ha! Maybe Klinsmann does what he should have done vs. Argentina and doesn't trot out the experienced but ineffectual guys whom he subbed for
Bedoya, Jones, and Wood. Maybe we see some of Pulisic and even Nagbe.
But chances are he starts the same group as vs. Ecuador except that Yedlin will go back to outside right, maybe Johnson moves up to left mid with Besler moving to Johnson's spot. It would give me hope if I never see either Zusi or Wondo on the USMNT pitch any more.
I thought this was a pretty good piece, reflected much of the commentary here on BBI last week.
A thorough butt-kicking inflicted by Argentina was fairly represented by the scoreline and had the Americans been at full-strength rather than deprived of starters Alejandro Bedoya, Jermaine Jones and Bobby Wood the margin would have been narrower. The best teams in the world are still much better than the USA as has been the case for many decades, but the insertion of Graham Zusi, Kyle Beckerman and Chris Wondolowskiaccentuated the differences.
There doesn’t seem to be much consensus about what can be done to ramp up the national team, other than magically transform MLS into one of the world’s greatest leagues and turn every domestic elite player into a potential World Cup starter. But what can be done is to look at the semifinal and determine what hidden truths, if any, can be comprehended.
LINEUP CHOICES. Not for the first time in his tenure did Klinsmann take on a tough task and make it worse through questionable decisions.
Why Klinsmann excluded an experienced, reliable defender in Matt Besler -- who manned the left-back slot in the quarterfinal against Ecuador -- with a shorthanded squad taking on the best player in the world is difficult to fathom.
need a lot more time against the highest end competition in order to get to that next level. They aren't getting it in CONCACAF or MLS. As much as youth development gets all the attention, stretching ourselves at the very top is also necessary to give the US a higher ceiling. We aren't as bad as we looked against ARG the other night, but we have to honestly face the work still to be done to get into a top 10 peer group.
Doubt the Colombians play their best 11 or that they are going to be enthused about the game, hope the US plays its best 11 and that they truly understand the importance of this game. Also hoping that we see some of the younger players against this level of competition. Only way for them to develop is games against quality opponents.
Quote:
He's actually only 20. Definitely not writing him off at all.
Wow only 20. Thanks Jon. I thought he would have been a stalwart by now.
I still think the future is getting brighter - if JK would cut loose with the old fogeys.
By how wide open the game is and the way the US team is holding its own. Would have expected more of a defensive approach with two of the back four missing.
I do not expect perfection from any of them-- even the best lose their mark particularly when the execution is so precise. Orozco had to vacate his spot to cover the outside attack
is a wonderful passer in tight situations. He's our best out and out striker, but he has 3 assists this tournament and probably should have more if he wasn't playing with Zardes and Bedoya.
The US is going for it. They've still got a lot of work to do developmentally when it comes to building attacks and finishing outside of Dempsey
Agree with this completely. I believe that was one of the better halves the team has played, particularly considering who is missing. Though Brooks had a poor game against Argentina, his presence in the middle of the back line changes attacks. Not a knock on either Besler or Cameron who both played well but you simply cannot replace Brooks size.
Seems like everyone wants to move on from Dempsey Â
Question: with the style Klinsmann has had the team playing, would a healthy Aron Johannsson have made any difference, and if he can ever overcome the injury bug, is he of value to this squad?
RE: Have really enjoyed the US effort, especially in the second half Â
Question: with the style Klinsmann has had the team playing, would a healthy Aron Johannsson have made any difference, and if he can ever overcome the injury bug, is he of value to this squad?
I dont think he would have played, other than in place of Wondo for the Argentina game.
These S. American teams get away with murderous tackles and get away with far too much diving. Ecuador and now Colombia play that same cheap brand of soccer.
Honestly hurts American perception of the game the way the refs cater to this kind of play. I could never play at this level. I'd want up decking one of these fools.
by soccer player standards, that was a terrible flop.
It's really aggravating even for someone like me who played a couple years of D1. But the flopping is utterly disgusting and definitely controllable by the ref. Start pulling out cards on these guys if they pull this shit and watch it stop. Takes too long for the stretcher to get out? Red card for the coach. Pull something like what that Columbian flopper did? Red card. If you are legit hurt, the player must be removed from the field immediately.
You wonder why this game is such a tough sell on Americans. Watching players collapse in a heap writhing in agony only to get up ten seconds later is fucking awful.
At the game.... These refs were absolutely fucking horrific. And the Colombian team is almost unbearable to watch. Every time they were touched it was like a sniper got them. Fucking assholes.... And fuck that ref.
The young US players like Zardes and Wood still must learn to finish. Those skills will not develop on the bench though. Need to keep playing them in international contests. Positive showing by the USMNT tonight. I hope that it is reported that way rather than used as another topic to debate the future of the coach or players. We all have our views but this game was truly a positive step. Let's hope that it continues.
not upset. This was a glorified friendly, so I was worried more about who created more chances.
I'd say we got the better of play and were hard done not to at least tie. Nagbe and Pulisic need to start in each game moving forward. Orozco's last actions on this team need to be that bitch slap. Some teach Bobby Wood how to shoot.
Fucking guy head butted him!!!!!! Oroszcco shoved him in the chest! That was totally incited by the Colombian player RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REF. I would still be hitting the guy if he did that to me. Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Fuck the South American teams. Dirty fucks. Argentina is the lone exception. But seriously, the craven showings by the refs hurt the US big time in this game and the Ecuador game.
and faking that take away from a good game. FIFA needs to put an end to it. To much falling when challenged. Hey in a tough spot, just flop as soon as somebody brushes you get a foul called.
