| Hornaceks coaching staff is shaping up. After Kurt Rambis, who may coach summer league, Hornacek will bring in former Phoenix assistants Jerry Sichting and Corey Gaines. Hornacek will retain Josh Longstaff, who recently came back from Latvia to work with Porzingis and is expected to head to Los Angeles later in the summer on Rose duty. Jim Cleamons, despite his triangle knowhow, Brian Keefe and Rasheed Hazzard wont return. |
Berman also confirms that Noah is their top C target.
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The last part is the real issue. Really gonna invest in both rose and Noah long term?
I agree I just want them to preserve that Max slot..
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almost certainly overpay (4 for 72 or something like that), but Im a big fan of Noah's game and he's a great fit for the modern NBA. As long as he's healthy he's a top 5-10 C. The problem is he's never healthy.
The last part is the real issue. Really gonna invest in both rose and Noah long term?
Rose - unclear. But I'm willing to pay noah for four years. He's 31, never has been a particularly explosive athlete. Gets by more on tenacity and competitive spirit more than anything else.
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almost certainly overpay (4 for 72 or something like that), but Im a big fan of Noah's game and he's a great fit for the modern NBA. As long as he's healthy he's a top 5-10 C. The problem is he's never healthy.
I agree I just want them to preserve that Max slot..
If they don't get Durant I hope they sit on most of the space. Add noah, a couple cheap guys, then make a play for Westbrook/Lowry/whoever next year.
Durant is not coming to NY
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He deserves a statue in front of msg
Durant is not coming to NY
There are certainly more signs to suggest that the Knicks will at least get a meeting than not.
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In comment 13009554 nygiants16 said:
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He deserves a statue in front of msg
Durant is not coming to NY
There are certainly more signs to suggest that the Knicks will at least get a meeting than not.
I don't think people realize how close Durant is with rose and Melo
I am not even saying it's going to happen but to completely dismiss it is really not fair either
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In comment 13009554 nygiants16 said:
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He deserves a statue in front of msg
Durant is not coming to NY
There are certainly more signs to suggest that the Knicks will at least get a meeting than not.
Aldridge got 2 meetings with the Lakers last year.
Durant is not coming here. In fact, I don't think he's even considering them at all. It's due diligence.
The Knicks have 2 of Durant's best friends & a 7'3 unicorn who showed flashes of being dominant on both the offensive & defensive end.
If KD joins Melo, Rose, KP & possibly Joakim they are in the ECF.
The Knicks have 2 of Durant's best friends & a 7'3 unicorn who showed flashes of being dominant on both the offensive & defensive end.
Well yeah, my greater point was that meetings don't mean anything in reality. I'm saying all the meetings Aldridge had detracted from the fact that he was set on SA before FA even started.
This year all the meetings are detracting from the fact that he's going to remain in OKC.
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
You could either rescind Lance and Galloway giving you another 4 million or trade O'Quinn for nothing and clear out another 4 million...
Knicks have ways to clear out more space
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
This is exactly my thought process. Sure two of his bestest friends in the whole wide world are here. But you need 9-10 legit guys to fill out a team that has a shot at contending. If he signs here I'm not sure we have 5. Is he going to wait it out a year in his prime to try it out? And if Rose plays well and we have to Max both KD and Rose then we will have no cap space next year to make any noticeable improvements except for vet min guys at the ends of their career that want to win a title.
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But really I think he's resigning a 1+1. Thunder got better, and have guys in Adams and Oladipo who could make another could take a step forward. So this year's meetings could just be the setup for next summer.
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
This is exactly my thought process. Sure two of his bestest friends in the whole wide world are here. But you need 9-10 legit guys to fill out a team that has a shot at contending. If he signs here I'm not sure we have 5. Is he going to wait it out a year in his prime to try it out? And if Rose plays well and we have to Max both KD and Rose then we will have no cap space next year to make any noticeable improvements except for vet min guys at the ends of their career that want to win a title.
The Cavs just won the title with Richard Jefferson and JR Smith as their bench. Lets not get carried away here with needing to be 10 deep.
Plus, if you bring back Galloway, Thomas, Willy, KOQ, bring in Crawford for cheap...that's more than fine for a bench when you're starting Rose-KD-Melo-KP-Noah.
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But really I think he's resigning a 1+1. Thunder got better, and have guys in Adams and Oladipo who could make another could take a step forward. So this year's meetings could just be the setup for next summer.
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
This is exactly my thought process. Sure two of his bestest friends in the whole wide world are here. But you need 9-10 legit guys to fill out a team that has a shot at contending. If he signs here I'm not sure we have 5. Is he going to wait it out a year in his prime to try it out? And if Rose plays well and we have to Max both KD and Rose then we will have no cap space next year to make any noticeable improvements except for vet min guys at the ends of their career that want to win a title.
Cap is jumping another 20 million next off season so yes there will be space..
And if you have rose Durant Melo kp noah, it could be me and you on the bench and that team would be fine
Have to remember with 4 scorers like that you could have 2 of them on the court at all times
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But really I think he's resigning a 1+1. Thunder got better, and have guys in Adams and Oladipo who could make another could take a step forward. So this year's meetings could just be the setup for next summer.
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
You could either rescind Lance and Galloway giving you another 4 million or trade O'Quinn for nothing and clear out another 4 million...
Knicks have ways to clear out more space
$4M is not very much more than the new vet min.
I don't see a point in arguing about this now. We will see this in about a week or two.
Just like Aldridge didn't want to be a Center, I don't think KD will want to be a SG.
I don't see a point in arguing about this now. We will see this in about a week or two.
So he won't do that, but he'll put his future in the hands of Russell Westbrook who pretty obviously wants to GTFO OKC and is a free agent after next year? A 1+1 deal could make sense, but signing long term with OKC would be strange.
I lied the guy in the Instagram post is Chris brinkley and he is actually a knicks employee
Westbrook is way better then Rose. Melo & KP are better then anybody else they have on their team.
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In comment 13009556 giantsfan44ab said:
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In comment 13009554 nygiants16 said:
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He deserves a statue in front of msg
Durant is not coming to NY
There are certainly more signs to suggest that the Knicks will at least get a meeting than not.
Aldridge got 2 meetings with the Lakers last year.
Durant is not coming here. In fact, I don't think he's even considering them at all. It's due diligence.
You mention Aldridge. There was info that says Melo convinced Aldridge to come to the Knicks but Phil told him he wanted him strictly as a C which stopped the talks immediately. So, assuming Phil gets a sitdown w/KD, what position(s) are discussed? KP is not ready to be a FT Center so how would it break down? If Noah is part of the equation as well, how would 4 go into 3 starters? Noah off the bench,KP starts at center? If those 2 were signed,there'd be very little $$$ for SG/bench. Just trying to figure out how Phil could sell the Knicks as KD's best choice
Also- since the word is out who has early meetings with KD, and the Knicks aren't one of those teams, how can you say there are more signs they'll get a meeting then not?
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In comment 13009579 Deej said:
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But really I think he's resigning a 1+1. Thunder got better, and have guys in Adams and Oladipo who could make another could take a step forward. So this year's meetings could just be the setup for next summer.
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
This is exactly my thought process. Sure two of his bestest friends in the whole wide world are here. But you need 9-10 legit guys to fill out a team that has a shot at contending. If he signs here I'm not sure we have 5. Is he going to wait it out a year in his prime to try it out? And if Rose plays well and we have to Max both KD and Rose then we will have no cap space next year to make any noticeable improvements except for vet min guys at the ends of their career that want to win a title.
The Cavs just won the title with Richard Jefferson and JR Smith as their bench. Lets not get carried away here with needing to be 10 deep.
Plus, if you bring back Galloway, Thomas, Willy, KOQ, bring in Crawford for cheap...that's more than fine for a bench when you're starting Rose-KD-Melo-KP-Noah.
Dude, it's great to be optimistic. It's something entirely different to have no understanding of how the salary cap works whatsoever.
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In comment 13009589 giantsfan44ab said:
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In comment 13009579 Deej said:
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But really I think he's resigning a 1+1. Thunder got better, and have guys in Adams and Oladipo who could make another could take a step forward. So this year's meetings could just be the setup for next summer.
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
This is exactly my thought process. Sure two of his bestest friends in the whole wide world are here. But you need 9-10 legit guys to fill out a team that has a shot at contending. If he signs here I'm not sure we have 5. Is he going to wait it out a year in his prime to try it out? And if Rose plays well and we have to Max both KD and Rose then we will have no cap space next year to make any noticeable improvements except for vet min guys at the ends of their career that want to win a title.
The Cavs just won the title with Richard Jefferson and JR Smith as their bench. Lets not get carried away here with needing to be 10 deep.
Plus, if you bring back Galloway, Thomas, Willy, KOQ, bring in Crawford for cheap...that's more than fine for a bench when you're starting Rose-KD-Melo-KP-Noah.
Dude, it's great to be optimistic. It's something entirely different to have no understanding of how the salary cap works whatsoever.
Salary Cap Shmalary Cap. It's mostly just a "guide" anyway, right?
