| Adrian Wojnarowski: Sources: Wichita States Ron Baker has agreed to a partially guaranteed 1-year deal with the New York Knicks. Baker was undrafted tonight. |
Don't know much about the guy other than he looks like Ed Monix from Semi Pro.
Couples News and Notes;
Derrick Rose will be introduced tonight at MSG at 6pm
-Rose and Noah were in NY last night
-KD and Melo are working out together. (I know, I know)
-Hornacek and Phil pretty much say we still need a 2 and a 5. They don't want KP gaining too much weight. I'd imagine they don't have plans for a permanent center approach.
-Phil says he would like to have Rose longterm, but that's a discussion for another day.
But meanwhile.. one can dream.
1- The Knicks not trading cash for a pick when early 2nd rounders were going for only 2-2.5 million (Knicks had more). They're very little drawbacks from not spending that money.
2- Knicks not going harder after some UDFA. Little risk + I'm sure a lot would have signed here given the crazy amount of open spots the Knicks have.
--
Not a huge deal but was a bit annoyed by that. Regardless FA should be fun. I really hope they go for someone like Noah on a short deal rather than Howard on a long deal.
But meanwhile.. one can dream.
Would love Batum
Link - ( New Window )
several picks were sold last night, which sort of indicates several teams were interested in selling.
Where would Wily go if he was in this draft? Seems like mid teens, no? There are guys taken before #20 last night who I wouldnt trade him for.
Where would Wily go if he was in this draft? Seems like mid teens, no? There are guys taken before #20 last night who I wouldnt trade him for.
going to be very interesting to see what he signs for. He could be looking at a decent contract.
Don't see Derozan coming to NY
first time since January 2004, i.e. before the Marbury trade if I'm not mistaken.
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You can't assume the Knicks just didn't try to.
several picks were sold last night, which sort of indicates several teams were interested in selling.
Were any of those deals strictly cash? I saw moves being made with players involved.
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In comment 13007687 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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You can't assume the Knicks just didn't try to.
several picks were sold last night, which sort of indicates several teams were interested in selling.
Were any of those deals strictly cash? I saw moves being made with players involved.
I think there were 2 that were strictly cash but we're in the late 50s
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In comment 13007687 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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You can't assume the Knicks just didn't try to.
several picks were sold last night, which sort of indicates several teams were interested in selling.
Were any of those deals strictly cash? I saw moves being made with players involved.
as far as I can tell, at least the #38, #54, and #56 picks were all traded straight up cash.
Baker
JJ Avila
Marvelle Harris
Chasson Randle
Maybe Hernangomez and Anthony Bennett?
Baker
JJ Avila
Marvelle Harris
Chasson Randle
Maybe Hernangomez and Anthony Bennett?
I don't believe he's allowed to even "talk" to the Knicks until 7/1 and Orlando Summer league ends 7/8 so I find it hard to believe we see Hernangomez.
Don't know why they'd give up that much for him. Even if you aren't super high on lavine (which I am) it doesn't make sense to push that young team onto the timeframe of Butler. Let them grow. They can control this corps for like 7-9 more years.
The dude can't play basketball
He's training with Greece so I doubt it.
He's 6'10 and mobile so that alone makes him worth at least giving a look to. For some reason he shot really well from 3 (limited attempts) in 2013-2014 and this past year but awful 2014-2015
Ian Begley
@IanBegley
From earlier: The Thunder, Nets & Mavericks are among teams expected to have interest in Knicks FA Lance Thomas:
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Ian Begley
@IanBegley
From earlier: The Thunder, Nets & Mavericks are among teams expected to have interest in Knicks FA Lance Thomas:
This is why I wanted to trade him mid season
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Ian Begley
@IanBegley
From earlier: The Thunder, Nets & Mavericks are among teams expected to have interest in Knicks FA Lance Thomas:
This is why I wanted to trade him mid season
not that simple. Because he was on a one year deal he had no-trade protection.
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In comment 13007835 LawrenceTaylor56 said:
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Ian Begley
@IanBegley
From earlier: The Thunder, Nets & Mavericks are among teams expected to have interest in Knicks FA Lance Thomas:
This is why I wanted to trade him mid season
not that simple. Because he was on a one year deal he had no-trade protection.
True, but even for a very late 2nd rounder he could've provided use as a 3andD wing for a contender like LAC, OKC, etc.
Grant went from 34.9% and 14.8% from 3 to 46.4% and 30.4% after break. The latter percentages don't look all that diff from Rose's post-ASB
but hey, BBI's crack team of basketball experts determined he was never going to amount to much so let's just throw him into any old trade.
LOL
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Chris Herring @HerringWSJ 22m22 minutes ago
Grant went from 34.9% and 14.8% from 3 to 46.4% and 30.4% after break. The latter percentages don't look all that diff from Rose's post-ASB
but hey, BBI's crack team of basketball experts determined he was never going to amount to much so let's just throw him into any old trade.
Cant shoot. Upside is a backup. Already a bust
30 M a year for JOAKIM NOAH!?!? Fuck that. I'm more than happy with DH12 or Pau
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Supposedly going to offer Joakim Noah a 4 year contract worth around 120 million. I like him, but that's a lot more then I thought he'd get.
30 M a year for JOAKIM NOAH!?!? Fuck that. I'm more than happy with DH12 or Pau
And this is why I scorn the people who shrug at the notion that losing Rolo was a big deal. And laugh at the people who talk about trading him as creating "flexibility".
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In comment 13007903 Big Rick in FL said:
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Supposedly going to offer Joakim Noah a 4 year contract worth around 120 million. I like him, but that's a lot more then I thought he'd get.
30 M a year for JOAKIM NOAH!?!? Fuck that. I'm more than happy with DH12 or Pau
And this is why I scorn the people who shrug at the notion that losing Rolo was a big deal. And laugh at the people who talk about trading him as creating "flexibility".
but we have cap space! We can sign anyone we want! The Dream Team ain't got shit on the 2017 Knicks!
The summer of crazy spending in the NBA is only days away and it is likely to start in Washington. But were not talking about the Wizards pursuit of Kevin Durant, which most observers regard as slightly delusional.
