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Yet another OL discussion

George from PA : 6/24/2016 8:35 am
Not exactly a Meatloaf classic but 4 out 5 ain't bad!

I was one that not only was concerned about the right side but not exactly enamored by the left side either. I mean Flowers seems like a great kid but was gimpy, had technique issues and did not exactly do a great job last year. I kind of understand why they want to keep him at LT..$$$.

I have never felt a 1st round pick for a LG is great value and although I liked Pugh, I did not exactly think he is an all pro so I was underwhelmed.

Our center's play was a very nice surprise last year.......and his arrow is pointing straight up!

I loved the new OL coach hire and feel it will pay dividends.....

Like that Flowers has a good relationship with him, fully healthy and I have better expectations for him.

Loved following Jerry at that camp and actually seeing his quickness improve.

Now, I just saw Pugh from his camp and he looks hugh! No longer do I see a big kid......but an even bigger man......

Now we have no depth and tired of discussing the RT. .....

But I am all in with 4 out 5 of the OL.



George, aside from possibly the Cowboys,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/24/2016 8:39 am : link
who ELSE has quality depth on the OL around the league?
I know but  
George from PA : 6/24/2016 8:48 am : link
Would love Newhouse to be the depth.....

Cowboys is our primary competition
is Pugh really just a LG though?  
UConn4523 : 6/24/2016 8:51 am : link
If anyone goes down outside of Richburg, Pugh can theoretically step in. He was also picked 19, not 9, so his value is pretty damn good IMO. And I agree with BB56, I'd love depth, but so would just about every team in the league.

I don't really have anything else to add regarding the OL. We know the weaknesses and its up to Jerry/Newhouse to step up and the coaches to play to their strengths and tap into that extra gear (if its there).
RE: George, aside from possibly the Cowboys,  
BlueLou : 6/24/2016 8:54 am : link
In comment 13007278 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
who ELSE has quality depth on the OL around the league?


The problem with our OL is that they don't match up well with 2 teams in our division that have good front 7s and can bring the heat - Redskins & Eagles.

As for OL depth, if we had a better option to start at RT and Newhouse became the backup swing tackle, we'd likely be fine.
uconn  
George from PA : 6/24/2016 8:57 am : link
Agree.....

I also should add.....that Pugh's draft did not exactly produce many all pro's......he was one of the few that year that actually is a decent player.
I'm very interested to see how things play out with Flowers  
UberAlias : 6/24/2016 8:59 am : link
I get what they are doing with him at OLT and essentially saying the future is now with him. I'm just not sure his play last year warrants that. Can you really be sure, this is our guy, no questions asked? They thought Pugh was a RT, and has now settled at LG.

It is clear from their actions that the team is not comfortable at RT. They may no choice in the end, but the fact that they were discussing possible trade to bring in Monroe tells you all you need to know. There is concern there, as there should be.

It does not appear that Hart is ready to challenge for the RT spot, at least not yet. This will be something to keep an eye on in camp.

I can't help but to feel that this group is one Oline away. I am concerned we may see that a failure to address RT holds this offense back from reaching its potential. The Flowers situation has complicated matters, for sure --let's just hope his play proves them right and justifies the insistence.
I think there is universal agreement...  
Dan in the Springs : 6/24/2016 9:08 am : link
that we want to see continued improvement from our young players, and that the right side should still be upgraded.

Now, some have written off Jerry/Newhouse. I admit to not being too hopeful for any major improvements, but am with you in that I think we might see some improvement with JJ. On the other hand, MN has probably shown his ceiling already.

I also agree that Flowers must improve. I was also disappointed with his performance, even before the injury. On the bright side, he's young, strong, and should take to coaching well. It has also been shown by several posters that a young, admittedly raw rookie, rarely does well right away when thrown into a starting role at LT.

WRT matchups - one thing going in our favor is that the offense can succeed even if Eli isn't given a ton of time in the pocket. He's very good at avoiding the sack and our offense does not require time for vertical passing routes to develop in order to move the chains. Also our WR's are good and possibly great (OBJ) after the catch.
UA......it would be a disaster if the RT takes this offense down.  
George from PA : 6/24/2016 9:09 am : link
It should not be worse then last year.....all should play better with another year together.

New coach....better blocking options from HB, TE, FB.....

I still feel hopeful that Reese gets us another OT.
Why am I getting this feeling  
ANGPASS : 6/24/2016 9:34 am : link
that the OL will be great this year and we will all look back and laugh how we were so worried?
RE: Why am I getting this feeling  
UConn4523 : 6/24/2016 9:39 am : link
In comment 13007392 ANGPASS said:
Quote:
that the OL will be great this year and we will all look back and laugh how we were so worried?


Haha, i don't think it will be a top unit or anything, but I'm guessing its going to be a lot better than last year (barring injuries).
Not concerned.......yet  
Still a Sam Huff fan : 6/24/2016 9:43 am : link
I believe that our starting five is not set at this time. There MUST BE a RT that will be freed up from another team better than Mr. Newhouse. MUST BE I don't expect a pro bowler or a first rounder to slide over but a young mid-rounder with talent beaten out by a veteran or someone coming back from injury or a team with too many tackles and the need to get to 53. I don't know what but every year good, young offensive linemen are cut by teams.