He can always sign a 1+1 like Lebron and re-up for the full max next season.
Same goes for Noah for that matter.
Westbrook is way better then Rose. Melo & KP are better then anybody else they have on their team.
This is just a false statement. The Thunder are very deep, and Westbrook is better then Melo and KP combined currently. Adams is a stud. The Knicks have literally no one besides Melo, KP and I guess Rose who would see any minutes with the Thunder. KD missed most of last season, and Westbrook missed 15 games, and that team almost made one of the toughest playoffs to get into ever. This Thunder team is now much better then that one.
Do you know how the cap works?
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In comment 13009579 Deej said:
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But really I think he's resigning a 1+1. Thunder got better, and have guys in Adams and Oladipo who could make another could take a step forward. So this year's meetings could just be the setup for next summer.
Dont we have like $35 million in cap space? How could we get Durant (28 million), Noah, and fill out a roster?
This is exactly my thought process. Sure two of his bestest friends in the whole wide world are here. But you need 9-10 legit guys to fill out a team that has a shot at contending. If he signs here I'm not sure we have 5. Is he going to wait it out a year in his prime to try it out? And if Rose plays well and we have to Max both KD and Rose then we will have no cap space next year to make any noticeable improvements except for vet min guys at the ends of their career that want to win a title.
Cap is jumping another 20 million next off season so yes there will be space..
And if you have rose Durant Melo kp noah, it could be me and you on the bench and that team would be fine
Have to remember with 4 scorers like that you could have 2 of them on the court at all times
I think that people need to consider option C.
Durant knows that by returning to OKC, he will be on a competitive team. However, he probably also knows that Westbrook wants to go elsewhere after next season.
So, Durant can sign a Lebron type deal where he signs a two year deal with an opt out after year 1. He can do his FA due diligence this off-season, talk to teams about their plans and assess their longer term core.
For the Knicks, they currently only have about $32M committed past this coming season. With the big cap jump next year, the Knicks could bring in Durant AND re-sign Rose to a MUCH more cap friendly deal or go after Westbrook and still have a decent cap situation going forward.
Think about what other teams are offering as against what the Knicks could offer. San Antonio is in transition, and Durant would have a difficult time working with Leonard and Aldridge, especially since Aldrige doesn't want to play the 5.
Golden State is built for now, but FA is coming fast on them- can they keep Green, Curry and THompson together- plus Durant over numerous years?
The Knicks would be able to offer long term competitiveness- Zinger is going to be a star in the league for a decade or more. Melo is signed for at least 3 years. Bring in Durant and a PG of his choosing (let him choose between Rose and Westbrook)- who are both young enough to be competitive for at least 5 more years. That is a core than can win the East and possibly a title anytime over the next 5 years.
However, I think even Durant will admit that there is no perfect fit for him this off-season. In fact, I would be willing to bet that he has already made up his mind to take the two year with an opt out from OKC already, but is going to use this summer to find the best long term fit after this season.
He can always sign a 1+1 like Lebron and re-up for the full max next season.
Same goes for Noah for that matter.
I'd say it's far far crazier to think KD is signing here then him taking less money. So in the one in 15 billion chance he does, I could see it happening. However Knicks would have no bird rights on him and he'd be eligible for a lot more money next season so it might not really help us. Noah, no way it happens, he's old and injured he's going for a cash grab on his final deal.
Let's please not act like the Thunder are good without Durant. They were 27-28 in 2014-15. They were 3-7 in 2015-16.
Let's please not act like the Thunder are good without Durant. They were 27-28 in 2014-15. They were 3-7 in 2015-16.
And the Knicks were a 32 win team THIS year. With Melo and KP. The Thunder without KD would still beat this Knicks team with Rose.
One of the underappreciated players in the league for a while now. He has had a very impressive career starting from Florida, where he was overshadowed by Noah.
Melo/Horford/KP would be a NASTY frontcourt if KP levels up next year. If Rose is healthy and rejuvenated, they become a threat in the East.
I'm the dumb fuck yet you don't know how the NBA cap works and think the Knicks are a better team then the Thunder minus KD? Got it. Maybe do some googling, adults are having a discussion.
I think that people need to consider option C.
Durant knows that by returning to OKC, he will be on a competitive team. However, he probably also knows that Westbrook wants to go elsewhere after next season.
So, Durant can sign a Lebron type deal where he signs a two year deal with an opt out after year 1. He can do his FA due diligence this off-season, talk to teams about their plans and assess their longer term core.
For the Knicks, they currently only have about $32M committed past this coming season. With the big cap jump next year, the Knicks could bring in Durant AND re-sign Rose to a MUCH more cap friendly deal or go after Westbrook and still have a decent cap situation going forward.
Think about what other teams are offering as against what the Knicks could offer. San Antonio is in transition, and Durant would have a difficult time working with Leonard and Aldridge, especially since Aldrige doesn't want to play the 5.
Golden State is built for now, but FA is coming fast on them- can they keep Green, Curry and THompson together- plus Durant over numerous years?
The Knicks would be able to offer long term competitiveness- Zinger is going to be a star in the league for a decade or more. Melo is signed for at least 3 years. Bring in Durant and a PG of his choosing (let him choose between Rose and Westbrook)- who are both young enough to be competitive for at least 5 more years. That is a core than can win the East and possibly a title anytime over the next 5 years.
However, I think even Durant will admit that there is no perfect fit for him this off-season. In fact, I would be willing to bet that he has already made up his mind to take the two year with an opt out from OKC already, but is going to use this summer to find the best long term fit after this season.
I have so many issues with this post I don't even know where to start- but from the bottom.
You'd lose that bet- too much changes from season to season for a guy to take his offseason to figure out what he's gonna do in a year. This time last year would you have thought KP was attractive to any star FA? It would make zero sense to do that. Trades, guys getting injured, coaching changes, players dealing rapidly, players ascending rapidly, other free agents signing this season. There is just no way to know what happens and I guarantee you that KD is not doing what you think he is. KD is looking to win, and now. He's not gonna punt a year if he thinks a better situation is out there already.
However, the biggest issue that I have with your post is that you can somehow look at GS, a team that just won 73 games and has been to two finals, winning one, with a back to back MVP and multiple all NBA players. You can look at San Antonio, possibly the best run franchise in sports history at this point, with 17 50 win seasons, with the best wing defender in the game, a top 3-5 player, maybe the greatest coach of all time. Then you can look at the Knicks coming off a 32 win season, with a 21 year old sophomore, a 32 year old SF with knee issues who has played 67, 77, 40 and 72 games in his last 4 seasons and a 27 year old PG who missed a full season and has played 10, 51 and 66 games in his last 4 seasons.
You can look at all these situations and think that somehow the Knicks situation has the ability to offer long term competitiveness as an advantage over the other 2 teams? A team in "transition" that just won 67 games? You wonder how GS can keep Curry/Green/Thompson/KD but you have no worries how the Knicks would keep KP/KD/Melo/Rose? The other 2 teams you mentioned have relatively clean injury histories, and the Knicks would have 2 of their main guys with knee problems, but the Knicks are the ones with the long term competitiveness to offer?
Its just mind boggling the kool aid Knicks fans are drinking right now. Literally mind boggling- the idea that the Knicks can offer any kind of competitiveness that GS or SA can not is just..................
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The Thunder aren't that good. They are good because Durant is there.
Westbrook is way better then Rose. Melo & KP are better then anybody else they have on their team.
This is just a false statement. The Thunder are very deep, and Westbrook is better then Melo and KP combined currently. Adams is a stud. The Knicks have literally no one besides Melo, KP and I guess Rose who would see any minutes with the Thunder. KD missed most of last season, and Westbrook missed 15 games, and that team almost made one of the toughest playoffs to get into ever. This Thunder team is now much better then that one.
You seem to be vehemently anti-Knicks for some reason. The Thunder are very deep? Come on.
Adams is good, but he's a role player 5. If you say Adams is a stud, then you have to say RoLo is a stud as well - something I don't think even Knicks fans would do.
Kanter is very good off the bench. Waiters is completely hit or miss. Oladipo needs to improve his jumpshot, but could be quite a good piece. Westbrook is Westbrook. Roberson offers nothing offensively - in fact, you can make the case that he's actually worse than Lance Thomas pre-injury last year.
Let's not pretend like OKC is some crazy juggernaut. They go as Durant/Westbrook go.
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To have 3 players who would play for the Thunder considering we only have 5 players on the team.
Let's please not act like the Thunder are good without Durant. They were 27-28 in 2014-15. They were 3-7 in 2015-16.
And the Knicks were a 32 win team THIS year. With Melo and KP. The Thunder without KD would still beat this Knicks team with Rose.
Except for the time this past year that they didn't, without Rose. But please, continue.
30-35 in their last 65 games without him seems to show that.
Unfortunately I wasn't born with the knowledge of how the salary cap works. So I was asking a question. You obviously don't know how to answer a simple question so yes you'd be the dumb fuck.
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In comment 13009645 Big Rick in FL said:
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To have 3 players who would play for the Thunder considering we only have 5 players on the team.