According to sources, the Wiz are locked in on making a major offer to Joakim Noah. The Wizards are said to be willing to offer Noah, coming off shoulder surgery that KOd him in January, a full maximum contract. His deal would start at $28 million and reach around $120 million over four seasons.
and then
If teams are convinced Noah is healthy, he will get a max deal, and Washington is panicking because Nene is done and they didnt make the playoffs last season, said one GM. Theyll overpay for Noah they always do.
Holy hell.
With his injury history? 30 million a year, are they nuts!? The RoLo deal looks like bargain basement pricing, and now pales in comparison.
The Washington Wizards are prepared to make a major offer to Joakim Noah in free agency.
Washington will offer Noah a full maximum contract that would start at $28 million and reach around $120 million over four seasons.
Noah is coming off shoulder surgery that ended his season in January.
Noah is expected to leave the Chicago Bulls this offseason and they traded for Robin Lopez previously this week. A source said Noah has no intentions of re-signing with the Bulls and is ready to move on this offseason.
The New York Knicks, Minnesota Timberwolves and Milwaukee Bucks are also preparing major offers to Noah.
Why would Dwight Howars sign for 1 or 2 years (or Pau for that matter) in a league where Noah gets 120 million over 4?
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Give me a year or two of Pau or Howard and hope that Willy kicks some serious ass and takes over the starting C role in a few years.
Why would Dwight Howars sign for 1 or 2 years (or Pau for that matter) in a league where Noah gets 120 million over 4?
Exactly. If we want them, we're paying max. Imv
Grant is a nice player, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to get hot and bothers because he raised his 3 PT % to 30? Come the fuck on.
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Give me a year or two of Pau or Howard and hope that Willy kicks some serious ass and takes over the starting C role in a few years.
Why would Dwight Howars sign for 1 or 2 years (or Pau for that matter) in a league where Noah gets 120 million over 4?
Because the cap will go up and Howard could use a prove it deal.
How much does Pau have left in the tank? He's up there in age? Will he really get a 4 year deal?
So he'd be a perfect stopgap for us until Willy is ready. Willy can learn behind Pau.
He might not get a multi year deal. The question with Pau is how much he can actually help the Knicks if he's acquirable.
Grant is a nice player, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to get hot and bothers because he raised his 3 PT % to 30? Come the fuck on.
if you think acquiring a broken down, declining player with one year on his contract is "filling a hole", I don't know what to tell you.
Will the NBA become uncapped soon?
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it's going to be easier to fill a hole at PG this offseason than a hole at C, I don't know what to tell you. Even if Noah gets some bonkers offer, Pau among others is still out there. We'll find a good fit.
Grant is a nice player, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to get hot and bothers because he raised his 3 PT % to 30? Come the fuck on.
if you think acquiring a broken down, declining player with one year on his contract is "filling a hole", I don't know what to tell you.
Rose put up 17 and 5 last year. on .470 from the field and .370 from 3 after the ASB. We started Jose Calderon. This isn't tough to figure out.
Will the NBA become uncapped soon?
NBA payroll now is a fucking joke with how many teams going over the cap to begin with. No cap means teams like NY, LA, Chicago, LAC will always have the best teams. They need to have a ceiling at some point. Teams were 20-30 million over the cap to begin with.
Grant is a nice player, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to get hot and bothers because he raised his 3 PT % to 30? Come the fuck on.
I reject the attitude that we had to fill a hole at PG this offseason. Notwithstanding Melo, we're rebuilding. It's roster whack-a-mole. Maybe you do that if you're much more competitive than us, but not as a 32 win team.
And in any event, Grant was at least a plausible plan, with JC as a backup. And Rolo WAS a hole filled at center (and frankly, is decently likely to be better than Rose this year). All for ~23 million this year, and 16-17 million going forward (or thereabouts -- I forget Grant's deal). Now we have one year of Rose for 20+ million and then we probably either commit to him (much riskier than Lopez, probably much much more costly) or let him walk for nothing. And a gaping hole at center.
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In comment 13007942 Jon in NYC said:
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it's going to be easier to fill a hole at PG this offseason than a hole at C, I don't know what to tell you. Even if Noah gets some bonkers offer, Pau among others is still out there. We'll find a good fit.
Grant is a nice player, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to get hot and bothers because he raised his 3 PT % to 30? Come the fuck on.
if you think acquiring a broken down, declining player with one year on his contract is "filling a hole", I don't know what to tell you.
Rose put up 17 and 5 last year. on .470 from the field and .370 from 3 after the ASB. We started Jose Calderon. This isn't tough to figure out.
amazing how people continually set the bar so low around here. And when if/when Rose leaves as a free agent, there's that pesky hole again!
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In comment 13007957 Enzo said:
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In comment 13007942 Jon in NYC said:
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it's going to be easier to fill a hole at PG this offseason than a hole at C, I don't know what to tell you. Even if Noah gets some bonkers offer, Pau among others is still out there. We'll find a good fit.
Grant is a nice player, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to get hot and bothers because he raised his 3 PT % to 30? Come the fuck on.
if you think acquiring a broken down, declining player with one year on his contract is "filling a hole", I don't know what to tell you.
Rose put up 17 and 5 last year. on .470 from the field and .370 from 3 after the ASB. We started Jose Calderon. This isn't tough to figure out.
amazing how people continually set the bar so low around here. And when if/when Rose leaves as a free agent, there's that pesky hole again!
With Grant and Calderon, the bar was already very low.
and all we gave up was fucking Sideshow Bob and Jerian Grant who people are all of a sudden way higher on now than when he was actually on our team?
and all we gave up was fucking Sideshow Bob and Jerian Grant who people are all of a sudden way higher on now than when he was actually on our team?
I think if you go back you'll see I've been massive a huge cheerleader for both of them.
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In comment 13007961 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13007957 Enzo said:
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In comment 13007942 Jon in NYC said:
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it's going to be easier to fill a hole at PG this offseason than a hole at C, I don't know what to tell you. Even if Noah gets some bonkers offer, Pau among others is still out there. We'll find a good fit.
Grant is a nice player, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to get hot and bothers because he raised his 3 PT % to 30? Come the fuck on.
if you think acquiring a broken down, declining player with one year on his contract is "filling a hole", I don't know what to tell you.
