| Hornacek’s coaching staff is shaping up. After Kurt Rambis, who may coach summer league, Hornacek will bring in former Phoenix assistants Jerry Sichting and Corey Gaines. Hornacek will retain Josh Longstaff, who recently came back from Latvia to work with Porzingis and is expected to head to Los Angeles later in the summer on Rose duty. Jim Cleamons, despite his triangle knowhow, Brian Keefe and Rasheed Hazzard won’t return. |
Berman also confirms that Noah is their top C target.
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Rose/Galloway
Crabbe/mayo
Melo/Lance
KP
Noah/koq/willy
He had an ACL in one knee. He took way too much time off to recover, but made a 100% recovery. Tons of players recover from that these days.
Then he had a meniscus repair which he made a 100% recovery. I'm guessing you aren't well educated with meniscus injuries, but when repaired(and they heal properly which his did), you make a full recovery. As good as new.
Why don't you instead of looking at the metrics go back and actually watch him play the last 3 months of the season..
You will see a guy shooting better and being more efficient, a guy who got to the rim and finished with ease, a guy who looked more explosive and still had that quick first step...
Because of a freak eye injury he didn't have a training camp and had blurred vision as the season went on he got better and better..
He had the same stats as Mike conley the guy who is guaranteed a max and is the best pg on the market
You seem to do this a lot. When backed into a corner, you change the discussion. I never said a word about how good or bad Rose is. I am however saying that his past knee injuries aren't something that would concern me from signing him until he's 30. You make it seem like he had microfracture or multiple ACL's to the same knee.
It's not reality, despite you saying it over and over and over and over and over again.
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In comment 13010041 Sgrcts said:
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In comment 13010030 nygiants16 said:
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If the Knicks are keeping rose they are just looking to add another piece
It's not like they wouldn't be able to
Not sure what kind of year Rose would have to have that I'd want him on the Knicks at 20+ mil a year for the next four years. I can't imagine what those knees are like when he's 30.
Just to explain Rose's knee injuries in plain terms for the average person to understand.
1. Tore his ACL. Plenty of guys come back from a torn ACL. These days, it shouldn't pose any long term effect, certainly not when he's 30 years old.
2. Tore the meniscus in his other knee. This meniscus tear was repaired and he made a 100% recovery. There will be no long term effects and it's not something that will hinder him in the future. Once repaired, assuming it heals properly, it's 100% back to normal.
3. Tore the same meniscus in a different spot. This is the only concerning long term knee injury, but it's not something that will hurt him too bad if he treats it. This time the meniscus was removed or shaved down. When it's cleaned up like this, it poses a long term threat because they are removing a part of his meniscus. If he keeps his legs strong and treats it well, it shouldn't have any negative effect in his early 30's. Plenty of players play a long time at a high level after 30 with this knee injury.
I know there is this narrative that you are the logical fan amongst a sea of homers, but you should probably educate yourself on what you are saying.
Please educate me more on how many players whose entire game was predicated on athleticism who had 3 major knee injuries and came back to what they were.
Add in players who miss as much time as Rose has.
While you're at it, please educate me on how players who reliable on their athleticism, especially PGs, tend to age.
Then cross section those groups and educate me on how you think Derrick Rose will age.
I'll be waiting!
Disregarding both the sample size for Rose's situation as well as advances in medical science over X number of years is dumb. He just gave you a breakdown of typical recovery for each type of injury after you yourself mentioned Rose's knees.
No one knows how Rose will cope. But defending a position you know nothing about is the height of idiocy.
Congrats on being a picture perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect though.
What that guy has done is extremely rare. He's had 3 ACL's to the same knee. He's an aberration. It's really amazing what that guy has come back from.
Exceptions and rules.
Domenik Hixon did too, and he retired at 28 or 29.
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Why don't you look at the metrics and how they graded Rose last year, and tell me why they are so wrong and he was such a good player?
Why don't you instead of looking at the metrics go back and actually watch him play the last 3 months of the season..
You will see a guy shooting better and being more efficient, a guy who got to the rim and finished with ease, a guy who looked more explosive and still had that quick first step...
Because of a freak eye injury he didn't have a training camp and had blurred vision as the season went on he got better and better..
