Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account
@WojVerticalNBA
Sources: Clippers officials met with Austin Rivers Thursday in Orlando, and Rivers is expected to talk with Knicks, possibly Portland Friday
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Vertical Sources: Joakim Noah and the New York Knicks are in discussions on the framework of a deal in range of four years, $70M-plus.
Alex Kennedy @AlexKennedyNBA
Courtney Lee's first call after free agency started was from the New York Knicks. Phil Jackson called him, according to league source.
RE: I wonder if there will be options in the middle of the deal
Sam Amick @sam_amick
As others reported, the Joakim Noah-to-NY storyline continues. Looking like a four-year, $72 mil deal, assuming meeting goes well tomorrow.
Sam Amick @sam_amick
The Joakim Noah-to-NY deal isn't done, but I'm told the fourth year of the $72 mil deal - as currently discussed - would be guaranteed.
Literally do nothing significant in FA than to sign Noah to this deal. So we basically gave up Lopez for one year of Rose. I thought it was for the Cap Space but to spend that space on an aging replacement coming off of significant injuries makes little sense to me.
Give a breakdown of Courtney Lee's game? I'm very unfamiliar with him.
More a less a guy who shoots 3s and guards 1s and 2s pretty damn well. Not much outside of it but sticks to the two things he does well. Kinda too small to play the 3.
He's known to be a good finisher as well but I think that part of his game has eroded over the last few years. Or a change in role perhaps.
Literally do nothing significant in FA than to sign Noah to this deal. So we basically gave up Lopez for one year of Rose. I thought it was for the Cap Space but to spend that space on an aging replacement coming off of significant injuries makes little sense to me.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what saving cap space really does for us. Unless they really think they can get Westbrook. Otherwise there's not much reason to save it if they have faith that rose will be the PG for the long term
Literally do nothing significant in FA than to sign Noah to this deal. So we basically gave up Lopez for one year of Rose. I thought it was for the Cap Space but to spend that space on an aging replacement coming off of significant injuries makes little sense to me.
The cap is going to jump again to 110 million and then may jump again..
Don't look at the number, look at the percentage of the cap and the starting salary will be less than lopez...
Literally do nothing significant in FA than to sign Noah to this deal. So we basically gave up Lopez for one year of Rose. I thought it was for the Cap Space but to spend that space on an aging replacement coming off of significant injuries makes little sense to me.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what saving cap space really does for us. Unless they really think they can get Westbrook. Otherwise there's not much reason to save it if they have faith that rose will be the PG for the long term
I think this is the plan, both Phil and hornacek talked like they had a big 3 and we're looking for pieces to surround them..
Phil basically said they want rose long term as long as he stays healthy this year
Spending money, I mind soending it on older, injured players. Its more of the same. Im not saying that they need to save the cap money for next year, I just dont see the point of dumping Lopez for one year of Rose when we go out and spend all the money we would have saved in the next few years on an older player coming off of a significant injury.
Its not the money, its the years and the fact that the Knicks continue making the same mistakes bringing in post-prime players for big bucks hoping things will get better.
It isn't dumping the salary it's moving a player with low ceiling who's replaceable for the potential of rose. If rose doesn't work out then you don't resign him and have a ton of cap space. It's a win win. Noah's deal isn't far off from what Lopez got. Paying Noah 17 a year is pretty similar to what Lopez got based on the salary cap rising. Noah, when healthy, is a better fit than Lopez for what the Knicks want to do. He's a great passer and a better on ball defender. You also can't discount the experience he has playing alongside rose.
It isn't dumping the salary it's moving a player with low ceiling who's replaceable for the potential of rose. If rose doesn't work out then you don't resign him and have a ton of cap space. It's a win win. Noah's deal isn't far off from what Lopez got. Paying Noah 17 a year is pretty similar to what Lopez got based on the salary cap rising. Noah, when healthy, is a better fit than Lopez for what the Knicks want to do. He's a great passer and a better on ball defender. You also can't discount the experience he has playing alongside rose.
When a description has to be prefaced with "when healthy" that doesn't insight confidence in me. I am an enormous Supporter of Phil. I have liked more of the moves he made than most, particularly because he has shown patience. But Noah is 31, coming off of a significant injury and a four year deal is just spending foolishly because the Cap is going up. 35 year old Noah making 18 mil is not going to help this team. I dont like the investment and I dont care that that one contract wont destroy the frnchise, it is still significant enough despite any rise in the cap.
I liked the move to dump Lopez for Rose because I thought we may invest the money saved wisely. Spending it on a player who is years older than Lopez, hasn't played a full season in two years and will be signing a four year deal is not spending it wisely. I dont expect either player to make it through this season.
As we see with Parsons/Beal getting the max & Mozgov getting 16.5 million you really aren't able to spend the money wisely. We have to put together a team.
We haven't been able to sign star free agents for years so why would that change with cap space next year? Especially if we continue to be a shitty team. The Knicks have to win games for us to have any shot at getting a guy like Westbrook. Noah is a far better player then Mozgov. What are we going to do sign guys like Mozgov to win the same amount of games as we did last year? Then next summer we are in the same place as befote. Nobody wants to play for a 32 win team, but if Rose & Noah plus a guy like Lee/Gordon can get us to 45-50 wins we might be able to lure a big name free agent to NY.
We have to make good depth signings. That's going to be vital to our success. In my opinion a starting 5 of Rose/Lee(Gordon)/Melo/KP/Noah is much better then Calderon/Afflalo/Melo/KP/Lopez
Can't disagree with that. Your right. It's a huge gamble on a guy who isn't healthy but the best news is that Noah's injuries are not to his lower body and for a big to have solid legs/knees/feet is huge. He can come back from shoulder issues. Your definitely correct though in regard to giving big money to older players but look at what is happening. Mozgov getting bucks. Gasol highly sought after. I think Noah is one of the better free agent bigs out there, not to mention Dwight looking for 22 million. It's comical. Noah seems like a steal compared to what the market is dictating. Time will tell, we shall see who the starting 2 guard will be. I'm hoping lee buys into what Phil is selling and our lineup all of a sudden looks like a top 3-4 team in the east pending bench signings. Hopefully we retain Galloway, Thomas bring back Williams and sign Crawford as the 6th man. Things will look a lot brighter for the Knicks.
I'm very happy about Noah. I really think he will drive in New York. Unlike Whiteside & Dwight we know Joakim will give it 110% every game. I'm so excited to root for Joakim. He's probably the nicest guy in the NBA off the court. I just hope he returns to his DPOY form.
Dwight is looking for at least 24 million. Both Dwight & Whiteside are going to get 24-25 million.
I've seen a lot of people that are worried about giving Whiteside that much money in fear that he will get complacent & basically stop trying. I think the same can be said for Dwight. Yes they are both better then Joakim, but they are going to make 7 million more per season. We know Joakim is going to give 110% on every play of every game.
Yea sorry meant 24 for Dwight. Whiteside seems like a guy who doesn't care much about winning and losing he just wants his pay day. We're in agreement about Noah. Love his game love his hustle will fit right into New York. He's Oakley reincarnated as far as attitude something that is lost in today's NBA. For the first time in a while I'm excited with this team.
We aren't going to win a title. Give me a competitive team that's fun to watch. That's basically all we can root for at this moment. A team of Rose/Lee(Gordon)/Melo/KP/Noah should be quite fun to watch. Especially if KP progresses as much as I think he will.
show on ESPN. He's not Skip/Stephen A popular, but he's on there often. He said a lot of teams are worried about Whiteside getting complacent.
He also has mutual friends with Dwight & he's heard the same thing about him from both NBA teams & their mutual friends. He flat out said Dwight doesn't care about winning. He said Dwight would much rather make a ton of money then win a gold ring. He said all Dwight cares about is making sure his family is set for life. Which is cool I completely understand that. I just wouldn't want him on my team.
Only 27 I love that no matter what direction Phil goes,negativity follows. Yesterday,it was Lee is already 30, can't we sign guys under 30.We need a 3 & D SG & the 2 best available within reason are Lee/Gordon Lee supposedly has a meeting today in Orlando w/Knicks Maybe Phil is looking at which one will take less so he can offer Rivers as a backup PG
Those beat writers are just throwing shit on a wall
And hope something sticks. They know we need a shooting guard, knicks will do their due diligence. we have several on the radar. We still have a meeting with courtney lee for fuckboys sakes.
These beat writers just want to beat each other to the punch.
These beat writers are just throwing shit on a wall
and hope something sticks. They know we need a shooting guard, Knicks will do their due diligence. We have several SG"s on the radar. We still have a meeting with courtney lee for fucks sake.
These beat writers just want to beat each other to the punch.
its really the years that bother me. If Mozgov gets 16.5 then Noah is worth 18, but did we have to give 4 years to a big man who could be starting to break down? THis also feels a lot like the Lopez signing last year. I wasnt initially thrilled with 4/52 but once you see all the other contracts (and the following years contracts it starts to look like a good deal).
Gordon on the other hand would really piss me off. How many injury risks do we need. Unless he is coming super cheap like 6-8 per for a 2 year deal or an overpay on a one year deal I want no part of him.
the Knicks should really sit the next wave out. This is usually the massive overpay wave. You have your high end guys sign quickly and then teams start jumping at that next tier. We could probably wait a few days or a week and then sign a few players with our remaining money that can help the team. I feel like after the first couple waves there are always so many teams who sign guys and i think "Wow thats a great deal for them".
Another NBA source told The Post the Knicks interest in the 6-foot-4 Gordon is gaining heavy traction within the organization as they desperately search for an affordable starting shooting guard.
Rose and Garden have a nice history once called The Eric and Derrick Show. Rose and Gordon were teammates on a Chicago-based AAU team, called the Mean Streets Express. Some still regard it as the best backcourt tandem in AAU history.
We just played well together, Gordon said in 2011. At that time, we just wanted to show people that were trying to be the best out there. We jelled together. We both played up-tempo games and loved to attack the basket. Link - ( New Window )
In search of a backup point guard, the Knicks also reached out at midnight to the reps of combo guard Austin Rivers, Docs son, who played for the Clippers last season. and averaged 8.9 points and 1.5 assists. Rivers could command a salary starting at $5 million, according to a source, as he begins his fifth season out of Duke.
is ALWAYS hurt and hasn't been a good player since 2012. Pass.
Mozgov isn't a great value but he's been a better player then Noah the last few years. Yeesh.
In what world was mozgov better than Noah 3 years ago? Noah was 1st team all NBA. Two years ago Noah was a better rebounder, passer, and defender. So are you going by last year where Mozgoz was essentially benched to a guy who was injured all year?
If we're giving Noah 4 years I'm going to be pissed.
and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
saying that Noah is good for a 2 or 1 year deal sound retarded. The guy is a pro athlete looking to cement his last longer term deal of his career. He's 31. The back end of his prime. It's final paycheck time. His agents know this is his last hurrah. They're not going to waste it on short term deals so that idiotic Knick fans can feel good about their wiggle room.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I don't want 4 years either so if there is a team option for the 4th year it becomes a little better...
saying that Noah is good for a 2 or 1 year deal sound retarded. The guy is a pro athlete looking to cement his last longer term deal of his career. He's 31. The back end of his prime. It's final paycheck time. His agents know this is his last hurrah. They're not going to waste it on short term deals so that idiotic Knick fans can feel good about their wiggle room.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
He was a top defensive center 3 years ago.
Your broader point is correct. He wants 4 years not two. Doesnt mean WE should give it to him. Let another team make that mistake. Notice how Noah isnt fleecing 4 years off the best run teams.
Knicks have sucked for a decade plus largely because everyone plans for the next year, maybe two years, with zero focus on the long term. Looked like Phil was reversing that, but if this offseason is 4 years for Noah and the Rose trade, I'll have to reassess on that.
is ALWAYS hurt and hasn't been a good player since 2012. Pass.
Mozgov isn't a great value but he's been a better player then Noah the last few years. Yeesh.
In what world was mozgov better than Noah 3 years ago? Noah was 1st team all NBA. Two years ago Noah was a better rebounder, passer, and defender. So are you going by last year where Mozgoz was essentially benched to a guy who was injured all year?
That's why I said he hasn't been good since 14, playa.
and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I thought it was jumping like 20M in each of the next two years, no? Wasn't the TV deal 9 years?
saying that Noah is good for a 2 or 1 year deal sound retarded. The guy is a pro athlete looking to cement his last longer term deal of his career. He's 31. The back end of his prime. It's final paycheck time. His agents know this is his last hurrah. They're not going to waste it on short term deals so that idiotic Knick fans can feel good about their wiggle room.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
He was a top defensive center 3 years ago.
Your broader point is correct. He wants 4 years not two. Doesnt mean WE should give it to him. Let another team make that mistake. Notice how Noah isnt fleecing 4 years off the best run teams.
Knicks have sucked for a decade plus largely because everyone plans for the next year, maybe two years, with zero focus on the long term. Looked like Phil was reversing that, but if this offseason is 4 years for Noah and the Rose trade, I'll have to reassess on that.
The Noah deal is middle of the road. It's whatever. It's not the best or the worst. But, to pretend we can sign a proven vet to a cheap team-friendly short-term deal is ridiculous. He costs what he costs. He's better than Lopez. He's still reasonably young. You guys are acting like this is some A-Rod deal where he's going to be getting 18 mill to play on crutches in his 40s. The guy would be 35 by deal end.
The real questions aren't for this year anyway. I don't think Rose is the future of the franchise. I don't think he was brought here to be. Next offseason, to me, seems to be the most important point for our future. So long as Phil keeps us afloat until then, reserving our picks and shoring up the team with regard to that and bringing in a marquis guy, which he has been, we're not any worse off.
I'm not sure why that was even being discussed. Knicks had the inside track because of Rose, but it's not like Noah is some 35-36 year old looking to latch onto a championship team.
4 years hurts, but some part of this deal was going to hurt. If it breaks down to 15 or 16m per year, I think it could've been worse.
and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I thought it was jumping like 20M in each of the next two years, no? Wasn't the TV deal 9 years?
This year is jump 1, next year is jump 2. For some reason it then goes down. I think there is a balloon payment next year or something. Next year is an aberration. i.e. 2018-19 will be higher than 2016-17 -- it is 2017-18 that is a one-off.
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
Their actions don't suggest they're that concerned with the future right now.
I can't assume they're banking on Rose to be the guy they're counting on long term. It would be highly irresponsible given his injury history and declined performance to make that part of their long term thinking. He's got to have at least one healthy year and play like a start to have that conversation.
Noah. Even if we take your arbitrary point of the year after Noah had an awesome year you pretty much have 2015 where at best you could say they were close as players and then last year when Noah was hurt. Plus its not like Moz is some kid with upside. He will be 30 in like 2 weeks, basically a year and a half younger then Noah.
But Deej is right about mortgaging the future. You're not exactly setting yourself up to attract Westbrook next off season. If Rose doesn't workout you target CP3 or Lowry, who will age with our roster anyways. Westbrook would be doing a disservice to himself by signing with 3 over the hill starters on their last legs.