Rose put up 17 and 5 last year. on .470 from the field and .370 from 3 after the ASB. We started Jose Calderon. This isn't tough to figure out.
amazing how people continually set the bar so low around here. And when if/when Rose leaves as a free agent, there's that pesky hole again!
With Grant and Calderon, the bar was already very low.
if you feel that way, what does that say about who acquired both of them?
Probably the same who were pissed we threw in Timofy Mozgov in the Melo trade.
he could put up those numbers and be inefficient. He could put up those numbers over 20 games and then get hurt (again). Re-signing this guy to a big deal next summer is a terrifying prospect.
Anyone would love the best possible result. That's not a tough sell. What is there to say that he can be that, and what is there to say he can be available for 70-75 games at least.
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In comment 13007967 Enzo said:
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In comment 13007961 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13007957 Enzo said:
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In comment 13007942 Jon in NYC said:
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it's going to be easier to fill a hole at PG this offseason than a hole at C, I don't know what to tell you. Even if Noah gets some bonkers offer, Pau among others is still out there. We'll find a good fit.
Grant is a nice player, but all of a sudden I'm supposed to get hot and bothers because he raised his 3 PT % to 30? Come the fuck on.
if you think acquiring a broken down, declining player with one year on his contract is "filling a hole", I don't know what to tell you.
Rose put up 17 and 5 last year. on .470 from the field and .370 from 3 after the ASB. We started Jose Calderon. This isn't tough to figure out.
amazing how people continually set the bar so low around here. And when if/when Rose leaves as a free agent, there's that pesky hole again!
With Grant and Calderon, the bar was already very low.
if you feel that way, what does that say about who acquired both of them?
They wanted to be rid of Rose and had a ball-dominant 2 guard who is better when he's not there. This is a trade that can work for both teams. It's not necessarily a zero sum game. Not every trade has a definite winner and loser.
Probably the same who were pissed we threw in Timofy Mozgov in the Melo trade.
Being disappointed with a rookie's play is not equivalent to cutting bait. The book isn't closed on him because he wasn't an overnight success. We do this on the football side too, and it makes no sense. Draft pick doesn't pay dividends immediately, trade him for something shiny. It doesn't matter that that something shiny has limped through 39% of his games since initially getting hurt. It's new and shiny and I can hope for something awesome.
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When rose averages 17/7 this year, the detractors of the deal will beg for him to be resigned.
Anyone would love the best possible result. That's not a tough sell. What is there to say that he can be that, and what is there to say he can be available for 70-75 games at least.
He played 66 games last year, I don't think it's unreasonable for him to play 70+ games now that he is another year removed from knee surgery. As for the stats, he averaged 17 and 5 after the all-star break. Again, with more time away from surgery you would expect some improvement.
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In comment 13007979 dep026 said:
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When rose averages 17/7 this year, the detractors of the deal will beg for him to be resigned.
Anyone would love the best possible result. That's not a tough sell. What is there to say that he can be that, and what is there to say he can be available for 70-75 games at least.
He played 66 games last year, I don't think it's unreasonable for him to play 70+ games now that he is another year removed from knee surgery. As for the stats, he averaged 17 and 5 after the all-star break. Again, with more time away from surgery you would expect some improvement.
If it were one knee surgery, you can attempt to forecast. It wasn't. He had a torn ACL in one, and a twice-torn and repaired meniscus in the other. coming back from a procedure, but rather just staying in one piece.
At least we now have a shot at KD. This past Sunday we had no shot at him. Now we do.
by that measure, let's dump KP and Melo while we're at it. Who could we get for them? I wouldn't want Rose to be the only overpaid guy with questionable health on the roster. Maybe Bosh?
Not buying that shit.
For 120/4, it seems.
The point was Robin Lopez wasn't helping us with free agency. Derrick Rose might. Alan Hahn said KD had no interest meeting with us. Now he does. You have to take that chance.
The point was Robin Lopez wasn't helping us with free agency. Derrick Rose might. Alan Hahn said KD had no interest meeting with us. Now he does. You have to take that chance.
Pretty much this. You can apply the same logic to the summer of 2010. If Amare isn't here, Melo isn't forcing his way out of Denver to play with David Fucking Lee.
Star power. NY. Championships.
Probably the same who were pissed we threw in Timofy Mozgov in the Melo trade.
I've been saying precisely that forever. I said on Dec. 23:
Link - ( New Window )
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was a good interior defender and a good rebounder but lets not pretend that he's some world beater. He's replaceable.
For 120/4, it seems.
Maybe. We'll soon see what's noise and what isn't.
What we do know is that Noah is currently in NY partying with his boy D Rose.
I question how real that information is, but if it's real that's a no brainer.
Nope, still would want CP3
I would be on board with that.
Also very irrationally hyped for Rose.
At least we now have a shot at KD. This past Sunday we had no shot at him. Now we do.
The shit we should stop is that we have a "shot" at KD. Even if he gives us a meeting, we still don't have a shot. Kevin Durant is not staking his legacy on a Derrick Rose, a guy whose played 166 games since 2011. A guy who cant shoot, is not a great passer, cant play defense. Why in the fucking world would he leave OKC to come play with a 32 win team, who just lost its starting center and added a guy who was one of the worst starters in the league last year?
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But almost on every daily Knicks thread most of BBI was down on BBI. Now we're acting like he's Reggie Jackson who just needed a shot.
Probably the same who were pissed we threw in Timofy Mozgov in the Melo trade.
I've been saying precisely that forever. I said on Dec. 23:
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Grant's shot is not broken, it's just inconsistent. Get it consistent and he's Reggie Jackson (a player he was rightly compared to pre-draft). Jackson's shot didnt fall at first either. If KP eventually hits his potential (IMO, MVP candidate player), then a guy like Reggie Jackson is a huge piece. Look at the shit Dirk dragged to a Finals. A great defensive center and glorified roll players.
Well then.. I stand corrected with you. hah.
DRose, New York Knicks - ( New Window )
Pistons are shopping him and have told him he will be dealt
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what are you trading for him?