Let's please not act like the Thunder are good without Durant. They were 27-28 in 2014-15. They were 3-7 in 2015-16.
And the Knicks were a 32 win team THIS year. With Melo and KP. The Thunder without KD would still beat this Knicks team with Rose.
Except for the time this past year that they didn't, without Rose. But please, continue.
Well gee, the Timberwolves beat the Warriors in one game too! Who cares about sample size, Knicks championship 2017-2027! Cant wait to see KD wear a Knicks uniform.
Unfortunately can't see Noah getting only 12 or 17. Teams will be shelling out serious cash this offseason. I'd rather have Hortford because his offensive game is more versatile if price is equal.
Where did I mention anything about Draymond?
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but I'd rather play Noah 12-17 m than Horford 20-26. With Willy, KOQ, KP, we need a serviceable guy who can go 25. Not a 40 min focal point.
Unfortunately can't see Noah getting only 12 or 17. Teams will be shelling out serious cash this offseason. I'd rather have Hortford because his offensive game is more versatile if price is equal.
If price is equal it's a no brainier for Horford. We will see. I can't see Noah getting the max. He was terrible when healthy and is coming off two injury plagued seasons. You're paying him in hopes of recovering past form, which is always risky. But again, if Rolo can get 14 in this market and people think it's a steal, I would pay Noah about the same.
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That's why I asked the question you dumb fuck.
I'm the dumb fuck yet you don't know how the NBA cap works and think the Knicks are a better team then the Thunder minus KD? Got it. Maybe do some googling, adults are having a discussion.
Don't let her get under your skin Rick. He's a narcissistic prick, who seriously thinks he adds insight, to the discussions at hand. He isn't fooling anyone.
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In comment 13009663 Jon in NYC said:
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but I'd rather play Noah 12-17 m than Horford 20-26. With Willy, KOQ, KP, we need a serviceable guy who can go 25. Not a 40 min focal point.
Unfortunately can't see Noah getting only 12 or 17. Teams will be shelling out serious cash this offseason. I'd rather have Hortford because his offensive game is more versatile if price is equal.
If price is equal it's a no brainier for Horford. We will see. I can't see Noah getting the max. He was terrible when healthy and is coming off two injury plagued seasons. You're paying him in hopes of recovering past form, which is always risky. But again, if Rolo can get 14 in this market and people think it's a steal, I would pay Noah about the same.
He was terrible when healthy and is coming off two injury plagued seasons.
So going by your logic, you'd rather pay slightly less to get a mediocre has-been than a current stud because you want there to be more minutes available to other mediocre players? I know you like KOQ but damn.
Hope is not a strategy so making comparisons on roster based on what one hopes a player becomes is silly.
So a team of rose kd Melo kp and noah are not the favorite in the east?
And yes Durant playing the 2 is stretch but it's not like he would play the 2 all game more than. Likely 15 minutes a game at the 2, offensively it would work fine the question would be defensively...
You act like there are no signs of KD coming to new York and we are all crazy for discussing it..
Here are the signs in case you have missed it, with Melo the past couple of days working out, dinner with melo, dinner with the knicks director of personnel and trainer for Melo and some other knicks players, close friends with rose and melo..
And with the meeting, every report says the knicks will get a meeting it is just not confirmed yet
Hope is not a strategy so making comparisons on roster based on what one hopes a player becomes is silly.
Rose started showing signs of his old self last year so it's not blind hope...and he is not going to be asked to be the number 1 option like he was in Chicago, he is going to be asked to set up Melo and kp and break down defenses...he is not going to be asked to shoulder the load...
Knicks are not asking him to come here and score 25 points a game, if he comes in and adds 17 and 7 and 48% shooting like he did at the end of last year knicks will be fine
Noah is more hope but he was good in the games he did play last yeaf..
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You are hoping rose reverts and hoping to sign Noah and see him revert...
Hope is not a strategy so making comparisons on roster based on what one hopes a player becomes is silly.
Rose started showing signs of his old self last year so it's not blind hope...and he is not going to be asked to be the number 1 option like he was in Chicago, he is going to be asked to set up Melo and kp and break down defenses...he is not going to be asked to shoulder the load...
Knicks are not asking him to come here and score 25 points a game, if he comes in and adds 17 and 7 and 48% shooting like he did at the end of last year knicks will be fine
Noah is more hope but he was good in the games he did play last yeaf..
Noah shot 38% from the field last year. And while Rose did pick it up late last year and has shown flashes, it's not like he had some crazy impressive stretch to close out the year. I'm rooting for Rose and I think the change of scenery + a scorer like Melo will help his chances of attaining redemption, but it's still a reach.
1) KD isn't coming here so all this proposed roster talk is meaningless. If you guys are just having fun fantasizing, have it and I'll back off. But the continued talk of the Knicks actually having a shot is annoying because it's just blind homerism. Trying to make the case that KD best shot of winning is on the Knicks is dumb.
2) no, that team isn't the favorite in the east. Cleveland would still be favored. Noah and Rose have a LOT to prove. We have no idea how the fit would be in your proposed line up- who is guarding your wings? Rose is your best wing defender there. KD is gonna come to the Knicks to run around chasing 2 guards all season? Rose is not a star anymore or even close. Noah is a few seasons from his peak. KP Is a few seasons until he peaks. It's just a mish mash of players. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Wouldn't be favored over Cleveland.
He'll never go away. He says everything over and over again, cause he realizes everyone talks around him, and never with him. Narcissists live with blinders on, and are only focused on their next rebuttal, yearning to always be right. He'll pound away his point (that Durant will never come) all day long if you let him. He obviously was once that five year old petulant child, who's always told to be seen but not heard, tantrums and all.
And here I thought Tiki Barber (the narcissist of all narcissists) was comical..
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We get it you hate the knicks and hate the trade but you just say the same thing over and over again...
He'll never go away. He says everything over and over again, cause he realizes everyone talks around him, and never with him. Narcissists live with blinders on, and are only focused on their next rebuttal, yearning to always be right. He'll pound away his point (that Durant will never come) all day long if you let him. He obviously was once that five year old petulant child, who's always told to be seen but not heard, tantrums and all.
And here I thought Tiki Barber (the narcissist of all narcissists) was comical..
Sorry don't let me interrupt your circle jerk on KD signing and the Knicks becoming a 70 win team!!! How dare I disagree and bring a little reality to the situation?
Westbrook is way better then Rose. Melo & KP are better then anybody else they have on their team.
If you watched any OKC series this playoffs you'd realize that Adams is more impactful right now than KP. He handled Draymond that series. He's only like 2 years older and has the potential of a top 5 center.
Interesting note I just read about. Bully Donovan was al Horford's coach at Florida. As of now, OKC can only afford KD's max and some change (KD's max is around $30M, right?).
But if they can find someone to take on Kanter's contract, they'll have around $20M. throw in Singler and Collison, that makes it closer to $30M. So enough of Horford. If you're Presti, I think this is the move you try to pull off at all costs. I think you can throw in Sabonis to a team in need to take on Singler's and Collison's contracts (if both of those guys are fully guaranteed, I'm not sure about that). I think a bottom feeder like Brooklyn would take on Kanter for nothing, maybe squeeze out a future first out if it as well.
Westbrook/Payne
Oladipo/Morrow
KD/Roberson
Horford
Adams/Mcgary
They'd have to get a bit creative with depth in the frontcourt, but they traded Ibaka in part to get more minutes for KD at the 4. This would no question be the favorites heading into the season.
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In comment 13009684 nygiants16 said:
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We get it you hate the knicks and hate the trade but you just say the same thing over and over again...
He'll never go away. He says everything over and over again, cause he realizes everyone talks around him, and never with him. Narcissists live with blinders on, and are only focused on their next rebuttal, yearning to always be right. He'll pound away his point (that Durant will never come) all day long if you let him. He obviously was once that five year old petulant child, who's always told to be seen but not heard, tantrums and all.
And here I thought Tiki Barber (the narcissist of all narcissists) was comical..
Sorry don't let me interrupt your circle jerk on KD signing and the Knicks becoming a 70 win team!!! How dare I disagree and bring a little reality to the situation?
If people were saying he was signing and it was a foregone conclusion you would have a point but not one person said it was happening..
It is a HYPOTHETICAL discussion, something you can not grasp and it is not you are disagreeing you are just dismissing everything people say arent just say the same thing over and over again...
We get it you don't think kp Durant is coming and you refuse to discuss it and you hate the rose deal, there is really nothing else you are bringing to the conversation, you have made all your points so kindly go away thanks
Any positive Knicks discussion has been fairy tales and day dreams for the past 16 years. That being said, you're not adding anything to the discussion - just shutting down hypotheticals. That's not Knicks discussion at all.
Do you always enjoy discussions with yourself?
