I curse the 90s Knicks not because they failed in 94 (they didn't get beaten by a better team, they failed). But because they made me fall in love with this franchise. I can't NOT care about them, and yet year after motherfucking year, they are the Cleveland Browns of basketball.
What's next? New uniform?
Lebron is on notice. Melo is all in. Phil got his pieces now
It is a one year deal. This is not the right way to build around Porzingis.
Why not go after whiteside for $22mm per year if your going to pay Noah $18mm or sign Mozgov for $10mm a year. 3 of the starting 5 players are eztremely injury prone and assuming this is a 4 year deal, then your going to be stuck with Noah and Melo together for another 3 years as the continue their declines and injury riddled seasons. The rose trade on its own is fine with me, but this combo is just really dumb.
Just because the WP says $18 million, it doesn't make it so.
Where would they get that # if Phil can't talk to JN until 12:01 AM tonight? Obviously it's JN's agents floating that #. Now $18 mill in this cap year is not extreme but one would hope it's a little bit less than that. i think by tomorrow we'll have our answer.
Love it. Just because a guy has had injuries in the past
Where would they get that # if Phil can't talk to JN until 12:01 AM tonight? Obviously it's JN's agents floating that #. Now $18 mill in this cap year is not extreme but one would hope it's a little bit less than that. i think by tomorrow we'll have our answer.
This. The number is obviously coming from Noah's side, which is fine. For those whiners out there, that is still signifacntly lower than the max, which whiteside will get. We still will have enough room for someone like Courtney lee and a backup pg
Pretty good article breaking down the possible Hornacek offense
It speculates we have 37mill including 4 cap holds. I have seen anywhere from 29 to 37. Hopefully this is close as we would still have 19 mill left over and possibly more if we renounce some of the cap holds.
more and more each year I'm disagreeing with the title or bust philosophy of the NBA. There is no value in being irrelevant. The Knicks have been irrelevant since 2001 minus 2012. There is value in being the Atlanta Hawks. Make the playoffs, maybe win a round. That's fine. There are only 3-4 teams that can win a title anyway. I like the move.
If you learn anything from NBA free agency, the stars will not go to a rebuilding team. They want to go to winning teams, that are just a player or two away.
The Knicks have to make the playoffs, maybe win a round and then the 2017 class: Westbrook, Paul, Lebron, probably Durant again, Curry, Griffin, Lowry.
Also, although Noah can be injury prone, he generally plays 70 gams or so including playoffs. Two years ago, he played in 79 games including the playoffs. Also his injury was his shoulder (not knee or ankle) had surgery, and is supposedly healthy. And he's not 36 or 37, he is 31.
Finally, the money that will be tossed around will make $18m look like a fairly average deal for a player who was defensive player of the year, has won wherever he has played and an ideal teammate.
Noah at 18 million seems high for me, but it is market value. Teams will not be getting Centers cheap. Im curious as to the length of the deal. Would feel much better if it is a 3 year deal.
Core would be:
Noah
Porzingis
Anthony
Rose
Defenitely more skill and ability that Lopez/Porzingis/Anthony/Calderon, but can they stay healthy? Defensively Rose and Noah have proven they are one of the best at defending screen rolls. Clearly this was an objective for the Knicks. Get better in moving defensively and being able to run the floor quicker in transition. As a post sprinter, Noah is much better than Lopez. The only area Lopez is better than Noah is post ups. The rest is either same or Noah is better. I believe a key part of Noahs game that they want over Lopez is the passing skill. Noah has had seasons where he averaged over 5 asssists a game. Really good at setting a pick or coming up into the high post and facilitating. Last year our high man with assists was Melo at 4. If Noah signs, we have two guys here able to help Melo there.
In terms of next year, really could use 1-2 stand out 3 point shooters at the wings. Maybe where rest of the money goes.
Rest assure skill wise Noah is outstanding for a 4th best player, supportimg Center. Thompson of the Cavs makes similar money and is a lesser talent. What Im worried about if we sign Noah is how healthy he will be over his 3-4 year deal. I can not see this being a 1 year deal. Too many teams competing
more and more each year I'm disagreeing with the title or bust philosophy of the NBA. There is no value in being irrelevant. The Knicks have been irrelevant since 2001 minus 2012. There is value in being the Atlanta Hawks. Make the playoffs, maybe win a round. That's fine. There are only 3-4 teams that can win a title anyway. I like the move.
Look, I cant say that the bottom out rebuild model is "better". Except to note how titles tend to be won by teams anchored by very high picks.
BUT... pointing to the last 15 years of Knicks history to back your point is ridiculous. The last 15 years of Knicks history is the evidence FOR doing a proper rebuild rather than trying to get better every year. Knicks didnt blow assets on Francis and McDyess etc. because they wanted to rebuild and be irrelevant; rather those mistakes happened because they were too desperate to be relevant.
Of Eric Gordon. If Knicks manage to get both Noah and Gordon. This will be a high risk injury team that if it can stay healthy will be an extremely talented and well balanced one. Eric Gordon - ( New Window )
(Or proposed one) no matter what it is. Other than Maybe LBJ, Curry or Durant, but they probably would have a problem with that too. How about we need to make changes cause what we have isn't winning? Ever think of that one? Phil has two players (forget KO) committed for next year. Let's give him a shot before putting your "panties" in an uproar!
when he starting talking up the shitty Eastern Conference and basically saying "Why not us?"
It worried me at the time, but I can't get too worked up over essentially trading Lopez, Grant and Calderon for Rose, Noah and Holiday. If they gave Noah four years, it's a problem, but let's wait and see. It's not like they traded a thousand draft picks for a washed up Pierce and KG.
RE: it seems what knicks fans want from the knicks
Every Knick fan wants to build and I believe that's what they are doing. One year contracts to Rose doesn't stop this. Melo has a no trade. What Phil is doing is giving it a shot. If it busts Melo maybe more agreeable to movement (next year?) when we could attract a strong free agent class with a lot of $, and maybe pick up draft choices ( looks to be an extremely strong draft) and continue the rebuild. You can't pull a Philly in NY the Meca of basketball. I believe the plan is still in process around KP.
RE: Love it. Just because a guy has had injuries in the past
(Or proposed one) no matter what it is. Other than Maybe LBJ, Curry or Durant, but they probably would have a problem with that too. How about we need to make changes cause what we have isn't winning? Ever think of that one? Phil has two players (forget KO) committed for next year. Let's give him a shot before putting your "panties" in an uproar!
They aren't winning regardless. You're just shuffling around highly expensive and very fragile deck chairs, and praying they don't play to form and get injured again.
You're just a whinny bitch! If you think Lopez, Grant or Calderon should be part of the rebuild not only are you a constant crybaby but I personally thought you had more intelligence. That being said nothing Phil has done since he has been her jeopardizes our future it only helps. He kept first rounders, got rid of contracts (Chandler, JR, shump, Lopez), stripped us down as is starting to mold his team. All in two years. Give it a chance.
On the fence with this one ,I like noah as a player but I just worry with the injuries. I would really like to see us get Whiteside instead .Btw do the Knicks still own Jimmer Fredettes rights I didnt see him on the summer league roster
Look the issue with Noah is the health. That said other then last year he usually played around 65 games plus the playoffs. If we can get 70 games from him id consider that a win. Look he is a better player then Lopez. Better defender, better rebounder, MUCH better passer (elite big man passer), prolly a slightly worse offensive player, but its not like Lopez is his brother on the offensive end.
Im not going to stress until i see the actual deal. LIke is it 2/36, id be ok with that. Or is it 4/72, id be pissed about that.
Rose Lee Melo kp noah if healthy can be the 2nd best team in the east, that is a pretty big improvement from last year and they will have some more money next to year to add to this Core as well...
If it gets durant then its the greatest move in NBA history.... if it doesnt then it seems we are just moving the goal posts here.
If the Knicks don't get Durant, what are they supposed to do? With KP, Rose and Melo they'll be too good to fully tank anyway. With Noah they have an outside shot at the ECF. Then in 17, with cap room, you never know.
Seems some people are missing the difference in FA in the NBA
& the NFL. The Knicks aren't going to be able to lure the top FA's unless they start winning. 2017 might be the greatest year for star FA's in the NBA. In the NFL, as long as you have cap space,you can blow other teams out of the water(see Olivier Vernon) but in the NBA you can only offer Max which is the same for every team that is not the player's original team. So Phil is putting together what he believes is a winning team, one that hopefully can get to the playoffs.We weren't able to lure Greg Fucking Monroe here last year & KD obviously isn't coming this year.Maybe these moves don't pan out & all the doomsayers on here are right. But, if the Knicks have a good year this year, July 1st, 2017 might be something special.
The Knicks have roughly $30 million to spend in free agency and hope to fit Noah into that space while keeping enough room to add a starting shooting guard. Courtney Lee and Eric Gordon are among the guards the Knicks have a level of interest in, sources say.
RE: RE: it seems what knicks fans want from the knicks
If the Knicks don't get Durant, what are they supposed to do? With KP, Rose and Melo they'll be too good to fully tank anyway. With Noah they have an outside shot at the ECF. Then in 17, with cap room, you never know.
Cap room + strong playoff showing + core pieces locked (Melo/KP/Noah?) = actual chance to add a legit FA, not just the typical offseason BS rumors
this guy is never healthy. Unless he was coming on a 1 year deal i dont want him. Especially when you are already going to have a couple injury risks in the lineup.
RE: it seems what knicks fans want from the knicks
If it gets durant then its the greatest move in NBA history.... if it doesnt then it seems we are just moving the goal posts here.
It's easy to make posts like these when you just take different opinions from different people and mesh them together to make it look like one giant conglomerate of flip flopping.
I want the Knicks to build an actual contender and I don't care how long that takes. I'm not interested in being the Hawks or Bulls of recent years. Teams that make the playoffs but can't get out of the East and have no chance. Winning a playoff round does nothing for me. I'm not interested in that.
Being stuck in NBA purgatory is terrible. If the Knicks can't put together a team that can truly compete, I'd rather they suck and take their chances adding another talented young player in the draft. I've always found it completely pointless to have the goal of "let's just make the playoffs and see what happens" in the NBA. It's an exercise in futility and just leads to spinning your wheels for years.
contract for NYK unless it's only one year. We all know about him missing months at a time for multiple seasons with all sorts of injuries, but even when he plays, his game has been in decline. I think his upside at this point in his career is an energy big off of the bench for a contending team.
If you're going to spend $18M per year for Noah on a 4 year deal you might as well just sign Dwight Howard.
Sean has a point, but he has a completely different reaction to it than I do. It's true, only 3 or 4 teams have a chance at the title every year, but that means that everyone else is irrelevant. The Hawks are every bit as irrelevant as the Knicks. Three or four contenders, and everyone else is a glorified version of the Washington Generals.
RE: Seems some people are missing the difference in FA in the NBA
& the NFL. The Knicks aren't going to be able to lure the top FA's unless they start winning. 2017 might be the greatest year for star FA's in the NBA. In the NFL, as long as you have cap space,you can blow other teams out of the water(see Olivier Vernon) but in the NBA you can only offer Max which is the same for every team that is not the player's original team. So Phil is putting together what he believes is a winning team, one that hopefully can get to the playoffs.We weren't able to lure Greg Fucking Monroe here last year & KD obviously isn't coming this year.Maybe these moves don't pan out & all the doomsayers on here are right. But, if the Knicks have a good year this year, July 1st, 2017 might be something special.
You are correct that you can only draw free agents with winning, but there's quick fixes, which is what we're doing now, and sustainable winning.
Collecting a bunch of veterans with injury concerns isn't winning. it's quick fix. Noah isn't a long term fix. Rose probably isn't. It's fools gold, like the 2012 team that won a lot, but you knew all those players would be gone, and they had no future.
Even if the Knicks have a good season, it'll be because of players that aren't going to be here long term. What free agent is buying into that? You can't sell to a free agent that the NY Knicks know how to build a winner when all they do is chase their tails for big names that have been cast out from their former teams. Just having the desire and willingness to spend money isn't a measure of being able to build a winner. This is probably why they can't get anyone they want to come here.
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
this guy is never healthy. Unless he was coming on a 1 year deal i dont want him. Especially when you are already going to have a couple injury risks in the lineup.
Maybe we sign Gordon and Noah, and then Phil goes into the setting menu and turns off injuries. I used to do that when I played video games.
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
I agree if the money is close. And even if it isnt, I'd rather give D12 term than give Noah term.
The idea that by signing guys who were stars years ago
We're building a winner is laughable. Adding a bunch of guys who weren't that good for teams that couldn't make the playoffs makes the Knicks an eastern conf contender?
RE: RE: Seems some people are missing the difference in FA in the NBA
& the NFL. The Knicks aren't going to be able to lure the top FA's unless they start winning. 2017 might be the greatest year for star FA's in the NBA. In the NFL, as long as you have cap space,you can blow other teams out of the water(see Olivier Vernon) but in the NBA you can only offer Max which is the same for every team that is not the player's original team. So Phil is putting together what he believes is a winning team, one that hopefully can get to the playoffs.We weren't able to lure Greg Fucking Monroe here last year & KD obviously isn't coming this year.Maybe these moves don't pan out & all the doomsayers on here are right. But, if the Knicks have a good year this year, July 1st, 2017 might be something special.
You are correct that you can only draw free agents with winning, but there's quick fixes, which is what we're doing now, and sustainable winning.
Collecting a bunch of veterans with injury concerns isn't winning. it's quick fix. Noah isn't a long term fix. Rose probably isn't. It's fools gold, like the 2012 team that won a lot, but you knew all those players would be gone, and they had no future.
Even if the Knicks have a good season, it'll be because of players that aren't going to be here long term. What free agent is buying into that? You can't sell to a free agent that the NY Knicks know how to build a winner when all they do is chase their tails for big names that have been cast out from their former teams. Just having the desire and willingness to spend money isn't a measure of being able to build a winner. This is probably why they can't get anyone they want to come here.
See, I believe Noah can give the Knicks 3 good years, serve as a mentor at C for KP as he physically develops. I don't think Phil is abandoning long term, I just think he's dealing w/the hand he was dealt which was no #1 in 2 of his first 3 years.Again, the reason they can't get anyone to come here is they aren't winning. When Greg Monroe says no, you know you have to do something to change the landscape. Phil's not mortgaging the future for the present. He hasn't traded away any first round picks. Hernangomez is basically our #1 this year. All things being equal, I'm sure he'd bring in a younger player rather than an older one. But, all things aren't equal so he's trying to balance the present with the future. If he fails, we'll hear "same old Knicks" over & over again but if he succeeds, then the Zen master has returned & next year at this time we can real players for the top stars that are available.
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
I agree with this completely
RE: The idea that by signing guys who were stars years ago
We're building a winner is laughable. Adding a bunch of guys who weren't that good for teams that couldn't make the playoffs makes the Knicks an eastern conf contender?
So if knicks sign Lee as well...
Rose Lee Melo kp noah if healthy can't be the 2nd-4th best team in the east?
Regardless of sport, I hate the idea of signing oft injured guys
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I'd certainly rather have D12 and Joe Johnson/Gordon on a 1 year deal
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I'd certainly rather have D12 and Joe Johnson/Gordon on a 1 year deal
not an option. Signing Dwight to the max means we only have about 9 mil per year left. Gordon isn't signing a 1 year 9 mm deal and I doubt Johnson is either.
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I still think I'd rather have Dwight. I'd feel like with Dwight, KP, Melo and Rose we'd at least be able to "dream" of competing with the Cavs. Yes, it would take a lot of luck and things breaking right but those 4 together is probably the 2nd best team in the East.
Noah/KP/Melo/Lee/Rose is a really solid 5 and can win a couple playoff rounds if things go right but I still don't think it's good enough even if we get "best case".
I'm just looking for highest ceiling at this point.
What's your plan then? Everyone agrees winning brings FA's So...... Since no one wants to sign and free agents (cause they all suck and we won't win anyway) what's the plan? Not put a uniform on? Move the team? Take your ball and go home? All I hear is bitching about Phil and the New York Knicks and no one has a plan. Trade Melo? Ask him first not happening so Go what is it?
I said yesterday that if Noah got into the $18-$20 million range it might be wise to just go after Dwight. Still feel conflicted on it, but the length of the Noah contract will tell the story. If it's four years, I think it's a mistake to give it to him. When you're rebuilding you want contracts that can always be moved later on, like Lopez and, presumably, Courtney Lee. Noah at 4 years/$70+ million is an albatross.
The plan should be to not put big money into players
Going to wake up? This has been the MO since Van Gundy left, trade for names to fill up the Mecca, wins be damned. Dolan has continued to pull strings and I don't for one second think he's not involved despite Phil claiming he is in charge. The risk on Rose is good, he's an expiring contract, still only 27 and capable of rebounding. Throwing cash at Noah long term? Not smart, as was said above he's usually hurt and that won't magically change at 30+. If it's for a year, fine but beyond that it's pointless.