Pistons are shopping him and have told him he will be dealt
And some people say cucumbers taste better pickled.
What are you trading for him (I ask again)?
Apologize for nothing.
MVP
MVP
MVP
Championship!!!
But this case simply isn't like the other times. There isn't 4 years left on a deal like with STAT and there was no 1st round pick like with everyone else (like Bargnani). If it doesn't work, the team can move on very quickly and pain-free.
Personally, I have zero expectations for Rose. I hope he plays well this season, but I wouldn't keep him beyond this season either way.
Knicks undrafted free agent agreements so far: Ron Baker from Wichita State and Marshall Plumlee from Duke.
Duke's Marshall Plumlee has agreed to a guaranteed undrafted free-agent deal with the New York Knicks, league sources tell The Vertical.
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But the pessimistic nature of fans is completely understandable.
But this case simply isn't like the other times. There isn't 4 years left on a deal like with STAT and there was no 1st round pick like with everyone else (like Bargnani). If it doesn't work, the team can move on very quickly and pain-free.
Personally, I have zero expectations for Rose. I hope he plays well this season, but I wouldn't keep him beyond this season either way.
Not being long term also caps the upside of the deal, severely. I'd like the deal more if he had 2 years on it.
And if the deal busts, it's not "pain-free". We gave up a starting center on a good deal and the #19 overall pick in last year's draft. Why is that such a difficult concept for people to understand? Some draft pick down the road would be pain, but Lopez and Grant are pain free?
Rose is a better defender than the "stats" say as well. Any PG would look pitiful when Gasol is your big in a pick and roll.
::ducks::
two things:
some posters above are urging that WH (Hernangomez) can come here and fill the 5 slot, really? Does he have the size, heft, talent, even potentially?
gotta say I agree with sgrcts, this:
Rose is a better defender than the "stats" say as well. Any PG would look pitiful when Gasol is your big in a pick and roll.
No you dumb fuck. Neither Calderon or Rose is any good. We gave up assets to get a not good, often injured player with no skills that will age well. Additionally, Rose is a ball dominant guard who shoots a lot and isn't good at the PNR so how does he benefit Porzingis?
Im ready for New York.
Rose: I'm Ready for New York - ( New Window )
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is just mad that you downgraded at point guard from Calderon to Rose..... because some stupid stat says so. Forget the eye injury earlier in the year the affected his play.
Rose is a better defender than the "stats" say as well. Any PG would look pitiful when Gasol is your big in a pick and roll.
No you dumb fuck. Neither Calderon or Rose is any good. We gave up assets to get a not good, often injured player with no skills that will age well. Additionally, Rose is a ball dominant guard who shoots a lot and isn't good at the PNR so how does he benefit Porzingis?
Actually Gasol got a lot of open looks from PnR with Rose and buried a ton of mid range jumpers when he played in Chicago. And tell me who was as remotely good on Chicago that compares to Melo that he has played with in the past? He has never played with a scorer who can shoot like a Melo or even a Porz.
How would you know he is/was ball dominant? You watch more than 4-5 games of his career? He was ball dominant because he HAD to be ball dominant. Before Butler came on board.... his starting two guards were Keith Bogans, Kyle Korver, and washed out rip Hamilton. For how good Butler is/was, he wasnt a spot up shooter in the likes of what the Knicks have.
Holy fuck, I knew you were stupid..... but I didnt know you were this stupid.
Unless they're directed at Enzo.
Ignore all the facts about Rose's game, how Butlers #s are vastly better with Rose on the bench, whatever other info you want- dep026 says he's still got it!
Seriously though, tell us more about how Derrick Rose is a stud and we should be happy to have him! I cant remember which idiot it was, you or Chris R, who was trying to convince us(or more like yourselves) that Rose was going to jump HIGHER after his knee surgeries.
Ignore all the facts about Rose's game, how Butlers #s are vastly better with Rose on the bench, whatever other info you want- dep026 says he's still got it!
1. Never said he was a stud.... just said he could be a very productive player.
2. Never said that shit about him jumping higher after him injuring his knees.
So once again you are providing how fucking stupid you are because you make shit up as you go.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html
I maybe a simpleton, but here is the explanation of defensive/offensive ratings..... seems pretty advance to me when you need formulas and calculations to come up with how a player is performing.
You can show me all you want with Jimmy Butler's numbers without rose on the floor. Butler is an all-star player, a better player than rose right now. By the way....how good have the Bulls been since rose got hurt a few years ago? They win 1 playoff series without him? Against a massively ovverated Nets squad?
Keep bring the stupid sgrcts. Between you and radar, I dont know who is fucking dumber.
And if the deal busts, it's not "pain-free". We gave up a starting center on a good deal and the #19 overall pick in last year's draft. Why is that such a difficult concept for people to understand? Some draft pick down the road would be pain, but Lopez and Grant are pain free?
Grant literally showed nothing as a rookie. That's not a guarantee that he won't have some value at a later point, but he can't be an "asset" solely because he was the 19th pick in the previous draft. How many teams do you think would've traded a 1st rounder yesterday for Grant based on what they saw in 2015-2016? I think saying more than one is a stretch.
The starting center they gave up was replaced the previous season by Mason Plumlee/Meyers Leonard and there was no ensuing catastrophe. The starting center played as well as could be expected and the Knicks won 30 games with him.
As to that link- you must really be afraid of math or something, I don't know what to tell you. The stat is as simple to understand as any stat in sports, and Rose is awful by that, or basically any metric. Except dep026's eyes!!! championship!
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And if the deal busts, it's not "pain-free". We gave up a starting center on a good deal and the #19 overall pick in last year's draft. Why is that such a difficult concept for people to understand? Some draft pick down the road would be pain, but Lopez and Grant are pain free?
Grant literally showed nothing as a rookie. That's not a guarantee that he won't have some value at a later point, but he can't be an "asset" solely because he was the 19th pick in the previous draft. How many teams do you think would've traded a 1st rounder yesterday for Grant based on what they saw in 2015-2016? I think saying more than one is a stretch.
The starting center they gave up was replaced the previous season by Mason Plumlee/Meyers Leonard and there was no ensuing catastrophe. The starting center played as well as could be expected and the Knicks won 30 games with him.
