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NFT: AMC's Turn, Season 3 Finale

GMenLTS : 6/29/2016 2:14 pm
Thoughts on the finale and the season?

Very underwhelming intro for Hamilton in the prior episode, would love to see more hamilton going forward despite the actor being extremely forgettable. Maybe the writers don't want hamilton to overshadow the culper ring story despite hamilton's major importance to Washington?

Excellent job with the lead up to Andre's hanging, so many continental officers could not speak more highly of him leading up to the hanging, I was glad to see they did justice for Andre in that regard. There was much respect for him despite being caught and tried as a spy, glad they went over the controversy there too.

Definitely some inaccuracies regarding how andre was caught and how arnold escaped. I never expected total accuracy here but I think you could have a much better horse chase rather than arnold just getting on a boat after being found out, and tallmadge missing the shot as he departed. (Real good Hamilton book came out a few months ago and describes the west point affair with as much evidence as possible. Alexander Hamilton: The formative years. One of the best sourced books I ever read.)

The whole season was very entertaining. Anna and Major Hewlett. Andre's scheming. Rogers killing it. Symcoe's continued sociopathic rampage. The Townshends and Rivington. (I wonder if we'll get to see Rivington's opportunistic assistance to the colonies later in the war) Biggest complaint is how amateurish abraham is regularly, onscreen he does not learn from his mistakes at all nor does he really acknowledge that he makes them.

It was great seeing the Arnold defection brought to life, but I was left wanting to see more on just how shitty Arnold had made the defenses around west point and again, a bit better depiction of the andre capture and horserace to catch arnold. Awesome job having Clinton put Arnold in his place after the fact too.

Really great third season though overall, every week was thoroughly compelling.
I thought it was an OK season  
AP in Halfmoon : 6/29/2016 2:20 pm : link
But I missed the last episode. How accurate was the Arnold defection?
I find it riveting  
pjcas18 : 6/29/2016 2:23 pm : link
this season a little less than the other two, but not much.

Simcoe deserves an emmy.

And I think that's Abraham and why he was effective, he's reckless and determined and doesn't care so much for living or dying.

I love they got the Nathan Hale quote right, and Washington admitted Hale never said it but was orchestrated for a reason.

Did you read the book Turn was based on? This is one case where the show/movie FAR exceeds the book. The book is great because it includes actual content from the letters sent back and forth and some very cool historical fact, but it's rambling and all over the place.

I'll check out the Hamilton book, this subject fascinates me.

I'm not one to get hung up on accuracy  
AP in Halfmoon : 6/29/2016 2:29 pm : link
I just like knowing the real story. I'm a big fan of historical fiction. The Outlander series did a nice job adding Jamie to Washington's army.
AP, accounts I've read seem to agree  
GMenLTS : 6/29/2016 2:35 pm : link
that Andre was caught 2 days before Washington arrived and Washington never actually met with Arnold. Washington was nearly arriving at Arnold's residence when Arnold got word that Andre was caught by militiamen. Upon hearing receipt of the dispatch, he told the wife he was out, grabbed a horse, and took off, telling a subordinate to let GW know he went over to west point but would be back in a half hour.

When GW arrived at the residence, he had breakfast then decided to check out west point himself instead of waiting. He immediately noticed the defenses were terribly set up. Then he received a dispatch about the Andre news along with the west point plans recovered from Andre. Then they put 2 and 2 together and a couple subordinates took off on horseback to catch him but were too late.


pj, it's in my kindle queue but I've heard it's more a compelling narrative than a very well researched book so it's on the list but not a huge priority.
I was pretty meh on this season until the finale  
Bill L : 6/29/2016 2:36 pm : link
I thought the finale killed it. Liked it even better that the GoT finale (although they are not even remotely the same thing; just going by which pleased me more). I like the Andre part a ton. I have not really been a fan of Setauket because on the whole I think Abraham is a douche. I couldn't find a single likeable think about him this season. His dad is a douche too so I guess, go figure. He turned out to be pretty cagey in the end though. I'm actually ready for Simcoe to go...to bad he lived the war out. But from what I've read, he wasn't the sadist or anything at all like who he is on the show.