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
It's not like Westbrook would be "alone". He'd also have an ascending KP to play alongside.
And if by some chance the Knicks can make the ECF in 2016/17, it's going to be a lot more enticing to FAs like Westbrook to join them.
in Austin Rivers. He just isnt very good. I mean the rumored price of 5 mill is basically a min deal at this point, although id rather take a shot on some other PG's for even less money. It sounds like some of the attraction to Gordon is it leaves us a bit more money to go for a backup PG. That said how much better is Rivers then whoever we could get in a week or two for a couple mill instead of 5. I know with Rose's history we need a backup PG who is solid, but im not sure that is Rivers.
and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I thought it was jumping like 20M in each of the next two years, no? Wasn't the TV deal 9 years?
This year is jump 1, next year is jump 2. For some reason it then goes down. I think there is a balloon payment next year or something. Next year is an aberration. i.e. 2018-19 will be higher than 2016-17 -- it is 2017-18 that is a one-off.
I think.
Thanks, I keep hearing conflicting things as far as this goes so I wasn't sure.
saying that Noah is good for a 2 or 1 year deal sound retarded. The guy is a pro athlete looking to cement his last longer term deal of his career. He's 31. The back end of his prime. It's final paycheck time. His agents know this is his last hurrah. They're not going to waste it on short term deals so that idiotic Knick fans can feel good about their wiggle room.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
^This. But Id pass on the 4/72 unless the last year isnt guaranteed. Unfortunately, thats the market. Look at what Mozgov got from the Lakers. Ridiculous.
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
It's not like Westbrook would be "alone". He'd also have an ascending KP to play alongside.
And if by some chance the Knicks can make the ECF in 2016/17, it's going to be a lot more enticing to FAs like Westbrook to join them.
But if they're good enough to make the ECF in '16/17 doesn't that probably mean rose has a pretty good season? Then it would seem they would extend rose and fill out their bench with the cap space.
Yeah Westbrook wouldn't be alone with KP. But he wouldn't be alone with KD, Oladipo and Adams either. Maybe Horford too.
he isnt in his mid thirties and the injuries last year were to his shoulder. Before that he was usually playing in around 65 games and i cant say for sure (and im not looking it up) but id bet a few of those were just rest games either during the year or at the end. He isnt a guy who never gets hurt but its not like he has averaged 40 games missed his whole career.
But if they're good enough to make the ECF in '16/17 doesn't that probably mean rose has a pretty good season? Then it would seem they would extend rose and fill out their bench with the cap space.
Probably, but even if Rose has a good season, why wouldn't you look to upgrade the team? Especially if you think the upgrade from Rose to Westbrook would get you over the hump.
Whether they sign Noah or not, I think the "attractiveness" of the Knicks next offseason will largely be based on KPs development. Does he *just* become a top 50 player or can he take a jump to become a top 25 player next season?
minds if they give Noah 4 yrs/$72M. Even when he was healthy last year he was routinely benched in favor of a Gasol/Gibson combo during crunch time (and this was when the Bulls were winning games). Add in the injury risk, and the fact that his game relies mostly on athleticism, and I just don't see it working out.
Centers everywhere are getting crazy money, but even with the higher cap, Noah is going to take a legitimate chunk of the Knicks cap for a little while and that contract is going to be very hard to move.
Who knows though... a few years ago he was one of the most valuable Cs in the league and was a fierce locker room leader. Maybe as he ages into his 30s he can regain his form and the deal could work out. Just seems like a wild gamble to me.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
Yes, Durant and Westbrook arent coming here. Doesnt mean you then resign yourself to bad deals. Make good deals. Wait the market out a little. Sign several Williams types on make-goods. Trade for a guy under contract who another team wants out of for cap room.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
Yes, Durant and Westbrook arent coming here. Doesnt mean you then resign yourself to bad deals. Make good deals. Wait the market out a little. Sign several Williams types on make-goods. Trade for a guy under contract who another team wants out of for cap room.
What Williams types? What trades? This is the NBA. Everyone who is not on a rookie deal or isn't a truly great player on a max deal is overpaid. The lesson from this ought to be that cap space is overrated and the best thing that Phil has done is not trade picks.
The problem with going 4 years for Noah is that KP's future is at the 5 and Melo should be playing the 4. That is the optimal lineup for this team. It's where the league is going and where the Knicks should be headed.
With that said, the team desperately needs competitiveness/ winning attitude and defense. Noah gives you that dynamic. He was DPOY and 4th in MVP in 2014.
Signing Eric Gordon or Courtney Lee for big money would be a disaster. Go bargain shopping for wings on short deals.
What Williams types? What trades? This is the NBA. Everyone who is not on a rookie deal or isn't a truly great player on a max deal is overpaid. The lesson from this ought to be that cap space is overrated and the best thing that Phil has done is not trade picks.
You dont target specific players. You see which player thought he was getting 15 per and only got offers for 8. Sign him to a 1+1 deal.
No one was talking about Williams coming here last year. Until he came.
it me or is Ish Smith a "steal" in this market for 16 million?
Maybe. We probably think he's better than he is because he lit the Knicks up. However, he has bounced around a ton. Put up good numbers with inefficient shooting last year in huge usage. If he's not in a situation where there is no one else around him who can dribble, is he all that useful?
The fact that he got the deal and when he took it tells me it is likely fair. He jumped on this deal. Where was guardless Philly to top it? Why not wait until other teams' first choices sign?
it me or is Ish Smith a "steal" in this market for 16 million?
Maybe. We probably think he's better than he is because he lit the Knicks up. However, he has bounced around a ton. Put up good numbers with inefficient shooting last year in huge usage. If he's not in a situation where there is no one else around him who can dribble, is he all that useful?
The fact that he got the deal and when he took it tells me it is likely fair. He jumped on this deal. Where was guardless Philly to top it? Why not wait until other teams' first choices sign?
If Austin Rivers is in line for 5 million then I'll take Ish Smith for the same rate any day of the week. I think most of BBI would be praising Phil if he signed Smith for that price. Maybe he was tired of moving around (he's been on 9 teams).
it is what it is--At least Noah won't be maxed out he's still being paid pretty fair value maybe even good value. It's not a stretch to hope his contract his movable over the next 2-3 years if the Knicks were so compelled.
Just because he's getting a lot of years doesn't necessarily mean the contract becomes an albatross. Noah is a worthy player this isn't some slob like Eddie Curry that has no business getting paid big bucks.
Wait and see...if it's 4...it's 4. Noah will be a fun guy to root for and just maybe the deal works out. No one plays the game harder and he is only 31.
IMO, it all comes down to whether you're inclined to be optimistic or pessimistic. If (big IF) Noah remains healthy and shows no lasting effects of his previous injuries, this contract is a very good one for the Knicks. If he continues to get injured, or is less effective following his past injuries, the contract is potentially damaging.
What I see is the Knicks pursuing a big whose skill set matches what they want to do, and what they need from their center in order to do so. Yes, the dollars are a concern, but as many have pointed out, that's the market. What's the alternative? Pursue a big whose skill set doesn't match the scheme? How is that any less of a risk? If anything, that would be even more of a risk, IMO, because in that case, no amount of health is going to allow that player to be productive in the way the Knicks envision. At least with Noah, you know you're getting the big the team wants and that he should be effective as long as he is healthy, even if he still does have some injury issues going forward.
Is it ideal? No, but there are no ideal scenarios available that could actually happen. That's not to say they should be making moves for the sake of making moves; rather, it's just that some calculated risk is necessary in this market and for this team. I think we're seeing what basically amounts to the new foundation and going forward, depth and prospects will be added with cap space and draft picks. If Hornacek is the right guy, the talent will be developed from within while this new foundation gives the team a much needed competitive boost and hopefully creates a winning culture for the next wave of youth to grow into.
in any even he's a better shooter than Ish. It's really not all that clear how Ish will when you try to make him part of a winning team with a functional, efficient offense.
if there was ever gonna be a guy the Knicks would lock down for "too" long--let it be Noah. The Knicks absolutely have to nurture and develop KP. Noah is a big step in the right direction.
I almost feel like it's worth the risk even if you told me Noah's arms would fall off after year 3. I tend to think leadership can be overstated at times but that's only if you have in spades and your team is filled with vets. KP is priority one. The Knicks desperately need a guy just like Noah.
in any even he's a better shooter than Ish. It's really not all that clear how Ish will when you try to make him part of a winning team with a functional, efficient offense.
He's the backup PG. Likely better than whomever our backup PG will be this year, and is backing up a better PG than whom we have.
the fact it isn't lower body injury doesn't scare me. He wasn't a great who's a great athlete to begin with he works hard puts himself in great position and has an endless motor. Knick fans will love him....oakleyesque
when I initially heard Noah to Knicks I rolled my eyes and said he's hurt.
I'll take the optimistic view point here. It's all I got. And I always loved the guy's game but the last impression you have of a player is the one that sticks. Shoulders heal....hopefully.
The starting five does sound intriguing assuming they can get a back court stopper in there That team could come together and forge an identity. Man if KP takes another step this could be a lot of fun. Everything comes with a risk.
that really the only long term contract that carries any risk here is Noah's and the guy isn't even getting paid the max. It's a risk to be sure...it almost looks like the guy is getting paid little over middle wage --which is crazy.
much for that report regarding Phil being unwilling to go long term and was negotiating the years with Noah and would move on to Biyombo if it became a sticking point.
it's wise to look at the % of cap space eaten up by the contract. Noah's deal is more like 10-12 million per based on the cap from year's past.
He's not making the max and the cap is through the roof. Just tell yourself it's all about the leadership as much as it is Noah's actual game. HE will help KP.
RE: If you're gonna tell me Jeremy Lin is worth 12m a year
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @WojVerticalNBA 23m23 minutes ago
Rival teams starting to take Dwyane Wade's free agency seriously, w/ GM's telling @TheVertical they've made multi-year offers to his reps.
just said the same thing. The NBA economics are insane now. 4-72 is barely over middle class.
It's still a risk but it's not the risk some are making it out to be. If anything Noah might even be a bargain, which is insane to process but kind of true.
Just stay healthy in year 1 and take it from there. No brutal career ending shit...if he misses a month that's fine he'd still be well worth it.
he's getting paid that because hopeless teams like the Nets have to overpay to get players. And unlike the Knicks, there is so little light at the end of the tunnel in NJ that they really arent hurt by overpaying for Lin for 3 years. Especially since he's not old/hurt.
Noah was shaky and hurt last year but was very solid 2 years ago. I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. Two year ago Noah was better than Lopez and it's not even close. I don't want to hear about PER and all that crap. You can run the offense through Noah as the passing big man.
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @WojVerticalNBA 23m23 minutes ago
Rival teams starting to take Dwyane Wade's free agency seriously, w/ GM's telling @TheVertical they've made multi-year offers to his reps.
I wonder if Melo called Phil and said hey dwade is gettable let's really go for it...
At this point why the fuck not?
RE: If you're gonna tell me Jeremy Lin is worth 12m a year
KnicksTweets @KnicksTweets 2m2 minutes ago
Gordon had arthroscopic surgery on both knees, tore labrum in left shoulder, and broke ring finger twice...yet 2 play 65 games in a season.
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KnicksTweets @KnicksTweets 40m40 minutes ago
With proper physical therapy Noah's shoulder injury will fully recover. Everyone should relax and embrace the pending signing.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
don't waste your time. If you had told everyone two months ago (or even two weeks ago) Noah was going to be the big "prize" these clowns would have laughed at you.
Noah was shaky and hurt last year but was very solid 2 years ago. I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. Two year ago Noah was better than Lopez and it's not even close. I don't want to hear about PER and all that crap. You can run the offense through Noah as the passing big man.
I'll take 2015 Noah and be happy.
20% of the cap for 7-9-1 with poor shooting isnt getting my dick hard. Assist numbers are nice. Im sure everyone will vouch for his defense. But the advanced stats reflect a massive fall off. PER down by 5. WS down by 6. BPM down. Down over longer term too. Though the advanced stats would justify the contract I think. If he produced that every year. But what are the chances he does? Guy is a declining player at 29 but turns it around at 31-34?
RE: RE: If you're gonna tell me Jeremy Lin is worth 12m a year
is the definition of a homer statement wow. You would be happy with 2015 Noah at 4 for 72? 4.3 points 8.8 boards 38% from the field, 49% from the line.
it's not a signing you see winning teams make. You can look at his stats and justify it (I was a little hasty to condemn it).
But what is he? He's not a starting guard on a contender. IMO he's probably a 4th guard on a contender. So resign a guy for that money if you're capped out. But winning teams dont invest free cap space into a Lin like that.
Cant knock the Nets though. No reason for them to go rebuild without a pick until 2019.
it's not a signing you see winning teams make. You can look at his stats and justify it (I was a little hasty to condemn it).
But what is he? He's not a starting guard on a contender. IMO he's probably a 4th guard on a contender. So resign a guy for that money if you're capped out. But winning teams dont invest free cap space into a Lin like that.
Cant knock the Nets though. No reason for them to go rebuild without a pick until 2019.
Your last comment is the issue. The Nets can't play for the lottery so Lin is a solid "be decent" player and may yet represent a chip towards adding picks.
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @WojVerticalNBA 23m23 minutes ago
Rival teams starting to take Dwyane Wade's free agency seriously, w/ GM's telling @TheVertical they've made multi-year offers to his reps.
I wonder if Melo called Phil and said hey dwade is gettable let's really go for it...
Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @WojVerticalNBA 23m23 minutes ago
Rival teams starting to take Dwyane Wade's free agency seriously, w/ GM's telling @TheVertical they've made multi-year offers to his reps.
I wonder if Melo called Phil and said hey dwade is gettable let's really go for it...
At this point why the fuck not?
How would we even afford that?
At the rumored contract for noah knicks have roughly 18-20 million in space left, could clear a little more if they had to by trading oquinn or renouncing galloway
1. He only started 2 games.
2. He only played 29 games.
3. He was never a fit for Hoiball.
4. He was hurt all year even when he did play.
This is a guy who will give you 8-10 points, 9-11 boards, 4-5 assists and good defense if he is healthy. Very vaulable piece.
Yes but djm said
"In comment 13017136 djm said:
Quote:
Noah was shaky and hurt last year but was very solid 2 years ago. I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. Two year ago Noah was better than Lopez and it's not even close. I don't want to hear about PER and all that crap. You can run the offense through Noah as the passing big man.
Your last comment is the issue. The Nets can't play for the lottery so Lin is a solid "be decent" player and may yet represent a chip towards adding picks.
Right. No reason not to put out a good product, maybe get luck on a contract and have a trade chip. Or be better than expected, sign a better class of UFAs next year or the year after. Im a big Brook Lopez believer, if he can stay healthy.
him i cant see how the knicks get involved. Especially since they would be crazy to offer anything more then 2 years. I mean im sure Melo is interested in him coming to NY, but i dont see it happening. I really think with MIA retaining Whiteside that the chances of Wade actually leaving is like 5%.