How many teams? 10-15 I'd say after watching how little value teams were placing on non-lottery picks. You can say he "literally" showed nothing but you'd be literally wrong. In fact he showed he could get to the rim at will, he could defend, and better than any other guard he got people the ball in the right spot (a skill that shows up in the FG% stats of guys who took his passes). After the ASG, he shot 46.4%/30.4%/77.5% -- pretty respectable. Per 37 minutes (doubling his 18:27 post ASG mpg) he rated 15 points, 4.2 assists, 2.6 rebounds, 1.8 steals. Your point is "literally" dumb.
As for Rolo, Mason Plumlee is a good player. Where are we getting a Mason Plumlee this offseason without blowing the bank or trading an asset? Tell me the player and the compensation please.
As to that link- you must really be afraid of math or something, I don't know what to tell you. The stat is as simple to understand as any stat in sports, and Rose is awful by that, or basically any metric. Except dep026's eyes!!! championship!
You do realize when you go to each players rating... it's listed right under the category "advsnce" right?
I thought he was particularly impressive during the playoffs, especially as he stepped up into a distributor role against the Clips when LA effectively trapped POR's guards. In the playoffs Plumlee averaged (per 36): 9.1 points, 15.3 rebounds (matched against the great DeAndre), and a whopping 6.2 assists.
I'd love to have Mason Plumlee.
Maybe he's not elite but he came up big against the clippers. Sure, CP3 and BG went down but he went up against Jordan and put up 8, 12 and 6.
It's not all about going "small" it's about having a 5 that can make plays. Maybe Lopez wasn't exactly that but he averaged like 2-3 assists per game and knew how to play in an offense.
Oh whoops fucking forgot there were 3 of them. If that's the youngest one then yeah you're right.
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Plumlee sucks. He's a warm body and nothing more.
Oh whoops fucking forgot there were 3 of them. If that's the youngest one then yeah you're right.
Yeah, Mason is definitely passable. Marshall got bench for major stretches at Duke. He blows.
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In comment 13008155 Jon in NYC said:
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Plumlee sucks. He's a warm body and nothing more.
Oh whoops fucking forgot there were 3 of them. If that's the youngest one then yeah you're right.
Yeah, Mason is definitely passable. Marshall got bench for major stretches at Duke. He blows.
I thought that one had a service requirement.
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In comment 13008144 Deej said:
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How many teams? 10-15 I'd say after watching how little value teams were placing on non-lottery picks. You can say he "literally" showed nothing but you'd be literally wrong. In fact he showed he could get to the rim at will, he could defend, and better than any other guard he got people the ball in the right spot (a skill that shows up in the FG% stats of guys who took his passes). After the ASG, he shot 46.4%/30.4%/77.5% -- pretty respectable. Per 37 minutes (doubling his 18:27 post ASG mpg) he rated 15 points, 4.2 assists, 2.6 rebounds, 1.8 steals. Your point is "literally" dumb.
As for Rolo, Mason Plumlee is a good player. Where are we getting a Mason Plumlee this offseason without blowing the bank or trading an asset? Tell me the player and the compensation please.
Calm down... we don't agree about what Grant showed or how difficult it will be to replace Lopez, but I wouldn't call your opinion dumb. I believe that if Grant showed something/anything that indicated future NBA starter, Phil wouldn't have traded him. You obviously have a MUCH higher opinion of what you saw from him than I do or the Knicks front office ultimately did.
As I've said in previous threads, the value of centers to winning franchises is lower than it's ever been. I don't think you really need to "replace" Robin Lopez. Mozgov could do the exact same thing as Plumlee and he wouldn't cost 15 million a year. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd team All-NBA centers since 2014 have 2 playoff victories among them. I wouldn't make the mistake of giving Noah or Howard a pile of money either. I hope the Knicks avoid that too.
I never said Robin Lopez sucked... not once. I do think it's been proven he can be replaced without paying anyone the same amount he was getting paid. But please, continue with your rant.
OKC neutralized GS by having a center that you couldn't go small against because he outrebounded and could switch on screens. Lopez may not be all of that, I'll admit but he gives you many of those things. OKC beat the Spurs by playing 2 centers against them.
Your argument conveniently leaves out Jordan, who didn't advance a round because 2 other All NBA teammates got knocked out.
We can sit here and argue about whether Tristan Thompson is a true center or not but the reality is would you play KP 40 minutes against him in a playoff game? I'm part of the "KP as a center bandwagon" but that's still many years away. There needs to be a legit center on this team for another 4 years but I'm not sure I want to drop $100M on just anyone of them.
Ignore all the facts about Rose's game, how Butlers #s are vastly better with Rose on the bench, whatever other info you want- dep026 says he's still got it!
Butler's stats with Rose on the bench don't say anything about how Rose will fare in New York. They just show what everyone already knew, the two guys clashed and never figured out how to coexist on the court.
Rose played better when Butler was on the bench, does that mean Butler is a piece of shit too?
In the 8 games that Rose played but Butler didn't due to injury, Rose averaged 21.7 pts, 6.1 assists, 4.6 rebounds and shot 45.9% from the field.
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You are an idiot, so it doesn't mean anything. You are the same guy who thinks Orating and Drating are "advanced" stats, therefore should be thrown out the window because your minuscule brain cant comprehend them. Seriously though, tell us more about how Derrick Rose is a stud and we should be happy to have him! I cant remember which idiot it was, you or Chris R, who was trying to convince us(or more like yourselves) that Rose was going to jump HIGHER after his knee surgeries.
Ignore all the facts about Rose's game, how Butlers #s are vastly better with Rose on the bench, whatever other info you want- dep026 says he's still got it!
Butler's stats with Rose on the bench don't say anything about how Rose will fare in New York. They just show what everyone already knew, the two guys clashed and never figured out how to coexist on the court.
Rose played better when Butler was on the bench, does that mean Butler is a piece of shit too?
In the 8 games that Rose played but Butler didn't due to injury, Rose averaged 21.7 pts, 6.1 assists, 4.6 rebounds and shot 45.9% from the field.
Shhhh... we need calculated formulas to determine if these stats mean anything.
