& the NFL. The Knicks aren't going to be able to lure the top FA's unless they start winning. 2017 might be the greatest year for star FA's in the NBA. In the NFL, as long as you have cap space,you can blow other teams out of the water(see Olivier Vernon) but in the NBA you can only offer Max which is the same for every team that is not the player's original team. So Phil is putting together what he believes is a winning team, one that hopefully can get to the playoffs.We weren't able to lure Greg Fucking Monroe here last year & KD obviously isn't coming this year.Maybe these moves don't pan out & all the doomsayers on here are right. But, if the Knicks have a good year this year, July 1st, 2017 might be something special.
You are correct that you can only draw free agents with winning, but there's quick fixes, which is what we're doing now, and sustainable winning.
Collecting a bunch of veterans with injury concerns isn't winning. it's quick fix. Noah isn't a long term fix. Rose probably isn't. It's fools gold, like the 2012 team that won a lot, but you knew all those players would be gone, and they had no future.
Even if the Knicks have a good season, it'll be because of players that aren't going to be here long term. What free agent is buying into that? You can't sell to a free agent that the NY Knicks know how to build a winner when all they do is chase their tails for big names that have been cast out from their former teams. Just having the desire and willingness to spend money isn't a measure of being able to build a winner. This is probably why they can't get anyone they want to come here.
See, I believe Noah can give the Knicks 3 good years, serve as a mentor at C for KP as he physically develops. I don't think Phil is abandoning long term, I just think he's dealing w/the hand he was dealt which was no #1 in 2 of his first 3 years.Again, the reason they can't get anyone to come here is they aren't winning. When Greg Monroe says no, you know you have to do something to change the landscape. Phil's not mortgaging the future for the present. He hasn't traded away any first round picks. Hernangomez is basically our #1 this year. All things being equal, I'm sure he'd bring in a younger player rather than an older one. But, all things aren't equal so he's trying to balance the present with the future. If he fails, we'll hear "same old Knicks" over & over again but if he succeeds, then the Zen master has returned & next year at this time we can real players for the top stars that are available.
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
I agree with this completely
RE: The idea that by signing guys who were stars years ago
We're building a winner is laughable. Adding a bunch of guys who weren't that good for teams that couldn't make the playoffs makes the Knicks an eastern conf contender?
So if knicks sign Lee as well...
Rose Lee Melo kp noah if healthy can't be the 2nd-4th best team in the east?
Regardless of sport, I hate the idea of signing oft injured guys
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I'd certainly rather have D12 and Joe Johnson/Gordon on a 1 year deal
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I'd certainly rather have D12 and Joe Johnson/Gordon on a 1 year deal
not an option. Signing Dwight to the max means we only have about 9 mil per year left. Gordon isn't signing a 1 year 9 mm deal and I doubt Johnson is either.
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I still think I'd rather have Dwight. I'd feel like with Dwight, KP, Melo and Rose we'd at least be able to "dream" of competing with the Cavs. Yes, it would take a lot of luck and things breaking right but those 4 together is probably the 2nd best team in the East.
Noah/KP/Melo/Lee/Rose is a really solid 5 and can win a couple playoff rounds if things go right but I still don't think it's good enough even if we get "best case".
I'm just looking for highest ceiling at this point.
What's your plan then? Everyone agrees winning brings FA's So...... Since no one wants to sign and free agents (cause they all suck and we won't win anyway) what's the plan? Not put a uniform on? Move the team? Take your ball and go home? All I hear is bitching about Phil and the New York Knicks and no one has a plan. Trade Melo? Ask him first not happening so Go what is it?
I said yesterday that if Noah got into the $18-$20 million range it might be wise to just go after Dwight. Still feel conflicted on it, but the length of the Noah contract will tell the story. If it's four years, I think it's a mistake to give it to him. When you're rebuilding you want contracts that can always be moved later on, like Lopez and, presumably, Courtney Lee. Noah at 4 years/$70+ million is an albatross.
The plan should be to not put big money into players
Going to wake up? This has been the MO since Van Gundy left, trade for names to fill up the Mecca, wins be damned. Dolan has continued to pull strings and I don't for one second think he's not involved despite Phil claiming he is in charge. The risk on Rose is good, he's an expiring contract, still only 27 and capable of rebounding. Throwing cash at Noah long term? Not smart, as was said above he's usually hurt and that won't magically change at 30+. If it's for a year, fine but beyond that it's pointless.
