mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
Jalen Rose said he's a very good player. Looks like he'll be our backup SG
mostly a throw in, but what do we think of Justin Holiday? He's one of I believe 5 people on the roster right now, so he has a pretty good shot at making the team by default. Apparently he's a great defender and shot .433 from 3 in limited minutes with the Bulls last year.
When watching him, he looked like a more athletic Ronnie Brewer. I am really not sold on his 3 point shot.
the impact KP has made on Phil's thinking for team building. Last year he brought in KOQ Lopez Serephin to add pieces around Melo. With KP'a emergence and NOW the future of the team the construction of it has changed. Long term I believe they see Poezingas as a 5 so their thinking will revolve around that. This deal can't be looked at on its own. It has to be seen from the context of the entire off season. Let's see what the team looks like Nov 1 and then maybe pass judgement. I will wait
Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
I think at this point anymore no matter what the Knicks do in the eyes of the media and casual fan that Knicks will have always been on the losing end.
Any other team in the league make the same move, everyone would be talking about what a great move to acquire a former MVP who is in a contract year.
Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
But if this team got Howard in addition to Rise, how can you NOT like the talent on this team? Howard and KriPro in the paint on D is very scary. I am with this. Adding Durant would be a redundancy to Melo. And this wouldn't be guys getting together and stacking a team for themselves. This would be a nice collection of castoffs that might have motivating factors for coming here.
Rose is different than Melo. Howard is different than both. I'm in all of a sudden.
Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
Langston Galloway is the better player than Grant. But both are extremely similar.
Btw, would love the Knicks to draft Bambrey in the 2nd for a little St. Joe's connection. 😉
He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron). 94 career dunks for D Rose.
Westbrook had a career high of 69 this season. 375 dunks for his career.
I remember when this was a debate. I really hope Rose can make it interesting again.
Pretty sure he had a dunk last year against the Knicks. It was a weak backside one in NY. Could be wrong. I don't remember him having any others last year.
If Rose sucks or gets injured, he is gone after the season.
It's likely imo that Phil also signs Gasol. If you say that Melo and Butler are about equal at this point, then the Knicks have basically the core that won 42 games for Bulls last year.
Then throw in that KP is way better than Mitoric (sp?) and KOQ about as good as Taj Gibson, the Knicks should win 45+ and make it to the second round of the playoffs. (obviously, it won't necessarily work out that way but just roll with it for comparison's sake)
If the team is a total bust, then you trade guys at the deadline and blow the whole thing up. Gasol will be a very tradeable commodity. Melo will also bring back some picks.
I don't really see how anyone can say this is a bad trade. Lopez is never going to be worth more than he is now. Grant is a back-up at best. Calderone is addition by subtraction.
Also, this makes Knicks more attractive to free agents. Yeah, they probably won't land a big fish. But if for some reason Durant wants to leave this year, he can now look at the Knicks and say they could be a legit contender with him in the lineup (assuming they sign Gasol)
Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
woj isn't giving analysis here. He's reporting what he's hearing - which is the only thing he's good at.
But if this team got Howard in addition to Rise, how can you NOT like the talent on this team?
because Howard, while still somewhat effective, is a declining player that's going to cost a TON of money to sign - and Rose is currently a bad player that even if he turns around, can leave after next season.
He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Right, except now they've filled the PG hole for the next year, instead of being forced to spend a max on a PG when there are limited options available.
you say that "they've filled the PG hole for a year" like it's a meaningful accomplishment. It's not.
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This covers up the PG hole until there is a much bigger market at the position. At the end of the day, it's a potential (albeit temporary) solution to the massive hole in the backcourt. And if they sign a stopgap 5 like Gasol while giving Willy time to develop, you mitigate the loss of RoLo somewhat.
You're not supposed to trade assets for a temporary solution if you're not a contender. This is team building 101. The goal should be to max out the value on every single transaction - not patching holes here and there while creating new ones. If the pieces don't necessarily fit right away, be patient.
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I would have preferred to keep Grant and see what he developed into. But the fact that they included him in the deal makes me believe that they were going to try to upgrade at PG regardless.
or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Deppers, I don't know if you commented on Holiday at all. What kind of player are the Knicks getting?
But if this team got Howard in addition to Rise, how can you NOT like the talent on this team?
because Howard, while still somewhat effective, is a declining player that's going to cost a TON of money to sign - and Rose is currently a bad player that even if he turns around, can leave after next season.