Calm down... we don't agree about what Grant showed or how difficult it will be to replace Lopez, but I wouldn't call your opinion dumb. I believe that if Grant showed something/anything that indicated future NBA starter, Phil wouldn't have traded him. You obviously have a MUCH higher opinion of what you saw from him than I do or the Knicks front office ultimately did.
Yes but your dismissal of Grant's promising post ASG play as showing "literally nothing" is nonsensical.
There are a bunch of Knicks fans just dismissing the cost we paid in this trade because, as Dan said, they're star fuckers. They like big names. Well Rolo and Grant were probably going to give us about 9-10 wins, and if I had to pick o/u I'd bet the over. And then the next year, and the next year. One year of Rose better be worth 20+ wins (not gonna happen) to make up for that cheap production. Which is fine IF THERE IS A REASON TO GO ALL IN. But there wasnt. This team isnt close, and shouldnt be using two assets for short term fixes.
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Calm down... we don't agree about what Grant showed or how difficult it will be to replace Lopez, but I wouldn't call your opinion dumb. I believe that if Grant showed something/anything that indicated future NBA starter, Phil wouldn't have traded him. You obviously have a MUCH higher opinion of what you saw from him than I do or the Knicks front office ultimately did.
Yes but your dismissal of Grant's promising post ASG play as showing "literally nothing" is nonsensical.
There are a bunch of Knicks fans just dismissing the cost we paid in this trade because, as Dan said, they're star fuckers. They like big names. Well Rolo and Grant were probably going to give us about 9-10 wins, and if I had to pick o/u I'd bet the over. And then the next year, and the next year. One year of Rose better be worth 20+ wins (not gonna happen) to make up for that cheap production. Which is fine IF THERE IS A REASON TO GO ALL IN. But there wasnt. This team isnt close, and shouldnt be using two assets for short term fixes.
Does your analysis suggest that RoLo and Grant are combined worth 9-10 wins above replacement player? I don't think they are using the eyesight test, so do you have metrics to back that up? I could be wrong, of course.
The starting center they gave up was replaced the previous season by Mason Plumlee/Meyers Leonard and there was no ensuing catastrophe. The starting center played as well as could be expected and the Knicks won 30 games with him.
This is no way to evaluate talent. Tired of seeing this posted as some kind of validation. It's about as insightful as "Giants have a losing season for 3 years, Eli = bum"
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In comment 13008243 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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Calm down... we don't agree about what Grant showed or how difficult it will be to replace Lopez, but I wouldn't call your opinion dumb. I believe that if Grant showed something/anything that indicated future NBA starter, Phil wouldn't have traded him. You obviously have a MUCH higher opinion of what you saw from him than I do or the Knicks front office ultimately did.
Yes but your dismissal of Grant's promising post ASG play as showing "literally nothing" is nonsensical.
There are a bunch of Knicks fans just dismissing the cost we paid in this trade because, as Dan said, they're star fuckers. They like big names. Well Rolo and Grant were probably going to give us about 9-10 wins, and if I had to pick o/u I'd bet the over. And then the next year, and the next year. One year of Rose better be worth 20+ wins (not gonna happen) to make up for that cheap production. Which is fine IF THERE IS A REASON TO GO ALL IN. But there wasnt. This team isnt close, and shouldnt be using two assets for short term fixes.
Does your analysis suggest that RoLo and Grant are combined worth 9-10 wins above replacement player? I don't think they are using the eyesight test, so do you have metrics to back that up? I could be wrong, of course.
Im guessing off of winshares. I think Grant is a lot like Reggie Jackson, who produced 2.5, 5, and 5. I give Grant 2.5 per year. Conservative I think. Rolo I think is a 7 win player based on his last 3 seasons, adjusting for injury time lost. Also conservative -- his WS rate over 3 years times 2400 minutes is 7.6. Nore sure how many a replacement player gives you. We had guys who were negative.
Johnson from unc will be swallowed whole in the NBA mark my words. Doesn't do anything great to stand out against the NBA talents.
I think the most promising thing you can look at is his progression through last season - he started off trash, mainly due to playing through the eye injury that impaired his vision (didn't stop people criticizing him though). A testament to his work ethic, he developed a bank shot that was one of his best weapons last season, purely in that time, to compensate for the inability to gauge distance. He probably shot the most bank jumpers in the league last season, and he maintained it even when his eye improved.
His 3 point shooting was trash for the majority of the season, but I think it was the last 20-30 games or so, he shot it really well, so fingers crossed that continues.
His driving got more and more aggressive as the year went on.. though obviously not back to the reckless abandon of his prime years. The more shiftiness you see from him, the better the signs are. Chances are you'll be lucky to see him dunk all season, he's made an effort to stop doing that, though he occasionally puts one in.
As a 'PG', he's no amazing playmaker, as I'm sure you realize. His best ability setting up others is using his penetration to create looks for others. The better his scoring game is, the better his assist game is. He throws really firm, hard passes which I love, but he's not going to be overly creative or wow you with his vision or craftiness setting up others. Just a solid fundamental guy. He was also really effective with Gasol on offense; they'd frequently run a two man game and hitting Pau on the pop would be a bread and butter play for us, hopefully he finds a similar connection with Kristaps.
He hasn't gotten to the FT line a whole heap, especially post-injuries, sometimes he gets shafted by the refs but for the most part he's always been an 'avoid contact' guy. This hurts his offensive efficiency somewhat, combined with him being an effective mid-range shooter rather than a long range one.
Defense was really poor last season, hopefully that improves. The front office called him out for his defense at the end season presser. A degree of it has to do with his confidence defending laterally with his knees, imo. Either way, he's been a high level defender when motivated in the past, and hopefully improves again this season. His defensive issues were compounded by terrible PnR defense from our big men, particularly Gasol. Teams would run those two to death in the PnR last season to capitalize.
If Rose stays healthy, he's going to be have a great season, definitely his best since the injuries, imo. A fresh start, new support, and a contract year should inspire him to have some great basketball, not to mention he's coming off his most complete season yet, having played 66 games. He won't have to share PG duties with Butler, and he should have much better spacing in NY as well, so he's in a good position to succeed.
