lopez was ok. Grant & Calderon were terrible. Rose has all star potential. He's only 27. If he stays healthy we are a far better team IMO.
a Bulls fan. I like it from our perspective. So many people here follow the NBA a lot more closely than I do, so I will defer to other opinions. But it seems like the Bulls just gave up on Rose because of his salary and injury history. The Knicks are willing to take a chance because he has been explosive, and his contract expires after this year. Lopez is probably included because I dont think Noah is returning. I leave it to others to discuss Grant and Calderon.
For next year. Would Have loved it if they got a first. They clearly have a big free agent signing lined up for this year since Calderon is in the deal. Getting rid of Calderon isn't a big deal unless you want him off the books
But what did we give up? Jose (garbage), Grant (can't shoot), Rolo was a FA signing. If it opens up CAP space and helps us attract (because of the name) a Big Time Free Agent is it worth it? If Rose is garbage he goes next year.
That this actually increases flexibility going into next offseason.
And a spot just opened up for Willy H.
Rose could tear his ACL in the preseason and this still wouldn't be a huge fail in my mind. I had 16-17 as a wash to begin with. Give me the increased freedom next offseason.
but dont hate it. Look i know we liked Grant but he was pretty bad last year and isnt nearly as young as most players hitting their second year. I really liked Lopez but im not going to cry over losing him. That said i have zero interest in DH still. But they can go for a PF or C now in FA, not sure who that would be that would excite me though. Plus now we will have even more capspace next year.
Rose returns to form and we have to pay him a ton of money next summer to keep him? WTF? Grant and Lopez were not all - stars, but they were rotation players that were cost controlled on reasonable deals going forward. Now we have barely anyone like that.
You see the move Phil pulled off? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaVa6NHwUUg - ( New Window )
Exactly the video that comes to mind. I've watched that video every time I've gotten excited about the Knicks to remind myself that this franchise is a joke.
trade has the highest upside for the Knicks. Rose might return to form. Given his injury history, that is admittedly a big question. But he might, and if he doesnt, hes gone after this season.
Look at what the Bulls got back. Lopez seems serviceable, but he doesnt have the upside of Rose. Those in the know on this board also dont think much of Grant or Calderon. It seems like the Bulls traded Rose and a second round pick for Lopez.
My guess is the trade doesnt produce anything for either team, but it has a better chance of doing so for the Knicks.
id much rather him then DH. Only way i want Dwight is if he is coming for like 2/20 deal (thats 20 total). He can still play but is going to get overpaid based on name.
but that will be must watch TV every game next season if they sign Dwight. You'll never know what you're going to get. Those guys could have huge individual games that lead to wins... or they can all be garbage half the time. Or you'll get to place bets on who gets injured first in any given game. There would always be something to follow with that team.
grant isnt good, calderon is ancient and lopez isnt getting any better
if rose is good then great, if he's not they suck, get a high lotto pick and have a ton of cap room next year
Thought Lopez had a great year and improved his low post scoring. Also disagree a lot about Grant. He was placed in a bad situation. I thought that Horny PnR would be great for him.
That this actually increases flexibility going into next offseason.
And a spot just opened up for Willy H.
Rose could tear his ACL in the preseason and this still wouldn't be a huge fail in my mind. I had 16-17 as a wash to begin with. Give me the increased freedom next offseason.
You could have gotten more flexibility next summer at any time. There's no need to sacrifice Lopez for a broken down player at this point. If you're desperate for cap space next summer flip him for an expiring THEN. Or trade him into space for a late #1 or whatever.
id much rather him then DH. Only way i want Dwight is if he is coming for like 2/20 deal (thats 20 total). He can still play but is going to get overpaid based on name.
Hoford would be huge and awesome - which is exactly why it's not going to happen!
of another one of Phil's "master plans"! Remember how Rose wouldn't go out of his way to help recruit Melo two years ago? Maybe this is how Phil gets Melo to agree to a trade! This is genius!
Grant only got his opportunity after Melo called out Rambis & it was limited at best Lopez was NOT so-so,in fact was a perfect fit for Melo & KP in that he didn't need plays run for him & he picked up the garbage. If Dwight is the apple of Phil's eye, do you think that happens?
when Phil made those comments a few weeks ago about trying to build a contender quickly in a bad Eastern Conference. It was the first time he ever strayed from his standard rebuilding platitudes.
Also, how long will it take for Isola to start harping on the Isiah/Rose Chicago connection?
Rose will ever get back to his old form, but if he can at least flash being a good point guard, it is going to work wonders for Carmelo, who has not had a good point guard in his entire tenure with the Knicks.
Fat Baron Davis, Fat Ray Felton, Toney Douglas, 40 year-old Kidd, 20 games from half-retired Billups, rookie Iman Shumpert, 100 year-old Prigioni, Shane Larkin, 2 weeks of Jeremy Lin, cooked Jose Calderon, and rookie Jerian Grant
If Rose can even be decent, Carmelo will have a much easier time scoring.
I'm not a huge fan of Grant, a guy who just doesn't shoot well enough
to be a starter, imo. But I did like Lopez more than many here.
If we can land a C like Whiteside and then a FA next year, I'd say this was a smart move. Of course, if Rose gets healthy this would be a great move too, but I'm not holding my breath.
We also free up some long term money because of Lopez' contract
Exactly the video that comes to mind. I've watched that video every time I've gotten excited about the Knicks to remind myself that this franchise is a joke.
Are you really that shook up about losing Grant, Lopez and Calderon? Really?
Worst case, Rose sucks and he's gone in a year clearing $21 mil of cap space. Best case, he's another year recovered and a real PG for a change.
I don't see the big downside here. You're worried Grant's going to become an all-star?
Chris Broussard @Chris_Broussard
Source close to Rose tells me he's excited about playing for Knicks. "His 1st choice was New York (if traded). He wants the spotlight.''
The move is fine. I think Rose is done but he's likely still appealing to certain FA, Hornacek has shown an ability to get good play out of PG's, Rose could be a deadline trade chip and the Knicks gave up Lopez (who I like but it's a special talent) and Grant who I have been highly critical of. It's a "meh" move on paper but fine.
trade. Save cap room, get more talent, and a draft pick. If Rose sucks, we don't re-sign him and just saved ourself another 14 mil in a loaded FA class. If he's good, we re-sign him.
Odds of Joakim Noah being a knick are 80+%
RE: We also free up some long term money because of Lopez' contract
IMO, there is a LOT more to this deal than meets the eye.
After the deal, the ONLY players signed past this coming season are Melo, KP and KOQ. The cap is going to bounce to somewhere around $93M.
There are rumors that KOQ is on the block for a 2nd rounder. Let's just assume that's true.
If that's the case, the Knicks have just about $28M committed for 2018. For the sake of argument, let's add 2 max deals to that total- make them $28M each. That's $84M in contracts for 4 star level players. You can fill the remaining 11 spots with role level minimum salary guys and rookies with the remaining $8-10M.
Here's where the interesting part comes.
Let's assume that the Knicks can get Durant. The backcourt becomes Durant, Melo and KP- with Rose at the PG for THIS season. Let's assume also that the Knicks let Rose walk after the season.
Stop for a minute and think about who the #1 PG on the FA market will be then. It will be Westbrook.
Who here thinks that the Knicks would have ANY trouble winning the East with a combo of Durant, Melo, KP and Westbrook- plus 11 role players?
Fat Baron Davis, Fat Ray Felton, Toney Douglas, 40 year-old Kidd, 20 games from half-retired Billups, rookie Iman Shumpert, 100 year-old Prigioni, Shane Larkin, 2 weeks of Jeremy Lin, cooked Jose Calderon, and rookie Jerian Grant
Next to Linsanity, I think the Pablo Prigioni experience was my favorite out of all of that. Just kill me now.
could attract a big time FA, but the problem is there arent really any of them out there. Its basically Durant. We dont need conley anymore and i dont consider Batum a big time FA. Now if somehow this move got Derozan to come here id feel pretty damn good.
IMO, there is a LOT more to this deal than meets the eye.
After the deal, the ONLY players signed past this coming season are Melo, KP and KOQ. The cap is going to bounce to somewhere around $93M.
There are rumors that KOQ is on the block for a 2nd rounder. Let's just assume that's true.
If that's the case, the Knicks have just about $28M committed for 2018. For the sake of argument, let's add 2 max deals to that total- make them $28M each. That's $84M in contracts for 4 star level players. You can fill the remaining 11 spots with role level minimum salary guys and rookies with the remaining $8-10M.
Here's where the interesting part comes.
Let's assume that the Knicks can get Durant. The backcourt becomes Durant, Melo and KP- with Rose at the PG for THIS season. Let's assume also that the Knicks let Rose walk after the season.
Stop for a minute and think about who the #1 PG on the FA market will be then. It will be Westbrook.
Who here thinks that the Knicks would have ANY trouble winning the East with a combo of Durant, Melo, KP and Westbrook- plus 11 role players?
Durant, Melo, KP, and Westbrook not only win the East, they win a title.
By trading Lopez and Grant and assuming they deal KOQ...
I disagree. Next summer will be loaded with good free agents and the Knicks will get a better player than Lopez for that money. Grant isn't a sure thing at all and Lopez is JAG at 14 million until 2019.
has a trick up his sleeve. He has done a pretty solid job overall. He may know he can get a FA or two (i feel like this is DH though). I dont think he just makes this move without some other dominoes ready to fall. Just my opinion. Im trying to trust Phil instead of going to my default memories of Isiah, Layden, etc....
talking about the cap space that was opened up for next year. The WHOLE DAMN LEAGUE has or will have significant cap space. Productive players on reasonable deals are going to be MORE valuable than cap space going forward. We had precious few of those players, and now we have even less of them. And what did we get in return? A broken down headcase who even when he was good couldn't shoot. And if this guy somehow returns to form, we get to either pay him a ton of money next summer or watch him walk away for nothing.
I disagree. Next summer will be loaded with good free agents and the Knicks will get a better player than Lopez for that money. Grant isn't a sure thing at all and Lopez is JAG at 14 million until 2019.
And if you can get good free agents to sign, you'll have no problem moving Rolo and Grant to create cap space. There is no need to create cap space a year out. We've made that mistake before.
I'm not sure how you can kill the trade... they really didn't give up
I hate the possible domino effect of adding Howard. I've argued many times on Knicks threads that the best way to improve the backcourt this summer was to sign a big and move Lopez for a guard while his value is at its highest. Well, here we are. I was just hoping the big we signed was Horford or Whiteside, not Howard. So we'll see what happens.
every time he has 2 nickels to rub together. Or the guy who pushes all in whenever he gets an unpaired ace.
There is literally never any patience with this team. No concepts of team building. It's disgusting.
sold low on Chandler, pointless moves for AA, Williams last summer, and now this crap. There's nobody in this front office that has any idea of how to build a roster.
Jimmy Butler was on Simmons podcast recently. Talked a lot about Rose how he was working so hard and just had bad luck. Had said he thought he'd finally really return this next year. Obviously, this felt like an optimistic friend, but still...
IMO, there is a LOT more to this deal than meets the eye.
After the deal, the ONLY players signed past this coming season are Melo, KP and KOQ. The cap is going to bounce to somewhere around $93M.
There are rumors that KOQ is on the block for a 2nd rounder. Let's just assume that's true.
If that's the case, the Knicks have just about $28M committed for 2018. For the sake of argument, let's add 2 max deals to that total- make them $28M each. That's $84M in contracts for 4 star level players. You can fill the remaining 11 spots with role level minimum salary guys and rookies with the remaining $8-10M.
Here's where the interesting part comes.
Let's assume that the Knicks can get Durant. The backcourt becomes Durant, Melo and KP- with Rose at the PG for THIS season. Let's assume also that the Knicks let Rose walk after the season.
Stop for a minute and think about who the #1 PG on the FA market will be then. It will be Westbrook.
Who here thinks that the Knicks would have ANY trouble winning the East with a combo of Durant, Melo, KP and Westbrook- plus 11 role players?
Jimmy Butler was on Simmons podcast recently. Talked a lot about Rose how he was working so hard and just had bad luck. Had said he thought he'd finally really return this next year. Obviously, this felt like an optimistic friend, but still...
They dont get along at all. Butler was going out of his way to not criticize any player in the league.
Jimmy Butler was on Simmons podcast recently. Talked a lot about Rose how he was working so hard and just had bad luck. Had said he thought he'd finally really return this next year. Obviously, this felt like an optimistic friend, but still...
Wow reports of Rose's teammates saying he's working hard after an injury plagued season? Stop the presses!
as the knicks usual quick fix type deals. Rose isnt signed for like 4 years and we didnt give away the farm to get him. Look i liked the Grant pick, but i think we would all be thrilled if he become a solid starting PG. He doesnt have the skills to be anything more then that. Odds are he settles in as a good backup. And i really liked Lopez, but he is not a guy you cant replace. Im on the fence with the trade, but I dont get why some are screaming how horrible it is like we just traded a top 5 pick, Grant, and a future first to get Rose. This is not a trade that sacrificed our future like the trades they usually make.
RE: RE: I'm not sure how you can kill the trade... they really didn't give up
anything except RoLo. I was almost expecting to see some distant future 1st round pick included, but thankfully, that didn't happen.
Grant? How is anyone missing out on that little tidbit.
If Grant showed anything this past season, they wouldn't have traded him the first place. Maybe he develops into a starting caliber player, but that's a big enough of a question that I won't lose sleep over trading him.
just 40 minutes ago I was suggesting ways to dump Lopez if we were certain we had a shot at Whiteside. I'm salty because we have no certainty on any FAs and mainly because we gave up Grant. I'm not sure I would've done Grant for Rose straight up.
these assholes trade in the KP chip. Hey, Melo and Rose arent getting any younger!
No way. Forget his BB value. He has young star power that generates money for MSG and the league. I think Silver would even step in on that one waving his hands.
as the knicks usual quick fix type deals. Rose isnt signed for like 4 years and we didnt give away the farm to get him. Look i liked the Grant pick, but i think we would all be thrilled if he become a solid starting PG. He doesnt have the skills to be anything more then that. Odds are he settles in as a good backup. And i really liked Lopez, but he is not a guy you cant replace. Im on the fence with the trade, but I dont get why some are screaming how horrible it is like we just traded a top 5 pick, Grant, and a future first to get Rose. This is not a trade that sacrificed our future like the trades they usually make.
This is 100% a quick fix deal. We had Lopez locked into a FANTASTIC deal going forward. Howard and Whiteside will cost $20M+.
What's the upside with this? If Rose is amazing we will have to dole out $100M to keep him. If not, we just gave up a valuable contract in RoLo and a 1st round pick from last year.
as the knicks usual quick fix type deals. Rose isnt signed for like 4 years and we didnt give away the farm to get him. Look i liked the Grant pick, but i think we would all be thrilled if he become a solid starting PG. He doesnt have the skills to be anything more then that. Odds are he settles in as a good backup. And i really liked Lopez, but he is not a guy you cant replace. Im on the fence with the trade, but I dont get why some are screaming how horrible it is like we just traded a top 5 pick, Grant, and a future first to get Rose. This is not a trade that sacrificed our future like the trades they usually make.
Because Rome isnt built in a day, but if you rip down the foundation every night, you make no progress.
What is the historical precedent for trading valuable assets (IMO 2 of the Knicks 4 valuable assets excluding picks) for a guy who cant stay healthy like Rose? Which recent champ built a team that way.
as the knicks usual quick fix type deals. Rose isnt signed for like 4 years and we didnt give away the farm to get him. Look i liked the Grant pick, but i think we would all be thrilled if he become a solid starting PG. He doesnt have the skills to be anything more then that. Odds are he settles in as a good backup. And i really liked Lopez, but he is not a guy you cant replace. Im on the fence with the trade, but I dont get why some are screaming how horrible it is like we just traded a top 5 pick, Grant, and a future first to get Rose. This is not a trade that sacrificed our future like the trades they usually make.
I agree with this. I'm not wild about it, but really like the fact that Rose is expiring, so that we have tons of options for 2017. Now, if we land Whiteside I think the combined deals are a coup.
as the knicks usual quick fix type deals. Rose isnt signed for like 4 years and we didnt give away the farm to get him. Look i liked the Grant pick, but i think we would all be thrilled if he become a solid starting PG. He doesnt have the skills to be anything more then that. Odds are he settles in as a good backup. And i really liked Lopez, but he is not a guy you cant replace. Im on the fence with the trade, but I dont get why some are screaming how horrible it is like we just traded a top 5 pick, Grant, and a future first to get Rose. This is not a trade that sacrificed our future like the trades they usually make.
This is 100% a quick fix deal. We had Lopez locked into a FANTASTIC deal going forward. Howard and Whiteside will cost $20M+.
What's the upside with this? If Rose is amazing we will have to dole out $100M to keep him. If not, we just gave up a valuable contract in RoLo and a 1st round pick from last year.
Well, if Rose is "amazing" then they might actually have some meaningful games in April/May. That would be *some* of the upside.
as the knicks usual quick fix type deals. Rose isnt signed for like 4 years and we didnt give away the farm to get him. Look i liked the Grant pick, but i think we would all be thrilled if he become a solid starting PG. He doesnt have the skills to be anything more then that. Odds are he settles in as a good backup. And i really liked Lopez, but he is not a guy you cant replace. Im on the fence with the trade, but I dont get why some are screaming how horrible it is like we just traded a top 5 pick, Grant, and a future first to get Rose. This is not a trade that sacrificed our future like the trades they usually make.
it's not a Curry or McDysse level disaster in the making, but it's indicative of a flawed organizational approach to team building and an inability to properly value your own players. Grant and Lopez are not all-stars, but they had value going forward. They should have been looking to GET guys like that in exchange for taking Rose off their hands.
Chris Broussard @Chris_Broussard
Source close to Rose tells me he's excited about playing for Knicks. "His 1st choice was New York (if traded). He wants the spotlight.''
Oh good, he wants the spotlight to play 40 games in. It's a contract year. The first ache or pain, he's sitting for a week.
He is on a 1 year prove it contract, if he plays like his mvp self you got a steal, of he plays like shit you let him go and you have enough a ton of money to spend...
Coupled with the fact you can still sign a max this year...
This also opens the door for the knicks to use the pitch to durant if he wants to keep playing with westbrook, you sign here and then knicks sign Westbrook next year
He is on a 1 year prove it contract, if he plays like his mvp self you got a steal
but it's only a "steal" for one season. That's not a thing you want to trade assets for (unless maybe you're a contender looking to add one last piece). That's not smart team building.
will be interesting to see where conley and rondo end up
I dont see how any knick fan can be bent out of shape about this.
Do you really think Lopez isnt replaceable? Last year knick fans were clamoring for more minutes for Grant and now he's traded. Maybe the knicks had no faith in him?
They gave up nothing. If it works out great. If not the team is going to have a shit load of cap space next year when the free agency crop is much better.
He is on a 1 year prove it contract, if he plays like his mvp self you got a steal
but it's only a "steal" for one season. That's not a thing you want to trade assets for (unless maybe you're a contender looking to add one last piece). That's not smart team building.
You traded 1 asset in grant and lopez was never part of the future here, he would have been moved probably next off season for a guard or cap space
He is on a 1 year prove it contract, if he plays like his mvp self you got a steal, of he plays like shit you let him go and you have enough a ton of money to spend...
Coupled with the fact you can still sign a max this year...
This also opens the door for the knicks to use the pitch to durant if he wants to keep playing with westbrook, you sign here and then knicks sign Westbrook next year
First, this guy hasn't been healthy for like 4 years.
Second, if he plays like an MVP, it's not a steal. You have to pay him like like an MVP or you're back to square one next season with a hole at PG, and a weakly positioned draft pick.
Third, who's playing center? You created a roster hole while filling a different roster hole.
They would've had lots of money to spend regardless.
I dont see how any knick fan can be bent out of shape about this.
Do you really think Lopez isnt replaceable? Last year knick fans were clamoring for more minutes for Grant and now he's traded. Maybe the knicks had no faith in him?
They gave up nothing. If it works out great. If not the team is going to have a shit load of cap space next year when the free agency crop is much better.
Good gamble for the knicks.
Grant never got a shot because Rambis thought each game was game 7 & he was playing for his job. Kid has the potential to be a very good player..and he's healthy!
Rose is in the future plans. This move was made for 2 reasons.
1.) Get "star power" for a potential "star" FA signing.
2.) Clear cap space for 2017 to get a "Star" FA.
If the Knicks come away with 2 stud FAs in the next 2 years this was the trade everyone will talk about as being the precursor to that. Then you have KP, Melo, and 2 big time FAs. They will at least put themselves in a position to compete for a title.
He is on a 1 year prove it contract, if he plays like his mvp self you got a steal, of he plays like shit you let him go and you have enough a ton of money to spend...
Coupled with the fact you can still sign a max this year...
This also opens the door for the knicks to use the pitch to durant if he wants to keep playing with westbrook, you sign here and then knicks sign Westbrook next year
Theres no upside. Theres no reason to believe they can even get out of the 1st round barring a Durant signing. It would've been BETTER if he was signed for 4 more years at this rate, now you have to give him a new max under the NEW salary cap if you want to keep him...
By all accounts he was healthy and excited to play in summer league, either he got hurt training or knicks have another move, but they just opened up a spot with this trade
I dont see how any knick fan can be bent out of shape about this.
Do you really think Lopez isnt replaceable? Last year knick fans were clamoring for more minutes for Grant and now he's traded. Maybe the knicks had no faith in him?
They gave up nothing. If it works out great. If not the team is going to have a shit load of cap space next year when the free agency crop is much better.
Good gamble for the knicks.
Cautiously optimistic.
Wroten being waived is interesting.
But we still need a center, so I'm excited to see what may be coming next.
Grant never got a shot because Rambis thought each game was game 7 & he was playing for his job. Kid has the potential to be a very good player..and he's healthy!
That is highly presumptuous. I think the only complaint about this deal is what else could RoLo have gotten on the trade market? Otherwise, we're just speculating on what Grant is or could be. I fall into the "I wasn't blown away by anything I saw" camp.
You traded 1 asset in grant and lopez was never part of the future here, he would have been moved probably next off season for a guard or cap space
Lopez was an asset and almost certainly could have been part of the future or used to get something more useful than a broken down PG who will be gone in 12 months.
Fair enough. I don't follow the NBA enough anymore to have an informed opinion. I'll take your word for it. I still like it because there's no long term risk. But I understand your point too.
Grant never got a shot because Rambis thought each game was game 7 & he was playing for his job. Kid has the potential to be a very good player..and he's healthy!
That is highly presumptuous. I think the only complaint about this deal is what else could RoLo have gotten on the trade market? Otherwise, we're just speculating on what Grant is or could be. I fall into the "I wasn't blown away by anything I saw" camp.
you can feel Grant is "just a guy" and still be against including him in a deal like this.
about a score-first point guard with surgically repaired knees and confidence issues who also happens not be a dead-eye shooter either.
