I don't know enough about pro football to know whether the game passed him by, or whether he adjusted to the new rules about contact in practices, or any of the other specific things that people point to. They may all be valid, none may be.
However the team had three losing seasons in a row, led the league in injuries three years in a row, and had historically bad defenses. Even in the stretch that included two championships, their only really dominant year was 2008, and that season fizzled out at the end. His two playoff runs were wonderful and incredibly satisfying but the team was never consistently excellent during his tenure.
The championships bought him more time, and deservedly so, but he didn't perform in a performance business.
He got plenty of chances, too.
If I were TC I'd be pissed that they sat on all that cap room his final year instead of signing some guys who could help win games. But honestly, the most telling thing was probably all the injuries. Three years in a row says somebody was doing something wrong. It's up to the HC to spot that and fix it. They didn't. I know he tried, but he failed. Time to shake things up.
They didn't 'sit' on the cap room. There were plenty of guys including Eli that were due to get extensions. WE've been mostly up against the cap for the majority of Coughlin's tenure.
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
time will tell if McAdoo was the right replacement. but it was time to move on from tom. the team needed a new voice, new energy and a new way of doing things.
Coach Coughlin's loyalty to his coaches and favored veteran players led to his demise. Last season alone he chose to retain or bring in aging veterans rather than give young talent a chance, only to have them fail miserably. Ultimately as the HC he had the final say on the makeup of his roster. Keeping players like Parker over Washington only to have to cut him after contributing to 3 losses shows error in judgement.
Going out and bringing slow over the hill safeties rather than playing youngsters on the roster he chose was counter productive giving a message of no confidence. It begs the question why they were on the roster in the first place. His late game management screamed of a tired mind, who had lost the drive. It doesn't matter what a person says performance is always the truest indicator.
Many on this forum question whether HC McAdoo will succeed, I for one will tell you given his roots and background he will accept nothing less. I've witnessed that character and personality before, from players of the same region named Marino and Kelly. Coach McAdoo has a stern confidence, deflecting doubts, while instilling his outlook which is positive and determined.
This summer we will witness the formation of a roster that will be based solely on performance. I believe the final outcome will be a younger driven, determined team with an aggressive attitude.
I will always be grateful to Coach Coughlin for leading the Giants to 2 Super Bowl victories. Now I look to the future with anticipation because I believe we now have our counterpart to the coach who got away. I speak of Belichick,
whom we were deprived of by another coaching icon in franchise history. Though still to be determined I see coach McAdoo offensively compatible to coach Belichick defensive genius.
And I loved coach Coughlin. A great, inspirational leader of men.
If you had asked me before last season I would of said no, he can coach until he decides to hang up the whistle. But it seems his message had started to fall on deaf ears. I think the fact they had that study on millenials and tried to adjust their approach to cater to the younger players showed there was a disconnect. Also, some questionable decisions this year that left you shaking your head made it feel like the time was right for a change.
Whoever the new coach was had some big shoes to fill. I think it made sense to stay in house and maybe just tweak the system instead of blowing it up. I've liked what I've heard out of McAdoo so far and would be extremely happy if he accomplishes even half of what Coughlin did.
Tom is my favorite, even over the Tuna.
It seems the Giants have had plan in mind...
-Moving to a WCO.
-We have a once-in-a-franchise QB, and he's had/has a lot of coaching continuity.
-Free agency and the Draft show a design JR has been planning, this off-season wasn't random opportunity.
-"Time to make a change?" that was decided by our playoff absences, but but still in line with a larger strategy.
How many times does this discussion need to happen?
The time to change was the year after the last SB win.
TC was loyal to a fault to his aging OL and other favorites and of course his you have to have a balance between run and pass Offensive philosophy and you have to stop the run first Defensive philosophy became antiquated quickly in the face of the rule changes favoring the pass game.
Congrats coach and thanks for winning the Lombardi
Great coach, one of the best ever, but he was losing his edge. Late game time management, not getting challenge flags out, but what did it for me was how he handled (or did not handle) the OBJ meltdown.
I agree with this completely. I also agree that the change in the practice rules, lack of contact, negatively effected the way TC coached over the last few years.
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
I'd like to know which of my points are myths. Not being defensive, I really want to know.