Yeah, we'd all like it if that player was here for training camp but he isn't.
OL Depth  
stretch234 : 6/24/2016 9:43 am : link
All you need to know about how scare OL depth is in the NFL is to know that Dallas resigned C. Brown as a b/u T

This notion that all these teams have OL depth is fantasy. The majority of NFL teams can't field 5 OL they are comfortable with
I think a bigger question mark and one that scares me  
grizz299 : 6/24/2016 10:12 am : link
is Pugh and concussions.

I am so optimistic that I'm inventing things that might stop us from being a dominant team.

Pugh and his history of concussions heads the list. Hankins not performing well, Mac's performance as HC, D. Thompson as a training camp fraud -those serve as my personal worry chamber.
That's not to say those are the only things that can sabotage a projected great year but those are the potential trouble zones.
The OL.......  
Doomster : 6/24/2016 10:44 am : link
It takes years, for an OL to come together.....

We have had a merry go round of offensive linemen the last 3 seasons....there has been no stability.....we waited too long to replace aging/injury prone/bad players......

Look at the starters last season....a rookie playing LT, a RT playing LG, a second year player at center(who played guard the previous season), Schwartz was moved back to RG, and and Newhouse was inserted at RG because of the Beatty injury, which means, there was not one starter from the previous season, that was in the same playing position.....

So what kind of continuity did this OL have.....as the season went on, Schwartz went out.....Flowers missed time....Pugh missed time.....so Jerry a backup was inserted at RG, and once again, we have added another new player....

But this season, that OL that finished the season, will be the starters.....was it the ankle or lack of talent, that gave Flowers problems with outside edge rushers? Can Pugh stay concussion free? Richburg is the rock of this OL....Jerry played well in pass protection, sucked at at run blocking.......Newhouse is the weak link of the line....he is a backup, being forced to start, because there is no one else...can he lift his game, even a little?

There is talk of Davis.....but he still has not asked for reinstatement, possibly trying to force the 49ers to trade his rights....but what kind of shape is he in? and what is his motive for coming back? Dollar signs or actually wanting to play?

Other teams know the Giants are looking for a RT.....they will be careful not to release one, without trying to make a trade first....

This OL should play better after a season together.....if a veteran RT becomes available that is better than Newhouse, great....otherwise, I think the Giants are poised to start the season with these guys....

One more element needed is a blocking TE....can one of these guys step up?

If this OL can start to convert short yardage better, it makes play calling for Eli much simpler, and also we make play action more effective.....a year together should make the the pass blocking better, especially with a TE chip block on Newhouse's side.....running the ball better, is what this OL needs to work on.....and just like the defense, the OL has to stay healthy, due to lack of adequate backups.....
Flowers is a much better player than  
bronxgiant : 6/24/2016 10:47 am : link
what he showed last year. Having watched him from High School at Norland and Miami in college the kid only gets better. Last year he could hardly walk but still held up on one leg in a new league. Many a young man have come out of the U lately and bloomed into great players with pro coaching. Just look at S Henderson on the bills. Even Mcdermott (?) the center we have now might just make this team. Flowers is a tough kid and will show up on Sundays. He is a throw back Giant type of player who brings a defensive lineman's mentality to the offensive side of the ball.
There is good reasons for yet another o-line post  
nicky43 : 6/24/2016 10:59 am : link
Mainly the fact that for 4 years our o-line has sucked and JR has done a terrible job trying to fix it but the bigger issue for JR was that he let it get to the point where it would take so long to fix it in the first place.

In my book, it's not fixed yet. I'm hopeful we will see improvement this year but I can't say we saw any improvement last year. Yes, some pieces were upgraded but we had a few serious holes that resulted in Eli being on his back often and a very inconsistent run game. So even though we had a few upgrades the line performance was not much better than the previous years.

It will not be fixed in mind until we can consistently run the ball without being tackled at the line of scrimmage and Eli can consistently take three steps and pass without being shoved to the ground. I prefer 4 or 5 steps but that is asking for too much these days.

I liked what I read about Jerry going to that camp because I'll always route for a person who knows he needs to improve and is doing everything he can to improve and that camp was a very positive step for Jerry who previously played at "he sucks" level. It will be interesting to see what dividends it can pay in a game.

So now, I just hope they plug the giant hole at RT and hopefully with someone well under 30.
Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, Jerry, Newhouse.  
Klaatu : 6/24/2016 11:33 am : link
We will most likely begin the upcoming season the same way we ended the last season, with those five as our starting O-Line. We might as well get used to that.
Even if the O-line is great this year, some will not be happy  
Ivan15 : 6/24/2016 11:45 am : link
with Newhouse at RT.

He may always be the weak link so some will never be satisfied as long as he is the RT.

He will have to be replaced before the wolves are happy - even if his replacement is only marginally better.
RE: RE: George, aside from possibly the Cowboys,  
Jimmy Googs : 6/24/2016 12:26 pm : link
In comment 13007300 BlueLou said:
Quote:
In comment 13007278 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


who ELSE has quality depth on the OL around the league?



