to stop treating individual players as "wins". That's just not how it works in basketball. Players are dependent on each other and fit is vital. Probably moreso than any other sport.
A Rose-Lee-Melo-KP-Noah team "fits" together well, and there is plenty of reason to think the whole will be greater than the sum is its parts. The 3rd seed in the east won 48 games last year. I think this is a 50-55 win team, which should be in the 2-4 range in the East.
Is that a sure fire title contender? No. But barring signing Durant, what is the path to that that we can't still achieve. As I mentioned earlier, building NBA teams is 90% about what core 3-4 guys you can get in place, and everyone else is interchangeable. Lopez and Grant are never going to be apart of a core 3-4 guys on an NBA title team.
Eric Gordon, but his injury history scares me a bit. Him and Noah wouldn't be a bad haul. I don't know if they coudl fit Noah and Batum but that would be the dream scenario at this point (obviously KD out of mix).
Is leaning towards the Mavericks according to Bleacher Report.
They may not win 25 more games, but 48 wins got you the 3rd seed last year. I don't think an extra 16-17 wins is impossible. Especially if we had a decent SG. Obviously that's providing our guys stay healthy. Noah is a better player then RoLo. Rose is much better then Calderon. Melo should benefit from having those 2. KP is going to get better.
to stop treating individual players as "wins". That's just not how it works in basketball. Players are dependent on each other and fit is vital. Probably moreso than any other sport.
A Rose-Lee-Melo-KP-Noah team "fits" together well, and there is plenty of reason to think the whole will be greater than the sum is its parts. The 3rd seed in the east won 48 games last year. I think this is a 50-55 win team, which should be in the 2-4 range in the East.
Is that a sure fire title contender? No. But barring signing Durant, what is the path to that that we can't still achieve. As I mentioned earlier, building NBA teams is 90% about what core 3-4 guys you can get in place, and everyone else is interchangeable. Lopez and Grant are never going to be apart of a core 3-4 guys on an NBA title team.
Eh, it kind of is how it works. Sure there is some chemistry. But win shares explain a lot of teams records. They're not predictive, but I programmed in a lot of wiggle room. Fact is it will be very hard for us to fill out a decent roster that could let us get to high 50s wins. If we sign Noah and Lee, MAYBE would could make one Williams level signing. If it is Noah and Baze/Batum, very unlikely.
IMO 57 wins is magic thinking, barring Rose being a near MVP level player. Next best plan to get to 57 is probably one signing like a Noah/Baze type and then 3-5 guys for like 4-5 million each. Depth is really important.
Is leaning towards the Mavericks according to Bleacher Report.
They may not win 25 more games, but 48 wins got you the 3rd seed last year. I don't think an extra 16-17 wins is impossible. Especially if we had a decent SG. Obviously that's providing our guys stay healthy. Noah is a better player then RoLo. Rose is much better then Calderon. Melo should benefit from having those 2. KP is going to get better.
I wouldnt bet the over, but I dont think 48 wins is a crazy outcome.
Noah/Willy
KP/O'Quinn
Melo/Thomas
Lee/Galloway/Holiday
Rose/Vasquez (or someone of the like)
That's far from a terrible bench. No one there will win 6th man of the year, but there are decent backups at each position and a lot of two way players.
I think they could go up by 15 wins or so if we land Noah,
We have money, we have attractive pieces, the three guys, so I feel pretty confident were going to get a good player, Hornacek said Thursday after summer-league practice. With the addition of Derrick Rose, we have Melo and Kristaps, its an attractive place to come. We got a great crop to work around to help us back into the playoffs.
Hornacek said the triangle offense is sweet for a center, and Robin Lopez proved that last season when he emerged as a major low-post option. That is expected to be conveyed to Noah at the meeting as the Knicks look to add a big, scrappy body next to 7-foot-3 forward Kristaps Porzingis. The free-agent recruiting period begins at 12:01 a.m. Friday, but the Knicks wont be burning the midnight oil with Noah.
Hornacek was asked about his sales pitch to the elite centers.