I like Kanter as well but OKC isn't in the rebuilding around youth phase they were 5 years ago. OKC was far and away the best rebounding team last year and that was more on the fact that they played Westbrook, KD, and Adams 100+ minutes a game than the fact they played Kanter 18 mins a game. Horford isn't the monster Kanter is on the offensive glass but I think he's more than fine as a rebounding 4. Also Oladipo is in the top tier for rebounding guards as well so that gives them an edge as well.?The spacing and above average defense allows him to play 35 minutes a game compared to Kanter. You can also go small with Horford at the 5 and KD at the 4 and that wouldn't really work with Kanter.
If Horford is really in the mix you have to do it. He's *only* going to make $7-8M more a year than Kanter.
You're not helping.
The one thing I don't see is getting KD AND Noah. That's contingent on Noah taking a contract at 40% of his market value. There are clear suitors for his services, and I don't think he takes that big of a hometown discount on probably his last major FA deal.
Says who? Dream threads haven't worked out since 2010.
Woah, that's really unfair to ME.
You arent paying a guy 52 million dollars over 3 years to a guy who averaged 12 minutes per game against the best team in the west. Kanter is a very good player and has a lot of tools, but he is utterly useless against GS. So paying over 17 million dollars to a guy just to sit the bench? Makes no sense.
Yeah his shooting sucks, its the only thing that kept him from being All-NBA every year.
Report: Knicks top free-agent target is Joakim Noah
Yeah his shooting sucks, its the only thing that kept him from being All-NBA every year.
His offensive productivity has fallen off a cliff but defensively he still has it. His assist rate was still top notch though. The injuries scare me, although not in the same way Roses do. I'm not into it but mostly because of age and price. He's not a bad fit skill wise if he can stay on the court.
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who look at Noah and judge him by shooting%. He doesnt want to shoot. He is a defensive, rebounding big who plays his ass off and is an excellent passer - maybe the best passing big in the NBA.
Yeah his shooting sucks, its the only thing that kept him from being All-NBA every year.
His offensive productivity has fallen off a cliff but defensively he still has it. His assist rate was still top notch though. The injuries scare me, although not in the same way Roses do. I'm not into it but mostly because of age and price. He's not a bad fit skill wise if he can stay on the court.
Hey, something we can agree upon.
Now, heres why the knicks should target him. Your putting the teams stake next year in the two former bulls to be healthy, which is definitely risky. But as long as noah gets only 3-4 years.... its worth the risk. Because lets be honest..... if Lebron stays in Cleveland with Kyrie.... they are going to be the favorite in the east. And slow team build up from the knicks wont matter then. BUT, lets say you get an all-star type season from Rose. An All-NBA defensive year from Noah and throw in a guy at the two like Lee..... you COULD knock the Cavs off if everything clicks.
I dont know NY salary cap thing but can you sign Noah to something like 4 for 75 and still have money to attract Batum? What a squad then you guy would have.
DeMar DeRozan will receive interest from the Clippers, Warriors, Heat, Knicks, and the Magic during free agency. (via @usatodaynba)
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Why don't you stay off Knicks threads & let us dream. It will work out much better for everybody.
Says who? Dream threads haven't worked out since 2010.
Ummm basically everybody on this thread.
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In comment 13009765 dep026 said:
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who look at Noah and judge him by shooting%. He doesnt want to shoot. He is a defensive, rebounding big who plays his ass off and is an excellent passer - maybe the best passing big in the NBA.
Yeah his shooting sucks, its the only thing that kept him from being All-NBA every year.
His offensive productivity has fallen off a cliff but defensively he still has it. His assist rate was still top notch though. The injuries scare me, although not in the same way Roses do. I'm not into it but mostly because of age and price. He's not a bad fit skill wise if he can stay on the court.
Hey, something we can agree upon.
Now, heres why the knicks should target him. Your putting the teams stake next year in the two former bulls to be healthy, which is definitely risky. But as long as noah gets only 3-4 years.... its worth the risk. Because lets be honest..... if Lebron stays in Cleveland with Kyrie.... they are going to be the favorite in the east. And slow team build up from the knicks wont matter then. BUT, lets say you get an all-star type season from Rose. An All-NBA defensive year from Noah and throw in a guy at the two like Lee..... you COULD knock the Cavs off if everything clicks.
I dont know NY salary cap thing but can you sign Noah to something like 4 for 75 and still have money to attract Batum? What a squad then you guy would have.
The impossible happened! Cap space isn't there for that move though. Batum would have to take less then the max which he's sure to get.
Donnie Walsh put all his eggs in one basket and mortgaged the future to get Lebron. He never had a chance and killed the franchise.
Phil is doing it the smart way. He is making the roster more attractive but without mortgaging the future. It's like buying a lottery ticket. Your chances of winning are small but you do have a chance compared to the guy who did not buy a ticket. And you have not ruined your future by mortgaging the house like the guy who bought 10, 000 tickets.
We have to preface everything apparently with I don't think he is coming but there is a big difference between trying to sign Durante this year and Lebrun in 2010
Wat?
Stop talking
As for Noah vs Horford, I don't think anyone is disputing that Horford right now is better. But he's also far more expensive and should have more suitors.
Noah is a better fit for what the Knicks need right now relative to his price tag. The point is to allot your resources in a way to maximize your team, and the fact is I'd rather have Noah at 15M and a max wing player than vice versa. Especially since we have other serviceable guys at the 5.
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Considering what ended up happening- if he really wanted to come to NYC he could have engineered a similar deal. KD to the Knicks doesn't really make them contenders and there's no room to bring a similar player along.
Stop talking
If you think adding KD to Rose/Melo/KP/OQuinn/Holliday puts them on the Warriors/Cavs/Spurs or Thunder with KD level you should watch some other teams besides the Knicks on occasion. No combo of three Knicks mentioned is as good as KD/Westbrook/Adams or Curry/Klay/Draymond or Blake/CP3/Jordan or Lebron/Kyrie/Love. Adding KD in doesn't change that equation, never mind the fact that no trio of Knicks is in the stratosphere of KD/Curry/Klay/Draymond or KD/Kawhi/Aldridge, again even if you include KD on the Knicks. Now include the fact that Knicks have no one else on the roster and all the other names teams besides the Clippers are incredibly deep, it's pretty safe to say adding KD to this team doesn't make them automatic contenders this year or anything close. No one even took the Thunder this season as contenders seriously.
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Considering what ended up happening- if he really wanted to come to NYC he could have engineered a similar deal. KD to the Knicks doesn't really make them contenders and there's no room to bring a similar player along.
Stop talking
The gift that keeps on giving 😂🔫
Disagree- I LOVE KP. I loved it when the pick happened. I bought season tickets because of him. In fact most of my disappointment with the moves we've made is they aren't showing a commitment to building around him. I think KP can end up a top 5-10 player in the NBA.
However to expect him to turn into a top 25 player in the next year is asking a lot. Doesn't happen too often for young players to take that leap that quickly.
The gift that keeps on giving 😂🔫
Like your herpes?
Max derozan and try and get noah in here
starting 5 of
Rose
Derozan
Melo
Porzingis
Noah
2nd best team in east
I would prefer getting a combo of Whiteside or Horford/Courtney Lee
Rose
Lee
Melo
Porzingis
Whiteside/Horford
He's a dumbass. Should have gone to Wisco. he would have actually won something.
Of course, if KD doesn't laugh when you whip out a contract, you sign him first. But that's a pipe dream, probably Derozan as well.
I really don't want to max out Batum. Nice player, but not a top 3 player on a championship team.
So you agree that the Knicks with Durant are not a contender?
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has been right on the money on this thread.
So you agree that the Knicks with Durant are not a contender?
I think the Knicks with Durant have an outside shot at making the finals. I think Rose is going to break down and is a PG whose primary value is scoring and less so creating for others and there wouldn't be enough of the basketball to go around with a Rose/Melo/Durant/KP lineup. I also think that team would get shredded defensively.
If by some miracle they got past the Cavs, they'd promptly get smashed by whoever came out of the West.
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In comment 13009930 Ash_3 said:
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has been right on the money on this thread.
So you agree that the Knicks with Durant are not a contender?
I think the Knicks with Durant have an outside shot at making the finals. I think Rose is going to break down and is a PG whose primary value is scoring and less so creating for others and there wouldn't be enough of the basketball to go around with a Rose/Melo/Durant/KP lineup. I also think that team would get shredded defensively.
If by some miracle they got past the Cavs, they'd promptly get smashed by whoever came out of the West.
So you have them penciled into the ECF with a shot of beating the reigning champs.
hmmm, sounds like a contender to me?
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In comment 13009930 Ash_3 said:
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has been right on the money on this thread.
So you agree that the Knicks with Durant are not a contender?
I think the Knicks with Durant have an outside shot at making the finals. I think Rose is going to break down and is a PG whose primary value is scoring and less so creating for others and there wouldn't be enough of the basketball to go around with a Rose/Melo/Durant/KP lineup. I also think that team would get shredded defensively.
If by some miracle they got past the Cavs, they'd promptly get smashed by whoever came out of the West.
So if they were to beat the Cavs, they would get smashed by a team from a conference they just beat? If they get KD, OKC would be out. SA is a huge question mark with age questions. GS would obviously be very good.
Here's the thing with the NBA, there are only a few elite teams anymore. Cleveland, GS, and maybe SA would be the only elite ones if KD left OKC.