The problem with our OL is that they don't match up well with 2 teams in our division that have good front 7s and can bring the heat - Redskins & Eagles.

As for OL depth, if we had a better option to start at RT and Newhouse became the backup swing tackle, we'd likely be fine.


But why don't they match up well Lou? Is there something special those teams are doing or are you just saying they are better players? I am not sure I agree with Redskins dominate us (other than Kerrigan seems to do well against our RT), but clearly the Eagles D-Line controls the LOS when we play them.
with the struggles  
msh : 6/24/2016 2:17 pm : link
to find a RT i would have liked them to play pugh at RT again have thier three best OL manning the crucial OT spots,with richburg plugging the middle they could live with jerry playing guard then they could probably go with hart at the other OG spot for this year and look to draft an OG with one of the first 2-3 picks next draft to push either jerry or hart into backup or add much needed depth

i dont get the hate for flowers on this board his play was a good thing from a bad year last year,as a rookie playing thru injury and starting on the second hardest position on offence (after QB obviously) i was impressed with flowers

he is clearly a tough guy,lesser players would have gone on IR for the year and as a rookie facing every teams number one passrusher every snap and every game he was solid,yes we would have liked him to be better but the experience he got last year,with a full offseason and more comfort will make him improve this year

its newhouse and jerry the two weak players manning the same side and its effect on the running attack that is the greater concern i hope that hart can replace newhouse at RT or they can shuffle pugh back there and use hart at pughs LG spot so we dont need to see newhouse and jerry on the right side of the OL again and another poor rushing attack as a result that will limit what could be the best offence the giants have had possibly ever

an improved running game will also improve the defence if they can control the clock better and keep the defence off the field as long as possible aside from the upgrades on the DL and secondry particularly if goodson can push his way into a starting role by midseason and robinson can stay healthy they could be vastly improved at LB too

there is a chance this team could be a 2007 or 2011 level team again,there is also the chance they could be another 6-10 disappointment again too but the signs for the former are encouraging
I remember when BBI worried about Diehl...  
Dan in the Springs : 6/24/2016 2:19 pm : link
that he wasn't a LT, that we were going nowhere with him as a starter, that he was the weak link. What was JR thinking going into the season with him there?

Pugh doesn't seem like he is ever going to be a terrific player  
JerseyCityJoe : 6/24/2016 2:21 pm : link
However, he is smart and versatile and you need guys like that if your team is going anywhere. Not everyone needs to be star to still be very valuable.
It is what it is  
giantgiantfan : 6/24/2016 2:37 pm : link
They have tried addressing it, most recently with the guy from Baltimore. The dead last defense needed to be fixed before the not worst in the league offensive line. They may still address it.

As others have posted, Pugh gives us flexability, but not depth. If we can't find an RT, it might make sense for this team to add a solid G as depth incase an LT/RT goes down so Pugh can slide in and then the depth G can move into LG. We might already have that in Hart.

Hart is one of the guys I'll be looking at a lot in preseason.
We are stubborn to a fault  
area junc : 6/24/2016 3:58 pm : link
Pugh did a much better job as an emergency fill in LT than Flowers did. If we just let Pugh play his natural position (LT) and Flowers (RT) wed be much better off, and not have a marshall newhouse-type at s critical T spot. Rather stash a mediocre player inside whete he has help + isnt matched up with sick athletes outside
Flowers was not Gimpy  
djstat : 6/24/2016 4:51 pm : link
He was tough and played hurt. Like to see some of you play with a high ankle sprain. he was expected to be a project and more of a RT at first, but wussy beatty screwed that up
RE: We are stubborn to a fault  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/24/2016 5:41 pm : link
In comment 13008090 area junc said:
Quote:
Pugh did a much better job as an emergency fill in LT than Flowers did. If we just let Pugh play his natural position (LT) and Flowers (RT) wed be much better off, and not have a marshall newhouse-type at s critical T spot. Rather stash a mediocre player inside whete he has help + isnt matched up with sick athletes outside


Okay -- so much for that idea
Offensive Line 2016  
ROBUSTELLI81 : 6/25/2016 6:50 pm : link
Keep firmly in mind that this " discussion " serves primarily to keep the dead month before practise starts from being boring. I seriously doubt that Ben McAdoo sneaks a look-see for fresh ideas, but you never know stranger things have happened. That said, moving Pugh back to RT - in the Dave Diehl mode - would solve that problem. Then the OG Pool: John Jerry - "rejuvenated" through the LeCharles Bentley Miracle workout; Bobby Hart, a year wiser, stronger & hungry; the CFL "wunderkind" Bret Jones; Adam Gettis and two free agents. In my humble opinion a 2016 solid starting OL would be LT Flowers, LG Jones, C Richburg, RG Hart & RT Pugh. Are you listening Ben.
'4 out 5 ain't bad!'...  
Torrag : 6/25/2016 7:04 pm : link
...where do you get 4?

Ahh. I see. You're revisiting Jonestown and drinking the john jerry Kool-Aid.
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