This team still has no shooting guard and no solid depth anywhere, it's a 3 man team at the moment and one is over the hill, one may never be the same and one who shows promise. These may all be band aids while KP develops but this team wont' compete for anything for at least 5 years and if I was a betting man, I'd say until Dolan dies or sells the team.
What's your plan then? Everyone agrees winning brings FA's So...... Since no one wants to sign and free agents (cause they all suck and we won't win anyway) what's the plan? Not put a uniform on? Move the team? Take your ball and go home? All I hear is bitching about Phil and the New York Knicks and no one has a plan. Trade Melo? Ask him first not happening so Go what is it?
For what it's worth, you are posting on a GIANTS Forum. You can't understand why it gets disheartening to have to rely on oft-injured players at key positions?
here are on Noah but there's justifiable concern. I'm personally more optimistic on Noah's outlook. I wanted him in the middle of the season as a potential backup for RoLo but things have really changed since then.
Noah doesn't look like he's going to age all that well. So I'm hoping it's a 3 year deal. Someone said that he's grit player who doesn't have much explosiveness. He's not exactly Zach Randolph. He moves extremely well for a big. Very fluid athlete. I think he's lost a step or two in that regard.
I'm not going to quip about the deal too much if it's only 3 years but I think I'd still rather get Dwight Howard. Because at least we know he's going to be a top 6-7 center this season. Probably 3rd best in the east.
He hated being the 2nd option how is he going to handle being the 3rd or 4th? And at least with noah you got a tough defender next to kp
Did you see how he played this season? He WAS the 4th option in Houston. His scoring was predicated mostly on putbacks, rim running and lobs. Lot less PnR, which is his best skill. And he came away still averaging a double double and shooting 60%. Adapted really well to the roll. And he wanted to come here. What's he think, he's going to become the primary scorer over Melo rose and KP? Doubtful
RE: The plan should be to not put big money into players
who play 50-60 games a year. Let's start there and work our way up.
Agreed. I wasnt for the Rose trade, but at this point it is obvious that we will not commit to the rebuild I want at this point.
That doesnt mean that we have to blow all our money in one shot. Noah for real money at 3-4 years is just a bad bet. You'd have to be a fool to think otherwise. And the NBA has a lot of fools, so someone will probably do it.
Try to sign guys in their 20s to reasonable contracts (adjusted of course for market conditions). If you dont get guys you love, then chase RFAs or do more value signings like last year with leftover cap room.
There are going to be a bunch of guys who dont get the # they want and are willing to take a 1 year deal or a 1+1 to hit the market again next year. 1+1 deals are not a big risk since the cap will go down during Summer 2018. No one will forego 2017 UFA to try again in 2018 unless they suffer a terrible injury.
Howard has huge red flags but that dude can dominate when he wants to. I'd at least want to be able to "dream" that he'd focus here and give us the Dwight we've seen glimpses of in the past.
I'm just not that interest in a 2012/13 Knicks redux and to me, it looks like that's where we're going.
RE: Bulls last year in a year where noah supposedly sucked
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
No way Lee gets 18M. I'd guess 8-12.
If that's the case then it's a different story completely. That's definetly what he SHOULD cost. But Noah SHOULD have costed around $14-15M. We'll find out soon enough
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Then I'd much rather go for Baze than Lee. I just don't want to be locked in long term to two guys north of $30M who have clearly declined the last few seasons. Honestly much rather roll with Thomas at that point and go after reddick next offseason.
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Because once they're drafted it's not a draft pick anymore, so it becomes convenient to use the "not trading 1st rounders" argument to support your argument.
hasn't been paying attention for a few years now. The guy is a flake and has no inner drive. Noah is the opposite. Don't get me wrong, the guy is a risk with his history and style of play, but he's everything this team needs. He's a fiery competitor, a great teammate and fits a role that we need on the court.
Last year was a fluke shoulder injury and if nothing else, it allowed him to heal his lower half. Personally, I hope they don't go 4 years on the deal as that's too much risk, but less than that I can live with. They will still have plenty of room under the cap the next few seasons with Noah on the books. They have 3 players on long term deals, it's not like they will be cap strapped like years past.
This current offseason is NOTHING like ones of the past, not even close. We still have flexibility, we didn't give away any picks and we brought in proven winners.
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Because obviously Phil did not view grant as a future piece..
And I'll ask again what did you think grants ceiling was?
Nobody in their right mind would draw conclusions on a player and close the book on a draft pick after one season of play where he wasn't even developed. It's horrible talent evaluation.
Because obviously Phil did not view grant as a future piece..
You have literally no basis for stating this. Because he was traded, he is not viewed as a future piece? All you know is that the Knicks preferred Rose over Grant/Lopez/Calderon. Maybe Phil had marching orders. Maybe Phil is contemplating his own mortality and views his window as 2 years tops. Maybe he just believes Rose will be fully recovered and that's way better than Grant.
Quote:
And I'll ask again what did you think grants ceiling was?
Why do you keep asking. I've said it time and again -- Reggie Jackson. Similar profiles coming in, similar struggles first year. I'd be pretty surprised if Grant wasnt at least a pretty good 3rd guard, which is valuable too.
Rose is still only 4 years older than grant [/quote]
Subterfuge. One guy has little mileage on him, and the other guy's game has gone way down hill after years of injury. This is a frankly silly point. It's literally one piece of information, ignoring injury and cost control etc.
would complain about the Rose deal. I really don't see any negative. Grant? We got a 2nd and another young prospect back. Lopez? Easily replaced and will be on day 1 of FA. Rose is injury prone? Ok, well he has 1 year to tryout and then we can worry about that. If none of it works out and we suck...ok, we still have our 1st next year.
then throwing him in the triangle, and expecting him to look like a finished product doesn't make sense. Fisher tried to implement a bit of pick and roll, and then Rambis took over and did nothing but try to save his own ass.
and manby of us have said the same thing all week long. Who the hell cares how much they pay Noah. It's. All. About. The. Years.
If they give Noah 18 million I won't give a shit as long as it's one year. Maybe two.
I think it's gonna be a two year deal. It has to be. Phil has been so careful with contracts since coming aboard. It's been the one thing along with KP he has nailed. If he gives out a long term deal to Noah it spits in the face of logic and long term planning. Until they announce the deal I won't panic.
RE: Drafting a player who is a pure pick and roll PG
then throwing him in the triangle, and expecting him to look like a finished product doesn't make sense. Fisher tried to implement a bit of pick and roll, and then Rambis took over and did nothing but try to save his own ass.
I don't disagree with any of this, but somewhat ironically, Grant started to really come on at the end of the year.
And this notion that rose is finished is a little over the top
the more I want Noah here. The most important thing the Knicks should be focusing on is nurturing KP and surrounding this kid with the right leadership. Noah is that guy and so much more.
Think about the last 15 years and how many young rookie knicks came along that showed promise year one only to shit the bed soon after. The Knicks need to do KP right. Even if Noah misses 25 games next season his leadership won't be overlooked here. Sign him. Two years.
Was he was a f ok nished product and did not have a high ceiling, it is why he was not in the same discussion as mudiay...
He showed glimpses last year but all we b heard was he was nba ready right away and he showed nothing last year...
Anybody who thinks any college player is a finish product is a fucking idiot.
There was a knock on Grant that his age probably limited his ceiling. I think that's a real issue but overblown. I think experience is more of a ceiling limiting factor than age. Indeed, I think there are counter arguments based on physical development that would lead you to conclude that in some ways Grant has more upside (ie room for improvement) than Mudiay physically. Mudiay is a better athlete than Grant and that wont change, but his body is more "finished" than Grant's (so dont misunderstand me to be saying Grant has a higher ceiling than Mudiay). Grant never committed to strength training.
I'm fine with adding Rose.. if Noah is a short term deal that's fine too. To me, the bottom line will always be how we're going to build a team that can actually compete and come out of the East, though. I don't want to get stuck in purgatory again where we're not bad enough for lotto picks and not good enough to get past Cleveland.
1 year deal-BRILLIANT
2 year deal-Great deal
3 year deal-I'm a little concerned, but we can live with it
4 year deal-Ok, this is too much risk considering our current flexibility.
and manby of us have said the same thing all week long. Who the hell cares how much they pay Noah. It's. All. About. The. Years.
If they give Noah 18 million I won't give a shit as long as it's one year. Maybe two.
I think it's gonna be a two year deal. It has to be. Phil has been so careful with contracts since coming aboard. It's been the one thing along with KP he has nailed. If he gives out a long term deal to Noah it spits in the face of logic and long term planning. Until they announce the deal I won't panic.
That's mostly right. The real worry is that he gets 3-4 years. And while the smart move is to give 2, there are some hopeless teams out there who could really push the bidding.
I'm fine with adding Rose.. if Noah is a short term deal that's fine too. To me, the bottom line will always be how we're going to build a team that can actually compete and come out of the East, though. I don't want to get stuck in purgatory again where we're not bad enough for lotto picks and not good enough to get past Cleveland.
Rose-Lee-Melo-JP-Noah, barring injury and with a decent bench, is a playoff team this year with more cap space available next year. I think that's closer to contender than purgatory.
Also, the Knicks people are floating that they are interested in Biyombo. To me, they are negotiating years and the Knicks saying they are interested in Biyombo is them telling Noah that we have a plan B.
I would go for DeRosen everything being equal. A SG at 27 and a weak position in the league right now. And Maybe TMoz at the 5. I don't think he leaves Toronto though.
I just don't think he ever becomes a starter in this league and I think the risk on rose was worth it...if he is healthy you got an absolute steal...
If he isn't you let him expire and move on
My point to you wasnt an evaluation of Grant. It was a disagreement with your statement that they havent sacrificed their future "one bit". I dont know how you could say that unless you're declaring Grant a bust after one season.
Bigger picture I think the people who say Grant showed nothing are being foolish. It's that instant gratification element that hurts our ability to team build.
No chance Phil was committing to Conley or Rondo, so he dealt Lopez for a short-term solution at PG and maintained flexibility for next year's loaded class, knowing he could spend money this summer in deeper C and SG markets. It was the exact opposite of a "same old Knicks" quick fix - he actually showed some foresight in making that deal.
You could make a case that Holiday is a better player than Grant.
I would go for DeRosen everything being equal. A SG at 27 and a weak position in the league right now. And Maybe TMoz at the 5. I don't think he leaves Toronto though.
What does Grant have to do with DeRozen? One we already had, cost controlled. The other is a free agent. We could have had both if DeRozen was willing to sign here. And btw, he's made it clear he's resigning in TOR.
I'm fine with adding Rose.. if Noah is a short term deal that's fine too. To me, the bottom line will always be how we're going to build a team that can actually compete and come out of the East, though. I don't want to get stuck in purgatory again where we're not bad enough for lotto picks and not good enough to get past Cleveland.
Rose-Lee-Melo-JP-Noah, barring injury and with a decent bench, is a playoff team this year with more cap space available next year. I think that's closer to contender than purgatory.
It is, but how does it go from "close" to a contender to an actual contender? Can we actually keep Rose long-term and think he's going to stay healthy enough? I think KP is going to keep getting better and be in legit "star" territory in 2 years time but by then Melo is going to get closer to dead weight.
1 year deal-BRILLIANT
2 year deal-Great deal
3 year deal-I'm a little concerned, but we can live with it
4 year deal-Ok, this is too much risk considering our current flexibility.
I agree with this 100% I'll wait for the official numbers before I freak out
the "same old Knicks" haven't made one move indicative of the same old knicks in a while. Rose has one year...etc etc.
Trading a young piece and a good role playing starter for an oft injured (probably fading) star has a lot of same old Knicks ring to it.
This is such a reach. People are trying so hard to fit this narrative, but it's just false. First off, Rose has 1 year on his deal. 1 freakin year. Same ole Knicks would trade for someone that has 7 years because the contra wanted to dump the salary. Secondly, we got a young player and a pick in return and Lopez will be replaced easily on Friday.
on rotoworld from this morning tells me that Phil is negotiating the years and won't go too long(I hope?)
The Knicks are reportedly interested in Bismack Biyombo if they are unable to sign Joakim Noah.
The Knicks are reportedly the front-runners to land Noah, but Biyombo is thought to be the Knicks Plan B if they are unable to land the former Defensive Player of the year. Biyombo's breakout playoff performance will be tantalizing for fantasy owners, but we'll have to wait and see where he lands before assessing his fantasy value for 2016-17.
Is some young asset which needs developing. At 24 you should be in your prime. They are unrelated offering my pick of the free agents.
Well then "everyone" is a fucking idiot. Your prime =/= 23 year old rookie season. If anyone is disappointed that Grant didnt come in as a 23 year old rookie and play with the polish and poise of a 27 year old 8 year vet, well then I dont care about that person's stupid opinion.
I'm fine with adding Rose.. if Noah is a short term deal that's fine too. To me, the bottom line will always be how we're going to build a team that can actually compete and come out of the East, though. I don't want to get stuck in purgatory again where we're not bad enough for lotto picks and not good enough to get past Cleveland.
Rose-Lee-Melo-JP-Noah, barring injury and with a decent bench, is a playoff team this year with more cap space available next year. I think that's closer to contender than purgatory.
It is, but how does it go from "close" to a contender to an actual contender? Can we actually keep Rose long-term and think he's going to stay healthy enough? I think KP is going to keep getting better and be in legit "star" territory in 2 years time but by then Melo is going to get closer to dead weight.
One injury to Lebron? One good FA period in 2017? KP takes the next steps?
It's definitely closer than the other options, which are basically projecting out 3-5 years to when KP is in his prime.
the "same old Knicks" haven't made one move indicative of the same old knicks in a while. Rose has one year...etc etc.
Trading a young piece and a good role playing starter for an oft injured (probably fading) star has a lot of same old Knicks ring to it.
This is such a reach. People are trying so hard to fit this narrative, but it's just false. First off, Rose has 1 year on his deal. 1 freakin year. Same ole Knicks would trade for someone that has 7 years because the contra wanted to dump the salary. Secondly, we got a young player and a pick in return and Lopez will be replaced easily on Friday.
I dont agree. A number of people here dont agree. And a lot of articles written about the trade dont agree. But I'll leave it at that since we've debated the Rose trade to death.
The Knicks past has scarred most of us that we assume the worst. You see that they trade for a former superstar that has red flags and you assume it fits the same description as the many deals that have killed us in the past....Rice, Marbury, Curry, Francis, Zack Randolph and on and on and on.
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
The biggest difference is that Rose isn't going to cripple us long term. He's an expiring contract, unlike all of those bad trades of the past.
with an option for the 3rd year. Hopefully it will be a team option. Can they do something similar to baseball...team option with a buyout if they don't pick it up?
Year 1-16 million
Year 2-20 million
year 3-Team option for 22 million(5 million buyout if not exercised)
Phil is negotiating the years and Noah ends up with 3 years with a player option... Phil sucks as a negotiator.
Right. Short of Noah demanding a S&T so he can get a 5th year, 3+1 is literally the worst option for the team. It's worse than 3. And it's worse than 4.
with an option for the 3rd year. Hopefully it will be a team option. Can they do something similar to baseball...team option with a buyout if they don't pick it up?
Year 1-16 million
Year 2-20 million
year 3-Team option for 22 million(5 million buyout if not exercised)
Can they do something like that in bball?
No, you can't give any raise you want. I believe it's 7.5% a year either direction.
RE: RE: Drafting a player who is a pure pick and roll PG
then throwing him in the triangle, and expecting him to look like a finished product doesn't make sense. Fisher tried to implement a bit of pick and roll, and then Rambis took over and did nothing but try to save his own ass.
I don't disagree with any of this, but somewhat ironically, Grant started to really come on at the end of the year.
I'd be interested to know why you disagree. PG is probably the position affected most by playing in the triangle. He wouldn't be the first player ever to struggle with it at all.
The adjustment from playing on the ball to playing off it shouldn't be downplayed.
15ppg and 8 boards for a 34 year old last year. Why do you say he was terrible? I would have to check his Knicks stats. I don't remember much around him.
I've learned not to listen to the media when it comes to the knicks
The cool thing to do to get ratings is rip the knicks and say how shitty of a move they make is and things like that...
Knicks could sign lebron and they would rip the move, if knicks signed Durant they would say Durant is just after money and the knicks are not going anywhere...
It is the same narrative in every move, Phil got ripped for signing lopez and now he is getting ripped for trading him...
Stephen a basically said if Phil doesn't sign Durant he would have failed...
Lebatard just ripped the knicks for an hour saying they suck and will do nothing meanwhile his heat are going to be fading fast
RE: RE: RE: Drafting a player who is a pure pick and roll PG
then throwing him in the triangle, and expecting him to look like a finished product doesn't make sense. Fisher tried to implement a bit of pick and roll, and then Rambis took over and did nothing but try to save his own ass.
I don't disagree with any of this, but somewhat ironically, Grant started to really come on at the end of the year.