He's always had to be the scorer in new York he can look for others...
Also whiteside says he is making his decision July 1st
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In comment 13009936 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13009930 Ash_3 said:
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has been right on the money on this thread.
So you agree that the Knicks with Durant are not a contender?
I think the Knicks with Durant have an outside shot at making the finals. I think Rose is going to break down and is a PG whose primary value is scoring and less so creating for others and there wouldn't be enough of the basketball to go around with a Rose/Melo/Durant/KP lineup. I also think that team would get shredded defensively.
If by some miracle they got past the Cavs, they'd promptly get smashed by whoever came out of the West.
So if they were to beat the Cavs, they would get smashed by a team from a conference they just beat? If they get KD, OKC would be out. SA is a huge question mark with age questions. GS would obviously be very good.
Here's the thing with the NBA, there are only a few elite teams anymore. Cleveland, GS, and maybe SA would be the only elite ones if KD left OKC.
I had hoped "by some miracle" conveyed how unlikely I think that Knicks squad's victory was.
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In comment 13009950 Ash_3 said:
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In comment 13009936 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13009930 Ash_3 said:
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has been right on the money on this thread.
So you agree that the Knicks with Durant are not a contender?
I think the Knicks with Durant have an outside shot at making the finals. I think Rose is going to break down and is a PG whose primary value is scoring and less so creating for others and there wouldn't be enough of the basketball to go around with a Rose/Melo/Durant/KP lineup. I also think that team would get shredded defensively.
If by some miracle they got past the Cavs, they'd promptly get smashed by whoever came out of the West.
So if they were to beat the Cavs, they would get smashed by a team from a conference they just beat? If they get KD, OKC would be out. SA is a huge question mark with age questions. GS would obviously be very good.
Here's the thing with the NBA, there are only a few elite teams anymore. Cleveland, GS, and maybe SA would be the only elite ones if KD left OKC.
I had hoped "by some miracle" conveyed how unlikely I think that Knicks squad's victory was.
That's fine. Too many variables in play for me to judge whether or not they could face the Cavs in a competitive series. But they damn sure are contenders.
I read a fantasy basketball article from a few weeks ago on Rotoworld. It ranked all of the rookies since 2006 (who played 20+ minutes a night and 40+ games) based on what percentile they finished in the league overall in fantasy their respective rookie seasons.
The top 5 rookies in 9 category (FG%, FT%, Pts, 3pt FGs made, Rebs, Asts, Stls, Blks, & Turnovers) fantasy since 2006 were:
1 - Karl-Anthony Towns
2 - Stephen Curry
3 - Anthony Davis
4 - Kristaps Porzingis
5 - Kyrie Irving
That's how crazy KP's rookie season was. Among the other rookies in the top 25 were Durant, Lillard, Marc Gasol, Khawi Leonard, Horford, John Wall, and Derrick Rose. To be fair, there are players who put up terrible fantasy numbers as rookies who went on to be good players and vice-versa (Landry Fields).
Bc, that doesn't follow. If you can sign Durant, you sign Durant. That's obvious and worry about adjustments later.
I just am noting that a) the fit with Durant on *this* roster is really awkward and b) that it's extremely unlikely he signs here unless he sees Rose through MVP-tinted glasses.
Sure and having an excellent passing big like Noah would mitigate some of the issues that come with a score-first PG like Rose. I just think it's unlikely that either of them show much durability going forward, especially Rose.
Chicago is a well run franchise. They traded Rose for a good big on a great contract and a guy who just had an uninspired rookie year. Perhaps they think they can get Conley, but they wouldn't have traded Rose if they thought he could return to form. Chicago's been a good organization for years and I trust their judgment much more than I do the Knicks FO.
I'm a Knick optimist, but I'm bullish on Rose returning to form. Noah I'm less sure of, but I'm willing to bring him on board and take that risk.
Those same bulls fans wouldn't last one day in the hell hole that is being a Knicks fan then lol.
Who gets joy in shitting on hopes and dreams?
You guys bitch and moan incessantly, but that's not an index for whether it's well run or not.
Also, I guess the definition of "contender" has shifted to "guaranteed to win the championship."
I agree. I'm planning on stepping back and just trying to enjoy KP's excellence. Also glad that Rose is an expiring, since if he sucks or breaks down (as I expect him to), we're not on the hook even if the trade was bad asset management.
Also, I guess the definition of "contender" has shifted to "guaranteed to win the championship."
There's a lot of strawman construction here and it's irritating. Both you and I understand that a contender is a team with a non-trivial shot at winning the title. Now we might disagree about whether such and such a team is a contender by that definition, but it does not mean we're using different definitions.
The fact that you refer to them as dreamers shows that you realize that they know the chance of Durant coming is slim to none. Yet you continue to comment on it? For what? Who cares?
What's to sway? Everyone pretty much agrees Durant to NY is slim to none. It's just that the rest of us can enjoy a hypothetical discussion without being thrown into a fit of anger.
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most Bulls fans would say that their organization is actually one of the worst run ones in sports.
Those same bulls fans wouldn't last one day in the hell hole that is being a Knicks fan then lol.
Not disagreeing with that one bit. But Foreman and Paxson are not hitting the right buttons anymore.
Well we aren't....yet.
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It's kind of hopeless to try to sway the dreamers in here. We might as well just step back and let their hopes be destroyed and come back when the dust settles.
Who gets joy in shitting on hopes and dreams?
Hey listen- if you're dreaming and you realize there's a less then 1% chance of us getting KD, enjoy.
Me personally I'd rather dream on KPs potential, and this offseason has been really difficult so far for me as a Knicks fan because it's been about anything but.
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@IanBegley The Knicks have Derrick Rose's Bird Rights, so they can sign other FAs next summer & then exceed the cap to re-sign him if they so choose.
Doesn't matter if they have his bird rights in that scenario. Even if they have them he will still have a cap hold, and to sign free agents they would have to renounce his bird rights.
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@IanBegley The Knicks have Derrick Rose's Bird Rights, so they can sign other FAs next summer & then exceed the cap to re-sign him if they so choose.
He still has a huge cap hold though, so you can resign him and go over the cap but he doesn't count as 0 until they do so. In the case of Derrick Rose, his cap hold would be like 30 million dollars. They'd almost certainly renounce his rights, in which case you can't exceed the salary cap to resign him after.
Chicago is a well run franchise. They traded Rose for a good big on a great contract and a guy who just had an uninspired rookie year. Perhaps they think they can get Conley, but they wouldn't have traded Rose if they thought he could return to form. Chicago's been a good organization for years and I trust their judgment much more than I do the Knicks FO.
I don't know that them trading Rose was primarily about how they feel he'll play this season or if he'll "return to form". I think they've just decided to turn the page on the Thibs/Rose era and build around Butler, their 4/5 other young players, and their young coach.
That's part of it, and I've made my opinion of his future clear already, but the relationship was strained, and he and Butler as a pair were not working out as planned.
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Haven't seen this mentioned until now. I could have missed it, but I figured I'd post it.
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@IanBegley The Knicks have Derrick Rose's Bird Rights, so they can sign other FAs next summer & then exceed the cap to re-sign him if they so choose.
He still has a huge cap hold though, so you can resign him and go over the cap but he doesn't count as 0 until they do so. In the case of Derrick Rose, his cap hold would be like 30 million dollars. They'd almost certainly renounce his rights, in which case you can't exceed the salary cap to resign him after.
You do know the cap is supposed to jump 20 million again right? So you would have rose and 20 million in space
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In comment 13010003 Big Rick in FL said:
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Haven't seen this mentioned until now. I could have missed it, but I figured I'd post it.
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@IanBegley The Knicks have Derrick Rose's Bird Rights, so they can sign other FAs next summer & then exceed the cap to re-sign him if they so choose.
He still has a huge cap hold though, so you can resign him and go over the cap but he doesn't count as 0 until they do so. In the case of Derrick Rose, his cap hold would be like 30 million dollars. They'd almost certainly renounce his rights, in which case you can't exceed the salary cap to resign him after.
You do know the cap is supposed to jump 20 million again right? So you would have rose and 20 million in space
And any top FA getting a max would require 33M in space to sign next offseason.
It's not like they wouldn't be able to
It's not like they wouldn't be able to
Not sure what kind of year Rose would have to have that I'd want him on the Knicks at 20+ mil a year for the next four years. I can't imagine what those knees are like when he's 30.
Whiteside probably signs for around 21 million per and that is probably cheaper than the other two. Leaves the Knicks more money to get a shooting guard
Thoughts ?
Whiteside probably signs for around 21 million per and that is probably cheaper than the other two. Leaves the Knicks more money to get a shooting guard
Thoughts ?
I would imagine that Whiteside gets the max.
DaJuan Summers will play for the New York Knicks' Summer League team.
Whiteside is going to get 1000 million dollar contract and tank.
Whiteside is going to get 1000 million dollar contract and tank.