I agree with that at all. In fact you're wrong Enzo. As you are quite often because you insist on making negatively superlative comments in any discussion you're involved in.
A "bad" player? He's far from that and offers more as a guard than anything we had last year. We only have him a year and then he either walks or we resign him because he was good. He can penetrate and also hit the three.
As far as Howard, he is a trim protector who can finish inside. When did we last have that? And I don't think he'd cost as much as you think
Prior to injury I thought Rose was a tad more explosive than
The only upside is that now other stars might look at the Knicks as a more attractive destination.
I'm convinced that Rose will get hurt and end up playing less than 30 games. I hope I am wrong.
Even if he stays healthy, I am not happy how this will affect KP's development. To have both Melo and DRose, KP might only score on putback dunks. I hope Horny is a better coach than the last few offense-challenged ones we've had.
They are rebuilding but also trying to be competitive. Getting Rose for one year has no longterm implications.
Lopez is a complementary player. In the NBA, you have to secure star players. This makes the Knicks way more attractive to big free agents. We all know--and so does Phil--that the chances are not great of a big fish coming to MSG. But you still have try on the off chance you can reel a guy in. Phil did that with this trade without sacrificing the future. He even secured a second round pick.
So, I agree with you that this trade does not transform the Knicks into contenders but I don't really see much of a downside.
He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Deppers, I don't know if you commented on Holiday at all. What kind of player are the Knicks getting?
In the same mold as a Ronnie Brewer, maybe a tad more athletic. I am not sure on his 3 game though. He did shoot it at a high level, but I was wondering how much came in at garbage time.
Ill say this much, he got a lot of PT and starts at the end of the year when the Bulls were still fighting for a playoff spot. 15-20 minutes per game should be his limit.
I agree with that at all. In fact you're wrong Enzo. As you are quite often because you insist on making negatively superlative comments in any discussion you're involved in.A "bad" player? He's far from that and offers more as a guard than anything we had last year.
stats say he was among the worst PGs in the league last year. What do you have? And saying he's better than what we had last year isn't saying much at all. That shouldn't be the goal.
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We only have him a year and then he either walks or we resign him because he was good. He can penetrate and also hit the three.
he can hit the three? Do you watch basketball? Please go the fuck away.
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As far as Howard, he is a trim protector who can finish inside. When did we last have that? And I don't think he'd cost as much as you think
well Lopez was a damn good rim protector and he was signed on a cheap deal for 3 more years and was in his prime and doesn't have a history of back problems. Howard is on the wrong side of 30 and just opted out of a $22 million salary for next season. Do you really think he's coming cheap?
I'm sorry but you're either really misinformed or stuck in the past or just a fucking idiot.
because he will get a lot more wideopen looks. You can't judge a Point Guard's three point percentage without knowing how many were forced shots because the clock was running down and nobody was open. Given the set offenses in which he was playing, I would guess that a decent amount of his threes were forced.
They are rebuilding but also trying to be competitive. Getting Rose for one year has no longterm implications.
Lopez is a complementary player. In the NBA, you have to secure star players. This makes the Knicks way more attractive to big free agents. We all know--and so does Phil--that the chances are not great of a big fish coming to MSG. But you still have try on the off chance you can reel a guy in. Phil did that with this trade without sacrificing the future. He even secured a second round pick.
So, I agree with you that this trade does not transform the Knicks into contenders but I don't really see much of a downside.
bahahaha to anyone that thinks stars are coming here to play with a broken down Rose.
We have 9 years of data that says Rose won't hit threes.
1. We now have Rose for this season on an expiring deal. Best case - he's healthy and plays his ass off for a new contract. Then we are in good position to sign him for 2018 and beyond. Worst case - he's not the same player, so we can dump him after the season (or mid season to a team looking to clear cap space)
2. We gave up basically some guys. I like Lopez, he's a nice effort guy. With limited upside. Grant may turn out to be a player down the road, but he looked lost this past season. And let's be honest, the Knicks are trying to build a winner for what's left of the Melo era.
Oh yeah, and the Bulls now get the privilege of saving a seat on their bench for the corpse of Jose Calderon.
because he will get a lot more wideopen looks. You can't judge a Point Guard's three point percentage without knowing how many were forced shots because the clock was running down and nobody was open. Given the set offenses in which he was playing, I would guess that a decent amount of his threes were forced.
