(Let's try this again. No hard feelings, Shadow. The consensus just seemed to be that those Reddit spoilers crossed the line.)
This is the weekly free-for-all thread. As usual, the main constraint is not to post information from advance viewing of the actual episode. So, if you received a DVD from your cousin at HBO that shows Cersei Lannister napalming the Great Sept of Baelor, please keep it to yourself. Anything else is fair game,
BUT...
IF YOU HAVE GOOD REASON TO THINK A SPOILER CAME FROM SOMEBODY WHO HAS ALREADY SEEN THE EPISODE, PLEASE BE COURTEOUS ABOUT POSTING
Official HBO synopsis:
Link to official photos is below, courtesy of Watchers on the Wall.
Predictions:
1. Loras swears off the big D.
2. So does Daenerys (for now).
3. Frey pies! Frey smoothies! Freyburgers! Frey Fries!
4. Monkfries: Cersei chooses more violence... much more... maybe more than she intended.
5. T.o.J.: R + L = J + x. Solve for x.
Week 9 Death Pool Winners: Ramsay Bolton, Rickon Stark, Smalljon Umber, Wun Weg Wun Dar Dun, Free Folk, Northmen, Yunkish and Astapori slavers (and their crewmen, most of whom were likely slaves - oops), Sons of the Harpy. Status of Harald Karstark and the Harpy herself still TBD.
Death Pool Opening Favorites for Week 10 - bloodbath expected:
Lyanna Stark (vision) 1-10
High Sparrow 1-2
Septa Unella 1-2
Lancel Lannister and anonymous FM devotees 1-2
Walder Frey, his heirs and successors 1-2
Loras Tyrell 1-1
Grand Maester Pycelle 1-1
Kevan Lannister 3-2
Tommen Baratheon 2-1
Melisandre of Assha'i 2-1
Margaery Tyrell 4-1
Euron Greyjoy 8-1
Davos Seaworth 10-1
Jon might also need to behead Harald Karstark, if the little weasel is still alive. Or maybe Jon and Sansa start rebuilding the Northern Alliance by pardoning Karstark. Somebody has to defend Karhold in the War to Come.
(I'll repost the rest of the prior thread below.)
Episode 10 Photos at Watchersonthewall.com - (
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2. In the books Littlefinger's master plan is heading towards a curious and underwhelming climax considering the masterful moves he makes early on. It seems like the show put him in the only position he could wind up, but again it's really underwhelming in light of the cunning he's shown to date. All of that chaos in King's Landing thanks to him, improving lordships and lands, all for...a creepy, awkward marriage proposal to a girl who you rented out to a sadist and who's family you helped kill? Seems like a really stupid plan for a guy who gets by on his wit. Equally stupid is announcing your ambitions for the throne and trying to turn the same girl against the only family she has left.
3. They predictably glossed over the poor writing of Sansa's secret pact with the Vale. Why so secret? She apologized and it was vaguely hinted that she said nothing because she didn't trust Jon. Weak.
4. Lyanna Stark was not hot enough.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to analyze Lyanna's whispering for the next 10 months.
Hopefully Meera is there to help Bran carry on the Stark name!
2. In the books Littlefinger's master plan is heading towards a curious and underwhelming climax considering the masterful moves he makes early on. It seems like the show put him in the only position he could wind up, but again it's really underwhelming in light of the cunning he's shown to date. All of that chaos in King's Landing thanks to him, improving lordships and lands, all for...a creepy, awkward marriage proposal to a girl who you rented out to a sadist and who's family you helped kill? Seems like a really stupid plan for a guy who gets by on his wit. Equally stupid is announcing your ambitions for the throne and trying to turn the same girl against the only family she has left.
3. They predictably glossed over the poor writing of Sansa's secret pact with the Vale. Why so secret? She apologized and it was vaguely hinted that she said nothing because she didn't trust Jon. Weak.
4. Lyanna Stark was not hot enough.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to analyze Lyanna's whispering for the next 10 months.
Any setup with Arya would have ruined the surprise. I liked it.
We dont know how much time passed between when she left and when she got to the twins. It had to be a decent amount of time considering jaime had packed up his army and returned from taking riverrun, right?
I had no problem with the Arya storyline, I thought it was well done. I think we all realize now that the individual storylines do not all take place simultaneously.
I loved her revenge. Exactly what I wanted to see. Loved the episode overall, feel like we have most of the pieces in order for the ending. Littlefinger baffles me - don't know where he's headed but the North appears to be out of the game of thrones and he surely is not. Not sure where it leaves him. It was important to show Sansa no longer being manipulated by him, but I can't imagine he's just going to slink off to the Vale and wait out the wars.