Too bad US just did not have their shooting shoes on tonight. Many, many chances in the box and looking to pass instead of taking a shot.
They absolutely belong on the field with Colombia.
About the rough S American play. All year round all I read is the pussification of American football and basketball. The glorious days of the Riley Knicks and when DBs could play the game as it should he done.
Quote:Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Jones never touched the Ecuadorian player, his hand was slapped away. Orozco not only shoved his face, he shoved him down.
You cannot do that shit in front of the ref - 5 feet away.
About the rough S American play. All year round all I read is the pussification of American football and basketball. The glorious days of the Riley Knicks and when DBs could play the game as it should he done.
You don't? Well then you aren't bright enough to comprehend the point and that's understandable. As far as the comment, then I repeat my last insult D-Bag.
Ugh. Kicking out legs. Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.
And another typical shitshow refereeing job. I actually don't mind Orozco getting the red card - that ref wasn't going to give it to the Colombia guy until he had to chuck Orozco.
In the end, the U.S. still doesn't have the technical ability to beat some of these teams. No match-winners out there except Clint, and he's past his prime.
Quote:Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Jones never touched the Ecuadorian player, his hand was slapped away. Orozco not only shoved his face, he shoved him down.
You cannot do that shit in front of the ref - 5 feet away.
Wrong.
Jones absolutely did a mini punch in the face and connected.
Oroszcco shoved the guy, albeit forcefully, in the chest/shoulders.
Not a knowledgable soccer fan by any measure but I watch the usmnt Â
and it's just amazing how stubborn JK must be to not implement most of the commonly noted changes that are suggested by the knowledgeable fans in these threads (and elsewhere). Orozco is hot garbage, no business on that roster let alone in that game. In 20 minutes Pulisic and Nagbe made it clear they're 2 of the most talented players on the roster. I respect Jones' defensive abilities and activeness, but he just never seems to make the right decision that opens up the offense. I think that was one of the better games I've seen from Bedoya (and overall tournaments). This was probably our best game and it was only a 3rd place so it didn't mean all that much, but it really does seem like they need to dump Klinnsman and start actually building for the future with a cohesive plan vs. his mismatched lineups. Hopefully he takes that other job.
Also totally agree with everyone that the whining, flopping, and terrible officiating throughout this tournament was brutal to watch. How they missed the headbutt after they made such a big deal about Jones' "contact to the head" amazes me.
And another typical shitshow refereeing job. I actually don't mind Orozco getting the red card - that ref wasn't going to give it to the Colombia guy until he had to chuck Orozco.
In the end, the U.S. still doesn't have the technical ability to beat some of these teams. No match-winners out there except Clint, and he's past his prime.
I'm telling you man, Nagbe is really freaking good. Next time he plays, watch how good he is in possession and how incisive his passes are.
Take off in the US if FIFA did something about the refs allowing these children to cry on the pitch. But then Ronaldo would get red carded every other match.
Jon - the precision Nagbe and Pulisic showed in 20 minutes Â
is exactly what guys like Zardes, Jones, Beckerman, Yedlin et al are missing and will simply never have. The jets Nagbe turned on at the very end of the game were surprising also. Totally get that some of those guys are capable to fill other roles, but need to get the guys with the talent the experience against top teams. Inexcusable roster management by JK.
Quote:Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Jones never touched the Ecuadorian player, his hand was slapped away. Orozco not only shoved his face, he shoved him down.
You cannot do that shit in front of the ref - 5 feet away.
Wrong.
Jones absolutely did a mini punch in the face and connected.
Oroszcco shoved the guy, albeit forcefully, in the chest/shoulders.
See what you want...
RE: Jon - the precision Nagbe and Pulisic showed in 20 minutes Â
is exactly what guys like Zardes, Jones, Beckerman, Yedlin et al are missing and will simply never have. The jets Nagbe turned on at the very end of the game were surprising also. Totally get that some of those guys are capable to fill other roles, but need to get the guys with the talent the experience against top teams. Inexcusable roster management by JK.
Zardes was terrible tonight no doubt. But he has nice control and pace. He's gotta make better decisions out there though.
Teflon is good on D and has great speed for overlaps, so I like him staying out there.
And another typical shitshow refereeing job. I actually don't mind Orozco getting the red card - that ref wasn't going to give it to the Colombia guy until he had to chuck Orozco.
In the end, the U.S. still doesn't have the technical ability to beat some of these teams. No match-winners out there except Clint, and he's past his prime.
I'm telling you man, Nagbe is really freaking good. Next time he plays, watch how good he is in possession and how incisive his passes are.
No idea why he isn't playing more.
Maybe so, but until he gets regular run, this is what we are dealing with. World Cup qualification starts shortly, they have to begin accelerating the transition to these guys.
I actually thought Zardes had a pretty good night Â
and I totally get that not every player is going to be perfect, so I wasn't knocking all of those guys, just saying tonight more than ever it looked obvious that there are guys who need to be getting more time.
Nagbe did slide a through pass between two Colombianos but a touch too heavy...he needs playing time with the guys on the field in matches that matter; Pulisic has nice touches and good feel to create, he needs time on the pitch
Orozco left way too much space on his side and crumpled shape of the back and his antics at the end were just silly stupid--why?
