NFT: Knicks/Draft Day Talk 6/23

Lopez was brought in as FA. His value was somewhat of the house money variety since we didn't have to rob peter to pay paul when he was signed last year.

That's not to say you want to just give away assets but like I said, from an asset mgmt standpoint, the Knicks are gaining ground with every passing year. They are at the point now where they won't have to deal from weakness anymore. Even the deal for Rose, it was the Bulls who had to deal from weakness more than the Knicks because they wanted to get rid of the guy.

Ill keep saying it like I have been saying the same shit about the Giants. Despite the horrors of the last few years they are on the right track. They aren't there yet, but many of the toughest hurdles have been cleared.

Knicks didnt trade away valuable long term assets based on what we gave up to acquire those assets last year? Why is that a relevant fact? If the Warriors traded Draymond tomorrow for garbage, would you say "well, he was just a 2nd rounder, so not much was lost"?

Fact is, in June 2016, Knicks had two long term valuable assets in Lopez and Grant. They cashed them in for 1 year of Rose. It was a win-now move for a team that isnt close to winning now.

is Phil Jackson knows talent. Contrary to myth, the guy didn't just stumble into close to a dozen championships. He got there by knowing what the fuck he was coaching and dealing with.

It's not at all crazy to suggest that Phil deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to player evaluation. When has this guy ever fucked up with a player eval that we know of? Isn't it fair to assume Phil has a good grasp on Grant's future after seeing him play in the NBA for a year?

Phil hasn't made one single bad move here. The chandler deal was meh and maybe we could have gotten more but Chandler was nearly done then and he's even closer to done now AND the trade led to signing Lopez--and that was a good move.

Maybe Phil knows what he's doing? God forbid.

And Sabonis. Everyone else I like is injured or probably going top 10.

In comment 13005789 Aspano! said:

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In comment 13005764 Enzo said: Quote: Quote: Instead, in a deal Forman called "a retool rather than a rebuild," the Bulls proactively tried to get some return for Rose, clearly the best player in the trade. Sources said other exploratory talks led to teams asking the Bulls to include a future first-round pick to take on Rose's contract, knowing he could walk in free agency next summer. very little has changed at MSG. Link - ( New Window ) This. Wait, except for the fact that the Knicks aren't trading future picks for risky long-term investments, which is what basically made a Knicks trade a "Knicks" trade. So yes, very little has changed. Except for the main philosophy of the FO which has changed.

And no mention that the Knicks gave up Calderon who is hot garbage making a lot of money and Lopez who also makes a lot of money. LEt's leave that part out. We also got a 2nd rounder. Again, leave out all the facts to support sky is falling agenda.

I've been a Phil defender since he got here. Nobody gives him the benefit of the doubt more than me.

But this simply isn't true.


In comment 13006130 djm said:

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Phil hasn't made one single bad move here.

On what planet is Grant a long term valuable asset? Just like Lamb is right now?

say we used most of our money on a big like Horford or whiteside and we were stuck on that second tier of SG's. I think we would all easily be talking ourselves into Lamb for 7 mill. We would love his age/upside. Again we really need a top 3pt shooter at the 2, but we might not be able to get that. Lamb can be your do everything kind of 2 guard, you know like turner but for half the price.

PG (for three years) or D league player and I had to pick, I'm picking the D League.

Jim Rome and he didnt seem to trash the trade. Thought Rose showed flashes last year. Basically questioned the fit with Melo. And although he said that Rose will obviously never be MVP rose again he could still be a very good PG for NY. Also said he thought KP could win an mvp some day.

In comment 13006137 djm said:

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And no mention that the Knicks gave up Calderon who is hot garbage making a lot of money and Lopez who also makes a lot of money. LEt's leave that part out. We also got a 2nd rounder. Again, leave out all the facts to support sky is falling agenda.

Calderon I understand. Your argument on Lopez makes no sense -- his contract was cheap for the expected production. It had positive value. We could have traded it for a #1, I believe a late lottery pick. You're fishing for justifications. Unless you believe this was really a bad contract for bad contract deal.

In comment 13006126 Deej said:

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Knicks didnt trade away valuable long term assets based on what we gave up to acquire those assets last year? Why is that a relevant fact? If the Warriors traded Draymond tomorrow for garbage, would you say "well, he was just a 2nd rounder, so not much was lost"? Fact is, in June 2016, Knicks had two long term valuable assets in Lopez and Grant. They cashed them in for 1 year of Rose. It was a win-now move for a team that isnt close to winning now.

Lopez isn't fucking Draymond Green. He's an ok player on an ok deal. He had OK value. We also dumped Calderon which people conveniently ignore. And we got the 2nd rounder AND we did in fact get an upgrade at PG in Rose.

