with young unknown talent than older talent with some injury risk. Either way the odds of winning a ring are incredibly slim and require a lot of luck. However if Rose can get to all star form, Noah returns to pre-injury form, KP takes a big step and Carmelo still is most of Carmelo, the Knicks have a very real chance at a title.
Is that likely? No, but neither is landing a franchise player by tanking year after year as so many fans are in favor of. And Robin Lopez and Jarien Fn Grant don't give you a better chance at a ring then Rose. There may be more downside with Rose, but there's certainly more upside. And championships are all about best case scenarios.
RE: The plan should be to not put big money into players
who play 50-60 games a year. Let's start there and work our way up.
I asked a couple of days ago. What was the plan and when did it change? Listening to Joe Benigno today. He summed it up. The plan is that Phil said "I am Phil Jackson and I can not leave NYC without ever making the playoffs"
is to open the 2017 season with a starting lineup of Russell Westbrook, Courtney Lee, Carmelo Anthony, Kristaps Porzingis and Joakim Noah. I'm willing to put the tank on hold until we see what the summer of 2017 brings.
you should build a winning team sooner rather than later. I think Phil has done a great job of building a good team around Melo(so far), while keeping our long term flexibility.
the tandem of Rose/Holliday/noah make you a much better team than that of Grant/Lopez/Calderon.
We dont have Noah. If we get Noah, it will be at substantially more salary cost than the threesome we shipped out. So why wouldnt the far comp be, say, Rose/Holiday/Noah to Grant/Lopez/Calderon/Bazemore?
Also, with Rose you put all your eggs in the 2016-17 basket, whereas Grant was going to give cost controlled production for years to come (possibly, of course).
Also, it's far from clear that you're even right. I wouldnt bet on Noah being better than Lopez going forward with any confidence. Rose has way more talent than the Knicks two guards. But Rose's WS for the last three seasons is -.2, 1.2, and .4. Calderon was 4.0 last season. Grant was .8 (Reggie Jackson was a .1 in year on, 2.5 in year 2). Let us not crown Rose as the MVP reborn just yet please. It's a win now move that doesnt obviously make us better.
Completely Forgot about Biyombo. I think for the same cost I'd go for him over Noah. It's probably about the same amount of risk but his prime will line up with KP's. He can switch screens and protect the rim which is pretty ideal for a modern big
the tandem of Rose/Holliday/noah make you a much better team than that of Grant/Lopez/Calderon.
We dont have Noah. If we get Noah, it will be at substantially more salary cost than the threesome we shipped out. So why wouldnt the far comp be, say, Rose/Holiday/Noah to Grant/Lopez/Calderon/Bazemore?
Also, with Rose you put all your eggs in the 2016-17 basket, whereas Grant was going to give cost controlled production for years to come (possibly, of course).
Also, it's far from clear that you're even right. I wouldnt bet on Noah being better than Lopez going forward with any confidence. Rose has way more talent than the Knicks two guards. But Rose's WS for the last three seasons is -.2, 1.2, and .4. Calderon was 4.0 last season. Grant was .8 (Reggie Jackson was a .1 in year on, 2.5 in year 2). Let us not crown Rose as the MVP reborn just yet please. It's a win now move that doesnt obviously make us better.
You are absolutely not going all in for 2016 with Rose. In fact, he's the exact opposite, in that it's an expiring deal. If he sucks, you move on next year and make a play for Westbrook, Lowry, etc.
And we all agree on one thing (gulp) here's to hopefully improving our team in the short and long term!!! We all love our Knicks (minus some Net fans), Let's hope we get better! Get a few pieces to the puzzle so we don't waste our summer watching summer league and praying we get this guy or that guy. In Phil we Trust! (Unless he fucks up)!!!!!!!!
Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
and if he signs with the Knicks he plays most of the games. If it's 3 years or less I like the idea of him being a leader for the Knicks and mentoring KP.
Haha, that's a long shot. But I love Biyombo. He brings big energy. Watching him smile everytime he made a play in the playoffs was quite something. He is pretty much a 6'9" version of Deandre Jordan. Except FTs isn't an issue.
every time a rumor gets floated about the Knicks the fans go fucking ape shit and cry about Dolan and same old Knicks. Not once under Phil has ANY of these so called horrible rumors come to fruition. Not one. Even the Rose deal only really stings because of Grant. We got a pick back in case anyone forgot.
Let the deal get announced first before some of you tell us to wake the hell up. Wake up from what? You're the one living in a made up nightmare by some twitter feed. You should wake up and let reality dictate things.