The biggest thing for the guys is look at some of the main components we have, Hornacek said. If they know they can go to a team that can win, that helps. We obviously want to solidify the defense from that spot. Robin was a guy who was very good at protecting the basket. We want that. We want a guy who can do it all. You cant be one-dimensional in this league.
Hes got to have a little bit of ability whether he can finish underneath, move around, make some midrange shots. We want that ability, Hornacek added. Not just be a guy whos going to set picks all the time, but going to be involved a little bit more than a lot of teams in the league. A lot of those [triangle] aspects, youre going to have touches and make plays out of it. Maybe in early offense, in the open court, now you can set some picks and roll.
You can't undervalue the importance of real depth. Optimism isn't going to do anything on the court if Rose misses any time. The team becomes just as challenged as this past year.
I was just listening to Hornacek on the MSG free agent show tonight, and he was saying how the guys they want to meet with have been receptive so far. Clearly there's a lot of chatter already going on.
Are going to offer a 5 year 115 million dollar deal to Harrison Barnes at 12:01. That's a lot of loot
wow, big bucks. Hard to see how we're gonna land a bench with the money teams are throwing around.
Maybe I am missing something but with there still being the same amount of players in the league and if more teams are throwing larger money at targeted key players it stands to reason because of the cap there has to be that many more players not receiving such large offers that will be available.
I feel like some source is running his mouth without knowledge. It makes way more sense than the Knicks negotiating with Noah before 7/1.
I agree but I also have no idea how that tampering shit works and when it is or isn't enforced. But yea how come know is even mentioning the tampering factor? Weird
Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine
Sources say Golden State's Durant pitch is scheduled to include Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Steve Kerr, Bob Myers, Joe Lacob
Both of them healthy will get you a lot more wins. Remember, outside Cleveland, the East fucking blows.
(responding to everyone)
Lopez was a 6 win player. How many wins is Noah netting you at center? Assuming he doesnt match his career best season, at best Noah gets you +3 wins. Derrick Rose? Again, his 2nd best season is a net +2 wins over Calderon last year. Lets fib and call it +4 just for fun. You've gained 7 wins. Knock off one though because Grant is gone and Holiday isnt anything.
So net six wins. Who are you adding on top of that? I think Bazemore and Batum are unlikely. Bazemore's best season is 4 wins. Lets call him 5 here to be generous. Now you're +11 wins (Batum might net you 6; Lee 4) being generous. But the rest of your roster under performs last year. Williams (3.6 wins) and AA (2.7) cost 13 million, and with Noah and Baze/Batum, there isnt money to pay for premium depth. So you end up with a bunch of 0-2 win players, who dont net you anything over last year's 0-2 win players. So you're back down to +5 wins. Lets put our thumb on the scale again and say +8. Im REALLY being generous.
So to get to 57 wins and ~the #2 seed, Melo and KP have to get ~17 wins better. Melo was a 6.4 win player last year; best ever year was 10.7. I dont thnk he's in for a career year, but fuck it, lets give him 5 more wins. Now KP needs to create a minimum of 12 wins over his 4 from last year. Is KP a 16 win player in year 2? Usually 16 wins is better than the 2nd best player in the NBA. If I take my thumb off the scale from above he needs to be a low-20s win player, which means better than LeBron has ever been.
There is simply no plausible was for us to get the depth to be a 57 win team unless we hit 3-5 home runs in very cheap signings. Minimum salary guys who weirdly give 3-4 win performances.
I don't think 57 wins is realistic at all next year, but I don't think 50 is out of the question. They don't even need Noah and Rose to be significantly better than Calderon and Lopez.
Let's say to be conservative that those 2 are worth 2 more wins than the Knicks got from Lopez and Calderon, the big area of improvement in the starting lineup will be from development of Porzingis, healthier Melo, and an upgrade at SG. Would you say it is unreasonable to see an increase of 3 wins from KP and 2.5 from Carmelo? Let's just say they get Courtney Lee at the 2-guard. He has pretty consistently been a 4 win guy, that's about 1.5 better than Afflalo last year.