Look, I said it 10 times by now I cautiously hoped Lopez would have more value but honestly, would the Knicks be THAT much better off if they traded Lopez for lets say the 20th pick instead of Rose? Would they even be able to deal Lopez for that much? Don't you think Phil offered Lopez around the league?

I don't love the deal but some of you are nuts with the over the top hate of this deal. At its very worst, it's harmless. At its best it's fine.

And you can check my posts all season long I always thoughtr Lopez was overrated by fans. He's an OK player who will never play better than he did last season.

And can we let this off-season shake out first before we panic about losing Lopez?

better find out

Keeps falling, that might be fun.

he was a former LOTTERY pick. And he was a throw in.

You guys forget or ignore what happens to a player's so called value once they play poorly in the NBA for even one season.

Shane Larkin...that's it. Why was he a throw in? Because everyone knew he wasn't much of a talent. He was a 2 yr vet? A former lottery pick and he missed a lot of time so many could say the jury wasn't out yet. But it was.

Grant simply didn't have the value you all think he had. He was a throw in.

In comment 13006138 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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I've been a Phil defender since he got here. Nobody gives him the benefit of the doubt more than me. But this simply isn't true. In comment 13006130 djm said: Quote: Phil hasn't made one single bad move here.

Fisher and MAYBE Chandler and I think this is a stretch. He hasn't made one bad move that hurts the long term value of the roster. And that's a fact. This trade doesn't touch the long term one bit unless you think we just dumped A future starting PG in Grant. Maybe we did, odds are we didn't.

Whatever, it's done. The Knicks won't suck for the next 5 years because of this deal contrary to what some of u may believe. As long as we agree that this deal in no way shape of form even sniffs McDyeye or Ewing for Rice we can move on. It might be a somewhat annoying deal if Rose sucks and Grant develops but it won't crush the franchise at all.

Grant also is old. Will be 24 when the season starts (only 4 years younger than Rose). Yes I know Rose has had injuries.

and got Grant last year, but for whatever reason he was far from the player he had been at ND, and I think he was drafted as a senior.

In comment 13006148 djm said:

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In comment 13006126 Deej said: Quote: Knicks didnt trade away valuable long term assets based on what we gave up to acquire those assets last year? Why is that a relevant fact? If the Warriors traded Draymond tomorrow for garbage, would you say "well, he was just a 2nd rounder, so not much was lost"? Fact is, in June 2016, Knicks had two long term valuable assets in Lopez and Grant. They cashed them in for 1 year of Rose. It was a win-now move for a team that isnt close to winning now. Lopez isn't fucking Draymond Green. He's an ok player on an ok deal. He had OK value. We also dumped Calderon which people conveniently ignore. And we got the 2nd rounder AND we did in fact get an upgrade at PG in Rose. Look, I said it 10 times by now I cautiously hoped Lopez would have more value but honestly, would the Knicks be THAT much better off if they traded Lopez for lets say the 20th pick instead of Rose? Would they even be able to deal Lopez for that much? Don't you think Phil offered Lopez around the league? I don't love the deal but some of you are nuts with the over the top hate of this deal. At its very worst, it's harmless. At its best it's fine. And you can check my posts all season long I always thoughtr Lopez was overrated by fans. He's an OK player who will never play better than he did last season. And can we let this off-season shake out first before we panic about losing Lopez?

My point wasnt Lopez = Green. It is that it is asinine to gauge a player's value based on what you gave up to acquire him 1 year ago. That's irrelevant history.

As for Lopez, as I've said, I think he's more valuable than George Hill who brought back the #12 pick. Good contract for the right term.

Dont know how you can say it is a harmless deal. Worst case scenario Rose is a bust (and in any event is probably gone after the season), we end up paying almost double to replace Lopez with a marginally better D12, and we dont have the cheap services of Grant who I expect to be a starting PG (prob league average at best) or at least a usable bench guard. Teams need that stuff.

In comment 13006130 djm said:

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is Phil Jackson knows talent. Contrary to myth, the guy didn't just stumble into close to a dozen championships. He got there by knowing what the fuck he was coaching and dealing with. It's not at all crazy to suggest that Phil deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to player evaluation. When has this guy ever fucked up with a player eval that we know of? Isn't it fair to assume Phil has a good grasp on Grant's future after seeing him play in the NBA for a year? Phil hasn't made one single bad move here. The chandler deal was meh and maybe we could have gotten more but Chandler was nearly done then and he's even closer to done now AND the trade led to signing Lopez--and that was a good move. Maybe Phil knows what he's doing? God forbid.

in terms of the game of basketball, Phil knows more than all of us combined, even including dep! None of us can question that.

But it is fair to question whether or not he knows how to to operate and maneuver within the complicated NBA CBA and salary cap, in addition to his ability to negotiate. Because the evidence so far suggests he's pretty fucking bad at all of that.