I'd be interested to know why you disagree. PG is probably the position affected most by playing in the triangle. He wouldn't be the first player ever to struggle with it at all.
The adjustment from playing on the ball to playing off it shouldn't be downplayed.
Read it again. It was a double negative. I do not disagree with your statement.
The Knicks past has scarred most of us that we assume the worst. You see that they trade for a former superstar that has red flags and you assume it fits the same description as the many deals that have killed us in the past....Rice, Marbury, Curry, Francis, Zack Randolph and on and on and on.
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
The biggest difference is that Rose isn't going to cripple us long term. He's an expiring contract, unlike all of those bad trades of the past.
You cant say Grant wont be a major piece.
I dont get why everyone is so happy about Rose just being signed for one year. That's a DOWNSIDE. I'd be happier if he was signed for 2 years, maybe 3. There is runaway inflation in the NBA. His one year deal limits the upside of the trade.
The problem with trading for Francis, McDyess etc. wasnt the minutia of their contract lengths. It was the reality of trading young/cost controlled assets (picks, players) for guys who were once huge stars but were already felled by injury when we got them. If you dont see that parallels with the Rose trade at all then you're the one who is stretching to define recent Knicks history as unrelated to this trade.
RE: RE: I'm going to guess that it will be a 2 year deal
with an option for the 3rd year. Hopefully it will be a team option. Can they do something similar to baseball...team option with a buyout if they don't pick it up?
Year 1-16 million
Year 2-20 million
year 3-Team option for 22 million(5 million buyout if not exercised)
Can they do something like that in bball?
No, you can't give any raise you want. I believe it's 7.5% a year either direction.
I meant more specifically the buyout, not necessarily the amount of the raise which really doesn't matter.
The Knicks past has scarred most of us that we assume the worst. You see that they trade for a former superstar that has red flags and you assume it fits the same description as the many deals that have killed us in the past....Rice, Marbury, Curry, Francis, Zack Randolph and on and on and on.
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
The biggest difference is that Rose isn't going to cripple us long term. He's an expiring contract, unlike all of those bad trades of the past.
You cant say Grant wont be a major piece.
I dont get why everyone is so happy about Rose just being signed for one year. That's a DOWNSIDE. I'd be happier if he was signed for 2 years, maybe 3. There is runaway inflation in the NBA. His one year deal limits the upside of the trade.
The problem with trading for Francis, McDyess etc. wasnt the minutia of their contract lengths. It was the reality of trading young/cost controlled assets (picks, players) for guys who were once huge stars but were already felled by injury when we got them. If you dont see that parallels with the Rose trade at all then you're the one who is stretching to define recent Knicks history as unrelated to this trade.
I never said Grant won't ever be a major piece. That's like me telling you that you can't say Holiday and the 2nd rounder won't ever be a major piece. All I am saying is that he's not a major piece now. He's still a young prospect with upside(somewhat limited) that I don't believe had a lot of trade value.
1. He's going to be motivated to get another deal.
2. He gets a 1 year tryout and then we can hold his rights.
3. There are a few top level PG's available in FA next year.
The Knicks past has scarred most of us that we assume the worst. You see that they trade for a former superstar that has red flags and you assume it fits the same description as the many deals that have killed us in the past....Rice, Marbury, Curry, Francis, Zack Randolph and on and on and on.
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
The biggest difference is that Rose isn't going to cripple us long term. He's an expiring contract, unlike all of those bad trades of the past.
You cant say Grant wont be a major piece.
I dont get why everyone is so happy about Rose just being signed for one year. That's a DOWNSIDE. I'd be happier if he was signed for 2 years, maybe 3. There is runaway inflation in the NBA. His one year deal limits the upside of the trade.
The problem with trading for Francis, McDyess etc. wasnt the minutia of their contract lengths. It was the reality of trading young/cost controlled assets (picks, players) for guys who were once huge stars but were already felled by injury when we got them. If you dont see that parallels with the Rose trade at all then you're the one who is stretching to define recent Knicks history as unrelated to this trade.
I never said Grant won't ever be a major piece. That's like me telling you that you can't say Holiday and the 2nd rounder won't ever be a major piece. All I am saying is that he's not a major piece now. He's still a young prospect with upside(somewhat limited) that I don't believe had a lot of trade value.
You literally said "he's still not a major piece".
My biggest fear is actually Rose having a really good year. Because then it'll lead to us giving him a max to stay and he'll probably wind up getting hurt again beyond the point of "well, no big deal, it was just a short term commitment"
The fact of the matter is, you build NBA rosters around 3 maybe 4 guys, and everyone else is pretty interchangeable. You can find guys like Grant and Lopez easier than someone like Rose, even if he isn't his old self.
He's a prospect that needs to get a lot better. There is no guarantee he will.
In the context of your argument, that's a very silly point. By the same token, all draft pieces are not a major piece because theyre not even players, they're just a right to select a player in the future. How then were you differentiating Grant from a draft pick when you said:
Quote:
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
I dont get the efforts to minimize the give for Rose. Unless Chicago is stupid, it stands to reason that either (1) Rose had no value because he's shit, or (2) Chicago got a valuable return for him. The attempt to portray the Rose trade as us getting a very good player and giving nothing of significant value (and argument I attribute to several posters, so this isnt Keith specific) is just fantasy.
But Deej, by the same logic shouldnt your love of Grant and Lopez prove that Rose has some value? Yes, I agree he has value. I think it was a dumb bet for the Knicks though.
One would think the obviously leading candidate is OKC
for the 1+1 deal. You remain at worst the #2 team in the western conference, you have another year with Westbrook, and you can make the most money staying in a place you're on record as considering to be home.
The maximum potential dollar value is significantly more if he stays in OKC.
RE: One would think the obviously leading candidate is OKC
for the 1+1 deal. You remain at worst the #2 team in the western conference, you have another year with Westbrook, and you can make the most money staying in a place you're on record as considering to be home.
The maximum potential dollar value is significantly more if he stays in OKC.
Yes, although there is talk they're taking a run at Horford. If they can move Kanter for no significant salary in return (I think fairly easily in this market), it's really doable. I think it's just Kanter and either waiving Ilyasova or not signing Waiters or if they can get a Singler buyer.
If Horford goes there Durant may just reup long term and call it a day. That team is the best in the NBA. It's a fucking powerhouse. Adams-Horford-Durant-Oladipo-Westbrook with Payne, Ilyasova, and others off the bench? Just yikes.
There is no effort to minimize what we gave Chicago
because we didn't give them much. Grant is certainly not a major piece in any trade. He barely played for 3/4 of the season and showed flashes that he will progress to be a rotational player.
because we didn't give them much. Grant is certainly not a major piece in any trade. He barely played for 3/4 of the season and showed flashes that he will progress to be a rotational player.
Again, we got back a young player and a pick.
You keep trying to act as if a second round pick- which can be easily bought and a d league player are any kind of asset but a guy who was the 19th pick in the draft is meaningless?
Minimal is what I would use. He had a year in the league to see what he was and he showed to be extremely raw and limited, although he certainly has some talents.
I keep bringing up the 2nd rounder AND Holiday to refute that this is the same ole Knicks.
His team was undeniably worse with him on the floor the off. Those who think Rose is an all star type PG are in for a rude rude awakening in a few months. There is no big 3 here and the odds of him regaining his old form are very slim.
Minimal is what I would use. He had a year in the league to see what he was and he showed to be extremely raw and limited, although he certainly has some talents.
I keep bringing up the 2nd rounder AND Holiday to refute that this is the same ole Knicks.
But Holiday and a 2nd round pick are the definition of meaningless. It doesn't refute anyhing.
with young unknown talent than older talent with some injury risk. Either way the odds of winning a ring are incredibly slim and require a lot of luck. However if Rose can get to all star form, Noah returns to pre-injury form, KP takes a big step and Carmelo still is most of Carmelo, the Knicks have a very real chance at a title.
Is that likely? No, but neither is landing a franchise player by tanking year after year as so many fans are in favor of. And Robin Lopez and Jarien Fn Grant don't give you a better chance at a ring then Rose. There may be more downside with Rose, but there's certainly more upside. And championships are all about best case scenarios.
RE: The plan should be to not put big money into players
who play 50-60 games a year. Let's start there and work our way up.
I asked a couple of days ago. What was the plan and when did it change? Listening to Joe Benigno today. He summed it up. The plan is that Phil said "I am Phil Jackson and I can not leave NYC without ever making the playoffs"
is to open the 2017 season with a starting lineup of Russell Westbrook, Courtney Lee, Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis and Joakim Noah. I'm willing to put the tank on hold until we see what the summer of 2017 brings.
you should build a winning team sooner rather than later. I think Phil has done a great job of building a good team around Melo(so far), while keeping our long term flexibility.
the tandem of Rose/Holliday/noah make you a much better team than that of Grant/Lopez/Calderon.
We dont have Noah. If we get Noah, it will be at substantially more salary cost than the threesome we shipped out. So why wouldnt the far comp be, say, Rose/Holiday/Noah to Grant/Lopez/Calderon/Bazemore?
Also, with Rose you put all your eggs in the 2016-17 basket, whereas Grant was going to give cost controlled production for years to come (possibly, of course).
Also, it's far from clear that you're even right. I wouldnt bet on Noah being better than Lopez going forward with any confidence. Rose has way more talent than the Knicks two guards. But Rose's WS for the last three seasons is -.2, 1.2, and .4. Calderon was 4.0 last season. Grant was .8 (Reggie Jackson was a .1 in year on, 2.5 in year 2). Let us not crown Rose as the MVP reborn just yet please. It's a win now move that doesnt obviously make us better.
Completely Forgot about Biyombo. I think for the same cost I'd go for him over Noah. It's probably about the same amount of risk but his prime will line up with KP's. He can switch screens and protect the rim which is pretty ideal for a modern big
the tandem of Rose/Holliday/noah make you a much better team than that of Grant/Lopez/Calderon.
We dont have Noah. If we get Noah, it will be at substantially more salary cost than the threesome we shipped out. So why wouldnt the far comp be, say, Rose/Holiday/Noah to Grant/Lopez/Calderon/Bazemore?
Also, with Rose you put all your eggs in the 2016-17 basket, whereas Grant was going to give cost controlled production for years to come (possibly, of course).
Also, it's far from clear that you're even right. I wouldnt bet on Noah being better than Lopez going forward with any confidence. Rose has way more talent than the Knicks two guards. But Rose's WS for the last three seasons is -.2, 1.2, and .4. Calderon was 4.0 last season. Grant was .8 (Reggie Jackson was a .1 in year on, 2.5 in year 2). Let us not crown Rose as the MVP reborn just yet please. It's a win now move that doesnt obviously make us better.
You are absolutely not going all in for 2016 with Rose. In fact, he's the exact opposite, in that it's an expiring deal. If he sucks, you move on next year and make a play for Westbrook, Lowry, etc.
And we all agree on one thing (gulp) here's to hopefully improving our team in the short and long term!!! We all love our Knicks (minus some Net fans), Let's hope we get better! Get a few pieces to the puzzle so we don't waste our summer watching summer league and praying we get this guy or that guy. In Phil we Trust! (Unless he fucks up)!!!!!!!!
Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
and if he signs with the Knicks he plays most of the games. If it's 3 years or less I like the idea of him being a leader for the Knicks and mentoring KP.
Haha, that's a long shot. But I love Biyombo. He brings big energy. Watching him smile everytime he made a play in the playoffs was quite something. He is pretty much a 6'9" version of Deandre Jordan. Except FTs isn't an issue.
every time a rumor gets floated about the Knicks the fans go fucking ape shit and cry about Dolan and same old Knicks. Not once under Phil has ANY of these so called horrible rumors come to fruition. Not one. Even the Rose deal only really stings because of Grant. We got a pick back in case anyone forgot.
Let the deal get announced first before some of you tell us to wake the hell up. Wake up from what? You're the one living in a made up nightmare by some twitter feed. You should wake up and let reality dictate things.
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
It says a lot that the Rose trade and FA have inspired this much
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
some of us fail to admit that there's risk with everything. If Phil sits back and goes scorched earth it's a risk. The Knicks could sit in the lottery for the next 5 years and have NOTHING to show for it. They could win a combined 120 games over 5 years if they did things the "right way."
Not signing Noah comes with a risk. The Knicks may not be able to sign another center if they lose out on Noah. Maybe they are stuck signing Mozgov for close to the same amount and maybe Phil feels that a leader like Noah is crucial to KP's development.
Not trading for Rose brings risk. The KNicks have no PG on the roster and Grant is unproven to say the least. If you go into the 2016 season with no playmaker at PG the team will be lucky to win 40 games even if things break right. They had to do something. There was limited FA talent at PG this summer.
IT's easy to sit here and bash every move when just about every move comes with risk. Phil is doing what he can to improve the team without obliterating the cap flexibility. Good luck with that. And thanks to the prior regimes for trading all of our fucking draft picks.
how could it possibly be true? What about tampering rules?
Anyone have an answer for this?
Just a guess, but perhaps Noah's reps leaked that number to put some public pressure on the Knicks or other potential suitors? Though I'd imagine there is a great deal of tampering that goes on.
Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
I am not being intentionally dense, I am however refuting the garbage that you are spewing.
So you are saying that the Knicks would have been better off not making this trade and instead maxing out Bazemore? So Calderon, Bazemore, Melo, KP, Lopez is a team you want to go to battle with???
RE: RE: The plan should be to not put big money into players
who play 50-60 games a year. Let's start there and work our way up.
I asked a couple of days ago. What was the plan and when did it change? Listening to Joe Benigno today. He summed it up. The plan is that Phil said "I am Phil Jackson and I can not leave NYC without ever making the playoffs"
It has been about Phil's rep and legacy.
That's a complete and utter steaming pile of bullshit. And Joe Beningo is a total idiot when it comes to his own teams and objectivity. The guy is literally incapable of rational thought when it comes to the Mets, Knicks, Rangers and Jets. Fact.
Phil hasn't done one thing to indicate he's in panic win now mode. Even the trade for Rose is more of a shot in the dark--low risk medium reward type move. Rose is a stop gap addition because we had NOTHING at guard.
Phil's legacy is fully established. The guy will be remembered as the most successful HC of all time. He's taking the long game here with the Knicks and every move he made, save for MAYBE the Rose deal, screams long game. And even the Rose deal is more in the middle with very little long term downside.
Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
I am not being intentionally dense, I am however refuting the garbage that you are spewing.
So you are saying that the Knicks would have been better off not making this trade and instead maxing out Bazemore? So Calderon, Bazemore, Melo, KP, Lopez is a team you want to go to battle with???
No, I was doing a more apples for apples comparison. Rose + Noah was not a fair comp to Lopez + Grant + JC because the later group would give us 18 million more cap space this year. So I threw out a name that would cost about that much and fill another hole (Bazemore).
I dont want to go to battle with Rose and Noah, so there's that. Rose and Noah and Melo and KP aint winning a title. Given the likelihood of injury Im not even sure it gets you a home court round in the playoffs.
If I had my druthers we'd trade Melo. That's not on the table, and I get that. But I'd almost pretend like he isnt there. Sign a Bazemore if you like him. Sign a RFA and hope the other team doesnt match. Build on young, tradable assets.
I don't know who all these great players are that we can spend our cap money on. Bazemore? Clearly players aren't lining up to play with Lopez and Calderon. Seems like Rose has already brought interest.
Phil did a great job balancing Melo's career path without mortgaging the future at all. It's really that simple. I don't know what else we could have done considering our circumstances.
isn't every GM in this thing to cement his legacy?
Many Knicks fans hate Phil Jackson and can't wait to shovel dirt on this guy if he fucks up here in NY. Even some posters on this thread, some of them will, some of them won't admit it, but many on here hate Jackson and look for anything to get on his case.
When I see someone say Phil is only in this for his legacy it only cements my belief. OF course he's in it for his legacy, he wants to win. He wants to fix the Knicks. That's a good thing isn't it?
They are all in it for their legacy. Ernie Accorsi traded the sun, moon and stars for Eli so he could catch his white whale and cement his legacy. Thankfully it worked.
I feel confident that this year's team will be better than last years'
I don't know who all these great players are that we can spend our cap money on. Bazemore? Clearly players aren't lining up to play with Lopez and Calderon. Seems like Rose has already brought interest.
Phil did a great job balancing Melo's career path without mortgaging the future at all. It's really that simple. I don't know what else we could have done considering our circumstances.
Has he? It's not even clear we'll get a meeting with either of the two most coveted UFAs.
You can make the case that the two trips are very similar in terms of talent however durant as a 4th with the clippers is far superior then as a 4th with the Knicks. Just a much better fit
Them all but tidbits from ESPN in case no one mentioned:
Grizzlies confident about Conley returning and are to go after parsons.
Thunder plan to make a run for Horford and have a 2nd meeting secured after his 5 meetings with other teams.
Obviously Knicks over everything, but KD and Russ are probably my two favorite players in the league. Would love for them to get Horford if neither come to NY I wanna see them finish their primes in OKC.