Alex Kennedy @AlexKennedyNBA 1m1 minute ago
Jeff Green met with the Clippers last night, and took calls from several teams. As I said last night, the Magic called to express interest.
1. He only started 2 games.
2. He only played 29 games.
3. He was never a fit for Hoiball.
4. He was hurt all year even when he did play.
This is a guy who will give you 8-10 points, 9-11 boards, 4-5 assists and good defense if he is healthy. Very vaulable piece.
Yes but djm said
"In comment 13017136 djm said:
Quote:
Noah was shaky and hurt last year but was very solid 2 years ago. I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. Two year ago Noah was better than Lopez and it's not even close. I don't want to hear about PER and all that crap. You can run the offense through Noah as the passing big man.
I'll take 2015 Noah and be happy."
2015 Noah at 4 years 72 is a truly AWFUL move.
I think he meant 2014-2015 Noah.
The Wade thing is pure negotiation, but the Knicks ought to
Alex Kennedy @AlexKennedyNBA 1m1 minute ago
Jeff Green met with the Clippers last night, and took calls from several teams. As I said last night, the Magic called to express interest.
Is the goal to have ever 4 player in the league? Ibaka, Gordon, and Green?
him i cant see how the knicks get involved. Especially since they would be crazy to offer anything more then 2 years. I mean im sure Melo is interested in him coming to NY, but i dont see it happening. I really think with MIA retaining Whiteside that the chances of Wade actually leaving is like 5%.
The problem for.miami is they can't add anyone else to their team if they resign wade, they had to use cap space to sign whiteside...
For Miami would almost be better just to move on from wade?
me too. I would have preferred adding him to our core (instead of doing the Rose deal) at that number and then using the remaining cap space on wings/shooters.
Again, stop looking at the insane contract in a vacuum and look at all the contracts being handed out. Mozgov got nearly the same deal. Noah's making upper middle class money.
get in because a) why not and b) fuck the Heat, drive up his price.
I agree. And if Wade takes the rest of our cap space, that's a good add. Yeah, the injury concerns and age. Dude can still ball. He's a winner, and people want to play with him. Not sure whether we can still max next offseason, but Melo, Noah, Wade, KP and Rose will tempt star free agents, especially older ones.
NBA players have a clear bias in that they dont hold age against superstars. It's a player blind spot.
that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Again, stop looking at the insane contract in a vacuum and look at all the contracts being handed out. Mozgov got nearly the same deal. Noah's making upper middle class money.
Again, stop looking at the money and start looking at the years. No one here is taking issue with the 18 million.
don't think anybody "against" Noah has a major issue with the AAV. It's the years. 2 years 36, even 2 years 38-40 would have been solid. 4 years is the concern so his play 2 seasons ago really doesn't mean much. I like Noah but with his style of play it's a legit concern.
Wade to a long term insane contract might as well take the money and throw it in the fireplace. Wade will mail it in when he leaves Miami. Even if he tries, he will break in half before too long. Wade has been one hang nail away from the glue factory for years now. I still can't believe he lasted this long but once he leaves Miami he will fall apart in my opinion. Think of that old beat up car that only drives for its owner. Once a new owner gets behind the wheel it's over for good.
Again, stop looking at the insane contract in a vacuum and look at all the contracts being handed out. Mozgov got nearly the same deal. Noah's making upper middle class money.
Again, stop looking at the money and start looking at the years. No one here is taking issue with the 18 million.
that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
if Wade went to MIL, but that is the kinda team he is going to have to go to if he wants to make 25 mill. If he is willing to come down to the 15 range then i think you might see some contenders get interested, although im not sure who. CLE doesnt have the space, Wade doesnt seem like a SA type move, OKC just got Oladipo, LAC dont have the spaced, TOR has Derozan, im not really sure who the other contenders would be. Teams like MIL or MINN do make some sense, but i just dont see wade going to those teams.
We need a defender at the two spot. I'd rather just start Holiday there than blow $10 million on Gordon, who's guaranteed to miss 20+ games per year. I'm not a huge fan of Courtney Lee, but he's a better fit.
that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
don't think anybody "against" Noah has a major issue with the AAV. It's the years. 2 years 36, even 2 years 38-40 would have been solid. 4 years is the concern so his play 2 seasons ago really doesn't mean much. I like Noah but with his style of play it's a legit concern.
All of this is completely accurate.
That said, in this market, you're not getting him for 2 years, and your alternatives are Dwight Howard and a max deal for Horford.
I hear you. 4 years stings but I am holding out (false) hope that it's 3 guaranteed 4th team option. If it isn't so be it. I get where the Knicks are coming from here as they need an identity and leadership which Noah helps provide. And if he's even breathing by year 4 we'd take it. Fingers crossed.
I don't think this is the same as the STAT move which some called just suggested as Stat was living in borrowed time with a much more serious injury history and he was getting the max for 5 years. Apples and oranges. Plus Noah is just a better player now than what Stat was after year one in NY, and he was overrated in year one.
Former New Orleans Pelicans guard Eric Gordon is "considering" signing with the Knicks in free agency, a source close to the situation told SNY.tv.
"He is considering it and it's all up to him," the source said.
The two sides are starting to discuss a possible deal, according to The Vertical's Adrian Wojnarowski, but the source indicated Gordon is being courted by "over half the league."
just my take. I know it's odd for someone to be on board with a Noah signing while killing a Wade signing but I just feel like Wade won't age well if he signs elsewhere. And there's no science or data to back up my claims at all. Just a hunch. Plus, we have enough alpha type scorers here and KP needs touches.
more then 2 years id be fine with it. Might as well just go all in right now that we can have the basketball gods finally shine down on us and all of those guys play 70 games next year. I mean wade isnt the best fit since we would have 3 ball dominant players, but i mean im taking him over Eric Gordon.
I hear you. 4 years stings but I am holding out (false) hope that it's 3 guaranteed 4th team option. If it isn't so be it. I get where the Knicks are coming from here as they need an identity and leadership which Noah helps provide. And if he's even breathing by year 4 we'd take it. Fingers crossed.
I don't think this is the same as the STAT move which some called just suggested as Stat was living in borrowed time with a much more serious injury history and he was getting the max for 5 years. Apples and oranges. Plus Noah is just a better player now than what Stat was after year one in NY, and he was overrated in year one.
I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
Stop it. No he isnt...haha
He's not yet but $120M is warranted for a 23 year old who put up 17 and 15
that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
I dont think he's quite that good, but absolutely max worthy. Top 25 for sure, maybe high teens. I'd have to start making a list.
that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
I dont think he's quite that good, but absolutely max worthy. Top 25 for sure, maybe high teens. I'd have to start making a list.
My point is, I wouldn't use his contract as an example of "look at the salaries!!!". For my money he's one of the very few legit "max" players.
I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
If last year or the last 2 years were viewed as an outlier, Noah would be getting max $$. 2013-14 Noah >>> Batum.
that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
Stop it. No he isnt...haha
Age 22 season just led the league in rebounding (15 per) while scoring 16 per. He may not be top 10 yet but closer to top 10 than "ha ha" and worth max regardless of the the cap. Just not a good example of guys getting "silly" money. Mozgov is that, even Batum.
They look pretty deep now. Meeks was out all year pretty much. They're essentially adding Smith, Meeks and Ellenson to last year's squad. Plus Johnson, Drummond, KCP and Harris are all still young enough to make big strides.
I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
If last year or the last 2 years were viewed as an outlier, Noah would be getting max $$. 2013-14 Noah >>> Batum.
If he does fully recover from that shoulder, that injury could be a blessing in disguise. His knees and legs got a much needed rest (8 months?)
I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
If last year or the last 2 years were viewed as an outlier, Noah would be getting max $$. 2013-14 Noah >>> Batum.
Deej,
He was horrible this past season. If the Knicks (or anyone else) felt 2015-2016 Noah is what he will be going forward he wouldn't have sniffed 72 million.
I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
If last year or the last 2 years were viewed as an outlier, Noah would be getting max $$. 2013-14 Noah >>> Batum.
Deej,
He was horrible this past season. If the Knicks (or anyone else) felt 2015-2016 Noah is what he will be going forward he wouldn't have sniffed 72 million.
Right. Im saying his value was set somewhere between "you're not the bad, 25 game player you were last year" and "you're not the 11 WS player you were 3 years ago". An obvious point I think.
The point on Wade is, if Knicks are signing Noah, they are in NOW mode. What's the point to only half do it?
Because they'd have to dump KOQ along with KP to fit him in.
What, do you think Miami hasn't tried to convince him to sign for around $20-22M per year? Why do you think he's considering elsewhere in the first place?
to guys like dzrummond are a mistake. I am not going to pinpoint a dollar amount for him because all these contracts are ridiculous, but I dont see a guy who is good enough to take a franchise to the championship. He is an EXCELLENT center who is an outstanding rebounder. However, he cant shoot, make free throws, handle the ball. His defense around the rim is very good, but he is also very foul prone when having to guard perimeter defenders.
I understand he will be 23, and that he does some wonderful things. But how much better can you build a team around him when he makes max money?
but ill still take him over Eric Gordon. The idea behind Gordon is we will say with Melo/Rose/KP we just need a guy who can hit open looks. Do we not think Wade can do that? Plus other then shooting he is better (and healthier as absurd as that is) at literally everything else on the court.
They look pretty deep now. Meeks was out all year pretty much. They're essentially adding Smith, Meeks and Ellenson to last year's squad. Plus Johnson, Drummond, KCP and Harris are all still young enough to make big strides.
Agree. Like Johnson too. Problem is that the team lacks the hardest thing to get -- a top 5-10 player at the 1-2-3. I like Drummond as a 2nd best player on a great team, Jackson as a 3rd best player, Harris, Stanimal, Morris, KCP are really nice 4th-7th pieces -- very good young/prime depth. That team needs a LeBron/Durant. Who doesnt. But to win a title, they need those pieces.
the problem with that thinking is that by that definition there is only like 6 max players in the league. Thats just never how this is going to work, we are always going to have underserving players getting max deals, its just a matter of how undeserving are there. Drummond is just barely underserving where as a Bradley Beal, Batum, Parsons, etc.. are extremely underserving.
They look pretty deep now. Meeks was out all year pretty much. They're essentially adding Smith, Meeks and Ellenson to last year's squad. Plus Johnson, Drummond, KCP and Harris are all still young enough to make big strides.
Agree. Like Johnson too. Problem is that the team lacks the hardest thing to get -- a top 5-10 player at the 1-2-3. I like Drummond as a 2nd best player on a great team, Jackson as a 3rd best player, Harris, Stanimal, Morris, KCP are really nice 4th-7th pieces -- very good young/prime depth. That team needs a LeBron/Durant. Who doesnt. But to win a title, they need those pieces.
And by giving out big money to the likes of drummond, harris, Jackson, will prevent them from doing that. They will have to give out big money for Pope to eventually.
RE: I get that Wade isnt the shooter we would want...
but ill still take him over Eric Gordon. The idea behind Gordon is we will say with Melo/Rose/KP we just need a guy who can hit open looks. Do we not think Wade can do that? Plus other then shooting he is better (and healthier as absurd as that is) at literally everything else on the court.
This depends on what open look you're taking about. He is absolutely not a 3 pt shooter and there's no argument to be made for it. His prime best was 31%. He's now down to 28%, and he shot a miserable 15% last year.
The point on Wade is, if Knicks are signing Noah, they are in NOW mode. What's the point to only half do it?
Because they'd have to dump KOQ along with KP to fit him in.
What, do you think Miami hasn't tried to convince him to sign for around $20-22M per year? Why do you think he's considering elsewhere in the first place?
The issue for.miami is they can't just offer him 20 million and fill out their roster...
They had to use cap space to sign whiteside so if they give wade what he wants they are capped out...
That is why he is looking elsewhere, Riley trying to get him to take much less
to guys like dzrummond are a mistake. I am not going to pinpoint a dollar amount for him because all these contracts are ridiculous, but I dont see a guy who is good enough to take a franchise to the championship. He is an EXCELLENT center who is an outstanding rebounder. However, he cant shoot, make free throws, handle the ball. His defense around the rim is very good, but he is also very foul prone when having to guard perimeter defenders.
I understand he will be 23, and that he does some wonderful things. But how much better can you build a team around him when he makes max money?
The thing is his max this year will be about 22% of the cap next year which is pretty good. This is the ideal year to give your own RFA the max.
I was telling people last year that Drummond will be the best center in the league within 3 years. He hasn't done anything to change that.
But I guess towns did. Still, I think he has top 10 potential.
If the Knicks got Wade, they'd at least have one guy
the problem with that thinking is that by that definition there is only like 6 max players in the league. Thats just never how this is going to work, we are always going to have underserving players getting max deals, its just a matter of how undeserving are there. Drummond is just barely underserving where as a Bradley Beal, Batum, Parsons, etc.. are extremely underserving.
And thats why I think there needs to be a lockout soon. The salary cap is way too high, people exceed it too easily. I dont like where the NBA is heading.
Ric Bucher @RicBucher 59s59 seconds ago
Back story to NYK interest in @TheofficialEG10: played & had great chemistry w/@drose on an AAU team coached by Reggie Rose.
RE: If the Knicks got Wade, they'd at least have one guy
to guys like dzrummond are a mistake. I am not going to pinpoint a dollar amount for him because all these contracts are ridiculous, but I dont see a guy who is good enough to take a franchise to the championship. He is an EXCELLENT center who is an outstanding rebounder. However, he cant shoot, make free throws, handle the ball. His defense around the rim is very good, but he is also very foul prone when having to guard perimeter defenders.
I understand he will be 23, and that he does some wonderful things. But how much better can you build a team around him when he makes max money?
guys who "aren't enough to take a franchise to the championship" get maxed all the time. Chris Bosh has been maxed 3 times. You win in the modern NBA by getting 2-3 guys like that on your team at the same time.
to guys like dzrummond are a mistake. I am not going to pinpoint a dollar amount for him because all these contracts are ridiculous, but I dont see a guy who is good enough to take a franchise to the championship. He is an EXCELLENT center who is an outstanding rebounder. However, he cant shoot, make free throws, handle the ball. His defense around the rim is very good, but he is also very foul prone when having to guard perimeter defenders.
I understand he will be 23, and that he does some wonderful things. But how much better can you build a team around him when he makes max money?
Well I think he's good enough to be the 2nd best player on a championship, and has the potential to be the best center in the league. That's absolutely max worth. A view that there are only like 5-10 max players is wrong.
Also, your view of max over simplifies it. There are 3 max contracts. Saying Drummond isnt worthy of the max without that context makes little sense. A player his experience level can get 25% of the cap. A 10 year vet can get 35% of the cap. The difference is a deal starting at 23.25 million vs. one starting at 32.5 million. Drummond is eligible for 23.25 million. Next year his contract will rise to 25 million, which will be 22-23% of the cap. Or a little more than we're giving Noah this year (% of cap wise).