He was an MVP with 3 of the four of those issues.
It just tells you how athleticism dependent Rose's game is. It's the same thing with Westbrook. These guys destroy/ed players through HOF level quicks and hops.
By all accounts he was healthy and excited to play in summer league, either he got hurt training or knicks have another move, but they just opened up a spot with this trade
an ominous tweet by Hahn in regards to this makes it seem like another move;
Alan Hahn @alanhahn 1m1 minute ago
More to come RT @Stuce_: @alanhahn purpose behind waiving wroten?
Hopefully they sign Dwight Howard and we can become Rockets East with two wholly unlikable past their moment stars dominating the show. Also can't wait for Rose's clown brother to be his mouthpiece any time big bro doesn't like something.
By all accounts he was healthy and excited to play in summer league, either he got hurt training or knicks have another move, but they just opened up a spot with this trade
an ominous tweet by Hahn in regards to this makes it seem like another move;
Alan Hahn @alanhahn 1m1 minute ago
More to come RT @Stuce_: @alanhahn purpose behind waiving wroten?
Is FA open?
Like I said earlier, I'd be stunned if Joakim Noah isn't a Knick very shortly.
By all accounts he was healthy and excited to play in summer league, either he got hurt training or knicks have another move, but they just opened up a spot with this trade
an ominous tweet by Hahn in regards to this makes it seem like another move;
Alan Hahn @alanhahn 1m1 minute ago
More to come RT @Stuce_: @alanhahn purpose behind waiving wroten?
or maybe Wroten got a DWI last week or punched his girlfriend. Waiving Wroten likely has nothing to do with any pending moves. We have tons of open spots on the roster.
got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
Grant never got a shot because Rambis thought each game was game 7 & he was playing for his job. Kid has the potential to be a very good player..and he's healthy!
That is highly presumptuous. I think the only complaint about this deal is what else could RoLo have gotten on the trade market? Otherwise, we're just speculating on what Grant is or could be. I fall into the "I wasn't blown away by anything I saw" camp.
Not presumptuous at all Kid was the 19th pick in the first round of last year's NBA draft. So obviously he was held in high esteem as a talent. He was never afforded the opportunity to make mistakes & play through them (until the end when Melo spoke up) Certainly any talent coming into the NBA is about speculation-Remember the speculation on KP? And, i think i said has the potential to be,not is,a very good player!
(who also does basketball) loves the trade for the Bulls (A-), but likes it even more for the Knicks (A+). (He mistakenly lists the Pistons as the other team in the trade.)
got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
(who also does basketball) loves the trade for the Bulls (A-), but likes it even more for the Knicks (A+). (He mistakenly lists the Pistons as the other team in the trade.)
Trade Grades - ( New Window )
seriously? His positives for the Knicks include increased ticket and jersey sales, and he gets the cap information wrong. Why are you posting this crap?
got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Well, you know a lot more about the NBA than I do. As a Bulls fan, I do like the trade and getting Lopez. But for the Knicks they may be about getting a contract they can get rid of after this year, and trading Calderon. If so, then it seems its about cap space for the Knicks. As far as resigning Rose, if he plays well, it will cost a lot to resign him. But I do wonder if his price will be less even then because of his injury history.
have D.Jackson from ND, then Grant. I loved Grant mostly because I'm a ND fan. But, he wasn't very good last year. He's not exactly young either. His upside wasn't that high. He was supposed to come into the league and be ready, he wasn't.
got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Well, you know a lot more about the NBA than I do. As a Bulls fan, I do like the trade and getting Lopez. But for the Knicks they may be about getting a contract they can get rid of after this year, and trading Calderon. If so, then it seems its about cap space for the Knicks. As far as resigning Rose, if he plays well, it will cost a lot to resign him. But I do wonder if his price will be less even then because of his injury history.
FA hasn't started but after trading for Rose, that means they want to be competitive. What else does this team need to be competitive? Well a starting center after this trade. What will a starting center worth a shit cost this summer? Likely $20M a year plus. So indirectly they will actually have LESS cap space because of this trade.
Well the thing is you guysare looking at this as all or none with Rose
Either he's a bust and we gave up assets for nothing, or he returns to his MVP form and we have to pay the max for him next year. Well what if the most likely thing happens and he has a solid year and is an upgrade at pg for us while we sign one of the attractive bigs on the msrket this summer? He then won't cost us nearly that much to keep , (if he wants it dont let the door hit ya...) not saying I love the deal, but its not some unmitigated disaster
Liked Lopez and he was on a pretty good deal for a starting 5. If we land Whiteside I will be fine with the move, if we strike out in FA and settle for some schlep I will be kinda pissed
have D.Jackson from ND, then Grant. I loved Grant mostly because I'm a ND fan. But, he wasn't very good last year. He's not exactly young either. His upside wasn't that high. He was supposed to come into the league and be ready, he wasn't.
I like Jackson too, but I like Gary Payton II more than Jackson and Ulis
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Just yesterday, weren't you saying that the Knicks signing Conley was a bad idea? But it's ok for the Bulls to sign him?
got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Just yesterday, weren't you saying that the Knicks signing Conley was a bad idea? But it's ok for the Bulls to sign him?
Yes completely. The one big thing preventing the Bulls from being actual contenders the last few years was consistent PG play. They have one of the better benches in the league now. Prior to the trade today, the Knicks had 3 actual NBA players on the roster. That actually might be 2 after today. Its a wait and see.
but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
Good point - we'd be griping just as much if they gave a max contract to less than max quality free agent
but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
It's very ignorant to say that he "saves" us $21 mil before FA even starts. If they sign a center for more than a year for a penny more than $13,219,250 then we will have LESS cap space because of this deal.
but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
Oh, yay, cap space. Have you looked around the league? Cap space isnt all that helpful right now. The league is awash in cap space. What is helpful is people on rookie deals and below market contracts. I.e. the stuff we gave up for a year of Rose.
What do we do with a year of Rose? Short of Durant coming here, anyone see us as a title team?
In comment 13005089 mfsd said:
[quote] In comment 13005084 TommyWiseau said:
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In comment 13005075 mfsd said:
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but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
Good point - we'd be griping just as much if they gave a max contract to less than max quality free agent [/quote
there are no perfect fixes in free agency. Only the draft can really create value where a player outperforms his contract. I guess that the Knicks like D Rose and his deal over what's available in FA a PG. I guess they try and reel in a big fish with the promise of D Rose, Melo and KP and then if that fails, bargain hunt.
wishing that every questionable move was step one in some master plan, and it never turns out that way. Not even close. So I'm just taking this move for what it is - a one-year gamble on a talented player, and greater cap flexibility going forward.
That being said, to me it looks like Phil will probably go after Pau on a 1+1 deal, which makes a crap load of sense. Smart, experienced guy at the 5. Phil has compared KP to him when KP was first drafted. And he would also be a great mentor for Willy when he comes over.
Still need a 2, though - would love for them to go after Fournier.
Wasn't he exposed defensively in the playoffs before he got hurt? Some people in Miami claim that he sells out to block a shot to pad his stats . He leaves the middle open to go out and block a shot. Besides He can't pass or hit foul shots. I think he is not the center of the future and he will want a Max deal
As for Howard, he is damaged goods which would be more of a knick type player.
but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
It's very ignorant to say that he "saves" us $21 mil before FA even starts. If they sign a center for more than a year for a penny more than $13,219,250 then we will have LESS cap space because of this deal.
In comment 13005089 mfsd said:
[quote] In comment 13005084 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
In comment 13005075 mfsd said:
Quote:
but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
Good point - we'd be griping just as much if they gave a max contract to less than max quality free agent [/quote
there are no perfect fixes in free agency. Only the draft can really create value where a player outperforms his contract
Hmmm so someone like Jerian Grant?
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I guess that the Knicks like D Rose and his deal over what's available in FA a PG. I guess they try and reel in a big fish with the promise of D Rose, Melo and KP and then if that fails, bargain hunt.
Hmm so like an upper echelon center on a 4 year $52M deal?
but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
It's very ignorant to say that he "saves" us $21 mil before FA even starts. If they sign a center for more than a year for a penny more than $13,219,250 then we will have LESS cap space because of this deal.
The deal saves $14M in a much better FA class.
Again, that's very ignorant before FA starts. Do you think the Knicks front office is gonna be like "lets start O'quinn at center". Or are they gonna be "we gave up a center on a good contract and a rookie for an expiring but promising player, so lets go all in this year". Because if the former is your thought process, why the fuck did they take back Rose, they could've just dumped Lopez for 2nd rounders and tank.
If the latter is your thought process, don't they have to sign a center now to be competitive? If its someone like Pau on a 1+1 deal, i can see that point. But if it's Dwight Howard on a 4 year $120M contract that really wont be the case will it? Either way it's too early to claim which one it is before FA even starts.
wishing that every questionable move was step one in some master plan, and it never turns out that way. Not even close. So I'm just taking this move for what it is - a one-year gamble on a talented player, and greater cap flexibility going forward.
Less flexibility going forward. Before the trade, we had the right to pay Lopez 14-15 million a year, and Grant on a rookie deal. If we didnt want to do that, we could have easily given them away for future assets in return. Easily.
No we dont have that option. All we have is the cap space. So by definition, it is less flexibility.
That's the main issue. But going forward, the Knicks don't need a big-time 5 (if they believe Willy can develop into a rotation piece). They have Porzingis who can play at the 4 or 5. Someone like Pau who can give you 25 minutes a night at the 5 makes a ton of sense, especially as a mentor (and translator) for both Willy and KP.
That's the main issue. But going forward, the Knicks don't need a big-time 5 (if they believe Willy can develop into a rotation piece). They have Porzingis who can play at the 4 or 5. Someone like Pau who can give you 25 minutes a night at the 5 makes a ton of sense, especially as a mentor (and translator) for both Willy and KP.
just because Lopez might not be an ideal fit or need going forward doesn't mean you dump him the first chance you get. Bringing over Wily at say half the cost of Lopez and developing him, while exploring deals that net you something useful for Lopez is sound team building. Throwing Lopez into a deal for a guy the Bulls were clearly desperate to move who's likely gone after next year is a waste of an asset.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
Herring is the same guy touting Tony Wroten as the next westbrook. Wroten has now been cut by the sixers and knicks
We just got done cursing and swearing that the knicks had no defensive center. They get one on a value deal with the bonus of getting more offense than they expected too, and can't wait to throw him out the door.
This organization changes directions so quickly they don't know what's left or right.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
Herring is the same guy touting Tony Wroten as the next westbrook. Wroten has now been cut by the sixers and knicks
I believe it was Berman who made that silly comment.
I'd say it's a lock that we have a commitment from a FA center. They can't possibly risk having KP and Willy taking the lion's share of the minutes at the five.
makes the Knicks a better team than Lopez does. He also provides them with more cap flexibility next year, as well as makes them a more attractive FA destination. It's really that simple.
Super 70s Sports (@Super70sSports)
6 mins ago - View on Twitter
Acquiring Derrick Rose to pair with Carmelo Anthony has given the Knicks the inside track on the 2011 NBA championship.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
The Knicks led the sport in rim defense and they still stunk.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
The Knicks led the sport in rim defense and they still stunk.
This is spot on. KP is the future at the 5
I fail to see how a guy who hasn't played close to a full season in 4
years, and who is in a walk year makes this team a destination for guys looking to sign long term. You are not getting MVP rose. That guy is gone. This is not a "he just had surgery and will be 100%" scenario.
And it's not like this team needed to get worse defensively ether. That will surely help the W-L record.
I'd say it's a lock that we have a commitment from a FA center. They can't possibly risk having KP and Willy taking the lion's share of the minutes at the five.
So long as our plan is to pray to a higher power for health and recovery in Derrick Rose's career, I'm kinda down to experimenting with Kyle O'quinn as our starting center.
I mean, if this move was really about clearing cap space for next season, what harm can that do? If he is really the 15, 12, 3 and 2 his per 36 #s suggest and a 17.5 PER and .103 WS/48 his advanced numbers suggest, why not go for it? In the off chance he does have that type of season as a starter, you have a $3M starting center when the cap explodes to $112M.
makes the Knicks a better team than Lopez does. He also provides them with more cap flexibility next year, as well as makes them a more attractive FA destination. It's really that simple.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
THat is misrepresenting things a little. There's no LeBron James or Curry/Thompson/Green to account for the fact that you have an unconventional roster. The warriors can rely on having a historically efficient offense and a defensive stopper that can guard multiple positions well.
but as usual some people are insane with the over the top hate of this deal. It's not even in the same universe as the McDeyse deal or however you spell his fucking name.
I would have thought Lopez had some decent value but we aren't talking about Brook Lopez here. He's an ok player on an ok deal. Add it up he has OK value.
Grant is the one guy I am nervous about but let's be honest, the guy showed virtually nothing last year and was a 4 year collegiate player. Odds are he's never going to be anything more than a rotation player.
It's a trade that is kinda high on the upside, maybe, and virtually no low side and the Knicks didn't compromise any cap room. I think they actually improved it now and in the long run but could be mistaken.
Relax. This isn't the same old Knicks. Phil has something up his sleeve. If this was the same old Knicks we'd have no cap room and no picks the next 2-3 years. And no KP.
Again, I don't love it. I never liked Rose but it's not a nightmare trade.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
The Knicks led the sport in rim defense and they still stunk.
This also isn't a "do whatever the Warriors are doing" sport either. The Cavs just won a title with Tristan Thompson at the 5. It's not about what position you can play, it's what you can do. TT could switch onto guards successfully while battling with probably the grittiest player in the league on the boards and defense.
Do I have to remind you how the KP vs Draymond match up turned out? One day KP can hopefully get many minutes at the 5 but he's not even CLOSE to being able to handle the big boys in the league regardless of how tough he is right now.
That's the main issue. But going forward, the Knicks don't need a big-time 5 (if they believe Willy can develop into a rotation piece). They have Porzingis who can play at the 4 or 5. Someone like Pau who can give you 25 minutes a night at the 5 makes a ton of sense, especially as a mentor (and translator) for both Willy and KP.
just because Lopez might not be an ideal fit or need going forward doesn't mean you dump him the first chance you get. Bringing over Wily at say half the cost of Lopez and developing him, while exploring deals that net you something useful for Lopez is sound team building. Throwing Lopez into a deal for a guy the Bulls were clearly desperate to move who's likely gone after next year is a waste of an asset.
What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
The Knicks led the sport in rim defense and they still stunk.
well none of what you're saying about centers/rim protection not having value is true - and even if Lopez turned out to be expendable, move him for something useful. Not Rose.
That's the main issue. But going forward, the Knicks don't need a big-time 5 (if they believe Willy can develop into a rotation piece). They have Porzingis who can play at the 4 or 5. Someone like Pau who can give you 25 minutes a night at the 5 makes a ton of sense, especially as a mentor (and translator) for both Willy and KP.
just because Lopez might not be an ideal fit or need going forward doesn't mean you dump him the first chance you get. Bringing over Wily at say half the cost of Lopez and developing him, while exploring deals that net you something useful for Lopez is sound team building. Throwing Lopez into a deal for a guy the Bulls were clearly desperate to move who's likely gone after next year is a waste of an asset.
What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
but as usual some people are insane with the over the top hate of this deal. It's not even in the same universe as the McDeyse deal or however you spell his fucking name.
I would have thought Lopez had some decent value but we aren't talking about Brook Lopez here. He's an ok player on an ok deal. Add it up he has OK value.
Grant is the one guy I am nervous about but let's be honest, the guy showed virtually nothing last year and was a 4 year collegiate player. Odds are he's never going to be anything more than a rotation player.
It's a trade that is kinda high on the upside, maybe, and virtually no low side and the Knicks didn't compromise any cap room. I think they actually improved it now and in the long run but could be mistaken.
Relax. This isn't the same old Knicks. Phil has something up his sleeve. If this was the same old Knicks we'd have no cap room and no picks the next 2-3 years. And no KP.
Again, I don't love it. I never liked Rose but it's not a nightmare trade.
Ok deal?
Lets wait a year and you tell me if Lopez was on an "ok" deal. I'd argue that he's BETTER than brook lopez, because he can actually jump and defend the rim. If he was not a top 10 center he was close to it. Double doubles aren't the most important things about being a center anymore.
D12 is about to make literally double what Lopez is making right now...
Pau isn't exactly known for being a defensive stalwart
What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
yes, it's still a waste. If the Bulls want to gift you a future #2 or highly protected #1 or a decent young player for taking Rose's money off their hands, then it might be something worth doing. But you don't trade them players locked into team friendly deals. And once again, everyone is going to have cap space. It's not going to be nearly as valuable as it used to be. Stop overrating it.
That's the main issue. But going forward, the Knicks don't need a big-time 5 (if they believe Willy can develop into a rotation piece). They have Porzingis who can play at the 4 or 5. Someone like Pau who can give you 25 minutes a night at the 5 makes a ton of sense, especially as a mentor (and translator) for both Willy and KP.
just because Lopez might not be an ideal fit or need going forward doesn't mean you dump him the first chance you get. Bringing over Wily at say half the cost of Lopez and developing him, while exploring deals that net you something useful for Lopez is sound team building. Throwing Lopez into a deal for a guy the Bulls were clearly desperate to move who's likely gone after next year is a waste of an asset.
What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
First we have to wait and see if they actually go for a center on a 1+1 deal. let's not put anything past this team before FA even starts..
Second of all, what do we do about center next year, when the cap jumps up? The best UFA center is ANDREW BOGUT. Or do you want to stick with a 37 year old Pau as part of a title contending second piece. We lost the flexibility of having a starting caliber center on whats going to be a role player type of deal.
that's not the question and it might not even be true. The question is what other moves are/were out there that can help make the Knicks into a sustainable winner.
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He also provides them with more cap flexibility next year
It's been explained a million times why more cap room next year isn't all it's cracked up to be...and even if it was, you could have gotten that flexibility next year if you really needed it.
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as well as makes them a more attractive FA destination.
to Noah? whoop de damn do. As for anyone else, that's pure speculation.
that's not the question and it might not even be true. The question is what other moves are/were out there that can help make the Knicks into a sustainable winner.
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He also provides them with more cap flexibility next year
It's been explained a million times why more cap room next year isn't all it's cracked up to be...and even if it was, you could have gotten that flexibility next year if you really needed it.
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as well as makes them a more attractive FA destination.
to Noah? whoop de damn do. As for anyone else, that's pure speculation.
Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
bahahaha. Numerous players? You're actually impressed by that?
stop pretending like the Knicks having 30 mil in cap space is the same as the TWolves having 30 mil in cap space.
FFS.
Hmm... don't know how to make of this comment. Not being funny. I keep hearing how great the TWolves will be and how no big FA wants to come to the Knicks.
Is NY still a prime target for free agents? Are the TWolves now the team to be on?
Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
bahahaha. Numerous players? You're actually impressed by that?
It has nothing to do with impressed. It's an objective fact.
stop pretending like the Knicks having 30 mil in cap space is the same as the TWolves having 30 mil in cap space.
FFS.
Hmm... don't know how to make of this comment. Not being funny. I keep hearing how great the TWolves will be and how no big FA wants to come to the Knicks.
Is NY still a prime target for free agents? Are the TWolves now the team to be on?
From a pure bball perspective, the TWolves are absolutely the team to be on. But if you want to market yourself and avoid the frozen tundra, you'd have to look elsewhere.
stop pretending like the Knicks having 30 mil in cap space is the same as the TWolves having 30 mil in cap space.
FFS.
Hmm... don't know how to make of this comment. Not being funny. I keep hearing how great the TWolves will be and how no big FA wants to come to the Knicks.
Is NY still a prime target for free agents? Are the TWolves now the team to be on?
From a pure bball perspective, the TWolves are absolutely the team to be on. But if you want to market yourself and avoid the frozen tundra, you'd have to look elsewhere.
Okay got ya. It's kinda of sad of how you had to explain this to me. But this is now the state of the NBA at least if you're a Knicks fan. For years all I ever wanted was cap space to be able to sign big FAs. Now this talk of this not being a good designation is just sad.
What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
yes, it's still a waste. If the Bulls want to gift you a future #2 or highly protected #1 or a decent young player for taking Rose's money off their hands, then it might be something worth doing. But you don't trade them players locked into team friendly deals. And once again, everyone is going to have cap space. It's not going to be nearly as valuable as it used to be. Stop overrating it.
Once again, the advantage of RoLo was that he was a good piece on a very good deal. So yes, you give up some interior defense - but the Knicks had the best interior defense in the league last year (or close to it) and what did it do? It netted them 32 wins.
I'm not even a fan of this deal. I just don't think it's terrible, for the simple reason that if the Knicks sign an aging 5 (Pau or Gasol) - and I only somewhat like this deal contingent on that fact - you give up a little bit on the defensive end, but can potentially get a bit more on the offensive end (passing-wise, shooting-wise if Pau) for roughly the same amount of money (another "if"). And RoLo was only going to get 25-30 min a game anyway, and they obviously think Hernangomez could turn into a rotational piece.
At the same time, you potentially get a HUGE upgrade at the 1, and shore up 1/2 of the biggest weakness on the team, leaving the same amount of money to shore up the other half. And if Rose gets injured again and the Knicks shit the bed? They still have their #1 pick in next year's draft.
But what if Rose actually plays really well, and the Knicks are in the playoffs next year? Next offseason you can resign him, or maybe even have a chance at someone like Westbrook because you've got the room to do so, and you've proven that the team has made significant steps towards being a contender with a capable PG.
at the landscape of our roster, KP can play the 5 for 15 minutes per game, KOQ, Seraphin and/or Willy can play for 20 MPG, and that only leaves 23 MPG left. We can pick up Pau or Noah to do that for us, bang with some big guys, and provide vet leadership for reasonably cheap. That is the move here.
or Batum. I'd actually prefer Fournier because his max is lower and he's younger, and with another big cap jump projected next year his deal becomes even better.
at the landscape of our roster, KP can play the 5 for 15 minutes per game, KOQ, Seraphin and/or Willy can play for 20 MPG, and that only leaves 23 MPG left. We can pick up Pau or Noah to do that for us, bang with some big guys, and provide vet leadership for reasonably cheap. That is the move here.
They certainly "can" play the 5 but if we're in the business of winning now its about creating threats more than figuring out who "has" to play the 5. With Whiteside and KP, you certainly have a size advantage over any team in the league. You have 2 very capable rim protectors and a frontcourt (counting Melo) that can haul in damn near 30 boards a game on their own night in, and night out. If you add Lee or Bazemore, you can compliment the size with shooting as well. Next year, Rose will be off the books and you have the "brand names" you were talking about to entice CP3, Lowry or Westbrook.