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
I don't think so.
But does that matter since it's the east? I think the upside of that being the 3rd or even 2nd season is very real.
I think the downside (injuries, Noah putting up identical season to last, etc.) is also very real.
Are you guys high? CP3, Griffin and Jordan are undoubtably worlds better then any trio of the Knicks, and in terms of court impact probably better then all 4 combined.
You can make a case that the Clippers have the 3 best players period, and even if you put Melo above Jordan, the difference between Griffin and whoever and Chris Paul and Rose is worlds. Paul, Griffin and Jordan are all top 25-30 players in the NBA, with CP3 and Griffin somewhere in the top 10. Rose, Noah and KP are not top 50 players in the NBA. Are they even top 100 players? Maybe KP is, not so sure about the other two.
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
I don't think so.
But does that matter since it's the east? I think the upside of that being the 3rd or even 2nd season is very real.
I think the downside (injuries, Noah putting up identical season to last, etc.) is also very real.
Are you guys high? CP3, Griffin and Jordan are undoubtably worlds better then any trio of the Knicks, and in terms of court impact probably better then all 4 combined.
You can make a case that the Clippers have the 3 best players period, and even if you put Melo above Jordan, the difference between Griffin and whoever and Chris Paul and Rose is worlds. Paul, Griffin and Jordan are all top 25-30 players in the NBA, with CP3 and Griffin somewhere in the top 10. Rose, Noah and KP are not top 50 players in the NBA. Are they even top 100 players? Maybe KP is, not so sure about the other two.
Excuse me, I read that wrong. I read it flipped. the clips trio is def better than that Knicks foursome (especially if you add reddick to the clips).
I'm not sure if that was supposed to be in context to where KD would fit. The clips would likely have to cut bait with Griffin to make that work.
And clippers can really clear the cap space while keeping the big 3 I would sign with the clippers.
Clippers cannot offer KD the max if they keep their big 3. Literally impossible.
Lets assume the most Clips friendly cap -- $93 million. KD's max then is $27.9 mill. Big 3 make 64.1 million. Assume they could get rid over everyone and take no salary back. They'd still have ghost holds of the rookie minimum * 7 roster spots (13-big 3 and KD). At 543,471 each, it's 3.8 million.
64.1 + 3.8 + 27.9 = 2.8 million over the cap. Durant would have to leave 2.8 million on the table, and sign up for a team of 4 guys plus everyone else on the minimum.
Paul, Griffin, Jordan>Rose, Melo, Noah, KP and it's not close until I see what version of Rose we are getting. If it's Rose of a few years ago, it's most certainly close.
Paul, Griffin, Jordan>Rose, Melo, Noah, KP and it's not close until I see what version of Rose we are getting. If it's Rose of a few years ago, it's most certainly close.
So you're holding out hope that the Bulls traded us the MVP version of Rose?
I can't remember (last year) if we started hearing stuff tonight, or was it after the 1st. Anyone remember when reports started to come out?
Believe that there will be leaked reports throughout the day. Just stay up for like 40 minutes after midnight. There's gonna be a flurry of transactions
but I am not expecting 2015 Rose which seems to be the opinion of some here. If Rose is 75% of MVP Rose, then the comparisons to the Clippers certainly are close.
but I am not expecting 2015 Rose which seems to be the opinion of some here. If Rose is 75% of MVP Rose, then the comparisons to the Clippers certainly are close.
Rose is the big wild card in this equation. If Rose is a bit better than 2015 second half Rose (which is entirely possibly health permitting) and KP making the expected progression than I take the Knicks 4 some as better than the Clips trio.
Darren Wolfson @DWolfsonKSTP
(1/2) Local NBA FA buzz: Orono HS alum Jon Leuer has the Suns, Lakers, + NYK, among teams interested. Good under-the-radar FA, IMO.
Darren Wolfson @DWolfsonKSTP
(1/2) Local NBA FA buzz: Orono HS alum Jon Leuer has the Suns, Lakers, + NYK, among teams interested. Good under-the-radar FA, IMO.
That'd be cool. Leuer is what we should be looking at for backups. Good shooter, tough, Badger.
I can't remember (last year) if we started hearing stuff tonight, or was it after the 1st. Anyone remember when reports started to come out?
You will hear rumors of who is interested in who, who called who things like that, maybe a couple of meetings taking place...
I think and this is just my opinion that the knicks have their deal in place with noah for the most part and are meeting someone else at midnight, that is why Noah's meeting is tomorrow afternoon
is also a great fit for the Clippers with his dead-eye shooting from 3-- also better than whatever fourth option the knicks currently have.
If the keep Paul, Blake, Jordan, and JJ, Durant's maximum contract is down to $18 million.
Is it worth considering scenarios where Durant is taking 18 million? Because I could stack a lot of teams if Durant is leaving $10 million on the table.
but I am not expecting 2015 Rose which seems to be the opinion of some here. If Rose is 75% of MVP Rose, then the comparisons to the Clippers certainly are close.
Still not close. You'd still have at best one of the top 4 players. How is it even close? Who is 75% of MVP Rose better then of the Clippers 3?
RE: RE: Hopefully it's a legitimate starting 2-guard
Tim MacMahon @espn_macmahon
Source tells @MarcJSpearsESPN that Nic Batum will meet with Hornets and Mavs in Dallas and will talk to Knicks, Lakers, Wizards on phone.
RE: RE: RE: Hopefully it's a legitimate starting 2-guard
Wait what combo guard are you referring to? Galloway?
No one in the roster in particular. Just, who's the last legitimate complete 2-guard the Knicks actually have had?
Jamal Crawford?
Hornacek said he wanted a legit 3 and d guy, someone who can knock down an open shot because between rose and melo the 2 guard is going to get a lot of open 3s
RE: RE: RE: Hopefully it's a legitimate starting 2-guard
makes the most sense for him. They have a good title chance, maybe great if the upgrade Kanter to Horford. It will preserve his ability to get the highest possible contract -- 5 year deal w/ Bird rights next offseason.
Good for the Knicks too. IMO this isnt the year for us to try to land a superstar UFA. It's next year, if somehow we really look good. E.g. KP breaks out, Rose looks like he's a star, and maybe a free agent signing really works out.
"His decision is 90 percent made. It would take an amazing sales pitch to change it," said one of Durant's longtime friends.
Another Durant colleague said, "It's going to take some sweet-talking to get him to pass up all the money he can get by staying in OKC."
"His decision is 90 percent made. It would take an amazing sales pitch to change it," said one of Durant's longtime friends.
Another Durant colleague said, "It's going to take some sweet-talking to get him to pass up all the money he can get by staying in OKC."
This is the relevant point. I believe the numbers are something like $54-56m he would be leaving on the table by not re-signing in OKC vs what he could make from any other team.
surprised he's likely staying to be honest, only because he doesn't strike me as someone who is swayed by money.
What were his options if he wanted to win? OKC is as good a situation in the league outside of GS or SA, which wouldn't make sense for a few other reasons. Why would he leave a team that has a good chance of winning it all next season?
Win it all this season, not even considering their Horford pursuit.
The Cavs. Until someone improves in the East, it's the Cavs. Because OKC, GSW, and SAS need to get thru at least one of those teams (and if not them, probably a good LAC or MEM or other team as the 4 seed). Just to get to the Cavs, who have the best player. Cavs just have such an easier path. I probably under rate the Raptors, but the West is still way harder.
were always going to be for next FA after a 1+1 with OKC.
Next offseason will be bonkers. Curry will likely resign (but who knows -- he may want his meetings). OKC's top 2 come free. Blake and CP3 can opt out. Hayward, Lowry, Milsap too. Ibaka and Rose could have come back years.
surprised he's likely staying to be honest, only because he doesn't strike me as someone who is swayed by money.
What were his options if he wanted to win? OKC is as good a situation in the league outside of GS or SA, which wouldn't make sense for a few other reasons. Why would he leave a team that has a good chance of winning it all next season?
chance that KD signs, I have no idea what the Knicks are trying to do. Is the aim to hope that KP improves a ton and with this squad we become a 45+ win team? It's the lack of a coherent way forward that's most troubling about this offseason.
chance that KD signs, I have no idea what the Knicks are trying to do. Is the aim to hope that KP improves a ton and with this squad we become a 45+ win team? It's the lack of a coherent way forward that's most troubling about this offseason.
If rose and noah are healthy and they had a SG like Courtney lee no reason why this team can't be a 2-4 seed in the east...
And then you either let rose go or sign him and you still have another 15 to 20 million to spend
chance that KD signs, I have no idea what the Knicks are trying to do. Is the aim to hope that KP improves a ton and with this squad we become a 45+ win team? It's the lack of a coherent way forward that's most troubling about this offseason.
If rose and noah are healthy and they had a SG like Courtney lee no reason why this team can't be a 2-4 seed in the east...
And then you either let rose go or sign him and you still have another 15 to 20 million to spend
When you're committing big money and assets to gambles on health to try and top out in a weak conference (if that is indeed the "plan"), then count me out.
So going from 32 wins to 2nd in the east is a bad thing?
surprised he's likely staying to be honest, only because he doesn't strike me as someone who is swayed by money.
What were his options if he wanted to win? OKC is as good a situation in the league outside of GS or SA, which wouldn't make sense for a few other reasons. Why would he leave a team that has a good chance of winning it all next season?
I thought he would stay anyways but the oladipo trade probably sealed it and the news about horford made him cream his pants.
There are likely no magic elixir moves that will vault the Knicks to elite stats and Phil and the Knicks didn't have many opportunities to vault the team to elite status because prior regimes traded away picks. That's a fact. So the next time you complain and say you can't get behind any of these moves ask yourself what moves are even out there to be made? Last year included.
Even if they sign a guy like Noah, hopefully not a long term risk, The Knicks are basically taking baby steps to get better. There's nothing wrong with that. They took a flier on rose without really risking anything long term. Hopefully rose can upgrade the guard spot it's sorely needed.
Depending on who the 2 guard is, I see 45-50 wins next year
as long as the starting 5 stay relatively healthy. By that I mean 75 games for KP, 70+ for Melo and Rose, and 65+ for Noah. If they some how land Batum, I could see a couple more than 50 wins.
As was noted earlier, the cap will jump again next year, we will be able to make an educated decision on Rose, and should have a much easier time recruiting a marquee free agent next July coming off of a 45+ win season.
Nobody thinks these moves make the Knicks a title contender this year, but it's a more likely route to get there in the future than to just keep losing and hope the ping pong balls fall the right way.
If the Knicks drop multi max deals here but then we'd have to hope and pray the moves pay off. I don't sense it though. I think they will sign Noah to 2-3 year deal and a guy like Lee. They will then hope the team respnds to horn and at the same time possess all picks and (hopefully) cap room.
Joakim Noah - F/C - Bulls
Joakim Noah is reportedly "99 percent sure" that he'll join the Knicks as an unrestricted free agent.
Noah will meet with the Knicks on Friday, but it seems all but certain the New York native will be returning home this summer. Noah is reportedly set to earn an annual salary in the $18 million range, although Phil Jackson is trying to convince him to sign something closer to $15-$16 million in order to keep their options open of bringing in another impactful player during free agency. Noah will be the starting center in New York, but his injury history will make him a risky mid-round gamble on draft day.
Both of them healthy will get you a lot more wins. Remember, outside Cleveland, the East fucking blows.
(responding to everyone)
Lopez was a 6 win player. How many wins is Noah netting you at center? Assuming he doesnt match his career best season, at best Noah gets you +3 wins. Derrick Rose? Again, his 2nd best season is a net +2 wins over Calderon last year. Lets fib and call it +4 just for fun. You've gained 7 wins. Knock off one though because Grant is gone and Holiday isnt anything.
So net six wins. Who are you adding on top of that? I think Bazemore and Batum are unlikely. Bazemore's best season is 4 wins. Lets call him 5 here to be generous. Now you're +11 wins (Batum might net you 6; Lee 4) being generous. But the rest of your roster under performs last year. Williams (3.6 wins) and AA (2.7) cost 13 million, and with Noah and Baze/Batum, there isnt money to pay for premium depth. So you end up with a bunch of 0-2 win players, who dont net you anything over last year's 0-2 win players. So you're back down to +5 wins. Lets put our thumb on the scale again and say +8. Im REALLY being generous.
So to get to 57 wins and ~the #2 seed, Melo and KP have to get ~17 wins better. Melo was a 6.4 win player last year; best ever year was 10.7. I dont thnk he's in for a career year, but fuck it, lets give him 5 more wins. Now KP needs to create a minimum of 12 wins over his 4 from last year. Is KP a 16 win player in year 2? Usually 16 wins is better than the 2nd best player in the NBA. If I take my thumb off the scale from above he needs to be a low-20s win player, which means better than LeBron has ever been.
There is simply no plausible was for us to get the depth to be a 57 win team unless we hit 3-5 home runs in very cheap signings. Minimum salary guys who weirdly give 3-4 win performances.
to stop treating individual players as "wins". That's just not how it works in basketball. Players are dependent on each other and fit is vital. Probably moreso than any other sport.
A Rose-Lee-Melo-KP-Noah team "fits" together well, and there is plenty of reason to think the whole will be greater than the sum is its parts. The 3rd seed in the east won 48 games last year. I think this is a 50-55 win team, which should be in the 2-4 range in the East.
Is that a sure fire title contender? No. But barring signing Durant, what is the path to that that we can't still achieve. As I mentioned earlier, building NBA teams is 90% about what core 3-4 guys you can get in place, and everyone else is interchangeable. Lopez and Grant are never going to be apart of a core 3-4 guys on an NBA title team.
Eric Gordon, but his injury history scares me a bit. Him and Noah wouldn't be a bad haul. I don't know if they coudl fit Noah and Batum but that would be the dream scenario at this point (obviously KD out of mix).
Is leaning towards the Mavericks according to Bleacher Report.
They may not win 25 more games, but 48 wins got you the 3rd seed last year. I don't think an extra 16-17 wins is impossible. Especially if we had a decent SG. Obviously that's providing our guys stay healthy. Noah is a better player then RoLo. Rose is much better then Calderon. Melo should benefit from having those 2. KP is going to get better.
to stop treating individual players as "wins". That's just not how it works in basketball. Players are dependent on each other and fit is vital. Probably moreso than any other sport.
A Rose-Lee-Melo-KP-Noah team "fits" together well, and there is plenty of reason to think the whole will be greater than the sum is its parts. The 3rd seed in the east won 48 games last year. I think this is a 50-55 win team, which should be in the 2-4 range in the East.
Is that a sure fire title contender? No. But barring signing Durant, what is the path to that that we can't still achieve. As I mentioned earlier, building NBA teams is 90% about what core 3-4 guys you can get in place, and everyone else is interchangeable. Lopez and Grant are never going to be apart of a core 3-4 guys on an NBA title team.
Eh, it kind of is how it works. Sure there is some chemistry. But win shares explain a lot of teams records. They're not predictive, but I programmed in a lot of wiggle room. Fact is it will be very hard for us to fill out a decent roster that could let us get to high 50s wins. If we sign Noah and Lee, MAYBE would could make one Williams level signing. If it is Noah and Baze/Batum, very unlikely.
IMO 57 wins is magic thinking, barring Rose being a near MVP level player. Next best plan to get to 57 is probably one signing like a Noah/Baze type and then 3-5 guys for like 4-5 million each. Depth is really important.
Is leaning towards the Mavericks according to Bleacher Report.
They may not win 25 more games, but 48 wins got you the 3rd seed last year. I don't think an extra 16-17 wins is impossible. Especially if we had a decent SG. Obviously that's providing our guys stay healthy. Noah is a better player then RoLo. Rose is much better then Calderon. Melo should benefit from having those 2. KP is going to get better.
I wouldnt bet the over, but I dont think 48 wins is a crazy outcome.
Noah/Willy
KP/O'Quinn
Melo/Thomas
Lee/Galloway/Holiday
Rose/Vasquez (or someone of the like)
That's far from a terrible bench. No one there will win 6th man of the year, but there are decent backups at each position and a lot of two way players.
I think they could go up by 15 wins or so if we land Noah,
We have money, we have attractive pieces, the three guys, so I feel pretty confident were going to get a good player, Hornacek said Thursday after summer-league practice. With the addition of Derrick Rose, we have Melo and Kristaps, its an attractive place to come. We got a great crop to work around to help us back into the playoffs.
Hornacek said the triangle offense is sweet for a center, and Robin Lopez proved that last season when he emerged as a major low-post option. That is expected to be conveyed to Noah at the meeting as the Knicks look to add a big, scrappy body next to 7-foot-3 forward Kristaps Porzingis. The free-agent recruiting period begins at 12:01 a.m. Friday, but the Knicks wont be burning the midnight oil with Noah.
Hornacek was asked about his sales pitch to the elite centers.
The biggest thing for the guys is look at some of the main components we have, Hornacek said. If they know they can go to a team that can win, that helps. We obviously want to solidify the defense from that spot. Robin was a guy who was very good at protecting the basket. We want that. We want a guy who can do it all. You cant be one-dimensional in this league.