Cool that Cersei is the main villain now - but unless she has some moves up her sleave, she's fucked. Several armies against her now. Unless something happens to deflect Daenerys' troops she's fucked. Perhaps the simple answer is the correct one, Cersei isn't long for the throne and Daenerys will run her over. Though Euron and Littlefinger would seem to be the only wrenches to that end.
Sort out the South and then deal with the dead?
I still predict a change after the war to a collaborative form of gov't, perhaps with several independent regions working together like the UK, but they are moving Dany to be the person to lead that change. I think Jon will be the one to lead the battle against the dead but will die a hero. Jon did have his experience at the Wall where he made largely noble decisions for the greater good but was wasted on the likes at the Wall but his story seems more tragic than Dany's.
2. In the books Littlefinger's master plan is heading towards a curious and underwhelming climax considering the masterful moves he makes early on. It seems like the show put him in the only position he could wind up, but again it's really underwhelming in light of the cunning he's shown to date. All of that chaos in King's Landing thanks to him, improving lordships and lands, all for...a creepy, awkward marriage proposal to a girl who you rented out to a sadist and who's family you helped kill? Seems like a really stupid plan for a guy who gets by on his wit. Equally stupid is announcing your ambitions for the throne and trying to turn the same girl against the only family she has left.
3. They predictably glossed over the poor writing of Sansa's secret pact with the Vale. Why so secret? She apologized and it was vaguely hinted that she said nothing because she didn't trust Jon. Weak.
4. Lyanna Stark was not hot enough.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to analyze Lyanna's whispering for the next 10 months.
I don't care too much about the timeline other than the awkwardness of, you have to specifically stop and tell yourself to suspend disbelief. I put that off to being television just can't do justice to the same things that books can. Which is why movies are invariably not as good as the book for pretty much anything.
The one thing I didn't care for is that killing virtually everyone in the sept is a book thing. "We have too many characters to pay and follow; lets just get rid of them all". I can see a couple being offed in the book, but not all in one fell swoop. It's 100% an expedience thing and not a narrative thing. Now, I wonder if that will drive the book or whether it will be a divergent path.
and it's make believe.
I know she's brash, but I was surprised the sand snakes allowed her to be so brash. It's not like she can fight like they can. And how much Tyrell army is even left?
I think it comes down to Cersei and Daenerys and Tyrion kills Cersei.
So who is Daenerys third husband? Are there odds?
Jon Snow?
Littlefinger?
Jamie Lannister?
Aegon/Young Griff?
Daario?
Tyrion?
Other?
Asha/Yara?
I'd be pretty shocked if Jaime gets a "happily ever after". To me this is setting up for him to betray his sister. After all, she pretty much did what he killed Aerys for threatening to do.
Shadow posted them all, and claimed they were "his spoilers" based on what he thinks will happen. He should be banned from these threads/BBI.
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Makes sense. And she would definitely be "blonde enough" for him...
I'd be pretty shocked if Jaime gets a "happily ever after". To me this is setting up for him to betray his sister. After all, she pretty much did what he killed Aerys for threatening to do.
I think Jamie would normally forgive Cersei for this, as many of the intended targets were their direct enemies but the Tommen thing really makes it unforgivable.
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Makes sense. And she would definitely be "blonde enough" for him...
I'd be pretty shocked if Jaime gets a "happily ever after". To me this is setting up for him to betray his sister. After all, she pretty much did what he killed Aerys for threatening to do.
I agree that Jaime cross his sister. Not sure there is a happily every after for anyone at this point. If you think their will be, you haven't been paying attention. Everyone is damaged goods.
Brett. But he's really the only one.
almost all the strongest characters in the book are women:
Daenerys
Cersei
Arya
Sand Snakes
Queen of thorns
Asha/Yara
Brienne
Melisandre
Catelyn/LSH
Meera
even Sansa is showing some cunning
Gilly has her moments standing up Lord Tarwell
Margaery
Ygritte
the males you have some sure, like Jon Snow, Littlefinger or Jamie or Tyrion, but they're all more flawed or weaker than the females.
I can conceivably see a scenario with the entire realm is lead by women. Until the white walkers and their wights come to get everyone.
almost all the strongest characters in the book are women:
Daenerys
Cersei
Arya
Sand Snakes
Queen of thorns
Asha/Yara
Brienne
Melisandre
Catelyn/LSH
Meera
even Sansa is showing some cunning
Gilly has her moments standing up Lord Tarwell
Margaery
Ygritte
the males you have some sure, like Jon Snow, Littlefinger or Jamie or Tyrion, but they're all more flawed or weaker than the females.
I can conceivably see a scenario with the entire realm is lead by women. Until the white walkers and their wights come to get everyone.
Aren't you forgetting someone?