Robert Rogers, also pretty untrue to history, is my favorite character though.
RE: AP, accounts I've read seem to agree  
pjcas18 : 6/29/2016 2:40 pm : link
In comment 13014183 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
that Andre was caught 2 days before Washington arrived and Washington never actually met with Arnold. Washington was nearly arriving at Arnold's residence when Arnold got word that Andre was caught by militiamen. Upon hearing receipt of the dispatch, he told the wife he was out, grabbed a horse, and took off, telling a subordinate to let GW know he went over to west point but would be back in a half hour.

When GW arrived at the residence, he had breakfast then decided to check out west point himself instead of waiting. He immediately noticed the defenses were terribly set up. Then he received a dispatch about the Andre news along with the west point plans recovered from Andre. Then they put 2 and 2 together and a couple subordinates took off on horseback to catch him but were too late.


pj, it's in my kindle queue but I've heard it's more a compelling narrative than a very well researched book so it's on the list but not a huge priority.


Less a narrative more a collection of anecdotes with no real cohesive plot. worth a read, but agree shouldn't be high priority.

And Arnold turned out to be a treasonous traitor, but man he got hosed. Obviously nearly everyone watching the show knew the outcome, but he was pushed to his breaking point.

the other piece I found somewhat unrealistic is talmadge letting shippen (Arnold's wife) because we know she accompanies him back to England.
Well Washington did allow her to return to philly with her family  
GMenLTS : 6/29/2016 2:53 pm : link
then allowed her to go to NY under a flag of truce. Obviously the Tallmadge part and her even being present at the hanging was inaccurate but that part of the production I liked. I always appreciated extra shippen screen time in this show.

And while Arnold was certainly passed over a lot and not recognized for his merits, he was hardly the only continental rank to suffer such a fate. He was terrible with finances and quite ill tempered as well so he made a great target for the british to attempt to turn. Without Andre's cunning, Arnold likely never contemplates treason but that happens in war.
It seemed  
pjcas18 : 6/29/2016 3:00 pm : link
like Arnold didn't get the battlefield credit he deserved and then being wounded in battle hurt him for career advancement.

forget the monetary "reward" for things he considered he financed on the behalf of the continental army that he should have been reimbursed for, I'm speaking strictly as a combat leader.

he supposedly was quite the formidable warrior.
HIstorical Blog  
koko2315 : 6/29/2016 3:02 pm : link
linky
Link - ( New Window )
Oh he absolutely was an excellent battlefield commander  
GMenLTS : 6/29/2016 3:05 pm : link
but throughout the war, promotions and ranks were something that Washington had to execute with much political skill.

Sometimes people deserved promotion for progressing through the ranks in a typical hierarchy, people like Arnold, Hamilton, John Laurens, and may others, who deserved promotions based solely off merit, had a very difficult time getting said promotions. Traditionally, the former hierarchy procedure was how this typically worked. It's why you see the english immediately demoting arnold's rank. They're all about the hierarchy.

This was one of Washington's biggest bureaucratic struggles throughout the war.
may = many  
GMenLTS : 6/29/2016 3:06 pm : link
.
No doubt  
pjcas18 : 6/29/2016 3:29 pm : link
Hamilton was instrumental to the war efforts, but not to the extent from a combat/valor standpoint that Arnold was.

but he was petulant and sensitive. Anyone who got promoted over him he would stew over.

and when he finally did get his promotion approved he rejected it unless it was backdated to be before those who he felt should be his junior. I read he re-signed multiple times and withdrew his forces from the battlefield multiple times because he disagreed with strategy or felt disrespected. and he was probably right if we had good accurate accounts of the events.

anyway, my point wasn't suggesting Arnold was a great American, however he was, if you believe the accounts, a legendary combat tactician, a real battlefield warrior and probably got hosed in terms of recognition.

should have been hanged, but also could have been avoided.