RE: RE: can us Bulls fans get a quick scouting report on Grant?
or Batum. I'd actually prefer Fournier because his max is lower and he's younger, and with another big cap jump projected next year his deal becomes even better.
The whole "deal Tobias Harris for absolutely nothing" trade has me thinking they saved $50M in cap space just for this reason.
I know some Knicks fans were... bullish about him, but he always seemed more athlete than bball player to me.
Good defender. Can get to the rim at will. I think has real PG skills -- e.g. knows not just who to pass to, but where to get them the ball. Bad, bad finisher (I think it is lack of strength). Funky shot that needs work but is not what they call "broken".
A few summers in the gym should do him a world of good. Note that I was considered a Grant booster on the threads.
RE: RE: can us Bulls fans get a quick scouting report on Grant?
My concern is what they want to do at SG. There are a ton of subpar options. I like Courtney Lee, Bazemore I guess. There really isn't much out there.
A top 5 center making $25M a year in 2 years will be a pretty darn good bargain.
But you're then spending a whole bunch of money at a position where you don't necessarily need to do so. KP is the #1 asset the team has, and the piece to grow around. His major strength is versatility - he can play as a 4 next to a true center, and at the 5 in "smaller" lineups. Maxing a guy who is in some ways redundant is not a good use of assets. That's why RoLo was such a good deal. Sure, he was a pure 5, but next year and the year after he was being paid as a rotational piece, which he was always going to be next to KP.
A huge contract needs to go to a player who fills a HUGE void. With KP, the 5 is not a huge void. If that means that you bring in a younger player who can develop into a decent rotational piece there (Willy), or an aging vet who is solid and ok with being a rotational piece (Pau/Noah), you do it. Allocate more assets towards bigger holes - the 1 and 2. This move effectively allows you to do that, because Rose requires more money, but he's on a 1 year deal. You still have room to get a lower valued piece at the 5, have more potential with less risk at the 1, and money to improve the 2 as much as possible.
or Batum. I'd actually prefer Fournier because his max is lower and he's younger, and with another big cap jump projected next year his deal becomes even better.
The whole "deal Tobias Harris for absolutely nothing" trade has me thinking they saved $50M in cap space just for this reason.
Would also rather max Whiteside than Fournier
The Tobias Harris deal was a necessity, because Orlando's 2 and 3 are logjammed to the same extent that Philly's 5 is. It's still the case even after the Tobias Harris deal.
Them matching a max for Fournier makes little sense, considering they have Oladipo, Gordon and Hezonja all there. If anything, they'd probably match a max for Fournier only to send him away for a few assets (2nd round picks, low-cost rotational pieces).
My concern is what they want to do at SG. There are a ton of subpar options. I like Courtney Lee, Bazemore I guess. There really isn't much out there.
A top 5 center making $25M a year in 2 years will be a pretty darn good bargain.
But you're then spending a whole bunch of money at a position where you don't necessarily need to do so. KP is the #1 asset the team has, and the piece to grow around. His major strength is versatility - he can play as a 4 next to a true center, and at the 5 in "smaller" lineups. Maxing a guy who is in some ways redundant is not a good use of assets. That's why RoLo was such a good deal. Sure, he was a pure 5, but next year and the year after he was being paid as a rotational piece, which he was always going to be next to KP.
A huge contract needs to go to a player who fills a HUGE void. With KP, the 5 is not a huge void. If that means that you bring in a younger player who can develop into a decent rotational piece there (Willy), or an aging vet who is solid and ok with being a rotational piece (Pau/Noah), you do it. Allocate more assets towards bigger holes - the 1 and 2. This move effectively allows you to do that, because Rose requires more money, but he's on a 1 year deal. You still have room to get a lower valued piece at the 5, have more potential with less risk at the 1, and money to improve the 2 as much as possible.
I disagree. If you really want to compete with the legit teams in the east, I want to be in the business of creating threats, not filling holes. Fournier is a good shooter and may develop into a fine overall scorer (which is why I think he will be matched), don't get me wrong, but come playoff time, there are going to be more halfcourt sets. A front court of KP-Pau is nice but do they really get you over the edge of Cleveland? Not saying Whiteside and KP does, but that gives you a legit concern that forces the other team to game plan around. Maybe even throw 2 bigs. Having say, Courtnee Lee, gives you a relatively cheaper option that helps space the floor and solidifies the defense.
There's no wing defensive stopper on this roster. But forcing Lowry, Lebron, Milsap, etc. to go through KP and Whiteside everytime they drive to the paint gives them something to think about.
KP & Melo with Rose driving. Galloway is ok, cheap and will have wide open threes all day long which he can make. Spend all your cash this year on Whiteside. If not grab Derozen.
Fournier and Harris were the only of those guys not drafted in the top 5. At one point last year they had to bring Oladipo off the bench to accommodate. And mind you, they also resigned Harris to a max contract and then traded him for essentially cap space. If they match a max for Fournier, it's going to be the same thing.
"Because of those injuries, Rose was never the same player. He played in just 51 games in the 2014-15 season, averaging under 18 points a game on just 41 percent shooting. Last year, he stayed relatively healthy (missing just 16 games), but struggled to adapt to new coach Fred Hoiberg's offense. He also reportedly clashed with rising star Jimmy Butler over the last couple years, though both denied any rift. The Bulls slipped to .500 and missed the playoffs.
(We should also note that Rose is currently involved in a sexual assault suit that is currently making its way through the Los Angeles court system)."
Do I get your acknowledgement about being wrong now or later? Link - ( New Window )
we just throwing out the last 2 seasons for Noah going into his age 32 season for some reason? 96 total games played (so missed about 50%) 6.3 and 9.4 43% from the field. This season 38% from the field... he's 6'11
RE: Marbury needs to stop acting like a scorned lover
complains when doesnt get the ball, doesnt play a lick of defense. He is getting older.
IMO, if you are going in with Rose, might as well try for Noah. Hes a guy who rebounds, defends, and doesnt require any touches. Plus he is still an excellent passer (so is Pau though).
we just throwing out the last 2 seasons for Noah going into his age 32 season for some reason? 96 total games played (so missed about 50%) 6.3 and 9.4 43% from the field. This season 38% from the field... he's 6'11
Dont need to him to shoot. Again if healthy.... one of the best passing/defending bigs in the league.
His on-court confidence is fine. He wont admit this but I do think the orbital bone fracture set him back mentally a bit. All offseason, all the stories and all his comments were about not having to rehabilitate an injury for the first time since 2011. Then, less than an hour into the first practice, its here we go again. Granted, its not a knee. But it was still a setback, particularly with the lingering vision issues. I think him ditching the mask is a good sign. And I also think him stringing together games in healthy fashion is also good for him. I would disagree with you that his athletic ability is still there. It may be, but it hasnt been on display much yet. Even in last seasons playoffs, that was a much more dynamic and athletic Rose. So the Bulls have to hope that player is still there and hes just intent on stringing games together without an injury for now and will find another gear. As for calling isos for him, this offense is about reading and reacting to the defense. There are very few set play calls. So its on Rose to push the ball up and be more aggressive. He said in training camp that he believes he can average seven assists per game with this many offensive options. And the pick-and-pop game with Pau Gasol has been consistent for the Bulls. So maybe hes more focused on being a playmaker for now.
Fournier or Crabbe something like 4 years 60 to 65 million
Fill out rest of roster with money left..
Rose
Fournier or Crabbe
Melo
Kp
Gasol or noah
I'm hoping this is the idea. Phil saw how much better the PG market is next year and decided to use his money this year to fill SG and C. We shall see.
we just throwing out the last 2 seasons for Noah going into his age 32 season for some reason? 96 total games played (so missed about 50%) 6.3 and 9.4 43% from the field. This season 38% from the field... he's 6'11
Dont need to him to shoot. Again if healthy.... one of the best passing/defending bigs in the league.
If healthy? He's missed at least 18 games per season EVERY year of his career except 3. He's played 70+ games 3/9 seasons (2 of which were his first 2 in the league)
RE: Marbury needs to stop acting like a scorned lover
when talking about the Knicks. He was vastly overrated and a reason why he went to China.
I can't even imagine why anyone would take the time to ask Marbury this question. How long has it been? How long has he been completely irrelevant? Why would Marburys opinion matter, to anyone on the planet?
The writing has been on the wall in Chicago for months: Trying to keep both Derrick Rose and Jimmy Butler happy in the same backcourt was proving to be an exercise in futility, and Roses injury history, coupled with his increasingly inefficient play, made him the more expendable of Chicagos two max-money guards.
New York clearly sensed an opportunity to acquire a name player who fills a position of major need and was available at a low price.Derrick is one of the top point guards in the NBA who is playoff-battle-tested, new coach Jeff Hornacek claimed in a press release. Thats simply not true.
While Rose, 27, was the 2011 MVP and an All-Star as recently as 2012, his long history of knee issues has left him a shell of his former self. Last season, he managed to play 66 gamesafter playing just 100 combined in the previous four yearsbut he graded out well below average at his position by the major advanced metrics. According to ESPNs Real Plus-Minus, Roses -4.23 RPM ranked No. 81 among 85 point guards, topping only walking disaster Ty Lawson among players who appeared in at least 60 games.
with a guy like Noah, you only want to play him around 66-70 games. He is always going to get banged up. But I think the new NBA is showing that playing 75-80 games is not good for the long run. If monitored properly, he can still be an asset.
with a guy like Noah, you only want to play him around 66-70 games. He is always going to get banged up. But I think the new NBA is showing that playing 75-80 games is not good for the long run. If monitored properly, he can still be an asset.
I want players who can help an "okay" roster make the playoffs and challenge in a series. Not a guy who you "hope" to get 65 games and hope he's healthy enough to play a playoff game. Otherwise what is the point? Adding a bunch of fragile players seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
with a guy like Noah, you only want to play him around 66-70 games. He is always going to get banged up. But I think the new NBA is showing that playing 75-80 games is not good for the long run. If monitored properly, he can still be an asset.
I want players who can help an "okay" roster make the playoffs and challenge in a series. Not a guy who you "hope" to get 65 games and hope he's healthy enough to play a playoff game. Otherwise what is the point? Adding a bunch of fragile players seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
With Rose + a Noah/Batum.... your making the playoffs. And if Noah is healthy then, anything can happen. Again asking Rose and Noah to be healthy is a big risk.... but for 1 year? Why the hell not.
would have a better chance of coming versus Pau. Pau won championships with Phil, would have the chance to mentor a young Spanish C in Willy, and is very familiar with the spacing principles that Hornacek would look to base his offense off of.
Obviously Pau offers you more offense and less chance of injury than Noah, who will offer you more defense. But KP offers a lot of rim protection, and the combination of Gasol and KPs offensive games could make the team more lethal on that side of the court.
Although I'd love Noah just so he could bitch Lebron, who, pussy that he is, decided to take a swipe at the Knicks during the Cleveland parade today.
would have a better chance of coming versus Pau. Pau won championships with Phil, would have the chance to mentor a young Spanish C in Willy, and is very familiar with the spacing principles that Hornacek would look to base his offense off of.
Obviously Pau offers you more offense and less chance of injury than Noah, who will offer you more defense. But KP offers a lot of rim protection, and the combination of Gasol and KPs offensive games could make the team more lethal on that side of the court.
Although I'd love Noah just so he could bitch Lebron, who, pussy that he is, decided to take a swipe at the Knicks during the Cleveland parade today.
I think the assumption is Noah's ties to NYC, sister lives here, went to school here for a bit etc + Rose are why he'd be interested more than Phil Jackson connection.
plan to reach out to Howard. 100% confirmed by someone who would know.
I hope that means for a lot less than the max. If they really wanted him they wouldn't just reach out. They'd offer him the max.
I'm guessing it means to garner potential interest. Howard in the past through "friends" has shown interest in NY. Worth noting McHale thinks Howard is MUCH diminished physically and he would seemingly know.
making a joke but Rose + Howard would really indicate a total move away from the triangle. PG who can't shoot 3's and a 5 who can't shoot and isn't a good passer.
But I don't think bringing in Howard would be a bad move but I'd like to know the contract details. He's still one of the best centers in the NBA and he's better than Lopez. He's weird but that shit can be overstated. The media and fans focus on bullshit like that.
But I feel we need Noah more than a Gasol (for toughness). Then look at the 2.
I just think Noah is falling apart. Gasol still seems like a guy who can win a game by himself once in a while. Gasol was absolutely dominant for Spain in Eurobasket. Guy can still really play.
But I don't think bringing in Howard would be a bad move but I'd like to know the contract details. He's still one of the best centers in the NBA and he's better than Lopez. He's weird but that shit can be overstated. The media and fans focus on bullshit like that.
The only thing working in Howard's favor is I think he will be motivated to prove he can still dominate...
So you would have2 motivated former stars on this team..
I think he fits next to kp but I don't think there is enough shots for him to be happy
We had some great dialogue back and forth, Anthony said of his discussions with Howard. I talked to him. We talked about some things. Ultimately it came down to what I really felt and really wanted at that moment. We had some contact and conversations. He tried. He tried extremely hard. It didnt have anything to do with Dwight or James [Harden]. It came down to my own personal decision.
While Rose, 27, was the 2011 MVP and an All-Star as recently as 2012, his long history of knee issues has left him a shell of his former self. Last season, he managed to play 66 gamesafter playing just 100 combined in the previous four yearsbut he graded out well below average at his position by the major advanced metrics. According to ESPNs Real Plus-Minus, Roses -4.23 RPM ranked No. 81 among 85 point guards, topping only walking disaster Ty Lawson among players who appeared in at least 60 games.
Well, at least he was terrible, but not constantly drunk terrible.
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
Steve Popper
@StevePopper
Robin Lopez is a nice guy in the locker room, solid center, too. But if you can get Westbrook plus x next summer by moving him...yeah.
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
It's a one year prove it deal. Hardly the same as signing someone like Amare to a 5 year max deal.
I don't know why people are up in arms about this trade
it's like people expect to get high upside players for nothing.
Rose has been injured but really came on in the second half of last year and will look great in the pick and roll with KP. Whether or not we sign anyone big I think we are unequivocally more attractive to free agents on the chance that Rose does continue the upward slope to his play that he enjoyed last season. He is a good passer and while not the best defender, anyone is better than Calderon.
Also it's been said but there was no one at PG available in the market we got ourselves cap space and now have a ton of options at center. Phil has shown he gets players at his price on reasonable contracts, all of the FAs last year showed that, who is to say we can't get D12 or Pau on a very reasonable contract?
I'm as pissed off about the years of bad Knicks teams as anyone and yes it's possible this trade doesn't work out well but all trades are gambles and above all I think Phil has more information than us. People were whining about what happened with Chandler but that made room for Lopez who now people are up in arms about. Phil turned Tim Hardaway Jr. into something that was a trade chip.
This might not work out but there is sound probabilistic reasoning behind it, we had the worst back court in the league last year.
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
would Howard come to the Knicks on a "reasonable" deal? He's only 30 and the Knicks even with him are not title contenders. If they want him they almost certainly will be giving him max or close to max. At least Pau is 35 and has legit Knicks connections with Phil.
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
While Rose, 27, was the 2011 MVP and an All-Star as recently as 2012, his long history of knee issues has left him a shell of his former self. Last season, he managed to play 66 gamesafter playing just 100 combined in the previous four yearsbut he graded out well below average at his position by the major advanced metrics. According to ESPNs Real Plus-Minus, Roses -4.23 RPM ranked No. 81 among 85 point guards, topping only walking disaster Ty Lawson among players who appeared in at least 60 games.
but he's a former MVP! He'll do better on the "big stage"! Phil knows what he's doing!
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
It's not even remotely "classic" Knicks. Did they trade a first round pick? THAT is "classic" Knicks. Are they locked into anything long-term? Being handcuffed to guys you can't get rid of is "classic" Knicks. It's debatable whether they could've gotten more for RoLo, but otherwise, they didn't give up a lot and they didn't get roped into any long and stupid contracts. In that sense, I'm not sure how anyone can be vociferously angry about the deal.
would Howard come to the Knicks on a "reasonable" deal? He's only 30 and the Knicks even with him are not title contenders. If they want him they almost certainly will be giving him max or close to max. At least Pau is 35 and has legit Knicks connections with Phil.
This is the thing. We all know that Howard is better than Lopez but not when you factor in a 30 million in salary.
but it sums up one of the big problems with this deal:
Quote:
Russillo @ryenarussillo Jun 21
Teams keep referencing the cap as an obstacle w/ trades. "Why do I want to trade a $7m player knowing it will cost me $14m to replace him?"
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
It's not even remotely "classic" Knicks. Did they trade a first round pick? THAT is "classic" Knicks. Are they locked into anything long-term? Being handcuffed to guys you can't get rid of is "classic" Knicks. It's debatable whether they could've gotten more for RoLo, but otherwise, they didn't give up a lot and they didn't get roped into any long and stupid contracts. In that sense, I'm not sure how anyone can be vociferously angry about the deal.
not every Knick trade is an Eddy Curry like disaster. Sometimes you have mini-fuckups like Steve Francis which ended up costing them Ariza.
Bogut played 12 minutes per game in the Finals before he got hurt. The Cavs just flat-out stopped playing their "center" Channing Frye and Mozgov was nowhere to be found. I don't buy that replacing RoLo is this super-important/expensive thing that needs to be done. I'd love Gasol because he's still well, but spending a lot of money on Howard or some of the other options that have been mentioned isn't necessary.
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
We all should have a lot to talk about this summer. Anyone know why Hahn says in his tweets that since we waived Wroten we will have a pick tomorrow? I'm not sure why but he is saying it.
We all should have a lot to talk about this summer. Anyone know why Hahn says in his tweets that since we waived Wroten we will have a pick tomorrow? I'm not sure why but he is saying it.
He retweeted Ballow who then corrected himself and said the pick was 2017.
not every Knick trade is an Eddy Curry like disaster. Sometimes you have mini-fuckups like Steve Francis which ended up costing them Ariza.
Who's Trevor Ariza in this scenario... Jerian Grant? Someone earlier brought up the Bulls' current roster as the "right way" to build a team. If Grant had shown what Bobby Portis or Mirotic (he's not the best example, I know) showed as rookies, they wouldn't have done this trade. If he'd been a lottery pick like Doug McD., they probably wouldn't have traded him so early. He might turn out to be a really good player... every trade has risks. But I can't fault Phil for moving on this quickly.
but it sums up one of the big problems with this deal:
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Russillo @ryenarussillo Jun 21
Teams keep referencing the cap as an obstacle w/ trades. "Why do I want to trade a $7m player knowing it will cost me $14m to replace him?"
This is a dumb parallel. If the Knicks feel they can sign Noah or Gasol for LESS than what RoLo made, while also developing a young guy who plays the same position (Willy), how is it costing them double to replace him with an admittedly older player with a not-so-steep drop off in production?
Then on top of that, they potentially have a piece that improves one of their biggest weaknesses tenfold. All the while keeping the same cap space, and making more cap space for next year.
This is a dumb parallel. If the Knicks feel they can sign Noah or Gasol for LESS than what RoLo made, while also developing a young guy who plays the same position (Willy), how is it costing them double to replace him with an admittedly older player with a not-so-steep drop off in production?
did I say it was an exact parallel? Holy fuck. The point is that a lot of guys signed under last year's cap are going to be bargains going forward. That obviously wasn't important to Phil.
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Then on top of that, they potentially have a piece that improves one of their biggest weaknesses tenfold. All the while keeping the same cap space, and making more cap space for next year.
Except Rose wasn't good last year. And even if he is he might walk next summer anyway. So you're back to having a gaping hole at the position. Except this time it's worse because you no longer have a former first round pick with some upside who might contribute. But the bright side is that you might get 25 games of Noah...or maybe the decline years of Pau!
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
This is a dumb parallel. If the Knicks feel they can sign Noah or Gasol for LESS than what RoLo made, while also developing a young guy who plays the same position (Willy), how is it costing them double to replace him with an admittedly older player with a not-so-steep drop off in production?
did I say it was an exact parallel? Holy fuck. The point is that a lot of guys signed under last year's cap are going to be bargains going forward. That obviously wasn't important to Phil.
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Then on top of that, they potentially have a piece that improves one of their biggest weaknesses tenfold. All the while keeping the same cap space, and making more cap space for next year.
Except Rose wasn't good last year. And even if he is he might walk next summer anyway. So you're back to having a gaping hole at the position. Except this time it's worse because you no longer have a former first round pick with some upside who might contribute. But the bright side is that you might get 25 games of Noah...or maybe the decline years of Pau!
Right, except now they've filled the PG hole for the next year, instead of being forced to spend a max on a PG when there are limited options available.
This covers up the PG hole until there is a much bigger market at the position. At the end of the day, it's a potential (albeit temporary) solution to the massive hole in the backcourt. And if they sign a stopgap 5 like Gasol while giving Willy time to develop, you mitigate the loss of RoLo somewhat.
I would have preferred to keep Grant and see what he developed into. But the fact that they included him in the deal makes me believe that they were going to try to upgrade at PG regardless.
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
Shumpert with a better shot from 3?
That would be a major coup as a throw in to this deal.
First off, Langston Galloway and Grant played essentially the same position...except Galloway can hit the the 3. So losing Grant isn't that big a deal.
Second, RoLo sucked. I'm sorry, but watching that doofus mishandle the ball, play defense with his hands down and be generally unaware on the court was infuriating.
Rose for a year with a possibility of bringing in a real big man in Howard and then Westbrook after Rose becomes a FA is definitely a decent trade off.
Who is really considering Rose as a long term answer at point?
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
could be a guy. We will see.
Why even respond? Thanks for that groundbreaking analysis.
would Howard come to the Knicks on a "reasonable" deal? He's only 30 and the Knicks even with him are not title contenders. If they want him they almost certainly will be giving him max or close to max. At least Pau is 35 and has legit Knicks connections with Phil.
I think he would for a few reasons. Dwight has always wanted respect and fame and to win in a big market. I think Phil can sell him on that and playing with some other stars. A young big that he can form a great defensive tandem with that doesn't need to be in the paint on O. Also I think we are a good match with Phil, it's pretty clear that teams have soured on him as a person, that makes him a less attractive free agent. If there are teams offering him the max, I don't think they are competitive ones. There is definitely a perception that he isn't a great guy to have in your locker room we can arbitrage that by having someone like Phil that can manage egos like his well.
Also with the cap going up it is possible he might want to prove himself again and sign one last big deal. I could see him signing like 4 years $80M with opt outs every year.
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
could be a guy. We will see.
Why even respond? Thanks for that groundbreaking analysis.