This team still has no shooting guard and no solid depth anywhere, it's a 3 man team at the moment and one is over the hill, one may never be the same and one who shows promise. These may all be band aids while KP develops but this team wont' compete for anything for at least 5 years and if I was a betting man, I'd say until Dolan dies or sells the team.
What's your plan then? Everyone agrees winning brings FA's So...... Since no one wants to sign and free agents (cause they all suck and we won't win anyway) what's the plan? Not put a uniform on? Move the team? Take your ball and go home? All I hear is bitching about Phil and the New York Knicks and no one has a plan. Trade Melo? Ask him first not happening so Go what is it?
For what it's worth, you are posting on a GIANTS Forum. You can't understand why it gets disheartening to have to rely on oft-injured players at key positions?
here are on Noah but there's justifiable concern. I'm personally more optimistic on Noah's outlook. I wanted him in the middle of the season as a potential backup for RoLo but things have really changed since then.
Noah doesn't look like he's going to age all that well. So I'm hoping it's a 3 year deal. Someone said that he's grit player who doesn't have much explosiveness. He's not exactly Zach Randolph. He moves extremely well for a big. Very fluid athlete. I think he's lost a step or two in that regard.
I'm not going to quip about the deal too much if it's only 3 years but I think I'd still rather get Dwight Howard. Because at least we know he's going to be a top 6-7 center this season. Probably 3rd best in the east.
He hated being the 2nd option how is he going to handle being the 3rd or 4th? And at least with noah you got a tough defender next to kp
Did you see how he played this season? He WAS the 4th option in Houston. His scoring was predicated mostly on putbacks, rim running and lobs. Lot less PnR, which is his best skill. And he came away still averaging a double double and shooting 60%. Adapted really well to the roll. And he wanted to come here. What's he think, he's going to become the primary scorer over Melo rose and KP? Doubtful
RE: The plan should be to not put big money into players
who play 50-60 games a year. Let's start there and work our way up.
Agreed. I wasnt for the Rose trade, but at this point it is obvious that we will not commit to the rebuild I want at this point.
That doesnt mean that we have to blow all our money in one shot. Noah for real money at 3-4 years is just a bad bet. You'd have to be a fool to think otherwise. And the NBA has a lot of fools, so someone will probably do it.
Try to sign guys in their 20s to reasonable contracts (adjusted of course for market conditions). If you dont get guys you love, then chase RFAs or do more value signings like last year with leftover cap room.
There are going to be a bunch of guys who dont get the # they want and are willing to take a 1 year deal or a 1+1 to hit the market again next year. 1+1 deals are not a big risk since the cap will go down during Summer 2018. No one will forego 2017 UFA to try again in 2018 unless they suffer a terrible injury.
Howard has huge red flags but that dude can dominate when he wants to. I'd at least want to be able to "dream" that he'd focus here and give us the Dwight we've seen glimpses of in the past.
I'm just not that interest in a 2012/13 Knicks redux and to me, it looks like that's where we're going.
RE: Bulls last year in a year where noah supposedly sucked
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
No way Lee gets 18M. I'd guess 8-12.
If that's the case then it's a different story completely. That's definetly what he SHOULD cost. But Noah SHOULD have costed around $14-15M. We'll find out soon enough
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Then I'd much rather go for Baze than Lee. I just don't want to be locked in long term to two guys north of $30M who have clearly declined the last few seasons. Honestly much rather roll with Thomas at that point and go after reddick next offseason.
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Because once they're drafted it's not a draft pick anymore, so it becomes convenient to use the "not trading 1st rounders" argument to support your argument.
hasn't been paying attention for a few years now. The guy is a flake and has no inner drive. Noah is the opposite. Don't get me wrong, the guy is a risk with his history and style of play, but he's everything this team needs. He's a fiery competitor, a great teammate and fits a role that we need on the court.