Cavs won with Thompson making 20% of the cap. Drummond >> Thompson. And Thompson is good. Love made even more as a % of the cap, and they still won.
the problem with that thinking is that by that definition there is only like 6 max players in the league. Thats just never how this is going to work, we are always going to have underserving players getting max deals, its just a matter of how undeserving are there. Drummond is just barely underserving where as a Bradley Beal, Batum, Parsons, etc.. are extremely underserving.
And thats why I think there needs to be a lockout soon. The salary cap is way too high, people exceed it too easily. I dont like where the NBA is heading.
players are getting a much lower % of revenue compared to previous CBAs. If anything, the cap is too low. The problem is the ridiculous rules that govern the cap, max salaries, trades, etc.
RE: RE: RE: Really liking how Detroit is shaping up
And by giving out big money to the likes of drummond, harris, Jackson, will prevent them from doing that. They will have to give out big money for Pope to eventually.
Drummond, Harris, and Jackson are on very good contracts. They wont prevent anything. Those contracts are lures for UFAs.
I thought they put an end to the excess cap spending
players are getting a much lower % of revenue compared to previous CBAs. If anything, the cap is too low. The problem is the ridiculous rules that govern the cap, max salaries, trades, etc.
Right. Salaries got high because the cost of TV rights exploded. It's not like it's runaway inflation that is hurting the owners.
If anything it sounds like the players could strike when the CBA expires.
I understand why Drummond is getting the max, especially when you look at players that are getting similar money who arent as good. However, Drummond has a lot of flaws for a guy who is suppose to be near best or best at his position.
I would put roughly on 10-12 guys in the range of who should be getting the max. And none of them would be a center. KAT maybe the only one who would get it based he can actually hit a jumper. But what can you do. Lot of money being thrown around.
This is why you need to keep cheap depth like Grant. Because in a vacuum 7.5*4 for DJ isnt terrible. But it is cap clogging, especially if he regresses. You give out enough 7.5 million multi year deals for JAGs and what do you have.
On this market if both were UFAs, Lopez and Grant are prob getting a combined 25-30 million per on long term deals.
was doing up until the Harris trade. But I don't like this and I don't like the Ibaka deal. Without knowing anything about what's going on down there, I would guess they have an impatient owner.
Noah was shaky and hurt last year but was very solid 2 years ago. I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. Two year ago Noah was better than Lopez and it's not even close. I don't want to hear about PER and all that crap. You can run the offense through Noah as the passing big man.
I'll take 2015 Noah and be happy.
20% of the cap for 7-9-1 with poor shooting isnt getting my dick hard.
Are there stats that DO get your dick hard? Or just the thought of Jerian Grant?
Are there stats that DO get your dick hard? Or just the thought of Jerian Grant?
I've already said too much.
Im actually not in love with Grant. There were guys on the board I preferred over him (particularly Justin Anderson and RHJ). But I thought he was promising. And I think teams are well served by giving their #1 picks 3-5 years to percolate.
Are there stats that DO get your dick hard? Or just the thought of Jerian Grant?
I've already said too much.
Im actually not in love with Grant. There were guys on the board I preferred over him (particularly Justin Anderson and RHJ). But I thought he was promising. And I think teams are well served by giving their #1 picks 3-5 years to percolate.
I'm just busting your chops. I do agree with your take on the value of cheap depth. I disagree with you on Grant's ceiling, but in a market where NYK are looking at giving real dollars to someone like Austin Rivers (who is the definition of JAG, IMO), they'd be better served by having a homegrown cheap option there instead.
So think about that. The whole build around Melo thing could have us paying a 34 year old banged up Noah 20 million when Melo has moved on.
Cant we partially guarantee it and promise to make it up to him if we cut him. Give him a studio job. Here's 6 million. You're now running our French language programming.
So think about that. The whole build around Melo thing could have us paying a 34 year old banged up Noah 20 million when Melo has moved on.
Cant we partially guarantee it and promise to make it up to him if we cut him. Give him a studio job. Here's 6 million. You're now running our French language programming.
Perhaps more importantly, it also runs past Phil's deal.
Win now baby!
Well, this is what happens when you want to "win now" to become
Actually, the nature of this sudden emphasis on "build around Melo" reeks of Jimmy D putting the pressure on. In Phil's introductory press conference, he talked about building a lasting foundation. This is not that. Why the reverse course?
Knicks not even scoring a meeting with KD, as it appears, with Melo, Rose and one of the most promising young players in the league (#2 or #3 over the last 4 drafts combined, w/ Towns and Simmons). And y'all are writing us in for 57 wins.
at least the Knicks have a lot of picks coming to them the next couple of years. They can restock the roster with cheaper guys soon enough. I hated losing Grant too but this time next year we will likely have a young player or two for the back court.
I was worried when I heard him talking a few weeks back about the shitty Eastern Conference and "why not us?" as potential challengers to Cleveland. The Rose trade was no biggie, but if we're looking at four years guaranteed for Noah, topped off with stiffs like Gordon and Rivers - YIKES.
Al Jefferson to sign a three-year $30 mln with the Pacers:
Damn Larry making moves. No big player but they've added Teague, Thad young and big al so far. I like Ellis and Big Al off the bench, good scoring punch. Looking like a top 4 seed.
at least the Knicks have a lot of picks coming to them the next couple of years. They can restock the roster with cheaper guys soon enough. I hated losing Grant too but this time next year we will likely have a young player or two for the back court.
Why should I have any confidence that these picks will be retained if they traded away Grant after one season to land a fading star on an expiring contract?
No solace from still owning the picks. I think there was a commitment to build appropriately, and I think it went out the window. Maybe Melo and Dolan griped. I dont know. We went from asset collection to taking big swinging risks, and the timing of the switch in strategy makes no sense.
didnt go for more of a defensive big. I get that Jefferson will give the second unit scoring, but if they dont resign mahini there interior D is going to be a major issue. Although they seem to be transitioning to more of an offensive team with a backcourt of teague/ellis i guess they have to.
Knicks not even scoring a meeting with KD, as it appears, with Melo, Rose and one of the most promising young players in the league (#2 or #3 over the last 4 drafts combined, w/ Towns and Simmons). And y'all are writing us in for 57 wins.
Since Phil had never operated in a front office capacity before, I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was brought here by Dolan to be a big game hunter (and to "change the culture" and all that BS). But if Phil can't even get a sit-down with some of the these guys (KD, Horford), what's the point? KD is taking meetings a 45 min helicopter ride from MSG, and we're not even on his radar.
from the warriors as a backup 2?....i like him a lot very under the radar player low risk high reward comes on the cheap. Anybody know more about this guy?
didnt go for more of a defensive big. I get that Jefferson will give the second unit scoring, but if they dont resign mahini there interior D is going to be a major issue. Although they seem to be transitioning to more of an offensive team with a backcourt of teague/ellis i guess they have to.
Well I think they are transitioning Turner to the 5, no? He's gonna be a big time shot blocker. Looks like they want to be a pretty fast paced team. Teague, young, PG, and Turner are fast movers.
in this market 3 for 30 is a fantastic deal. Watch and see what some true turds get vs. a proven low post performer like Jefferson. People on here would be tonguing Phil's balls if we had the Pacers roster and then got Jefferson for this. Bird must be quite a sweet talker.
from the warriors as a backup 2?....i like him a lot very under the radar player low risk high reward comes on the cheap. Anybody know more about this guy?
Doesn't really bring anything that Holiday, Gallo can Thomas can't already provide.
hes a solid 3 point shooter his per 36 number look nice. He was buried on the warriors. for 2-3 mil or even cheaper he would be a nice option to fill out the roster. I would also prefer thomas but gallo over clark is a tough one for me to decide on
you need to be a lot more concerned about a knee then a shoulder. And to be fair we probably did get a discount. If Noah plays 70 games last year and was close to his career norms then he is getting mroe then 18 mill in this market.
but i really do hate when someone references per 36 numbers for someone who played 8 minutes a game. No offense Tuckrule.
I understand. I personally don't like the per 36 either i just don't have much to go off of. Your def right, playing extended minutes changes a lot. I just feel his upside may be higher than gallo and i believe there the same age or a 1 year difference
Have young, mahimi, and Jefferson to take minutes away from turner? Not sure how smart that is.
Mahimi is a FA and it doesn't sound like this will take away minutes from Turner at all. Nate McMillen was going NUTS over how much he loves Turner. Said he's a future all-star, clone of Aldridge etc
Have young, mahimi, and Jefferson to take minutes away from turner? Not sure how smart that is.
Mahimi is a FA and it doesn't sound like this will take away minutes from Turner at all. Nate McMillen was going NUTS over how much he loves Turner. Said he's a future all-star, clone of Aldridge etc
Ok that makes sense then. I didnt know Mahimi was a FA. I think Jefferson is more of a role player now. Good offensive player, not so much defensive player.
Turner and Young is an extremely atheltic frontcourt. Turner had some monstrous games last year, I would have hate to see him lose time due to logjam. He just has to stay out of foul trouble.
Have young, mahimi, and Jefferson to take minutes away from turner? Not sure how smart that is.
Young is their starting PF, Turner their C. Jefferson back up big. Mahimi is a FA but you can raise give Turner 30 minutes a game and have plenty of time for the other guys.
that he does to these guys, but Chandler Parsons is fucking amazing at Free Agency. Whatever it is he's selling, these players buy it. I know Dwight absolutely loves him, crazy how that's enough to get him to Portland.
2017 is a big year for James Harden. Is he gonna remain a borderline joke or redeem himself?
2017 is a big year for James Harden. Is he gonna remain a borderline joke or redeem himself?
I think he will bounce back. Obviously, defensively will never be a strong suit. However, I dont like D'Antoni as the man for him. I think with Dwight gone, he will mature and take more of a leadership role.
He does have the potential to put up some insane offensive numbers though.
of negatives, but the man comes to play in the playoffs and always has. This last year was rough and the Harden/Howard combo never quite clicked the way it could've, but I appreciate Dwight's time in Houston. The Game 6 win against the Clips last year is something I'll never forget, Dwight's D was easily the main reason why the Rockets took the LAC out. 1st ballot HOFer who gets disrespected a little too often because people just don't like him.
of negatives, but the man comes to play in the playoffs and always has. This last year was rough and the Harden/Howard combo never quite clicked the way it could've, but I appreciate Dwight's time in Houston. The Game 6 win against the Clips last year is something I'll never forget, Dwight's D was easily the main reason why the Rockets took the LAC out. 1st ballot HOFer who gets disrespected a little too often because people just don't like him.
Totally agree. I've been arguing with friends of mine who just fucking hate him all week... they completely discredit him as a player. He can absolutely be a dick and a babydude but the talent is undeniable.
RE: RE: Does Hahn have any idea what he's talking about?
He also said the Knicks would get a meeting with Durant. We see how that went.
Does Phil Jackson have a clue how to build a team?
I'd have to say yes. Phil has more championship rings than Hahn has correct news. Idk why you are getting smart with me. It was a serious question. I've followed Hahn on Twitter for years & I don't remember him ever breaking a story.
at least the Knicks have a lot of picks coming to them the next couple of years. They can restock the roster with cheaper guys soon enough. I hated losing Grant too but this time next year we will likely have a young player or two for the back court.
Why should I have any confidence that these picks will be retained if they traded away Grant after one season to land a fading star on an expiring contract?
No solace from still owning the picks. I think there was a commitment to build appropriately, and I think it went out the window. Maybe Melo and Dolan griped. I dont know. We went from asset collection to taking big swinging risks, and the timing of the switch in strategy makes no sense.
Don't live in fear. THe Knicks are operating more responsibly and have a better future than we've grown accustomed to. Ok they traded Grant. That doesn't mean they go balls to the wall and live in the now while mortgaging the future at every chance. I know we are all scarred by my god man...
Straight up, that's nothing short of pathetic. The core 4 that BBI is getting erect over combined to shoot easily below 50% near the rim. Obviously you can blame injuries and KP being a rookie, but this is something to keep an eye on. KP's poor FG% near the rim is by far my biggest concern with his long term prospects. Noah has no ups anymore, his inability to convert near the basket is going to make playing PnR D against the Knicks/Rose easy. Just double the ball-handler and dare Noah to finish.
Straight up, that's nothing short of pathetic. The core 4 that BBI is getting erect over combined to shoot easily below 50% near the rim. Obviously you can blame injuries and KP being a rookie, but this is something to keep an eye on. KP's poor FG% near the rim is by far my biggest concern with his long term prospects. Noah has no ups anymore, his inability to convert near the basket is going to make playing PnR D against the Knicks/Rose easy. Just double the ball-handler and dare Noah to finish.
Noah will burn you by passing it if you leave him alone. Plus he had 2 bad injuries last year, throw all his stats out the book.
And also will we have room to keep Rose, and add another Max? Or let Rose walk and sign 2 Max players? Do we have room for that next offseason?
Thank you experts.
No. I will go up by about $20 million, or ~21-22%. Then the year after it will be reduced. Next year's cap is a one off thing. Not totally sure why but I assume the NBA is getting a balloon payment under one of its media rights deals.
RE: RE: RE: Does Hahn have any idea what he's talking about?
He also said the Knicks would get a meeting with Durant. We see how that went.
Does Phil Jackson have a clue how to build a team?
I'd have to say yes. Phil has more championship rings than Hahn has correct news. Idk why you are getting smart with me. It was a serious question. I've followed Hahn on Twitter for years & I don't remember him ever breaking a story.
Not getting smart with you. My question was serious. Jackson won his rings with 2 great GMs (Rod Thorn and Jerry West)building the teams giving him loaded rosters. He never had to buy the groceries.
the fans that are erect over the knicks big 4. Seems like everyone knows this isnt a championship contender right now. But the horror if we show any positivity it means we think the knicks are bestest team in all the land....
I really dont see how turner fits. He isnt a bad player, but he is an avg defender and shooter at best. Unless he is coming for like 5-7 mill less then i think he gets then i dont want him.
KP's inside scoring efficiency will flat line. He's refining moves. And presumably getting stronger. If you go back to last year he had an awful lot of shots that looked funky, obviously because he couldnt muscle through a defender. If he puts on some weight, he'll get better inside shots off.
at least the Knicks have a lot of picks coming to them the next couple of years. They can restock the roster with cheaper guys soon enough. I hated losing Grant too but this time next year we will likely have a young player or two for the back court.
Why should I have any confidence that these picks will be retained if they traded away Grant after one season to land a fading star on an expiring contract?
No solace from still owning the picks. I think there was a commitment to build appropriately, and I think it went out the window. Maybe Melo and Dolan griped. I dont know. We went from asset collection to taking big swinging risks, and the timing of the switch in strategy makes no sense.
Don't live in fear. THe Knicks are operating more responsibly and have a better future than we've grown accustomed to. Ok they traded Grant. That doesn't mean they go balls to the wall and live in the now while mortgaging the future at every chance. I know we are all scarred by my god man...
No, I think if Noah is really guaranteed 4 years, we now have two pieces of evidence of a win now mentality notwithstanding the long term implications of the move. I'll flip the script on you. Why should I trust the Knicks?