So to add it up, net 2 wins from Noah and Rose, 5.5 from Carmelo and KP, and 1.5 from Lee over Afflalo gives about a 9 win increase from last year's starting 5. The Knicks starting 5 last year accounted for ~23 wins, so the new Knicks starting 5 is at 32 wins.
For comparisons sake, last year's Hawks starting 5 was at 34 wins, Miami's was 27 wins, and Boston's was 32.5 wins. All 3 of those teams won 48 games, so with the right additions to the NY bench 48 wins seems realistic, but 50 is possible too.
I remember following him a few years ago & everything he posted was wrong. Someone retweeted him today so I went & looked at his timeline. Only thing I posted from him was the Wade interest & the Noah deal wasn't close. Both seem like huge reaches to me.
Yea Tommy Dee is the worst. he also talks down to people acting like he knows stuff. Absolute worst. Would love a thread with zero mention of him from here on.
If that is the actual deal then that is an awesome job by Jackson. $16 per year is what I was hoping going in, and only a partial guarantee for the third year is huge. It gives flexibility to get out of the deal if Noah cant stay healthy, and it makes the contract a lot easier to trade if so desired down the line.
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Ken Berger @KBergCBS
Rival execs strongly expect Knicks-Joakim Noah to gain steam quickly tomorrow once two sides meet. Big question from one exec: "How much?"
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Really don't want Gordon at all. Would much rather have the better defensive player in Courtney Lee.
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Really don't want Gordon at all. Would much rather have the better defensive player in Courtney Lee.
Agreed, would rather a more efficient 3 and d guy at the 2...
Gordon is more of a scorer need the ball in their hands type of player and I don't know how that meshes with Melo and rose, although he and rose have been friends since high school
NBA Central @TheNBACentral
Knicks are trying to setup an informal meeting with KD, D-Rose & Joakim Noah are helping. Practically confirming Noah to NY. (The Vertical)
I can't think of anything that would be more legendary
then if he would come to NY and lead the Knicks to a championship.
IMO a great player would live for the opportunity to take that chance even if the odds of achieving a ring was a litle harder than say going to the Warriors would be.
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Vertical Sources: Joakim Noah and the New York Knicks are in discussions on the framework of a deal in range of four years, $70M-plus.
I feel like some source is running his mouth without knowledge. It makes way more sense than the Knicks negotiating with Noah before 7/1.
A Rose-Lee-Melo-KP-Noah team "fits" together well, and there is plenty of reason to think the whole will be greater than the sum is its parts. The 3rd seed in the east won 48 games last year. I think this is a 50-55 win team, which should be in the 2-4 range in the East.
Is that a sure fire title contender? No. But barring signing Durant, what is the path to that that we can't still achieve. As I mentioned earlier, building NBA teams is 90% about what core 3-4 guys you can get in place, and everyone else is interchangeable. Lopez and Grant are never going to be apart of a core 3-4 guys on an NBA title team.
They may not win 25 more games, but 48 wins got you the 3rd seed last year. I don't think an extra 16-17 wins is impossible. Especially if we had a decent SG. Obviously that's providing our guys stay healthy. Noah is a better player then RoLo. Rose is much better then Calderon. Melo should benefit from having those 2. KP is going to get better.
A Rose-Lee-Melo-KP-Noah team "fits" together well, and there is plenty of reason to think the whole will be greater than the sum is its parts. The 3rd seed in the east won 48 games last year. I think this is a 50-55 win team, which should be in the 2-4 range in the East.
Is that a sure fire title contender? No. But barring signing Durant, what is the path to that that we can't still achieve. As I mentioned earlier, building NBA teams is 90% about what core 3-4 guys you can get in place, and everyone else is interchangeable. Lopez and Grant are never going to be apart of a core 3-4 guys on an NBA title team.
Eh, it kind of is how it works. Sure there is some chemistry. But win shares explain a lot of teams records. They're not predictive, but I programmed in a lot of wiggle room. Fact is it will be very hard for us to fill out a decent roster that could let us get to high 50s wins. If we sign Noah and Lee, MAYBE would could make one Williams level signing. If it is Noah and Baze/Batum, very unlikely.