He had the same stats as Mike conley the guy who is guaranteed a max and is the best pg on the market
He absolutely didn't have the same stats. Mike Conley was a 19.4 PER guy to Rose 13.5. Conley was a 2.86 RPM guy to Rose -4.27. They weren't even comparable as players. WS Conley 5.3/Rose .1, WS48 Conley .144 Rose .009 VORP Conley 1.7 Rose -1.7.
You can be for or against stats but if all the all in one metrics are THAT slanted, hard to argue with them.
Westbrook made a "full" and Rose has as well. Yes you lose part of the meniscus which doesn't grow back but you can play at 100% nonetheless.
Rose has lost as he said he's rhythm and conditioning after not playing as much the last few seasons but I expect that he will prove thats he's fully back or close to.
Ok I'll bite- how does trading for Rose help with the cap in terms of getting KD, especially since we now have to replace a favorable cost controlled deal for our starting C?
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Is the 4 or 5 of you, who may be Knick fans or not, constantly bashing Phil and every move he has made, and just adding KD "Is not coming here". Well guess what, you have a 31 out of 32 chance to be right. (It's not rocket science here folks). But the trade helps. Short term and long term and that you can't debate. If you understand the CAP and how it works . Yes Lopez had a cost controlled deal that was favorable but when you factor in (he will be replaced and he was a bottom 1/3 center in the NBA it's no big deal. You can't say NOW we have a shot. We didn't before and now we do. As a Knick fan we have hope. That's all we ask for. If you don't put yourself in the position to win, you can't. We can now. Time will tell. And the 4 or 5 of you (and you know who you are) can go F... Off!!!
Ok I'll bite- how does trading for Rose help with the cap in terms of getting KD, especially since we now have to replace a favorable cost controlled deal for our starting C?
Trading for Rose doesn't help with luring KD in terms of the cap, it helps by making the Knicks a more attractive destination. According to reports he had no interest in the Knicks unless that upgraded the PG position? They did that, and now supposedly the Knicks are on his radar. Robin Lopez is a solid NBA player, he's a slightly above average center, but he isn't the type of guy that is going to attract free agents. Whether you think he's a good player or not, Derrick Rose is a guy that gets people's attention, and he just so happens to be close friends with Kevin Durant, that's how he helps attract free agents.
In terms of the cap, it doesn't help this year, but moving Lopez absolutely helps going forward. Reasonably costed or not, at some point Lopez's contract was going to be a hindrance because he plays the same position that Porzingis projects to. I don't think they want him playing major minutes at center this year, but at some point, probably as early as 2017, that's where he is going to end up playing. At that point Lopez's contract isn't worth it to the team anymore because that money would be better used on another position. That's the best part about this trade, they get to take a flier on Rose and see if he returns to form while also making the team more attractive to Durant. If neither of those things workout then you let him walk next year and have money to spend on someone that doesn't play the same position as Porzingis.
lastly... Durant was at rucker park with 2 nets yesterday... i think he views Lopez, RHJ, and Bogs as a better chance to win then OKC.........
They had absolutely nothing at the guard position and decided to take a chance on rose to see if he can recapture what he once was, he showed some of it last year averaging 17 and 7 on 47% shooting to end the year...
If it works out they control a his bird rights and have a point guard for the next 5 or so years...
This trade gives them more flexibility to start over as well if it doesn't work out, if they Auckland next year or rose is terrible they can easily say ok we tried not going to work and they let rose go and trade melo and tank the next couple of years...
There were no game changing guards in free agency, rose has the chance to be that, they probably also felt they had a good shot at noah and still have room to bring in another max player or fill out the roster...this trade gave them more flexibility in there roster and how they can build it
lastly... Durant was at rucker park with 2 nets yesterday... i think he views Lopez, RHJ, and Bogs as a better chance to win then OKC.........
Well always liked you hotdogs, we just hated the nets in the playoffs and the knicks not so we took it out on you...
Lopez wasn't a bottom 1/3rd center last season. Simply untrue. He's not a star at his position, but he's easily a solid starter.
If knicks sign Noah and Crabbe and their offseason was rose noah and Crabbe, was it a good move?