KP's inside scoring efficiency will flat line. He's refining moves. And presumably getting stronger. If you go back to last year he had an awful lot of shots that looked funky, obviously because he couldnt muscle through a defender. If he puts on some weight, he'll get better inside shots off.
The other thing is that everyone's efficiency should improve as the offensive talent improves. And obviously the 3 vets there had injury issues last year.
I don't know...I guess I just choose to remain hopeful. Look if they were making laughably bad moves i'd be all over them too but Noah is a very good player. He's 31 not 38 and he's coming off a shoulder injury that has been fixed. It's not crazy to cautiously hope that Noah can rebound and play 75% of the games over the next few years.
A writer on WFAN nailed the Noah move. He made good points notably that fans get too invested in what happened with a player's past and assume or believe that these same things will continue to happen in the future. It rarely happens that way. Noah got hurt. It doesn't mean he gets hurt again and misses half the games over the next 3-4 years. The writer went on to say that Noah is a pro that has the respect of everyone in the NBA. No one prepares harder.
More than likely the truth falls somewhere in the middle. He will likely get hurt again and likely miss games. But to sit here and proclaim with certainty that Noah will be an injured disaster here is a stretch.
And here's another thing, maybe Noah is a shell of himself by year 4. And maybe the Knicks can still overcome that. He's the only long term deal on the books right now next to Melo. Teams can overcome a bad deal and the Knicks have resources to do just that and we may all look back and say despite the bad ending the contract was still worth it.
Or you could just convince yourself that the Knicks of 2005 are back and will only get worse. I disagree.
Noah is not even making close to max money. Ok 4 years. Try and get past that. The guy is being paid like an average center. Adjusting for inflation and cap he's basically getting Robin Lopez money!
Arc you said it's a terrible deal but this is not a terrible deal. It's a bit long, but it's far from an overpay, assuming these are the numbers.
Dare I say Noah might be a bargain. And he might stay healthy.
a lot here think this could be the 2nd team. I don't need to dig.
Think or hope? And does it really matteR? It's like some of you hate when fans get on board with a move. Sorry...just trying to keep my head above water here and cautiously hope for the best. Get on board or get off.
Ill say it again. This Noah deal isn't even in the same ballpark with Knicks moves of the past that blew up. For starters, Noah plays D. Second, It's not even a max deal. And lastly, they didnt' trade shit for the guy and they have cap room leftover today and next year.
This isn't even close to the Stat deal and most fans were like ehh fuck it, his knee will explode soon but the KNicks had to make a move. This isn't even close.
is everything this Knicks locker room needs. I know that this can be overstated but not in this case.
It's all about KP's development. Noah helps the cause.
Pray he works out. Every move comes with a risk. This one is no different.
I still believe the KNicks haven't deviated from the plan of accruing assets and long term building even if they did deal away grant and sign a win now player. They still have a good future as far as economics and picks go. And now they might actually field a team that can win 46-52 games. Who knows.
Noah is not even making close to max money. Ok 4 years. Try and get past that. The guy is being paid like an average center. Adjusting for inflation and cap he's basically getting Robin Lopez money!
Arc you said it's a terrible deal but this is not a terrible deal. It's a bit long, but it's far from an overpay, assuming these are the numbers.
Dare I say Noah might be a bargain. And he might stay healthy.
I don't mind the player I just hate the term. 4 years is too much for a dude who may be breaking down and plays the way he does. I just don't see this ending well.
rarely do end well. But if Noah can help change the culture here it will be well worth it.
I've already made peace with the move and I have accepted or allowed that Noah will suck ass in year 4. I can handle that as long as he holds down the center position in somewhat typical Noah fashion. And I believe he will.
that just about every move has many panicking and thinking worst case scenario. A guy like Dwight Howard is linked to Portland and no one on this thread says Portland is nuts. If Howard was linked here 50% of the posters here would be blasting the KNicks for even thinking that Howard can help. OK Portland has a better team, that shouldn't sway the opinions that much. The Knicks need to get better. The best way to cultivate KP's game is to win and immerse KP in a winning and successful culture. Noah helps toward that goal and just because he got hurt last year doesn't mean he gets hurt this year.
Lopez used to get hurt too. Now Knicks fans are crying themselves to sleep because we lost this end all be all bargain at center. Noah is making essentially the same money and is a flat out better player, granted he's older.
Knicks with Noah and any of the rumored 2 guard options are NOT in the mix for #2 team in the East unless Rose suddenly is MVP caliber Rose again and/or KP is a top 20 NBA player this upcoming season. Let's be realistic here.
I don't know...I guess I just choose to remain hopeful. Look if they were making laughably bad moves i'd be all over them too but Noah is a very good player. He's 31 not 38 and he's coming off a shoulder injury that has been fixed. It's not crazy to cautiously hope that Noah can rebound and play 75% of the games over the next few years.
A writer on WFAN nailed the Noah move. He made good points notably that fans get too invested in what happened with a player's past and assume or believe that these same things will continue to happen in the future. It rarely happens that way. Noah got hurt. It doesn't mean he gets hurt again and misses half the games over the next 3-4 years. The writer went on to say that Noah is a pro that has the respect of everyone in the NBA. No one prepares harder.
More than likely the truth falls somewhere in the middle. He will likely get hurt again and likely miss games. But to sit here and proclaim with certainty that Noah will be an injured disaster here is a stretch.
And here's another thing, maybe Noah is a shell of himself by year 4. And maybe the Knicks can still overcome that. He's the only long term deal on the books right now next to Melo. Teams can overcome a bad deal and the Knicks have resources to do just that and we may all look back and say despite the bad ending the contract was still worth it.
Or you could just convince yourself that the Knicks of 2005 are back and will only get worse. I disagree.
As one of our greatest 21st century presidents said, fool me, once shame on you, fool me -- you cant get fooled again.
Knicks with Noah and any of the rumored 2 guard options are NOT in the mix for #2 team in the East unless Rose suddenly is MVP caliber Rose again and/or KP is a top 20 NBA player this upcoming season. Let's be realistic here.
After this near 20 yr stretch of disaster, I'd be happy with a homecourt advantage playoff series. Let's get to "not shitty and getting better".
Austin Green @LosCrossovers 1m1 minute ago
Austin Green Retweeted Stefan Bondy
Willy to NYK is official. Special offensive player, defense/athleticism will be problems. He needs a good mentor
I won't go betting my life on the Knicks but I don't have to.
I choose to remain hopeful that this current team wins some games, KP continues his growth into an elite player, the Knicks do well in next year's draft and bring in the right FA next year and beyond. I don't think that's an unrealistic hope.
The Knicks won 54 games with less talent than this one. The key to me is Noah and Melo. Rose doesn't have to be awesome just break down the defense and play close to 70 games. He did that last year. If KP plays like he did first 3 months last year this team can ball. I have no doubt.
Sports are supposed to be a distraction. The one team I love that hasn't delivered a title is the Knicks and yet I still refuse to look at things half emtpy here. We all had to take tha approach throughout the 2000s because there was absolutely NOTHING to look forward to. Rarely did we have a draft pick awaiting us and if we did it was swapped out for a shittier pick. We NEVER had cap space and we NEVER had a young player like KP.
Things are looking up. I firmly believe that. If the Knicks fuck us again so be it. I see better things on the horizon.
Then again I thought (hoped) Coughlin would save his job last year.
despite what may look like angry retorts to many posts I do value what you guys say. It may not look that way but I respect and appreciate everyone's take on these threads. Even the extreme ones that seem a little ridiculous. Great discussion and I admit many of you know a lot more about the game and its players than I do.
You've been the voice of reason. I've agreed with almost everything you said. Glass half full baby. Championship!
And I'm ecstatic that Noah will be here to teach our two young guys how to do it right. He's going to be an amazing role model. At worse, when Noahs contract expires, he at least gave our young guys a solid foundation on how to be a winner, for the next 10-12 years. That's invaluable, in unto itself.
Injuries not withstanding, I'm hopeful, excited, and looking forward to some great baling again at the garden.
Knicks with Noah and any of the rumored 2 guard options are NOT in the mix for #2 team in the East unless Rose suddenly is MVP caliber Rose again and/or KP is a top 20 NBA player this upcoming season. Let's be realistic here.
Why are you speaking so definitively? Minus injuries the Knicks can't compete for the #2 seed with the likes of the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, etc?
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But notthing about the East suggests we're not in the mix for a top seed even a #2 seed.
Knicks with Noah and any of the rumored 2 guard options are NOT in the mix for #2 team in the East unless Rose suddenly is MVP caliber Rose again and/or KP is a top 20 NBA player this upcoming season. Let's be realistic here.
Why are you speaking so definitively? Minus injuries the Knicks can't compete for the #2 seed with the likes of the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, etc?
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But notthing about the East suggests we're not in the mix for a top seed even a #2 seed.
Why? Because 12 teams finished ahead of the Knicks last year. The 2 seed won 56 games. The Knicks barring Rose being amazing are not going to jump 11 teams and win 22ish more games sorry. Based on what improvement? Lopez and Noah is a wash. So Derrick Rose and say Evan Turner = the Knicks 2nd best team in the east? You realize they have something like 7 total players under contract right?
Knicks with Noah and any of the rumored 2 guard options are NOT in the mix for #2 team in the East unless Rose suddenly is MVP caliber Rose again and/or KP is a top 20 NBA player this upcoming season. Let's be realistic here.
Why are you speaking so definitively? Minus injuries the Knicks can't compete for the #2 seed with the likes of the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, etc?
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But notthing about the East suggests we're not in the mix for a top seed even a #2 seed.
The raptors won 56 games last year. I think we may be underselling how hard that is to do just to give ourselves some hope here.
having these cagey, past all-star veterans, with playoff experience, will only accelerate our young guys growth, as opposed to surrounding them with mediocre players, with out that experience. Imv
Adrian Wojnarowski @WojVerticalNBA 1m1 minute ago
Free agent Chandler Parsons is nearing agreement on a four-year, $94M max deal with the Memphis Grizzlies, league sources tell @TheVertical.
Knicks are bypassing "meh", and "mediocre" and "average" straight to "elite NBA team" with the addition of Noah and one of the available 2 guards? That's not being a pessimist. That's being realistic. If they win 9 more games next year.. that only puts them 15 winsout of the 2 seed... 15
Adrian Wojnarowski @WojVerticalNBA 1m1 minute ago
Free agent Chandler Parsons is nearing agreement on a four-year, $94M max deal with the Memphis Grizzlies, league sources tell @TheVertical.
Mike Loyko @NEPD_Loyko 22s22 seconds ago
Celtics own Grizzlies unprotected 1st round pick in likely 2019. If this risky Parsons deal goes bad it will be good for Boston
Why? Because 12 teams finished ahead of the Knicks last year. The 2 seed won 56 games. The Knicks barring Rose being amazing are not going to jump 11 teams and win 22ish more games sorry. Based on what improvement? Lopez and Noah is a wash. So Derrick Rose and say Evan Turner = the Knicks 2nd best team in the east? You realize they have something like 7 total players under contract right?
I agree that the Knicks are unlikely the #2 seed, but modest improvement from KP should also be worth a win or two.
think people lost track of how young Antetokounmpo is/was when they were doubting him early in the season. Just for context he's YOUNGER than 2016 pick Kris Dunn. Antetokounmpo with Jason Kidd as his coach is a match made in heaven.
Knicks are bypassing "meh", and "mediocre" and "average" straight to "elite NBA team" with the addition of Noah and one of the available 2 guards? That's not being a pessimist. That's being realistic. If they win 9 more games next year.. that only puts them 15 winsout of the 2 seed... 15
So just so I understand your point Dan, are you suggesting the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, Celtics are "elite NBA teams"?!
Why? Because 12 teams finished ahead of the Knicks last year. The 2 seed won 56 games. The Knicks barring Rose being amazing are not going to jump 11 teams and win 22ish more games sorry. Based on what improvement? Lopez and Noah is a wash. So Derrick Rose and say Evan Turner = the Knicks 2nd best team in the east? You realize they have something like 7 total players under contract right?
I agree that the Knicks are unlikely the #2 seed, but modest improvement from KP should also be worth a win or two.
Sure and I'm expecting him to improve next season but 2016 the #2 seed won 56 games, 2015 53. The Knicks barring Rose being "old Rose" (or KP being elite) are not improving THAT much you guys can quote me.
Nothing but love and respect from his Chicago fans on Noahs instagram
Knicks are bypassing "meh", and "mediocre" and "average" straight to "elite NBA team" with the addition of Noah and one of the available 2 guards? That's not being a pessimist. That's being realistic. If they win 9 more games next year.. that only puts them 15 winsout of the 2 seed... 15
So just so I understand your point Dan, are you suggesting the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, Celtics are "elite NBA teams"?!
In terms of win totals yeah the Raptors are elite. The Knicks are improving 20+ wins? Based on what? These other 45-50 win teams are getting worse as the Knicks get better? What did I miss? Pacers added more to their roster than we did.
trying to understand an argument in which (lets assume everyone agrees the Cavs are the best team in the east)
Toronto, Celtics, Heat, Hawks, Hornets and Pacers (45-56 wins) all cease to improve/remain good but the Knicks rocket up to elite level (in terms of win totals) and are in the mix for the 2 seed.
They need to spend an absurd amount of money just to reach the salary floor and they also don't want to commit too many years to players that should be drafted/recruited over.
Bayless can shoot and let Simmons dominate the ball while the PG of the future is presumably drafted next year with one of - the Lakers pick - the Sixers pick - the right to swap picks with the Kings
And I didn't even pay attention to the dollar amount for Turner.
trying to understand an argument in which (lets assume everyone agrees the Cavs are the best team in the east)
Toronto, Celtics, Heat, Hawks, Hornets and Pacers (45-56 wins) all cease to improve/remain good but the Knicks rocket up to elite level (in terms of win totals) and are in the mix for the 2 seed.
If the Hawks lose Horford/Bazemore/Teague.... they are going to be worst.
The rest of the teams are grinders, I dont see any of them with the potential to make noise in the playoffs outside beating each other up (which essentially happened this year). The Pacers are probably the team that improved the most out of the teams listed, but the Knicks ceiling is higher than anyone not named Cleveland.
trying to understand an argument in which (lets assume everyone agrees the Cavs are the best team in the east)
Toronto, Celtics, Heat, Hawks, Hornets and Pacers (45-56 wins) all cease to improve/remain good but the Knicks rocket up to elite level (in terms of win totals) and are in the mix for the 2 seed.
If the Hawks lose Horford/Bazemore/Teague.... they are going to be worst.
The rest of the teams are grinders, I dont see any of them with the potential to make noise in the playoffs outside beating each other up (which essentially happened this year). The Pacers are probably the team that improved the most out of the teams listed, but the Knicks ceiling is higher than anyone not named Cleveland.