Only ONE season - 2008, ended with better than a 3-3 record - EVERY SINGLE other season, the Giants crashed at the end - burned some years, but remarkably, 2007 and 2011 bounced back ridiculously strong in the playoffs.
His teams had the highest highs and lowest lows of any I followed in any sport - it was an absolutely WILD roller-coaster featuring many come-from-behind, mind-blowing 4th quarter wins, some stretches of absolute Giant GREATNESS where they could play with the best of the best, but also littered with the wrecks of inexplicable blowouts to some shitty, shitty teams.
Coughlin's teams always seemed to be on the edge of the cliff - but those last few years, it simply became too much. The timing was perfect - he really should have been gone a year earlier, but the classy thing to do was give him one last chance.
I read this post, which seems to point to TC's age being a factor:
"can't remember where I heard it
djm : 12:44 pm : link : reply
but it was a simple and great point on Coughlin and his age. The point was no one cares how old the HC is when the team is winning but when the team is losing, the HC is on notice.
Right or wrong that's just how the world works. When you're older your not going to be afforded the same length of rope that a younger man or woman would be given. Coughlin needed to show improvement last year in the standings. The team was better than 2014 but the record was not. That's as good a reason as any to move on."
there's no reason to bring age into it. winning is what matters. TC had plenty of years and the arrow was going in the wrong direction. age had nothing to do with his length of rope. other than that, we agree. 2 rings had a lot to do with the fairly long length of rope, and I doubt we disagree on that.
But only to take the pressure off the organization for, essentially , it's own failures, and the court of public perception.
Now if JR was going to pull off the offseason player acquisition he did; and/or if he had done this in 2010-2014, TC would still be here and there may well have been at least 1 more SB appearance, and win.
I know the cap, and Eli's big hit on it in those 'dry years', somewhat tied JRs hands, but a) they could have drafted better(I think most BBI agree), b) worked out a cap-friendlier long term contract w/ Eli that started paying him HUGE about NOW, and dry years may well not have been such.
Very difficult to say up or down with Coach Coughlin...
...because the Giants roster from 1 to 53 was near the bottom of NFL over last 3 seasons due to bad injuries; bad drafts; bad/mediocre free agents and bad luck (not to mention being in salary cap hell.)
Now, if it could be shown that our former Coach had a major hand in constructing that roster... well, maybe then it was time for him to go.
And I will say that it was 2 years overdue. Coughlin era had run its course. Job security made the coaching staff too complacent. Players drafted after the second round were not coached up. Major injuries every year with no change to the status quo. This change is welcome.
I was never of the opinion that TC is incapable of winning in the NFL again. If things work out under McAdoo that would be great. However, if they fizzle out under Eli's last years, then I will always wonder what would have happened if they had just kept Coughlin for 2-3 more years.
Coughlin was kind of an enigma. There were years the team underachieved based on the talent level and other years they overachieved. Then there's all of the second half of the season collapses during his tenure.
I think last year was one of his best coaching jobs based on the lack of talent on the roster. He put the team in a position to be 10-6 if someone stepped up and made a play late in several games.
Ultimately, it was probably time to make a change, but I think Coughlin and the Giants would do ok this year with the roster upgrades.
The mismanagement of the clock and play calling at the end of games and going for it on 4th down rather than kick a field goal costing the team wins all come back to the head coach. I appreciate all he did for us over the years. He has been one of the two best coaches we've had in my years of watching the Giants. But it was time to move on.
Too many injury's didn't help . I have no real complaint's
we were luck to have him .
It was time for a change I am not sure how TC would have faired with the current team Let's hope Mac can get them
to play as hard as TC had last years talent play .
No doubt in my mind this team can't get to the playoffs
I expect nothing less .
2016 Coughlin replaced resigns fired whatever gone.
2015 His DC replaced losing record
2014 His OC replaced losing record
2013 losing record Team falls off a cliff
2012 no playoffs for a team coming off a Superbowl
2011 Wins Superbowl 2nd time with team over achievers
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
Not sure if serious on Fewell comment.
He is not serious. All his comments in this thread are pure mockery
Yes only because of optics. Tom had a shitty team the past few years, and he's the scapegoat--for better or worse. There was no way that the Giants could post three straight losing seasons and not make a change.