You have to wait to see what the final roster looks like before you start freaking out how it was such a horrible move and the team is doomed
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In comment 13010437 Carl in CT said:
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Is the 4 or 5 of you, who may be Knick fans or not, constantly bashing Phil and every move he has made, and just adding KD "Is not coming here". Well guess what, you have a 31 out of 32 chance to be right. (It's not rocket science here folks). But the trade helps. Short term and long term and that you can't debate. If you understand the CAP and how it works . Yes Lopez had a cost controlled deal that was favorable but when you factor in (he will be replaced and he was a bottom 1/3 center in the NBA it's no big deal. You can't say NOW we have a shot. We didn't before and now we do. As a Knick fan we have hope. That's all we ask for. If you don't put yourself in the position to win, you can't. We can now. Time will tell. And the 4 or 5 of you (and you know who you are) can go F... Off!!!
Ok I'll bite- how does trading for Rose help with the cap in terms of getting KD, especially since we now have to replace a favorable cost controlled deal for our starting C?
Trading for Rose doesn't help with luring KD in terms of the cap, it helps by making the Knicks a more attractive destination. According to reports he had no interest in the Knicks unless that upgraded the PG position? They did that, and now supposedly the Knicks are on his radar. Robin Lopez is a solid NBA player, he's a slightly above average center, but he isn't the type of guy that is going to attract free agents. Whether you think he's a good player or not, Derrick Rose is a guy that gets people's attention, and he just so happens to be close friends with Kevin Durant, that's how he helps attract free agents.
In terms of the cap, it doesn't help this year, but moving Lopez absolutely helps going forward. Reasonably costed or not, at some point Lopez's contract was going to be a hindrance because he plays the same position that Porzingis projects to. I don't think they want him playing major minutes at center this year, but at some point, probably as early as 2017, that's where he is going to end up playing. At that point Lopez's contract isn't worth it to the team anymore because that money would be better used on another position. That's the best part about this trade, they get to take a flier on Rose and see if he returns to form while also making the team more attractive to Durant. If neither of those things workout then you let him walk next year and have money to spend on someone that doesn't play the same position as Porzingis.
you know what attracts free agents? Winning. And you build a winning team via smart roster decisions and not overpaying in trades.
Rose is 3 years older than Grant, there is a reason he slid in the draft, it's because people thought his ceiling was very low and there was not much more than what he was at right now...
If rose averages 17 and 8 on 45% shooting and knicks make the playoffs and win a round was the trade worth it?
So you would be comfortable saying after last year grant will be a starter in this league?
If knicks sign Noah and Crabbe and their offseason was rose noah and Crabbe, was it a good move?
You have to wait to see what the final roster looks like before you start freaking out how it was such a horrible move and the team is doomed
Even though I wasn't supporting the trade I agree with this. A part of the reason for my dislike for the trade was that it showed there was a clear misconception that this team can compete this year. But I had a feeling that was the case. I gotta wait for FA to happen to see how worth it this trade was. If we land Noah on a similar deal to Lopez's and a SG like Baze or Lee I think it's a win.
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to try to portray the trade as a no-lose situation is ridiculous. Grant wasnt very low ceiling and he didnt show nothing last year. Preposterous.
So you would be comfortable saying after last year grant will be a starter in this league?
Now that the Bulls are developing him? Most definetly.
Multiple people also reported Rambis would be head coach.
And then there's also the opportunity cost of overpaying for a mediocre PG on a max contract. Or the fact that the new hole that has been created fits in with what's available in FA.
If knicks sign Noah and Crabbe and their offseason was rose noah and Crabbe, was it a good move?
You have to wait to see what the final roster looks like before you start freaking out how it was such a horrible move and the team is doomed
Doesnt move the needle? A few years ago he was a 9.5 win player.
People really seem to think that if a player isnt a superstar, he's not terribly valuable. That's really nonsense. Robin Lopez is a really nice piece. IMO the most valuable piece moved in the Rose deal. Phil got fleeced a bit IMO. Not terribly because Rose is a lottery ticket, but he gave up a good, winning, starting C on a very good contract and a PG who could develop into a starter, for one year of a guy who hasnt been good in like 4 years.
ah yes, flexibility! Let's not ever try to build something. Let's constantly chase the next shiny new toy!
And yes - if the rest of the league places a certain value on a guy and Phil/Mills pay more than that - I'm going to call it an overpay.
If rose averages 17 and 8 on 45% shooting and knicks make the playoffs and win a round was the trade worth it?
