Okay -- I'll start this going. I loved Tom Coughlin. I think he was, if not Parcells equal, the best Giants Head Coach in my lifetime. But it certainly is appearing more and more that it was time to make a change. McAdoo appears to blowing a lot of fresh air into the Giants, and he appears to be going about it in the right way. I love the way the team is shaping up right now and I can;t wait for the season to begin.
It was time. Granted, he was dealing with a weak roster, but the struggles within the division as weak as it has been despite being the only team with a dependable QB was the tipping point for me.
If the Giants brass truly believed in McAdoo (which it appears they did), then yes. It was time. Nothing against TC, he had a great run here. But everything runs its course. I think this team needed to be rejuvenated and sometimes it is just time for a change.
staying in house was good. TC was a great coach and a good man. However, IMO, TC never really adapted to the new CBA and the practice limitations on contact.
Too many of the same things (cough, injuries, cough) that never changed. The teams were getting less and less disciplined. Seven of the last eight years without a playoff appearance? That is unacceptable.
Great coach, one of the best ever, but he was losing his edge. Late game time management, not getting challenge flags out, but what did it for me was how he handled (or did not handle) the OBJ meltdown.
they eased the transition, forcing one after another assistant coach change. that says they weren't happy with the overall ability of TC to assemble staff, but that the situation wasn't catastrophic enough to do a complete overhaul.
There isn't a doubt in my mind that TC was heavily involved in player acquisition choices, which he should be, being a borderline HOF coach with 2 HC rings on his finger. Player acquisition was steadily going downhill.
If I were at the reins, I'd have done it a year or two sooner.
that aside, the header sounds like TC was asking of Mac, 'was it time?'
1) The Giants should have kept both Coughlin & Reese (reasons would be if McAdoo is an epic fail in spite of a healthier and better roster) or
2) The Giants should have let both Coughlin & Reese go (if coaching is outstanding and the roster fails the Giants again) or
3) The Giants should have let Coughlin go and kept Reese (if coaching, particularly game day decision making, is much improved and the drafts from 2014, 2015 and 2016 all look very good to excellent)
esp not wanting to go up by ten with less than 2 minutes left. That was a big sign that it was time for a change. It happened all season long. Love Tom as a coach but I feel its time for him to retire.
The game kind of passed TC by and he didn't adapt. He had to be forced to make changes to his staff because he had little objectivity and was too proud to admit mistakes.
And lately there had been too many inexplicable on-field blunders.
He had a good run for a HC. Very few have been around longer in one job during his tenure. Marvin Lewis and Bill Belichick?
one could speculate that this team as built would be just as likely to win this season with Coughlin as it would be with McAdoo, maybe even more likely. But with that said, yes it was time for a change.
It wasn't just the losing. As much as it annoys the hell out of me Coughlin's age was always going to be a point of debate and the Giants were wise to put that crap behind them. Even if they didn't care about his age, the media and fans did.
I wanted the Giants to give Coughlin every chance possible to turn things around but as much as I love the guy he didn't have his best season in 2015. It was time. Coughlin had his run. It's McAdoo's time now.
but it was a simple and great point on Coughlin and his age. The point was no one cares how old the HC is when the team is winning but when the team is losing, the HC is on notice.
Right or wrong that's just how the world works. When you're older your not going to be afforded the same length of rope that a younger man or woman would be given. Coughlin needed to show improvement last year in the standings. The team was better than 2014 but the record was not. That's as good a reason as any to move on.
4 straight years out of the playoffs and some truly terrible overall play and game management issues arising the past few seasons. Great coach, but "change" is the right word, sometimes change is good.
one could speculate that this team as built would be just as likely to win this season with Coughlin as it would be with McAdoo, maybe even more likely.
Not really, because Coughlin wouldn't've agreed to fire the strength coach and all those position coaches. Coughlin must've set some kind of record for being forced to fire coaches during his time with the Giants. At some point it needed to be his head that rolled and after three losing seasons in a row, he had run out of excuses.
Missing playoffs way too frequently and you could see he started second guessing himself lately. Hopefully he gave McAdoo a good view of how I'd things so we don't have too much learning curve from him to deal with.
Question isn't was it time - it's did we pick the right guy.
it had been too long since our last playoff appearance, with no sign of improvement. That's not entirely on TC, but you start with the HC and make changes from there. 12 years is an extremely long run, and when you add in his age, it was obvious that it was time to make a switch.