But if he had more talent--and this year, we are looking at more talent--probably not. No.
teams of the past few years. assistants can only work with what you give them and no sane person can argue they had nfl quality talent.
he had a good run. but was probably time to go in a different direction. Two biggest issues - some of the game management decisions seemed a bit puzzling. Particularly the OBJ debacle against the Panthers. No way the old TC lets that shit go that far. Additionally, he probably needed to get out of the way so McAdoo could insert his system without any interference.
I'm sure you would have given him a 5 year extension based on the team's amazing year out performing the talent on the roster.
However the team had three losing seasons in a row, led the league in injuries three years in a row, and had historically bad defenses. Even in the stretch that included two championships, their only really dominant year was 2008, and that season fizzled out at the end. His two playoff runs were wonderful and incredibly satisfying but the team was never consistently excellent during his tenure.
The championships bought him more time, and deservedly so, but he didn't perform in a performance business.
He got plenty of chances, too.
If I were TC I'd be pissed that they sat on all that cap room his final year instead of signing some guys who could help win games. But honestly, the most telling thing was probably all the injuries. Three years in a row says somebody was doing something wrong. It's up to the HC to spot that and fix it. They didn't. I know he tried, but he failed. Time to shake things up.
They didn't 'sit' on the cap room. There were plenty of guys including Eli that were due to get extensions. WE've been mostly up against the cap for the majority of Coughlin's tenure.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
Quote:
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
Not sure if serious on Fewell comment.
Going out and bringing slow over the hill safeties rather than playing youngsters on the roster he chose was counter productive giving a message of no confidence. It begs the question why they were on the roster in the first place. His late game management screamed of a tired mind, who had lost the drive. It doesn't matter what a person says performance is always the truest indicator.
Many on this forum question whether HC McAdoo will succeed, I for one will tell you given his roots and background he will accept nothing less. I've witnessed that character and personality before, from players of the same region named Marino and Kelly. Coach McAdoo has a stern confidence, deflecting doubts, while instilling his outlook which is positive and determined.
This summer we will witness the formation of a roster that will be based solely on performance. I believe the final outcome will be a younger driven, determined team with an aggressive attitude.
I will always be grateful to Coach Coughlin for leading the Giants to 2 Super Bowl victories. Now I look to the future with anticipation because I believe we now have our counterpart to the coach who got away. I speak of Belichick,
whom we were deprived of by another coaching icon in franchise history. Though still to be determined I see coach McAdoo offensively compatible to coach Belichick defensive genius.
If you had asked me before last season I would of said no, he can coach until he decides to hang up the whistle. But it seems his message had started to fall on deaf ears. I think the fact they had that study on millenials and tried to adjust their approach to cater to the younger players showed there was a disconnect. Also, some questionable decisions this year that left you shaking your head made it feel like the time was right for a change.
Whoever the new coach was had some big shoes to fill. I think it made sense to stay in house and maybe just tweak the system instead of blowing it up. I've liked what I've heard out of McAdoo so far and would be extremely happy if he accomplishes even half of what Coughlin did.
It seems the Giants have had plan in mind...
-Moving to a WCO.
-We have a once-in-a-franchise QB, and he's had/has a lot of coaching continuity.
-Free agency and the Draft show a design JR has been planning, this off-season wasn't random opportunity.
-"Time to make a change?" that was decided by our playoff absences, but but still in line with a larger strategy.
TC was loyal to a fault to his aging OL and other favorites and of course his you have to have a balance between run and pass Offensive philosophy and you have to stop the run first Defensive philosophy became antiquated quickly in the face of the rule changes favoring the pass game.
I agree with this completely. I also agree that the change in the practice rules, lack of contact, negatively effected the way TC coached over the last few years.
Quote:
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
I'd like to know which of my points are myths. Not being defensive, I really want to know.
His teams had the highest highs and lowest lows of any I followed in any sport - it was an absolutely WILD roller-coaster featuring many come-from-behind, mind-blowing 4th quarter wins, some stretches of absolute Giant GREATNESS where they could play with the best of the best, but also littered with the wrecks of inexplicable blowouts to some shitty, shitty teams.