Big fan of the show  
mfsd : 6/29/2016 3:37 pm : link
Interesting portrayal of Arnold - he was a real whiny bitch in the show, not sure how accurate but they definitely made him very unlikeable

Simcoe is a great bad guy, on par with Ramsay Bolton in GOT with his chillingly cheerful psychotic bent

The only part of the story that got pretty dull for me is the ongoing angst between Woodhull and his father.
I was wondering about Arnold and...  
Mike From Brielle : 6/29/2016 6:18 pm : link
White Horse Harry Lee who in reality was much better connected than Arnold but if we are to believe last season was by far the much greater traitor at the battle of Monmouth. I believe Lee was an aristocrat who tried to sell the whole continental Army down the well along with Washington because he felt he was slighted by Congress for giving the command of the continental Army to Washington. Lee was never "Hosed" like Arnold was but Arnold tried to hang in there longer than Lee did. Perhaps as referring to traitors as Benedict Arnolds we should refer to them as Harry Lee's, particularly well connected ones.
change  
Mike From Brielle : 6/29/2016 6:21 pm : link
"perhaps as" to "Perhaps instead of"
RE: It seemed  
Reb8thVA : 6/29/2016 8:12 pm : link
In comment 13014243 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
like Arnold didn't get the battlefield credit he deserved and then being wounded in battle hurt him for career advancement.

forget the monetary "reward" for things he considered he financed on the behalf of the continental army that he should have been reimbursed for, I'm speaking strictly as a combat leader.

he supposedly was quite the formidable warrior.
Arnold is the main reason the Continentals prevail at the battle of Saratoga. Arnold defies the orders of the Commanding General Horatio Gates who is a bumbling venal blowhard takes command and rallies the forces to victory. Without a victory at Saratoga the French probably don't enter the war and Yorktown doesn't happen.

Arnold also personally financed a campaign in 1775-1776 to take Quebec which was a source of his financial difficulties
RE: I was wondering about Arnold and...  
Reb8thVA : 6/29/2016 8:19 pm : link
In comment 13014602 Mike From Brielle said:
Quote:
White Horse Harry Lee who in reality was much better connected than Arnold but if we are to believe last season was by far the much greater traitor at the battle of Monmouth. I believe Lee was an aristocrat who tried to sell the whole continental Army down the well along with Washington because he felt he was slighted by Congress for giving the command of the continental Army to Washington. Lee was never "Hosed" like Arnold was but Arnold tried to hang in there longer than Lee did. Perhaps as referring to traitors as Benedict Arnolds we should refer to them as Harry Lee's, particularly well connected ones.


The Lee at the battle of Monmouth is General Charles Lee not Light Horse Harry Lee who was a Cavalry commander and the father of Robert E. Lee.
The season was up and down,  
Rick5 : 6/29/2016 9:08 pm : link
but overall, I love the show. I thought the finale was fantastic. It was probably my favorite episode. It will be a crime if they don't bring it back for another season.
RE: The season was up and down,  
Reb8thVA : 6/29/2016 9:12 pm : link
In comment 13014816 Rick5 said:
Quote:
but overall, I love the show. I thought the finale was fantastic. It was probably my favorite episode. It will be a crime if they don't bring it back for another season.


My fear is the don't renew it. The really onl need one more season to Finnish the story but the ratings have been dismal
RE: RE: The season was up and down,  
Bill L : 6/29/2016 9:23 pm : link
In comment 13014820 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
In comment 13014816 Rick5 said:


Quote:


but overall, I love the show. I thought the finale was fantastic. It was probably my favorite episode. It will be a crime if they don't bring it back for another season.



My fear is the don't renew it. The really onl need one more season to Finnish the story but the ratings have been dismal
it would suck if it gets cancelled before we get the chance to find out who wins the war. I hope they renew it.
It  
NJGiantFan84 : 6/29/2016 10:29 pm : link
Really bothers me that a show like this with so much meaning behind it (even as historical fiction) gets so few viewers while stupid reality shows get millions of people hooked. This is a gem and people miss out. The average viewership in the 18-49 demo was down from .22 last season to .15 this season. Thats slightly over a half million viewers. Though it did go up significantly the last two weeks.

For comparisons sake, Low Winter sun had a .44 which is about 1.2 million viewers in that demographic. It was cancelled after a season. I bet AMC wants to put a ribbon on the show, but I see a "Treme-like" renewal of 4-6 episodes to wrap things up. If not by AMC, maybe by Netflix even though they said they were straying from that practice. Hulu also. Or maybe I am just selfishly hoping.

Read an interesting article that suggested the intro of Hamilton could gain some people obsessed with the Broadway play and that could be the saving grace. With these ratings, Id be shocked if it were brought back for a full season.
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