The only questions that remain - are broad sweeping changes to the personnel department also needed, and did we hire the right coach? The former is difficult to answer just yet, because you can rest assured that TC had tremendous influence over personnel so you don't know how much blame to allocate their way just yet. They are on borrowed time now, though. Will BM prove to be a capable coach? Only time will tell there too.
The constant struggles against division opponents especially the Eagles is what has hurt us the most. I love what seems to be a refreshing take on coaching. I hope it translates to more wins. I do not think we have lost a ton of the qualities Coughlin had. I do not feel MacAdoo is a players coach, but only time will tell.
coughlin was afforded a LOT of rope. had nothing to do with age. the guy simply was not getting results. When you have a borderline HOF QB in his prime, and you can't make the playoffs, you usually don't get much leeway. But TC got more and more chances, based on past performance. finally, that leeway ran out of chances.
Planning the succession was a top priority, and McAdoo seemed to be the best successor for a lot of reasons. If Coughlin had stayed, McAdoo would likely go elsewhere, and the next 5-10 years are more important than next season. (Plus, even with the injuries and the thin talent, 19 wins in the past 3 seasons just wasn't enough.)
TC opening statement: injuries are a cancer
BM early changes: strength and conditioning department
We saw Tom change over the years, but if that was part of his mission statement, he failed in that aspect. I would have liked to have seen him in the front office somewhere, but understand that would be weird on all fronts.
... because I think we absolutely needed to change the strength and conditioning program/coaches as well as some of the assistant coaches. That would never happen with TC at the helm. I do still (and always will) think it sucks to think about the roster he was given his last couple of years.
staying in house was good. TC was a great coach and a good man. However, IMO, TC never really adapted to the new CBA and the practice limitations on contact.
+1. Coughlin was also losing his fastball with in-game decisions, an area he was once typically always spot on
one could speculate that this team as built would be just as likely to win this season with Coughlin as it would be with McAdoo, maybe even more likely.
Not really, because Coughlin wouldn't've agreed to fire the strength coach and all those position coaches. Coughlin must've set some kind of record for being forced to fire coaches during his time with the Giants. At some point it needed to be his head that rolled and after three losing seasons in a row, he had run out of excuses.
I am not of the belief that the strength coaches make much of a difference especially in the wins and losses but I don't blame the Giants for making changes there.
My post stated that it was time for Coughlin to go. But cmon you can't guarantee me that Coughlin COULDN'T win with this roster. No one can.
coughlin was afforded a LOT of rope. had nothing to do with age. the guy simply was not getting results. When you have a borderline HOF QB in his prime, and you can't make the playoffs, you usually don't get much leeway. But TC got more and more chances, based on past performance. finally, that leeway ran out of chances.
Again, did people read my posts? I said Coughlin got every chance to win here lately. Where did I say otherwise.
I think the Giants did right by Coughlin. They gave him one or maybe even two more years when many wanted him gone.
when I said I wanted Coughlin to be afforded every opportunity to win I meant from 2012-2015. I didn't want him fired back then. ONce they lost to the Jets I was done with him.
TC was a great coach and deserves to be in Canton. I liked 90% of everything he did for our team.
Tom's shortcomings were very obvious last season and they cost the team a few games. Very bad in game and especially end of game clock management and play selection. I really think this is due to his age more than anything else.
I have no doubt that TC would do better this year with the new infusion of talent but it was time for TC to retire.
you could just as easily say that Coughlin had the team well prepared to play last season even with the roster limitations. With that said he may have almost been a victim of his own success. The team was ready to play but the problem was they weren't ready to win.
Nearly everyone picked the Giants to be downright terrible last season. Coughlin had the Giants in nearly every game. Despite the prognosticators the Giants were competitive week in week out. But they couldn't close. Most of those close losses reflected badly on Coughlin but it's fair to speculate that another coach would have done a shittier job last year. Don't tell me that's a stretch. I've seen coaches with more talent at their disposal do far worse.
The close losses added up and doomed Coughlin. But it's possible that another HC doesn't get as much out of last year's team. I still feel that a new fresh voice and outlook were needed here. Giants needed a long term guy.
one could speculate that this team as built would be just as likely to win this season with Coughlin as it would be with McAdoo, maybe even more likely.