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(and now the show writers) are trying to send a message that women shouldn't be f-ed with.
almost all the strongest characters in the book are women:
Daenerys
Cersei
Arya
Sand Snakes
Queen of thorns
Asha/Yara
Brienne
Melisandre
Catelyn/LSH
Meera
even Sansa is showing some cunning
Gilly has her moments standing up Lord Tarwell
Margaery
Ygritte
the males you have some sure, like Jon Snow, Littlefinger or Jamie or Tyrion, but they're all more flawed or weaker than the females.
I can conceivably see a scenario with the entire realm is lead by women. Until the white walkers and their wights come to get everyone.
Aren't you forgetting someone?
Absolutely, lady mormont. i'm probably forgetting someone else too.
Someone with a much prettier face.
Long live Lady Mormont for real.
Another option is to keep Jaime around to wield Widow's Wail in the war to come. (Can't waste a Valyrian steel blade, and the relatively light weight might help him fight with his weaker hand.) I think their are better candidates: Tyrion is the obvious one, or possibly Pod - reuniting the two halves of Ice as Pod and Brienne fight shoulder to shoulder.
I'm all in on Team Love.
Another option is to keep Jaime around to wield Widow's Wail in the war to come. (Can't waste a Valyrian steel blade, and the relatively light weight might help him fight with his weaker hand.) I think their are better candidates: Tyrion is the obvious one, or possibly Pod - reuniting the two halves of Ice as Pod and Brienne fight shoulder to shoulder.
I think Jamie will end up dying a heroic death in the war to come. Maybe even saving Bran to come full circle. They took a long time to get to his turn from Cersei, but now that he's there, they can push his redemption much further...
I have come to accept that he'll never finish the books..
According to Littlefinger's firsthand account, Rhaegar loved Lyanna, even embarrassed his wife in a public setting while honoring Lyanna after a tournament. Depending on who's account you believe, Rhaegar either was obsessed with her to the point of kidnapping her, or they had a secret love affair.
Easy way out? She is completely screwed. Once Tommen turned on her, she had few options, and they were all bad. She chose the path of pure evil that lets her go out on top, but she knows the last piece of the prophesy is about to be fulfilled.
They became dr frankenmountain's little birds when he left
Sure, but he was looking at her like "WTF".
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Or love?
According to Littlefinger's firsthand account, Rhaegar loved Lyanna, even embarrassed his wife in a public setting while honoring Lyanna after a tournament. Depending on who's account you believe, Rhaegar either was obsessed with her to the point of kidnapping her, or they had a secret love affair.
Ser Barristan the Bold would not have spoken in such glowing terms about Rhaegar if he was a rapist and a kidnapper.
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best part of the episode IMO.... It was executed well on screen, I just seems like the easy way out for both the writers and Cersei.
Easy way out? She is completely screwed. Once Tommen turned on her, she had few options, and they were all bad. She chose the path of pure evil that lets her go out on top, but she knows the last piece of the prophesy is about to be fulfilled.
She was always screwed, so I wasn't surprised at all by what she did. I'm rooting for the prophesy to be debunked and that somehow she survives. I'm 99% sure this won't happen, but I'd really love a curveball before the show is over.
If it were rape, Ned would hate Rhaegar more than Robert does. Yet in the books, Ned visited a brothel to do some detective work, he thought Rhaegar would not likely be the type of guy who would visit brothels. Ned thinking the alleged rapist of his sister to have honor? No. Jon is a child of love.
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In comment 13010618 ron mexico said:
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Or love?
According to Littlefinger's firsthand account, Rhaegar loved Lyanna, even embarrassed his wife in a public setting while honoring Lyanna after a tournament. Depending on who's account you believe, Rhaegar either was obsessed with her to the point of kidnapping her, or they had a secret love affair.
Ser Barristan the Bold would not have spoken in such glowing terms about Rhaegar if he was a rapist and a kidnapper.
True. And everything about Rhaegar suggests he was popular and respected among the people and the nobles. Robert believed Lyanna was taken from him against her will, but he was madly in love with Lyanna, even to the point of self-destructive behavior, so he might just be framing things his way. Of course he thinks he and Lyanna were meant to be together. Maybe Lyanna just loved someone else, who happened to be married. It would be a pretty classic love story.
Shame! Shame!
Cersei enjoyed that so damn much
As for Rhaegar/Lyanna, all the big signs and reveals suggest that this was love. Rape/kidnapping was made up to protect the bastard.
There is likely much more to the Rhaegar/Lyanna union than obsession, love or rape. Baelish only scratched the surface of that back-story when he told Sansa about the Tourney at Harrenhal. We might have to wait for either a prequel movie or the seventh book to get the details. The TV show doesn't need that stuff, not that the showrunners have established R+L=J.
BTW, I'm not sure legitimacy really counts for much at this point. By what order of succession is Cersei's claim to the throne legitimate? She was queen mother, but the royal line is Baratheon, not Lannister.
Closest I've seen is:
His Targaryen name was never audible.
Varys knows. People underestimate Littlefinger, but man Varys is the puppet master.