Hes got to have a little bit of ability whether he can finish underneath, move around, make some midrange shots. We want that ability, Hornacek added. Not just be a guy whos going to set picks all the time, but going to be involved a little bit more than a lot of teams in the league. A lot of those [triangle] aspects, youre going to have touches and make plays out of it. Maybe in early offense, in the open court, now you can set some picks and roll.
You can't undervalue the importance of real depth. Optimism isn't going to do anything on the court if Rose misses any time. The team becomes just as challenged as this past year.
I was just listening to Hornacek on the MSG free agent show tonight, and he was saying how the guys they want to meet with have been receptive so far. Clearly there's a lot of chatter already going on.
Are going to offer a 5 year 115 million dollar deal to Harrison Barnes at 12:01. That's a lot of loot
wow, big bucks. Hard to see how we're gonna land a bench with the money teams are throwing around.
Maybe I am missing something but with there still being the same amount of players in the league and if more teams are throwing larger money at targeted key players it stands to reason because of the cap there has to be that many more players not receiving such large offers that will be available.
I feel like some source is running his mouth without knowledge. It makes way more sense than the Knicks negotiating with Noah before 7/1.
I agree but I also have no idea how that tampering shit works and when it is or isn't enforced. But yea how come know is even mentioning the tampering factor? Weird
Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine
Sources say Golden State's Durant pitch is scheduled to include Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Steve Kerr, Bob Myers, Joe Lacob
Both of them healthy will get you a lot more wins. Remember, outside Cleveland, the East fucking blows.
(responding to everyone)
Lopez was a 6 win player. How many wins is Noah netting you at center? Assuming he doesnt match his career best season, at best Noah gets you +3 wins. Derrick Rose? Again, his 2nd best season is a net +2 wins over Calderon last year. Lets fib and call it +4 just for fun. You've gained 7 wins. Knock off one though because Grant is gone and Holiday isnt anything.
So net six wins. Who are you adding on top of that? I think Bazemore and Batum are unlikely. Bazemore's best season is 4 wins. Lets call him 5 here to be generous. Now you're +11 wins (Batum might net you 6; Lee 4) being generous. But the rest of your roster under performs last year. Williams (3.6 wins) and AA (2.7) cost 13 million, and with Noah and Baze/Batum, there isnt money to pay for premium depth. So you end up with a bunch of 0-2 win players, who dont net you anything over last year's 0-2 win players. So you're back down to +5 wins. Lets put our thumb on the scale again and say +8. Im REALLY being generous.
So to get to 57 wins and ~the #2 seed, Melo and KP have to get ~17 wins better. Melo was a 6.4 win player last year; best ever year was 10.7. I dont thnk he's in for a career year, but fuck it, lets give him 5 more wins. Now KP needs to create a minimum of 12 wins over his 4 from last year. Is KP a 16 win player in year 2? Usually 16 wins is better than the 2nd best player in the NBA. If I take my thumb off the scale from above he needs to be a low-20s win player, which means better than LeBron has ever been.
There is simply no plausible was for us to get the depth to be a 57 win team unless we hit 3-5 home runs in very cheap signings. Minimum salary guys who weirdly give 3-4 win performances.
I don't think 57 wins is realistic at all next year, but I don't think 50 is out of the question. They don't even need Noah and Rose to be significantly better than Calderon and Lopez.
Let's say to be conservative that those 2 are worth 2 more wins than the Knicks got from Lopez and Calderon, the big area of improvement in the starting lineup will be from development of Porzingis, healthier Melo, and an upgrade at SG. Would you say it is unreasonable to see an increase of 3 wins from KP and 2.5 from Carmelo? Let's just say they get Courtney Lee at the 2-guard. He has pretty consistently been a 4 win guy, that's about 1.5 better than Afflalo last year.
So to add it up, net 2 wins from Noah and Rose, 5.5 from Carmelo and KP, and 1.5 from Lee over Afflalo gives about a 9 win increase from last year's starting 5. The Knicks starting 5 last year accounted for ~23 wins, so the new Knicks starting 5 is at 32 wins.
For comparisons sake, last year's Hawks starting 5 was at 34 wins, Miami's was 27 wins, and Boston's was 32.5 wins. All 3 of those teams won 48 games, so with the right additions to the NY bench 48 wins seems realistic, but 50 is possible too.
I remember following him a few years ago & everything he posted was wrong. Someone retweeted him today so I went & looked at his timeline. Only thing I posted from him was the Wade interest & the Noah deal wasn't close. Both seem like huge reaches to me.
Yea Tommy Dee is the worst. he also talks down to people acting like he knows stuff. Absolute worst. Would love a thread with zero mention of him from here on.
If that is the actual deal then that is an awesome job by Jackson. $16 per year is what I was hoping going in, and only a partial guarantee for the third year is huge. It gives flexibility to get out of the deal if Noah cant stay healthy, and it makes the contract a lot easier to trade if so desired down the line.
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Ken Berger @KBergCBS
Rival execs strongly expect Knicks-Joakim Noah to gain steam quickly tomorrow once two sides meet. Big question from one exec: "How much?"
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Really don't want Gordon at all. Would much rather have the better defensive player in Courtney Lee.
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Really don't want Gordon at all. Would much rather have the better defensive player in Courtney Lee.
Agreed, would rather a more efficient 3 and d guy at the 2...
Gordon is more of a scorer need the ball in their hands type of player and I don't know how that meshes with Melo and rose, although he and rose have been friends since high school
NBA Central @TheNBACentral
Knicks are trying to setup an informal meeting with KD, D-Rose & Joakim Noah are helping. Practically confirming Noah to NY. (The Vertical)
I can't think of anything that would be more legendary
then if he would come to NY and lead the Knicks to a championship.
IMO a great player would live for the opportunity to take that chance even if the odds of achieving a ring was a litle harder than say going to the Warriors would be.
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Vertical Sources: Joakim Noah and the New York Knicks are in discussions on the framework of a deal in range of four years, $70M-plus.
I curse the 90s Knicks not because they failed in 94 (they didn't get beaten by a better team, they failed). But because they made me fall in love with this franchise. I can't NOT care about them, and yet year after motherfucking year, they are the Cleveland Browns of basketball.
What's next? New uniform?
If everybody stays healthy. It could work
If everybody stays healthy. It could work
A 31 year old center with an injury history and an above avg to very good pg with an injury history is considered having pieces?
Why not go after whiteside for $22mm per year if your going to pay Noah $18mm or sign Mozgov for $10mm a year. 3 of the starting 5 players are eztremely injury prone and assuming this is a 4 year deal, then your going to be stuck with Noah and Melo together for another 3 years as the continue their declines and injury riddled seasons. The rose trade on its own is fine with me, but this combo is just really dumb.
This. The number is obviously coming from Noah's side, which is fine. For those whiners out there, that is still signifacntly lower than the max, which whiteside will get. We still will have enough room for someone like Courtney lee and a backup pg
Agreeing that Lee might be the best fit for us.
Wash Post - ( New Window )
They money is just higher now. Every contract will be crazy if looking at it with an old lens.
The Knicks have to make the playoffs, maybe win a round and then the 2017 class: Westbrook, Paul, Lebron, probably Durant again, Curry, Griffin, Lowry.
Also, although Noah can be injury prone, he generally plays 70 gams or so including playoffs. Two years ago, he played in 79 games including the playoffs. Also his injury was his shoulder (not knee or ankle) had surgery, and is supposedly healthy. And he's not 36 or 37, he is 31.
Finally, the money that will be tossed around will make $18m look like a fairly average deal for a player who was defensive player of the year, has won wherever he has played and an ideal teammate.
Noah at 18 million seems high for me, but it is market value. Teams will not be getting Centers cheap. Im curious as to the length of the deal. Would feel much better if it is a 3 year deal.
Core would be:
Noah
Porzingis
Anthony
Rose
Defenitely more skill and ability that Lopez/Porzingis/Anthony/Calderon, but can they stay healthy? Defensively Rose and Noah have proven they are one of the best at defending screen rolls. Clearly this was an objective for the Knicks. Get better in moving defensively and being able to run the floor quicker in transition. As a post sprinter, Noah is much better than Lopez. The only area Lopez is better than Noah is post ups. The rest is either same or Noah is better. I believe a key part of Noahs game that they want over Lopez is the passing skill. Noah has had seasons where he averaged over 5 asssists a game. Really good at setting a pick or coming up into the high post and facilitating. Last year our high man with assists was Melo at 4. If Noah signs, we have two guys here able to help Melo there.
In terms of next year, really could use 1-2 stand out 3 point shooters at the wings. Maybe where rest of the money goes.
Rest assure skill wise Noah is outstanding for a 4th best player, supportimg Center. Thompson of the Cavs makes similar money and is a lesser talent. What Im worried about if we sign Noah is how healthy he will be over his 3-4 year deal. I can not see this being a 1 year deal. Too many teams competing
Knicks!
When he's younger, Bill Russell is better than both.
Look, I cant say that the bottom out rebuild model is "better". Except to note how titles tend to be won by teams anchored by very high picks.
BUT... pointing to the last 15 years of Knicks history to back your point is ridiculous. The last 15 years of Knicks history is the evidence FOR doing a proper rebuild rather than trying to get better every year. Knicks didnt blow assets on Francis and McDyess etc. because they wanted to rebuild and be irrelevant; rather those mistakes happened because they were too desperate to be relevant.
Eric Gordon - ( New Window )
rebuild- trade melo and get younger!
get injured guys that will heal!
pay up for vet--- now we want to be playoff team.
If it gets durant then its the greatest move in NBA history.... if it doesnt then it seems we are just moving the goal posts here.
Knicks!
Agreed. But that unfortunately is the market rate. Id still pass at that price.
Well, as a Bulls fan we basically thought this every year and every year he was hurt. Its highly unlikely that trend reverses.
That said on a 1 year deal i like it for the Knicks, Rose too.
It worried me at the time, but I can't get too worked up over essentially trading Lopez, Grant and Calderon for Rose, Noah and Holiday. If they gave Noah four years, it's a problem, but let's wait and see. It's not like they traded a thousand draft picks for a washed up Pierce and KG.
rebuild- trade melo and get younger!
get injured guys that will heal!
pay up for vet--- now we want to be playoff team.
If it gets durant then its the greatest move in NBA history.... if it doesnt then it seems we are just moving the goal posts here.
When a fan base has more than 5 people, you tend to get differing opinions on the best path forward! :-)
Last thing I'd expect from a Giants fan...
They aren't winning regardless. You're just shuffling around highly expensive and very fragile deck chairs, and praying they don't play to form and get injured again.
Look the issue with Noah is the health. That said other then last year he usually played around 65 games plus the playoffs. If we can get 70 games from him id consider that a win. Look he is a better player then Lopez. Better defender, better rebounder, MUCH better passer (elite big man passer), prolly a slightly worse offensive player, but its not like Lopez is his brother on the offensive end.
Im not going to stress until i see the actual deal. LIke is it 2/36, id be ok with that. Or is it 4/72, id be pissed about that.
And for as horrific as he is offensively Bulls were only 1 point better when he was out
rebuild- trade melo and get younger!
get injured guys that will heal!
pay up for vet--- now we want to be playoff team.
If it gets durant then its the greatest move in NBA history.... if it doesnt then it seems we are just moving the goal posts here.
If the Knicks don't get Durant, what are they supposed to do? With KP, Rose and Melo they'll be too good to fully tank anyway. With Noah they have an outside shot at the ECF. Then in 17, with cap room, you never know.
If the Knicks don't get Durant, what are they supposed to do? With KP, Rose and Melo they'll be too good to fully tank anyway. With Noah they have an outside shot at the ECF. Then in 17, with cap room, you never know.
Cap room + strong playoff showing + core pieces locked (Melo/KP/Noah?) = actual chance to add a legit FA, not just the typical offseason BS rumors
rebuild- trade melo and get younger!
get injured guys that will heal!
pay up for vet--- now we want to be playoff team.
If it gets durant then its the greatest move in NBA history.... if it doesnt then it seems we are just moving the goal posts here.
It's easy to make posts like these when you just take different opinions from different people and mesh them together to make it look like one giant conglomerate of flip flopping.
I want the Knicks to build an actual contender and I don't care how long that takes. I'm not interested in being the Hawks or Bulls of recent years. Teams that make the playoffs but can't get out of the East and have no chance. Winning a playoff round does nothing for me. I'm not interested in that.
Being stuck in NBA purgatory is terrible. If the Knicks can't put together a team that can truly compete, I'd rather they suck and take their chances adding another talented young player in the draft. I've always found it completely pointless to have the goal of "let's just make the playoffs and see what happens" in the NBA. It's an exercise in futility and just leads to spinning your wheels for years.
If you're going to spend $18M per year for Noah on a 4 year deal you might as well just sign Dwight Howard.
You are correct that you can only draw free agents with winning, but there's quick fixes, which is what we're doing now, and sustainable winning.
Collecting a bunch of veterans with injury concerns isn't winning. it's quick fix. Noah isn't a long term fix. Rose probably isn't. It's fools gold, like the 2012 team that won a lot, but you knew all those players would be gone, and they had no future.
Even if the Knicks have a good season, it'll be because of players that aren't going to be here long term. What free agent is buying into that? You can't sell to a free agent that the NY Knicks know how to build a winner when all they do is chase their tails for big names that have been cast out from their former teams. Just having the desire and willingness to spend money isn't a measure of being able to build a winner. This is probably why they can't get anyone they want to come here.
Maybe we sign Gordon and Noah, and then Phil goes into the setting menu and turns off injuries. I used to do that when I played video games.
I agree if the money is close. And even if it isnt, I'd rather give D12 term than give Noah term.
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& the NFL. The Knicks aren't going to be able to lure the top FA's unless they start winning. 2017 might be the greatest year for star FA's in the NBA. In the NFL, as long as you have cap space,you can blow other teams out of the water(see Olivier Vernon) but in the NBA you can only offer Max which is the same for every team that is not the player's original team. So Phil is putting together what he believes is a winning team, one that hopefully can get to the playoffs.We weren't able to lure Greg Fucking Monroe here last year & KD obviously isn't coming this year.Maybe these moves don't pan out & all the doomsayers on here are right. But, if the Knicks have a good year this year, July 1st, 2017 might be something special.
You are correct that you can only draw free agents with winning, but there's quick fixes, which is what we're doing now, and sustainable winning.
Collecting a bunch of veterans with injury concerns isn't winning. it's quick fix. Noah isn't a long term fix. Rose probably isn't. It's fools gold, like the 2012 team that won a lot, but you knew all those players would be gone, and they had no future.
Even if the Knicks have a good season, it'll be because of players that aren't going to be here long term. What free agent is buying into that? You can't sell to a free agent that the NY Knicks know how to build a winner when all they do is chase their tails for big names that have been cast out from their former teams. Just having the desire and willingness to spend money isn't a measure of being able to build a winner. This is probably why they can't get anyone they want to come here.
See, I believe Noah can give the Knicks 3 good years, serve as a mentor at C for KP as he physically develops. I don't think Phil is abandoning long term, I just think he's dealing w/the hand he was dealt which was no #1 in 2 of his first 3 years.Again, the reason they can't get anyone to come here is they aren't winning. When Greg Monroe says no, you know you have to do something to change the landscape. Phil's not mortgaging the future for the present. He hasn't traded away any first round picks. Hernangomez is basically our #1 this year. All things being equal, I'm sure he'd bring in a younger player rather than an older one. But, all things aren't equal so he's trying to balance the present with the future. If he fails, we'll hear "same old Knicks" over & over again but if he succeeds, then the Zen master has returned & next year at this time we can real players for the top stars that are available.
I agree with this completely
So if knicks sign Lee as well...
Rose Lee Melo kp noah if healthy can't be the 2nd-4th best team in the east?
Before last year noah played at least 65 games and playoffs and winning years ago finished 4th in mvp voting...
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
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No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I'd certainly rather have D12 and Joe Johnson/Gordon on a 1 year deal
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In comment 13015189 arcarsenal said:
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No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I'd certainly rather have D12 and Joe Johnson/Gordon on a 1 year deal
not an option. Signing Dwight to the max means we only have about 9 mil per year left. Gordon isn't signing a 1 year 9 mm deal and I doubt Johnson is either.
Lee and noah are just better fits...
Lee shot 40% from 3 perfect guy to have when you have rose and melo
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No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I still think I'd rather have Dwight. I'd feel like with Dwight, KP, Melo and Rose we'd at least be able to "dream" of competing with the Cavs. Yes, it would take a lot of luck and things breaking right but those 4 together is probably the 2nd best team in the East.
Noah/KP/Melo/Lee/Rose is a really solid 5 and can win a couple playoff rounds if things go right but I still don't think it's good enough even if we get "best case".
I'm just looking for highest ceiling at this point.
Lee and noah are just better fits...