I didn't realize Hornacek's Knick offense (which nobody knows anything about at this point) will have magical healing powers for guys who are below average three point shooters.
Gasol is the likely target because he knows the triangle. The only stumbling block is if some team offers Gasol more than two years. Cuz Phil is not going to sign a 35 year old to a longterm deal.
I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
If its catch and shoot, he actually isnt horrific. But if he does it off the dribble, its disastorous. Theres games where he will hit 3-4 of them and look great. Then there will be games where he goes 0-6.
Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6h6 hours ago
Lopez was fantastic fit w KP. 28 & healthy. Thrived as he learned the offense in 2nd half of season. Took burden off budding KP at the 5.
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 6h6 hours ago
Probably most important: Lopez's deal -- the one that uninformed fans thought was too expensive -- is incredibly affordable one week from now.
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Mike Kurylo @KnickerBlogger 4h4 hours ago
The person with the most NBA ringz just traded for a scorer that has 1 season with a ts% better than league average and last 3 under 50%.
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Derrick rose last 3 seasons
Games - ts%
10 - 44.6%
51 - 49.3%
66 - 47.9%
I was as harsh as anyone on Rose last year as aBulls fan, but he really did get better as the year went on, especially when Butler missed some time. He is a guy who turns it up in some of the bigger games and likes the limelight. And his shooting really got better at the turn of 2016.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
completely undersell Rolo's game is painful. The fact is, you would be hard pressed to find a center who can do both ends of the floor as well as Rolo did last year for us for the same amount of money this year. Wait till FA starts but the numbers are going to be a bit ridiculous for most of these guys. Too many teams need to hit cap floors ATM.
Robin Lopez averaged the same amount of blocks as Howard so the idea that he's a way better rim protector isn't true. Offensive Rebounds PG are identical, Howard gets 4 more defensive rebounds per game and almost leads the league in personal fouls per game while shooting terrible from the FT line unlike Rolo (49% versus 79.5%. It's a mixed bag but for the price Rolo was a solid center.
And one thing to look at with the Bulls the last two years....
2 years ago they basically quit on Thibs (due to the fact he spent no time on offense and ran his players to the ground.O And this year with Hoiberg, it was just an utter disaster with Butler wanting to be lead Dog, Rose wanting to be lead dog, the nGasol wanting to be lead dog. Shit load of injuries on everyone.
Melo is going to benefit greatly from him. Ill definitely be rooting for him and the Knicks to have a big year. He deserves it. Ill tell you what the biggest problem with Rose is...... Reggie.
He is what he has been, he gets his points attacking the basket. He's not a particularly effective or efficient shooter, either. He's a prototype slasher who used to have sick athleticism and now does not.
We can talk about this all night, but not if we're going to say things like Hornacek's offense for this team, which nobody knows anything about yet, is going to grant Rose a skill he's never shown the talent for.
Anyone who thinks Lopez was a "fantastic" fit with KP on offense
The two could not play together inside, which is why during the second half of the season KP was mostly outside the circle. Not only that, Lopez fumbles the ball about 50% of the time you pass it to him. He tries hard and is a smart player but his lack of athleticism makes him very limited. That's why he has never played starter's minutes.
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In comment 13005381 Jon in NYC said:
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hyped, take a look at this highlight tape for D Rose using only 2015 clips. Link - ( New Window )
Did you mean 2016? The video's titled "Derrick Rose 2016 - Welcome to the Knicks.."
Well the 2015-2016 season.
Also, has anyone figured out why Tony Wroten was cut?
I read a tweet it was to make the deal work financially but I can't figure out why the knicks would need to cut him
Jalen Rose said he's a very good player. Looks like he'll be our backup SG
Hornacek watched film of all three point guards currently on the roster and demanded that they all disappear from the roster.
Seriously, I've never seen a team clear out all their players at one position before today. Sure, we got Rose back, but still ...
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In comment 13005389 Canton said:
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In comment 13005381 Jon in NYC said:
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hyped, take a look at this highlight tape for D Rose using only 2015 clips. Link - ( New Window )
Did you mean 2016? The video's titled "Derrick Rose 2016 - Welcome to the Knicks.."
Well the 2015-2016 season.
Also, has anyone figured out why Tony Wroten was cut?
I read a tweet it was to make the deal work financially but I can't figure out why the knicks would need to cut him
Yeah, trying to figure that out myself.
When watching him, he looked like a more athletic Ronnie Brewer. I am really not sold on his 3 point shot.