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
It says a lot that the Rose trade and FA have inspired this much
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
some of us fail to admit that there's risk with everything. If Phil sits back and goes scorched earth it's a risk. The Knicks could sit in the lottery for the next 5 years and have NOTHING to show for it. They could win a combined 120 games over 5 years if they did things the "right way."
Not signing Noah comes with a risk. The Knicks may not be able to sign another center if they lose out on Noah. Maybe they are stuck signing Mozgov for close to the same amount and maybe Phil feels that a leader like Noah is crucial to KP's development.
Not trading for Rose brings risk. The KNicks have no PG on the roster and Grant is unproven to say the least. If you go into the 2016 season with no playmaker at PG the team will be lucky to win 40 games even if things break right. They had to do something. There was limited FA talent at PG this summer.
IT's easy to sit here and bash every move when just about every move comes with risk. Phil is doing what he can to improve the team without obliterating the cap flexibility. Good luck with that. And thanks to the prior regimes for trading all of our fucking draft picks.
how could it possibly be true? What about tampering rules?
Anyone have an answer for this?
Just a guess, but perhaps Noah's reps leaked that number to put some public pressure on the Knicks or other potential suitors? Though I'd imagine there is a great deal of tampering that goes on.
Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
I am not being intentionally dense, I am however refuting the garbage that you are spewing.
So you are saying that the Knicks would have been better off not making this trade and instead maxing out Bazemore? So Calderon, Bazemore, Melo, KP, Lopez is a team you want to go to battle with???
RE: RE: The plan should be to not put big money into players
who play 50-60 games a year. Let's start there and work our way up.
I asked a couple of days ago. What was the plan and when did it change? Listening to Joe Benigno today. He summed it up. The plan is that Phil said "I am Phil Jackson and I can not leave NYC without ever making the playoffs"
It has been about Phil's rep and legacy.
That's a complete and utter steaming pile of bullshit. And Joe Beningo is a total idiot when it comes to his own teams and objectivity. The guy is literally incapable of rational thought when it comes to the Mets, Knicks, Rangers and Jets. Fact.
Phil hasn't done one thing to indicate he's in panic win now mode. Even the trade for Rose is more of a shot in the dark--low risk medium reward type move. Rose is a stop gap addition because we had NOTHING at guard.
Phil's legacy is fully established. The guy will be remembered as the most successful HC of all time. He's taking the long game here with the Knicks and every move he made, save for MAYBE the Rose deal, screams long game. And even the Rose deal is more in the middle with very little long term downside.
Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
I am not being intentionally dense, I am however refuting the garbage that you are spewing.
So you are saying that the Knicks would have been better off not making this trade and instead maxing out Bazemore? So Calderon, Bazemore, Melo, KP, Lopez is a team you want to go to battle with???
No, I was doing a more apples for apples comparison. Rose + Noah was not a fair comp to Lopez + Grant + JC because the later group would give us 18 million more cap space this year. So I threw out a name that would cost about that much and fill another hole (Bazemore).
I dont want to go to battle with Rose and Noah, so there's that. Rose and Noah and Melo and KP aint winning a title. Given the likelihood of injury Im not even sure it gets you a home court round in the playoffs.
If I had my druthers we'd trade Melo. That's not on the table, and I get that. But I'd almost pretend like he isnt there. Sign a Bazemore if you like him. Sign a RFA and hope the other team doesnt match. Build on young, tradable assets.
I don't know who all these great players are that we can spend our cap money on. Bazemore? Clearly players aren't lining up to play with Lopez and Calderon. Seems like Rose has already brought interest.
Phil did a great job balancing Melo's career path without mortgaging the future at all. It's really that simple. I don't know what else we could have done considering our circumstances.
isn't every GM in this thing to cement his legacy?
Many Knicks fans hate Phil Jackson and can't wait to shovel dirt on this guy if he fucks up here in NY. Even some posters on this thread, some of them will, some of them won't admit it, but many on here hate Jackson and look for anything to get on his case.
When I see someone say Phil is only in this for his legacy it only cements my belief. OF course he's in it for his legacy, he wants to win. He wants to fix the Knicks. That's a good thing isn't it?
They are all in it for their legacy. Ernie Accorsi traded the sun, moon and stars for Eli so he could catch his white whale and cement his legacy. Thankfully it worked.
I feel confident that this year's team will be better than last years'
I don't know who all these great players are that we can spend our cap money on. Bazemore? Clearly players aren't lining up to play with Lopez and Calderon. Seems like Rose has already brought interest.