A flawed approach can yield a favorable result. In this case, a good result might even be likely, at least in the short term. For those willing to overlook potential long term cap ramifications and opportunity costs, then this trade makes all kinds of sense! But for those that deal in economic and cap reality, it's a foolish use of assets.
Easy killer. A 4 year contract isn't a stop-gap. The Afflalo and DWill contracts - THOSE were stopgaps.
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to try to portray the trade as a no-lose situation is ridiculous. Grant wasnt very low ceiling and he didnt show nothing last year. Preposterous.
So you would be comfortable saying after last year grant will be a starter in this league?
Yes, I expect Grant to be a starter, or at least a good 3rd guard. As a rookie he got to the paint at will, showed good PG skills, and was a plus defender. His drawbacks were strength (almost always fixable) and shooting (which drastically improved post ASG).
What's interesting is your pivot. You said he showed nothing and had a very low ceiling, and when you got some push back you changed the standard to being a starter. Which goes to the other point I just made -- depth is important. Just because a guy isnt a star doesnt mean you dismiss his value.
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season. That doesn't change the fact that it's been reported by multiple people that there was no market for Rose and that other teams were expecting assets in return for taking him. And then there's the opportunity cost of what you could get for Lopez down the road. You could replace Lopez with prime Shaq - it doesn't mean you give Lopez away when you don't have to.
Multiple people also reported Rambis would be head coach.
anyone as plugged in as Wojo or KC Johnson (in Chicago)?
So don't give a mediocre PG a max deal? I know, it's a crazy thought. Forgive me if I think maybe it's ok to build slowly. After all, the likely future franchise player of this team is 20.
So again that is where my question stemmed from..
Also lopez does not move the needle in the sense that other star players are not going to come here because of lopez, Derrick rose is different and to maybe you and me he is not the same player but guys he is friends with around the league see it differently...
Lopez was a stop gap in the sense he was not the long term starter, he was an asset and the knicks used that asset to address their back court...
WTF? Even if that's true, that doesn't mean you give him a away. And of course, how is Rose not a stop gap?
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In comment 13010558 Enzo said:
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season. That doesn't change the fact that it's been reported by multiple people that there was no market for Rose and that other teams were expecting assets in return for taking him. And then there's the opportunity cost of what you could get for Lopez down the road. You could replace Lopez with prime Shaq - it doesn't mean you give Lopez away when you don't have to.
Multiple people also reported Rambis would be head coach.
anyone as plugged in as Wojo or KC Johnson (in Chicago)?
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And then there's also the opportunity cost of overpaying for a mediocre PG on a max contract. Or the fact that the new hole that has been created fits in with what's available in FA.
So don't give a mediocre PG a max deal? I know, it's a crazy thought. Forgive me if I think maybe it's ok to build slowly. After all, the likely future franchise player of this team is 20.
Building slowly doesn't change the fact that with arguably one of the best frontcourts in the league, the team still only won 32 games. Backcourt improvement was needed.
They could have stayed with Grant and seen what else he could offer in his second year, and then try to get a 2 as well. I would have no problem with that - it's what I expected.
The only real complaint about this trade is that they should have gotten a 1st rounder in return rather than a 2nd rounder. The "woe is me" attitude is a bit dramatic.
I've been with you in the past. The Knicks were notorious for being on the losing end of trades and trading from a position of weakness which forced them to constantly throw in players and picks. I fail to see how this fits into that same mold however. First off, we traded a serviceable and quite replaceable big man that Phil signed last year. It was a brilliant move by Jackson. In years past when we were going big game hunting, we would have saved the cap space. Phil bought a guy that fit in well and in turn bought a trade piece for the next season. Then we traded Grant who is a long ways from being a starting caliber PG, IMO. The salaries were a wash and Rose has 1 year on his deal. In years past, we would trade for long term problems. This is a 1 year tryout for an MVP caliber player on a team desperate for a PG. Sorry but you are way off base on this one.
Rose is an MVP caliber player? What color is the sky in your world? He hasn't been that guy in a long time. And of course everything else you said shows little understand of how the cap will impact salaries and what it's going to cost to potentially fill two giant holes. Oh, and we don't have any wings and there's zero bench.
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season. That doesn't change the fact that it's been reported by multiple people that there was no market for Rose and that other teams were expecting assets in return for taking him. And then there's the opportunity cost of what you could get for Lopez down the road. You could replace Lopez with prime Shaq - it doesn't mean you give Lopez away when you don't have to.
