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NFT: Knicks Free Agency

Earl the goat : 6/27/2016 8:56 pm
If KD doesn't sign why not go after a combo of

Bismarck Biyombo and Fournier / Crabbe
Instead of pursuing Noah and Howard who are going to come a lot more expensive
BB is a relentless defender rebounder and shot blocker. Younger and cheaper than above and allows them to pursue a wing like Fournier or Crabbe

BB will do all the dirty work on the defensive end and set the punishing picks for DRose He doesn't need the ball and allows KP and Melo freedom on the offensive end

BB. Center
KP power forward
Melo small forward
Crabbe/ Fournier SG
Derrick Rose PG

Also keeps more cap space available for 2017. I.E. Westbrook
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Please  
DanMetroMan : 6/28/2016 10:56 am : link
don't sign Parsons. Not worth the risk.
RE: I would be happy with Bazemore and noah  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 10:57 am : link
In comment 13012287 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Add 2 defensive minded players to the starting lineup next to 3 offensive guys...

Kp and noah would be a tough front line


Bazemore brings out some really good offensive nights scoring in the 20s. Very shifty in transition and willing passer. Would be one of the best rebounding guards in the league at the 2. His career per 36 numbers suggest he can be a 15 6 and 3 player. I think he's more than worth it.
Nice thing about Bazemore is he would..  
Italianju : 6/28/2016 10:58 am : link
be the rare knicks signing where the player is trending up. Bazemore has really improved the last couple years and at 26 should still be improving. It sounds like ATL has made him a priority which seems a bit odd since they seem to be blowing it up, but maybe they see him as a building block.
Bazemore  
Deej : 6/28/2016 10:58 am : link
Im not convinced you use real free cap space on 3 and D guys. Maybe in the cheaper range, sub $10 million. But otherwise I think you try to develop them. You can pay them if you're capped out (S&T, Bird).

I admit this might just be a bias. I could be really wrong here. Also, didnt see enough ATL this year to know how good a defender he is. I havent heard that he's an elite wing defender.
Top  
DanMetroMan : 6/28/2016 11:08 am : link
117 FA ranked
Link - ( New Window )
i dont see Bazemore..  
Italianju : 6/28/2016 11:09 am : link
as just a 3 and D guy. I think he has the potential to give you more then just that. He is a solid rebounder and avg a couple assists a game. I dont think he has like all star upside, but i think he can be a plus starter at the 2. I dont think id spend like 20 mill on him, but if its around 15ish i think its fine (15 might be a joke though, he might easily get 20+)
How  
DanMetroMan : 6/28/2016 11:12 am : link
about KOQ for Livingston? (Non-guaranteed deal) might make a nice backup PG option for ultra cheap. I wanted to also get McCraw in the deal but thought that might be greedy
RE: How  
nygiants16 : 6/28/2016 11:16 am : link
In comment 13012305 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
about KOQ for Livingston? (Non-guaranteed deal) might make a nice backup PG option for ultra cheap. I wanted to also get McCraw in the deal but thought that might be greedy


I would do koq for Livingston have to think knicks would to, have to think noah and kp will get most of the minutes at the 5
RE: Bazemore  
Jon in NYC : 6/28/2016 11:19 am : link
In comment 13012295 Deej said:
Quote:
Im not convinced you use real free cap space on 3 and D guys. Maybe in the cheaper range, sub $10 million. But otherwise I think you try to develop them. You can pay them if you're capped out (S&T, Bird).

I admit this might just be a bias. I could be really wrong here. Also, didnt see enough ATL this year to know how good a defender he is. I havent heard that he's an elite wing defender.


Agree on this.