Phil did a great job balancing Melo's career path without mortgaging the future at all. It's really that simple. I don't know what else we could have done considering our circumstances.
Has he? It's not even clear we'll get a meeting with either of the two most coveted UFAs.
Is that likely? No, but neither is landing a franchise player by tanking year after year as so many fans are in favor of. And Robin Lopez and Jarien Fn Grant don't give you a better chance at a ring then Rose. There may be more downside with Rose, but there's certainly more upside. And championships are all about best case scenarios.
I asked a couple of days ago. What was the plan and when did it change? Listening to Joe Benigno today. He summed it up. The plan is that Phil said "I am Phil Jackson and I can not leave NYC without ever making the playoffs"
It has been about Phil's rep and legacy.
We dont have Noah. If we get Noah, it will be at substantially more salary cost than the threesome we shipped out. So why wouldnt the far comp be, say, Rose/Holiday/Noah to Grant/Lopez/Calderon/Bazemore?
Also, with Rose you put all your eggs in the 2016-17 basket, whereas Grant was going to give cost controlled production for years to come (possibly, of course).
Also, it's far from clear that you're even right. I wouldnt bet on Noah being better than Lopez going forward with any confidence. Rose has way more talent than the Knicks two guards. But Rose's WS for the last three seasons is -.2, 1.2, and .4. Calderon was 4.0 last season. Grant was .8 (Reggie Jackson was a .1 in year on, 2.5 in year 2). Let us not crown Rose as the MVP reborn just yet please. It's a win now move that doesnt obviously make us better.
Calderon is expiring this year.
Quote:
the tandem of Rose/Holliday/noah make you a much better team than that of Grant/Lopez/Calderon.
We dont have Noah. If we get Noah, it will be at substantially more salary cost than the threesome we shipped out. So why wouldnt the far comp be, say, Rose/Holiday/Noah to Grant/Lopez/Calderon/Bazemore?
Also, with Rose you put all your eggs in the 2016-17 basket, whereas Grant was going to give cost controlled production for years to come (possibly, of course).
Also, it's far from clear that you're even right. I wouldnt bet on Noah being better than Lopez going forward with any confidence. Rose has way more talent than the Knicks two guards. But Rose's WS for the last three seasons is -.2, 1.2, and .4. Calderon was 4.0 last season. Grant was .8 (Reggie Jackson was a .1 in year on, 2.5 in year 2). Let us not crown Rose as the MVP reborn just yet please. It's a win now move that doesnt obviously make us better.
You are absolutely not going all in for 2016 with Rose. In fact, he's the exact opposite, in that it's an expiring deal. If he sucks, you move on next year and make a play for Westbrook, Lowry, etc.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
Haha, that's a long shot. But I love Biyombo. He brings big energy. Watching him smile everytime he made a play in the playoffs was quite something. He is pretty much a 6'9" version of Deandre Jordan. Except FTs isn't an issue.
Let the deal get announced first before some of you tell us to wake the hell up. Wake up from what? You're the one living in a made up nightmare by some twitter feed. You should wake up and let reality dictate things.
Right.
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
Quote:
I will take Bismark!
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
/thread
Who are DeRozen and Bismark?
Bazemore is 26
Biyimbo is 23
Turner is 27
Some combo of the above, would allow is to grow as a team over 2-4 years.
Anyone have an answer for this?
Quote:
I will take Bismark!
I dont know. Bismark did a good job unifying the German states, so he might be a good locker room/glue guy. On the other hand he really crapped the bed in the Finals.
It would suck if we signed someone and that directly lead to Hitler. To risky IMO.
*dead*
Quote:
I will take Bismark!
Who are DeRozen and Bismark?
The predecessors to Lowell and Hardee
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Not signing Noah comes with a risk. The Knicks may not be able to sign another center if they lose out on Noah. Maybe they are stuck signing Mozgov for close to the same amount and maybe Phil feels that a leader like Noah is crucial to KP's development.
Not trading for Rose brings risk. The KNicks have no PG on the roster and Grant is unproven to say the least. If you go into the 2016 season with no playmaker at PG the team will be lucky to win 40 games even if things break right. They had to do something. There was limited FA talent at PG this summer.
IT's easy to sit here and bash every move when just about every move comes with risk. Phil is doing what he can to improve the team without obliterating the cap flexibility. Good luck with that. And thanks to the prior regimes for trading all of our fucking draft picks.
Quote:
how could it possibly be true? What about tampering rules?
Anyone have an answer for this?