Not really, because Coughlin wouldn't've agreed to fire the strength coach and all those position coaches. Coughlin must've set some kind of record for being forced to fire coaches during his time with the Giants. At some point it needed to be his head that rolled and after three losing seasons in a row, he had run out of excuses.
I don't know enough about pro football to know whether the game passed him by, or whether he adjusted to the new rules about contact in practices, or any of the other specific things that people point to. They may all be valid, none may be.
However the team had three losing seasons in a row, led the league in injuries three years in a row, and had historically bad defenses. Even in the stretch that included two championships, their only really dominant year was 2008, and that season fizzled out at the end. His two playoff runs were wonderful and incredibly satisfying but the team was never consistently excellent during his tenure.
The championships bought him more time, and deservedly so, but he didn't perform in a performance business.
He got plenty of chances, too.
If I were TC I'd be pissed that they sat on all that cap room his final year instead of signing some guys who could help win games. But honestly, the most telling thing was probably all the injuries. Three years in a row says somebody was doing something wrong. It's up to the HC to spot that and fix it. They didn't. I know he tried, but he failed. Time to shake things up.
I don't know enough about pro football to know whether the game passed him by, or whether he adjusted to the new rules about contact in practices, or any of the other specific things that people point to. They may all be valid, none may be.
However the team had three losing seasons in a row, led the league in injuries three years in a row, and had historically bad defenses. Even in the stretch that included two championships, their only really dominant year was 2008, and that season fizzled out at the end. His two playoff runs were wonderful and incredibly satisfying but the team was never consistently excellent during his tenure.
The championships bought him more time, and deservedly so, but he didn't perform in a performance business.
He got plenty of chances, too.
If I were TC I'd be pissed that they sat on all that cap room his final year instead of signing some guys who could help win games. But honestly, the most telling thing was probably all the injuries. Three years in a row says somebody was doing something wrong. It's up to the HC to spot that and fix it. They didn't. I know he tried, but he failed. Time to shake things up.
They didn't 'sit' on the cap room. There were plenty of guys including Eli that were due to get extensions. WE've been mostly up against the cap for the majority of Coughlin's tenure.
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
That said, Mcadoo could be the next great coach however we all know how it went after the last 2 time Super Bowl winning coach left.
There isn't a doubt in my mind that TC was heavily involved in player acquisition choices, which he should be, being a borderline HOF coach with 2 HC rings on his finger. Player acquisition was steadily going downhill.
If I were at the reins, I'd have done it a year or two sooner.
that aside, the header sounds like TC was asking of Mac, 'was it time?'
2) The Giants should have let both Coughlin & Reese go (if coaching is outstanding and the roster fails the Giants again) or
3) The Giants should have let Coughlin go and kept Reese (if coaching, particularly game day decision making, is much improved and the drafts from 2014, 2015 and 2016 all look very good to excellent)
I agree with this
And lately there had been too many inexplicable on-field blunders.
He had a good run for a HC. Very few have been around longer in one job during his tenure. Marvin Lewis and Bill Belichick?
It wasn't just the losing. As much as it annoys the hell out of me Coughlin's age was always going to be a point of debate and the Giants were wise to put that crap behind them. Even if they didn't care about his age, the media and fans did.
I wanted the Giants to give Coughlin every chance possible to turn things around but as much as I love the guy he didn't have his best season in 2015. It was time. Coughlin had his run. It's McAdoo's time now.
Right or wrong that's just how the world works. When you're older your not going to be afforded the same length of rope that a younger man or woman would be given. Coughlin needed to show improvement last year in the standings. The team was better than 2014 but the record was not. That's as good a reason as any to move on.
The only questions that remain - are broad sweeping changes to the personnel department also needed, and did we hire the right coach? The former is difficult to answer just yet, because you can rest assured that TC had tremendous influence over personnel so you don't know how much blame to allocate their way just yet. They are on borrowed time now, though. Will BM prove to be a capable coach? Only time will tell there too.
BM early changes: strength and conditioning department
We saw Tom change over the years, but if that was part of his mission statement, he failed in that aspect. I would have liked to have seen him in the front office somewhere, but understand that would be weird on all fronts.
+1. Coughlin was also losing his fastball with in-game decisions, an area he was once typically always spot on
Quote:
one could speculate that this team as built would be just as likely to win this season with Coughlin as it would be with McAdoo, maybe even more likely.