Zardes' game in the middle third is ok, some pace, ability to turn and create a little, but just a zero in and around the area, and as far as I recall hasn't done much with ball in the air; with his length, he should
Yedlin imo continues to improve, he's growing on me; Cameron, pretty strong game
Contrary to above, I thought Jones had another nice game; he's not part of the future, but he's been a + player, he counters well and moves forward aggressively, something USMNT needs much more of, and he checks back, clogs up the opponent in the defensive third (and, yes, he made contact, another dopey move)
Just nothing from Bradley tonight, again (at least no big giveaways), before as well as after he was clipped
Quote:Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Jones never touched the Ecuadorian player, his hand was slapped away. Orozco not only shoved his face, he shoved him down.
You cannot do that shit in front of the ref - 5 feet away.
Wrong.
Jones absolutely did a mini punch in the face and connected.
Oroszcco shoved the guy, albeit forcefully, in the chest/shoulders.
You all remember Dirk from the Netherlands and Liverpool. Dirk wasn't some great scorer, but he tracked back, caused turnovers in the offensive area, and did all the little things to help Van Persie, Robben, etc. do their thing. And for that, he would get 10+ goals just from scraps. That's Zardes in he's in a 4-3-3.
And I was wrong, Oroszcco made contact with the face.....AFTER being head butted Should have been negated by head butt - ( New Window )
Well no shit. That's why everyone is pissed at him, he was fouled and then was head butted and he retaliated....
I'm not. He got red carded in what....the 88th minute?! And in that situation, unless he threw a closed fist punch, he should've been allowed to react. Somebody headbutts you under the eye, and people tend to flip out. Plus it wasn't called immediately. Ref coulda used discretion there. He cost the US nothing at that point in the game. I would have gathered he knocked that dirty bitch's teeth out.
RE: RE: I don't understand the constant complaints Â
About the rough S American play. All year round all I read is the pussification of American football and basketball. The glorious days of the Riley Knicks and when DBs could play the game as it should he done.
You don't? Well then you aren't bright enough to comprehend the point and that's understandable. As far as the comment, then I repeat my last insult D-Bag.
Ugh. Kicking out legs. Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.
D-bag? Ha, ok, carry on like the drama queens you are ragging on.
Nagbe did slide a through pass between two Colombianos but a touch too heavy...he needs playing time with the guys on the field in matches that matter; Pulisic has nice touches and good feel to create, he needs time on the pitch
Orozco left way too much space on his side and crumpled shape of the back and his antics at the end were just silly stupid--why?
Zardes' game in the middle third is ok, some pace, ability to turn and create a little, but just a zero in and around the area, and as far as I recall hasn't done much with ball in the air; with his length, he should
Yedlin imo continues to improve, he's growing on me; Cameron, pretty strong game
Contrary to above, I thought Jones had another nice game; he's not part of the future, but he's been a + player, he counters well and moves forward aggressively, something USMNT needs much more of, and he checks back, clogs up the opponent in the defensive third (and, yes, he made contact, another dopey move)
Just nothing from Bradley tonight, again (at least no big giveaways), before as well as after he was clipped
Agreed with most of what you said. The young guys (Nagbe and Pulisic) should see more time going forward.
Zardes has some redeeming qualities but he needs to improve big time to factor in as a starter going forward. His touch was actually decent tonight but then he had a few chances in the box where he reacted way to slowly.
Agewise Bradley should still be in his prime but I not sure if he can come back. It's been a few years since he's been at his best. Although today it was clear his earlier injury affected him.
I would think about moving Cameron up to defensive mid Â
putting Besler in Cameron's spot and moving Bradley into a box to box role. They tried to give Bradley the responsibilities of a Pirlo and he fell woefully short
Thought US team played fairly well in second half but Â
way too many touches & passes in and around the box that were ineffective. Spacing was never really good and both shot selection and number of shots suffered. Nice one by Dempsey though that deserved a better result.
chop (I think this was you) :
[quote]Ugh.... Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.[quote]
But that middle sentence describes just about exactly what Germaine Jones did after elbowing the opponent in the air as both were trying to head the ball. He fell to the ground holding his head and writhing, too cute by half in the cover-up. And I agree with you: its UGH whoever engages in the nonsense, and it does need to be cleaned up.
It will take FIFA and the various football associations to act in concert, and unless and until they do, we'll have to continue to bear witness.
Orozco was head-butted, and he retaliated, and the referee belatedly got it right, issuing the caution for the original foul (I think) and the second: I don't believe he gave a straight red for the head butt, but he should have; had he done it straight away and been in their faces, maybe, maybe, Orozco restrains himself. But this is just so much futile prattle.
Aside from the above, I don't think the refs did such a bad job, maybe I'm biased. On the head butt of Orozco (and I don't remember where he was positioned), maybe he didn't see it, maybe he got advice from the AR in that half, nearly a whole width of the field away. There is a tendency among soccer fans to underestimate the difficulty of getting myriad, hundreds and hundreds of calls "right", even when they involve judgment in 50/50s and instant application of the Laws and of Interpretations (ATRs).