Who is talking about what they do in the playoffs? It was stated the Knicks would challenge for the 2 seed. I said that would only happen if Derrick Rose of 3+ years ago appears not the Rose we have seen the past 2. Obviously if Rose is fantastic and/or KP develops quickly the Knicks could "surprise" but that's where the Knicks "upside" lies. Considering the Raptors won 56 games and went deep into the playoffs I find it hard to accept the Knicks have higher "ceiling" unless we are talking the scenario I stated previously.
is suggesting Lin got 36 million because the NBA is trying to promote the Asian market. C'mon if Bayless gets 27 then Lin at 36 is more than fair. Lin is not "Linsanity" good but he's a solid NBA PG.
Adrian Wojnarowski @WojVerticalNBA 53s53 seconds ago
Sources on @TheVertical: After agreeing to $70M deal with Evan Turner, Portland aggressively pursuing Pau Gasol.
is suggesting Lin got 36 million because the NBA is trying to promote the Asian market. C'mon if Bayless gets 27 then Lin at 36 is more than fair. Lin is not "Linsanity" good but he's a solid NBA PG.
I don't think he's a traditional starting PG. Last year, he had a lot of success as a scorer off the bench.
is suggesting Lin got 36 million because the NBA is trying to promote the Asian market. C'mon if Bayless gets 27 then Lin at 36 is more than fair. Lin is not "Linsanity" good but he's a solid NBA PG.
I don't think he's a traditional starting PG. Last year, he had a lot of success as a scorer off the bench.
Has history with Atkinson which is why I'm so high on the move. I think he is going to prove to be "quite solid".
Might be a nice option for a cheap backup big man. He's better than the likes of Seraphim and Amundson, at least. Not a good defender, but a good rebounder who can hit some threes.
trying to understand an argument in which (lets assume everyone agrees the Cavs are the best team in the east)
Toronto, Celtics, Heat, Hawks, Hornets and Pacers (45-56 wins) all cease to improve/remain good but the Knicks rocket up to elite level (in terms of win totals) and are in the mix for the 2 seed.
As of right now Dan, the Pacers is the only team that has definitively improved. I can easily make an argument that the other teams you listed have not and have all taken a step back.
So yes, I think the Knicks can improve 18-22 games. But I'll respect your opinion. Is it highly probable that the Knicks is the #2 seed next year? Maybe not. But it's not out of the realm of possibilities or unrealistic at all. Everything has to fall into place. We'll see.
4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
Are you ever going to shut the fuck up about Rose??
4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
better than Rose and Irving he says....
Thats not what I said, but I guess simpletons who cant read cant be expected to understand such complicated concepts such as "metrics". Sorry if math scares you.
4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
better than Rose and Irving he says....
Thats not what I said, but I guess simpletons who cant read cant be expected to understand such complicated concepts such as "metrics". Sorry if math scares you.
Awesome backpedal. How are your ball skills and tackling?
Doesn't play basketball. People do. People that use metrics are people who never played ball. Get it?
Every single front office in any successful sports franchise is DOMINATED by metrics. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean you should be afraid of it. Just because they don't agree with what you think you see(or don't because you don't watch every play from every NBA player), doesn't mean they are wrong.
you saw every game from the Bulls and every game from the Cavs, you are a flat out liar. Therefore, why are your eyes more dependable then the #s, all of which think Delladova was better then Rose?
WS: 3.8/.4
WS48: .98/.009
BPM: -1.6/-3.3
VORP: .2/-.7
Orating: 109/96
D Rating: 108/110
RPM: .68(18th best PG in NBA)/-4.27 (77th best PG in the NBA)
Now can one of you absolute maroons tell me how Rose is so much better then Delladova but the metrics cant see it?
B-b-b-but Rose won MVP in 2011-2012!!!
Honestly not sure if you're serious or not.
100%. If you can prove me wrong, feel free.
Find a single coach in any basketball league that would give MD more minutes than DR. Feel free to use a powerpoint presentation of numbers to encourage them.
Watch basketball games with your computer and load stats on excel (if it still exists). Yes I can watch a game a tell which fucking player is better than another player. I don't have to work at NASA and have a computer program to tell me. Now on to important stuff like free agency!
if meaningful, is actually working in the Knicks favor, not against them. If they've already reached a general agreement and are waiting to announce terms for a specific reason it's most likely because they're trying to work on something behind the scenes with another player(s), trying to have the contract pieces fit together better.
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
Watch basketball games with your computer and load stats on excel (if it still exists). Yes I can watch a game a tell which fucking player is better than another player. I don't have to work at NASA and have a computer program to tell me. Now on to important stuff like free agency!
So answer my question- how many games of the Bulls and how many of the Cavs did you watch?
Are giving out contracts based on someone's VORP score.
Lets see- top 20 in NBA in VORP:
Value Over Replacement Player
1. Stephen Curry ▪ GSW 9.8
2. Russell Westbrook ▪ OKC 8.3
3. LeBron James ▪ CLE 7.6
4. James Harden ▪ HOU 6.9
5. Kevin Durant ▪ OKC 6.4
6. Kyle Lowry ▪ TOR 6.3
7. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 6.2
8. Chris Paul ▪ LAC 6.0
9. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 5.5
10. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 4.9
11. Paul George ▪ IND 4.6
12. Kemba Walker ▪ CHO 4.4
13. Al Horford ▪ ATL 4.1
14. Damian Lillard ▪ POR 3.8
15. Jimmy Butler ▪ CHI 3.7
16. John Wall ▪ WAS 3.7
17. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 3.5
18. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 3.5
19. Isaiah Thomas ▪ BOS 3.3
20. Gordon Hayward ▪ UTA 3.3
Seems like they are? Let me know why VORP is so inaccurate again?
I have the NBA League Pass dumbass and I've seen quite a few.
and Rose is one of my favorite players, and always turned the game on , when given the chance, when he was playing. He doesn't play even remotely close to the same level, as Rose did and still does today.
You are abysmal with your "metrics" to try and prove you actually have some basketball acumen and are, "all knowing"
You do realize no one here agrees with you right? You're such a narcissistic troll lol.
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
Your usage of analytics has a striking resemblance to Jerry Seinfeld's father referencing his Wizard as a "tip calculator."
Having the the best tools to do a job means shit if you don't know how to properly use the tools.
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
not a single one of you have been able to even remotely touch the actual topic. You just keep attacking me and saying "But my eyes".
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
and Rose is one of my favorite players, and always turned the game on , when given the chance, when he was playing. He doesn't play even remotely close to the same level, as Rose did and still does today.
You are abysmal with your "metrics" to try and prove you actually have some basketball acumen and are, "all knowing"
You do realize no one here agrees with you right? You're such a narcissistic troll lol.
There are quite a few posters who agree with me here, and as always, I am open to anyone disagreeing with me and telling me why I'm wrong for any other reason but their "eyes".
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
150% agree with you on this. The discussion started by someone saying he was one of the worst players in the NBA.
However- Rose did what he was asked to and he failed, so whether Delladova would have is only part of the story.
not a single one of you have been able to even remotely touch the actual topic. You just keep attacking me and saying "But my eyes".
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
who think Delly is a better PG than Rose are the same guys who gave Aaron Rodgers a negative score on PFF for his 24-26 5 TD performance.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
PFF does individual grading. All the stats I gave you are math based metrics. If you don't like one, sure, no problem. However, if they ALL agree, then you don't think that there must be SOME merit to them?
The late announcement could be they are negotiating with a player and noah is willing to take a couple million less to make it work if he has to so they are waiting to announce
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
Watch him ignore this post like he did with Aspanos last post.
If it doesn't fit his agenda, he won't argue with someone else's logic. His act has already gotten old. He's not worth the spit.
Stick the metrics up your ass! Use your eyes! They tell a lot. That is if you know the game.
How many basketball games do you watch a year?
I guarantee I watch a shit more than you do. I'll even put up posting on BBI between us if you wanna wager.
Stay out of this dipshit, I'm arguing with someone way dumber then you for once.
Arguing with yourself?
You are comparing two players in two totally different situation. One guy who became a cheerleader for his team in the playoffs against a a player who had to do more for his team than Delly had to do for his entire career. Delly shot 40%, yes 40%, from the floor this year. His role was to stand in the corner or in the wing and wait for Lebron to find him, and then go play defense. When he was inept at that.... he found himself on the benchduring the playoffs.
comparing rose to matt fucking delladova is stupid.
not a single one of you have been able to even remotely touch the actual topic. You just keep attacking me and saying "But my eyes".
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Ummmm, I work in data science. When doing any type of analysis, the first thing you're trained to do is look at the numbers and literally ask yourself "does this make sense?"
So let me ask you - look at the numbers that you're comparing. Do they make sense?
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
Watch him ignore this post like he did with Aspanos last post.
If it doesn't fit his agenda, he won't argue with someone else's logic. His act has already gotten old. He's not worth the spit.
I replied already, you dipsit. I'm not responding to Aspano because bringing up one metric in a different sport does literally nothing to my point.
who think Delly is a better PG than Rose are the same guys who gave Aaron Rodgers a negative score on PFF for his 24-26 5 TD performance.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
PFF does individual grading. All the stats I gave you are math based metrics. If you don't like one, sure, no problem. However, if they ALL agree, then you don't think that there must be SOME merit to them?
Stats often times eliminate all context. As I mentioned before, advanced statistics work in baseball, where is usually a 1 v 1 contest. In basketball, when there are 5 guys working together and fit is so important, it's much more difficult. Do you realistically think any team would trade Derrick Rose for Delly right now? Even after the injuries?
not a single one of you have been able to even remotely touch the actual topic. You just keep attacking me and saying "But my eyes".
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
150% agree with you on this. The discussion started by someone saying he was one of the worst players in the NBA.
However- Rose did what he was asked to and he failed, so whether Delladova would have is only part of the story.
If you're arguing that Dellavedova was more efficient in a limited role in his best season than Rose was in his worst season then ok. But really statements beyond that aren't supported by the metrics you chose.
Also, fuck Delly he's a dirty little cunt.
I'm curious to see the reasoning and logic behind Delly being
who think Delly is a better PG than Rose are the same guys who gave Aaron Rodgers a negative score on PFF for his 24-26 5 TD performance.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
PFF does individual grading. All the stats I gave you are math based metrics. If you don't like one, sure, no problem. However, if they ALL agree, then you don't think that there must be SOME merit to them?
Stats often times eliminate all context. As I mentioned before, advanced statistics work in baseball, where is usually a 1 v 1 contest. In basketball, when there are 5 guys working together and fit is so important, it's much more difficult. Do you realistically think any team would trade Derrick Rose for Delly right now? Even after the injuries?
I would say it depends what you need for your team. A lot of teams wouldn't need Rose's skill set, whereas Delladova makes way more sense for them. A good 3 point, defensive shooting role playing PG can fit almost any team. A ball dominant poor shooting, poor defender maybe not as many teams.
Additionally, many stats don't eliminate context at all, but instead try to figure out what a players responsibility was in that 5 on 5 game. Maybe you are unfamiliar with them and should understand them a bit more before you attack them. Let me know I can send you some links.
not a single one of you have been able to even remotely touch the actual topic. You just keep attacking me and saying "But my eyes".
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Wanna wager how many bulls game i watched/
I'm sure all of them, but how many Cavs games did you watch then?
Just ignore Sgrcts no matter what you say he is going to disagree and he is going to hate every move the knicks make, can we just stop every knicks thread turns into this it's annoying
not a single one of you have been able to even remotely touch the actual topic. You just keep attacking me and saying "But my eyes".
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Wanna wager how many bulls game i watched/
I'm sure all of them, but how many Cavs games did you watch then?
who think Delly is a better PG than Rose are the same guys who gave Aaron Rodgers a negative score on PFF for his 24-26 5 TD performance.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
PFF does individual grading. All the stats I gave you are math based metrics. If you don't like one, sure, no problem. However, if they ALL agree, then you don't think that there must be SOME merit to them?
Stats often times eliminate all context. As I mentioned before, advanced statistics work in baseball, where is usually a 1 v 1 contest. In basketball, when there are 5 guys working together and fit is so important, it's much more difficult. Do you realistically think any team would trade Derrick Rose for Delly right now? Even after the injuries?
I would say it depends what you need for your team. A lot of teams wouldn't need Rose's skill set, whereas Delladova makes way more sense for them. A good 3 point, defensive shooting role playing PG can fit almost any team. A ball dominant poor shooting, poor defender maybe not as many teams.
Additionally, many stats don't eliminate context at all, but instead try to figure out what a players responsibility was in that 5 on 5 game. Maybe you are unfamiliar with them and should understand them a bit more before you attack them. Let me know I can send you some links.
Unless a statistic has become sentient, it is impossible for a stat to determine a player's responsibility in a game. And don't gave me usage rate as some factor to determine a player's "responsibility."
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
150% agree with you on this. The discussion started by someone saying he was one of the worst players in the NBA.
However- Rose did what he was asked to and he failed, so whether Delladova would have is only part of the story.
If you're arguing that Dellavedova was more efficient in a limited role in his best season than Rose was in his worst season then ok. But really statements beyond that aren't supported by the metrics you chose.
Also, fuck Delly he's a dirty little cunt.
Can you tell me how they aren't supported by the metrics? Again- the argument started by someone saying Delladova was one of the worst players in the NBA, and my point was his last season was a better season then Rose's. The metrics bare this out. Whether you think that is predictive or not is a different discussion.
Of course they didn't match. LeBron's eye test on his own court, tells you all you need to know.. But shhh...don't tell Sgrcts that.. it's all about his metrics lol.
not involved in this argument nor do I want to be but I don't think it's fair to characterize Sgts as some Knick hater.
Every thread now turns into this, he may not be a knicks hater but he sure hates them now
How am I a Knicks hater or how did I even turn this thread into that? I made a point about Delladova and used Rose to reference that. Its all you sensitive pussies who got your panties in a bunch and are completely against critical thinking.
I said I'm not wadding into this argument but I do think a major bone of contention on BBI is when someone is heavily into metrics (that includes with the Giants, Mets, Yankees etc) and others aren't.
not involved in this argument nor do I want to be but I don't think it's fair to characterize Sgts as some Knick hater.
Every thread now turns into this, he may not be a knicks hater but he sure hates them now
How am I a Knicks hater or how did I even turn this thread into that? I made a point about Delladova and used Rose to reference that. Its all you sensitive pussies who got your panties in a bunch and are completely against critical thinking.
I'm not arguing with your but every post you make now brings up how much you hate rose, we get it you hate the trade, but guess what it's over, you say the same thing in every single thread...
Heisenberg actually took the time, as an example, to point out where he thinks the metrics wouldn't accurately reflect the roles Rose and Delladova had. Thats a fair statement and worth discussing.
Most of you other losers cant be bothered to even understand what you're arguing against to make a counter argument.
Did GM LeBron use your version of "critical thinking" when he and the front office made their determination, and allowed him to walk. You fucking moron.
Quote:
not involved in this argument nor do I want to be but I don't think it's fair to characterize Sgts as some Knick hater.
Every thread now turns into this, he may not be a knicks hater but he sure hates them now
How am I a Knicks hater or how did I even turn this thread into that? I made a point about Delladova and used Rose to reference that. Its all you sensitive pussies who got your panties in a bunch and are completely against critical thinking.