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
Jalen Rose said he's a very good player. Looks like he'll be our backup SG
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
When watching him, he looked like a more athletic Ronnie Brewer. I am really not sold on his 3 point shot.
the impact KP has made on Phil's thinking for team building. Last year he brought in KOQ Lopez Serephin to add pieces around Melo. With KP'a emergence and NOW the future of the team the construction of it has changed. Long term I believe they see Poezingas as a 5 so their thinking will revolve around that. This deal can't be looked at on its own. It has to be seen from the context of the entire off season. Let's see what the team looks like Nov 1 and then maybe pass judgement. I will wait
Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
I think at this point anymore no matter what the Knicks do in the eyes of the media and casual fan that Knicks will have always been on the losing end.
Any other team in the league make the same move, everyone would be talking about what a great move to acquire a former MVP who is in a contract year.
Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
But if this team got Howard in addition to Rise, how can you NOT like the talent on this team? Howard and KriPro in the paint on D is very scary. I am with this. Adding Durant would be a redundancy to Melo. And this wouldn't be guys getting together and stacking a team for themselves. This would be a nice collection of castoffs that might have motivating factors for coming here.
Rose is different than Melo. Howard is different than both. I'm in all of a sudden.
Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
Langston Galloway is the better player than Grant. But both are extremely similar.
Btw, would love the Knicks to draft Bambrey in the 2nd for a little St. Joe's connection. 😉
He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron). 94 career dunks for D Rose.
Westbrook had a career high of 69 this season. 375 dunks for his career.
I remember when this was a debate. I really hope Rose can make it interesting again.
Pretty sure he had a dunk last year against the Knicks. It was a weak backside one in NY. Could be wrong. I don't remember him having any others last year.
If Rose sucks or gets injured, he is gone after the season.
It's likely imo that Phil also signs Gasol. If you say that Melo and Butler are about equal at this point, then the Knicks have basically the core that won 42 games for Bulls last year.
Then throw in that KP is way better than Mitoric (sp?) and KOQ about as good as Taj Gibson, the Knicks should win 45+ and make it to the second round of the playoffs. (obviously, it won't necessarily work out that way but just roll with it for comparison's sake)
If the team is a total bust, then you trade guys at the deadline and blow the whole thing up. Gasol will be a very tradeable commodity. Melo will also bring back some picks.
I don't really see how anyone can say this is a bad trade. Lopez is never going to be worth more than he is now. Grant is a back-up at best. Calderone is addition by subtraction.
Also, this makes Knicks more attractive to free agents. Yeah, they probably won't land a big fish. But if for some reason Durant wants to leave this year, he can now look at the Knicks and say they could be a legit contender with him in the lineup (assuming they sign Gasol)
Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
woj isn't giving analysis here. He's reporting what he's hearing - which is the only thing he's good at.
But if this team got Howard in addition to Rise, how can you NOT like the talent on this team?
because Howard, while still somewhat effective, is a declining player that's going to cost a TON of money to sign - and Rose is currently a bad player that even if he turns around, can leave after next season.
He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Right, except now they've filled the PG hole for the next year, instead of being forced to spend a max on a PG when there are limited options available.
you say that "they've filled the PG hole for a year" like it's a meaningful accomplishment. It's not.
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This covers up the PG hole until there is a much bigger market at the position. At the end of the day, it's a potential (albeit temporary) solution to the massive hole in the backcourt. And if they sign a stopgap 5 like Gasol while giving Willy time to develop, you mitigate the loss of RoLo somewhat.
You're not supposed to trade assets for a temporary solution if you're not a contender. This is team building 101. The goal should be to max out the value on every single transaction - not patching holes here and there while creating new ones. If the pieces don't necessarily fit right away, be patient.
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I would have preferred to keep Grant and see what he developed into. But the fact that they included him in the deal makes me believe that they were going to try to upgrade at PG regardless.
or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Deppers, I don't know if you commented on Holiday at all. What kind of player are the Knicks getting?
But if this team got Howard in addition to Rise, how can you NOT like the talent on this team?
because Howard, while still somewhat effective, is a declining player that's going to cost a TON of money to sign - and Rose is currently a bad player that even if he turns around, can leave after next season.
I agree with that at all. In fact you're wrong Enzo. As you are quite often because you insist on making negatively superlative comments in any discussion you're involved in.
A "bad" player? He's far from that and offers more as a guard than anything we had last year. We only have him a year and then he either walks or we resign him because he was good. He can penetrate and also hit the three.
As far as Howard, he is a trim protector who can finish inside. When did we last have that? And I don't think he'd cost as much as you think
Prior to injury I thought Rose was a tad more explosive than
The only upside is that now other stars might look at the Knicks as a more attractive destination.
I'm convinced that Rose will get hurt and end up playing less than 30 games. I hope I am wrong.
Even if he stays healthy, I am not happy how this will affect KP's development. To have both Melo and DRose, KP might only score on putback dunks. I hope Horny is a better coach than the last few offense-challenged ones we've had.
They are rebuilding but also trying to be competitive. Getting Rose for one year has no longterm implications.
Lopez is a complementary player. In the NBA, you have to secure star players. This makes the Knicks way more attractive to big free agents. We all know--and so does Phil--that the chances are not great of a big fish coming to MSG. But you still have try on the off chance you can reel a guy in. Phil did that with this trade without sacrificing the future. He even secured a second round pick.
So, I agree with you that this trade does not transform the Knicks into contenders but I don't really see much of a downside.
He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Deppers, I don't know if you commented on Holiday at all. What kind of player are the Knicks getting?
In the same mold as a Ronnie Brewer, maybe a tad more athletic. I am not sure on his 3 game though. He did shoot it at a high level, but I was wondering how much came in at garbage time.
Ill say this much, he got a lot of PT and starts at the end of the year when the Bulls were still fighting for a playoff spot. 15-20 minutes per game should be his limit.
I agree with that at all. In fact you're wrong Enzo. As you are quite often because you insist on making negatively superlative comments in any discussion you're involved in.A "bad" player? He's far from that and offers more as a guard than anything we had last year.
stats say he was among the worst PGs in the league last year. What do you have? And saying he's better than what we had last year isn't saying much at all. That shouldn't be the goal.
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We only have him a year and then he either walks or we resign him because he was good. He can penetrate and also hit the three.
he can hit the three? Do you watch basketball? Please go the fuck away.
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As far as Howard, he is a trim protector who can finish inside. When did we last have that? And I don't think he'd cost as much as you think
well Lopez was a damn good rim protector and he was signed on a cheap deal for 3 more years and was in his prime and doesn't have a history of back problems. Howard is on the wrong side of 30 and just opted out of a $22 million salary for next season. Do you really think he's coming cheap?
I'm sorry but you're either really misinformed or stuck in the past or just a fucking idiot.
because he will get a lot more wideopen looks. You can't judge a Point Guard's three point percentage without knowing how many were forced shots because the clock was running down and nobody was open. Given the set offenses in which he was playing, I would guess that a decent amount of his threes were forced.
They are rebuilding but also trying to be competitive. Getting Rose for one year has no longterm implications.
Lopez is a complementary player. In the NBA, you have to secure star players. This makes the Knicks way more attractive to big free agents. We all know--and so does Phil--that the chances are not great of a big fish coming to MSG. But you still have try on the off chance you can reel a guy in. Phil did that with this trade without sacrificing the future. He even secured a second round pick.
So, I agree with you that this trade does not transform the Knicks into contenders but I don't really see much of a downside.
bahahaha to anyone that thinks stars are coming here to play with a broken down Rose.
We have 9 years of data that says Rose won't hit threes.
1. We now have Rose for this season on an expiring deal. Best case - he's healthy and plays his ass off for a new contract. Then we are in good position to sign him for 2018 and beyond. Worst case - he's not the same player, so we can dump him after the season (or mid season to a team looking to clear cap space)
2. We gave up basically some guys. I like Lopez, he's a nice effort guy. With limited upside. Grant may turn out to be a player down the road, but he looked lost this past season. And let's be honest, the Knicks are trying to build a winner for what's left of the Melo era.
Oh yeah, and the Bulls now get the privilege of saving a seat on their bench for the corpse of Jose Calderon.
because he will get a lot more wideopen looks. You can't judge a Point Guard's three point percentage without knowing how many were forced shots because the clock was running down and nobody was open. Given the set offenses in which he was playing, I would guess that a decent amount of his threes were forced.
I didn't realize Hornacek's Knick offense (which nobody knows anything about at this point) will have magical healing powers for guys who are below average three point shooters.
Gasol is the likely target because he knows the triangle. The only stumbling block is if some team offers Gasol more than two years. Cuz Phil is not going to sign a 35 year old to a longterm deal.
I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
If its catch and shoot, he actually isnt horrific. But if he does it off the dribble, its disastorous. Theres games where he will hit 3-4 of them and look great. Then there will be games where he goes 0-6.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6h6 hours ago
Lopez was fantastic fit w KP. 28 & healthy. Thrived as he learned the offense in 2nd half of season. Took burden off budding KP at the 5.
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6h6 hours ago
Probably most important: Lopez's deal -- the one that uninformed fans thought was too expensive -- is incredibly affordable one week from now.
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Mike Kurylo @KnickerBlogger 4h4 hours ago
The person with the most NBA ringz just traded for a scorer that has 1 season with a ts% better than league average and last 3 under 50%.
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Derrick rose last 3 seasons
Games - ts%
10 - 44.6%
51 - 49.3%
66 - 47.9%
I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
completely undersell Rolo's game is painful. The fact is, you would be hard pressed to find a center who can do both ends of the floor as well as Rolo did last year for us for the same amount of money this year. Wait till FA starts but the numbers are going to be a bit ridiculous for most of these guys. Too many teams need to hit cap floors ATM.
Robin Lopez averaged the same amount of blocks as Howard so the idea that he's a way better rim protector isn't true. Offensive Rebounds PG are identical, Howard gets 4 more defensive rebounds per game and almost leads the league in personal fouls per game while shooting terrible from the FT line unlike Rolo (49% versus 79.5%. It's a mixed bag but for the price Rolo was a solid center.
And one thing to look at with the Bulls the last two years....
2 years ago they basically quit on Thibs (due to the fact he spent no time on offense and ran his players to the ground.O And this year with Hoiberg, it was just an utter disaster with Butler wanting to be lead Dog, Rose wanting to be lead dog, the nGasol wanting to be lead dog. Shit load of injuries on everyone.
Melo is going to benefit greatly from him. Ill definitely be rooting for him and the Knicks to have a big year. He deserves it. Ill tell you what the biggest problem with Rose is...... Reggie.
He is what he has been, he gets his points attacking the basket. He's not a particularly effective or efficient shooter, either. He's a prototype slasher who used to have sick athleticism and now does not.
We can talk about this all night, but not if we're going to say things like Hornacek's offense for this team, which nobody knows anything about yet, is going to grant Rose a skill he's never shown the talent for.
Anyone who thinks Lopez was a "fantastic" fit with KP on offense
The two could not play together inside, which is why during the second half of the season KP was mostly outside the circle. Not only that, Lopez fumbles the ball about 50% of the time you pass it to him. He tries hard and is a smart player but his lack of athleticism makes him very limited. That's why he has never played starter's minutes.
I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
I'm sure once in a while you'll see a glimpse of his old self and the 12-year-olds will ooh and aah but trading for a guy like this is just dumb on several levels when you have so few rotation players under contract. He may have value down the road as a bench scorer for a contender - but the Knicks aren't a contender and they're asking him to play big mins.
If you watched any of the games he coached, you know exactly what he is going to do: push the ball up the middle of the court with a guy on each wing and a big man trailing the play who slashes to the basket. That big man will be KP. He is going to get a lot of easy hoops.
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
I'm sure once in a while you'll see a glimpse of his old self and the 12-year-olds will ooh and aah but trading for a guy like this is just dumb on several levels when you have so few rotation players under contract. He may have value down the road as a bench scorer for a contender - but the Knicks aren't a contender and they're asking him to play big mins.
Well he did it for a three month stretch to end this year....so I wouldnt dismiss it entirely.
RE: If we're citing turnovers as a problem for Lopez, there are plenty of
guys far, far worse than he is. That may be a trick of the eyes.
Ten Ten: I get what you are saying but there were a lot of times guys did not pass him in the ball because of his bad hands. His bad hands are also why he is not a good rebounder.
I like Lopez. He was a very pleasant surprise last year. Overall, he played well. But let's not overvalue a guy who averaged 10 points per game on a 32 win team.
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Wow. well said. Very good post
RE: Why do people keep insisting we don't know Horny's offense?
If you watched any of the games he coached, you know exactly what he is going to do: push the ball up the middle of the court with a guy on each wing and a big man trailing the play who slashes to the basket. That big man will be KP. He is going to get a lot of easy hoops.
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
This isn't a team built like Phoenix. So why would he do the same thing? When asked, he has said he would work with what he has. Everyone that I've read commenting on the hire has said he knows basketball well enough not to be committed to just one style of play.
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Look, there's some value in what you're saying, but there's no player on the Knicks as good as Lillard for Portland, or Lebron, who can carry a team by himself, or Curry and Thompson, who shoot like future hall of famers.
Lopez wasn't the reason Portland was good, and the Warriors can not need a center because they're absolutely packed with talent doing unprecedented things. This isn't a "Let's just be the warriors" situation.
RE: RE: Why do people keep insisting we don't know Horny's offense?
If you watched any of the games he coached, you know exactly what he is going to do: push the ball up the middle of the court with a guy on each wing and a big man trailing the play who slashes to the basket. That big man will be KP. He is going to get a lot of easy hoops.
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
This isn't a team built like Phoenix. So why would he do the same thing? When asked, he has said he would work with what he has. Everyone that I've read commenting on the hire has said he knows basketball well enough not to be committed to just one style of play.
Fair enough. But considering the Knicks only have around 5 or 6 players under contract, I would say the character of the team is still being molded.
And Enzo we get it now you hate the trade how many times are you going to say the exact same thing?
You can't even admit there is upside to this deal... [/quote]
sure there's upside, but it expires at the end of next season. Which makes it nearly meaningless.
We all acknowledge Lopez was better than expected and it would have been great if we kept him. But you have to give up something to get something and they needed his salary to make the money relatively even. Otherwise Knicks would have been sacrificing cap space.
And I totally believe you guys who are saying that the deal could blow up in the Knicks faces, but I think it is worth the risk.
If he has a great year and turns it around you have the inside track to resign him and you have your point guard for the next 4 or 5 years...
If he sucks you let him go and have 35 million to spend in the best point GUARD free agency in years...
The guy is still only 27 and did improve as the season went on, sure there are risks but it's not like this team is a finished product and it can't be improved anymore because of this tradd..
They can still add a lot of pieces to this team to make it better, they also now have 3 picks in next year's draft as well
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
using this logic, should we trade everyone else of value?
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The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Interesting point. So you're saying Lopez is better than Tristan Thompson and on a cheaper contract - so we should trade him for a broken down rental?
But yeah, I get it. All we have to do is get LeBron, only one of the top 2-3 players who ever lived....or maybe the best shooting backcourt in the history of thee league that includes the two-time MVP....and we can win with any random bigs. I like this strategy!
If he has a great year and turns it around you have the inside track to resign him and you have your point guard for the next 4 or 5 years...
you have the inside track to commit major money over 5 years to a guy who hasn't played a full season in 5 years, has had major knee problems, and who requires elite athleticism in order to be effective - and you think this is a good thing?
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If he sucks you let him go and have 35 million to spend in the best point GUARD free agency in years...
but then you also have to fill the giant hole at center you created.
A rookie who's not actually in the NBA yet, a slow-footed forward who had a forgettable season and is always in foul trouble for stupid reason, and Porzingis. That's worse "depth" than the Knicks had at PG last season.
The trade isn't that bad even at its worst and some of you dramatically overrate Lopez.
Sleep it off you're gonna wake up tomorrow and realize we gained a pg and draft pick, didn't lose cap room. Took a shot but very little risk. Team building 101? Phil has been taking the long game approach the entire tenure here and this trade didn't really deviate. Relax.
A rookie who's not actually in the NBA yet, a slow-footed forward who had a forgettable season and is always in foul trouble for stupid reason, and Porzingis. That's worse "depth" than the Knicks had at PG last season.
Free agency also has not even started yet...we have no idea who is going to be on the roster after tomorrow let alone at the start of the season...
I was just stating depending on the route they go in free agency it is not crazy if the knicks done sign a big name center...
They may go the cheap route like many teams do nowadays
RE: RE: RoLo played REALLY well, especially after a
slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
using this logic, should we trade everyone else of value?
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The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Interesting point. So you're saying Lopez is better than Tristan Thompson and on a cheaper contract - so we should trade him for a broken down rental?
But yeah, I get it. All we have to do is get LeBron, only one of the top 2-3 players who ever lived....or maybe the best shooting backcourt in the history of thee league that includes the two-time MVP....and we can win with any random bigs. I like this strategy!
The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers combined for ZERO playoff series wins this postseason. The sport has changed... you don't need an elite center (or even a good one) to be a good team. Heck, you don't even need one to be a Championship team (no, Tristan is not a center). The sport has simply changed. You need guards, especially a PG, and wings to win. If trading Lopez makes it easier to bring in the elite wing/backcourt players, then it had to be done. The Knicks had the best (or 2nd best depending on who you read) rim defense in the sport this season and what did it get them?
I think a truly legitimate argument is asking did they get enough in return for him. But the objection to the trade can't be "How are we gonna replace Robin Lopez?".
RE: RE: RE: RoLo played REALLY well, especially after a
The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers combined for ZERO playoff series wins this postseason. The sport has changed... you don't need an elite center (or even a good one) to be a good team. Heck, you don't even need one to be a Championship team (no, Tristan is not a center). The sport has simply changed. You need guards, especially a PG, and wings to win. If trading Lopez makes it easier to bring in the elite wing/backcourt players, then it had to be done. The Knicks had the best (or 2nd best depending on who you read) rim defense in the sport this season and what did it get them?
I think a truly legitimate argument is asking did they get enough in return for him. But the objection to the trade can't be "How are we gonna replace Robin Lopez?".
you say that "they've filled the PG hole for a year" like it's a meaningful accomplishment. It's not.
Yes, it is considering the PG upgrades available in FA were crap this year. And they need significant upgrades at the 1 AND the 2. This COULD be a solid upgrade at one of those two positions, with a slight downgrade at the 5 (to go along with slightly less money as well) potentially.
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You're not supposed to trade assets for a temporary solution if you're not a contender. This is team building 101. The goal should be to max out the value on every single transaction - not patching holes here and there while creating new ones. If the pieces don't necessarily fit right away, be patient.
So what would you have proposed the Knicks do to improve the backcourt? This FA class is underwhelming at best. And this doesn't just patch one hole and create a new one. With a decent 5 (again, that can be had in FA with little production drop-off and a better salary than RoLo) you're actually patching a hole, and not creating a significant one. If it works out with Rose then it works out. If not, then it doesn't.
Again, I would have preferred to keep one of RoLo or Grant, but it didn't work out that way. If Rose plays well, and the Knicks improve with this new setup, then the team looks infinitely more attractive next offseason when it counts.
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or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
Stop being obtuse. Phil has been looking for a penetrating point guard for the last two years. He made a deal for one that could potentially work out, and if it doesn't they have the wiggle room to go in another direction. This isn't Antonio McDyess. It's a short-term gamble, without giving up the long term pieces. Sure, RoLo is on a good contract, but does he have the potential to be a game-changer? Realistically, you've gotta think that the Knicks see Hernangomez as being able to take over RoLo's spot down the road anyway.
Should be another interesting day. Yes Rolo will be missed, but the more I analyze it we had to give it a shot. Grant (no loss here), not my type of player. Future asset? I think not. Well let's see what Phil got today.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: this tweet isn't about Lopez
You're not supposed to trade assets for a temporary solution if you're not a contender. This is team building 101. The goal should be to max out the value on every single transaction - not patching holes here and there while creating new ones. If the pieces don't necessarily fit right away, be patient.
So what would you have proposed the Knicks do to improve the backcourt? This FA class is underwhelming at best. And this doesn't just patch one hole and create a new one. With a decent 5 (again, that can be had in FA with little production drop-off and a better salary than RoLo) you're actually patching a hole, and not creating a significant one. If it works out with Rose then it works out. If not, then it doesn't.
Again, I would have preferred to keep one of RoLo or Grant, but it didn't work out that way. If Rose plays well, and the Knicks improve with this new setup, then the team looks infinitely more attractive next offseason when it counts.
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or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
Stop being obtuse. Phil has been looking for a penetrating point guard for the last two years. He made a deal for one that could potentially work out, and if it doesn't they have the wiggle room to go in another direction. This isn't Antonio McDyess. It's a short-term gamble, without giving up the long term pieces. Sure, RoLo is on a good contract, but does he have the potential to be a game-changer? Realistically, you've gotta think that the Knicks see Hernangomez as being able to take over RoLo's spot down the road anyway.
I dont think we should have done anything much to fix the backcourt. Try to sign a well price FA. Give Grant some run. This season should have been written off. You use your assets to get better in the window when KP will be a star, not to get incrementally better in a hopeless season.
As for whether this is McDyess all over, I dont know why everyone is so happy that this is a short term deal. It just means there is very little upside. Rolo and Grant were two nice long term pieces. Unless Phil is going to get up and say they blew the Grant pick.
Remember Grant was for THJR. I would say plan CAP space is still better than THJR. So how can you say "blew the pick"?
How we got the pick is irrelevant.
Cap space isnt all that great. It's likely to disappoint. Best deal in the NBA is guys on rookie deals. That's why you dont see teams selling off #1s to preserve cap space.
trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
3 years absolutely warrants my hyperbole. Gasol is 35 and Noah is a broken down 32. 3 years for Noah at Lopez money might be the most Knicks move of all time. No offense you said
"If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?" similar deal doesn't read to you as a deal "similar" to Lopez and not simply "a shorter deal that is less than Lopez"? If the Knicks gave Noah 3 years "Lopez-like" money I'd be sick. Noah is closer to a "prove it" guy at this point.
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
3 years absolutely warrants my hyperbole. Gasol is 35 and Noah is a broken down 32. 3 years for Noah at Lopez money might be the most Knicks move of all time. No offense you said
"If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?" similar deal doesn't read to you as a deal "similar" to Lopez and not simply "a shorter deal that is less than Lopez"? If the Knicks gave Noah 3 years "Lopez-like" money I'd be sick. Noah is closer to a "prove it" guy at this point.
Read my post again. I said obviously not for 3 years. The hyperbole was in reference to the extra 3M.
My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
In terms of annual salary I'm not going to flip out over giving a guy 1-2-3 million more than ideal but my reaction was more about years. A guy like Noah should not be guaranteed good money at 3 years. I've always liked him but there is a very real chance he's on a real decline. If anything I'd love to see the Knicks sign someone like Noah for 1 year with a team option. For once let's be the ones in the drivers seat.