On the Orozco incident, they got it wrong and late, and finally rectified the mistake--and by the way, Orozco's push/slap cannot be negated by the prior head butt, does not work that way--but it cannot be overstated how difficult it is to catch everything, or at least everything that matters--with moving bodies between the ref's eyes and the contact (often deliberately so, in order to shield), the foul, the unsporting behavior. Some refs are just plain bad, incompetent, not up to the bigness of the match, no doubt, and the center missed some calls in the middle third when our guys were pulled down and theirs too, but it was not a terrible job, imo.
chop (I think this was you) :
[quote]Ugh.... Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.[quote]
But that middle sentence describes just about exactly what Germaine Jones did after elbowing the opponent in the air as both were trying to head the ball. He fell to the ground holding his head and writhing, too cute by half in the cover-up. And I agree with you: its UGH whoever engages in the nonsense, and it does need to be cleaned up.
It will take FIFA and the various football associations to act in concert, and unless and until they do, we'll have to continue to bear witness.
Orozco was head-butted, and he retaliated, and the referee belatedly got it right, issuing the caution for the original foul (I think) and the second: I don't believe he gave a straight red for the head butt, but he should have; had he done it straight away and been in their faces, maybe, maybe, Orozco restrains himself. But this is just so much futile prattle.
Aside from the above, I don't think the refs did such a bad job, maybe I'm biased. On the head butt of Orozco (and I don't remember where he was positioned), maybe he didn't see it, maybe he got advice from the AR in that half, nearly a whole width of the field away. There is a tendency among soccer fans to underestimate the difficulty of getting myriad, hundreds and hundreds of calls "right", even when they involve judgment in 50/50s and instant application of the Laws and of Interpretations (ATRs).
On the Orozco incident, they got it wrong and late, and finally rectified the mistake--and by the way, Orozco's push/slap cannot be negated by the prior head butt, does not work that way--but it cannot be overstated how difficult it is to catch everything, or at least everything that matters--with moving bodies between the ref's eyes and the contact (often deliberately so, in order to shield), the foul, the unsporting behavior. Some refs are just plain bad, incompetent, not up to the bigness of the match, no doubt, and the center missed some calls in the middle third when our guys were pulled down and theirs too, but it was not a terrible job, imo.
On point exactly. I have been a soccer referee for years and cannot overstate how difficult it is for the center official to see everything, particularly away from play. Recall that for the most part you have three officials covering an area that is larger than a football field. Now, in this tournament when playing teams from South America who have a reputation for embellishment and taking late shots or hard fouls, it is important for players on the USMNT to not get drawn into retaliation measures.
Nothing will change until the officials actually start to card players who are embellishing or who take the extra cheap shot. Problem is that in most instances the official does not want to take the game away from the players by making a call that leaves a team shorthanded. When they do, all hell breaks loose with fans screaming about similar plays that were not carded. It is a lose-lose situation.
chop (I think this was you) :
[quote]Ugh.... Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.[quote]
But that middle sentence describes just about exactly what Germaine Jones did after elbowing the opponent in the air as both were trying to head the ball. He fell to the ground holding his head and writhing, too cute by half in the cover-up. And I agree with you: its UGH whoever engages in the nonsense, and it does need to be cleaned up.
It will take FIFA and the various football associations to act in concert, and unless and until they do, we'll have to continue to bear witness.
Orozco was head-butted, and he retaliated, and the referee belatedly got it right, issuing the caution for the original foul (I think) and the second: I don't believe he gave a straight red for the head butt, but he should have; had he done it straight away and been in their faces, maybe, maybe, Orozco restrains himself. But this is just so much futile prattle.
Aside from the above, I don't think the refs did such a bad job, maybe I'm biased. On the head butt of Orozco (and I don't remember where he was positioned), maybe he didn't see it, maybe he got advice from the AR in that half, nearly a whole width of the field away. There is a tendency among soccer fans to underestimate the difficulty of getting myriad, hundreds and hundreds of calls "right", even when they involve judgment in 50/50s and instant application of the Laws and of Interpretations (ATRs).
On the Orozco incident, they got it wrong and late, and finally rectified the mistake--and by the way, Orozco's push/slap cannot be negated by the prior head butt, does not work that way--but it cannot be overstated how difficult it is to catch everything, or at least everything that matters--with moving bodies between the ref's eyes and the contact (often deliberately so, in order to shield), the foul, the unsporting behavior. Some refs are just plain bad, incompetent, not up to the bigness of the match, no doubt, and the center missed some calls in the middle third when our guys were pulled down and theirs too, but it was not a terrible job, imo.
On point exactly. I have been a soccer referee for years and cannot overstate how difficult it is for the center official to see everything, particularly away from play. Recall that for the most part you have three officials covering an area that is larger than a football field. Now, in this tournament when playing teams from South America who have a reputation for embellishment and taking late shots or hard fouls, it is important for players on the USMNT to not get drawn into retaliation measures.
Nothing will change until the officials actually start to card players who are embellishing or who take the extra cheap shot. Problem is that in most instances the official does not want to take the game away from the players by making a call that leaves a team shorthanded. When they do, all hell breaks loose with fans screaming about similar plays that were not carded. It is a lose-lose situation.
Jeffrey, while I understand, in this case, he was about 6 feet away from the incident.
As far as the Jones elbow, agreed. That was a skank play. I'm not defending that idiot either.
While I don't expect you to get every play right, far stricter punishments for diving as well as writhing (like if you go to ground and don't get right back up, you MUST get off the field immediately and stay off for 5 mins at least), a lot of this clock killing nonsense would be no more.
and back at you, must be why we so often agree--a somewhat exclusive and much reviled club! lol
With a match I'm interested in watching--a lot of them in late June--I find it's really two stages, or two rings, if you will: one opponent vs. the other in the main ring, but a very important side ring is how the players are reacting to the ref crew calls and non-calls, and in that ring, often the two opponents are on the same side, and woe to the ref who is not in touch with that dynamic.