Not really, because Coughlin wouldn't've agreed to fire the strength coach and all those position coaches. Coughlin must've set some kind of record for being forced to fire coaches during his time with the Giants. At some point it needed to be his head that rolled and after three losing seasons in a row, he had run out of excuses.
I am not of the belief that the strength coaches make much of a difference especially in the wins and losses but I don't blame the Giants for making changes there.
My post stated that it was time for Coughlin to go. But cmon you can't guarantee me that Coughlin COULDN'T win with this roster. No one can.
Again, did people read my posts? I said Coughlin got every chance to win here lately. Where did I say otherwise.
I think the Giants did right by Coughlin. They gave him one or maybe even two more years when many wanted him gone.
ONe more time...IT WAS TIME FOR A CHANGE.
Tom's shortcomings were very obvious last season and they cost the team a few games. Very bad in game and especially end of game clock management and play selection. I really think this is due to his age more than anything else.
I have no doubt that TC would do better this year with the new infusion of talent but it was time for TC to retire.
Nearly everyone picked the Giants to be downright terrible last season. Coughlin had the Giants in nearly every game. Despite the prognosticators the Giants were competitive week in week out. But they couldn't close. Most of those close losses reflected badly on Coughlin but it's fair to speculate that another coach would have done a shittier job last year. Don't tell me that's a stretch. I've seen coaches with more talent at their disposal do far worse.
The close losses added up and doomed Coughlin. But it's possible that another HC doesn't get as much out of last year's team. I still feel that a new fresh voice and outlook were needed here. Giants needed a long term guy.
Quote:
one could speculate that this team as built would be just as likely to win this season with Coughlin as it would be with McAdoo, maybe even more likely.
Not really, because Coughlin wouldn't've agreed to fire the strength coach and all those position coaches. Coughlin must've set some kind of record for being forced to fire coaches during his time with the Giants. At some point it needed to be his head that rolled and after three losing seasons in a row, he had run out of excuses.
This 100%.
However the team had three losing seasons in a row, led the league in injuries three years in a row, and had historically bad defenses. Even in the stretch that included two championships, their only really dominant year was 2008, and that season fizzled out at the end. His two playoff runs were wonderful and incredibly satisfying but the team was never consistently excellent during his tenure.
The championships bought him more time, and deservedly so, but he didn't perform in a performance business.
He got plenty of chances, too.
If I were TC I'd be pissed that they sat on all that cap room his final year instead of signing some guys who could help win games. But honestly, the most telling thing was probably all the injuries. Three years in a row says somebody was doing something wrong. It's up to the HC to spot that and fix it. They didn't. I know he tried, but he failed. Time to shake things up.
I'm sure you would have given him a 5 year extension based on the team's amazing year out performing the talent on the roster.
However the team had three losing seasons in a row, led the league in injuries three years in a row, and had historically bad defenses. Even in the stretch that included two championships, their only really dominant year was 2008, and that season fizzled out at the end. His two playoff runs were wonderful and incredibly satisfying but the team was never consistently excellent during his tenure.
The championships bought him more time, and deservedly so, but he didn't perform in a performance business.
He got plenty of chances, too.
If I were TC I'd be pissed that they sat on all that cap room his final year instead of signing some guys who could help win games. But honestly, the most telling thing was probably all the injuries. Three years in a row says somebody was doing something wrong. It's up to the HC to spot that and fix it. They didn't. I know he tried, but he failed. Time to shake things up.
They didn't 'sit' on the cap room. There were plenty of guys including Eli that were due to get extensions. WE've been mostly up against the cap for the majority of Coughlin's tenure.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
Quote:
Coaching: I don't think he and his staff adapted to the CBA changes. Seems like there was too much "We do it that way because that's the way we've always done it" thinking.
Personnel: I think he's the reason why the team hung onto aging vets like Diehl and Snee a couple years too long. Also believe that he had final say on players drafted/not drafted.
Hanging onto coaches for too long. Gilbride's system was too complicated. With the CBA reducing practice time, it made Gilbride's system impractical. The years that it took to WR's and QB to learn the system wasn't warranted by the production. McAdoo's offense is as productive, isn't as hard to learn, reduces Int's and gets rid of the ball quickly.
Fewell, also was kept too long.
I'm undecided on why players like Barden and Robinson were kept so long. That on Coughlin or Reese?
It's interesting how some myths become gospel if repeated enough times. But I will agree on Fewell. You could never win a SB with him as DC.
Not sure if serious on Fewell comment.