Maybe bring back Novak too
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
The knicks would potentially have a tough to guard lineup down the stretch of games
4 guys who can knock down the 3 with rose running pick and roll with Melo or kp...pretty dangerous if rose can be healthy
I think at this point anymore no matter what the Knicks do in the eyes of the media and casual fan that Knicks will have always been on the losing end.
Any other team in the league make the same move, everyone would be talking about what a great move to acquire a former MVP who is in a contract year.
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Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
Rose is different than Melo. Howard is different than both. I'm in all of a sudden.
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Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
Langston Galloway is the better player than Grant. But both are extremely similar.
Btw, would love the Knicks to draft Bambrey in the 2nd for a little St. Joe's connection. 😉
Westbrook had a career high of 69 this season. 375 dunks for his career.
I remember when this was a debate. I really hope Rose can make it interesting again.
Westbrook had a career high of 69 this season. 375 dunks for his career.
I remember when this was a debate. I really hope Rose can make it interesting again.
Pretty sure he had a dunk last year against the Knicks. It was a weak backside one in NY. Could be wrong. I don't remember him having any others last year.
It's likely imo that Phil also signs Gasol. If you say that Melo and Butler are about equal at this point, then the Knicks have basically the core that won 42 games for Bulls last year.
Then throw in that KP is way better than Mitoric (sp?) and KOQ about as good as Taj Gibson, the Knicks should win 45+ and make it to the second round of the playoffs. (obviously, it won't necessarily work out that way but just roll with it for comparison's sake)
If the team is a total bust, then you trade guys at the deadline and blow the whole thing up. Gasol will be a very tradeable commodity. Melo will also bring back some picks.
I don't really see how anyone can say this is a bad trade. Lopez is never going to be worth more than he is now. Grant is a back-up at best. Calderone is addition by subtraction.
Also, this makes Knicks more attractive to free agents. Yeah, they probably won't land a big fish. But if for some reason Durant wants to leave this year, he can now look at the Knicks and say they could be a legit contender with him in the lineup (assuming they sign Gasol)
because Isola is still stuck in the 90s when it comes to his brand of "analysis". The game passed him by years ago.
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Bryan Gibberman Retweeted
Daniel @benchwarmerdan 54m54 minutes ago
Woj on his podcast says teams are stunned by how much the Knicks gave away in the trade.
Woj also hates the knicks, remember his Donnie Walsh comment...
For as good as woj is his basketball analysis is awful
woj isn't giving analysis here. He's reporting what he's hearing - which is the only thing he's good at.
because Howard, while still somewhat effective, is a declining player that's going to cost a TON of money to sign - and Rose is currently a bad player that even if he turns around, can leave after next season.
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
you say that "they've filled the PG hole for a year" like it's a meaningful accomplishment. It's not.
You're not supposed to trade assets for a temporary solution if you're not a contender. This is team building 101. The goal should be to max out the value on every single transaction - not patching holes here and there while creating new ones. If the pieces don't necessarily fit right away, be patient.
or it indicates Phil/Mills are careless with assets.
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He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Deppers, I don't know if you commented on Holiday at all. What kind of player are the Knicks getting?
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But if this team got Howard in addition to Rise, how can you NOT like the talent on this team?
because Howard, while still somewhat effective, is a declining player that's going to cost a TON of money to sign - and Rose is currently a bad player that even if he turns around, can leave after next season.
I agree with that at all. In fact you're wrong Enzo. As you are quite often because you insist on making negatively superlative comments in any discussion you're involved in.
A "bad" player? He's far from that and offers more as a guard than anything we had last year. We only have him a year and then he either walks or we resign him because he was good. He can penetrate and also hit the three.
As far as Howard, he is a trim protector who can finish inside. When did we last have that? And I don't think he'd cost as much as you think
The only upside is that now other stars might look at the Knicks as a more attractive destination.
I'm convinced that Rose will get hurt and end up playing less than 30 games. I hope I am wrong.
Even if he stays healthy, I am not happy how this will affect KP's development. To have both Melo and DRose, KP might only score on putback dunks. I hope Horny is a better coach than the last few offense-challenged ones we've had.
Do people even know the player they're discussing?
Lopez is a complementary player. In the NBA, you have to secure star players. This makes the Knicks way more attractive to big free agents. We all know--and so does Phil--that the chances are not great of a big fish coming to MSG. But you still have try on the off chance you can reel a guy in. Phil did that with this trade without sacrificing the future. He even secured a second round pick.