No interest in Bazemore for 15M. I'd rather roll with Galloway for free.
RE: How  
Mason : 6/28/2016 11:22 am : link
In comment 13012305 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
about KOQ for Livingston? (Non-guaranteed deal) might make a nice backup PG option for ultra cheap. I wanted to also get McCraw in the deal but thought that might be greedy


Yep. I would love to land Livingston and McCraw.
Another name that might be cheap  
nygiants16 : 6/28/2016 11:23 am : link
Oj mayo, has had a couple of injury riddled seasons but I would take a chance on him on the cheap as a backup..

Eric Gordon if he would come cheap I would bring him in to
RE: RE: How  
DanMetroMan : 6/28/2016 11:23 am : link
In comment 13012317 Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 13012305 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


about KOQ for Livingston? (Non-guaranteed deal) might make a nice backup PG option for ultra cheap. I wanted to also get McCraw in the deal but thought that might be greedy



Yep. I would love to land Livingston and McCraw.


I honestly think it's a fair deal
RE: Another name that might be cheap  
DanMetroMan : 6/28/2016 11:25 am : link
In comment 13012318 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Oj mayo, has had a couple of injury riddled seasons but I would take a chance on him on the cheap as a backup..

Eric Gordon if he would come cheap I would bring him in to


Had a terrible year but I agree. I wouldn't mind rolling the dice on a 1-2 guards who had down years. Mayo isn't anything special but he's been solid in the past. Problem with a lot of these names is they are ALL very injury prone. How can we rely on Noah, Rose and Eric Gordon? Yikes.
RE: i dont see Bazemore..  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 11:25 am : link
In comment 13012299 Italianju said:
Quote:
as just a 3 and D guy. I think he has the potential to give you more then just that. He is a solid rebounder and avg a couple assists a game. I dont think he has like all star upside, but i think he can be a plus starter at the 2. I dont think id spend like 20 mill on him, but if its around 15ish i think its fine (15 might be a joke though, he might easily get 20+)


Yup. If him and Lee are in the same price range give me Bazemore. He can play the 2 and 3. Him, Noah and rose can really push the pace in transition instead of just stalling into half court sets everytime Melo gets the rebound.
i dont mind guys like mayo and gordon...  
Italianju : 6/28/2016 11:28 am : link
but id really only add them as bench pieces. I think we need to go out and sign a few of these guys like mayo, gordon, vazquez, etc... We need guard depth and if we go with guys like Mayo/gordon your getting them on reasonable deals because they are often hurt. I mean Gordon would really be a great add, but you cant count on him to play more then what 50-60 games?
RE: i dont mind guys like mayo and gordon...  
DanMetroMan : 6/28/2016 11:31 am : link
In comment 13012330 Italianju said:
Quote:
but id really only add them as bench pieces. I think we need to go out and sign a few of these guys like mayo, gordon, vazquez, etc... We need guard depth and if we go with guys like Mayo/gordon your getting them on reasonable deals because they are often hurt. I mean Gordon would really be a great add, but you cant count on him to play more then what 50-60 games?


I find it hard to believe Gordon is going to settle for a bench role/bench money at 27 years old coming off a "solid" season. I mean he is INSANELY injury prone
Saw this interesting Felton/Rose comparison from BBRef  
Sgrcts : 6/28/2016 11:33 am : link


Kind of hard to see but hyperlinked a bigger one.
Rose vs Felton - ( New Window )
Eric Gordon  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 11:35 am : link
Has Nets written all over him. The nets aren't really in the business of risk management since they don't have picks. So they'll hand him $50M and have him put up 18 and 4 en route to winning 25 games.
What were Felton's stats  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 11:37 am : link
when he was playing with a mask because of blurred vision that season?
RE: What were Felton's stats  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/28/2016 11:40 am : link
In comment 13012342 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
when he was playing with a mask because of blurred vision that season?


Felton has an excuse too. His cheeks were packed with cupcakes.
I don't have any interest in Bazemore  
Lopes1984 : 6/28/2016 11:41 am : link
He is an above average defender, but by no means elite. He's a decent shooter, but really fell off the second half of last year. If he is available for ~$10m then fine, but he is going to command a lot more than that.
RE: RE: What were Felton's stats  
Mason : 6/28/2016 11:45 am : link
In comment 13012348 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13012342 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


when he was playing with a mask because of blurred vision that season?