My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
In terms of annual salary I'm not going to flip out over giving a guy 1-2-3 million more than ideal but my reaction was more about years. A guy like Noah should not be guaranteed good money at 3 years. I've always liked him but there is a very real chance he's on a real decline. If anything I'd love to see the Knicks sign someone like Noah for 1 year with a team option. For once let's be the ones in the drivers seat.
Ahhhh ok, so we're in agreement then. I'd prefer if the Knicks stick to what they did with DWill and Afflalo as far as deal structure. If Willy can develop into a rotational piece, I think he should take over at the 5. In reality the 5 isn't going to be nearly as important for this time so long as KP is on the roster.
So the Knicks have five actual players--Melo, Rose, KP, O'Quinn, and Holiday. I am assuming that the Lopez move makes the signing of Hernangomez much more likely, which would get them to six.
Who else? They need a starting center, starting shooting guard, back-up small forward, back-up point guard, back-up shooting guard. Do they re-sign D-Will at a higher price? I have heard that he would like to return, and he fits with Hornacek's up-tempo approach. Do they have any kind of hold on Early, and do they care? They can make a qualifying offer on Galloway, but I am not sure they will.
Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
bahahaha. Numerous players? You're actually impressed by that?
It has nothing to do with impressed. It's an objective fact.
You want to tell us who these players are and what they're saying? So far, although you seem irritated with other posters, it's unclear what your position is.
He's serviceable, but in no way does he impact a game. His brother, who is not All Pro, badly outplayed him whenever they were paired against each other. If the trade were Rose for Lopez, I'm all in. Grant, on the other hand, may have a future. Supposedly he can't play the triangle, but then why did Jackson trade up to get him? Makes no sense. On a side note, what also made no sense was trading Shump and JR. I'm not sure Jackson has a plan. I think he's simply attempting to get the Knicks to playoffs so that he when he leaves, he can say, I was a smashing success.
I'm all in.
Sources: The Bulls and Knicks are in advanced discussions on Derrick Rose-Robin Lopez deal that involves guard Justin Holiday to New York.
Knicks and Bulls are in advanced talks on a deal to send Derrick Rose to New York, sources tell @ShamsCharania and me.
The Bulls are trading Rose to the Knicks for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and bigger package, sources tell @TheVertical
I'll be absolutely disgusted if this is the trade.
I'll be absolutely disgusted if this is the trade.
Takes a full year to come back from a knee., especially one, as severe as his. I expect him to be a much improved player.
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either Grant OR Rolo for that package. Rose was worse than Teague last year and he's fragile as shit.
I'll be absolutely disgusted if this is the trade.
Takes a full year to come back from a knee., especially one, as severe as his. I expect him to be a much improved player.
And how long does it take back to come back from a "this guy's body clearly cant take the pounding of an NBA season and his game is predicated on getting to the hole"?
"I got the rose bushes. I definitely got the rose bushes."
Players involved in the Rose deal have been informed, sources tell @TheVertical.
Fuck this.
wow - we're getting ourselves a 65 win team....from five years ago.
Or Noah
I thought for sure you were just trolling us. Nothing personal, it was just too ridiculous to believe.
Heck, you can buy 2nd rounders, so that's nothing special.
This was quoted in the original post
I don't like RoLo as much a most others, so I'm not heartbroken.
I'm also not terribly excited about it.
we already did. Dwight would be uncharted stupidity. Can't wait to see how much Phil pays him. 4/130?
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I'm on board with getting Dwight at this point. Let's just go full-retard.
we already did. Dwight would be uncharted stupidity. Can't wait to see how much Phil pays him. 4/130?
Probably! I gave up hope on this team long ago.. at this point the funnier, the better.
Knicks getting Derrick Rose, Justin Holiday and a 2017 2nd-round pick for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon.
Seems like a wash to me...Lopez at 13.5, Calderson over 7, Rose about 21, and the two guards offset each other.
You see the move Phil pulled off?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaVa6NHwUUg - ( New Window )
if rose is good then great, if he's not they suck, get a high lotto pick and have a ton of cap room next year
4 teams,4 years a D-league star
Knicks getting Derrick Rose, Justin Holiday and a 2017 2nd-round pick for Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon.
Frank was a little late today.... Must have been sleeping
And a spot just opened up for Willy H.
Rose could tear his ACL in the preseason and this still wouldn't be a huge fail in my mind. I had 16-17 as a wash to begin with. Give me the increased freedom next offseason.
You see the move Phil pulled off? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaVa6NHwUUg - ( New Window )
Hahaha, I'm so glad someone else remembers this. My friend and I joke about it all the time.
I hope Rose doesn't get hurt getting off the plane.
You see the move Phil pulled off? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaVa6NHwUUg - ( New Window )
Exactly the video that comes to mind. I've watched that video every time I've gotten excited about the Knicks to remind myself that this franchise is a joke.
Look at what the Bulls got back. Lopez seems serviceable, but he doesnt have the upside of Rose. Those in the know on this board also dont think much of Grant or Calderon. It seems like the Bulls traded Rose and a second round pick for Lopez.
My guess is the trade doesnt produce anything for either team, but it has a better chance of doing so for the Knicks.
KP can play some at C.
KOQ can as well.
Expect Willy H to be on board.
And Phil may have another move lined up.
if rose is good then great, if he's not they suck, get a high lotto pick and have a ton of cap room next year
Thought Lopez had a great year and improved his low post scoring. Also disagree a lot about Grant. He was placed in a bad situation. I thought that Horny PnR would be great for him.
And a spot just opened up for Willy H.
Rose could tear his ACL in the preseason and this still wouldn't be a huge fail in my mind. I had 16-17 as a wash to begin with. Give me the increased freedom next offseason.
You could have gotten more flexibility next summer at any time. There's no need to sacrifice Lopez for a broken down player at this point. If you're desperate for cap space next summer flip him for an expiring THEN. Or trade him into space for a late #1 or whatever.
And am I wrong or does Holiday have a nice 3pt shot?
Hoford would be huge and awesome - which is exactly why it's not going to happen!
If Rose gets to 80% MVP Rose, Melo still is near Melo and KP takes a few steps, the Knicks could be very good.
Maybe they're gonna lose Noah and just got a pretty good C to replace him? Does that make sense? (no sarcasm here.)
Calderon ... is no longer a New York Knick.
Just ... let that wash over you.
And am I wrong or does Holiday have a nice 3pt shot?
I can't speak to his time in the D-League, but in the NBA he doesn't even have an average 2-point shot.
Holiday stats - ( New Window )
And am I wrong or does Holiday have a nice 3pt shot?
Shot well for Chicago last year, but was poor the first half of the season (Den?)
I mean Phil could end up looking like a genius or like the second coming of Scott Layden after this.
Calderon ... is no longer a New York Knick.
Just ... let that wash over you.
That was what we said a few years ago with Raymond Felton and that trade didn't turn out so hot.
Grant only got his opportunity after Melo called out Rambis & it was limited at best Lopez was NOT so-so,in fact was a perfect fit for Melo & KP in that he didn't need plays run for him & he picked up the garbage. If Dwight is the apple of Phil's eye, do you think that happens?
Also, how long will it take for Isola to start harping on the Isiah/Rose Chicago connection?
I mean Phil could end up looking like a genius or like the second coming of Scott Layden after this.
We better be getting Whiteside for giving up Lopez and Grant
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Young C who can rebound and block shots.
And am I wrong or does Holiday have a nice 3pt shot?
I can't speak to his time in the D-League, but in the NBA he doesn't even have an average 2-point shot. Holiday stats - ( New Window )
Funny, his 3pt % of .433 is better than his 2pt percentage.
It is not like he is over 30 he is still young and a former mvp...
Now I would rather go after whiteside than Howard to be honest, Whiteside and kp in the paint on defense would be absolutely crazy...
If rose bombs he is a free agent and knicks have max space in the best point guard market in a long time
Fat Baron Davis, Fat Ray Felton, Toney Douglas, 40 year-old Kidd, 20 games from half-retired Billups, rookie Iman Shumpert, 100 year-old Prigioni, Shane Larkin, 2 weeks of Jeremy Lin, cooked Jose Calderon, and rookie Jerian Grant
If Rose can even be decent, Carmelo will have a much easier time scoring.
If we can land a C like Whiteside and then a FA next year, I'd say this was a smart move. Of course, if Rose gets healthy this would be a great move too, but I'm not holding my breath.
"Do you hear that Boston? FORMIDIBLE!
Because cap space isnt better than having a young PG on a rookie contract and a starting center on a cheap contract.
Worst case, Rose sucks and he's gone in a year clearing $21 mil of cap space. Best case, he's another year recovered and a real PG for a change.
I don't see the big downside here. You're worried Grant's going to become an all-star?
Porz
Lebron
Durant
ANYTHING IS POSSSIBBBBBBBBBBLEEEEEEEEEEEE
Source close to Rose tells me he's excited about playing for Knicks. "His 1st choice was New York (if traded). He wants the spotlight.''
Odds of Joakim Noah being a knick are 80+%
Umm not really, we are going to spend more on getting a center whether thats D12, whiteside, or fucking biyombo.
And why was Grant in this?? What the fuck...
After the deal, the ONLY players signed past this coming season are Melo, KP and KOQ. The cap is going to bounce to somewhere around $93M.
There are rumors that KOQ is on the block for a 2nd rounder. Let's just assume that's true.
If that's the case, the Knicks have just about $28M committed for 2018. For the sake of argument, let's add 2 max deals to that total- make them $28M each. That's $84M in contracts for 4 star level players. You can fill the remaining 11 spots with role level minimum salary guys and rookies with the remaining $8-10M.
Here's where the interesting part comes.
Let's assume that the Knicks can get Durant. The backcourt becomes Durant, Melo and KP- with Rose at the PG for THIS season. Let's assume also that the Knicks let Rose walk after the season.
Stop for a minute and think about who the #1 PG on the FA market will be then. It will be Westbrook.
Who here thinks that the Knicks would have ANY trouble winning the East with a combo of Durant, Melo, KP and Westbrook- plus 11 role players?
Next to Linsanity, I think the Pablo Prigioni experience was my favorite out of all of that. Just kill me now.
No you're good. He's garbage.
Hopefully Whiteside
After the deal, the ONLY players signed past this coming season are Melo, KP and KOQ. The cap is going to bounce to somewhere around $93M.
There are rumors that KOQ is on the block for a 2nd rounder. Let's just assume that's true.
If that's the case, the Knicks have just about $28M committed for 2018. For the sake of argument, let's add 2 max deals to that total- make them $28M each. That's $84M in contracts for 4 star level players. You can fill the remaining 11 spots with role level minimum salary guys and rookies with the remaining $8-10M.
Here's where the interesting part comes.
Let's assume that the Knicks can get Durant. The backcourt becomes Durant, Melo and KP- with Rose at the PG for THIS season. Let's assume also that the Knicks let Rose walk after the season.
Stop for a minute and think about who the #1 PG on the FA market will be then. It will be Westbrook.
Who here thinks that the Knicks would have ANY trouble winning the East with a combo of Durant, Melo, KP and Westbrook- plus 11 role players?
Durant, Melo, KP, and Westbrook not only win the East, they win a title.
There is literally never any patience with this team. No concepts of team building. It's disgusting.
Phil/Mills suck.
And if you can get good free agents to sign, you'll have no problem moving Rolo and Grant to create cap space. There is no need to create cap space a year out. We've made that mistake before.
similar analogue, different sport, I was thinking Beason
There is literally never any patience with this team. No concepts of team building. It's disgusting.
sold low on Chandler, pointless moves for AA, Williams last summer, and now this crap. There's nobody in this front office that has any idea of how to build a roster.
There is literally never any patience with this team. No concepts of team building. It's disgusting.
If Durant goes to fucking Golden State I may have no reason to follow the NBA anymore.
Grant? How is anyone missing out on that little tidbit.
After the deal, the ONLY players signed past this coming season are Melo, KP and KOQ. The cap is going to bounce to somewhere around $93M.
There are rumors that KOQ is on the block for a 2nd rounder. Let's just assume that's true.
If that's the case, the Knicks have just about $28M committed for 2018. For the sake of argument, let's add 2 max deals to that total- make them $28M each. That's $84M in contracts for 4 star level players. You can fill the remaining 11 spots with role level minimum salary guys and rookies with the remaining $8-10M.
Here's where the interesting part comes.
Let's assume that the Knicks can get Durant. The backcourt becomes Durant, Melo and KP- with Rose at the PG for THIS season. Let's assume also that the Knicks let Rose walk after the season.
Stop for a minute and think about who the #1 PG on the FA market will be then. It will be Westbrook.
Who here thinks that the Knicks would have ANY trouble winning the East with a combo of Durant, Melo, KP and Westbrook- plus 11 role players?
+1
Meet the new Knicks management, same as the old Knicks management.We Will get fooled again,Yes,Yes!
They dont get along at all. Butler was going out of his way to not criticize any player in the league.
How Jerry Jones-que of Jimmy Dolan
Wow reports of Rose's teammates saying he's working hard after an injury plagued season? Stop the presses!
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anything except RoLo. I was almost expecting to see some distant future 1st round pick included, but thankfully, that didn't happen.
Grant? How is anyone missing out on that little tidbit.
If Grant showed anything this past season, they wouldn't have traded him the first place. Maybe he develops into a starting caliber player, but that's a big enough of a question that I won't lose sleep over trading him.
Good thing Kobe's retired!
No way. Forget his BB value. He has young star power that generates money for MSG and the league. I think Silver would even step in on that one waving his hands.
This is 100% a quick fix deal. We had Lopez locked into a FANTASTIC deal going forward. Howard and Whiteside will cost $20M+.
What's the upside with this? If Rose is amazing we will have to dole out $100M to keep him. If not, we just gave up a valuable contract in RoLo and a 1st round pick from last year.
I really want it to mean we can get a Horford or Whiteside, but you just know its going to Howard and then like Evan Turner.
Title favorite?
Because Rome isnt built in a day, but if you rip down the foundation every night, you make no progress.
What is the historical precedent for trading valuable assets (IMO 2 of the Knicks 4 valuable assets excluding picks) for a guy who cant stay healthy like Rose? Which recent champ built a team that way.
I agree with this. I'm not wild about it, but really like the fact that Rose is expiring, so that we have tons of options for 2017. Now, if we land Whiteside I think the combined deals are a coup.
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as the knicks usual quick fix type deals. Rose isnt signed for like 4 years and we didnt give away the farm to get him. Look i liked the Grant pick, but i think we would all be thrilled if he become a solid starting PG. He doesnt have the skills to be anything more then that. Odds are he settles in as a good backup. And i really liked Lopez, but he is not a guy you cant replace. Im on the fence with the trade, but I dont get why some are screaming how horrible it is like we just traded a top 5 pick, Grant, and a future first to get Rose. This is not a trade that sacrificed our future like the trades they usually make.
This is 100% a quick fix deal. We had Lopez locked into a FANTASTIC deal going forward. Howard and Whiteside will cost $20M+.
What's the upside with this? If Rose is amazing we will have to dole out $100M to keep him. If not, we just gave up a valuable contract in RoLo and a 1st round pick from last year.
Well, if Rose is "amazing" then they might actually have some meaningful games in April/May. That would be *some* of the upside.
it's not a Curry or McDysse level disaster in the making, but it's indicative of a flawed organizational approach to team building and an inability to properly value your own players. Grant and Lopez are not all-stars, but they had value going forward. They should have been looking to GET guys like that in exchange for taking Rose off their hands.
Source close to Rose tells me he's excited about playing for Knicks. "His 1st choice was New York (if traded). He wants the spotlight.''
Oh good, he wants the spotlight to play 40 games in. It's a contract year. The first ache or pain, he's sitting for a week.
That's weird to me. Haven't seen that anywhere.
why waive him now? Why not see what he can do in summer league? WTF is going on?
Coupled with the fact you can still sign a max this year...
This also opens the door for the knicks to use the pitch to durant if he wants to keep playing with westbrook, you sign here and then knicks sign Westbrook next year
I guess I should have waited 30 minutes before buying my custom authentic Tony Wroten Knicks jersey?
SG
but it's only a "steal" for one season. That's not a thing you want to trade assets for (unless maybe you're a contender looking to add one last piece). That's not smart team building.
Should've gotten his brother, Jrue. Haha
I dont see how any knick fan can be bent out of shape about this.
Do you really think Lopez isnt replaceable? Last year knick fans were clamoring for more minutes for Grant and now he's traded. Maybe the knicks had no faith in him?
They gave up nothing. If it works out great. If not the team is going to have a shit load of cap space next year when the free agency crop is much better.
Good gamble for the knicks.
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WOW. Now we need a backup PG
That's weird to me. Haven't seen that anywhere.
Only makes sense if he's hurt Summer league starts July 2nd, was looking forward to seeing him in action. Guess not.
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He is on a 1 year prove it contract, if he plays like his mvp self you got a steal
but it's only a "steal" for one season. That's not a thing you want to trade assets for (unless maybe you're a contender looking to add one last piece). That's not smart team building.
You traded 1 asset in grant and lopez was never part of the future here, he would have been moved probably next off season for a guard or cap space
only the Knicks can make a trade where the best case scenario is that the guy they acquire gets hurt and leaves after one season.
Coupled with the fact you can still sign a max this year...
This also opens the door for the knicks to use the pitch to durant if he wants to keep playing with westbrook, you sign here and then knicks sign Westbrook next year
First, this guy hasn't been healthy for like 4 years.
Second, if he plays like an MVP, it's not a steal. You have to pay him like like an MVP or you're back to square one next season with a hole at PG, and a weakly positioned draft pick.
Third, who's playing center? You created a roster hole while filling a different roster hole.
They would've had lots of money to spend regardless.
I dont see how any knick fan can be bent out of shape about this.
Do you really think Lopez isnt replaceable? Last year knick fans were clamoring for more minutes for Grant and now he's traded. Maybe the knicks had no faith in him?
They gave up nothing. If it works out great. If not the team is going to have a shit load of cap space next year when the free agency crop is much better.
Good gamble for the knicks.
Grant never got a shot because Rambis thought each game was game 7 & he was playing for his job. Kid has the potential to be a very good player..and he's healthy!
1.) Get "star power" for a potential "star" FA signing.
2.) Clear cap space for 2017 to get a "Star" FA.
If the Knicks come away with 2 stud FAs in the next 2 years this was the trade everyone will talk about as being the precursor to that. Then you have KP, Melo, and 2 big time FAs. They will at least put themselves in a position to compete for a title.
are you drunk?
Coupled with the fact you can still sign a max this year...
This also opens the door for the knicks to use the pitch to durant if he wants to keep playing with westbrook, you sign here and then knicks sign Westbrook next year
Theres no upside. Theres no reason to believe they can even get out of the 1st round barring a Durant signing. It would've been BETTER if he was signed for 4 more years at this rate, now you have to give him a new max under the NEW salary cap if you want to keep him...
I dont see how any knick fan can be bent out of shape about this.
Do you really think Lopez isnt replaceable? Last year knick fans were clamoring for more minutes for Grant and now he's traded. Maybe the knicks had no faith in him?
They gave up nothing. If it works out great. If not the team is going to have a shit load of cap space next year when the free agency crop is much better.
Good gamble for the knicks.
Cautiously optimistic.
Wroten being waived is interesting.
But we still need a center, so I'm excited to see what may be coming next.
He was an MVP with 3 of the four of those issues.
Don't forget that pesky sexual assault case coming down the pike!
Grant never got a shot because Rambis thought each game was game 7 & he was playing for his job. Kid has the potential to be a very good player..and he's healthy!
That is highly presumptuous. I think the only complaint about this deal is what else could RoLo have gotten on the trade market? Otherwise, we're just speculating on what Grant is or could be. I fall into the "I wasn't blown away by anything I saw" camp.
*Forgot TO prone. Are we even confident that he's even better than Calderon on defense?
Lopez was an asset and almost certainly could have been part of the future or used to get something more useful than a broken down PG who will be gone in 12 months.
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Grant never got a shot because Rambis thought each game was game 7 & he was playing for his job. Kid has the potential to be a very good player..and he's healthy!
That is highly presumptuous. I think the only complaint about this deal is what else could RoLo have gotten on the trade market? Otherwise, we're just speculating on what Grant is or could be. I fall into the "I wasn't blown away by anything I saw" camp.
you can feel Grant is "just a guy" and still be against including him in a deal like this.
The year he won MVP, he played the majoirty of the year with Bogans as the 2 guard. A worn down Deng, and Kurt Thomas as center.
Yeah lets add Noah, makes me feel safer about the injury risk of our roster.
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about a score-first point guard with surgically repaired knees and confidence issues who also happens not be a dead-eye shooter either.
He was an MVP with 3 of the four of those issues.
It just tells you how athleticism dependent Rose's game is. It's the same thing with Westbrook. These guys destroy/ed players through HOF level quicks and hops.
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Got your three stars with Rose, Melo, and Porzingas. IF they're healthy you should being able to compete with Cleveland.
are you drunk?
No if they're healthy, they should be pretty good. The East is shit
an ominous tweet by Hahn in regards to this makes it seem like another move;
Alan Hahn @alanhahn 1m1 minute ago
More to come RT @Stuce_: @alanhahn purpose behind waiving wroten?
I wonder if that's his Isaiah Whitehead prediction.
The year he won MVP, he played the majoirty of the year with Bogans as the 2 guard. A worn down Deng, and Kurt Thomas as center.
Pre-injury Rose was a franchise player, one of my favorites in the league. It's this version that's terrifying.
Durant is coming to the Lakers :)
That's the ONLY outcome (outside of KD, but lets be real) that will make me happy about this deal.
Hopefully they sign Dwight Howard and we can become Rockets East with two wholly unlikable past their moment stars dominating the show. Also can't wait for Rose's clown brother to be his mouthpiece any time big bro doesn't like something.
What a mess.
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By all accounts he was healthy and excited to play in summer league, either he got hurt training or knicks have another move, but they just opened up a spot with this trade
an ominous tweet by Hahn in regards to this makes it seem like another move;
Alan Hahn @alanhahn 1m1 minute ago
More to come RT @Stuce_: @alanhahn purpose behind waiving wroten?
Is FA open?
Like I said earlier, I'd be stunned if Joakim Noah isn't a Knick very shortly.
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By all accounts he was healthy and excited to play in summer league, either he got hurt training or knicks have another move, but they just opened up a spot with this trade
an ominous tweet by Hahn in regards to this makes it seem like another move;
Alan Hahn @alanhahn 1m1 minute ago
More to come RT @Stuce_: @alanhahn purpose behind waiving wroten?
or maybe Wroten got a DWI last week or punched his girlfriend. Waiving Wroten likely has nothing to do with any pending moves. We have tons of open spots on the roster.
I think Horny watched a lot of film and told Phil the Knicks could do better than all of these guys ...
Of course it's photoshopped. There are people seating in the stands at a Bobcats game.