Last year was a fluke shoulder injury and if nothing else, it allowed him to heal his lower half. Personally, I hope they don't go 4 years on the deal as that's too much risk, but less than that I can live with. They will still have plenty of room under the cap the next few seasons with Noah on the books. They have 3 players on long term deals, it's not like they will be cap strapped like years past.
This current offseason is NOTHING like ones of the past, not even close. We still have flexibility, we didn't give away any picks and we brought in proven winners.
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Because obviously Phil did not view grant as a future piece..
And I'll ask again what did you think grants ceiling was?
Nobody in their right mind would draw conclusions on a player and close the book on a draft pick after one season of play where he wasn't even developed. It's horrible talent evaluation.
Because obviously Phil did not view grant as a future piece..
You have literally no basis for stating this. Because he was traded, he is not viewed as a future piece? All you know is that the Knicks preferred Rose over Grant/Lopez/Calderon. Maybe Phil had marching orders. Maybe Phil is contemplating his own mortality and views his window as 2 years tops. Maybe he just believes Rose will be fully recovered and that's way better than Grant.
Quote:
And I'll ask again what did you think grants ceiling was?
Why do you keep asking. I've said it time and again -- Reggie Jackson. Similar profiles coming in, similar struggles first year. I'd be pretty surprised if Grant wasnt at least a pretty good 3rd guard, which is valuable too.
Rose is still only 4 years older than grant [/quote]
Subterfuge. One guy has little mileage on him, and the other guy's game has gone way down hill after years of injury. This is a frankly silly point. It's literally one piece of information, ignoring injury and cost control etc.
would complain about the Rose deal. I really don't see any negative. Grant? We got a 2nd and another young prospect back. Lopez? Easily replaced and will be on day 1 of FA. Rose is injury prone? Ok, well he has 1 year to tryout and then we can worry about that. If none of it works out and we suck...ok, we still have our 1st next year.
then throwing him in the triangle, and expecting him to look like a finished product doesn't make sense. Fisher tried to implement a bit of pick and roll, and then Rambis took over and did nothing but try to save his own ass.
and manby of us have said the same thing all week long. Who the hell cares how much they pay Noah. It's. All. About. The. Years.
If they give Noah 18 million I won't give a shit as long as it's one year. Maybe two.
I think it's gonna be a two year deal. It has to be. Phil has been so careful with contracts since coming aboard. It's been the one thing along with KP he has nailed. If he gives out a long term deal to Noah it spits in the face of logic and long term planning. Until they announce the deal I won't panic.
RE: Drafting a player who is a pure pick and roll PG
then throwing him in the triangle, and expecting him to look like a finished product doesn't make sense. Fisher tried to implement a bit of pick and roll, and then Rambis took over and did nothing but try to save his own ass.
I don't disagree with any of this, but somewhat ironically, Grant started to really come on at the end of the year.
And this notion that rose is finished is a little over the top
the more I want Noah here. The most important thing the Knicks should be focusing on is nurturing KP and surrounding this kid with the right leadership. Noah is that guy and so much more.
Think about the last 15 years and how many young rookie knicks came along that showed promise year one only to shit the bed soon after. The Knicks need to do KP right. Even if Noah misses 25 games next season his leadership won't be overlooked here. Sign him. Two years.
Was he was a f ok nished product and did not have a high ceiling, it is why he was not in the same discussion as mudiay...
He showed glimpses last year but all we b heard was he was nba ready right away and he showed nothing last year...
Anybody who thinks any college player is a finish product is a fucking idiot.
There was a knock on Grant that his age probably limited his ceiling. I think that's a real issue but overblown. I think experience is more of a ceiling limiting factor than age. Indeed, I think there are counter arguments based on physical development that would lead you to conclude that in some ways Grant has more upside (ie room for improvement) than Mudiay physically. Mudiay is a better athlete than Grant and that wont change, but his body is more "finished" than Grant's (so dont misunderstand me to be saying Grant has a higher ceiling than Mudiay). Grant never committed to strength training.
I'm fine with adding Rose.. if Noah is a short term deal that's fine too. To me, the bottom line will always be how we're going to build a team that can actually compete and come out of the East, though. I don't want to get stuck in purgatory again where we're not bad enough for lotto picks and not good enough to get past Cleveland.