Felton has an excuse too. His cheeks were packed with cupcakes.


To be fair he was going through problems at home. Maybe he had to dine on alot of McDonald and Wendy meals. That could explain his rapid weight gain during the season.
"Fat Ray"?  
Carl in CT : 6/28/2016 11:45 am : link
Someone is trying to get me out of my mind this morning? If stats compare Rose to Fat Ray, then throw every fucking stay out the window as I never want to see another one!
RE: Saw this interesting Felton/Rose comparison from BBRef  
Aspano! : 6/28/2016 11:55 am : link
In comment 13012334 Sgrcts said:
Quote:


Kind of hard to see but hyperlinked a bigger one. Rose vs Felton - ( New Window )


So it's interesting to compare Felton when he was a starting guard for the Knicks during their best season in 16 years (and when they had their best roster) to Rose's first year under a new coach after a 2+ year layoff when he was coming back from multiple surgeries?

Is this for real?
RE: I don't have any interest in Bazemore  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 11:57 am : link
In comment 13012349 Lopes1984 said:
Quote:
He is an above average defender, but by no means elite. He's a decent shooter, but really fell off the second half of last year. If he is available for ~$10m then fine, but he is going to command a lot more than that.


That's fair, but he helps you in many other areas when his shot isn't falling. i'd like to get one player that's trending up this offseason, not down.
RE: Bazemore  
Aspano! : 6/28/2016 11:58 am : link
In comment 13012295 Deej said:
Quote:
Im not convinced you use real free cap space on 3 and D guys. Maybe in the cheaper range, sub $10 million. But otherwise I think you try to develop them. You can pay them if you're capped out (S&T, Bird).

I admit this might just be a bias. I could be really wrong here. Also, didnt see enough ATL this year to know how good a defender he is. I havent heard that he's an elite wing defender.


Completely agree with this. 3 and D guys need to be developed constantly. Having someone like Lance Thomas is a huge asset when he's cost-controlled - not so much when you're paying them a decent paycheck and still trying to build a roster.

The caveat being that if you already have a contending roster in place, it might not be the worst thing to resign them for a bit more money.
RE: RE: Bazemore  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 12:06 pm : link
In comment 13012383 Aspano! said:
Quote:
In comment 13012295 Deej said:


Quote:


Im not convinced you use real free cap space on 3 and D guys. Maybe in the cheaper range, sub $10 million. But otherwise I think you try to develop them. You can pay them if you're capped out (S&T, Bird).

I admit this might just be a bias. I could be really wrong here. Also, didnt see enough ATL this year to know how good a defender he is. I havent heard that he's an elite wing defender.



Completely agree with this. 3 and D guys need to be developed constantly. Having someone like Lance Thomas is a huge asset when he's cost-controlled - not so much when you're paying them a decent paycheck and still trying to build a roster.

The caveat being that if you already have a contending roster in place, it might not be the worst thing to resign them for a bit more money.


I'm saying this because I'm not exactly sure, but was lance Thomas even a good defender? I mean he had the tools of a good defender-size, wingspan, lateral quickness. But he never really stood out on the court to me in that respect.
The idea Roses problems were all based on the mask  
Sgrcts : 6/28/2016 12:07 pm : link
Is ruined by the fact he only had one season with a TS% above 500, and it wasn't the last one.

Anyway- if sign up for Rays performance that year from Derrick and that seems to me to be a reasonable upside to Rose for this season.
RE: The idea Roses problems were all based on the mask  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 12:11 pm : link
In comment 13012401 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
Is ruined by the fact he only had one season with a TS% above 500, and it wasn't the last one.

Anyway- if sign up for Rays performance that year from Derrick and that seems to me to be a reasonable upside to Rose for this season.