I don't think you can generalize for all players. That does happen and you could be right. However, I remember him busting his ass and sending videos out to every team just beggijg for a chance. Miami gave him that chance and he didn't disappoint. Could that change with a shitload of money? Absolutely. But he knows what it is like to be out of the NBA so maybe it means more to him than you think. He knows how much it is like a business. I think most guys do. Durant said he is gonna make a business decision. Does that mean he is gonna pack it in after his deal?
That's pretty much the only time to post on instagram.
Still don't know why he was waived.
He is very close with rose as well but still slim chance he signs with the knicks it seems...
According to every media outlet the knicks still suck and have no chance to win even after the rose trade...
No mention of how close rose and Melo are to Durant but ehh either way still small chance...
I would be really shocked if he left okc, only thing would be if Westbrook told him he was leaving next year...
I don't think he goes to the warriors or spurs, Heat would not be any better, it would be Durant wade and dragic that's it...
Clippers have to do a lot of work to get Durant and okc is not sign and trading him to the clippers..
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If the Knicks are keeping rose they are just looking to add another piece
It's not like they wouldn't be able to
Not sure what kind of year Rose would have to have that I'd want him on the Knicks at 20+ mil a year for the next four years. I can't imagine what those knees are like when he's 30.
Just to explain Rose's knee injuries in plain terms for the average person to understand.
1. Tore his ACL. Plenty of guys come back from a torn ACL. These days, it shouldn't pose any long term effect, certainly not when he's 30 years old.
2. Tore the meniscus in his other knee. This meniscus tear was repaired and he made a 100% recovery. There will be no long term effects and it's not something that will hinder him in the future. Once repaired, assuming it heals properly, it's 100% back to normal.
3. Tore the same meniscus in a different spot. This is the only concerning long term knee injury, but it's not something that will hurt him too bad if he treats it. This time the meniscus was removed or shaved down. When it's cleaned up like this, it poses a long term threat because they are removing a part of his meniscus. If he keeps his legs strong and treats it well, it shouldn't have any negative effect in his early 30's. Plenty of players play a long time at a high level after 30 with this knee injury.
I know there is this narrative that you are the logical fan amongst a sea of homers, but you should probably educate yourself on what you are saying.
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In comment 13010030 nygiants16 said:
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If the Knicks are keeping rose they are just looking to add another piece
It's not like they wouldn't be able to
Not sure what kind of year Rose would have to have that I'd want him on the Knicks at 20+ mil a year for the next four years. I can't imagine what those knees are like when he's 30.
Just to explain Rose's knee injuries in plain terms for the average person to understand.
1. Tore his ACL. Plenty of guys come back from a torn ACL. These days, it shouldn't pose any long term effect, certainly not when he's 30 years old.
2. Tore the meniscus in his other knee. This meniscus tear was repaired and he made a 100% recovery. There will be no long term effects and it's not something that will hinder him in the future. Once repaired, assuming it heals properly, it's 100% back to normal.
3. Tore the same meniscus in a different spot. This is the only concerning long term knee injury, but it's not something that will hurt him too bad if he treats it. This time the meniscus was removed or shaved down. When it's cleaned up like this, it poses a long term threat because they are removing a part of his meniscus. If he keeps his legs strong and treats it well, it shouldn't have any negative effect in his early 30's. Plenty of players play a long time at a high level after 30 with this knee injury.
I know there is this narrative that you are the logical fan amongst a sea of homers, but you should probably educate yourself on what you are saying.
Finally we agree! :)
Spurs have to get rid of half their team to be able to sign Durant, plus Aldridge will have to go to center where he doesn't want to play..
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In comment 13010041 Sgrcts said:
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In comment 13010030 nygiants16 said:
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If the Knicks are keeping rose they are just looking to add another piece
It's not like they wouldn't be able to
Not sure what kind of year Rose would have to have that I'd want him on the Knicks at 20+ mil a year for the next four years. I can't imagine what those knees are like when he's 30.
Just to explain Rose's knee injuries in plain terms for the average person to understand.
1. Tore his ACL. Plenty of guys come back from a torn ACL. These days, it shouldn't pose any long term effect, certainly not when he's 30 years old.
2. Tore the meniscus in his other knee. This meniscus tear was repaired and he made a 100% recovery. There will be no long term effects and it's not something that will hinder him in the future. Once repaired, assuming it heals properly, it's 100% back to normal.
3. Tore the same meniscus in a different spot. This is the only concerning long term knee injury, but it's not something that will hurt him too bad if he treats it. This time the meniscus was removed or shaved down. When it's cleaned up like this, it poses a long term threat because they are removing a part of his meniscus. If he keeps his legs strong and treats it well, it shouldn't have any negative effect in his early 30's. Plenty of players play a long time at a high level after 30 with this knee injury.
I know there is this narrative that you are the logical fan amongst a sea of homers, but you should probably educate yourself on what you are saying.
Finally we agree! :)
SUCCESS!!!
That would be so pathetic if he did. He seems like a guy who really cares about his perception and this would be a big hit.
I would agree but we have seen Durant be sensitive with the media and is he going to be able to handle hearing how he took the easy way out and joined a ready made team?
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In comment 13010030 nygiants16 said:
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If the Knicks are keeping rose they are just looking to add another piece
It's not like they wouldn't be able to
Not sure what kind of year Rose would have to have that I'd want him on the Knicks at 20+ mil a year for the next four years. I can't imagine what those knees are like when he's 30.
Just to explain Rose's knee injuries in plain terms for the average person to understand.
1. Tore his ACL. Plenty of guys come back from a torn ACL. These days, it shouldn't pose any long term effect, certainly not when he's 30 years old.
2. Tore the meniscus in his other knee. This meniscus tear was repaired and he made a 100% recovery. There will be no long term effects and it's not something that will hinder him in the future. Once repaired, assuming it heals properly, it's 100% back to normal.
3. Tore the same meniscus in a different spot. This is the only concerning long term knee injury, but it's not something that will hurt him too bad if he treats it. This time the meniscus was removed or shaved down. When it's cleaned up like this, it poses a long term threat because they are removing a part of his meniscus. If he keeps his legs strong and treats it well, it shouldn't have any negative effect in his early 30's. Plenty of players play a long time at a high level after 30 with this knee injury.
I know there is this narrative that you are the logical fan amongst a sea of homers, but you should probably educate yourself on what you are saying.
Please educate me more on how many players whose entire game was predicated on athleticism who had 3 major knee injuries and came back to what they were.
Add in players who miss as much time as Rose has.
While you're at it, please educate me on how players who reliable on their athleticism, especially PGs, tend to age.
Then cross section those groups and educate me on how you think Derrick Rose will age.
I'll be waiting!
Rose/Galloway
Crabbe/mayo
Melo/Lance
KP
Noah/koq/willy
He had an ACL in one knee. He took way too much time off to recover, but made a 100% recovery. Tons of players recover from that these days.
Then he had a meniscus repair which he made a 100% recovery. I'm guessing you aren't well educated with meniscus injuries, but when repaired(and they heal properly which his did), you make a full recovery. As good as new.
Why don't you instead of looking at the metrics go back and actually watch him play the last 3 months of the season..
You will see a guy shooting better and being more efficient, a guy who got to the rim and finished with ease, a guy who looked more explosive and still had that quick first step...
Because of a freak eye injury he didn't have a training camp and had blurred vision as the season went on he got better and better..
He had the same stats as Mike conley the guy who is guaranteed a max and is the best pg on the market
You seem to do this a lot. When backed into a corner, you change the discussion. I never said a word about how good or bad Rose is. I am however saying that his past knee injuries aren't something that would concern me from signing him until he's 30. You make it seem like he had microfracture or multiple ACL's to the same knee.
It's not reality, despite you saying it over and over and over and over and over again.
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In comment 13010041 Sgrcts said:
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In comment 13010030 nygiants16 said:
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If the Knicks are keeping rose they are just looking to add another piece
It's not like they wouldn't be able to
Not sure what kind of year Rose would have to have that I'd want him on the Knicks at 20+ mil a year for the next four years. I can't imagine what those knees are like when he's 30.
Just to explain Rose's knee injuries in plain terms for the average person to understand.
1. Tore his ACL. Plenty of guys come back from a torn ACL. These days, it shouldn't pose any long term effect, certainly not when he's 30 years old.
2. Tore the meniscus in his other knee. This meniscus tear was repaired and he made a 100% recovery. There will be no long term effects and it's not something that will hinder him in the future. Once repaired, assuming it heals properly, it's 100% back to normal.
3. Tore the same meniscus in a different spot. This is the only concerning long term knee injury, but it's not something that will hurt him too bad if he treats it. This time the meniscus was removed or shaved down. When it's cleaned up like this, it poses a long term threat because they are removing a part of his meniscus. If he keeps his legs strong and treats it well, it shouldn't have any negative effect in his early 30's. Plenty of players play a long time at a high level after 30 with this knee injury.
I know there is this narrative that you are the logical fan amongst a sea of homers, but you should probably educate yourself on what you are saying.
Please educate me more on how many players whose entire game was predicated on athleticism who had 3 major knee injuries and came back to what they were.
Add in players who miss as much time as Rose has.