I've been with you in the past. The Knicks were notorious for being on the losing end of trades and trading from a position of weakness which forced them to constantly throw in players and picks. I fail to see how this fits into that same mold however.
it's easy - they overpaid compared to what the rest of the league felt was fair value for Rose. Pay attention.
are you going to get a guy as good as him on a contract that good? Let me know if/when that happens. Even if you can, you don't just give away Lopez.
whole lot of nonsense here. There's nothing brilliant about trading assets for a guy the other team is looking to dump.
It's amazing how some of you set the bar so low for this team.
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after Phil Jackson signed Lopez. Were you on board with the signing or were you mad at the contract because EVERYONE was screaming that it was a desperate overpay. I'd bet that you were not happy at the time. Well, he turned that and a middling young player into a 1 year tryout for an MVP caliber player. If it doesn't work out with Rose, there are a plethora of good PG's available next year. We also have a ton of money to replace Lopez who is easily replaceable.
Rose is an MVP caliber player? What color is the sky in your world? He hasn't been that guy in a long time. And of course everything else you said shows little understand of how the cap will impact salaries and what it's going to cost to potentially fill two giant holes. Oh, and we don't have any wings and there's zero bench.
There were giant holes to fill prior to the trade. Now one of the holes has shifted - to a position that has more of a market to fill it. Now, if filling it costs a significant amount more than Rolo's annual value, you have a point.
And we didn't have wings or a bench prior to the trade, so that's not really a viable argument.
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In comment 13010620 Keith said:
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after Phil Jackson signed Lopez. Were you on board with the signing or were you mad at the contract because EVERYONE was screaming that it was a desperate overpay. I'd bet that you were not happy at the time. Well, he turned that and a middling young player into a 1 year tryout for an MVP caliber player. If it doesn't work out with Rose, there are a plethora of good PG's available next year. We also have a ton of money to replace Lopez who is easily replaceable.
Rose is an MVP caliber player? What color is the sky in your world? He hasn't been that guy in a long time. And of course everything else you said shows little understand of how the cap will impact salaries and what it's going to cost to potentially fill two giant holes. Oh, and we don't have any wings and there's zero bench.
There were giant holes to fill prior to the trade. Now one of the holes has shifted - to a position that has more of a market to fill it. Now, if filling it costs a significant amount more than Rolo's annual value, you have a point.
And we didn't have wings or a bench prior to the trade, so that's not really a viable argument.
sorry but I don't consider one year of an injury prone player a solution to the PG hole. It's a very risky stop gap. And I'm more scared of what happens if he has a good year and we pay him next summer than the alternative. And his injury history means you have to make certain you have a quality backup - which isn't going to come cheap as well. Saying they just exchanged one "hole" for "another" is a huge reach.
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after Phil Jackson signed Lopez. Were you on board with the signing or were you mad at the contract because EVERYONE was screaming that it was a desperate overpay. I'd bet that you were not happy at the time. Well, he turned that and a middling young player into a 1 year tryout for an MVP caliber player. If it doesn't work out with Rose, there are a plethora of good PG's available next year. We also have a ton of money to replace Lopez who is easily replaceable.
Rose is an MVP caliber player? What color is the sky in your world? He hasn't been that guy in a long time. And of course everything else you said shows little understand of how the cap will impact salaries and what it's going to cost to potentially fill two giant holes. Oh, and we don't have any wings and there's zero bench.
I have a very good understanding of it and we've discussed it in the past many times. We also didn't have a bench or wings before the trade so I fail to see how this trade effected that.
Answer my question. What were your thoughts about the Lopez signing? I'm guessing you bashed it like every other move(rightfully so on the other moves) because of our history. Yes or no? Phil signed a guy, Lopez, knowing that he could be a piece for the future. Lopez is quite replaceable. He's a league average center that doesn't excel in any aspect of the game. It's really not nearly as big of a deal as you are making it seem. Especially since its June and we will replace him.
I understand the doom and gloom. You have been bashing the front office for years(again, rightfully so), but you are so far off base on this one. It was a low risk, high reward trade and there is nothing you've said to change that. We didn't throw in picks or anything. We traded almost little of value for Rose.