IMO 57 wins is magic thinking, barring Rose being a near MVP level player. Next best plan to get to 57 is probably one signing like a Noah/Baze type and then 3-5 guys for like 4-5 million each. Depth is really important.
They may not win 25 more games, but 48 wins got you the 3rd seed last year. I don't think an extra 16-17 wins is impossible. Especially if we had a decent SG. Obviously that's providing our guys stay healthy. Noah is a better player then RoLo. Rose is much better then Calderon. Melo should benefit from having those 2. KP is going to get better.
I wouldnt bet the over, but I dont think 48 wins is a crazy outcome.
I feel like some source is running his mouth without knowledge. It makes way more sense than the Knicks negotiating with Noah before 7/1.
It's a good point. Are their any loopholes which allow agents to talk early, but players can't meet til midnight?
Noah/Willy
KP/O'Quinn
Melo/Thomas
Lee/Galloway/Holiday
Rose/Vasquez (or someone of the like)
That's far from a terrible bench. No one there will win 6th man of the year, but there are decent backups at each position and a lot of two way players.
Hornacek said the triangle offense is sweet for a center, and Robin Lopez proved that last season when he emerged as a major low-post option. That is expected to be conveyed to Noah at the meeting as the Knicks look to add a big, scrappy body next to 7-foot-3 forward Kristaps Porzingis. The free-agent recruiting period begins at 12:01 a.m. Friday, but the Knicks wont be burning the midnight oil with Noah.
Hornacek was asked about his sales pitch to the elite centers.
The biggest thing for the guys is look at some of the main components we have, Hornacek said. If they know they can go to a team that can win, that helps. We obviously want to solidify the defense from that spot. Robin was a guy who was very good at protecting the basket. We want that. We want a guy who can do it all. You cant be one-dimensional in this league.
Hes got to have a little bit of ability whether he can finish underneath, move around, make some midrange shots. We want that ability, Hornacek added. Not just be a guy whos going to set picks all the time, but going to be involved a little bit more than a lot of teams in the league. A lot of those [triangle] aspects, youre going to have touches and make plays out of it. Maybe in early offense, in the open court, now you can set some picks and roll.
Link - ( New Window )
wow, big bucks. Hard to see how we're gonna land a bench with the money teams are throwing around.
Quote:
Are going to offer a 5 year 115 million dollar deal to Harrison Barnes at 12:01. That's a lot of loot
wow, big bucks. Hard to see how we're gonna land a bench with the money teams are throwing around.
Maybe I am missing something but with there still being the same amount of players in the league and if more teams are throwing larger money at targeted key players it stands to reason because of the cap there has to be that many more players not receiving such large offers that will be available.
I feel like some source is running his mouth without knowledge. It makes way more sense than the Knicks negotiating with Noah before 7/1.
I agree but I also have no idea how that tampering shit works and when it is or isn't enforced. But yea how come know is even mentioning the tampering factor? Weird
Also saying the Knicks will go hard after Wade if we miss out on Durant. Haven't seen that anywhere else besides him.
Sources say Golden State's Durant pitch is scheduled to include Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Steve Kerr, Bob Myers, Joe Lacob
Quote:
In comment 13016336 Deej said:
Quote:
aint getting you +25 games. Come the fuck on.
Both of them healthy will get you a lot more wins. Remember, outside Cleveland, the East fucking blows.
(responding to everyone)
Lopez was a 6 win player. How many wins is Noah netting you at center? Assuming he doesnt match his career best season, at best Noah gets you +3 wins. Derrick Rose? Again, his 2nd best season is a net +2 wins over Calderon last year. Lets fib and call it +4 just for fun. You've gained 7 wins. Knock off one though because Grant is gone and Holiday isnt anything.
So net six wins. Who are you adding on top of that? I think Bazemore and Batum are unlikely. Bazemore's best season is 4 wins. Lets call him 5 here to be generous. Now you're +11 wins (Batum might net you 6; Lee 4) being generous. But the rest of your roster under performs last year. Williams (3.6 wins) and AA (2.7) cost 13 million, and with Noah and Baze/Batum, there isnt money to pay for premium depth. So you end up with a bunch of 0-2 win players, who dont net you anything over last year's 0-2 win players. So you're back down to +5 wins. Lets put our thumb on the scale again and say +8. Im REALLY being generous.