While you're at it, please educate me on how players who reliable on their athleticism, especially PGs, tend to age.
Then cross section those groups and educate me on how you think Derrick Rose will age.
I'll be waiting!
Disregarding both the sample size for Rose's situation as well as advances in medical science over X number of years is dumb. He just gave you a breakdown of typical recovery for each type of injury after you yourself mentioned Rose's knees.
No one knows how Rose will cope. But defending a position you know nothing about is the height of idiocy.
Congrats on being a picture perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect though.
What that guy has done is extremely rare. He's had 3 ACL's to the same knee. He's an aberration. It's really amazing what that guy has come back from.
Exceptions and rules.
Domenik Hixon did too, and he retired at 28 or 29.
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Why don't you look at the metrics and how they graded Rose last year, and tell me why they are so wrong and he was such a good player?
Why don't you instead of looking at the metrics go back and actually watch him play the last 3 months of the season..
You will see a guy shooting better and being more efficient, a guy who got to the rim and finished with ease, a guy who looked more explosive and still had that quick first step...
Because of a freak eye injury he didn't have a training camp and had blurred vision as the season went on he got better and better..
He had the same stats as Mike conley the guy who is guaranteed a max and is the best pg on the market
He absolutely didn't have the same stats. Mike Conley was a 19.4 PER guy to Rose 13.5. Conley was a 2.86 RPM guy to Rose -4.27. They weren't even comparable as players. WS Conley 5.3/Rose .1, WS48 Conley .144 Rose .009 VORP Conley 1.7 Rose -1.7.
You can be for or against stats but if all the all in one metrics are THAT slanted, hard to argue with them.
Westbrook made a "full" and Rose has as well. Yes you lose part of the meniscus which doesn't grow back but you can play at 100% nonetheless.
Rose has lost as he said he's rhythm and conditioning after not playing as much the last few seasons but I expect that he will prove thats he's fully back or close to.
Ok I'll bite- how does trading for Rose help with the cap in terms of getting KD, especially since we now have to replace a favorable cost controlled deal for our starting C?
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Is the 4 or 5 of you, who may be Knick fans or not, constantly bashing Phil and every move he has made, and just adding KD "Is not coming here". Well guess what, you have a 31 out of 32 chance to be right. (It's not rocket science here folks). But the trade helps. Short term and long term and that you can't debate. If you understand the CAP and how it works . Yes Lopez had a cost controlled deal that was favorable but when you factor in (he will be replaced and he was a bottom 1/3 center in the NBA it's no big deal. You can't say NOW we have a shot. We didn't before and now we do. As a Knick fan we have hope. That's all we ask for. If you don't put yourself in the position to win, you can't. We can now. Time will tell. And the 4 or 5 of you (and you know who you are) can go F... Off!!!
Ok I'll bite- how does trading for Rose help with the cap in terms of getting KD, especially since we now have to replace a favorable cost controlled deal for our starting C?
Trading for Rose doesn't help with luring KD in terms of the cap, it helps by making the Knicks a more attractive destination. According to reports he had no interest in the Knicks unless that upgraded the PG position? They did that, and now supposedly the Knicks are on his radar. Robin Lopez is a solid NBA player, he's a slightly above average center, but he isn't the type of guy that is going to attract free agents. Whether you think he's a good player or not, Derrick Rose is a guy that gets people's attention, and he just so happens to be close friends with Kevin Durant, that's how he helps attract free agents.
In terms of the cap, it doesn't help this year, but moving Lopez absolutely helps going forward. Reasonably costed or not, at some point Lopez's contract was going to be a hindrance because he plays the same position that Porzingis projects to. I don't think they want him playing major minutes at center this year, but at some point, probably as early as 2017, that's where he is going to end up playing. At that point Lopez's contract isn't worth it to the team anymore because that money would be better used on another position. That's the best part about this trade, they get to take a flier on Rose and see if he returns to form while also making the team more attractive to Durant. If neither of those things workout then you let him walk next year and have money to spend on someone that doesn't play the same position as Porzingis.
lastly... Durant was at rucker park with 2 nets yesterday... i think he views Lopez, RHJ, and Bogs as a better chance to win then OKC.........
They had absolutely nothing at the guard position and decided to take a chance on rose to see if he can recapture what he once was, he showed some of it last year averaging 17 and 7 on 47% shooting to end the year...
If it works out they control a his bird rights and have a point guard for the next 5 or so years...
This trade gives them more flexibility to start over as well if it doesn't work out, if they Auckland next year or rose is terrible they can easily say ok we tried not going to work and they let rose go and trade melo and tank the next couple of years...
There were no game changing guards in free agency, rose has the chance to be that, they probably also felt they had a good shot at noah and still have room to bring in another max player or fill out the roster...this trade gave them more flexibility in there roster and how they can build it
lastly... Durant was at rucker park with 2 nets yesterday... i think he views Lopez, RHJ, and Bogs as a better chance to win then OKC.........
Well always liked you hotdogs, we just hated the nets in the playoffs and the knicks not so we took it out on you...
Lopez wasn't a bottom 1/3rd center last season. Simply untrue. He's not a star at his position, but he's easily a solid starter.
If knicks sign Noah and Crabbe and their offseason was rose noah and Crabbe, was it a good move?
You have to wait to see what the final roster looks like before you start freaking out how it was such a horrible move and the team is doomed
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In comment 13010437 Carl in CT said:
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Is the 4 or 5 of you, who may be Knick fans or not, constantly bashing Phil and every move he has made, and just adding KD "Is not coming here". Well guess what, you have a 31 out of 32 chance to be right. (It's not rocket science here folks). But the trade helps. Short term and long term and that you can't debate. If you understand the CAP and how it works . Yes Lopez had a cost controlled deal that was favorable but when you factor in (he will be replaced and he was a bottom 1/3 center in the NBA it's no big deal. You can't say NOW we have a shot. We didn't before and now we do. As a Knick fan we have hope. That's all we ask for. If you don't put yourself in the position to win, you can't. We can now. Time will tell. And the 4 or 5 of you (and you know who you are) can go F... Off!!!
Ok I'll bite- how does trading for Rose help with the cap in terms of getting KD, especially since we now have to replace a favorable cost controlled deal for our starting C?
Trading for Rose doesn't help with luring KD in terms of the cap, it helps by making the Knicks a more attractive destination. According to reports he had no interest in the Knicks unless that upgraded the PG position? They did that, and now supposedly the Knicks are on his radar. Robin Lopez is a solid NBA player, he's a slightly above average center, but he isn't the type of guy that is going to attract free agents. Whether you think he's a good player or not, Derrick Rose is a guy that gets people's attention, and he just so happens to be close friends with Kevin Durant, that's how he helps attract free agents.
In terms of the cap, it doesn't help this year, but moving Lopez absolutely helps going forward. Reasonably costed or not, at some point Lopez's contract was going to be a hindrance because he plays the same position that Porzingis projects to. I don't think they want him playing major minutes at center this year, but at some point, probably as early as 2017, that's where he is going to end up playing. At that point Lopez's contract isn't worth it to the team anymore because that money would be better used on another position. That's the best part about this trade, they get to take a flier on Rose and see if he returns to form while also making the team more attractive to Durant. If neither of those things workout then you let him walk next year and have money to spend on someone that doesn't play the same position as Porzingis.
you know what attracts free agents? Winning. And you build a winning team via smart roster decisions and not overpaying in trades.
Rose is 3 years older than Grant, there is a reason he slid in the draft, it's because people thought his ceiling was very low and there was not much more than what he was at right now...
If rose averages 17 and 8 on 45% shooting and knicks make the playoffs and win a round was the trade worth it?
So you would be comfortable saying after last year grant will be a starter in this league?
If knicks sign Noah and Crabbe and their offseason was rose noah and Crabbe, was it a good move?
You have to wait to see what the final roster looks like before you start freaking out how it was such a horrible move and the team is doomed
Even though I wasn't supporting the trade I agree with this. A part of the reason for my dislike for the trade was that it showed there was a clear misconception that this team can compete this year. But I had a feeling that was the case. I gotta wait for FA to happen to see how worth it this trade was. If we land Noah on a similar deal to Lopez's and a SG like Baze or Lee I think it's a win.
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to try to portray the trade as a no-lose situation is ridiculous. Grant wasnt very low ceiling and he didnt show nothing last year. Preposterous.
So you would be comfortable saying after last year grant will be a starter in this league?
Now that the Bulls are developing him? Most definetly.
Multiple people also reported Rambis would be head coach.
And then there's also the opportunity cost of overpaying for a mediocre PG on a max contract. Or the fact that the new hole that has been created fits in with what's available in FA.
If knicks sign Noah and Crabbe and their offseason was rose noah and Crabbe, was it a good move?
You have to wait to see what the final roster looks like before you start freaking out how it was such a horrible move and the team is doomed
Doesnt move the needle? A few years ago he was a 9.5 win player.