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Grant never got a shot because Rambis thought each game was game 7 & he was playing for his job. Kid has the potential to be a very good player..and he's healthy!
That is highly presumptuous. I think the only complaint about this deal is what else could RoLo have gotten on the trade market? Otherwise, we're just speculating on what Grant is or could be. I fall into the "I wasn't blown away by anything I saw" camp.
Not presumptuous at all Kid was the 19th pick in the first round of last year's NBA draft. So obviously he was held in high esteem as a talent. He was never afforded the opportunity to make mistakes & play through them (until the end when Melo spoke up) Certainly any talent coming into the NBA is about speculation-Remember the speculation on KP? And, i think i said has the potential to be,not is,a very good player!
If Grant turns into something....
Trade Grades - ( New Window )
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Trade Grades - ( New Window )
seriously? His positives for the Knicks include increased ticket and jersey sales, and he gets the cap information wrong. Why are you posting this crap?
Not right now, Dan. Not right now.
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got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Well, you know a lot more about the NBA than I do. As a Bulls fan, I do like the trade and getting Lopez. But for the Knicks they may be about getting a contract they can get rid of after this year, and trading Calderon. If so, then it seems its about cap space for the Knicks. As far as resigning Rose, if he plays well, it will cost a lot to resign him. But I do wonder if his price will be less even then because of his injury history.
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In comment 13004986 AcidTest said:
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got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Well, you know a lot more about the NBA than I do. As a Bulls fan, I do like the trade and getting Lopez. But for the Knicks they may be about getting a contract they can get rid of after this year, and trading Calderon. If so, then it seems its about cap space for the Knicks. As far as resigning Rose, if he plays well, it will cost a lot to resign him. But I do wonder if his price will be less even then because of his injury history.
FA hasn't started but after trading for Rose, that means they want to be competitive. What else does this team need to be competitive? Well a starting center after this trade. What will a starting center worth a shit cost this summer? Likely $20M a year plus. So indirectly they will actually have LESS cap space because of this trade.
Yeah, this is why.
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I like Jackson too, but I like Gary Payton II more than Jackson and Ulis
he did, but the Knicks' D on some of those clips is virtually nonexistent, even from KP.
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
we make every opposing guard look great.
all I got from that is that Calderon is incapable of fighting through a screen.
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got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Just yesterday, weren't you saying that the Knicks signing Conley was a bad idea? But it's ok for the Bulls to sign him?
OR create space for next year and both him and Westbrook are coming...
Let's see what the next move is
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In comment 13004986 AcidTest said:
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got to give something to get something. If Rose doesnt work out, you let him go after this season. If he does, and you have to pay him, at least youve filled a hole on your roster. My guess is that even if he stays healthy and plays well, his value wont be quite as great because of his injury history. The Knicks also unloaded 34 year old Calderon who apparently has a bad contract. So thats more cap space. They also got a second round pick. To do all of this, they had to give up Lopez, a decent player. Seems fair for both teams.
What? If Rose doesn't work out you gave up a near top 10 center who will account for about 11% of the cap next year and a rookie for nothing. If he works out, you have to invest $150M to retain one of the most injury prone stars in sports history. Yay upside!
Look at what Chicago got out of this. They can now sign Conley, they have a healthy rim protector, and a very young and promising bench.
Just look at their bench. Grant, McBuckets, Mirotic and Portis. Oh and add their lottery pick they're getting tomorrow. For a team that's been trying hard to compete with their franchise player facing injury after injury, they've done well with acquiring young assets at the same time. That's how you build a team.
Just yesterday, weren't you saying that the Knicks signing Conley was a bad idea? But it's ok for the Bulls to sign him?
Yes completely. The one big thing preventing the Bulls from being actual contenders the last few years was consistent PG play. They have one of the better benches in the league now. Prior to the trade today, the Knicks had 3 actual NBA players on the roster. That actually might be 2 after today. Its a wait and see.
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and I'll consider you?
OR create space for next year and both him and Westbrook are coming...
Let's see what the next move is
Create space, but dont bring back any long term assets. Instead trade 2 of your 4 interesting players for an expiring contract
It also smells of Isaiah...
Just yesterday, weren't you saying that the Knicks signing Conley was a bad idea? But it's ok for the Bulls to sign him?
Isnt it crazy how a good move for one team is not necessarily a good move for another team?
Only stupid teams trade youth to try to squeeze back into the playoffs. You BUILD a team thru patience.
@ripcityhamilton
Wow. The Knicks will be one of the top 3 teams in the east next year. Trust me. #Drose #holdat
And a backup 1 and a backup 3
Derrick Rose is the first former MVP to play for the Knicks since Bob McAdoo.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
It also smells of Isaiah...
it's similar to the Steve Francis trade. Except Francis didn't get hurt every year.
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but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
Good point - we'd be griping just as much if they gave a max contract to less than max quality free agent
And a new owner. And a competent front office.
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but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
It's very ignorant to say that he "saves" us $21 mil before FA even starts. If they sign a center for more than a year for a penny more than $13,219,250 then we will have LESS cap space because of this deal.
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but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
Oh, yay, cap space. Have you looked around the league? Cap space isnt all that helpful right now. The league is awash in cap space. What is helpful is people on rookie deals and below market contracts. I.e. the stuff we gave up for a year of Rose.
What do we do with a year of Rose? Short of Durant coming here, anyone see us as a title team?
[quote] In comment 13005084 TommyWiseau said:
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In comment 13005075 mfsd said:
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but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
Good point - we'd be griping just as much if they gave a max contract to less than max quality free agent [/quote
there are no perfect fixes in free agency. Only the draft can really create value where a player outperforms his contract. I guess that the Knicks like D Rose and his deal over what's available in FA a PG. I guess they try and reel in a big fish with the promise of D Rose, Melo and KP and then if that fails, bargain hunt.
That being said, to me it looks like Phil will probably go after Pau on a 1+1 deal, which makes a crap load of sense. Smart, experienced guy at the 5. Phil has compared KP to him when KP was first drafted. And he would also be a great mentor for Willy when he comes over.
Still need a 2, though - would love for them to go after Fournier.
As for Howard, he is damaged goods which would be more of a knick type player.
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In comment 13005075 mfsd said:
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but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
It's very ignorant to say that he "saves" us $21 mil before FA even starts. If they sign a center for more than a year for a penny more than $13,219,250 then we will have LESS cap space because of this deal.
The deal saves $14M in a much better FA class.
[quote] In comment 13005084 TommyWiseau said:
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In comment 13005075 mfsd said:
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but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
Good point - we'd be griping just as much if they gave a max contract to less than max quality free agent [/quote
there are no perfect fixes in free agency. Only the draft can really create value where a player outperforms his contract
Hmmm so someone like Jerian Grant?
Hmm so like an upper echelon center on a 4 year $52M deal?
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In comment 13005084 TommyWiseau said:
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In comment 13005075 mfsd said:
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but this smells of the Knicks trying for the short term fix like they always do. Not that we gave up that much, and more deals could be coming.
It also smells of Isaiah...
Eh getting someone on one year deal that saves us 21 mil in cap space when he comes off the books is not really a short term fix. Sets us up nicely for the future, too bad this team doesn't know how to spend money
It's very ignorant to say that he "saves" us $21 mil before FA even starts. If they sign a center for more than a year for a penny more than $13,219,250 then we will have LESS cap space because of this deal.
The deal saves $14M in a much better FA class.
Again, that's very ignorant before FA starts. Do you think the Knicks front office is gonna be like "lets start O'quinn at center". Or are they gonna be "we gave up a center on a good contract and a rookie for an expiring but promising player, so lets go all in this year". Because if the former is your thought process, why the fuck did they take back Rose, they could've just dumped Lopez for 2nd rounders and tank.
If the latter is your thought process, don't they have to sign a center now to be competitive? If its someone like Pau on a 1+1 deal, i can see that point. But if it's Dwight Howard on a 4 year $120M contract that really wont be the case will it? Either way it's too early to claim which one it is before FA even starts.
Link
Less flexibility going forward. Before the trade, we had the right to pay Lopez 14-15 million a year, and Grant on a rookie deal. If we didnt want to do that, we could have easily given them away for future assets in return. Easily.
No we dont have that option. All we have is the cap space. So by definition, it is less flexibility.
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Most fans overvalue their own players and hate trades.
just because Lopez might not be an ideal fit or need going forward doesn't mean you dump him the first chance you get. Bringing over Wily at say half the cost of Lopez and developing him, while exploring deals that net you something useful for Lopez is sound team building. Throwing Lopez into a deal for a guy the Bulls were clearly desperate to move who's likely gone after next year is a waste of an asset.
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
Herring is the same guy touting Tony Wroten as the next westbrook. Wroten has now been cut by the sixers and knicks
We just got done cursing and swearing that the knicks had no defensive center. They get one on a value deal with the bonus of getting more offense than they expected too, and can't wait to throw him out the door.
This organization changes directions so quickly they don't know what's left or right.
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
Herring is the same guy touting Tony Wroten as the next westbrook. Wroten has now been cut by the sixers and knicks
I believe it was Berman who made that silly comment.
6 mins ago - View on Twitter
Acquiring Derrick Rose to pair with Carmelo Anthony has given the Knicks the inside track on the 2011 NBA championship.
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
The Knicks led the sport in rim defense and they still stunk.
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
The Knicks led the sport in rim defense and they still stunk.
This is spot on. KP is the future at the 5
And it's not like this team needed to get worse defensively ether. That will surely help the W-L record.
So long as our plan is to pray to a higher power for health and recovery in Derrick Rose's career, I'm kinda down to experimenting with Kyle O'quinn as our starting center.
I mean, if this move was really about clearing cap space for next season, what harm can that do? If he is really the 15, 12, 3 and 2 his per 36 #s suggest and a 17.5 PER and .103 WS/48 his advanced numbers suggest, why not go for it? In the off chance he does have that type of season as a starter, you have a $3M starting center when the cap explodes to $112M.
+2
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
THat is misrepresenting things a little. There's no LeBron James or Curry/Thompson/Green to account for the fact that you have an unconventional roster. The warriors can rely on having a historically efficient offense and a defensive stopper that can guard multiple positions well.
The Knicks don't have any of those luxuries.
I would have thought Lopez had some decent value but we aren't talking about Brook Lopez here. He's an ok player on an ok deal. Add it up he has OK value.
Grant is the one guy I am nervous about but let's be honest, the guy showed virtually nothing last year and was a 4 year collegiate player. Odds are he's never going to be anything more than a rotation player.
It's a trade that is kinda high on the upside, maybe, and virtually no low side and the Knicks didn't compromise any cap room. I think they actually improved it now and in the long run but could be mistaken.
Relax. This isn't the same old Knicks. Phil has something up his sleeve. If this was the same old Knicks we'd have no cap room and no picks the next 2-3 years. And no KP.
Again, I don't love it. I never liked Rose but it's not a nightmare trade.
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
The Knicks led the sport in rim defense and they still stunk.
This also isn't a "do whatever the Warriors are doing" sport either. The Cavs just won a title with Tristan Thompson at the 5. It's not about what position you can play, it's what you can do. TT could switch onto guards successfully while battling with probably the grittiest player in the league on the boards and defense.
Do I have to remind you how the KP vs Draymond match up turned out? One day KP can hopefully get many minutes at the 5 but he's not even CLOSE to being able to handle the big boys in the league regardless of how tough he is right now.
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That's the main issue. But going forward, the Knicks don't need a big-time 5 (if they believe Willy can develop into a rotation piece). They have Porzingis who can play at the 4 or 5. Someone like Pau who can give you 25 minutes a night at the 5 makes a ton of sense, especially as a mentor (and translator) for both Willy and KP.
just because Lopez might not be an ideal fit or need going forward doesn't mean you dump him the first chance you get. Bringing over Wily at say half the cost of Lopez and developing him, while exploring deals that net you something useful for Lopez is sound team building. Throwing Lopez into a deal for a guy the Bulls were clearly desperate to move who's likely gone after next year is a waste of an asset.
What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6m6 minutes ago
You're not gonna find a FA center who plays the position as well as he does, and knows the offense, for the money he makes. Not anymore.
And now he was just given away for one season of a broken down guard.
This isn't a center sport anymore. The Blazers let RoLo walk (and Aldridge left) and they didn't fall off the map. The 7 games Finals series was just played without a center on the floor 80% of the time. I don't think it's necessary to replace RoLo with another center at that price.
The Knicks led the sport in rim defense and they still stunk.
well none of what you're saying about centers/rim protection not having value is true - and even if Lopez turned out to be expendable, move him for something useful. Not Rose.
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In comment 13005123 Aspano! said:
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That's the main issue. But going forward, the Knicks don't need a big-time 5 (if they believe Willy can develop into a rotation piece). They have Porzingis who can play at the 4 or 5. Someone like Pau who can give you 25 minutes a night at the 5 makes a ton of sense, especially as a mentor (and translator) for both Willy and KP.
just because Lopez might not be an ideal fit or need going forward doesn't mean you dump him the first chance you get. Bringing over Wily at say half the cost of Lopez and developing him, while exploring deals that net you something useful for Lopez is sound team building. Throwing Lopez into a deal for a guy the Bulls were clearly desperate to move who's likely gone after next year is a waste of an asset.
What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
Aspano coming in with the logic bomb.
I would have thought Lopez had some decent value but we aren't talking about Brook Lopez here. He's an ok player on an ok deal. Add it up he has OK value.
Grant is the one guy I am nervous about but let's be honest, the guy showed virtually nothing last year and was a 4 year collegiate player. Odds are he's never going to be anything more than a rotation player.
It's a trade that is kinda high on the upside, maybe, and virtually no low side and the Knicks didn't compromise any cap room. I think they actually improved it now and in the long run but could be mistaken.
Relax. This isn't the same old Knicks. Phil has something up his sleeve. If this was the same old Knicks we'd have no cap room and no picks the next 2-3 years. And no KP.
Again, I don't love it. I never liked Rose but it's not a nightmare trade.
Ok deal?
Lets wait a year and you tell me if Lopez was on an "ok" deal. I'd argue that he's BETTER than brook lopez, because he can actually jump and defend the rim. If he was not a top 10 center he was close to it. Double doubles aren't the most important things about being a center anymore.
D12 is about to make literally double what Lopez is making right now...
yes, it's still a waste. If the Bulls want to gift you a future #2 or highly protected #1 or a decent young player for taking Rose's money off their hands, then it might be something worth doing. But you don't trade them players locked into team friendly deals. And once again, everyone is going to have cap space. It's not going to be nearly as valuable as it used to be. Stop overrating it.
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In comment 13005123 Aspano! said:
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That's the main issue. But going forward, the Knicks don't need a big-time 5 (if they believe Willy can develop into a rotation piece). They have Porzingis who can play at the 4 or 5. Someone like Pau who can give you 25 minutes a night at the 5 makes a ton of sense, especially as a mentor (and translator) for both Willy and KP.
just because Lopez might not be an ideal fit or need going forward doesn't mean you dump him the first chance you get. Bringing over Wily at say half the cost of Lopez and developing him, while exploring deals that net you something useful for Lopez is sound team building. Throwing Lopez into a deal for a guy the Bulls were clearly desperate to move who's likely gone after next year is a waste of an asset.
What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
First we have to wait and see if they actually go for a center on a 1+1 deal. let's not put anything past this team before FA even starts..
Second of all, what do we do about center next year, when the cap jumps up? The best UFA center is ANDREW BOGUT. Or do you want to stick with a 37 year old Pau as part of a title contending second piece. We lost the flexibility of having a starting caliber center on whats going to be a role player type of deal.
What are you talking about? Stop with this crap. It's old and done.
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You know Dolan loves him some PG's with sex charges against them #Knicks
What are you talking about? Stop with this crap. It's old and done.
No it isn't. He had a trial date scheduled.
FFS.
that's not the question and it might not even be true. The question is what other moves are/were out there that can help make the Knicks into a sustainable winner.
It's been explained a million times why more cap room next year isn't all it's cracked up to be...and even if it was, you could have gotten that flexibility next year if you really needed it.
to Noah? whoop de damn do. As for anyone else, that's pure speculation.
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makes the Knicks a better team than Lopez does.
that's not the question and it might not even be true. The question is what other moves are/were out there that can help make the Knicks into a sustainable winner.
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He also provides them with more cap flexibility next year
It's been explained a million times why more cap room next year isn't all it's cracked up to be...and even if it was, you could have gotten that flexibility next year if you really needed it.
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as well as makes them a more attractive FA destination.
to Noah? whoop de damn do. As for anyone else, that's pure speculation.
Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
bahahaha. Numerous players? You're actually impressed by that?
Yeah, $20-30M will be on ANOTHER CENTER.
Healthy carmelo anthony couldn't even get a a free agent visit from Greg Monroe, but 40-50 games of the 2011 MVP makes NY a hotspot.
FFS.
Hmm... don't know how to make of this comment. Not being funny. I keep hearing how great the TWolves will be and how no big FA wants to come to the Knicks.
Is NY still a prime target for free agents? Are the TWolves now the team to be on?
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Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
bahahaha. Numerous players? You're actually impressed by that?
It has nothing to do with impressed. It's an objective fact.
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stop pretending like the Knicks having 30 mil in cap space is the same as the TWolves having 30 mil in cap space.
FFS.
Hmm... don't know how to make of this comment. Not being funny. I keep hearing how great the TWolves will be and how no big FA wants to come to the Knicks.
Is NY still a prime target for free agents? Are the TWolves now the team to be on?
From a pure bball perspective, the TWolves are absolutely the team to be on. But if you want to market yourself and avoid the frozen tundra, you'd have to look elsewhere.
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Is the knicks to go out and spend 30 million and then go out next year and spend 30 million, that is what this deal does
Yeah, $20-30M will be on ANOTHER CENTER.
If they're paying another center 20-30 million in today's NBA, they're fucking stupid. I seriously doubt they do that though.
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In comment 13005170 Jon in NYC said:
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stop pretending like the Knicks having 30 mil in cap space is the same as the TWolves having 30 mil in cap space.
FFS.
Hmm... don't know how to make of this comment. Not being funny. I keep hearing how great the TWolves will be and how no big FA wants to come to the Knicks.
Is NY still a prime target for free agents? Are the TWolves now the team to be on?
From a pure bball perspective, the TWolves are absolutely the team to be on. But if you want to market yourself and avoid the frozen tundra, you'd have to look elsewhere.
Okay got ya. It's kinda of sad of how you had to explain this to me. But this is now the state of the NBA at least if you're a Knicks fan. For years all I ever wanted was cap space to be able to sign big FAs. Now this talk of this not being a good designation is just sad.
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What if you get someone like Pau or Noah (who I wouldn't want) for less than $14M, on a 1+1 deal? Is it still a waste of an asset? Because now you're getting comparable production at the 5, and the potential for pretty big upgrade at the 1. All the while, maintaining the same amount of capspace this offseason, and opening up even more cap space in a year where there are many many many more options available.
yes, it's still a waste. If the Bulls want to gift you a future #2 or highly protected #1 or a decent young player for taking Rose's money off their hands, then it might be something worth doing. But you don't trade them players locked into team friendly deals. And once again, everyone is going to have cap space. It's not going to be nearly as valuable as it used to be. Stop overrating it.
Once again, the advantage of RoLo was that he was a good piece on a very good deal. So yes, you give up some interior defense - but the Knicks had the best interior defense in the league last year (or close to it) and what did it do? It netted them 32 wins.
I'm not even a fan of this deal. I just don't think it's terrible, for the simple reason that if the Knicks sign an aging 5 (Pau or Gasol) - and I only somewhat like this deal contingent on that fact - you give up a little bit on the defensive end, but can potentially get a bit more on the offensive end (passing-wise, shooting-wise if Pau) for roughly the same amount of money (another "if"). And RoLo was only going to get 25-30 min a game anyway, and they obviously think Hernangomez could turn into a rotational piece.
At the same time, you potentially get a HUGE upgrade at the 1, and shore up 1/2 of the biggest weakness on the team, leaving the same amount of money to shore up the other half. And if Rose gets injured again and the Knicks shit the bed? They still have their #1 pick in next year's draft.
But what if Rose actually plays really well, and the Knicks are in the playoffs next year? Next offseason you can resign him, or maybe even have a chance at someone like Westbrook because you've got the room to do so, and you've proven that the team has made significant steps towards being a contender with a capable PG.
My concern is what they want to do at SG. There are a ton of subpar options. I like Courtney Lee, Bazemore I guess. There really isn't much out there.
My concern is what they want to do at SG. There are a ton of subpar options. I like Courtney Lee, Bazemore I guess. There really isn't much out there.
Turner and Crabbe would be my plan Bs. But jeez.
My concern is what they want to do at SG. There are a ton of subpar options. I like Courtney Lee, Bazemore I guess. There really isn't much out there.
A top 5 center making $25M a year in 2 years will be a pretty darn good bargain.
This is not when you make your move. This is how drunks spend. Oh, look, our owner is a fucking drunk.
After your bullshit statement in the USA thread you can kindly go fuck off.
They certainly "can" play the 5 but if we're in the business of winning now its about creating threats more than figuring out who "has" to play the 5. With Whiteside and KP, you certainly have a size advantage over any team in the league. You have 2 very capable rim protectors and a frontcourt (counting Melo) that can haul in damn near 30 boards a game on their own night in, and night out. If you add Lee or Bazemore, you can compliment the size with shooting as well. Next year, Rose will be off the books and you have the "brand names" you were talking about to entice CP3, Lowry or Westbrook.
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I know some Knicks fans were... bullish about him, but he always seemed more athlete than bball player to me.
After your bullshit statement in the USA thread you can kindly go fuck off.
lmao, what was this statement?
This is not when you make your move. This is how drunks spend. Oh, look, our owner is a fucking drunk.
edit
The whole "deal Tobias Harris for absolutely nothing" trade has me thinking they saved $50M in cap space just for this reason.
Would also rather max Whiteside than Fournier
Good defender. Can get to the rim at will. I think has real PG skills -- e.g. knows not just who to pass to, but where to get them the ball. Bad, bad finisher (I think it is lack of strength). Funky shot that needs work but is not what they call "broken".
A few summers in the gym should do him a world of good. Note that I was considered a Grant booster on the threads.
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I know some Knicks fans were... bullish about him, but he always seemed more athlete than bball player to me.
After your bullshit statement in the USA thread you can kindly go fuck off.
Are we talking about soccer here? You disagree that they're the softest, most melodramatic athletes in the world?
I think Reggie Jackson is his closest comp. Doesnt mean Grant will develop like Jackson did.
Trade for Derrick Rose shows quick-fix Knicks cant quit old habits - ( New Window )
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I'm quitting the NBA.
My concern is what they want to do at SG. There are a ton of subpar options. I like Courtney Lee, Bazemore I guess. There really isn't much out there.