And as you know, it's not difficult to lose touch with the meta game if one is not tuned in to multiple frequencies at once, hidden contact, spoken words, and as you say, action off the ball. And, if your ARs are inexperienced or shy about making calls and communicating, there can be trouble in Dodge City
While I don't expect you to get every play right, far stricter punishments for diving as well as writhing (like if you go to ground and don't get right back up, you MUST get off the field immediately and stay off for 5 mins at least), a lot of this clock killing nonsense would be no more.
As I said above, I agree, without reservation. Further, the Laws of the Game contain strictures in Law 12 regarding "simulation" (what is referred to in this thread as embellishment, diving, flopping, writhing, lol) as one of the forms of unsporting behavior, and myriad interpretations in ATRs.
But unless FIFA and the national associations get on the same page on this, that is to say not permitting widespread and pervasive flouting of the Law, you are not going to have the referees out front and attempting to enforce this by themselves without backing from FIFA, associations national and regional, and Tournament organizers (UEFA, CONCACAF, etc.).
Football (soccer) is so wildly popular and lucrative (just ask all the FIFA officers and former officers under indictment), it may be that there is some broadband institutional sense of don't fix what's not broken. And in this context it does offend many fans, but as long as all parties are taking advantage of it, there won't be too hard a push to change. To make a crude analogy, there will have to be some travesty, some divine intervention, some really bad stink or formal public outcry, as there was in the NFL re. headhunting and protecting the QBs, before it's likely to change.
imo
Link - ( New Window )
Bedoya, Jones, and Wood. Maybe we see some of Pulisic and even Nagbe.
But chances are he starts the same group as vs. Ecuador except that Yedlin will go back to outside right, maybe Johnson moves up to left mid with Besler moving to Johnson's spot. It would give me hope if I never see either Zusi or Wondo on the USMNT pitch any more.
I thought this was a pretty good piece, reflected much of the commentary here on BBI last week.
http://www.socceramerica.com/article/69321/if-the-song-remains-the-same-how-can-it-be-rewrit.html
There doesn’t seem to be much consensus about what can be done to ramp up the national team, other than magically transform MLS into one of the world’s greatest leagues and turn every domestic elite player into a potential World Cup starter. But what can be done is to look at the semifinal and determine what hidden truths, if any, can be comprehended.
LINEUP CHOICES. Not for the first time in his tenure did Klinsmann take on a tough task and make it worse through questionable decisions.
Why Klinsmann excluded an experienced, reliable defender in Matt Besler -- who manned the left-back slot in the quarterfinal against Ecuador -- with a shorthanded squad taking on the best player in the world is difficult to fathom.
Lots of other pithy stuff
Hopefully Nagbe and Pulisic do, but knowing Klinsmann, I doubt it.
Hopefully Nagbe and Pulisic do, but knowing Klinsmann, I doubt it.
Real Madrid will throw a conniption fit if James plays in a third place game
Nothing good. I believe he turned down a transfer to Hannover, and didn't play all that well for the second team.
Quote:
kid Green that scored the goal against Belgium after they went down 2-0 in OT in the WC?
Nothing good. I believe he turned down a transfer to Hannover, and didn't play all that well for the second team.
He's still only 23... Too bad, looked like a great find for USMNT.
Quote:
In comment 13009094 section125 said:
Quote:
kid Green that scored the goal against Belgium after they went down 2-0 in OT in the WC?
Nothing good. I believe he turned down a transfer to Hannover, and didn't play all that well for the second team.
He's still only 23... Too bad, looked like a great find for USMNT.
He's actually only 20. Definitely not writing him off at all.
Quote:
He's actually only 20. Definitely not writing him off at all.
Wow only 20. Thanks Jon. I thought he would have been a stalwart by now.
I still think the future is getting brighter - if JK would cut loose with the old fogeys.
What a fucking joke.
Also, get Jack Harrison on the USMNT immediately. What a beast.
What a fucking joke.
Also, get Jack Harrison on the USMNT immediately. What a beast.
Sorry, not quite accurate. They're playing Besler for Brooks and Orozco for Johnson.
Both injured.
Is this Stu Holden doing color? He's doing a great job.
Even so they'd prefer that James sit so there is no risk on getting at least a decent part of their transfer fee back
GREAT save by Howard!
Yes, wide open.
What a difference from that stiff Wondolowski. That dude shouldn't even be on the bench. He should be cleaning porta potties.
What a difference from that stiff Wondolowski. That dude shouldn't even be on the bench. He should be cleaning porta potties.
Yup. He should have moved past Jozy as our 1st choice striker IMO.
Wood + Morris is the future strike partnership.
Besler fouls James who almost kicks him back in the nether regions
Better chances. One stupid defensive lapse.
Zardes has been infinitely better on the 1st touch tonight.
Agree with this completely. I believe that was one of the better halves the team has played, particularly considering who is missing. Though Brooks had a poor game against Argentina, his presence in the middle of the back line changes attacks. Not a knock on either Besler or Cameron who both played well but you simply cannot replace Brooks size.
Great save.
Messi would have scored.
Ospina plays a lot better for Colombia than he does for Arsenal. That goes in when Ospina is screwing up at club level
I caught the "not today buddy" as well on Univision. So freaking great.
I dont think he would have played, other than in place of Wondo for the Argentina game.