Oh, and Rose and Joakim are BFF's. Them trading Rose is the main reason Jo doesn't want to come back, imo. Between that and his NY roots, I honestly think his ideal destination is NY, but if teams like Washington are offering him the max, I don't think he can say no.
From 12/25 to 3/24 (35 games):
19.4 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.4 apg on 53.4% TS in 31.4 mpg (22/4/5 per 36), with the following shooting splits:
0-3 feet: 57%
4-9 feet: 50%
10-15 feet: 43%
16 feet - 3P: 41%
3P: 36%
FT: 85%
I left out some bad games after that, but he was playing through a minor elbow injury and basically couldn't use one arm for a few games. He wasn't perfectly healthy during the above stretch either, needing to rest 1-2 games here or there, but the rest allowed him to stay effective. I think that if it weren't for the eye injury, he could have started out putting up numbers like that and gotten better from there. There are still plenty of things he can improve on - getting to the FT line more, playing more consistent defense, making more plays for teammates - but I believe that now that he's somewhat over the hurdle of getting his scoring touch back, the rest of his game will start coming back too, IF he stays relatively healthy for an extended period of time.
Derrick Rose says he is "close" to returning MVP form. But he'd rather not talking about it, choosing to let his "game speak for itself."
It's a no lose situation. He stinks it up or gets hurt, he's gone in the off-season without sacrificing your long term future. If he succeeds, then you have solved your PG problem and have a guy who clearly bolsters NY as a destination. And KD supposedly said hed only consider Knicks if they improved their backcourt situation.
Haters going to hate this was the right move for the current situation
Melo KP and Rose at MSG- combined 75 pts - ( New Window )
Derrick Rose says he is "close" to returning MVP form. But he'd rather not talking about it, choosing to let his "game speak for itself."
It's a no lose situation. He stinks it up or gets hurt, he's gone in the off-season without sacrificing your long term future. If he succeeds, then you have solved your PG problem and have a guy who clearly bolsters NY as a destination. And KD supposedly said hed only consider Knicks if they improved their backcourt situation.
Haters going to hate this was the right move for the current situation
Him putting together a standout but not stellar season might be my worst fear. I just love the caliber of PGs next year, Lowry and CP3 especially. They are both two way players who are willing passers. Say what you want about how good Rose is but he's never been praised for his defense and unselfishness. He's the Kobe in PG form. Which is why I think it's not surprising he hasn't been able to adjust. He struggles in pick and roll because no one respects his jumper and he doesn't have the best awareness either. I'm going to root for him, no doubt. But best case scenario we land one of those 2 true PGs next season.
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Ian Begley @IanBegley
Derrick Rose says he is "close" to returning MVP form. But he'd rather not talking about it, choosing to let his "game speak for itself."
It's a no lose situation. He stinks it up or gets hurt, he's gone in the off-season without sacrificing your long term future. If he succeeds, then you have solved your PG problem and have a guy who clearly bolsters NY as a destination. And KD supposedly said hed only consider Knicks if they improved their backcourt situation.
Haters going to hate this was the right move for the current situation
Him putting together a standout but not stellar season might be my worst fear. I just love the caliber of PGs next year, Lowry and CP3 especially. They are both two way players who are willing passers. Say what you want about how good Rose is but he's never been praised for his defense and unselfishness. He's the Kobe in PG form. Which is why I think it's not surprising he hasn't been able to adjust. He struggles in pick and roll because no one respects his jumper and he doesn't have the best awareness either.
1. Kyle Lowry is bit overrated. Not saying Rose is better than him, but if commands a max contract, your foolish for taking him.
2. Rose isnt a defensive player like CP3, but he can defend. You will be shocked at well he actually defends (believe it or not, he tunes it up for the elite guards.)
3. Rose is anything but a selfish player. He is more than a willing passer but for the majority of his career, he had to be the guy.
4. Rose is more than adequate in the pick and roll offense. Boozer and Gasol got NUMEROUS open jumpers with the PnR. Also, if Bigs play off of him, his mid range jumper is actually qutie good. And he lives off bigs playing off of him, because it just gives him more room to attack.
The one shot he really improved upon is his wing bank shot. It was really reliable at the end of the year.
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In comment 13008447 Coach Mason said:
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Ian Begley @IanBegley
Derrick Rose says he is "close" to returning MVP form. But he'd rather not talking about it, choosing to let his "game speak for itself."
It's a no lose situation. He stinks it up or gets hurt, he's gone in the off-season without sacrificing your long term future. If he succeeds, then you have solved your PG problem and have a guy who clearly bolsters NY as a destination. And KD supposedly said hed only consider Knicks if they improved their backcourt situation.
Haters going to hate this was the right move for the current situation
Him putting together a standout but not stellar season might be my worst fear. I just love the caliber of PGs next year, Lowry and CP3 especially. They are both two way players who are willing passers. Say what you want about how good Rose is but he's never been praised for his defense and unselfishness. He's the Kobe in PG form. Which is why I think it's not surprising he hasn't been able to adjust. He struggles in pick and roll because no one respects his jumper and he doesn't have the best awareness either.
1. Kyle Lowry is bit overrated. Not saying Rose is better than him, but if commands a max contract, your foolish for taking him.
2. Rose isnt a defensive player like CP3, but he can defend. You will be shocked at well he actually defends (believe it or not, he tunes it up for the elite guards.)
3. Rose is anything but a selfish player. He is more than a willing passer but for the majority of his career, he had to be the guy.
4. Rose is more than adequate in the pick and roll offense. Boozer and Gasol got NUMEROUS open jumpers with the PnR. Also, if Bigs play off of him, his mid range jumper is actually qutie good. And he lives off bigs playing off of him, because it just gives him more room to attack.
The one shot he really improved upon is his wing bank shot. It was really reliable at the end of the year.