Lee shot 40% from 3 perfect guy to have when you have rose and melo
JJ is still better than what Afflalo gave us last year. We'd still be going into next year with upgrades at 3 positions.
If JJ was off the table I'd still prefer going into the year with Thomas as our SG if we signed D12
This team still has no shooting guard and no solid depth anywhere, it's a 3 man team at the moment and one is over the hill, one may never be the same and one who shows promise. These may all be band aids while KP develops but this team wont' compete for anything for at least 5 years and if I was a betting man, I'd say until Dolan dies or sells the team.
For what it's worth, you are posting on a GIANTS Forum. You can't understand why it gets disheartening to have to rely on oft-injured players at key positions?
Noah doesn't look like he's going to age all that well. So I'm hoping it's a 3 year deal. Someone said that he's grit player who doesn't have much explosiveness. He's not exactly Zach Randolph. He moves extremely well for a big. Very fluid athlete. I think he's lost a step or two in that regard.
I'm not going to quip about the deal too much if it's only 3 years but I think I'd still rather get Dwight Howard. Because at least we know he's going to be a top 6-7 center this season. Probably 3rd best in the east.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Did you see how he played this season? He WAS the 4th option in Houston. His scoring was predicated mostly on putbacks, rim running and lobs. Lot less PnR, which is his best skill. And he came away still averaging a double double and shooting 60%. Adapted really well to the roll. And he wanted to come here. What's he think, he's going to become the primary scorer over Melo rose and KP? Doubtful
Agreed. I wasnt for the Rose trade, but at this point it is obvious that we will not commit to the rebuild I want at this point.
That doesnt mean that we have to blow all our money in one shot. Noah for real money at 3-4 years is just a bad bet. You'd have to be a fool to think otherwise. And the NBA has a lot of fools, so someone will probably do it.
Try to sign guys in their 20s to reasonable contracts (adjusted of course for market conditions). If you dont get guys you love, then chase RFAs or do more value signings like last year with leftover cap room.
There are going to be a bunch of guys who dont get the # they want and are willing to take a 1 year deal or a 1+1 to hit the market again next year. 1+1 deals are not a big risk since the cap will go down during Summer 2018. No one will forego 2017 UFA to try again in 2018 unless they suffer a terrible injury.
I'm just not that interest in a 2012/13 Knicks redux and to me, it looks like that's where we're going.
And for as horrific as he is offensively Bulls were only 1 point better when he was out
Noah was injured last year even before it was official. Disregard those numbers.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
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a locker room cancer and a fugazi competitor.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
No way Lee gets 18M. I'd guess 8-12.
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a locker room cancer and a fugazi competitor.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
Right. $10 million is what someone posted Solomon Hill is looking at. SB's #91 UFA. Lee is their #31 UFA.
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In comment 13015323 Jon in NYC said:
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a locker room cancer and a fugazi competitor.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
No way Lee gets 18M. I'd guess 8-12.
If that's the case then it's a different story completely. That's definetly what he SHOULD cost. But Noah SHOULD have costed around $14-15M. We'll find out soon enough
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
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And Joey what are you talking about?
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Because once they're drafted it's not a draft pick anymore, so it becomes convenient to use the "not trading 1st rounders" argument to support your argument.
Last year was a fluke shoulder injury and if nothing else, it allowed him to heal his lower half. Personally, I hope they don't go 4 years on the deal as that's too much risk, but less than that I can live with. They will still have plenty of room under the cap the next few seasons with Noah on the books. They have 3 players on long term deals, it's not like they will be cap strapped like years past.
This current offseason is NOTHING like ones of the past, not even close. We still have flexibility, we didn't give away any picks and we brought in proven winners.
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And Joey what are you talking about?
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Because obviously Phil did not view grant as a future piece..
And I'll ask again what did you think grants ceiling was?
Rose is still only 4 years older than grant
He showed glimpses last year but all we b heard was he was nba ready right away and he showed nothing last year...
Because obviously Phil did not view grant as a future piece..
You have literally no basis for stating this. Because he was traded, he is not viewed as a future piece? All you know is that the Knicks preferred Rose over Grant/Lopez/Calderon. Maybe Phil had marching orders. Maybe Phil is contemplating his own mortality and views his window as 2 years tops. Maybe he just believes Rose will be fully recovered and that's way better than Grant.
Why do you keep asking. I've said it time and again -- Reggie Jackson. Similar profiles coming in, similar struggles first year. I'd be pretty surprised if Grant wasnt at least a pretty good 3rd guard, which is valuable too.
Rose is still only 4 years older than grant [/quote]
Subterfuge. One guy has little mileage on him, and the other guy's game has gone way down hill after years of injury. This is a frankly silly point. It's literally one piece of information, ignoring injury and cost control etc.
If they give Noah 18 million I won't give a shit as long as it's one year. Maybe two.
I think it's gonna be a two year deal. It has to be. Phil has been so careful with contracts since coming aboard. It's been the one thing along with KP he has nailed. If he gives out a long term deal to Noah it spits in the face of logic and long term planning. Until they announce the deal I won't panic.
I don't disagree with any of this, but somewhat ironically, Grant started to really come on at the end of the year.
17 and 7 on 48% shooting shows he is not completely finished
Think about the last 15 years and how many young rookie knicks came along that showed promise year one only to shit the bed soon after. The Knicks need to do KP right. Even if Noah misses 25 games next season his leadership won't be overlooked here. Sign him. Two years.
He showed glimpses last year but all we b heard was he was nba ready right away and he showed nothing last year...
Anybody who thinks any college player is a finish product is a fucking idiot.
There was a knock on Grant that his age probably limited his ceiling. I think that's a real issue but overblown. I think experience is more of a ceiling limiting factor than age. Indeed, I think there are counter arguments based on physical development that would lead you to conclude that in some ways Grant has more upside (ie room for improvement) than Mudiay physically. Mudiay is a better athlete than Grant and that wont change, but his body is more "finished" than Grant's (so dont misunderstand me to be saying Grant has a higher ceiling than Mudiay). Grant never committed to strength training.
This is Noah's people floating that number around.
2 year deal-Great deal
3 year deal-I'm a little concerned, but we can live with it
4 year deal-Ok, this is too much risk considering our current flexibility.
If he isn't you let him expire and move on
If they give Noah 18 million I won't give a shit as long as it's one year. Maybe two.
I think it's gonna be a two year deal. It has to be. Phil has been so careful with contracts since coming aboard. It's been the one thing along with KP he has nailed. If he gives out a long term deal to Noah it spits in the face of logic and long term planning. Until they announce the deal I won't panic.
That's mostly right. The real worry is that he gets 3-4 years. And while the smart move is to give 2, there are some hopeless teams out there who could really push the bidding.
Rose-Lee-Melo-JP-Noah, barring injury and with a decent bench, is a playoff team this year with more cap space available next year. I think that's closer to contender than purgatory.
If he isn't you let him expire and move on
My point to you wasnt an evaluation of Grant. It was a disagreement with your statement that they havent sacrificed their future "one bit". I dont know how you could say that unless you're declaring Grant a bust after one season.
Bigger picture I think the people who say Grant showed nothing are being foolish. It's that instant gratification element that hurts our ability to team build.
That would be terrible. That's essentially a 4 year commitment. Why is Noah walking away from 18 million going into his age 35 season?
You could make a case that Holiday is a better player than Grant.
What does Grant have to do with DeRozen? One we already had, cost controlled. The other is a free agent. We could have had both if DeRozen was willing to sign here. And btw, he's made it clear he's resigning in TOR.
I think that's too much risk for my taste. Do they do mutual options in the NBA? Both player and team option?
Trading a young piece and a good role playing starter for an oft injured (probably fading) star has a lot of same old Knicks ring to it.
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I'm fine with adding Rose.. if Noah is a short term deal that's fine too. To me, the bottom line will always be how we're going to build a team that can actually compete and come out of the East, though. I don't want to get stuck in purgatory again where we're not bad enough for lotto picks and not good enough to get past Cleveland.
Rose-Lee-Melo-JP-Noah, barring injury and with a decent bench, is a playoff team this year with more cap space available next year. I think that's closer to contender than purgatory.
It is, but how does it go from "close" to a contender to an actual contender? Can we actually keep Rose long-term and think he's going to stay healthy enough? I think KP is going to keep getting better and be in legit "star" territory in 2 years time but by then Melo is going to get closer to dead weight.
2 year deal-Great deal
3 year deal-I'm a little concerned, but we can live with it
4 year deal-Ok, this is too much risk considering our current flexibility.
I agree with this 100% I'll wait for the official numbers before I freak out
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the "same old Knicks" haven't made one move indicative of the same old knicks in a while. Rose has one year...etc etc.
Trading a young piece and a good role playing starter for an oft injured (probably fading) star has a lot of same old Knicks ring to it.
This is such a reach. People are trying so hard to fit this narrative, but it's just false. First off, Rose has 1 year on his deal. 1 freakin year. Same ole Knicks would trade for someone that has 7 years because the contra wanted to dump the salary. Secondly, we got a young player and a pick in return and Lopez will be replaced easily on Friday.
The Knicks are reportedly interested in Bismack Biyombo if they are unable to sign Joakim Noah.
The Knicks are reportedly the front-runners to land Noah, but Biyombo is thought to be the Knicks Plan B if they are unable to land the former Defensive Player of the year. Biyombo's breakout playoff performance will be tantalizing for fantasy owners, but we'll have to wait and see where he lands before assessing his fantasy value for 2016-17.
Well then "everyone" is a fucking idiot. Your prime =/= 23 year old rookie season. If anyone is disappointed that Grant didnt come in as a 23 year old rookie and play with the polish and poise of a 27 year old 8 year vet, well then I dont care about that person's stupid opinion.
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seems to really enjoy player options. My guess is they do 3 with a player option for no. 4.
That would be terrible. That's essentially a 4 year commitment. Why is Noah walking away from 18 million going into his age 35 season?
Not saying he would. That's just my prediction.
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In comment 13015401 arcarsenal said:
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I'm fine with adding Rose.. if Noah is a short term deal that's fine too. To me, the bottom line will always be how we're going to build a team that can actually compete and come out of the East, though. I don't want to get stuck in purgatory again where we're not bad enough for lotto picks and not good enough to get past Cleveland.
Rose-Lee-Melo-JP-Noah, barring injury and with a decent bench, is a playoff team this year with more cap space available next year. I think that's closer to contender than purgatory.
It is, but how does it go from "close" to a contender to an actual contender? Can we actually keep Rose long-term and think he's going to stay healthy enough? I think KP is going to keep getting better and be in legit "star" territory in 2 years time but by then Melo is going to get closer to dead weight.
One injury to Lebron? One good FA period in 2017? KP takes the next steps?
It's definitely closer than the other options, which are basically projecting out 3-5 years to when KP is in his prime.
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In comment 13015418 djm said:
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the "same old Knicks" haven't made one move indicative of the same old knicks in a while. Rose has one year...etc etc.
Trading a young piece and a good role playing starter for an oft injured (probably fading) star has a lot of same old Knicks ring to it.
This is such a reach. People are trying so hard to fit this narrative, but it's just false. First off, Rose has 1 year on his deal. 1 freakin year. Same ole Knicks would trade for someone that has 7 years because the contra wanted to dump the salary. Secondly, we got a young player and a pick in return and Lopez will be replaced easily on Friday.
I dont agree. A number of people here dont agree. And a lot of articles written about the trade dont agree. But I'll leave it at that since we've debated the Rose trade to death.
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
The biggest difference is that Rose isn't going to cripple us long term. He's an expiring contract, unlike all of those bad trades of the past.
Year 1-16 million
Year 2-20 million
year 3-Team option for 22 million(5 million buyout if not exercised)
Can they do something like that in bball?
Right. Short of Noah demanding a S&T so he can get a 5th year, 3+1 is literally the worst option for the team. It's worse than 3. And it's worse than 4.
He was terrible......for the Knicks.
Year 1-16 million
Year 2-20 million
year 3-Team option for 22 million(5 million buyout if not exercised)
Can they do something like that in bball?
No, you can't give any raise you want. I believe it's 7.5% a year either direction.
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then throwing him in the triangle, and expecting him to look like a finished product doesn't make sense. Fisher tried to implement a bit of pick and roll, and then Rambis took over and did nothing but try to save his own ass.
I don't disagree with any of this, but somewhat ironically, Grant started to really come on at the end of the year.
I'd be interested to know why you disagree. PG is probably the position affected most by playing in the triangle. He wouldn't be the first player ever to struggle with it at all.
The adjustment from playing on the ball to playing off it shouldn't be downplayed.
Knicks could sign lebron and they would rip the move, if knicks signed Durant they would say Durant is just after money and the knicks are not going anywhere...
It is the same narrative in every move, Phil got ripped for signing lopez and now he is getting ripped for trading him...
Stephen a basically said if Phil doesn't sign Durant he would have failed...
Lebatard just ripped the knicks for an hour saying they suck and will do nothing meanwhile his heat are going to be fading fast
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In comment 13015388 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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then throwing him in the triangle, and expecting him to look like a finished product doesn't make sense. Fisher tried to implement a bit of pick and roll, and then Rambis took over and did nothing but try to save his own ass.
I don't disagree with any of this, but somewhat ironically, Grant started to really come on at the end of the year.
I'd be interested to know why you disagree. PG is probably the position affected most by playing in the triangle. He wouldn't be the first player ever to struggle with it at all.
The adjustment from playing on the ball to playing off it shouldn't be downplayed.
Read it again. It was a double negative. I do not disagree with your statement.
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
The biggest difference is that Rose isn't going to cripple us long term. He's an expiring contract, unlike all of those bad trades of the past.
You cant say Grant wont be a major piece.
I dont get why everyone is so happy about Rose just being signed for one year. That's a DOWNSIDE. I'd be happier if he was signed for 2 years, maybe 3. There is runaway inflation in the NBA. His one year deal limits the upside of the trade.
The problem with trading for Francis, McDyess etc. wasnt the minutia of their contract lengths. It was the reality of trading young/cost controlled assets (picks, players) for guys who were once huge stars but were already felled by injury when we got them. If you dont see that parallels with the Rose trade at all then you're the one who is stretching to define recent Knicks history as unrelated to this trade.
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with an option for the 3rd year. Hopefully it will be a team option. Can they do something similar to baseball...team option with a buyout if they don't pick it up?
Year 1-16 million
Year 2-20 million
year 3-Team option for 22 million(5 million buyout if not exercised)
Can they do something like that in bball?
No, you can't give any raise you want. I believe it's 7.5% a year either direction.
I meant more specifically the buyout, not necessarily the amount of the raise which really doesn't matter.
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The Knicks past has scarred most of us that we assume the worst. You see that they trade for a former superstar that has red flags and you assume it fits the same description as the many deals that have killed us in the past....Rice, Marbury, Curry, Francis, Zack Randolph and on and on and on.
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
The biggest difference is that Rose isn't going to cripple us long term. He's an expiring contract, unlike all of those bad trades of the past.
You cant say Grant wont be a major piece.
I dont get why everyone is so happy about Rose just being signed for one year. That's a DOWNSIDE. I'd be happier if he was signed for 2 years, maybe 3. There is runaway inflation in the NBA. His one year deal limits the upside of the trade.
The problem with trading for Francis, McDyess etc. wasnt the minutia of their contract lengths. It was the reality of trading young/cost controlled assets (picks, players) for guys who were once huge stars but were already felled by injury when we got them. If you dont see that parallels with the Rose trade at all then you're the one who is stretching to define recent Knicks history as unrelated to this trade.
I never said Grant won't ever be a major piece. That's like me telling you that you can't say Holiday and the 2nd rounder won't ever be a major piece. All I am saying is that he's not a major piece now. He's still a young prospect with upside(somewhat limited) that I don't believe had a lot of trade value.
2. He gets a 1 year tryout and then we can hold his rights.
3. There are a few top level PG's available in FA next year.
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In comment 13015445 Keith said:
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The Knicks past has scarred most of us that we assume the worst. You see that they trade for a former superstar that has red flags and you assume it fits the same description as the many deals that have killed us in the past....Rice, Marbury, Curry, Francis, Zack Randolph and on and on and on.
The difference is that we didn't give up any picks(we actually got a pick) and we didn't give up any big pieces. If you want to argue that you think Grant will be a good player, fine, but he's still not a major piece. I'd bet he didn't have much trade value to begin with.
The biggest difference is that Rose isn't going to cripple us long term. He's an expiring contract, unlike all of those bad trades of the past.
You cant say Grant wont be a major piece.
I dont get why everyone is so happy about Rose just being signed for one year. That's a DOWNSIDE. I'd be happier if he was signed for 2 years, maybe 3. There is runaway inflation in the NBA. His one year deal limits the upside of the trade.
The problem with trading for Francis, McDyess etc. wasnt the minutia of their contract lengths. It was the reality of trading young/cost controlled assets (picks, players) for guys who were once huge stars but were already felled by injury when we got them. If you dont see that parallels with the Rose trade at all then you're the one who is stretching to define recent Knicks history as unrelated to this trade.