Honestly hurts American perception of the game the way the refs cater to this kind of play. I could never play at this level. I'd want up decking one of these fools.
You hold the ball for 10 seconds and then decide that playing a slow ball to Orozco is your best move?
FFS.
It's really aggravating even for someone like me who played a couple years of D1. But the flopping is utterly disgusting and definitely controllable by the ref. Start pulling out cards on these guys if they pull this shit and watch it stop. Takes too long for the stretcher to get out? Red card for the coach. Pull something like what that Columbian flopper did? Red card. If you are legit hurt, the player must be removed from the field immediately.
You wonder why this game is such a tough sell on Americans. Watching players collapse in a heap writhing in agony only to get up ten seconds later is fucking awful.
There was a lot of futzing around in the box.
Can’t fault the effort.
I'd say we got the better of play and were hard done not to at least tie. Nagbe and Pulisic need to start in each game moving forward. Orozco's last actions on this team need to be that bitch slap. Some teach Bobby Wood how to shoot.
There was a lot of futzing around in the box.
Can’t fault the effort.
Fucking guy head butted him!!!!!! Oroszcco shoved him in the chest! That was totally incited by the Colombian player RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE REF. I would still be hitting the guy if he did that to me. Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Fuck the South American teams. Dirty fucks. Argentina is the lone exception. But seriously, the craven showings by the refs hurt the US big time in this game and the Ecuador game.
Too bad US just did not have their shooting shoes on tonight. Many, many chances in the box and looking to pass instead of taking a shot.
They absolutely belong on the field with Colombia.
When they face technically sound teams, like the powers in Europe and their flopping and diving isn't rewarded, they are often beaten soundly.
Quote:Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Jones never touched the Ecuadorian player, his hand was slapped away. Orozco not only shoved his face, he shoved him down.
You cannot do that shit in front of the ref - 5 feet away.
You don't? Well then you aren't bright enough to comprehend the point and that's understandable. As far as the comment, then I repeat my last insult D-Bag.
Ugh. Kicking out legs. Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.
In the end, the U.S. still doesn't have the technical ability to beat some of these teams. No match-winners out there except Clint, and he's past his prime.
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In comment 13009333 AcidTest said:
Quote:Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Jones never touched the Ecuadorian player, his hand was slapped away. Orozco not only shoved his face, he shoved him down.
You cannot do that shit in front of the ref - 5 feet away.
Wrong.
Jones absolutely did a mini punch in the face and connected.
Oroszcco shoved the guy, albeit forcefully, in the chest/shoulders.
Also totally agree with everyone that the whining, flopping, and terrible officiating throughout this tournament was brutal to watch. How they missed the headbutt after they made such a big deal about Jones' "contact to the head" amazes me.
In the end, the U.S. still doesn't have the technical ability to beat some of these teams. No match-winners out there except Clint, and he's past his prime.
I'm telling you man, Nagbe is really freaking good. Next time he plays, watch how good he is in possession and how incisive his passes are.
No idea why he isn't playing more.
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In comment 13009350 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
In comment 13009333 AcidTest said:
Quote:Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Jones never touched the Ecuadorian player, his hand was slapped away. Orozco not only shoved his face, he shoved him down.
You cannot do that shit in front of the ref - 5 feet away.
Wrong.
Jones absolutely did a mini punch in the face and connected.
Oroszcco shoved the guy, albeit forcefully, in the chest/shoulders.
See what you want...
Zardes was terrible tonight no doubt. But he has nice control and pace. He's gotta make better decisions out there though.
Teflon is good on D and has great speed for overlaps, so I like him staying out there.
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And another typical shitshow refereeing job. I actually don't mind Orozco getting the red card - that ref wasn't going to give it to the Colombia guy until he had to chuck Orozco.
In the end, the U.S. still doesn't have the technical ability to beat some of these teams. No match-winners out there except Clint, and he's past his prime.
I'm telling you man, Nagbe is really freaking good. Next time he plays, watch how good he is in possession and how incisive his passes are.
No idea why he isn't playing more.
Maybe so, but until he gets regular run, this is what we are dealing with. World Cup qualification starts shortly, they have to begin accelerating the transition to these guys.
Orozco left way too much space on his side and crumpled shape of the back and his antics at the end were just silly stupid--why?
Zardes' game in the middle third is ok, some pace, ability to turn and create a little, but just a zero in and around the area, and as far as I recall hasn't done much with ball in the air; with his length, he should
Yedlin imo continues to improve, he's growing on me; Cameron, pretty strong game
Contrary to above, I thought Jones had another nice game; he's not part of the future, but he's been a + player, he counters well and moves forward aggressively, something USMNT needs much more of, and he checks back, clogs up the opponent in the defensive third (and, yes, he made contact, another dopey move)
Just nothing from Bradley tonight, again (at least no big giveaways), before as well as after he was clipped
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In comment 13009360 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13009350 chopperhatch said:
Quote:
In comment 13009333 AcidTest said:
Quote:Oroszcco did not do what Jones did in the Ecuador game.
Jones never touched the Ecuadorian player, his hand was slapped away. Orozco not only shoved his face, he shoved him down.
You cannot do that shit in front of the ref - 5 feet away.
Wrong.
Jones absolutely did a mini punch in the face and connected.
Oroszcco shoved the guy, albeit forcefully, in the chest/shoulders.
See what you want...
Lol, ok. Or the truth?