1 year deal-BRILLIANT
2 year deal-Great deal
3 year deal-I'm a little concerned, but we can live with it
4 year deal-Ok, this is too much risk considering our current flexibility.
and manby of us have said the same thing all week long. Who the hell cares how much they pay Noah. It's. All. About. The. Years.
If they give Noah 18 million I won't give a shit as long as it's one year. Maybe two.
I think it's gonna be a two year deal. It has to be. Phil has been so careful with contracts since coming aboard. It's been the one thing along with KP he has nailed. If he gives out a long term deal to Noah it spits in the face of logic and long term planning. Until they announce the deal I won't panic.
That's mostly right. The real worry is that he gets 3-4 years. And while the smart move is to give 2, there are some hopeless teams out there who could really push the bidding.
I'm fine with adding Rose.. if Noah is a short term deal that's fine too. To me, the bottom line will always be how we're going to build a team that can actually compete and come out of the East, though. I don't want to get stuck in purgatory again where we're not bad enough for lotto picks and not good enough to get past Cleveland.
Rose-Lee-Melo-JP-Noah, barring injury and with a decent bench, is a playoff team this year with more cap space available next year. I think that's closer to contender than purgatory.
Quote:
& the NFL. The Knicks aren't going to be able to lure the top FA's unless they start winning. 2017 might be the greatest year for star FA's in the NBA. In the NFL, as long as you have cap space,you can blow other teams out of the water(see Olivier Vernon) but in the NBA you can only offer Max which is the same for every team that is not the player's original team. So Phil is putting together what he believes is a winning team, one that hopefully can get to the playoffs.We weren't able to lure Greg Fucking Monroe here last year & KD obviously isn't coming this year.Maybe these moves don't pan out & all the doomsayers on here are right. But, if the Knicks have a good year this year, July 1st, 2017 might be something special.
You are correct that you can only draw free agents with winning, but there's quick fixes, which is what we're doing now, and sustainable winning.
Collecting a bunch of veterans with injury concerns isn't winning. it's quick fix. Noah isn't a long term fix. Rose probably isn't. It's fools gold, like the 2012 team that won a lot, but you knew all those players would be gone, and they had no future.
Even if the Knicks have a good season, it'll be because of players that aren't going to be here long term. What free agent is buying into that? You can't sell to a free agent that the NY Knicks know how to build a winner when all they do is chase their tails for big names that have been cast out from their former teams. Just having the desire and willingness to spend money isn't a measure of being able to build a winner. This is probably why they can't get anyone they want to come here.
See, I believe Noah can give the Knicks 3 good years, serve as a mentor at C for KP as he physically develops. I don't think Phil is abandoning long term, I just think he's dealing w/the hand he was dealt which was no #1 in 2 of his first 3 years.Again, the reason they can't get anyone to come here is they aren't winning. When Greg Monroe says no, you know you have to do something to change the landscape. Phil's not mortgaging the future for the present. He hasn't traded away any first round picks. Hernangomez is basically our #1 this year. All things being equal, I'm sure he'd bring in a younger player rather than an older one. But, all things aren't equal so he's trying to balance the present with the future. If he fails, we'll hear "same old Knicks" over & over again but if he succeeds, then the Zen master has returned & next year at this time we can real players for the top stars that are available.
I agree with this completely
So if knicks sign Lee as well...
Rose Lee Melo kp noah if healthy can't be the 2nd-4th best team in the east?
Before last year noah played at least 65 games and playoffs and winning years ago finished 4th in mvp voting...
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
Quote:
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I'd certainly rather have D12 and Joe Johnson/Gordon on a 1 year deal
Quote:
In comment 13015189 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I'd certainly rather have D12 and Joe Johnson/Gordon on a 1 year deal
not an option. Signing Dwight to the max means we only have about 9 mil per year left. Gordon isn't signing a 1 year 9 mm deal and I doubt Johnson is either.
Lee and noah are just better fits...
Lee shot 40% from 3 perfect guy to have when you have rose and melo
Quote:
No one will agree with me but I'd rather have Howard than Noah. At least with D12, the Knicks would have a ceiling high enough to have a chance. I wouldn't bet on them but a D12/KP/Melo frontcourt with Rose running the point could actually be exciting if it worked out. Would it? Probably not.. but I'd rather take a shot on something like that than throw 18M at Noah.