I'm not arguing with your but every post you make now brings up how much you hate rose, we get it you hate the trade, but guess what it's over, you say the same thing in every single thread...
will be getting as many open looks on the Bucks without Lebron creating open looks..
And I was very critical of Rose early on the year when he wasnt playing well, I am not denying it one bit. I hated when he settled for shooting nothing but 3s. But as the year went on, I made many, many posts on how he was playing better, because he was playing better.
will be getting as many open looks on the Bucks without Lebron creating open looks..
And I was very critical of Rose early on the year when he wasnt playing well, I am not denying it one bit. I hated when he settled for shooting nothing but 3s. But as the year went on, I made many, many posts on how he was playing better, because he was playing better.
I dunno, not comparing him to Lebron but Greek Freak can replicate much of what Lebron does when he's dominating the ball.
will be getting as many open looks on the Bucks without Lebron creating open looks..
And I was very critical of Rose early on the year when he wasnt playing well, I am not denying it one bit. I hated when he settled for shooting nothing but 3s. But as the year went on, I made many, many posts on how he was playing better, because he was playing better.
Thats probably true but Bucks have a pretty talented offensive team and can def use his defense.
Also, when it comes to Rose I would listen to your "eyes" because you actually watch him. Thats pretty much my point- the eye test is not a real test if you've seen a guy play 100 minutes in a season. Even at that, the best way to judge a player is eye test + stats, because if they tell you the same thing then they're letting you know your judgement based off one or the other is correct. If they clash, then you have to figure out either what your eyes are missing or what the metrics are.
Again, to use Heisenberg example, Rose was asked to do a lot, and maybe he was miscast in that role and will benefit greatly from having different guys around him. To your point, Delly was getting a ton of open looks by having Lebron on his team. Combining the two ways of looking at sports is the only way to truly judge a player though.
Are so many against the Austin Rivers signing. I havent watched him wnough, but is he really that much worse than typical NBA PG's?? Is there an available back up PG to get excited about?
Lebron is the greatest. Not only did he win a championship for Cleveland but all his scrubs are now getting paid by other teams just for the mere fact that they shared a locker room with him. You put Galloaway with Lebron I bet he would command a $80 million contract.
Are so many against the Austin Rivers signing. I havent watched him wnough, but is he really that much worse than typical NBA PG's?? Is there an available back up PG to get excited about?
He's terrible. Career 40% from the field, 32% from 3 with a 9.7 PER
will be getting as many open looks on the Bucks without Lebron creating open looks..
And I was very critical of Rose early on the year when he wasnt playing well, I am not denying it one bit. I hated when he settled for shooting nothing but 3s. But as the year went on, I made many, many posts on how he was playing better, because he was playing better.
Thats probably true but Bucks have a pretty talented offensive team and can def use his defense.
Also, when it comes to Rose I would listen to your "eyes" because you actually watch him. Thats pretty much my point- the eye test is not a real test if you've seen a guy play 100 minutes in a season. Even at that, the best way to judge a player is eye test + stats, because if they tell you the same thing then they're letting you know your judgement based off one or the other is correct. If they clash, then you have to figure out either what your eyes are missing or what the metrics are.
Again, to use Heisenberg example, Rose was asked to do a lot, and maybe he was miscast in that role and will benefit greatly from having different guys around him. To your point, Delly was getting a ton of open looks by having Lebron on his team. Combining the two ways of looking at sports is the only way to truly judge a player though.
I dont think anyone realizes how much of a mess the Bulls were last year. Rose/Noah HATED Butler and Hoiberg. It went as far as Noah not even showing up to rehab with the Bulls because he hated Butler. Butler wanted to be the stud, main guy. And he was the best Bull - but it cause da lot of dissention. Rose and Butler both played better when the other was out. And the Bulls were so horrendously bad at defensive last year (yes sgrcts, I admit Rose isnt a great defender) but you have to realize that guys like Mcdemott, Mirotic, Gasol, and Portis were just as bad. So using advanced stats on a Bulsl team where everyone was hurt, there was no cohesion, and there were a lot of guys on the team who didnt like each other. It led to ugly ass basketball.
So as far as Rose. Yes, he will never be an MVP again. He may never be an all-star, even though I believe he can be. However, he has never played with two guy like a melo and KP. Melo will instantly be the best scorer, jump shooter he has played with. That alone will increase his assist numbers. Plus the relationship Rose and Noah have is amazing. Noah would do anything for Rose.
Like I said, it wouldnt shock me to see rose go for 16-17 a game with 7-8 assists a game with 45-46% shooting since he doesnt have to carry the load offensively with Melo there.
Are so many against the Austin Rivers signing. I havent watched him wnough, but is he really that much worse than typical NBA PG's?? Is there an available back up PG to get excited about?
He's terrible. Career 40% from the field, 32% from 3 with a 9.7 PER
Delly is better than Rose. It is that Delly arguably played better than Rose last season and the advanced stats were given to back that up. Remember Rose's terrible start which was apparently due to injury? Well that start is factored in to his stats.
So is he wrong. Full body of work, was Delly necessarily worse than Rose in 2015-16? It's debatable. It's not laughable to raise the point. You gonna shoot 42% on high volume and sport a 4.7:2.7 ratio as a 32 mpg PG, you're going to be open to questions about just how effective you really were. If you're traded for Lopez and Grant and so many fans from your new team basically write off the give as no biggie, it raises questions too.
Are so many against the Austin Rivers signing. I havent watched him wnough, but is he really that much worse than typical NBA PG's?? Is there an available back up PG to get excited about?
He's terrible. Career 40% from the field, 32% from 3 with a 9.7 PER
Hornacek project on the cheap.
Doesn't sound so cheap. Supposedly looking for 5 million per. I also take a bit of an issue with the idea Hornacek can turn turds into gold (and I liked the hire) but Rivers sucked in NO, sucked with his dad in LA and isn't a good defensive player. He's also terrible at the FT line for a PG so you don't even want him out there late.
Are so many against the Austin Rivers signing. I havent watched him wnough, but is he really that much worse than typical NBA PG's?? Is there an available back up PG to get excited about?
He's terrible. Career 40% from the field, 32% from 3 with a 9.7 PER
Hornacek project on the cheap.
I'd sort of hope that Doc Rivers' son's problem after 4 seasons in the league is not related to the coaching he's gotten. I certainly wouldnt bet on it.
I dont think anyone realizes how much of a mess the Bulls were last year. Rose/Noah HATED Butler and Hoiberg. It went as far as Noah not even showing up to rehab with the Bulls because he hated Butler. Butler wanted to be the stud, main guy. And he was the best Bull - but it cause da lot of dissention. Rose and Butler both played better when the other was out. And the Bulls were so horrendously bad at defensive last year (yes sgrcts, I admit Rose isnt a great defender) but you have to realize that guys like Mcdemott, Mirotic, Gasol, and Portis were just as bad. So using advanced stats on a Bulsl team where everyone was hurt, there was no cohesion, and there were a lot of guys on the team who didnt like each other. It led to ugly ass basketball.
So as far as Rose. Yes, he will never be an MVP again. He may never be an all-star, even though I believe he can be. However, he has never played with two guy like a melo and KP. Melo will instantly be the best scorer, jump shooter he has played with. That alone will increase his assist numbers. Plus the relationship Rose and Noah have is amazing. Noah would do anything for Rose.
Like I said, it wouldnt shock me to see rose go for 16-17 a game with 7-8 assists a game with 45-46% shooting since he doesnt have to carry the load offensively with Melo there.
Again, all that is valid. I personally don't see it mostly because I am not sure Rose is really willing to change his role in the NBA. Butler might not be the scorer Melo is, but he's a better player at this stage in their careers. Does the move to NYC change his ego enough that he's willing to step back and let Melo and KP be the guiding factors in this team? More importantly, has he developed the skills that will carry him now that his athleticism isn't what it was? I don't see it, but the argument for the trade is the one you put forth.
However- it does nothing to dispute what the advanced stats said last year about their plays ultimately.
Delly is better than Rose. It is that Delly arguably played better than Rose last season and the advanced stats were given to back that up. Remember Rose's terrible start which was apparently due to injury? Well that start is factored in to his stats.
So is he wrong. Full body of work, was Delly necessarily worse than Rose in 2015-16? It's debatable. It's not laughable to raise the point. You gonna shoot 42% on high volume and sport a 4.7:2.7 ratio as a 32 mpg PG, you're going to be open to questions about just how effective you really were. If you're traded for Lopez and Grant and so many fans from your new team basically write off the give as no biggie, it raises questions too.
Deej, prepare to duck. Not only are you agreeing with me, you're using STATS to do so. Blasphemous!
Delly is better than Rose. It is that Delly arguably played better than Rose last season and the advanced stats were given to back that up. Remember Rose's terrible start which was apparently due to injury? Well that start is factored in to his stats.
So is he wrong. Full body of work, was Delly necessarily worse than Rose in 2015-16? It's debatable. It's not laughable to raise the point. You gonna shoot 42% on high volume and sport a 4.7:2.7 ratio as a 32 mpg PG, you're going to be open to questions about just how effective you really were. If you're traded for Lopez and Grant and so many fans from your new team basically write off the give as no biggie, it raises questions too.
Deej, prepare to duck. Not only are you agreeing with me, you're using STATS to do so. Blasphemous!
I saw Rose when Gasol was there start to change his role. Pau and Rose actually had a good repoire on the pick and roll. Rose would pass first, shoot 2nd a lot on the pick and roll last year which was a big change where he would attack or pull up for a jumper.
One other note to make aware of aware of. Rose in the open court was still pretty sweet last year. He didnt dunk or finish like he used too, but he is still faster/stronger than majority of guards in the league. The problem was he didnt get as many opportunities due to the other team scoring so much and the bulls not forcing as many TOs.
With KP and Noah and a defensive 2 guard..... Knicks should be better defensively and create easier opportunities for rose in the open floor.
Not that I'm a huge fan of his, but it's a guy who plays defense and doesn't dominate the ball in any way. He can also be traded if an opportunity presents itself down the line.
and try to build more of a bench. Seems pretty necessary given the starters as 1, 3, 4, and 5.
How about Gerald Henderson? Sandpaper defender. Came in and couldnt shoot. Has gotten better and better. Last year shot 35.3% from 3. I think he has upside. Lower end 3&D guy who I think could really move into the very good 3&D camp. Dukie. Corner 3 guy, but we have two forwards who can take the tougher 3s.
Seriously, can you just shut the fuck up for once? I come on here to find out NEWS about what is going on in the NBA and all I am reading is your opinion on stats AGAIN. Nobody gives a shit as I am sure you can tell because this is like the 10th Knicks thread in like 2 weeks where everybody is telling you the same thing. Can we just focus on what is happening in the NBA and not what you think? Thanks. It is much appreciated.
although I'd have a lot less confidence handing Rush 30 mpg. He's a guy I'd like to sign in addition to a starting 2.
Really think we need to spread the wealth. Henderson at SG and then Thomas, Galloway, Hernangomez is the start of a decent bench that can really defend the 1-4.
Seriously, can you just shut the fuck up for once? I come on here to find out NEWS about what is going on in the NBA and all I am reading is your opinion on stats AGAIN. Nobody gives a shit as I am sure you can tell because this is like the 10th Knicks thread in like 2 weeks where everybody is telling you the same thing. Can we just focus on what is happening in the NBA and not what you think? Thanks. It is much appreciated.
How about you eat a dick, maybe with some hot sauce on it?
and try to build more of a bench. Seems pretty necessary given the starters as 1, 3, 4, and 5.
How about Gerald Henderson? Sandpaper defender. Came in and couldnt shoot. Has gotten better and better. Last year shot 35.3% from 3. I think he has upside. Lower end 3&D guy who I think could really move into the very good 3&D camp. Dukie. Corner 3 guy, but we have two forwards who can take the tougher 3s.
He's on the older side for an upside play, but agreed that we need as many playable bodies as we can. I don't think Lee is good enough that he's better then playing for depth and hoping for the best.
Zach Lowe posted a good article today which discusses the Knicks
and try to build more of a bench. Seems pretty necessary given the starters as 1, 3, 4, and 5.
How about Gerald Henderson? Sandpaper defender. Came in and couldnt shoot. Has gotten better and better. Last year shot 35.3% from 3. I think he has upside. Lower end 3&D guy who I think could really move into the very good 3&D camp. Dukie. Corner 3 guy, but we have two forwards who can take the tougher 3s.
I actually like the idea of Henderson. He is a solid player, and he is about at that age where you see a lot of these 3 and D type guys start to "get it." Definitely think he would be a good get and would probably come cheaper than some of the other names floated.
It could just be gas but I have a feeling knicks are trying to sign wa
Knicks are way to quiet right now and it seems like there is no news on wade...
A few reasons why I think wade is leaving...
1 heat are capped out after signing wade...
2 they are still meeting with durant which means it is Durant or wade, I think that pissed off wade...
3 Noah's terms not announced, he announced he is signing but no reason for his agent not to release terms unless there is wiggle room for another player...
4 knicks are going for it So if wade is really available why not just really go for it and bring in wade if he is truly available?
It is just way to quiet, I think Phil and Melo are working on getting wade...
RE: RE: We could go a little cheaper at starting SG
and try to build more of a bench. Seems pretty necessary given the starters as 1, 3, 4, and 5.
How about Gerald Henderson? Sandpaper defender. Came in and couldnt shoot. Has gotten better and better. Last year shot 35.3% from 3. I think he has upside. Lower end 3&D guy who I think could really move into the very good 3&D camp. Dukie. Corner 3 guy, but we have two forwards who can take the tougher 3s.
He's on the older side for an upside play, but agreed that we need as many playable bodies as we can. I don't think Lee is good enough that he's better then playing for depth and hoping for the best.
See Lopes' point about 3 & D guys developing later. E.g. Carroll broke out in his age 27 season.
That's the thing about these 3 and D guys. They tend to be late bloomers. If you're doing it at age 23, you're probably going to end up as more than a 3 and D guy.
Henderson, depending on what you can get him for, has contract upside. It's not clear that Lee at 15 or more million will have contract upside.
Seriously, can you just shut the fuck up for once? I come on here to find out NEWS about what is going on in the NBA and all I am reading is your opinion on stats AGAIN. Nobody gives a shit as I am sure you can tell because this is like the 10th Knicks thread in like 2 weeks where everybody is telling you the same thing. Can we just focus on what is happening in the NBA and not what you think? Thanks. It is much appreciated.
Agreed. Holy hell is it tough to skim this thread to see what's going on.
There is a moratorium on free agent signings. Players can make their intentions known, but acquired free agent deals are not signed until July 6 at the earliest. There's not nothing the team can announce. Noah already confirmed where he's going on his social media.
in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Multiple sources have reported deals. Cleveland.com, Woj, other writers. There are exact parameters of deals. Regarding Noah....
Joakim Noah posted a picture on his Instagram of himself wearing a Knicks hat.