I never said Grant won't ever be a major piece. That's like me telling you that you can't say Holiday and the 2nd rounder won't ever be a major piece. All I am saying is that he's not a major piece now. He's still a young prospect with upside(somewhat limited) that I don't believe had a lot of trade value.
You literally said "he's still not a major piece".
You know that would happen to us.
The fact of the matter is, you build NBA rosters around 3 maybe 4 guys, and everyone else is pretty interchangeable. You can find guys like Grant and Lopez easier than someone like Rose, even if he isn't his old self.
In the context of your argument, that's a very silly point. By the same token, all draft pieces are not a major piece because theyre not even players, they're just a right to select a player in the future. How then were you differentiating Grant from a draft pick when you said:
I dont get the efforts to minimize the give for Rose. Unless Chicago is stupid, it stands to reason that either (1) Rose had no value because he's shit, or (2) Chicago got a valuable return for him. The attempt to portray the Rose trade as us getting a very good player and giving nothing of significant value (and argument I attribute to several posters, so this isnt Keith specific) is just fantasy.
But Deej, by the same logic shouldnt your love of Grant and Lopez prove that Rose has some value? Yes, I agree he has value. I think it was a dumb bet for the Knicks though.
The maximum potential dollar value is significantly more if he stays in OKC.
The maximum potential dollar value is significantly more if he stays in OKC.
Yes, although there is talk they're taking a run at Horford. If they can move Kanter for no significant salary in return (I think fairly easily in this market), it's really doable. I think it's just Kanter and either waiving Ilyasova or not signing Waiters or if they can get a Singler buyer.
If Horford goes there Durant may just reup long term and call it a day. That team is the best in the NBA. It's a fucking powerhouse. Adams-Horford-Durant-Oladipo-Westbrook with Payne, Ilyasova, and others off the bench? Just yikes.
Again, we got back a young player and a pick.
- Offense to this point is the same as last year, full triangle.
Again, we got back a young player and a pick.
You keep trying to act as if a second round pick- which can be easily bought and a d league player are any kind of asset but a guy who was the 19th pick in the draft is meaningless?
I keep bringing up the 2nd rounder AND Holiday to refute that this is the same ole Knicks.
I keep bringing up the 2nd rounder AND Holiday to refute that this is the same ole Knicks.
But Holiday and a 2nd round pick are the definition of meaningless. It doesn't refute anyhing.
Is that likely? No, but neither is landing a franchise player by tanking year after year as so many fans are in favor of. And Robin Lopez and Jarien Fn Grant don't give you a better chance at a ring then Rose. There may be more downside with Rose, but there's certainly more upside. And championships are all about best case scenarios.
I asked a couple of days ago. What was the plan and when did it change? Listening to Joe Benigno today. He summed it up. The plan is that Phil said "I am Phil Jackson and I can not leave NYC without ever making the playoffs"
It has been about Phil's rep and legacy.
We dont have Noah. If we get Noah, it will be at substantially more salary cost than the threesome we shipped out. So why wouldnt the far comp be, say, Rose/Holiday/Noah to Grant/Lopez/Calderon/Bazemore?
Also, with Rose you put all your eggs in the 2016-17 basket, whereas Grant was going to give cost controlled production for years to come (possibly, of course).
Also, it's far from clear that you're even right. I wouldnt bet on Noah being better than Lopez going forward with any confidence. Rose has way more talent than the Knicks two guards. But Rose's WS for the last three seasons is -.2, 1.2, and .4. Calderon was 4.0 last season. Grant was .8 (Reggie Jackson was a .1 in year on, 2.5 in year 2). Let us not crown Rose as the MVP reborn just yet please. It's a win now move that doesnt obviously make us better.
Calderon is expiring this year.
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the tandem of Rose/Holliday/noah make you a much better team than that of Grant/Lopez/Calderon.
We dont have Noah. If we get Noah, it will be at substantially more salary cost than the threesome we shipped out. So why wouldnt the far comp be, say, Rose/Holiday/Noah to Grant/Lopez/Calderon/Bazemore?
Also, with Rose you put all your eggs in the 2016-17 basket, whereas Grant was going to give cost controlled production for years to come (possibly, of course).
Also, it's far from clear that you're even right. I wouldnt bet on Noah being better than Lopez going forward with any confidence. Rose has way more talent than the Knicks two guards. But Rose's WS for the last three seasons is -.2, 1.2, and .4. Calderon was 4.0 last season. Grant was .8 (Reggie Jackson was a .1 in year on, 2.5 in year 2). Let us not crown Rose as the MVP reborn just yet please. It's a win now move that doesnt obviously make us better.
You are absolutely not going all in for 2016 with Rose. In fact, he's the exact opposite, in that it's an expiring deal. If he sucks, you move on next year and make a play for Westbrook, Lowry, etc.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
Haha, that's a long shot. But I love Biyombo. He brings big energy. Watching him smile everytime he made a play in the playoffs was quite something. He is pretty much a 6'9" version of Deandre Jordan. Except FTs isn't an issue.
Let the deal get announced first before some of you tell us to wake the hell up. Wake up from what? You're the one living in a made up nightmare by some twitter feed. You should wake up and let reality dictate things.
Right.
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
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I will take Bismark!
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
/thread
Who are DeRozen and Bismark?
Bazemore is 26
Biyimbo is 23
Turner is 27
Some combo of the above, would allow is to grow as a team over 2-4 years.
Anyone have an answer for this?
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I will take Bismark!
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
*dead*
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I will take Bismark!
Who are DeRozen and Bismark?
The predecessors to Lowell and Hardee
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Not signing Noah comes with a risk. The Knicks may not be able to sign another center if they lose out on Noah. Maybe they are stuck signing Mozgov for close to the same amount and maybe Phil feels that a leader like Noah is crucial to KP's development.
Not trading for Rose brings risk. The KNicks have no PG on the roster and Grant is unproven to say the least. If you go into the 2016 season with no playmaker at PG the team will be lucky to win 40 games even if things break right. They had to do something. There was limited FA talent at PG this summer.
IT's easy to sit here and bash every move when just about every move comes with risk. Phil is doing what he can to improve the team without obliterating the cap flexibility. Good luck with that. And thanks to the prior regimes for trading all of our fucking draft picks.
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how could it possibly be true? What about tampering rules?
Anyone have an answer for this?
Just a guess, but perhaps Noah's reps leaked that number to put some public pressure on the Knicks or other potential suitors? Though I'd imagine there is a great deal of tampering that goes on.
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
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Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
I am not being intentionally dense, I am however refuting the garbage that you are spewing.
So you are saying that the Knicks would have been better off not making this trade and instead maxing out Bazemore? So Calderon, Bazemore, Melo, KP, Lopez is a team you want to go to battle with???
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who play 50-60 games a year. Let's start there and work our way up.
I asked a couple of days ago. What was the plan and when did it change? Listening to Joe Benigno today. He summed it up. The plan is that Phil said "I am Phil Jackson and I can not leave NYC without ever making the playoffs"
It has been about Phil's rep and legacy.
That's a complete and utter steaming pile of bullshit. And Joe Beningo is a total idiot when it comes to his own teams and objectivity. The guy is literally incapable of rational thought when it comes to the Mets, Knicks, Rangers and Jets. Fact.
Phil hasn't done one thing to indicate he's in panic win now mode. Even the trade for Rose is more of a shot in the dark--low risk medium reward type move. Rose is a stop gap addition because we had NOTHING at guard.
Phil's legacy is fully established. The guy will be remembered as the most successful HC of all time. He's taking the long game here with the Knicks and every move he made, save for MAYBE the Rose deal, screams long game. And even the Rose deal is more in the middle with very little long term downside.
Bangs head against the wall...over and over.
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Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
Tomorrow afternoon rather.
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Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
So he is reporting that we plan on tampering to get a <12 hour advantage?
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In comment 13015689 Anakim said:
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Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
So he is reporting that we plan on tampering to get a <12 hour advantage?
Relax. I corrected myself.
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In comment 13015613 Keith said:
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Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
I am not being intentionally dense, I am however refuting the garbage that you are spewing.
So you are saying that the Knicks would have been better off not making this trade and instead maxing out Bazemore? So Calderon, Bazemore, Melo, KP, Lopez is a team you want to go to battle with???
No, I was doing a more apples for apples comparison. Rose + Noah was not a fair comp to Lopez + Grant + JC because the later group would give us 18 million more cap space this year. So I threw out a name that would cost about that much and fill another hole (Bazemore).
I dont want to go to battle with Rose and Noah, so there's that. Rose and Noah and Melo and KP aint winning a title. Given the likelihood of injury Im not even sure it gets you a home court round in the playoffs.
If I had my druthers we'd trade Melo. That's not on the table, and I get that. But I'd almost pretend like he isnt there. Sign a Bazemore if you like him. Sign a RFA and hope the other team doesnt match. Build on young, tradable assets.
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In comment 13015700 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13015689 Anakim said:
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Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
So he is reporting that we plan on tampering to get a <12 hour advantage?
Relax. I corrected myself.
Well, I obviously hadnt seen you second post when I posted this.
Well, I obviously hadnt seen you second post when I posted this.
I'll let you off the hook...this time.
Phil did a great job balancing Melo's career path without mortgaging the future at all. It's really that simple. I don't know what else we could have done considering our circumstances.
Many Knicks fans hate Phil Jackson and can't wait to shovel dirt on this guy if he fucks up here in NY. Even some posters on this thread, some of them will, some of them won't admit it, but many on here hate Jackson and look for anything to get on his case.
When I see someone say Phil is only in this for his legacy it only cements my belief. OF course he's in it for his legacy, he wants to win. He wants to fix the Knicks. That's a good thing isn't it?
They are all in it for their legacy. Ernie Accorsi traded the sun, moon and stars for Eli so he could catch his white whale and cement his legacy. Thankfully it worked.
Phil did a great job balancing Melo's career path without mortgaging the future at all. It's really that simple. I don't know what else we could have done considering our circumstances.
Has he? It's not even clear we'll get a meeting with either of the two most coveted UFAs.
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
fml, obviously Rose/Melo/KP/Noah is not a trio.
I need a coffee.
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
I don't think so.
But does that matter since it's the east? I think the upside of that being the 3rd or even 2nd season is very real.
I think the downside (injuries, Noah putting up identical season to last, etc.) is also very real.
Grizzlies confident about Conley returning and are to go after parsons.
Thunder plan to make a run for Horford and have a 2nd meeting secured after his 5 meetings with other teams.
Obviously Knicks over everything, but KD and Russ are probably my two favorite players in the league. Would love for them to get Horford if neither come to NY I wanna see them finish their primes in OKC.
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a better trio than Rose/Melo/KP/Noah?
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
I don't think so.
But does that matter since it's the east? I think the upside of that being the 3rd or even 2nd season is very real.
I think the downside (injuries, Noah putting up identical season to last, etc.) is also very real.
Are you guys high? CP3, Griffin and Jordan are undoubtably worlds better then any trio of the Knicks, and in terms of court impact probably better then all 4 combined.
You can make a case that the Clippers have the 3 best players period, and even if you put Melo above Jordan, the difference between Griffin and whoever and Chris Paul and Rose is worlds. Paul, Griffin and Jordan are all top 25-30 players in the NBA, with CP3 and Griffin somewhere in the top 10. Rose, Noah and KP are not top 50 players in the NBA. Are they even top 100 players? Maybe KP is, not so sure about the other two.
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In comment 13015821 Jon in NYC said:
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a better trio than Rose/Melo/KP/Noah?
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
I don't think so.
But does that matter since it's the east? I think the upside of that being the 3rd or even 2nd season is very real.
I think the downside (injuries, Noah putting up identical season to last, etc.) is also very real.
Are you guys high? CP3, Griffin and Jordan are undoubtably worlds better then any trio of the Knicks, and in terms of court impact probably better then all 4 combined.
You can make a case that the Clippers have the 3 best players period, and even if you put Melo above Jordan, the difference between Griffin and whoever and Chris Paul and Rose is worlds. Paul, Griffin and Jordan are all top 25-30 players in the NBA, with CP3 and Griffin somewhere in the top 10. Rose, Noah and KP are not top 50 players in the NBA. Are they even top 100 players? Maybe KP is, not so sure about the other two.
Excuse me, I read that wrong. I read it flipped. the clips trio is def better than that Knicks foursome (especially if you add reddick to the clips).
I'm not sure if that was supposed to be in context to where KD would fit. The clips would likely have to cut bait with Griffin to make that work.
Clippers cannot offer KD the max if they keep their big 3. Literally impossible.
Lets assume the most Clips friendly cap -- $93 million. KD's max then is $27.9 mill. Big 3 make 64.1 million. Assume they could get rid over everyone and take no salary back. They'd still have ghost holds of the rookie minimum * 7 roster spots (13-big 3 and KD). At 543,471 each, it's 3.8 million.
64.1 + 3.8 + 27.9 = 2.8 million over the cap. Durant would have to leave 2.8 million on the table, and sign up for a team of 4 guys plus everyone else on the minimum.
Not even a close call.
Yep and the Knicks trio hasn't lost 1 game! Clearly the Knicks trio is better.
So you're holding out hope that the Bulls traded us the MVP version of Rose?
Believe that there will be leaked reports throughout the day. Just stay up for like 40 minutes after midnight. There's gonna be a flurry of transactions
Nope. And he's probably my favorite knick of the last few years. Didn't "grow up". He had Lebron.
Winning =/= "grown up".
Rose is the big wild card in this equation. If Rose is a bit better than 2015 second half Rose (which is entirely possibly health permitting) and KP making the expected progression than I take the Knicks 4 some as better than the Clips trio.
(1/2) Local NBA FA buzz: Orono HS alum Jon Leuer has the Suns, Lakers, + NYK, among teams interested. Good under-the-radar FA, IMO.
(1/2) Local NBA FA buzz: Orono HS alum Jon Leuer has the Suns, Lakers, + NYK, among teams interested. Good under-the-radar FA, IMO.
That'd be cool. Leuer is what we should be looking at for backups. Good shooter, tough, Badger.
Winning =/= "grown up".
This.
The guy will show up to the White House without a shirt on.
This is a good point. JJ would be an amazing fit for us right now.
You will hear rumors of who is interested in who, who called who things like that, maybe a couple of meetings taking place...
I think and this is just my opinion that the knicks have their deal in place with noah for the most part and are meeting someone else at midnight, that is why Noah's meeting is tomorrow afternoon
Wait what combo guard are you referring to? Galloway?
If the keep Paul, Blake, Jordan, and JJ, Durant's maximum contract is down to $18 million.
Is it worth considering scenarios where Durant is taking 18 million? Because I could stack a lot of teams if Durant is leaving $10 million on the table.
Still not close. You'd still have at best one of the top 4 players. How is it even close? Who is 75% of MVP Rose better then of the Clippers 3?
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This combo guard bullshit is tired.
Wait what combo guard are you referring to? Galloway?
No one in the roster in particular. Just, who's the last legitimate complete 2-guard the Knicks actually have had?
Jamal Crawford?
Source tells @MarcJSpearsESPN that Nic Batum will meet with Hornets and Mavs in Dallas and will talk to Knicks, Lakers, Wizards on phone.
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In comment 13016084 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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This combo guard bullshit is tired.
Wait what combo guard are you referring to? Galloway?
No one in the roster in particular. Just, who's the last legitimate complete 2-guard the Knicks actually have had?
Jamal Crawford?
Hornacek said he wanted a legit 3 and d guy, someone who can knock down an open shot because between rose and melo the 2 guard is going to get a lot of open 3s
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In comment 13016084 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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This combo guard bullshit is tired.
Wait what combo guard are you referring to? Galloway?
No one in the roster in particular. Just, who's the last legitimate complete 2-guard the Knicks actually have had?
Jamal Crawford?
Lol isn't Crawford the definition of combo guard? But I guess In a good way where he could play both positions effectively in short stretches
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In comment 13016090 giantsfan44ab said:
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In comment 13016084 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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This combo guard bullshit is tired.
Wait what combo guard are you referring to? Galloway?
No one in the roster in particular. Just, who's the last legitimate complete 2-guard the Knicks actually have had?
Jamal Crawford?
Lol isn't Crawford the definition of combo guard? But I guess In a good way where he could play both positions effectively in short stretches
I always viewed Crawford as a 2-guard who could kind of run the offense if he had to. Let's be honest, Jamal was a shooter.
I would but I doubt they do considering they still need to pay a SG. He'd be fantastic insurance on Rose.
Source?
Good for the Knicks too. IMO this isnt the year for us to try to land a superstar UFA. It's next year, if somehow we really look good. E.g. KP breaks out, Rose looks like he's a star, and maybe a free agent signing really works out.
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To stay in OKC
Source?
Marc Spears ESPN:
"His decision is 90 percent made. It would take an amazing sales pitch to change it," said one of Durant's longtime friends.