And I was wrong, Oroszcco made contact with the face.....AFTER being head butted
Should have been negated by head butt - ( New Window )
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And I was wrong, Oroszcco made contact with the face.....AFTER being head butted Should have been negated by head butt - ( New Window )
Well no shit. That's why everyone is pissed at him, he was fouled and then was head butted and he retaliated....
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In comment 13009382 section125 said:
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And I was wrong, Oroszcco made contact with the face.....AFTER being head butted Should have been negated by head butt - ( New Window )
Well no shit. That's why everyone is pissed at him, he was fouled and then was head butted and he retaliated....
I'm not. He got red carded in what....the 88th minute?! And in that situation, unless he threw a closed fist punch, he should've been allowed to react. Somebody headbutts you under the eye, and people tend to flip out. Plus it wasn't called immediately. Ref coulda used discretion there. He cost the US nothing at that point in the game. I would have gathered he knocked that dirty bitch's teeth out.
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About the rough S American play. All year round all I read is the pussification of American football and basketball. The glorious days of the Riley Knicks and when DBs could play the game as it should he done.
You don't? Well then you aren't bright enough to comprehend the point and that's understandable. As far as the comment, then I repeat my last insult D-Bag.
Ugh. Kicking out legs. Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.
D-bag? Ha, ok, carry on like the drama queens you are ragging on.
Orozco left way too much space on his side and crumpled shape of the back and his antics at the end were just silly stupid--why?
Zardes' game in the middle third is ok, some pace, ability to turn and create a little, but just a zero in and around the area, and as far as I recall hasn't done much with ball in the air; with his length, he should
Yedlin imo continues to improve, he's growing on me; Cameron, pretty strong game
Contrary to above, I thought Jones had another nice game; he's not part of the future, but he's been a + player, he counters well and moves forward aggressively, something USMNT needs much more of, and he checks back, clogs up the opponent in the defensive third (and, yes, he made contact, another dopey move)
Just nothing from Bradley tonight, again (at least no big giveaways), before as well as after he was clipped
Agreed with most of what you said. The young guys (Nagbe and Pulisic) should see more time going forward.
Zardes has some redeeming qualities but he needs to improve big time to factor in as a starter going forward. His touch was actually decent tonight but then he had a few chances in the box where he reacted way to slowly.
Agewise Bradley should still be in his prime but I not sure if he can come back. It's been a few years since he's been at his best. Although today it was clear his earlier injury affected him.
The number of flops was beyond ridiculous...
[quote]Ugh.... Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.[quote]
But that middle sentence describes just about exactly what Germaine Jones did after elbowing the opponent in the air as both were trying to head the ball. He fell to the ground holding his head and writhing, too cute by half in the cover-up. And I agree with you: its UGH whoever engages in the nonsense, and it does need to be cleaned up.
It will take FIFA and the various football associations to act in concert, and unless and until they do, we'll have to continue to bear witness.
Orozco was head-butted, and he retaliated, and the referee belatedly got it right, issuing the caution for the original foul (I think) and the second: I don't believe he gave a straight red for the head butt, but he should have; had he done it straight away and been in their faces, maybe, maybe, Orozco restrains himself. But this is just so much futile prattle.
Aside from the above, I don't think the refs did such a bad job, maybe I'm biased. On the head butt of Orozco (and I don't remember where he was positioned), maybe he didn't see it, maybe he got advice from the AR in that half, nearly a whole width of the field away. There is a tendency among soccer fans to underestimate the difficulty of getting myriad, hundreds and hundreds of calls "right", even when they involve judgment in 50/50s and instant application of the Laws and of Interpretations (ATRs).
On the Orozco incident, they got it wrong and late, and finally rectified the mistake--and by the way, Orozco's push/slap cannot be negated by the prior head butt, does not work that way--but it cannot be overstated how difficult it is to catch everything, or at least everything that matters--with moving bodies between the ref's eyes and the contact (often deliberately so, in order to shield), the foul, the unsporting behavior. Some refs are just plain bad, incompetent, not up to the bigness of the match, no doubt, and the center missed some calls in the middle third when our guys were pulled down and theirs too, but it was not a terrible job, imo.
[quote]Ugh.... Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.[quote]
But that middle sentence describes just about exactly what Germaine Jones did after elbowing the opponent in the air as both were trying to head the ball. He fell to the ground holding his head and writhing, too cute by half in the cover-up. And I agree with you: its UGH whoever engages in the nonsense, and it does need to be cleaned up.
It will take FIFA and the various football associations to act in concert, and unless and until they do, we'll have to continue to bear witness.
Orozco was head-butted, and he retaliated, and the referee belatedly got it right, issuing the caution for the original foul (I think) and the second: I don't believe he gave a straight red for the head butt, but he should have; had he done it straight away and been in their faces, maybe, maybe, Orozco restrains himself. But this is just so much futile prattle.
Aside from the above, I don't think the refs did such a bad job, maybe I'm biased. On the head butt of Orozco (and I don't remember where he was positioned), maybe he didn't see it, maybe he got advice from the AR in that half, nearly a whole width of the field away. There is a tendency among soccer fans to underestimate the difficulty of getting myriad, hundreds and hundreds of calls "right", even when they involve judgment in 50/50s and instant application of the Laws and of Interpretations (ATRs).