So, I agree with you that this trade does not transform the Knicks into contenders but I don't really see much of a downside.
chop - I like your thinking. Just one question - what's a "trim protector who can finish inside"? Sounds interesting.
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In comment 13005439 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
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He had a career high of 32 dunks in his '11 MVP campaign (lolebron).
Remember its most valuable, not best player. Rose took them to the number 1 seed with Keith Bogans starting 82 games and Kurt Thomas starting half of them.
Deppers, I don't know if you commented on Holiday at all. What kind of player are the Knicks getting?
In the same mold as a Ronnie Brewer, maybe a tad more athletic. I am not sure on his 3 game though. He did shoot it at a high level, but I was wondering how much came in at garbage time.
Ill say this much, he got a lot of PT and starts at the end of the year when the Bulls were still fighting for a playoff spot. 15-20 minutes per game should be his limit.
They signed him based off liking his game though. Maybe he hasn't really healed to the point they'd want.
stats say he was among the worst PGs in the league last year. What do you have? And saying he's better than what we had last year isn't saying much at all. That shouldn't be the goal.
he can hit the three? Do you watch basketball? Please go the fuck away.
well Lopez was a damn good rim protector and he was signed on a cheap deal for 3 more years and was in his prime and doesn't have a history of back problems. Howard is on the wrong side of 30 and just opted out of a $22 million salary for next season. Do you really think he's coming cheap?
I'm sorry but you're either really misinformed or stuck in the past or just a fucking idiot.
Lopez is a complementary player. In the NBA, you have to secure star players. This makes the Knicks way more attractive to big free agents. We all know--and so does Phil--that the chances are not great of a big fish coming to MSG. But you still have try on the off chance you can reel a guy in. Phil did that with this trade without sacrificing the future. He even secured a second round pick.
So, I agree with you that this trade does not transform the Knicks into contenders but I don't really see much of a downside.
bahahaha to anyone that thinks stars are coming here to play with a broken down Rose.
2. We gave up basically some guys. I like Lopez, he's a nice effort guy. With limited upside. Grant may turn out to be a player down the road, but he looked lost this past season. And let's be honest, the Knicks are trying to build a winner for what's left of the Melo era.
Oh yeah, and the Bulls now get the privilege of saving a seat on their bench for the corpse of Jose Calderon.
I didn't realize Hornacek's Knick offense (which nobody knows anything about at this point) will have magical healing powers for guys who are below average three point shooters.
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
Lopez was fantastic fit w KP. 28 & healthy. Thrived as he learned the offense in 2nd half of season. Took burden off budding KP at the 5.
Probably most important: Lopez's deal -- the one that uninformed fans thought was too expensive -- is incredibly affordable one week from now.
The person with the most NBA ringz just traded for a scorer that has 1 season with a ts% better than league average and last 3 under 50%.
Games - ts%
10 - 44.6%
51 - 49.3%
66 - 47.9%
Plus, the Bulls were in turmoil all year with fueding, new coach, and injuries to just about everyone. I think you are going to be quite happy with him IF, a big if, he can stay healthy.
Thanks for the info, Dep.
Robin Lopez averaged the same amount of blocks as Howard so the idea that he's a way better rim protector isn't true. Offensive Rebounds PG are identical, Howard gets 4 more defensive rebounds per game and almost leads the league in personal fouls per game while shooting terrible from the FT line unlike Rolo (49% versus 79.5%. It's a mixed bag but for the price Rolo was a solid center.
Melo is going to benefit greatly from him. Ill definitely be rooting for him and the Knicks to have a big year. He deserves it. Ill tell you what the biggest problem with Rose is...... Reggie.
He is what he has been, he gets his points attacking the basket. He's not a particularly effective or efficient shooter, either. He's a prototype slasher who used to have sick athleticism and now does not.
We can talk about this all night, but not if we're going to say things like Hornacek's offense for this team, which nobody knows anything about yet, is going to grant Rose a skill he's never shown the talent for.
The two could not play together inside, which is why during the second half of the season KP was mostly outside the circle. Not only that, Lopez fumbles the ball about 50% of the time you pass it to him. He tries hard and is a smart player but his lack of athleticism makes him very limited. That's why he has never played starter's minutes.
Horny said he was going to incorporate it. But of course that could have just been window dressing.