Just a guess, but perhaps Noah's reps leaked that number to put some public pressure on the Knicks or other potential suitors? Though I'd imagine there is a great deal of tampering that goes on.
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
Quote:
Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
I am not being intentionally dense, I am however refuting the garbage that you are spewing.
So you are saying that the Knicks would have been better off not making this trade and instead maxing out Bazemore? So Calderon, Bazemore, Melo, KP, Lopez is a team you want to go to battle with???
Quote:
who play 50-60 games a year. Let's start there and work our way up.
I asked a couple of days ago. What was the plan and when did it change? Listening to Joe Benigno today. He summed it up. The plan is that Phil said "I am Phil Jackson and I can not leave NYC without ever making the playoffs"
It has been about Phil's rep and legacy.
That's a complete and utter steaming pile of bullshit. And Joe Beningo is a total idiot when it comes to his own teams and objectivity. The guy is literally incapable of rational thought when it comes to the Mets, Knicks, Rangers and Jets. Fact.
Phil hasn't done one thing to indicate he's in panic win now mode. Even the trade for Rose is more of a shot in the dark--low risk medium reward type move. Rose is a stop gap addition because we had NOTHING at guard.
Phil's legacy is fully established. The guy will be remembered as the most successful HC of all time. He's taking the long game here with the Knicks and every move he made, save for MAYBE the Rose deal, screams long game. And even the Rose deal is more in the middle with very little long term downside.
Bangs head against the wall...over and over.
Quote:
Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
Tomorrow afternoon rather.
Quote:
Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
So he is reporting that we plan on tampering to get a <12 hour advantage?
Quote:
In comment 13015689 Anakim said:
Quote:
Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
So he is reporting that we plan on tampering to get a <12 hour advantage?
Relax. I corrected myself.
Quote:
In comment 13015613 Keith said:
Quote:
Not quite. It will be 18 more this year, in a year when we have a ton of cap room and it will be 4 million next year when Rose comes off the books.
You're being intentionally dense. 1) 18 million more is significant. 2) dep's point was re having Noah and Rose on the court instead of Grant/Lopez/JC. Having Rose means the season(s) that you're paying Rose.
I am not being intentionally dense, I am however refuting the garbage that you are spewing.
So you are saying that the Knicks would have been better off not making this trade and instead maxing out Bazemore? So Calderon, Bazemore, Melo, KP, Lopez is a team you want to go to battle with???
No, I was doing a more apples for apples comparison. Rose + Noah was not a fair comp to Lopez + Grant + JC because the later group would give us 18 million more cap space this year. So I threw out a name that would cost about that much and fill another hole (Bazemore).
I dont want to go to battle with Rose and Noah, so there's that. Rose and Noah and Melo and KP aint winning a title. Given the likelihood of injury Im not even sure it gets you a home court round in the playoffs.
If I had my druthers we'd trade Melo. That's not on the table, and I get that. But I'd almost pretend like he isnt there. Sign a Bazemore if you like him. Sign a RFA and hope the other team doesnt match. Build on young, tradable assets.
Quote:
In comment 13015700 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 13015689 Anakim said:
Quote:
Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Joakim Noah is meeting with Phil Jackson and Knicks brass at 12:01 AM tonight. (Y!)
Fwiw, Berman says it's happening this afternoon.
So he is reporting that we plan on tampering to get a <12 hour advantage?
Relax. I corrected myself.
Well, I obviously hadnt seen you second post when I posted this.
Well, I obviously hadnt seen you second post when I posted this.
I'll let you off the hook...this time.
Phil did a great job balancing Melo's career path without mortgaging the future at all. It's really that simple. I don't know what else we could have done considering our circumstances.
Many Knicks fans hate Phil Jackson and can't wait to shovel dirt on this guy if he fucks up here in NY. Even some posters on this thread, some of them will, some of them won't admit it, but many on here hate Jackson and look for anything to get on his case.
When I see someone say Phil is only in this for his legacy it only cements my belief. OF course he's in it for his legacy, he wants to win. He wants to fix the Knicks. That's a good thing isn't it?
They are all in it for their legacy. Ernie Accorsi traded the sun, moon and stars for Eli so he could catch his white whale and cement his legacy. Thankfully it worked.
Phil did a great job balancing Melo's career path without mortgaging the future at all. It's really that simple. I don't know what else we could have done considering our circumstances.
Has he? It's not even clear we'll get a meeting with either of the two most coveted UFAs.
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
I guess it depends on what you're getting out of Rose.
fml, obviously Rose/Melo/KP/Noah is not a trio.
I need a coffee.