You mean since the first ACL tear or career? Because he's had 4 seasons above 50%
you know it dawned on me  
djm : 6/28/2016 12:12 pm : link
that for all the pressure Phil might be under, and he did miss with Fisher can't hide that but one thing Phil hasn't failed at here is contracts. He hasn't handed out a bad one yet. Hope he's as careful here this summer. Gotta believe even if the Knicks do sign a guy or two to long term deals the contracts and player would be movable in the end...
Not saying that's the player he is now  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 12:14 pm : link
If the outcomes were on a normal distribution curve the probability of him returning to that player is all the way in the right tail.

The fact is he's not that player anymore and I don't think that's even fair to say he still has the MVP caliber player in him. But if the second half of last season shows anything, he still has top 10 PG potential in him.
RE: RE: RE: Bazemore  
Aspano! : 6/28/2016 12:16 pm : link
In comment 13012399 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13012383 Aspano! said:


Quote:


In comment 13012295 Deej said:


Quote:


Im not convinced you use real free cap space on 3 and D guys. Maybe in the cheaper range, sub $10 million. But otherwise I think you try to develop them. You can pay them if you're capped out (S&T, Bird).

I admit this might just be a bias. I could be really wrong here. Also, didnt see enough ATL this year to know how good a defender he is. I havent heard that he's an elite wing defender.



Completely agree with this. 3 and D guys need to be developed constantly. Having someone like Lance Thomas is a huge asset when he's cost-controlled - not so much when you're paying them a decent paycheck and still trying to build a roster.

The caveat being that if you already have a contending roster in place, it might not be the worst thing to resign them for a bit more money.



I'm saying this because I'm not exactly sure, but was lance Thomas even a good defender? I mean he had the tools of a good defender-size, wingspan, lateral quickness. But he never really stood out on the court to me in that respect.


Lance is a very good defender. At one point he had one of the highest FG% differentials in the league, although he came back down to earth later in the season. And his injury in January basically coincided with the team shitting the bed for the rest of the year.

I think he's more the type of player that you need to watch to see his value. Very similar to RoLo in that regard.

And on the other side, prior to his injury he was close to having a 50-40-90 season.
RE: RE: Bazemore  
Enzo : 6/28/2016 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13012383 Aspano! said:
Quote:
In comment 13012295 Deej said:


Quote:


Im not convinced you use real free cap space on 3 and D guys. Maybe in the cheaper range, sub $10 million. But otherwise I think you try to develop them. You can pay them if you're capped out (S&T, Bird).

I admit this might just be a bias. I could be really wrong here. Also, didnt see enough ATL this year to know how good a defender he is. I havent heard that he's an elite wing defender.



Completely agree with this. 3 and D guys need to be developed constantly. Having someone like Lance Thomas is a huge asset when he's cost-controlled - not so much when you're paying them a decent paycheck and still trying to build a roster.

would have been nice if the front office had locked up Lance or Galloway with at least a team option for this year.
even in the minor detals  
djm : 6/28/2016 12:18 pm : link
now the Knicks are getting back the 2nd rounders. We aren't the ones taking the long term contracts or dealing away subtle little 2nd rounders seemingly every trade. Now the KNicks are getting those 2nd rounders back in these deals.

It's a slow progression and I get the frustration but really you can see the Knicks are gaining slow progress from an asset mgmt pov. Look at all the picks we have in the coffers over the next few years. And a shit load of cap room here and later.

I know we sucked but it does feel good to have all this breathing room in regards to the cap and looming picks. Hope the KNicks can take advantage of this opportunity.
Aspano  
giantsfan44ab : 6/28/2016 12:21 pm : link
If that's the case I'd think they try to keep him before targeting other guards. The 3 point shooting may be an aberration, but it shows he's capable. A step up from Andre Roberson at least.