Another Durant colleague said, "It's going to take some sweet-talking to get him to pass up all the money he can get by staying in OKC."
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In comment 13016225 giantsfan44ab said:
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To stay in OKC
Source?
Marc Spears ESPN:
"His decision is 90 percent made. It would take an amazing sales pitch to change it," said one of Durant's longtime friends.
Another Durant colleague said, "It's going to take some sweet-talking to get him to pass up all the money he can get by staying in OKC."
This is the relevant point. I believe the numbers are something like $54-56m he would be leaving on the table by not re-signing in OKC vs what he could make from any other team.
Really? Didn't think there was much of a chance he'd leave at all.
What were his options if he wanted to win? OKC is as good a situation in the league outside of GS or SA, which wouldn't make sense for a few other reasons. Why would he leave a team that has a good chance of winning it all next season?
The Cavs. Until someone improves in the East, it's the Cavs. Because OKC, GSW, and SAS need to get thru at least one of those teams (and if not them, probably a good LAC or MEM or other team as the 4 seed). Just to get to the Cavs, who have the best player. Cavs just have such an easier path. I probably under rate the Raptors, but the West is still way harder.
Next offseason will be bonkers. Curry will likely resign (but who knows -- he may want his meetings). OKC's top 2 come free. Blake and CP3 can opt out. Hayward, Lowry, Milsap too. Ibaka and Rose could have come back years.
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surprised he's likely staying to be honest, only because he doesn't strike me as someone who is swayed by money.
What were his options if he wanted to win? OKC is as good a situation in the league outside of GS or SA, which wouldn't make sense for a few other reasons. Why would he leave a team that has a good chance of winning it all next season?
I figured he'd end up with GSW.
Fwiw
If rose and noah are healthy and they had a SG like Courtney lee no reason why this team can't be a 2-4 seed in the east...
And then you either let rose go or sign him and you still have another 15 to 20 million to spend
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chance that KD signs, I have no idea what the Knicks are trying to do. Is the aim to hope that KP improves a ton and with this squad we become a 45+ win team? It's the lack of a coherent way forward that's most troubling about this offseason.
If rose and noah are healthy and they had a SG like Courtney lee no reason why this team can't be a 2-4 seed in the east...
And then you either let rose go or sign him and you still have another 15 to 20 million to spend
When you're committing big money and assets to gambles on health to try and top out in a weak conference (if that is indeed the "plan"), then count me out.
And after this free agency it's not like they will be capped out, they will still have money and draft picks to help add to core...
And yes the hope is kp eventually becomes the number 1 option
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surprised he's likely staying to be honest, only because he doesn't strike me as someone who is swayed by money.
What were his options if he wanted to win? OKC is as good a situation in the league outside of GS or SA, which wouldn't make sense for a few other reasons. Why would he leave a team that has a good chance of winning it all next season?
I thought he would stay anyways but the oladipo trade probably sealed it and the news about horford made him cream his pants.
If healthy that starting 5 can't finish between the 2 through 4 seeds?
Hawks are going to take a step back, Heat are going to take a step back...
Why can't they if those guys are healthy? Granted it's a big if but it's worth the risk
And after this free agency it's not like they will be capped out, they will still have money and draft picks to help add to core...
And yes the hope is kp eventually becomes the number 1 option
Where is this number even coming from? The highest it has been predicted is 108-109M.
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And stop looking at the dollar amount everyone soon. Will be that big soon, next year the cap will be 115 million...
And after this free agency it's not like they will be capped out, they will still have money and draft picks to help add to core...
And yes the hope is kp eventually becomes the number 1 option
Where is this number even coming from? The highest it has been predicted is 108-109M.
I saw 112-115 just like this year the cap was a few million more than originally predicted
People are still using their NBA 2K12 rosters. Update them already.
Do you always feel the need to show up on threads to shit on the Knicks? We get it. You hate the Knicks.
So that's it? Noah and Rose are the only moves? The Knicks won't do anything else the rest of the offseason?
Yikes. They're gonna be a bit short handed.
Both of them healthy will get you a lot more wins. Remember, outside Cleveland, the East fucking blows.
It's not just rose and noah it's also Courtney lee...
Also a jump for kp...
Also a better coach in hornacek...
Which team scares you?! How many teams you can clearly say without a doubt are clearly better than the Knicks... Hawks, Hornets, Heat, etc?
I saw nothing but limited teams in the EC playoffs. I think Phil sees an opportunity to strike in a very weak conference and is going for it.
Even if they sign a guy like Noah, hopefully not a long term risk, The Knicks are basically taking baby steps to get better. There's nothing wrong with that. They took a flier on rose without really risking anything long term. Hopefully rose can upgrade the guard spot it's sorely needed.
As was noted earlier, the cap will jump again next year, we will be able to make an educated decision on Rose, and should have a much easier time recruiting a marquee free agent next July coming off of a 45+ win season.
Nobody thinks these moves make the Knicks a title contender this year, but it's a more likely route to get there in the future than to just keep losing and hope the ping pong balls fall the right way.
Joakim Noah is reportedly "99 percent sure" that he'll join the Knicks as an unrestricted free agent.
Noah will meet with the Knicks on Friday, but it seems all but certain the New York native will be returning home this summer. Noah is reportedly set to earn an annual salary in the $18 million range, although Phil Jackson is trying to convince him to sign something closer to $15-$16 million in order to keep their options open of bringing in another impactful player during free agency. Noah will be the starting center in New York, but his injury history will make him a risky mid-round gamble on draft day.
Also tells me that the years are agreed upon.
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aint getting you +25 games. Come the fuck on.
Both of them healthy will get you a lot more wins. Remember, outside Cleveland, the East fucking blows.
(responding to everyone)
Lopez was a 6 win player. How many wins is Noah netting you at center? Assuming he doesnt match his career best season, at best Noah gets you +3 wins. Derrick Rose? Again, his 2nd best season is a net +2 wins over Calderon last year. Lets fib and call it +4 just for fun. You've gained 7 wins. Knock off one though because Grant is gone and Holiday isnt anything.
So net six wins. Who are you adding on top of that? I think Bazemore and Batum are unlikely. Bazemore's best season is 4 wins. Lets call him 5 here to be generous. Now you're +11 wins (Batum might net you 6; Lee 4) being generous. But the rest of your roster under performs last year. Williams (3.6 wins) and AA (2.7) cost 13 million, and with Noah and Baze/Batum, there isnt money to pay for premium depth. So you end up with a bunch of 0-2 win players, who dont net you anything over last year's 0-2 win players. So you're back down to +5 wins. Lets put our thumb on the scale again and say +8. Im REALLY being generous.
So to get to 57 wins and ~the #2 seed, Melo and KP have to get ~17 wins better. Melo was a 6.4 win player last year; best ever year was 10.7. I dont thnk he's in for a career year, but fuck it, lets give him 5 more wins. Now KP needs to create a minimum of 12 wins over his 4 from last year. Is KP a 16 win player in year 2? Usually 16 wins is better than the 2nd best player in the NBA. If I take my thumb off the scale from above he needs to be a low-20s win player, which means better than LeBron has ever been.
There is simply no plausible was for us to get the depth to be a 57 win team unless we hit 3-5 home runs in very cheap signings. Minimum salary guys who weirdly give 3-4 win performances.
I feel like some source is running his mouth without knowledge. It makes way more sense than the Knicks negotiating with Noah before 7/1.
A Rose-Lee-Melo-KP-Noah team "fits" together well, and there is plenty of reason to think the whole will be greater than the sum is its parts. The 3rd seed in the east won 48 games last year. I think this is a 50-55 win team, which should be in the 2-4 range in the East.
Is that a sure fire title contender? No. But barring signing Durant, what is the path to that that we can't still achieve. As I mentioned earlier, building NBA teams is 90% about what core 3-4 guys you can get in place, and everyone else is interchangeable. Lopez and Grant are never going to be apart of a core 3-4 guys on an NBA title team.
They may not win 25 more games, but 48 wins got you the 3rd seed last year. I don't think an extra 16-17 wins is impossible. Especially if we had a decent SG. Obviously that's providing our guys stay healthy. Noah is a better player then RoLo. Rose is much better then Calderon. Melo should benefit from having those 2. KP is going to get better.
A Rose-Lee-Melo-KP-Noah team "fits" together well, and there is plenty of reason to think the whole will be greater than the sum is its parts. The 3rd seed in the east won 48 games last year. I think this is a 50-55 win team, which should be in the 2-4 range in the East.
Is that a sure fire title contender? No. But barring signing Durant, what is the path to that that we can't still achieve. As I mentioned earlier, building NBA teams is 90% about what core 3-4 guys you can get in place, and everyone else is interchangeable. Lopez and Grant are never going to be apart of a core 3-4 guys on an NBA title team.
Eh, it kind of is how it works. Sure there is some chemistry. But win shares explain a lot of teams records. They're not predictive, but I programmed in a lot of wiggle room. Fact is it will be very hard for us to fill out a decent roster that could let us get to high 50s wins. If we sign Noah and Lee, MAYBE would could make one Williams level signing. If it is Noah and Baze/Batum, very unlikely.
IMO 57 wins is magic thinking, barring Rose being a near MVP level player. Next best plan to get to 57 is probably one signing like a Noah/Baze type and then 3-5 guys for like 4-5 million each. Depth is really important.
They may not win 25 more games, but 48 wins got you the 3rd seed last year. I don't think an extra 16-17 wins is impossible. Especially if we had a decent SG. Obviously that's providing our guys stay healthy. Noah is a better player then RoLo. Rose is much better then Calderon. Melo should benefit from having those 2. KP is going to get better.
I wouldnt bet the over, but I dont think 48 wins is a crazy outcome.
I feel like some source is running his mouth without knowledge. It makes way more sense than the Knicks negotiating with Noah before 7/1.
It's a good point. Are their any loopholes which allow agents to talk early, but players can't meet til midnight?
Noah/Willy
KP/O'Quinn
Melo/Thomas
Lee/Galloway/Holiday
Rose/Vasquez (or someone of the like)
That's far from a terrible bench. No one there will win 6th man of the year, but there are decent backups at each position and a lot of two way players.
Hornacek said the triangle offense is sweet for a center, and Robin Lopez proved that last season when he emerged as a major low-post option. That is expected to be conveyed to Noah at the meeting as the Knicks look to add a big, scrappy body next to 7-foot-3 forward Kristaps Porzingis. The free-agent recruiting period begins at 12:01 a.m. Friday, but the Knicks wont be burning the midnight oil with Noah.
Hornacek was asked about his sales pitch to the elite centers.
The biggest thing for the guys is look at some of the main components we have, Hornacek said. If they know they can go to a team that can win, that helps. We obviously want to solidify the defense from that spot. Robin was a guy who was very good at protecting the basket. We want that. We want a guy who can do it all. You cant be one-dimensional in this league.
Hes got to have a little bit of ability whether he can finish underneath, move around, make some midrange shots. We want that ability, Hornacek added. Not just be a guy whos going to set picks all the time, but going to be involved a little bit more than a lot of teams in the league. A lot of those [triangle] aspects, youre going to have touches and make plays out of it. Maybe in early offense, in the open court, now you can set some picks and roll.
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wow, big bucks. Hard to see how we're gonna land a bench with the money teams are throwing around.
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Are going to offer a 5 year 115 million dollar deal to Harrison Barnes at 12:01. That's a lot of loot
wow, big bucks. Hard to see how we're gonna land a bench with the money teams are throwing around.
Maybe I am missing something but with there still being the same amount of players in the league and if more teams are throwing larger money at targeted key players it stands to reason because of the cap there has to be that many more players not receiving such large offers that will be available.
I feel like some source is running his mouth without knowledge. It makes way more sense than the Knicks negotiating with Noah before 7/1.
I agree but I also have no idea how that tampering shit works and when it is or isn't enforced. But yea how come know is even mentioning the tampering factor? Weird
Also saying the Knicks will go hard after Wade if we miss out on Durant. Haven't seen that anywhere else besides him.
Sources say Golden State's Durant pitch is scheduled to include Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Steve Kerr, Bob Myers, Joe Lacob
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In comment 13016336 Deej said:
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aint getting you +25 games. Come the fuck on.
Both of them healthy will get you a lot more wins. Remember, outside Cleveland, the East fucking blows.
(responding to everyone)
Lopez was a 6 win player. How many wins is Noah netting you at center? Assuming he doesnt match his career best season, at best Noah gets you +3 wins. Derrick Rose? Again, his 2nd best season is a net +2 wins over Calderon last year. Lets fib and call it +4 just for fun. You've gained 7 wins. Knock off one though because Grant is gone and Holiday isnt anything.
So net six wins. Who are you adding on top of that? I think Bazemore and Batum are unlikely. Bazemore's best season is 4 wins. Lets call him 5 here to be generous. Now you're +11 wins (Batum might net you 6; Lee 4) being generous. But the rest of your roster under performs last year. Williams (3.6 wins) and AA (2.7) cost 13 million, and with Noah and Baze/Batum, there isnt money to pay for premium depth. So you end up with a bunch of 0-2 win players, who dont net you anything over last year's 0-2 win players. So you're back down to +5 wins. Lets put our thumb on the scale again and say +8. Im REALLY being generous.
So to get to 57 wins and ~the #2 seed, Melo and KP have to get ~17 wins better. Melo was a 6.4 win player last year; best ever year was 10.7. I dont thnk he's in for a career year, but fuck it, lets give him 5 more wins. Now KP needs to create a minimum of 12 wins over his 4 from last year. Is KP a 16 win player in year 2? Usually 16 wins is better than the 2nd best player in the NBA. If I take my thumb off the scale from above he needs to be a low-20s win player, which means better than LeBron has ever been.
There is simply no plausible was for us to get the depth to be a 57 win team unless we hit 3-5 home runs in very cheap signings. Minimum salary guys who weirdly give 3-4 win performances.
I don't think 57 wins is realistic at all next year, but I don't think 50 is out of the question. They don't even need Noah and Rose to be significantly better than Calderon and Lopez.
Let's say to be conservative that those 2 are worth 2 more wins than the Knicks got from Lopez and Calderon, the big area of improvement in the starting lineup will be from development of Porzingis, healthier Melo, and an upgrade at SG. Would you say it is unreasonable to see an increase of 3 wins from KP and 2.5 from Carmelo? Let's just say they get Courtney Lee at the 2-guard. He has pretty consistently been a 4 win guy, that's about 1.5 better than Afflalo last year.
So to add it up, net 2 wins from Noah and Rose, 5.5 from Carmelo and KP, and 1.5 from Lee over Afflalo gives about a 9 win increase from last year's starting 5. The Knicks starting 5 last year accounted for ~23 wins, so the new Knicks starting 5 is at 32 wins.
For comparisons sake, last year's Hawks starting 5 was at 34 wins, Miami's was 27 wins, and Boston's was 32.5 wins. All 3 of those teams won 48 games, so with the right additions to the NY bench 48 wins seems realistic, but 50 is possible too.
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If that is the actual deal then that is an awesome job by Jackson. $16 per year is what I was hoping going in, and only a partial guarantee for the third year is huge. It gives flexibility to get out of the deal if Noah cant stay healthy, and it makes the contract a lot easier to trade if so desired down the line.
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Rival execs strongly expect Knicks-Joakim Noah to gain steam quickly tomorrow once two sides meet. Big question from one exec: "How much?"
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..Noah Knicks Link - ( New Window )
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Really don't want Gordon at all. Would much rather have the better defensive player in Courtney Lee.
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In comment 13016632 djm said:
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..Noah Knicks Link - ( New Window )
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks continue hunt for affordable starting SG. They like Courtney Lee but their interest in sharpshooter Eric Gordon grows.
Really don't want Gordon at all. Would much rather have the better defensive player in Courtney Lee.
Agreed, would rather a more efficient 3 and d guy at the 2...
Gordon is more of a scorer need the ball in their hands type of player and I don't know how that meshes with Melo and rose, although he and rose have been friends since high school
There has been some traction lately of the Knicks being able to get an audience with Durant.
Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Rose and even Joakim Noah have reached out to Durant in attempts to recruit him to the Knicks.
Durant is uncertain if he would like to live in New York and he's also dubious about their chances of contending for a title immediately.
ADRIAN WOJNAROWSKI/THE VERTICAL
Source: Evan Turner to be courted by Lakers, Mavericks, Grizzlies, Bulls, Knicks and Pelicans. He's in LA now.
Knicks are trying to setup an informal meeting with KD, D-Rose & Joakim Noah are helping. Practically confirming Noah to NY. (The Vertical)
IMO a great player would live for the opportunity to take that chance even if the odds of achieving a ring was a litle harder than say going to the Warriors would be.
Unless noah is willing to take less to get Durant here?
Also rose is recruiting Gordon, they are close friends...
Kind of what Matthew's did last year with dallas
Vertical Sources: Joakim Noah and the New York Knicks are in discussions on the framework of a deal in range of four years, $70M-plus.