So to get to 57 wins and ~the #2 seed, Melo and KP have to get ~17 wins better. Melo was a 6.4 win player last year; best ever year was 10.7. I dont thnk he's in for a career year, but fuck it, lets give him 5 more wins. Now KP needs to create a minimum of 12 wins over his 4 from last year. Is KP a 16 win player in year 2? Usually 16 wins is better than the 2nd best player in the NBA. If I take my thumb off the scale from above he needs to be a low-20s win player, which means better than LeBron has ever been.
There is simply no plausible was for us to get the depth to be a 57 win team unless we hit 3-5 home runs in very cheap signings. Minimum salary guys who weirdly give 3-4 win performances.
I don't think 57 wins is realistic at all next year, but I don't think 50 is out of the question. They don't even need Noah and Rose to be significantly better than Calderon and Lopez.
Let's say to be conservative that those 2 are worth 2 more wins than the Knicks got from Lopez and Calderon, the big area of improvement in the starting lineup will be from development of Porzingis, healthier Melo, and an upgrade at SG. Would you say it is unreasonable to see an increase of 3 wins from KP and 2.5 from Carmelo? Let's just say they get Courtney Lee at the 2-guard. He has pretty consistently been a 4 win guy, that's about 1.5 better than Afflalo last year.
So to add it up, net 2 wins from Noah and Rose, 5.5 from Carmelo and KP, and 1.5 from Lee over Afflalo gives about a 9 win increase from last year's starting 5. The Knicks starting 5 last year accounted for ~23 wins, so the new Knicks starting 5 is at 32 wins.
For comparisons sake, last year's Hawks starting 5 was at 34 wins, Miami's was 27 wins, and Boston's was 32.5 wins. All 3 of those teams won 48 games, so with the right additions to the NY bench 48 wins seems realistic, but 50 is possible too.
Link - ( New Window )
If that is the actual deal then that is an awesome job by Jackson. $16 per year is what I was hoping going in, and only a partial guarantee for the third year is huge. It gives flexibility to get out of the deal if Noah cant stay healthy, and it makes the contract a lot easier to trade if so desired down the line.
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Rival execs strongly expect Knicks-Joakim Noah to gain steam quickly tomorrow once two sides meet. Big question from one exec: "How much?"
Quote:
..Noah Knicks Link - ( New Window )
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Really don't want Gordon at all. Would much rather have the better defensive player in Courtney Lee.
Quote:
In comment 13016632 djm said:
Quote:
..Noah Knicks Link - ( New Window )
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Really don't want Gordon at all. Would much rather have the better defensive player in Courtney Lee.
Agreed, would rather a more efficient 3 and d guy at the 2...
Gordon is more of a scorer need the ball in their hands type of player and I don't know how that meshes with Melo and rose, although he and rose have been friends since high school
There has been some traction lately of the Knicks being able to get an audience with Durant.
Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Rose and even Joakim Noah have reached out to Durant in attempts to recruit him to the Knicks.
Durant is uncertain if he would like to live in New York and he's also dubious about their chances of contending for a title immediately.
ADRIAN WOJNAROWSKI/THE VERTICAL
Source: Evan Turner to be courted by Lakers, Mavericks, Grizzlies, Bulls, Knicks and Pelicans. He's in LA now.
Knicks are trying to setup an informal meeting with KD, D-Rose & Joakim Noah are helping. Practically confirming Noah to NY. (The Vertical)
IMO a great player would live for the opportunity to take that chance even if the odds of achieving a ring was a litle harder than say going to the Warriors would be.
Unless noah is willing to take less to get Durant here?
Also rose is recruiting Gordon, they are close friends...
Kind of what Matthew's did last year with dallas
Vertical Sources: Joakim Noah and the New York Knicks are in discussions on the framework of a deal in range of four years, $70M-plus.