It may be premature but I don't think he exceed $8-10M a year. He's the same age as Bazemore. I like him a lot more than Galloway.
RE: you know it dawned on me  
Enzo : 6/28/2016 12:24 pm : link
In comment 13012412 djm said:
Quote:
that for all the pressure Phil might be under, and he did miss with Fisher can't hide that but one thing Phil hasn't failed at here is contracts. He hasn't handed out a bad one yet. Hope he's as careful here this summer. Gotta believe even if the Knicks do sign a guy or two to long term deals the contracts and player would be movable in the end...

keep setting that bar low! And it's not like we're dealing with a large sample size. It's only last summer you can look at where he had the room to give out contracts.
RE: even in the minor detals  
Enzo : 6/28/2016 12:29 pm : link
In comment 13012424 djm said:
Quote:
now the Knicks are getting back the 2nd rounders. We aren't the ones taking the long term contracts or dealing away subtle little 2nd rounders seemingly every trade. Now the KNicks are getting those 2nd rounders back in these deals.

what about the second rounder they traded to dump Outlaw's contract two years ago? They could have just waived him but instead they wanted to save the $$.

Quote:
It's a slow progression and I get the frustration but really you can see the Knicks are gaining slow progress from an asset mgmt pov. Look at all the picks we have in the coffers over the next few years. And a shit load of cap room here and later.

in terms of second rounders, we're actually operating at a deficit thanks to the Outlaw and Willy trades. Not criticizing the Willy trade, but that's the current outlook.

Quote:
I know we sucked but it does feel good to have all this breathing room in regards to the cap and looming picks. Hope the KNicks can take advantage of this opportunity.

this is like the old Chris Rock joke - "I take care of my kids!"

The whole league has cap room. And being careful with draft picks is sort of the bare minim when it comes to competent NBA front office management.
RE: Not saying that's the player he is now  
Sgrcts : 6/28/2016 12:30 pm : link
In comment 13012415 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
If the outcomes were on a normal distribution curve the probability of him returning to that player is all the way in the right tail.

The fact is he's not that player anymore and I don't think that's even fair to say he still has the MVP caliber player in him. But if the second half of last season shows anything, he still has top 10 PG potential in him.



Sorry I meant month, not season. Last season, second half included, he only had one month of TS% above .500
Enzo  
djm : 6/28/2016 12:30 pm : link
it's only last year he basically just fucking got here.

What the hell did you expect here essentially 2 years? The Knicks were completely barren. Now they aren't. Isn't that itself a sign of progress? You can't hit 1000 on all the moves.
Enzo  
djm : 6/28/2016 12:34 pm : link
You're glossing over points with your agenda. The Knicks are unquestionably better from an asset mgmt POV. Are the KNicks in good financially shape and do they or don't they have more picks looming then we can ever remember? Simple fucking question. Oh yea and they have the best young player this franchise has sniffed in 30 fucking years.

Don't bother i'm done with you.
and the whole does not have fucking cap room  
djm : 6/28/2016 12:35 pm : link
there are teams in trouble and not every team has as much cap room as the Knicks do.

And I remember a time when everyone but the Knicks had cap room. I said it's fucking baby steps.
RE: Enzo  
Enzo : 6/28/2016 12:37 pm : link
In comment 13012451 djm said:
Quote:
it's only last year he basically just fucking got here.

What the hell did you expect here essentially 2 years? The Knicks were completely barren. Now they aren't. Isn't that itself a sign of progress? You can't hit 1000 on all the moves.

"not fucking up" is not progress.

What long term assets are on the roster? KP, which he got by accident, and Melo, who's here on a contract that includes every conceivable perk that gives Melo complete control over his future. Signing Afflalo and Williams weren't horrendous Layden/Isiah moves, but they accomplished nothing. Look around the league and see how other non-contenders utilize cap space when they're rebuilding.
RE: and the whole does not have fucking cap room  
DanMetroMan : 6/28/2016 12:38 pm : link
In comment 13012459 djm said:
Quote:
there are teams in trouble and not every team has as much cap room as the Knicks do.