But would you rather have Noah and Lee or Howard? Because that's the real question.
I still think I'd rather have Dwight. I'd feel like with Dwight, KP, Melo and Rose we'd at least be able to "dream" of competing with the Cavs. Yes, it would take a lot of luck and things breaking right but those 4 together is probably the 2nd best team in the East.
Noah/KP/Melo/Lee/Rose is a really solid 5 and can win a couple playoff rounds if things go right but I still don't think it's good enough even if we get "best case".
I'm just looking for highest ceiling at this point.
Lee and noah are just better fits...
Lee shot 40% from 3 perfect guy to have when you have rose and melo
JJ is still better than what Afflalo gave us last year. We'd still be going into next year with upgrades at 3 positions.
If JJ was off the table I'd still prefer going into the year with Thomas as our SG if we signed D12
This team still has no shooting guard and no solid depth anywhere, it's a 3 man team at the moment and one is over the hill, one may never be the same and one who shows promise. These may all be band aids while KP develops but this team wont' compete for anything for at least 5 years and if I was a betting man, I'd say until Dolan dies or sells the team.
For what it's worth, you are posting on a GIANTS Forum. You can't understand why it gets disheartening to have to rely on oft-injured players at key positions?
Noah doesn't look like he's going to age all that well. So I'm hoping it's a 3 year deal. Someone said that he's grit player who doesn't have much explosiveness. He's not exactly Zach Randolph. He moves extremely well for a big. Very fluid athlete. I think he's lost a step or two in that regard.
I'm not going to quip about the deal too much if it's only 3 years but I think I'd still rather get Dwight Howard. Because at least we know he's going to be a top 6-7 center this season. Probably 3rd best in the east.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Did you see how he played this season? He WAS the 4th option in Houston. His scoring was predicated mostly on putbacks, rim running and lobs. Lot less PnR, which is his best skill. And he came away still averaging a double double and shooting 60%. Adapted really well to the roll. And he wanted to come here. What's he think, he's going to become the primary scorer over Melo rose and KP? Doubtful
Agreed. I wasnt for the Rose trade, but at this point it is obvious that we will not commit to the rebuild I want at this point.
That doesnt mean that we have to blow all our money in one shot. Noah for real money at 3-4 years is just a bad bet. You'd have to be a fool to think otherwise. And the NBA has a lot of fools, so someone will probably do it.
Try to sign guys in their 20s to reasonable contracts (adjusted of course for market conditions). If you dont get guys you love, then chase RFAs or do more value signings like last year with leftover cap room.
There are going to be a bunch of guys who dont get the # they want and are willing to take a 1 year deal or a 1+1 to hit the market again next year. 1+1 deals are not a big risk since the cap will go down during Summer 2018. No one will forego 2017 UFA to try again in 2018 unless they suffer a terrible injury.
I'm just not that interest in a 2012/13 Knicks redux and to me, it looks like that's where we're going.
And for as horrific as he is offensively Bulls were only 1 point better when he was out
Noah was injured last year even before it was official. Disregard those numbers.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
Quote:
a locker room cancer and a fugazi competitor.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
No way Lee gets 18M. I'd guess 8-12.
Quote:
a locker room cancer and a fugazi competitor.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
Right. $10 million is what someone posted Solomon Hill is looking at. SB's #91 UFA. Lee is their #31 UFA.
Quote:
In comment 13015323 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
a locker room cancer and a fugazi competitor.
Noah is everyone's favorite teammate and gives it all on the court. Give me Noah + Lee for the same 28-30M that Howard is going to get.
Well assuming Lee costs $10M. Might be off by as much as $8M on that according to some reports.
No way Lee gets 18M. I'd guess 8-12.
If that's the case then it's a different story completely. That's definetly what he SHOULD cost. But Noah SHOULD have costed around $14-15M. We'll find out soon enough
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Quote:
And Joey what are you talking about?
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Because once they're drafted it's not a draft pick anymore, so it becomes convenient to use the "not trading 1st rounders" argument to support your argument.
Last year was a fluke shoulder injury and if nothing else, it allowed him to heal his lower half. Personally, I hope they don't go 4 years on the deal as that's too much risk, but less than that I can live with. They will still have plenty of room under the cap the next few seasons with Noah on the books. They have 3 players on long term deals, it's not like they will be cap strapped like years past.