Coughlin's teams always seemed to be on the edge of the cliff - but those last few years, it simply became too much. The timing was perfect - he really should have been gone a year earlier, but the classy thing to do was give him one last chance.
Personally, I'm thrilled with the changes.
Critics say 8-8 poop expectations at best.
BBI is pessimistic.
Important player John Doe lost in preseason.
Start 5-1 against some good, some suspect competition. WOW!
Climb to the top of all the expert rankings.
BBI is HAPPY.
Crash.. bad losses to weak teams.
INJURIES.
BYE
BBI is ready for mass Hari-Kari
Get a few wins to win back the faith.
Close badly, 2-4. MORE injuries.
Make playoffs? 50-50 - either one-and-done OR
SUPER BOWL CHAMPS!!!
"can't remember where I heard it
djm : 12:44 pm : link : reply
but it was a simple and great point on Coughlin and his age. The point was no one cares how old the HC is when the team is winning but when the team is losing, the HC is on notice.
Right or wrong that's just how the world works. When you're older your not going to be afforded the same length of rope that a younger man or woman would be given. Coughlin needed to show improvement last year in the standings. The team was better than 2014 but the record was not. That's as good a reason as any to move on."
there's no reason to bring age into it. winning is what matters. TC had plenty of years and the arrow was going in the wrong direction. age had nothing to do with his length of rope. other than that, we agree. 2 rings had a lot to do with the fairly long length of rope, and I doubt we disagree on that.
He stood around, glassy eyed, as the whole coaching staff (and EliManning) argued what to do at end of the game.
Coughlin joins elite company of HOF coaches who have gotten the ax - Brown, Landry, Madden, Noll, Shula.
Now if JR was going to pull off the offseason player acquisition he did; and/or if he had done this in 2010-2014, TC would still be here and there may well have been at least 1 more SB appearance, and win.
I know the cap, and Eli's big hit on it in those 'dry years', somewhat tied JRs hands, but a) they could have drafted better(I think most BBI agree), b) worked out a cap-friendlier long term contract w/ Eli that started paying him HUGE about NOW, and dry years may well not have been such.
...because the Giants roster from 1 to 53 was near the bottom of NFL over last 3 seasons due to bad injuries; bad drafts; bad/mediocre free agents and bad luck (not to mention being in salary cap hell.)
Now, if it could be shown that our former Coach had a major hand in constructing that roster... well, maybe then it was time for him to go.
for AP
In the end, it's the results that matter. 6-10 and the worst defense in the world. Time for a change.
***midway through season*** during the adjustment period with Mac
I think last year was one of his best coaching jobs based on the lack of talent on the roster. He put the team in a position to be 10-6 if someone stepped up and made a play late in several games.
Ultimately, it was probably time to make a change, but I think Coughlin and the Giants would do ok this year with the roster upgrades.
a lot to do with. Mcadoo may not be answer but
its a start.
we were luck to have him .
It was time for a change I am not sure how TC would have faired with the current team Let's hope Mac can get them
to play as hard as TC had last years talent play .
No doubt in my mind this team can't get to the playoffs
I expect nothing less .
2015 His DC replaced losing record
2014 His OC replaced losing record
2013 losing record Team falls off a cliff
2012 no playoffs for a team coming off a Superbowl
2011 Wins Superbowl 2nd time with team over achievers
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times.
Are you intentionally being ironic, or do you not see yourself doing the same thing on the other side of the conversation?
Quote:
In comment 13011361 Torn Tendon said:
Quote:
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
Not sure if serious on Fewell comment.
He is not serious. All his comments in this thread are pure mockery
But if he had more talent--and this year, we are looking at more talent--probably not. No.
I love TC.
Nice thread...
Various signs were there if you are open to seeing them. Cumulatively they required ownership to make the decision to have Tom step down.
Now was Mcadoo the right hire? I have no idea. Nor does anyone else until we see him at the helm under fire.
Enough said. Terrible at picking them. Terrible at cutting losses and moving on. This is a business, not a family.
he had a good run. but was probably time to go in a different direction. Two biggest issues - some of the game management decisions seemed a bit puzzling. Particularly the OBJ debacle against the Panthers. No way the old TC lets that shit go that far. Additionally, he probably needed to get out of the way so McAdoo could insert his system without any interference.