A top 5 center making $25M a year in 2 years will be a pretty darn good bargain.
But you're then spending a whole bunch of money at a position where you don't necessarily need to do so. KP is the #1 asset the team has, and the piece to grow around. His major strength is versatility - he can play as a 4 next to a true center, and at the 5 in "smaller" lineups. Maxing a guy who is in some ways redundant is not a good use of assets. That's why RoLo was such a good deal. Sure, he was a pure 5, but next year and the year after he was being paid as a rotational piece, which he was always going to be next to KP.
A huge contract needs to go to a player who fills a HUGE void. With KP, the 5 is not a huge void. If that means that you bring in a younger player who can develop into a decent rotational piece there (Willy), or an aging vet who is solid and ok with being a rotational piece (Pau/Noah), you do it. Allocate more assets towards bigger holes - the 1 and 2. This move effectively allows you to do that, because Rose requires more money, but he's on a 1 year deal. You still have room to get a lower valued piece at the 5, have more potential with less risk at the 1, and money to improve the 2 as much as possible.
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or Batum. I'd actually prefer Fournier because his max is lower and he's younger, and with another big cap jump projected next year his deal becomes even better.
The whole "deal Tobias Harris for absolutely nothing" trade has me thinking they saved $50M in cap space just for this reason.
Would also rather max Whiteside than Fournier
The Tobias Harris deal was a necessity, because Orlando's 2 and 3 are logjammed to the same extent that Philly's 5 is. It's still the case even after the Tobias Harris deal.
Them matching a max for Fournier makes little sense, considering they have Oladipo, Gordon and Hezonja all there. If anything, they'd probably match a max for Fournier only to send him away for a few assets (2nd round picks, low-cost rotational pieces).
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In comment 13005195 Jon in NYC said:
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I'm quitting the NBA.
My concern is what they want to do at SG. There are a ton of subpar options. I like Courtney Lee, Bazemore I guess. There really isn't much out there.
A top 5 center making $25M a year in 2 years will be a pretty darn good bargain.
But you're then spending a whole bunch of money at a position where you don't necessarily need to do so. KP is the #1 asset the team has, and the piece to grow around. His major strength is versatility - he can play as a 4 next to a true center, and at the 5 in "smaller" lineups. Maxing a guy who is in some ways redundant is not a good use of assets. That's why RoLo was such a good deal. Sure, he was a pure 5, but next year and the year after he was being paid as a rotational piece, which he was always going to be next to KP.
A huge contract needs to go to a player who fills a HUGE void. With KP, the 5 is not a huge void. If that means that you bring in a younger player who can develop into a decent rotational piece there (Willy), or an aging vet who is solid and ok with being a rotational piece (Pau/Noah), you do it. Allocate more assets towards bigger holes - the 1 and 2. This move effectively allows you to do that, because Rose requires more money, but he's on a 1 year deal. You still have room to get a lower valued piece at the 5, have more potential with less risk at the 1, and money to improve the 2 as much as possible.
I disagree. If you really want to compete with the legit teams in the east, I want to be in the business of creating threats, not filling holes. Fournier is a good shooter and may develop into a fine overall scorer (which is why I think he will be matched), don't get me wrong, but come playoff time, there are going to be more halfcourt sets. A front court of KP-Pau is nice but do they really get you over the edge of Cleveland? Not saying Whiteside and KP does, but that gives you a legit concern that forces the other team to game plan around. Maybe even throw 2 bigs. Having say, Courtnee Lee, gives you a relatively cheaper option that helps space the floor and solidifies the defense.
There's no wing defensive stopper on this roster. But forcing Lowry, Lebron, Milsap, etc. to go through KP and Whiteside everytime they drive to the paint gives them something to think about.
You're not getting Turner for 10 per
I mentioned him in there, but my point is that Orlando had a bunch of guys with potential at the 2-3-4 prior to the Harris trade.
Oladipo - 2
Hezonja - 2/3
Fournier - 2/3
Harris - 3/4
Gordon - 4
Fournier and Harris were the only of those guys not drafted in the top 5. At one point last year they had to bring Oladipo off the bench to accommodate. And mind you, they also resigned Harris to a max contract and then traded him for essentially cap space. If they match a max for Fournier, it's going to be the same thing.
[quote] In comment 13004754 DanMetroMan said:
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You know Dolan loves him some PG's with sex charges against them #Knicks
What are you talking about? Stop with this crap. It's old and done. [/quote
Wut? Rose faces sexual assault allegations and they are far from "old and done". The case is ongoing. Thanks for playing though
http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2016/06/08/derrick-roses-sexual-assault-accuser-s
@WexlerRules
@StarburyMarbury Any advice for Derrick Rose joining the Knicks? #Knicks
@StarburyMarbury I AM PEACE STAR
Good luck.
Since Williams and Affalo opted out. Use the cap to sign Batum and Pau.
Starting 5 would be.
Rose/Batum/Melo/Zinger/Pau
Fournier or Crabbe something like 4 years 60 to 65 million
Fill out rest of roster with money left..
Rose
Fournier or Crabbe
Melo
Kp
Gasol or noah
(We should also note that Rose is currently involved in a sexual assault suit that is currently making its way through the Los Angeles court system)."
Do I get your acknowledgement about being wrong now or later?
Link - ( New Window )
He absolutely positively hates the Knicks lol He's so easy to provoke
IMO, if you are going in with Rose, might as well try for Noah. Hes a guy who rebounds, defends, and doesnt require any touches. Plus he is still an excellent passer (so is Pau though).
Dont need to him to shoot. Again if healthy.... one of the best passing/defending bigs in the league.
His on-court confidence is fine. He wont admit this but I do think the orbital bone fracture set him back mentally a bit. All offseason, all the stories and all his comments were about not having to rehabilitate an injury for the first time since 2011. Then, less than an hour into the first practice, its here we go again. Granted, its not a knee. But it was still a setback, particularly with the lingering vision issues. I think him ditching the mask is a good sign. And I also think him stringing together games in healthy fashion is also good for him. I would disagree with you that his athletic ability is still there. It may be, but it hasnt been on display much yet. Even in last seasons playoffs, that was a much more dynamic and athletic Rose. So the Bulls have to hope that player is still there and hes just intent on stringing games together without an injury for now and will find another gear. As for calling isos for him, this offense is about reading and reacting to the defense. There are very few set play calls. So its on Rose to push the ball up and be more aggressive. He said in training camp that he believes he can average seven assists per game with this many offensive options. And the pick-and-pop game with Pau Gasol has been consistent for the Bulls. So maybe hes more focused on being a playmaker for now.
Fournier or Crabbe something like 4 years 60 to 65 million
Fill out rest of roster with money left..
Rose
Fournier or Crabbe
Melo
Kp
Gasol or noah
I'm hoping this is the idea. Phil saw how much better the PG market is next year and decided to use his money this year to fill SG and C. We shall see.
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we just throwing out the last 2 seasons for Noah going into his age 32 season for some reason? 96 total games played (so missed about 50%) 6.3 and 9.4 43% from the field. This season 38% from the field... he's 6'11
Dont need to him to shoot. Again if healthy.... one of the best passing/defending bigs in the league.
If healthy? He's missed at least 18 games per season EVERY year of his career except 3. He's played 70+ games 3/9 seasons (2 of which were his first 2 in the league)
I can't even imagine why anyone would take the time to ask Marbury this question. How long has it been? How long has he been completely irrelevant? Why would Marburys opinion matter, to anyone on the planet?
Would they play SG? Would Melo?
It's necessary for KP to play C if you want Durant/LeBron.
Knicks acquire: Derrick Rose, Justin Holiday, 2017 second-round pick
The writing has been on the wall in Chicago for months: Trying to keep both Derrick Rose and Jimmy Butler happy in the same backcourt was proving to be an exercise in futility, and Roses injury history, coupled with his increasingly inefficient play, made him the more expendable of Chicagos two max-money guards.
New York clearly sensed an opportunity to acquire a name player who fills a position of major need and was available at a low price.Derrick is one of the top point guards in the NBA who is playoff-battle-tested, new coach Jeff Hornacek claimed in a press release. Thats simply not true.
While Rose, 27, was the 2011 MVP and an All-Star as recently as 2012, his long history of knee issues has left him a shell of his former self. Last season, he managed to play 66 gamesafter playing just 100 combined in the previous four yearsbut he graded out well below average at his position by the major advanced metrics. According to ESPNs Real Plus-Minus, Roses -4.23 RPM ranked No. 81 among 85 point guards, topping only walking disaster Ty Lawson among players who appeared in at least 60 games.
Part of me thinks Noah is a lock to come here, from new York, friends with rose and Melo, Phil supposedly loves his game, great fit next to kp...
If it's a 1+1 deals I am down...
I'd then go hard after Derozan or Batum, more than likely though better chance at Fournier or crabbe
I want players who can help an "okay" roster make the playoffs and challenge in a series. Not a guy who you "hope" to get 65 games and hope he's healthy enough to play a playoff game. Otherwise what is the point? Adding a bunch of fragile players seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
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with a guy like Noah, you only want to play him around 66-70 games. He is always going to get banged up. But I think the new NBA is showing that playing 75-80 games is not good for the long run. If monitored properly, he can still be an asset.
I want players who can help an "okay" roster make the playoffs and challenge in a series. Not a guy who you "hope" to get 65 games and hope he's healthy enough to play a playoff game. Otherwise what is the point? Adding a bunch of fragile players seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
With Rose + a Noah/Batum.... your making the playoffs. And if Noah is healthy then, anything can happen. Again asking Rose and Noah to be healthy is a big risk.... but for 1 year? Why the hell not.
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In comment 13004754 DanMetroMan said:
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You know Dolan loves him some PG's with sex charges against them #Knicks
What are you talking about? Stop with this crap. It's old and done.
No it isn't. He had a trial date scheduled.
I mistakenly thought he was referring to IT. Whatever it's still annoying to read his initials mentioned in every other Knicks thread.
Obviously Pau offers you more offense and less chance of injury than Noah, who will offer you more defense. But KP offers a lot of rim protection, and the combination of Gasol and KPs offensive games could make the team more lethal on that side of the court.
Although I'd love Noah just so he could bitch Lebron, who, pussy that he is, decided to take a swipe at the Knicks during the Cleveland parade today.
Obviously Pau offers you more offense and less chance of injury than Noah, who will offer you more defense. But KP offers a lot of rim protection, and the combination of Gasol and KPs offensive games could make the team more lethal on that side of the court.
Although I'd love Noah just so he could bitch Lebron, who, pussy that he is, decided to take a swipe at the Knicks during the Cleveland parade today.
I think the assumption is Noah's ties to NYC, sister lives here, went to school here for a bit etc + Rose are why he'd be interested more than Phil Jackson connection.
Ugh, not giving this bum a max contract
I hope that means for a lot less than the max. If they really wanted him they wouldn't just reach out. They'd offer him the max.
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plan to reach out to Howard. 100% confirmed by someone who would know.
I hope that means for a lot less than the max. If they really wanted him they wouldn't just reach out. They'd offer him the max.
I'm guessing it means to garner potential interest. Howard in the past through "friends" has shown interest in NY. Worth noting McHale thinks Howard is MUCH diminished physically and he would seemingly know.
Or D12. I might start calling him D6.5 because he fell off so much.
Glad to see Marbury bringing an opinion here though. About as worthless as tits on a bull! No pun intended
Going no where fast, just like the Yankees!
Please god no D12. No. No. No. NOOOOOOO. No.
I just think Noah is falling apart. Gasol still seems like a guy who can win a game by himself once in a while. Gasol was absolutely dominant for Spain in Eurobasket. Guy can still really play.
And no I don't want to sign him or give him the max
The only thing working in Howard's favor is I think he will be motivated to prove he can still dominate...
So you would have2 motivated former stars on this team..
I think he fits next to kp but I don't think there is enough shots for him to be happy
The Knicks are expected to have at least $30 million in cap space this summer.
Last offseason, the Knicks signed Robin Lopez to a four-year contract and he had a productive season.
The Knicks' top priorities this offseason have been their backcourt and it is unclear what level of interest they would have in signing Howard.
IAN BEGLEY/ESPN
While Rose, 27, was the 2011 MVP and an All-Star as recently as 2012, his long history of knee issues has left him a shell of his former self. Last season, he managed to play 66 gamesafter playing just 100 combined in the previous four yearsbut he graded out well below average at his position by the major advanced metrics. According to ESPNs Real Plus-Minus, Roses -4.23 RPM ranked No. 81 among 85 point guards, topping only walking disaster Ty Lawson among players who appeared in at least 60 games.
Well, at least he was terrible, but not constantly drunk terrible.
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Steve Popper
@StevePopper
Robin Lopez is a nice guy in the locker room, solid center, too. But if you can get Westbrook plus x next summer by moving him...yeah.
Link - ( New Window )
It's a one year prove it deal. Hardly the same as signing someone like Amare to a 5 year max deal.
Rose has been injured but really came on in the second half of last year and will look great in the pick and roll with KP. Whether or not we sign anyone big I think we are unequivocally more attractive to free agents on the chance that Rose does continue the upward slope to his play that he enjoyed last season. He is a good passer and while not the best defender, anyone is better than Calderon.
Also it's been said but there was no one at PG available in the market we got ourselves cap space and now have a ton of options at center. Phil has shown he gets players at his price on reasonable contracts, all of the FAs last year showed that, who is to say we can't get D12 or Pau on a very reasonable contract?
I'm as pissed off about the years of bad Knicks teams as anyone and yes it's possible this trade doesn't work out well but all trades are gambles and above all I think Phil has more information than us. People were whining about what happened with Chandler but that made room for Lopez who now people are up in arms about. Phil turned Tim Hardaway Jr. into something that was a trade chip.
This might not work out but there is sound probabilistic reasoning behind it, we had the worst back court in the league last year.
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
but he's a former MVP! He'll do better on the "big stage"! Phil knows what he's doing!
It's not even remotely "classic" Knicks. Did they trade a first round pick? THAT is "classic" Knicks. Are they locked into anything long-term? Being handcuffed to guys you can't get rid of is "classic" Knicks. It's debatable whether they could've gotten more for RoLo, but otherwise, they didn't give up a lot and they didn't get roped into any long and stupid contracts. In that sense, I'm not sure how anyone can be vociferously angry about the deal.
This is the thing. We all know that Howard is better than Lopez but not when you factor in a 30 million in salary.
Teams keep referencing the cap as an obstacle w/ trades. "Why do I want to trade a $7m player knowing it will cost me $14m to replace him?"
and he's about to opt out of a deal that would have paid him $22 million.
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
It's not even remotely "classic" Knicks. Did they trade a first round pick? THAT is "classic" Knicks. Are they locked into anything long-term? Being handcuffed to guys you can't get rid of is "classic" Knicks. It's debatable whether they could've gotten more for RoLo, but otherwise, they didn't give up a lot and they didn't get roped into any long and stupid contracts. In that sense, I'm not sure how anyone can be vociferously angry about the deal.
not every Knick trade is an Eddy Curry like disaster. Sometimes you have mini-fuckups like Steve Francis which ended up costing them Ariza.
Bogut played 12 minutes per game in the Finals before he got hurt. The Cavs just flat-out stopped playing their "center" Channing Frye and Mozgov was nowhere to be found. I don't buy that replacing RoLo is this super-important/expensive thing that needs to be done. I'd love Gasol because he's still well, but spending a lot of money on Howard or some of the other options that have been mentioned isn't necessary.
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In comment 13005315 Deej said:
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
He retweeted Ballow who then corrected himself and said the pick was 2017.
don't worry - Phil has something up his sleeve! I heard it on BBI.
CORRECTION: #Knicks receive 2017 2nd round pick in the deal. No picks at the moment for tomorrow night.
not every Knick trade is an Eddy Curry like disaster. Sometimes you have mini-fuckups like Steve Francis which ended up costing them Ariza.
Who's Trevor Ariza in this scenario... Jerian Grant? Someone earlier brought up the Bulls' current roster as the "right way" to build a team. If Grant had shown what Bobby Portis or Mirotic (he's not the best example, I know) showed as rookies, they wouldn't have done this trade. If he'd been a lottery pick like Doug McD., they probably wouldn't have traded him so early. He might turn out to be a really good player... every trade has risks. But I can't fault Phil for moving on this quickly.
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Russillo @ryenarussillo Jun 21
Teams keep referencing the cap as an obstacle w/ trades. "Why do I want to trade a $7m player knowing it will cost me $14m to replace him?"
This is a dumb parallel. If the Knicks feel they can sign Noah or Gasol for LESS than what RoLo made, while also developing a young guy who plays the same position (Willy), how is it costing them double to replace him with an admittedly older player with a not-so-steep drop off in production?
Then on top of that, they potentially have a piece that improves one of their biggest weaknesses tenfold. All the while keeping the same cap space, and making more cap space for next year.
This is a dumb parallel. If the Knicks feel they can sign Noah or Gasol for LESS than what RoLo made, while also developing a young guy who plays the same position (Willy), how is it costing them double to replace him with an admittedly older player with a not-so-steep drop off in production?
did I say it was an exact parallel? Holy fuck. The point is that a lot of guys signed under last year's cap are going to be bargains going forward. That obviously wasn't important to Phil.
Except Rose wasn't good last year. And even if he is he might walk next summer anyway. So you're back to having a gaping hole at the position. Except this time it's worse because you no longer have a former first round pick with some upside who might contribute. But the bright side is that you might get 25 games of Noah...or maybe the decline years of Pau!
Shumpert with a better shot from 3?
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This is a dumb parallel. If the Knicks feel they can sign Noah or Gasol for LESS than what RoLo made, while also developing a young guy who plays the same position (Willy), how is it costing them double to replace him with an admittedly older player with a not-so-steep drop off in production?
did I say it was an exact parallel? Holy fuck. The point is that a lot of guys signed under last year's cap are going to be bargains going forward. That obviously wasn't important to Phil.
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Then on top of that, they potentially have a piece that improves one of their biggest weaknesses tenfold. All the while keeping the same cap space, and making more cap space for next year.
Except Rose wasn't good last year. And even if he is he might walk next summer anyway. So you're back to having a gaping hole at the position. Except this time it's worse because you no longer have a former first round pick with some upside who might contribute. But the bright side is that you might get 25 games of Noah...or maybe the decline years of Pau!
Right, except now they've filled the PG hole for the next year, instead of being forced to spend a max on a PG when there are limited options available.
This covers up the PG hole until there is a much bigger market at the position. At the end of the day, it's a potential (albeit temporary) solution to the massive hole in the backcourt. And if they sign a stopgap 5 like Gasol while giving Willy time to develop, you mitigate the loss of RoLo somewhat.
I would have preferred to keep Grant and see what he developed into. But the fact that they included him in the deal makes me believe that they were going to try to upgrade at PG regardless.
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mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
Shumpert with a better shot from 3?
That would be a major coup as a throw in to this deal.
Second, RoLo sucked. I'm sorry, but watching that doofus mishandle the ball, play defense with his hands down and be generally unaware on the court was infuriating.
Rose for a year with a possibility of bringing in a real big man in Howard and then Westbrook after Rose becomes a FA is definitely a decent trade off.
Who is really considering Rose as a long term answer at point?
could be a guy. We will see.
Link - ( New Window )
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mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
could be a guy. We will see.
Why even respond? Thanks for that groundbreaking analysis.
I'm in on this trade. I think the Knicks today are a better team.
I think he would for a few reasons. Dwight has always wanted respect and fame and to win in a big market. I think Phil can sell him on that and playing with some other stars. A young big that he can form a great defensive tandem with that doesn't need to be in the paint on O. Also I think we are a good match with Phil, it's pretty clear that teams have soured on him as a person, that makes him a less attractive free agent. If there are teams offering him the max, I don't think they are competitive ones. There is definitely a perception that he isn't a great guy to have in your locker room we can arbitrage that by having someone like Phil that can manage egos like his well.
Also with the cap going up it is possible he might want to prove himself again and sign one last big deal. I could see him signing like 4 years $80M with opt outs every year.
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In comment 13005368 Jon in NYC said:
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mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
could be a guy. We will see.
Why even respond? Thanks for that groundbreaking analysis.
Uh, you're welcome
Did you mean 2016? The video's titled "Derrick Rose 2016 - Welcome to the Knicks.."
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hyped, take a look at this highlight tape for D Rose using only 2015 clips. Link - ( New Window )
Did you mean 2016? The video's titled "Derrick Rose 2016 - Welcome to the Knicks.."
Well the 2015-2016 season.
Also, has anyone figured out why Tony Wroten was cut?
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In comment 13005381 Jon in NYC said:
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hyped, take a look at this highlight tape for D Rose using only 2015 clips. Link - ( New Window )
Did you mean 2016? The video's titled "Derrick Rose 2016 - Welcome to the Knicks.."
Well the 2015-2016 season.
Also, has anyone figured out why Tony Wroten was cut?
I read a tweet it was to make the deal work financially but I can't figure out why the knicks would need to cut him
Jalen Rose said he's a very good player. Looks like he'll be our backup SG
Hornacek watched film of all three point guards currently on the roster and demanded that they all disappear from the roster.
Seriously, I've never seen a team clear out all their players at one position before today. Sure, we got Rose back, but still ...
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In comment 13005389 Canton said:
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In comment 13005381 Jon in NYC said:
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hyped, take a look at this highlight tape for D Rose using only 2015 clips. Link - ( New Window )
Did you mean 2016? The video's titled "Derrick Rose 2016 - Welcome to the Knicks.."
Well the 2015-2016 season.
Also, has anyone figured out why Tony Wroten was cut?
I read a tweet it was to make the deal work financially but I can't figure out why the knicks would need to cut him
Yeah, trying to figure that out myself.
When watching him, he looked like a more athletic Ronnie Brewer. I am really not sold on his 3 point shot.
Maybe bring back Novak too
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
The knicks would potentially have a tough to guard lineup down the stretch of games
4 guys who can knock down the 3 with rose running pick and roll with Melo or kp...pretty dangerous if rose can be healthy
I think at this point anymore no matter what the Knicks do in the eyes of the media and casual fan that Knicks will have always been on the losing end.
Any other team in the league make the same move, everyone would be talking about what a great move to acquire a former MVP who is in a contract year.
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Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
Rose is different than Melo. Howard is different than both. I'm in all of a sudden.
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Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
Langston Galloway is the better player than Grant. But both are extremely similar.
Btw, would love the Knicks to draft Bambrey in the 2nd for a little St. Joe's connection. 😉
Westbrook had a career high of 69 this season. 375 dunks for his career.
I remember when this was a debate. I really hope Rose can make it interesting again.
Westbrook had a career high of 69 this season. 375 dunks for his career.
I remember when this was a debate. I really hope Rose can make it interesting again.