Health as usual is the biggest variable but make no mistake this is a HUGE get. NBA has become all about playing with your 'star' buddy on a team. Melo,KP and Rose are all highly regarded by other players. KD could seriously consider us now. Best case scenario, if we get him we contend for a championship next year (if guys stay healthy) . Worst case no KD and Rose gets hurt and we have room for 2 maxes next year (providing no overpay for a 2nd tier guy).
espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/16427670/chicago-bulls-trade-derrick-rose-new-york-knicks-nba
But sure I'll agree he hasn't had the teammates. Though Boozer, Deng, and Gasol aren't exactly chop liver. Not sure how much better NY is gonna be overall as an offensive team than peak Bulls teams this season.
I can see why people think Lowry is overrated but the way he played in the playoffs is undeniable. Talking about not having good teammates. Him and Derozan didn't exactly have top tier chemistry together. He's able to grind it out and get fouls in the half court and is relentless on defense.
If Rose puts up a season like Lowry did last year I would consider that fantastic. But even if you think Lowry is overrated I don't see how giving rose a max contract over him is justified. I mean investing $120M with someone with his knees isn't exactly exciting. I think even the most avid Rose supporter would recognize that. Especially when we are talking about the Knicks.
espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/16427670/chicago-bulls-trade-derrick-rose-new-york-knicks-nba
But sure I'll agree he hasn't had the teammates. Though Boozer, Deng, and Gasol aren't exactly chop liver. Not sure how much better NY is gonna be overall as an offensive team than peak Bulls teams this season.
I can see why people think Lowry is overrated but the way he played in the playoffs is undeniable. Talking about not having good teammates. Him and Derozan didn't exactly have top tier chemistry together. He's able to grind it out and get fouls in the half court and is relentless on defense.
If Rose puts up a season like Lowry did last year I would consider that fantastic. But even if you think Lowry is overrated I don't see how giving rose a max contract over him is justified. I mean investing $120M with someone with his knees isn't exactly exciting. I think even the most avid Rose supporter would recognize that. Especially when we are talking about the Knicks.
Gasol and boozer were the main pick bigs, however they really weren't rollers. They picked and popped. Deng was rarely ever used in a pick plays. But I'll put it this way... the thought of passing to Melo and porz, is much more enticing than gasol and whoeever. Gasol had his moments... but I think he will have no problem dishing it off to those 2.
And remmeber the 3rd guy who picked a lot for rose.... Noah. I don't think even noah wanted the ball passed to him.
Melo by himself is a tier of offensive ability the Bulls never had. And you'd expect that an offensive-minded coach would help the situation too. The bulls' best offense was their defense.
Melo by himself is a tier of offensive ability the Bulls never had. And you'd expect that an offensive-minded coach would help the situation too. The bulls' best offense was their defense.
Thibs spent 80% of practice if not more onndefense. Great defensive coach. Average on offense.
Nope
This is no way to evaluate talent. Tired of seeing this posted as some kind of validation. It's about as insightful as "Giants have a losing season for 3 years, Eli = bum"
I don't quite get your last point because I never said that Robin Lopez wasn't good for the Knicks last season. What I have said repeatedly is that having a Robin Lopez isn't a necessity for teams who're where we want to be like the playoffs, deep in the playoffs, and eventually competing for a title. The Celtics don't have a center who's half as good as Lopez. I've also said that in today's NBA, a center is less important than the other positions, especially PG. This is a guards, wings, and stretch 4/5 league now. Because of those reasons, it's not necessary for the Knicks to get an exact replacement for RoLo.
I love what the Blazers did. They acquired Plumlee with a 1st round pick. They signed Ed Davis and Al Farouq Aminu for 2 million more than RoLo makes in a season. They acquired Allen Crabbe (a few years ago) and Mo Harkless with 2nd round picks. I'd love to see the Knicks spread that money around and improve the overall depth and athleticism of the team. I'm not going to be one of these people bitching and moaning about how will they ever replace Robin Lopez. KP isn't ready to play center 35+ minutes a night for 80+ games yet, but he will be in a few years. Until then, a short-term stopgap or 20 minute a night guy will suffice.
Sign Durant or sign batum and noah?
Sign Durant or sign batum and noah?
Durant
Sign Durant or sign batum and noah?
Lol is that a choice? Batum and Noah is asking for a second round exit.
So if we don't get Durant do we just sign players on a 1 year deal and hope to luck up in free agency next year?
So if we don't get Durant do we just sign players on a 1 year deal and hope to luck up in free agency next year?
If you read Berman article he basically admits he hasn't been able to confirm knicks have a meeting so instead he goes with the dire straights type of article rather than just saying no time confirmed yet...
If he is meeting with teams in new York he is going to meet with the knicks, he is not going to spurn 2 of his better friends in the league
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I know you don't say no to Durant but say you had the choice...
Sign Durant or sign batum and noah?
Lol is that a choice? Batum and Noah is asking for a second round exit.
2nd round exit? How do you figure?
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That Durant has set meetings with teams & the Knicks don't have one yet.
So if we don't get Durant do we just sign players on a 1 year deal and hope to luck up in free agency next year?
If you read Berman article he basically admits he hasn't been able to confirm knicks have a meeting so instead he goes with the dire straights type of article rather than just saying no time confirmed yet...
If he is meeting with teams in new York he is going to meet with the knicks, he is not going to spurn 2 of his better friends in the league
Its been confirmed he is working out with Melo right now and that they are very very close.It also sounds like hes doing all his interviewing out of New York. I have seen multiple reports he wanted the Knicks to improve their backcourt to consider them. With that said, I would be amazed if we dont get a legit in depth meeting and strong consideration.
He just saw Lebron leave Miami and bring a championship to a city he loves. If he thinks he can win one here (Melo,KP,Rose and Durant if healthy is a 4 some up there with any in the NBA) we have a shot at this.
Obviously adding him to SA or GS (or staying in OKC) would make those teams pretty unstoppable too but one can not discount NY as a very favorable situation at this point as well.
It could come down to what the additional peices will be around the big 4. Some of the biggest weakness would be a defensive stopper at the 5 (Noah but will he sign for less to fit both?) and getting a guy that can play some legit SG minutes (preferably a strong defender)
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In comment 13008609 nygiants16 said:
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I know you don't say no to Durant but say you had the choice...
Sign Durant or sign batum and noah?
Lol is that a choice? Batum and Noah is asking for a second round exit.
2nd round exit? How do you figure?
Absolutely 0 depth.