And I remember a time when everyone but the Knicks had cap room. I said it's fucking baby steps.



Team

Maximum Cap Space

LA Lakers

$62,613,020

Philadelphia

$61,220,813

Dallas

$56,230,396

Boston

$53,397,958

Orlando

$50,354,805

Houston

$41,227,808

Washington

$40,103,848

Charlotte

$39,830,474

Portland

$39,784,459

Brooklyn

$38,277,194

Memphis

$38,082,020

Miami

$36,643,557

Atlanta

$35,124,459

Phoenix

$33,713,388

Toronto

$32,385,182

Utah

$31,895,769

Denver

$31,776,000

New York

$30,372,607
Link - ( New Window )
Eh. Not fair to say he got KP by accident.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/28/2016 12:41 pm : link
You have to give him that. He trusted his staff that KP was the right pick.
RE: RE: Not saying that's the player he is now  
Lopes1984 : 6/28/2016 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13012448 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
In comment 13012415 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


If the outcomes were on a normal distribution curve the probability of him returning to that player is all the way in the right tail.

The fact is he's not that player anymore and I don't think that's even fair to say he still has the MVP caliber player in him. But if the second half of last season shows anything, he still has top 10 PG potential in him.




Sorry I meant month, not season. Last season, second half included, he only had one month of TS% above .500


That's not even true. His TS% was .526 in January, .508 in February, .511 in March. The only times it was under 50% was when he was wearing the mask, and in a small 3 games sample in April.
RE: Enzo  
Enzo : 6/28/2016 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13012457 djm said:
Quote:
You're glossing over points with your agenda. The Knicks are unquestionably better from an asset mgmt POV.

better than Isiah? Sure. Compared to the better run teams in the league. Not even close. If you were familiar with the rest of the league you might be aware of this.

Quote:
Are the KNicks in good financially shape and do they or don't they have more picks looming then we can ever remember?

again, setting bar low. There are teams that acquire EXTRA picks. Why not try to be one of those teams?

Quote:
Simple fucking question. Oh yea and they have the best young player this franchise has sniffed in 30 fucking years.

which was a result of an accidental tank. Phil was trying to make the playoffs that year. That doesn't alarm you?

Quote:
Don't bother i'm done with you.

Sorry if facts bother you that much. What a fucking baby...
I'm not even  
Jon in NYC : 6/28/2016 12:43 pm : link
going to wade through Enzo's bullshit, but if he said Phil drafting KP was an accident, it just shows that he has an agenda.
RE: Enzo  
Sgrcts : 6/28/2016 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13012457 djm said:
Quote:
You're glossing over points with your agenda. The Knicks are unquestionably better from an asset mgmt POV. Are the KNicks in good financially shape and do they or don't they have more picks looming then we can ever remember? Simple fucking question. Oh yea and they have the best young player this franchise has sniffed in 30 fucking years.

Don't bother i'm done with you.


I think the issue is- what are we doing with those assets, that money and the best young player in 30 years?

We're still trying to build around Melo's timeline, we're rolling the dice on injured players, maybe signing them to long term deals.

I think every single person is 10000% on board with KP. The question is- are we patient or are we trying another short term fix for the 135252351 time since we traded Ewing?
RE: Eh. Not fair to say he got KP by accident.  
Enzo : 6/28/2016 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13012466 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
You have to give him that. He trusted his staff that KP was the right pick.

when I say "accident", it's because they only ended up with a pick that high because Phil's plan to make the playoffs that season blew up in his face.
RE: RE: Eh. Not fair to say he got KP by accident.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/28/2016 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13012477 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13012466 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


You have to give him that. He trusted his staff that KP was the right pick.


when I say "accident", it's because they only ended up with a pick that high because Phil's plan to make the playoffs that season blew up in his face.


Oh, lol. Yeah, I suppose that's true.
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