In comment 13006133 Phil in LA said:

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And Sabonis. Everyone else I like is injured or probably going top 10.

Sabonis is projected to go lottery

In comment 13006171 Enzo said:

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In comment 13006130 djm said: Quote: is Phil Jackson knows talent. Contrary to myth, the guy didn't just stumble into close to a dozen championships. He got there by knowing what the fuck he was coaching and dealing with. It's not at all crazy to suggest that Phil deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to player evaluation. When has this guy ever fucked up with a player eval that we know of? Isn't it fair to assume Phil has a good grasp on Grant's future after seeing him play in the NBA for a year? Phil hasn't made one single bad move here. The chandler deal was meh and maybe we could have gotten more but Chandler was nearly done then and he's even closer to done now AND the trade led to signing Lopez--and that was a good move. Maybe Phil knows what he's doing? God forbid. in terms of the game of basketball, Phil knows more than all of us combined, even including dep! None of us can question that. But it is fair to question whether or not he knows how to to operate and maneuver within the complicated NBA CBA and salary cap, in addition to his ability to negotiate. Because the evidence so far suggests he's pretty fucking bad at all of that.

Right. Coaching =/= talent evaluation =/= roster building acumen. Those are 3 different things.

Highest I've seen him is the end of the lottery, and I've seen him later in mocks as well.

highly critical of the Knicks but I have given this deal a tepid thumbs up but if we give Howard max money I'm out.

In comment 13006182 Phil in LA said:

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Highest I've seen him is the end of the lottery, and I've seen him later in mocks as well.

Phil,
They are all simply mocks. I just meant I can't see any realistic way the Knicks are picking high enough to draft him. Teams no longer "sell" picks and we don't have anything to trade.

In comment 13006171 Enzo said:

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In comment 13006130 djm said: Quote: is Phil Jackson knows talent. Contrary to myth, the guy didn't just stumble into close to a dozen championships. He got there by knowing what the fuck he was coaching and dealing with. It's not at all crazy to suggest that Phil deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to player evaluation. When has this guy ever fucked up with a player eval that we know of? Isn't it fair to assume Phil has a good grasp on Grant's future after seeing him play in the NBA for a year? Phil hasn't made one single bad move here. The chandler deal was meh and maybe we could have gotten more but Chandler was nearly done then and he's even closer to done now AND the trade led to signing Lopez--and that was a good move. Maybe Phil knows what he's doing? God forbid. in terms of the game of basketball, Phil knows more than all of us combined, even including dep! None of us can question that. But it is fair to question whether or not he knows how to to operate and maneuver within the complicated NBA CBA and salary cap, in addition to his ability to negotiate. Because the evidence so far suggests he's pretty fucking bad at all of that.

On please I have illustrated how the Knicks are better off today than they were before Phil got here and by a wide margin. You're being ridiculous. Pretty fucking bad? What did you expect after 2 years the show time lakers?

The KP pick alone blows your statement to bits.

I am guilty of millering this thread --it's done.

Let's see the finished product. I don't think it's a stretch to believe that the Knicks will replace Lopez rather easily and if they do, the deal for Rose won't seem to painful. Essentially it would be Grant and Calderon for Rose and the 2nd.

who pointed out all the positives so far this offseason:

We have a PG (if only for year)
We have Melo and KP
We have all of our first round picks going forward
We still have the same cap space for this summer
We have more cap space next summer (as of this moment)
We no longer have Rambis and a full-time triangle offense

I think it's ok for people to feel somewhat optimistic about improving this team.

not obsessed with Lopez but I think it's a major overstatement to suggest he will "easily" be replaced.

if we replace Lopez by giving Dwight 100/4, blech.

don't even especially want Noah but he probably represents the best chance of replacing Lopez at a "good" price.

made it sound like Phil is not interested in Howard. One article was the post, not sure the other one i read. They mentioned him not fitting the cerebral type player phil likes (although this would probably cross Whiteside off as well).

limits the loss of production, and gives Willy time to grow if they believe he can be a rotational piece. In fact, Willy would probably benefit from having both KP and Gasol on the team as he becomes better at speaking English and learning about the NBA

In comment 13006210 Italianju said:

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made it sound like Phil is not interested in Howard. One article was the post, not sure the other one i read. They mentioned him not fitting the cerebral type player phil likes (although this would probably cross Whiteside off as well).

Meh. Beggars can't be choosers. Is Rose really known to be such a high IQ player? Was Seraphin? O'Quinn? Hahn insists Phil likes Whiteside.

I was ready to take them before the Rose trade. I really think House could be a starter in the NBA. Felder may never be a starter in the league but he could be a six man of the year candidate. I like their upside more than Whitehead.

I'm not confident leaving Galloaway as Rose backup. I still don't think he is real NBA talent. When the Knicks were still in contention for a playoff spot, he was awful.

wanted to come for what they paid KOQ and Seraphin im sure we would take him. Maybe the cost combined with not loving the player makes him not interested. Basically the same reasons we dont love Howard.