This current offseason is NOTHING like ones of the past, not even close. We still have flexibility, we didn't give away any picks and we brought in proven winners.
Quote:
And Joey what are you talking about?
Knicks have not sacrificed their future one bit...
They have all their draft picks and Phil has actually accumulated draft picks not traded them away...
If it doesn't work this year, rose goes and knicks have max space...
If if it does work you resign rose and still have 20 million to spend...
The knicks are very flexible right now and far from a finished project...
This isn't like trading for Melo and being capped out with no young players or signing chandler and being locked in...
Team has plenty of flexibility to keep adding pieces
How is trading Jerian Grant after one season for an expiring contract not sacrificing their future one bit?
How is it that people view keeping all future draft picks as proof positive of protecting the future, and just ignore the trading of your most recent #1 pick. They're pretty similar.
Because obviously Phil did not view grant as a future piece..
And I'll ask again what did you think grants ceiling was?
Rose is still only 4 years older than grant
He showed glimpses last year but all we b heard was he was nba ready right away and he showed nothing last year...
Because obviously Phil did not view grant as a future piece..
You have literally no basis for stating this. Because he was traded, he is not viewed as a future piece? All you know is that the Knicks preferred Rose over Grant/Lopez/Calderon. Maybe Phil had marching orders. Maybe Phil is contemplating his own mortality and views his window as 2 years tops. Maybe he just believes Rose will be fully recovered and that's way better than Grant.
Why do you keep asking. I've said it time and again -- Reggie Jackson. Similar profiles coming in, similar struggles first year. I'd be pretty surprised if Grant wasnt at least a pretty good 3rd guard, which is valuable too.
Rose is still only 4 years older than grant [/quote]
Subterfuge. One guy has little mileage on him, and the other guy's game has gone way down hill after years of injury. This is a frankly silly point. It's literally one piece of information, ignoring injury and cost control etc.
If they give Noah 18 million I won't give a shit as long as it's one year. Maybe two.
I think it's gonna be a two year deal. It has to be. Phil has been so careful with contracts since coming aboard. It's been the one thing along with KP he has nailed. If he gives out a long term deal to Noah it spits in the face of logic and long term planning. Until they announce the deal I won't panic.
I don't disagree with any of this, but somewhat ironically, Grant started to really come on at the end of the year.
17 and 7 on 48% shooting shows he is not completely finished
Think about the last 15 years and how many young rookie knicks came along that showed promise year one only to shit the bed soon after. The Knicks need to do KP right. Even if Noah misses 25 games next season his leadership won't be overlooked here. Sign him. Two years.
He showed glimpses last year but all we b heard was he was nba ready right away and he showed nothing last year...
Anybody who thinks any college player is a finish product is a fucking idiot.
There was a knock on Grant that his age probably limited his ceiling. I think that's a real issue but overblown. I think experience is more of a ceiling limiting factor than age. Indeed, I think there are counter arguments based on physical development that would lead you to conclude that in some ways Grant has more upside (ie room for improvement) than Mudiay physically. Mudiay is a better athlete than Grant and that wont change, but his body is more "finished" than Grant's (so dont misunderstand me to be saying Grant has a higher ceiling than Mudiay). Grant never committed to strength training.
This is Noah's people floating that number around.
2 year deal-Great deal
3 year deal-I'm a little concerned, but we can live with it
4 year deal-Ok, this is too much risk considering our current flexibility.
If he isn't you let him expire and move on
If they give Noah 18 million I won't give a shit as long as it's one year. Maybe two.
I think it's gonna be a two year deal. It has to be. Phil has been so careful with contracts since coming aboard. It's been the one thing along with KP he has nailed. If he gives out a long term deal to Noah it spits in the face of logic and long term planning. Until they announce the deal I won't panic.
That's mostly right. The real worry is that he gets 3-4 years. And while the smart move is to give 2, there are some hopeless teams out there who could really push the bidding.
Rose-Lee-Melo-JP-Noah, barring injury and with a decent bench, is a playoff team this year with more cap space available next year. I think that's closer to contender than purgatory.