Pretty sure he had a dunk last year against the Knicks. It was a weak backside one in NY. Could be wrong. I don't remember him having any others last year.
It's likely imo that Phil also signs Gasol. If you say that Melo and Butler are about equal at this point, then the Knicks have basically the core that won 42 games for Bulls last year.
Then throw in that KP is way better than Mitoric (sp?) and KOQ about as good as Taj Gibson, the Knicks should win 45+ and make it to the second round of the playoffs. (obviously, it won't necessarily work out that way but just roll with it for comparison's sake)
If the team is a total bust, then you trade guys at the deadline and blow the whole thing up. Gasol will be a very tradeable commodity. Melo will also bring back some picks.
I don't really see how anyone can say this is a bad trade. Lopez is never going to be worth more than he is now. Grant is a back-up at best. Calderone is addition by subtraction.
Also, this makes Knicks more attractive to free agents. Yeah, they probably won't land a big fish. But if for some reason Durant wants to leave this year, he can now look at the Knicks and say they could be a legit contender with him in the lineup (assuming they sign Gasol)
because Isola is still stuck in the 90s when it comes to his brand of "analysis". The game passed him by years ago.
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Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
woj isn't giving analysis here. He's reporting what he's hearing - which is the only thing he's good at.
because Howard, while still somewhat effective, is a declining player that's going to cost a TON of money to sign - and Rose is currently a bad player that even if he turns around, can leave after next season.
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
you say that "they've filled the PG hole for a year" like it's a meaningful accomplishment. It's not.
You're not supposed to trade assets for a temporary solution if you're not a contender. This is team building 101. The goal should be to max out the value on every single transaction - not patching holes here and there while creating new ones. If the pieces don't necessarily fit right away, be patient.
or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
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He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Deppers, I don't know if you commented on Holiday at all. What kind of player are the Knicks getting?
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But if this team got Howard in addition to Rise, how can you NOT like the talent on this team?
because Howard, while still somewhat effective, is a declining player that's going to cost a TON of money to sign - and Rose is currently a bad player that even if he turns around, can leave after next season.
I agree with that at all. In fact you're wrong Enzo. As you are quite often because you insist on making negatively superlative comments in any discussion you're involved in.
A "bad" player? He's far from that and offers more as a guard than anything we had last year. We only have him a year and then he either walks or we resign him because he was good. He can penetrate and also hit the three.
As far as Howard, he is a trim protector who can finish inside. When did we last have that? And I don't think he'd cost as much as you think
The only upside is that now other stars might look at the Knicks as a more attractive destination.
I'm convinced that Rose will get hurt and end up playing less than 30 games. I hope I am wrong.
Even if he stays healthy, I am not happy how this will affect KP's development. To have both Melo and DRose, KP might only score on putback dunks. I hope Horny is a better coach than the last few offense-challenged ones we've had.
Do people even know the player they're discussing?
Lopez is a complementary player. In the NBA, you have to secure star players. This makes the Knicks way more attractive to big free agents. We all know--and so does Phil--that the chances are not great of a big fish coming to MSG. But you still have try on the off chance you can reel a guy in. Phil did that with this trade without sacrificing the future. He even secured a second round pick.
So, I agree with you that this trade does not transform the Knicks into contenders but I don't really see much of a downside.
chop - I like your thinking. Just one question - what's a "trim protector who can finish inside"? Sounds interesting.
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In comment 13005439 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
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He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Deppers, I don't know if you commented on Holiday at all. What kind of player are the Knicks getting?
In the same mold as a Ronnie Brewer, maybe a tad more athletic. I am not sure on his 3 game though. He did shoot it at a high level, but I was wondering how much came in at garbage time.
Ill say this much, he got a lot of PT and starts at the end of the year when the Bulls were still fighting for a playoff spot. 15-20 minutes per game should be his limit.
They signed him based off liking his game though. Maybe he hasn't really healed to the point they'd want.
stats say he was among the worst PGs in the league last year. What do you have? And saying he's better than what we had last year isn't saying much at all. That shouldn't be the goal.
he can hit the three? Do you watch basketball? Please go the fuck away.
well Lopez was a damn good rim protector and he was signed on a cheap deal for 3 more years and was in his prime and doesn't have a history of back problems. Howard is on the wrong side of 30 and just opted out of a $22 million salary for next season. Do you really think he's coming cheap?
I'm sorry but you're either really misinformed or stuck in the past or just a fucking idiot.
Lopez is a complementary player. In the NBA, you have to secure star players. This makes the Knicks way more attractive to big free agents. We all know--and so does Phil--that the chances are not great of a big fish coming to MSG. But you still have try on the off chance you can reel a guy in. Phil did that with this trade without sacrificing the future. He even secured a second round pick.
So, I agree with you that this trade does not transform the Knicks into contenders but I don't really see much of a downside.
bahahaha to anyone that thinks stars are coming here to play with a broken down Rose.
2. We gave up basically some guys. I like Lopez, he's a nice effort guy. With limited upside. Grant may turn out to be a player down the road, but he looked lost this past season. And let's be honest, the Knicks are trying to build a winner for what's left of the Melo era.
Oh yeah, and the Bulls now get the privilege of saving a seat on their bench for the corpse of Jose Calderon.
I didn't realize Hornacek's Knick offense (which nobody knows anything about at this point) will have magical healing powers for guys who are below average three point shooters.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
Lopez was fantastic fit w KP. 28 & healthy. Thrived as he learned the offense in 2nd half of season. Took burden off budding KP at the 5.
Probably most important: Lopez's deal -- the one that uninformed fans thought was too expensive -- is incredibly affordable one week from now.
The person with the most NBA ringz just traded for a scorer that has 1 season with a ts% better than league average and last 3 under 50%.
Games - ts%
10 - 44.6%
51 - 49.3%
66 - 47.9%
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
Thanks for the info, Dep.
Robin Lopez averaged the same amount of blocks as Howard so the idea that he's a way better rim protector isn't true. Offensive Rebounds PG are identical, Howard gets 4 more defensive rebounds per game and almost leads the league in personal fouls per game while shooting terrible from the FT line unlike Rolo (49% versus 79.5%. It's a mixed bag but for the price Rolo was a solid center.
Melo is going to benefit greatly from him. Ill definitely be rooting for him and the Knicks to have a big year. He deserves it. Ill tell you what the biggest problem with Rose is...... Reggie.
He is what he has been, he gets his points attacking the basket. He's not a particularly effective or efficient shooter, either. He's a prototype slasher who used to have sick athleticism and now does not.
We can talk about this all night, but not if we're going to say things like Hornacek's offense for this team, which nobody knows anything about yet, is going to grant Rose a skill he's never shown the talent for.
The two could not play together inside, which is why during the second half of the season KP was mostly outside the circle. Not only that, Lopez fumbles the ball about 50% of the time you pass it to him. He tries hard and is a smart player but his lack of athleticism makes him very limited. That's why he has never played starter's minutes.
Horny said he was going to incorporate it. But of course that could have just been window dressing.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
I'm sure once in a while you'll see a glimpse of his old self and the 12-year-olds will ooh and aah but trading for a guy like this is just dumb on several levels when you have so few rotation players under contract. He may have value down the road as a bench scorer for a contender - but the Knicks aren't a contender and they're asking him to play big mins.
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The Knicks are abandoning the triangle next year.
Horny said he was going to incorporate it. But of course that could have just been window dressing.
I just don't see how that's possible with Rose but I guess we'll see.
I expect a lot of pick and rolls and pick and pops with Melo and kp tough to guard...
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
You can't even admit there is upside to this deal...
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I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
I'm sure once in a while you'll see a glimpse of his old self and the 12-year-olds will ooh and aah but trading for a guy like this is just dumb on several levels when you have so few rotation players under contract. He may have value down the road as a bench scorer for a contender - but the Knicks aren't a contender and they're asking him to play big mins.
Well he did it for a three month stretch to end this year....so I wouldnt dismiss it entirely.
Ten Ten: I get what you are saying but there were a lot of times guys did not pass him in the ball because of his bad hands. His bad hands are also why he is not a good rebounder.
I like Lopez. He was a very pleasant surprise last year. Overall, he played well. But let's not overvalue a guy who averaged 10 points per game on a 32 win team.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Wow. well said. Very good post
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
This isn't a team built like Phoenix. So why would he do the same thing? When asked, he has said he would work with what he has. Everyone that I've read commenting on the hire has said he knows basketball well enough not to be committed to just one style of play.
The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Look, there's some value in what you're saying, but there's no player on the Knicks as good as Lillard for Portland, or Lebron, who can carry a team by himself, or Curry and Thompson, who shoot like future hall of famers.
Lopez wasn't the reason Portland was good, and the Warriors can not need a center because they're absolutely packed with talent doing unprecedented things. This isn't a "Let's just be the warriors" situation.
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If you watched any of the games he coached, you know exactly what he is going to do: push the ball up the middle of the court with a guy on each wing and a big man trailing the play who slashes to the basket. That big man will be KP. He is going to get a lot of easy hoops.
If they don't score in transition, then I imagine they will go into the triangle--or more likely a modified form of it. But Hornacek is all about transition basketball. It should be a fun team to watch.
This isn't a team built like Phoenix. So why would he do the same thing? When asked, he has said he would work with what he has. Everyone that I've read commenting on the hire has said he knows basketball well enough not to be committed to just one style of play.
Fair enough. But considering the Knicks only have around 5 or 6 players under contract, I would say the character of the team is still being molded.
You can't even admit there is upside to this deal... [/quote]
sure there's upside, but it expires at the end of next season. Which makes it nearly meaningless.
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And Enzo we get it now you hate the trade how many times are you going to say the exact same thing?
You can't even admit there is upside to this deal...
sure there's upside, but it expires at the end of next season. Which makes it nearly meaningless. [/quote]
dude - you've made clear you hate the trade. How about you pipe down until November or so when we see how it plays out.
And I totally believe you guys who are saying that the deal could blow up in the Knicks faces, but I think it is worth the risk.
If he sucks you let him go and have 35 million to spend in the best point GUARD free agency in years...
The guy is still only 27 and did improve as the season went on, sure there are risks but it's not like this team is a finished product and it can't be improved anymore because of this tradd..
They can still add a lot of pieces to this team to make it better, they also now have 3 picks in next year's draft as well
using this logic, should we trade everyone else of value?
Interesting point. So you're saying Lopez is better than Tristan Thompson and on a cheaper contract - so we should trade him for a broken down rental?
But yeah, I get it. All we have to do is get LeBron, only one of the top 2-3 players who ever lived....or maybe the best shooting backcourt in the history of thee league that includes the two-time MVP....and we can win with any random bigs. I like this strategy!
Per 48
Post A/S 31.0 7.9 5.4 4.4 .524 .483 4.4
MVP Year 32.1 9.9 5.2 4.4 .445 .332 8.8
Grant you can argue is the only future asset they gave up
you have the inside track to commit major money over 5 years to a guy who hasn't played a full season in 5 years, has had major knee problems, and who requires elite athleticism in order to be effective - and you think this is a good thing?
but then you also have to fill the giant hole at center you created.
Pts Ast Reb TO FG% FT% FTA
Post A/S 31.0 7.9 5.4 4.4 .524 .483 4.4
MVP Year 32.1 9.9 5.2 4.4 .445 .332 8.8
If you want Pau as a replacement, fine, but be aware that he's not a good defensive player these days, and he's very old.
And have you watched the nba recently? The center position is starting to become the 3rd forward position...
Really no need to spend big bucks on the center position
A rookie who's not actually in the NBA yet, a slow-footed forward who had a forgettable season and is always in foul trouble for stupid reason, and Porzingis. That's worse "depth" than the Knicks had at PG last season.
And have you watched the nba recently? The center position is starting to become the 3rd forward position...
Really no need to spend big bucks on the center position
exactly. Plus we will probably sign someone.
Enzo, no disrespect but chill for a bit and see what else happens. Knicks only have 5 players on their roster. Further moves are def gonna happen.
Sleep it off you're gonna wake up tomorrow and realize we gained a pg and draft pick, didn't lose cap room. Took a shot but very little risk. Team building 101? Phil has been taking the long game approach the entire tenure here and this trade didn't really deviate. Relax.
A rookie who's not actually in the NBA yet, a slow-footed forward who had a forgettable season and is always in foul trouble for stupid reason, and Porzingis. That's worse "depth" than the Knicks had at PG last season.
Free agency also has not even started yet...we have no idea who is going to be on the roster after tomorrow let alone at the start of the season...
I was just stating depending on the route they go in free agency it is not crazy if the knicks done sign a big name center...
They may go the cheap route like many teams do nowadays
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slow start. And they still only won 32 games. The head coach still got fired midseason. The team was still an abomination in the second half of the season.
using this logic, should we trade everyone else of value?
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The team that let RoLo walk STILL made the playoffs in the Western Conference with Mason Plumlee playing center. The 2 teams that just played a 7 game Finals series played without centers most of the time and when they did use one, the guy wasn't as good as RoLo was.
Interesting point. So you're saying Lopez is better than Tristan Thompson and on a cheaper contract - so we should trade him for a broken down rental?
But yeah, I get it. All we have to do is get LeBron, only one of the top 2-3 players who ever lived....or maybe the best shooting backcourt in the history of thee league that includes the two-time MVP....and we can win with any random bigs. I like this strategy!
The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers combined for ZERO playoff series wins this postseason. The sport has changed... you don't need an elite center (or even a good one) to be a good team. Heck, you don't even need one to be a Championship team (no, Tristan is not a center). The sport has simply changed. You need guards, especially a PG, and wings to win. If trading Lopez makes it easier to bring in the elite wing/backcourt players, then it had to be done. The Knicks had the best (or 2nd best depending on who you read) rim defense in the sport this season and what did it get them?
I think a truly legitimate argument is asking did they get enough in return for him. But the objection to the trade can't be "How are we gonna replace Robin Lopez?".
The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers combined for ZERO playoff series wins this postseason. The sport has changed... you don't need an elite center (or even a good one) to be a good team. Heck, you don't even need one to be a Championship team (no, Tristan is not a center). The sport has simply changed. You need guards, especially a PG, and wings to win. If trading Lopez makes it easier to bring in the elite wing/backcourt players, then it had to be done. The Knicks had the best (or 2nd best depending on who you read) rim defense in the sport this season and what did it get them?
I think a truly legitimate argument is asking did they get enough in return for him. But the objection to the trade can't be "How are we gonna replace Robin Lopez?".
Well said.
Yes, it is considering the PG upgrades available in FA were crap this year. And they need significant upgrades at the 1 AND the 2. This COULD be a solid upgrade at one of those two positions, with a slight downgrade at the 5 (to go along with slightly less money as well) potentially.
So what would you have proposed the Knicks do to improve the backcourt? This FA class is underwhelming at best. And this doesn't just patch one hole and create a new one. With a decent 5 (again, that can be had in FA with little production drop-off and a better salary than RoLo) you're actually patching a hole, and not creating a significant one. If it works out with Rose then it works out. If not, then it doesn't.
Again, I would have preferred to keep one of RoLo or Grant, but it didn't work out that way. If Rose plays well, and the Knicks improve with this new setup, then the team looks infinitely more attractive next offseason when it counts.
Stop being obtuse. Phil has been looking for a penetrating point guard for the last two years. He made a deal for one that could potentially work out, and if it doesn't they have the wiggle room to go in another direction. This isn't Antonio McDyess. It's a short-term gamble, without giving up the long term pieces. Sure, RoLo is on a good contract, but does he have the potential to be a game-changer? Realistically, you've gotta think that the Knicks see Hernangomez as being able to take over RoLo's spot down the road anyway.
So what would you have proposed the Knicks do to improve the backcourt? This FA class is underwhelming at best. And this doesn't just patch one hole and create a new one. With a decent 5 (again, that can be had in FA with little production drop-off and a better salary than RoLo) you're actually patching a hole, and not creating a significant one. If it works out with Rose then it works out. If not, then it doesn't.
Again, I would have preferred to keep one of RoLo or Grant, but it didn't work out that way. If Rose plays well, and the Knicks improve with this new setup, then the team looks infinitely more attractive next offseason when it counts.
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or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
Stop being obtuse. Phil has been looking for a penetrating point guard for the last two years. He made a deal for one that could potentially work out, and if it doesn't they have the wiggle room to go in another direction. This isn't Antonio McDyess. It's a short-term gamble, without giving up the long term pieces. Sure, RoLo is on a good contract, but does he have the potential to be a game-changer? Realistically, you've gotta think that the Knicks see Hernangomez as being able to take over RoLo's spot down the road anyway.
I dont think we should have done anything much to fix the backcourt. Try to sign a well price FA. Give Grant some run. This season should have been written off. You use your assets to get better in the window when KP will be a star, not to get incrementally better in a hopeless season.
As for whether this is McDyess all over, I dont know why everyone is so happy that this is a short term deal. It just means there is very little upside. Rolo and Grant were two nice long term pieces. Unless Phil is going to get up and say they blew the Grant pick.
How we got the pick is irrelevant.
Cap space isnt all that great. It's likely to disappoint. Best deal in the NBA is guys on rookie deals. That's why you dont see teams selling off #1s to preserve cap space.
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In comment 13005322 Aspano! said:
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In comment 13005315 Deej said:
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
3 years absolutely warrants my hyperbole. Gasol is 35 and Noah is a broken down 32. 3 years for Noah at Lopez money might be the most Knicks move of all time. No offense you said
"If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?" similar deal doesn't read to you as a deal "similar" to Lopez and not simply "a shorter deal that is less than Lopez"? If the Knicks gave Noah 3 years "Lopez-like" money I'd be sick. Noah is closer to a "prove it" guy at this point.
@StarburyMarbury I AM PEACE STAR Retweeted BlindBoxPodcast
He will be the best point guard the Knicks ever had when it's said and done. I believe this is possible!!!I AM PEACE STAR added,
@StarburyMarbury I AM PEACE STAR Retweeted BlindBoxPodcast
He will be the best point guard the Knicks ever had when it's said and done. I believe this is possible!!!I AM PEACE STAR added,
Who cares what this vaseline eater thinks?
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In comment 13005324 DanMetroMan said:
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In comment 13005322 Aspano! said:
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In comment 13005315 Deej said:
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trading for a name notwithstanding a massive decline in the game and injury risk. Dont know how anyone could be happy with this trade unless you're totally blinded by the name "Derrick Rose". Hey, lets sign Dr. J!
If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?
My gripe with the trade is because:
1. It's not certain that the Knicks will go after similar 5 in FA.
2. They gave up quickly on a potential rotational PG in Grant. But they also waived Wroten, which makes little to no sense unless his recovery isn't going well, or they have another move coming.
If #1 does happen, they're making a bet on a PG for one year, while leaving the same amount of cap space to fill the 2 this summer, and more cap space to plug the hole at the 1 next year.
At least they didn't trade away any 1st rounders.
Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way.
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway.
3 years absolutely warrants my hyperbole. Gasol is 35 and Noah is a broken down 32. 3 years for Noah at Lopez money might be the most Knicks move of all time. No offense you said
"If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?" similar deal doesn't read to you as a deal "similar" to Lopez and not simply "a shorter deal that is less than Lopez"? If the Knicks gave Noah 3 years "Lopez-like" money I'd be sick. Noah is closer to a "prove it" guy at this point.
Read my post again. I said obviously not for 3 years. The hyperbole was in reference to the extra 3M.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Link - ( New Window )
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
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My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
In terms of annual salary I'm not going to flip out over giving a guy 1-2-3 million more than ideal but my reaction was more about years. A guy like Noah should not be guaranteed good money at 3 years. I've always liked him but there is a very real chance he's on a real decline. If anything I'd love to see the Knicks sign someone like Noah for 1 year with a team option. For once let's be the ones in the drivers seat.
I hope Rose doesn't get hurt getting off the plane.
Do you ever stop shaking your head? The whole SMH thing is dumb.
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In comment 13005734 DanMetroMan said:
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My initial response was before your clarification.
You- "If they can get an older 5 to replace RoLo, like Pau or Noah on a similar deal, do you think it's a terrible deal still?"
Me-"Giving Noah or Pau the same deal as Lopez would be absolutely atrocious.One of those 2 at $13,219,250, $13,788,500, $14,357,750, ? No freakin way. "
You "
Obviously not for the same amount of time. And I have no idea how much either guy would command this FA.
Given that his contract accounted for ~11% of the cap this year, assuming the percentage stays the same it'd be around 10M per year this year. He's going to want more than 7.8M (that's what he would have made this year I believe). Ok, so say it's at about 10M for year, not 13M which would be the RoLo number (even though I said similar). I don't think that 3M difference warrants the hyperbole on your end. Personally I was imagining him being offered a contract around 10M per year anyway. "
At what point in your original message did you suggest "sort of near Lopez money at obviously shorter years"? "on a similar deal" reads as a deal similar to what Lopez got/has. Not sure how it could be read any other way.
Sorry for the confusion. My prior posts mentioned how I'd look at Noah or Gasol on 1 + 1 type deals. By similar I meant in regards to money, since giving either of them more money per year than RoLo wouldn't be prudent.
In terms of annual salary I'm not going to flip out over giving a guy 1-2-3 million more than ideal but my reaction was more about years. A guy like Noah should not be guaranteed good money at 3 years. I've always liked him but there is a very real chance he's on a real decline. If anything I'd love to see the Knicks sign someone like Noah for 1 year with a team option. For once let's be the ones in the drivers seat.
Ahhhh ok, so we're in agreement then. I'd prefer if the Knicks stick to what they did with DWill and Afflalo as far as deal structure. If Willy can develop into a rotational piece, I think he should take over at the 5. In reality the 5 isn't going to be nearly as important for this time so long as KP is on the roster.
Who else? They need a starting center, starting shooting guard, back-up small forward, back-up point guard, back-up shooting guard. Do they re-sign D-Will at a higher price? I have heard that he would like to return, and he fits with Hornacek's up-tempo approach. Do they have any kind of hold on Early, and do they care? They can make a qualifying offer on Galloway, but I am not sure they will.
Thoughts?
This seems to be mostly about 2017 anyway. Is it?
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In comment 13005172 Jon in NYC said:
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Use your fucking head for a change. Numerous NBA players are commenting on this on twitter. And it's not because they're surprised Robin Lopez is relocating. Rose is a big name.
bahahaha. Numerous players? You're actually impressed by that?
It has nothing to do with impressed. It's an objective fact.
You want to tell us who these players are and what they're saying? So far, although you seem irritated with other posters, it's unclear what your position is.
Weird. I want Chris Childs flashbacks.
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.
Weird. I want Chris Childs flashbacks.
Fuck that.. I'd rather he honor the great Mardy Collins.
Big shoes to fill.
(This is what we're reduced to as Knicks fans.)
Big shoes to fill.
How about #25 Bill Cartwright? He was a 1st round pick who netted the Oak Tree in a trade.