On the Orozco incident, they got it wrong and late, and finally rectified the mistake--and by the way, Orozco's push/slap cannot be negated by the prior head butt, does not work that way--but it cannot be overstated how difficult it is to catch everything, or at least everything that matters--with moving bodies between the ref's eyes and the contact (often deliberately so, in order to shield), the foul, the unsporting behavior. Some refs are just plain bad, incompetent, not up to the bigness of the match, no doubt, and the center missed some calls in the middle third when our guys were pulled down and theirs too, but it was not a terrible job, imo.
On point exactly. I have been a soccer referee for years and cannot overstate how difficult it is for the center official to see everything, particularly away from play. Recall that for the most part you have three officials covering an area that is larger than a football field. Now, in this tournament when playing teams from South America who have a reputation for embellishment and taking late shots or hard fouls, it is important for players on the USMNT to not get drawn into retaliation measures.
Nothing will change until the officials actually start to card players who are embellishing or who take the extra cheap shot. Problem is that in most instances the official does not want to take the game away from the players by making a call that leaves a team shorthanded. When they do, all hell breaks loose with fans screaming about similar plays that were not carded. It is a lose-lose situation.
Quote:
chop (I think this was you) :
[quote]Ugh.... Headbutting opponents in the face and then falling down covering your face kicking your feet against the turf like a battered wife when you get pushed in the chest. It's not ROUGH play, it's DIRTY play.[quote]
But that middle sentence describes just about exactly what Germaine Jones did after elbowing the opponent in the air as both were trying to head the ball. He fell to the ground holding his head and writhing, too cute by half in the cover-up. And I agree with you: its UGH whoever engages in the nonsense, and it does need to be cleaned up.
It will take FIFA and the various football associations to act in concert, and unless and until they do, we'll have to continue to bear witness.
Orozco was head-butted, and he retaliated, and the referee belatedly got it right, issuing the caution for the original foul (I think) and the second: I don't believe he gave a straight red for the head butt, but he should have; had he done it straight away and been in their faces, maybe, maybe, Orozco restrains himself. But this is just so much futile prattle.
Aside from the above, I don't think the refs did such a bad job, maybe I'm biased. On the head butt of Orozco (and I don't remember where he was positioned), maybe he didn't see it, maybe he got advice from the AR in that half, nearly a whole width of the field away. There is a tendency among soccer fans to underestimate the difficulty of getting myriad, hundreds and hundreds of calls "right", even when they involve judgment in 50/50s and instant application of the Laws and of Interpretations (ATRs).
On the Orozco incident, they got it wrong and late, and finally rectified the mistake--and by the way, Orozco's push/slap cannot be negated by the prior head butt, does not work that way--but it cannot be overstated how difficult it is to catch everything, or at least everything that matters--with moving bodies between the ref's eyes and the contact (often deliberately so, in order to shield), the foul, the unsporting behavior. Some refs are just plain bad, incompetent, not up to the bigness of the match, no doubt, and the center missed some calls in the middle third when our guys were pulled down and theirs too, but it was not a terrible job, imo.
On point exactly. I have been a soccer referee for years and cannot overstate how difficult it is for the center official to see everything, particularly away from play. Recall that for the most part you have three officials covering an area that is larger than a football field. Now, in this tournament when playing teams from South America who have a reputation for embellishment and taking late shots or hard fouls, it is important for players on the USMNT to not get drawn into retaliation measures.
Nothing will change until the officials actually start to card players who are embellishing or who take the extra cheap shot. Problem is that in most instances the official does not want to take the game away from the players by making a call that leaves a team shorthanded. When they do, all hell breaks loose with fans screaming about similar plays that were not carded. It is a lose-lose situation.
Jeffrey, while I understand, in this case, he was about 6 feet away from the incident.
As far as the Jones elbow, agreed. That was a skank play. I'm not defending that idiot either.
While I don't expect you to get every play right, far stricter punishments for diving as well as writhing (like if you go to ground and don't get right back up, you MUST get off the field immediately and stay off for 5 mins at least), a lot of this clock killing nonsense would be no more.
With a match I'm interested in watching--a lot of them in late June--I find it's really two stages, or two rings, if you will: one opponent vs. the other in the main ring, but a very important side ring is how the players are reacting to the ref crew calls and non-calls, and in that ring, often the two opponents are on the same side, and woe to the ref who is not in touch with that dynamic.
And as you know, it's not difficult to lose touch with the meta game if one is not tuned in to multiple frequencies at once, hidden contact, spoken words, and as you say, action off the ball. And, if your ARs are inexperienced or shy about making calls and communicating, there can be trouble in Dodge City
As I said above, I agree, without reservation. Further, the Laws of the Game contain strictures in Law 12 regarding "simulation" (what is referred to in this thread as embellishment, diving, flopping, writhing, lol) as one of the forms of unsporting behavior, and myriad interpretations in ATRs.
But unless FIFA and the national associations get on the same page on this, that is to say not permitting widespread and pervasive flouting of the Law, you are not going to have the referees out front and attempting to enforce this by themselves without backing from FIFA, associations national and regional, and Tournament organizers (UEFA, CONCACAF, etc.).
Football (soccer) is so wildly popular and lucrative (just ask all the FIFA officers and former officers under indictment), it may be that there is some broadband institutional sense of don't fix what's not broken. And in this context it does offend many fans, but as long as all parties are taking advantage of it, there won't be too hard a push to change. To make a crude analogy, there will have to be some travesty, some divine intervention, some really bad stink or formal public outcry, as there was in the NFL re. headhunting and protecting the QBs, before it's likely to change.
imo