As for Whiteside perhaps the upside would outweigh any IQ issues.

thing to possibly track is because we have so many open roster spots it figures that some of the better undrafted players opt to play summer ball with the Knicks.

In comment 13006187 djm said:

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On please I have illustrated how the Knicks are better off today than they were before Phil got here and by a wide margin. You're being ridiculous. Pretty fucking bad? What did you expect after 2 years the show time lakers? The KP pick alone blows your statement to bits.

of course we stumbled into the #4 pick last year by ACCIDENT when Phil's brilliant plan to contend with Calderon/Dalembert blew up in his face. Kudos to Phil for making what so far appears to be a tremendous pick, but let's not overlook that he's tried to contend for two straight seasons and both times he's failed.

I could detail the various seemingly minor details he's botched or handled incorrectly on numerous trades and contracts, but it seems most folks here either don't care or are unaware of the little things that allow you to build a sustainable winner in a capped league. Maybe that's too much to expect? I mean, we had people vehemently defending the Bargs trade the day it went down. If you're setting the bar at "he's not as bad as Isiah" then Phil has been a huge success. Unfortunately, we're not competing against prior Knick idiot GMs.

In comment 13006223 Italianju said:

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wanted to come for what they paid KOQ and Seraphin im sure we would take him. Maybe the cost combined with not loving the player makes him not interested. Basically the same reasons we dont love Howard. As for Whiteside perhaps the upside would outweigh any IQ issues.

How about our pursuit of DeAndre Jordan last year?

We saw over those great stretches the last two years. But let's not get caught up in it. He's clearly one of the lowest Bball IQ PGs in the league period. Check TOs and FG%. This dude skates off his athleticism more than anyone else in the league and that's why he hasn't been able to make the full adjustment since his injuries. He takes long range runners in the lane. I saw a stat that said he will be the highest usage Melo has played with since AI. And he averages 4.7 assists per game at that. He's also one of the most averse PGs when it comes involving big men. I'm not buying that Phil wants to build a Spurs like culture here.

In comment 13006228 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13006223 Italianju said: Quote: wanted to come for what they paid KOQ and Seraphin im sure we would take him. Maybe the cost combined with not loving the player makes him not interested. Basically the same reasons we dont love Howard. As for Whiteside perhaps the upside would outweigh any IQ issues. How about our pursuit of DeAndre Jordan last year?

Greg Monroe and Afflalo as well

is much question that a guy like Jordan is worth the max or at least near it. But if there is a guy that you arent sure is worth the max due to age, decline, injuries, etc.. then when you add something that you dont like like crap IQ then it tilts the scales to "not interested". Of course im just guessing here.

But NBA teams reach for AA over can play every year.

The Rockets are gauging trade interest on Trevor Ariza, Patrick Beverley, and K.J. McDaniels, according to Jake Fischer of Sports Illustrated.
The Rockets will likely play a big part of the NBA Draft trade landscape and it looks like they'll try to involve Ariza, Beverley, and/or McDaniels in potential deals. While Ariza delivered top-40 value in nine-category fantasy leagues, his value could take a hit if his role is diminished on a new team.
Source: Jake Fischer on Twitter Jun 23 - 1:42 PM

im not saying he doesnt i just didnt realize that was a knock on him. And again with AA (who im not sure has a low bball IQ either) he came on a great deal (we thought). I just think if your looking at paying a guy 20 mill a year for a few seasons then you dont want him to have a trait you hate unless he makes up for it in a lot of other places. Howard doesnt really make up for it like a Jordan or even Whiteside would.

In comment 13006226 DanMetroMan said:

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thing to possibly track is because we have so many open roster spots it figures that some of the better undrafted players opt to play summer ball with the Knicks.

good point.

In comment 13006226 DanMetroMan said:

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thing to possibly track is because we have so many open roster spots it figures that some of the better undrafted players opt to play summer ball with the Knicks.

Geez Dan i said that at like 8 this morning....Get with it....lol

In comment 13006234 Phil in LA said:

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But NBA teams reach for AA over can play every year.

Sabonis has NBA skills I'd surely take him.

In comment 13006226 DanMetroMan said:

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thing to possibly track is because we have so many open roster spots it figures that some of the better undrafted players opt to play summer ball with the Knicks.

And yet we didnt make room for Ndour. Agents had to have noticed that.

In comment 13006246 Italianju said:

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In comment 13006226 DanMetroMan said: Quote: thing to possibly track is because we have so many open roster spots it figures that some of the better undrafted players opt to play summer ball with the Knicks. Geez Dan i said that at like 8 this morning....Get with it....lol

Sorry! lol But it's true. Maybe even frenchie has a shot at making the team.