People really seem to think that if a player isnt a superstar, he's not terribly valuable. That's really nonsense. Robin Lopez is a really nice piece. IMO the most valuable piece moved in the Rose deal. Phil got fleeced a bit IMO. Not terribly because Rose is a lottery ticket, but he gave up a good, winning, starting C on a very good contract and a PG who could develop into a starter, for one year of a guy who hasnt been good in like 4 years.
ah yes, flexibility! Let's not ever try to build something. Let's constantly chase the next shiny new toy!
And yes - if the rest of the league places a certain value on a guy and Phil/Mills pay more than that - I'm going to call it an overpay.
If rose averages 17 and 8 on 45% shooting and knicks make the playoffs and win a round was the trade worth it?
A flawed approach can yield a favorable result. In this case, a good result might even be likely, at least in the short term. For those willing to overlook potential long term cap ramifications and opportunity costs, then this trade makes all kinds of sense! But for those that deal in economic and cap reality, it's a foolish use of assets.
Easy killer. A 4 year contract isn't a stop-gap. The Afflalo and DWill contracts - THOSE were stopgaps.
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to try to portray the trade as a no-lose situation is ridiculous. Grant wasnt very low ceiling and he didnt show nothing last year. Preposterous.
So you would be comfortable saying after last year grant will be a starter in this league?
Yes, I expect Grant to be a starter, or at least a good 3rd guard. As a rookie he got to the paint at will, showed good PG skills, and was a plus defender. His drawbacks were strength (almost always fixable) and shooting (which drastically improved post ASG).
What's interesting is your pivot. You said he showed nothing and had a very low ceiling, and when you got some push back you changed the standard to being a starter. Which goes to the other point I just made -- depth is important. Just because a guy isnt a star doesnt mean you dismiss his value.
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season. That doesn't change the fact that it's been reported by multiple people that there was no market for Rose and that other teams were expecting assets in return for taking him. And then there's the opportunity cost of what you could get for Lopez down the road. You could replace Lopez with prime Shaq - it doesn't mean you give Lopez away when you don't have to.
Multiple people also reported Rambis would be head coach.
anyone as plugged in as Wojo or KC Johnson (in Chicago)?
So don't give a mediocre PG a max deal? I know, it's a crazy thought. Forgive me if I think maybe it's ok to build slowly. After all, the likely future franchise player of this team is 20.
So again that is where my question stemmed from..
Also lopez does not move the needle in the sense that other star players are not going to come here because of lopez, Derrick rose is different and to maybe you and me he is not the same player but guys he is friends with around the league see it differently...
Lopez was a stop gap in the sense he was not the long term starter, he was an asset and the knicks used that asset to address their back court...
WTF? Even if that's true, that doesn't mean you give him a away. And of course, how is Rose not a stop gap?
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In comment 13010558 Enzo said:
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season. That doesn't change the fact that it's been reported by multiple people that there was no market for Rose and that other teams were expecting assets in return for taking him. And then there's the opportunity cost of what you could get for Lopez down the road. You could replace Lopez with prime Shaq - it doesn't mean you give Lopez away when you don't have to.
Multiple people also reported Rambis would be head coach.
anyone as plugged in as Wojo or KC Johnson (in Chicago)?
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And then there's also the opportunity cost of overpaying for a mediocre PG on a max contract. Or the fact that the new hole that has been created fits in with what's available in FA.
So don't give a mediocre PG a max deal? I know, it's a crazy thought. Forgive me if I think maybe it's ok to build slowly. After all, the likely future franchise player of this team is 20.
Building slowly doesn't change the fact that with arguably one of the best frontcourts in the league, the team still only won 32 games. Backcourt improvement was needed.
They could have stayed with Grant and seen what else he could offer in his second year, and then try to get a 2 as well. I would have no problem with that - it's what I expected.
The only real complaint about this trade is that they should have gotten a 1st rounder in return rather than a 2nd rounder. The "woe is me" attitude is a bit dramatic.
I've been with you in the past. The Knicks were notorious for being on the losing end of trades and trading from a position of weakness which forced them to constantly throw in players and picks. I fail to see how this fits into that same mold however. First off, we traded a serviceable and quite replaceable big man that Phil signed last year. It was a brilliant move by Jackson. In years past when we were going big game hunting, we would have saved the cap space. Phil bought a guy that fit in well and in turn bought a trade piece for the next season. Then we traded Grant who is a long ways from being a starting caliber PG, IMO. The salaries were a wash and Rose has 1 year on his deal. In years past, we would trade for long term problems. This is a 1 year tryout for an MVP caliber player on a team desperate for a PG. Sorry but you are way off base on this one.
Rose is an MVP caliber player? What color is the sky in your world? He hasn't been that guy in a long time. And of course everything else you said shows little understand of how the cap will impact salaries and what it's going to cost to potentially fill two giant holes. Oh, and we don't have any wings and there's zero bench.
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season. That doesn't change the fact that it's been reported by multiple people that there was no market for Rose and that other teams were expecting assets in return for taking him. And then there's the opportunity cost of what you could get for Lopez down the road. You could replace Lopez with prime Shaq - it doesn't mean you give Lopez away when you don't have to.
I've been with you in the past. The Knicks were notorious for being on the losing end of trades and trading from a position of weakness which forced them to constantly throw in players and picks. I fail to see how this fits into that same mold however.
it's easy - they overpaid compared to what the rest of the league felt was fair value for Rose. Pay attention.
are you going to get a guy as good as him on a contract that good? Let me know if/when that happens. Even if you can, you don't just give away Lopez.
whole lot of nonsense here. There's nothing brilliant about trading assets for a guy the other team is looking to dump.
It's amazing how some of you set the bar so low for this team.
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after Phil Jackson signed Lopez. Were you on board with the signing or were you mad at the contract because EVERYONE was screaming that it was a desperate overpay. I'd bet that you were not happy at the time. Well, he turned that and a middling young player into a 1 year tryout for an MVP caliber player. If it doesn't work out with Rose, there are a plethora of good PG's available next year. We also have a ton of money to replace Lopez who is easily replaceable.
Rose is an MVP caliber player? What color is the sky in your world? He hasn't been that guy in a long time. And of course everything else you said shows little understand of how the cap will impact salaries and what it's going to cost to potentially fill two giant holes. Oh, and we don't have any wings and there's zero bench.
There were giant holes to fill prior to the trade. Now one of the holes has shifted - to a position that has more of a market to fill it. Now, if filling it costs a significant amount more than Rolo's annual value, you have a point.
And we didn't have wings or a bench prior to the trade, so that's not really a viable argument.
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In comment 13010620 Keith said:
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after Phil Jackson signed Lopez. Were you on board with the signing or were you mad at the contract because EVERYONE was screaming that it was a desperate overpay. I'd bet that you were not happy at the time. Well, he turned that and a middling young player into a 1 year tryout for an MVP caliber player. If it doesn't work out with Rose, there are a plethora of good PG's available next year. We also have a ton of money to replace Lopez who is easily replaceable.
Rose is an MVP caliber player? What color is the sky in your world? He hasn't been that guy in a long time. And of course everything else you said shows little understand of how the cap will impact salaries and what it's going to cost to potentially fill two giant holes. Oh, and we don't have any wings and there's zero bench.
There were giant holes to fill prior to the trade. Now one of the holes has shifted - to a position that has more of a market to fill it. Now, if filling it costs a significant amount more than Rolo's annual value, you have a point.
And we didn't have wings or a bench prior to the trade, so that's not really a viable argument.
sorry but I don't consider one year of an injury prone player a solution to the PG hole. It's a very risky stop gap. And I'm more scared of what happens if he has a good year and we pay him next summer than the alternative. And his injury history means you have to make certain you have a quality backup - which isn't going to come cheap as well. Saying they just exchanged one "hole" for "another" is a huge reach.
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after Phil Jackson signed Lopez. Were you on board with the signing or were you mad at the contract because EVERYONE was screaming that it was a desperate overpay. I'd bet that you were not happy at the time. Well, he turned that and a middling young player into a 1 year tryout for an MVP caliber player. If it doesn't work out with Rose, there are a plethora of good PG's available next year. We also have a ton of money to replace Lopez who is easily replaceable.
Rose is an MVP caliber player? What color is the sky in your world? He hasn't been that guy in a long time. And of course everything else you said shows little understand of how the cap will impact salaries and what it's going to cost to potentially fill two giant holes. Oh, and we don't have any wings and there's zero bench.
I have a very good understanding of it and we've discussed it in the past many times. We also didn't have a bench or wings before the trade so I fail to see how this trade effected that.
Answer my question. What were your thoughts about the Lopez signing? I'm guessing you bashed it like every other move(rightfully so on the other moves) because of our history. Yes or no? Phil signed a guy, Lopez, knowing that he could be a piece for the future. Lopez is quite replaceable. He's a league average center that doesn't excel in any aspect of the game. It's really not nearly as big of a deal as you are making it seem. Especially since its June and we will replace him.
I understand the doom and gloom. You have been bashing the front office for years(again, rightfully so), but you are so far off base on this one. It was a low risk, high reward trade and there is nothing you've said to change that. We didn't throw in picks or anything. We traded almost little of value for Rose.