It's a lock that Noah will be joining the Knicks, but we're still waiting on official confirmation. For what it's worth, the last report from The Vertical indicated that he could receive a four-year, $70 million deal. This would be a great spot for Noah's fantasy value as he would immediately become the Knicks' starting center. Jul 1 - 3:19 PM
There are no concrete numbers. It's "estimates" or "could be" or something else not exact.
All of the other deals say 4-38 or 5-98 or 3-30. Noah's deal says in the range or could be for around 70 or something like that. Why aren't they leaking the exact number like every other deal?
Seriously, can you just shut the fuck up for once? I come on here to find out NEWS about what is going on in the NBA and all I am reading is your opinion on stats AGAIN. Nobody gives a shit as I am sure you can tell because this is like the 10th Knicks thread in like 2 weeks where everybody is telling you the same thing. Can we just focus on what is happening in the NBA and not what you think? Thanks. It is much appreciated.
This. Exactly. I've been trying to read these threads since Rose was traded for, and all I see is this guy whining, bitching, moaning and complaining. Ok, we get it. You hate Rose. And because you hate Rose, you hate every move the Knocks will ever make afterwards. And, we also get it, that you feel every player on the planet that plays for other teams is awesome while every player on the Knicks sucks balls. Now, like Robbie said, can you please shut the fuck up? You're ruining these threads. I understand that Knicks fans are programmed to be negative. But hasn't this team put us through enough? We need to be trolled by our fellow fans too? Just take your negativity somewhere else for fucks sake.
Legion Hoops @LegionHoops
Dwight Howard is going home. Hawks will pay him $70.5 million over the next 3 years. (Y!)
Wow. Not saying Howard is better than Horford but that might be a better fit for Atlanta. They got absolutely dominated by true centers on the boards and in the paint. If they can retain Bazemore (or pull another fringe NBA player to fill that role out of their ass, yet again) they should continue to be in the middle of the pack in the east.
Also means Horford is out, OKC could take advantage of it now
Seriously, can you just shut the fuck up for once? I come on here to find out NEWS about what is going on in the NBA and all I am reading is your opinion on stats AGAIN. Nobody gives a shit as I am sure you can tell because this is like the 10th Knicks thread in like 2 weeks where everybody is telling you the same thing. Can we just focus on what is happening in the NBA and not what you think? Thanks. It is much appreciated.
+1000
And in other news, Mike Conley Jr. just signed the richest deal
in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
RE: RE: RE: Zach Lowe posted a good article today which discusses the Knicks
in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
So true. A non-Knicks fan can just scan this thread to see how far low the bar has been Set now.
in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
So true. A non-Knicks fan can just scan this thread to see how far low the bar has been Set now.
It's weird. Some of the same people are very, VERY critical and discerning about the Giants. A team that's actually won championships this century.
Brian WindhorstVerified account
@WindhorstESPN
Dwyane Wade is in contract talks with the Knicks & Bucks and could schedule meetings next week, sources told ESPN.
RE: RE: RE: Zach Lowe posted a good article today which discusses the Knicks
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
Umm...
The Spurs got Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, George Hill (who they eventually flipped for Kawhi Leonard), and Thiago Splitter without a 1st round pick higher than 25. They signed Danny Green off of the scrap heap.
Brian WindhorstVerified account
@WindhorstESPN
Dwyane Wade is in contract talks with the Knicks & Bucks and could schedule meetings next week, sources told ESPN.
I knew it
If money is close have to assume he chooses knicks
Ramona Shelburne @ramonashelburne
Ramona Shelburne Retweeted Brian Windhorst
Said a source close to Wade, "He wants to be compensated for his pay cuts"
John Schmeelk @Schmeelk
Then go down line to next year. You got Melo and Wade. One of their amigos, ache is Paul is a FA in 2017. Could be Phil's master plan
Ramona Shelburne @ramonashelburne
Ramona Shelburne Retweeted Brian Windhorst
Said a source close to Wade, "He wants to be compensated for his pay cuts"
The problem for the heat is if they pay wade they are capped out and their team is worse than last year and Riley wants to wait so basically they told wade we want to meet Durant first...
After signing whiteside they only have so much money to give him
RE: I guess it doesn't hurt the Knicks to stick it to riley
Methinks Wade is just working Riley for more money.
The heat only have so much money to give him, Heat are basically capped out and whiteside kind of screwed that for them because they couldn't go over the cap to sign him
assuming they don't make an offer good enough he might seriously accept.
For real, we don't need a shooting guard that can't shoot from range, and we already have Carmelo for hero ball time.
Ehh if knicks are going to go for it for the next 3 years might as well really go for it
I pretty much agree. I actually kind of love the idea of Wade in this scenario. If you're going to put together the best team of all time 5 years too late, why go half ass? I don't even mean that in a bad way. If were going for lightening in a bottle, its worth it to see if a shit ton of motivated guys past their prime can rally around a still great Melo and a soon to be great KP. At the worst its must watch TV and at the best you get one year, maybe two years, of possible contention and then a sharp decline. Wade wasn't what he was but he's still relatively productive. Also- like dep said about Rose, maybe a real switch in roles for Wade ups his productivity. Then you just find as many shooters as you can and hope KP and Noah can be fierce enough as rim protectors for having a sub par defensive back court.
Sam Amick @sam_amick 1m1 minute ago
Here's the thing about the Dwyane Wade-Knicks notion: even the Knicks acknowledge that they don't have enough $$ to satisfy his desires.
then Phil is basically fullfilling his promise to Camelo, (albeit to the best of his ability lol),before Camelo signed his contract. To give him a fighting chance to make it to the finals and try to steal one.
If we don't get it done, then Phil can say we tried and then tear it all back up in 3-4 years, and then build around KP.
I still believe it's Phils full intention, to get Camelo a fighters chance at a championship, although again, according to most fans, it's a very weak one.
And of course, all within the remainder of Melo's contract.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
Umm...
The Spurs got Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, George Hill (who they eventually flipped for Kawhi Leonard), and Thiago Splitter without a 1st round pick higher than 25. They signed Danny Green off of the scrap heap.
Ok dude. Make a plan based on drafting and developing talent like the Spurs. That experiment seems repeatable at will.
Is way better then Courtney Lee & Eric Gordon combined. If he's willing to sign here the Knicks have to do it IMO. My Brother is a huge Heat fan so it'd make it even better that his favorite basketball player ever signs for his most hated team.
Sam Amick @sam_amick 1m1 minute ago
Here's the thing about the Dwyane Wade-Knicks notion: even the Knicks acknowledge that they don't have enough $$ to satisfy his desires.
This! Wade is just posturing to force Riley to give him what he believes he deserves/gave up on other contracts As much as I'd like to stick it to Pat the Rat, I don't want to see us lose Lee or Gordon while Wade keeps us in a holding pattern, only to get his way w/the Heat.
That's simply not true. Wade played 74 games last year. He had 19 points while shooting 46% from the field with 4 rebounds, 4.6 assists & 1 steal a game. He's a much better option then Courtney Lee.
That's simply not true. Wade played 74 games last year. He had 19 points while shooting 46% from the field with 4 rebounds, 4.6 assists & 1 steal a game. He's a much better option then Courtney Lee.
But he'd see way less of the ball here, can't spread the floor, and doesn't play defense.
We need guys who can excel without the ball in their hands.
turns this team into a comedy sideshow. Lee turns it into an ECF threat.
Again, I don't know much about Lee's game, but someone above posted that Wade at his worse, is still better than Lee at his best.
Quote:
RE: Wade better at his age
dpinzow : 7:39 pm : link : reply
In comment 13018368 Canton said:
Quote:
then a Courtney Lee? I don't know much about Courtneys game.
Fossilized Wade is still way better than Courtney Lee
Whatever Wade can do seems too redundant for what Rose can do.
in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
Dude... Cmon. Now you're just finding a way to drum up negativity
A lot of Wade last year cause I'm in Boca Raton, he was better than previous 2 years. He's improved his 3pt shooting , don't think 2 of Wade would be terrible , after that though could get dicey.
A lot of Wade last year cause I'm in Boca Raton, he was better than previous 2 years. He's improved his 3pt shooting , don't think 2 of Wade would be terrible , after that though could get dicey.
That's simply not true. Wade played 74 games last year. He had 19 points while shooting 46% from the field with 4 rebounds, 4.6 assists & 1 steal a game. He's a much better option then Courtney Lee.
But he'd see way less of the ball here, can't spread the floor, and doesn't play defense.
We need guys who can excel without the ball in their hands.
People can't drill this into their heads. Yes wade is a flashier name than Lee. Yes he's a better player than Lee. But think about it practically. Rose and Melo already have some of the highest usage rates at their respective positions. What can wade do when the ball isn't in his hands? Answer: not much
If Noah contract starts at 17 mm whatdoes that leave in cap a space without making any moves and what does it leave if you rescind Galloway, Thomas and trade o Quinn for nothing
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Zach Lowe posted a good article today which discusses the Knicks
Ok dude. Make a plan based on drafting and developing talent like the Spurs. That experiment seems repeatable at will.
Current (non-Spurs) NBA players drafted 24th or later:
- Kyle Lowry
- Paul Millsap
- Marc Gasol
- Serge Ibaka
- Nicolas Batum
- DeAndre Jordan
- Goran Dragic
- Hassan Whiteside
- Reggie Jackson
- Jimmy Butler
- Chandler Parsons
- Isaiah Thomas
- Jae Crowder
- Draymond Green
- Rudy Gobert
There's obviously more, but the idea that you can't get talent or pieces to build around KP without lottery picks is foolish. You need the lottery pick to get KP... once you have the star, the rest of it is a lot easier.
Ok dude. Make a plan based on drafting and developing talent like the Spurs. That experiment seems repeatable at will.
Current (non-Spurs) NBA players drafted 24th or later:
- Kyle Lowry
- Paul Millsap
- Marc Gasol
- Serge Ibaka
- Nicolas Batum
- DeAndre Jordan
- Goran Dragic
- Hassan Whiteside
- Reggie Jackson
- Jimmy Butler
- Chandler Parsons
- Isaiah Thomas
- Jae Crowder
- Draymond Green
- Rudy Gobert
There's obviously more, but the idea that you can't get talent or pieces to build around KP without lottery picks is foolish. You need the lottery pick to get KP... once you have the star, the rest of it is a lot easier.
The list of players drafted 5 and higher is much longer and better.
RE: Tommy Dee saying Wade meeting w/Knicks Wednesday
Marc Stein @ESPNSteinLine
ESPN sources say the Knicks have made a four-year offer to Courtney Lee, but Lee has a variety of suitors and is working through the options
Adrian Wojnarowski @WojVerticalNBA
Sources: Free agent guard Eric Gordon finished meeting with Memphis hierarchy within the hour. More conversations w/ Knicks on tap too.
RE: Miami has to rescind wades rights to sign whiteside
What we seem to know is that the cap is gonna jump up a lot next year, drop a little the next, and then what? If it jumps up a lot then these big contracts may not seem bad amd have value as trading chips if the players can still play. If not, we let them expire and rebuild with Porzingis.
Austin Green @LosCrossovers 1m1 minute ago
Austin Green Retweeted Stefan Bondy
Willy to NYK is official. Special offensive player, defense/athleticism will be problems. He needs a good mentor
(Seems like Noah is perfect for this role)
"Special" offensive player? I hadnt heard that before. Exciting.
I would need to see the numbers. I think I like Gordon better if they are both healthy (a big if). I have to say I'm intrigued by Wade short term if it could lead to Paul.
I would need to see the numbers. I think I like Gordon better if they are both healthy (a big if). I have to say I'm intrigued by Wade short term if it could lead to Paul.
And Bron Bron...ok, I went there. Hey, he said it himself. He wants to play with Melo, Wade and Paul.
Though I think I'd rather have Westbrook than Paul.
I would need to see the numbers. I think I like Gordon better if they are both healthy (a big if). I have to say I'm intrigued by Wade short term if it could lead to Paul.
And Bron Bron...ok, I went there. Hey, he said it himself. He wants to play with Melo, Wade and Paul.
Though I think I'd rather have Westbrook than Paul.
Why do you keep saying that? I am not being a dick. I just don't see how that is even possible financially. If we spend all of our available cap this year then we only have room for one max assuming Rose is not re-signed. If he is then I don't think we have enough for a max. Am I wrong?
I would need to see the numbers. I think I like Gordon better if they are both healthy (a big if). I have to say I'm intrigued by Wade short term if it could lead to Paul.
And Bron Bron...ok, I went there. Hey, he said it himself. He wants to play with Melo, Wade and Paul.
Though I think I'd rather have Westbrook than Paul.
Why do you keep saying that? I am not being a dick. I just don't see how that is even possible financially. If we spend all of our available cap this year then we only have room for one max assuming Rose is not re-signed. If he is then I don't think we have enough for a max. Am I wrong?
He did say he would take less to play with those guys. I don't think it's financially feasible, but if they all take pay cuts and given how the cap keeps increasing, it may be at least possible, just not probable.
RE: Do these 4 year contracts have any correlation to the salary cap?
What we seem to know is that the cap is gonna jump up a lot next year, drop a little the next, and then what? If it jumps up a lot then these big contracts may not seem bad amd have value as trading chips if the players can still play. If not, we let them expire and rebuild with Porzingis.
Negative. The cap is projected to peak then for a few years basically either shrink a bit or flatline.
that has dealt with quite a bit of injury in the last few years.
However this team unquestionably would have a TON of talent, great character and tremendous balance. Further the top four players will all be under the age of 32.
Frontcourt:
C/PF
2 Mobile shot altering defenders- KP and Noah
2 excellent passing bigs- KP and Noah
1 very promising rookie which reports indicate is quite developed offensively (needs work on D)- Hernangomez
1 Big who can handle the more rugged PFs and C's- Noah
SF
An excellent mid range and decent 3 pt shooter who can take over games at times and also create his own shot-Melo
Backcourt:
PG
An excellent slashing PG who can create off the dribble and create open shots for his teammates with how much a Defense has to collapse off him.- Rose
SG
A career 38% 3 pt FG sharpshooter who can create his own shot who is an underrated defender. An excellent complement to Rose.- Eric Gordon
Bench:
Lance Thomas- good 3 and D guy with defensive versarility to guard some 2,3 and 4's
Galloway -good defender at the 1 and 2 spot and can hit the 3 when called upon.
Coach:
Lastly a new coach that by all accounts should be adept at creating an offensive system to fit the talents of his players and create excellent ball movement,spacing and open shots.
There is certainly risks here but this is a team that at the very least can give us legitimate hope and optimism heading into the season that they can contend in the weak Eastern Conference.
And if guys stay relatively healthy make a deep run in the playoffs and possibly the ECF.
Having a guy that can defend on the perimeter is worth his weight in gold in today's NBA. Add in the fact that he can hit the three ball is perfect for this team. He also isn't a walking wounded player like Wade or Gordon.
Now, lets say we get Lee, is there any possibility to get Gordon too? I read something that said it is possible but I don't see how.
Do we not have details on Noah's contract yet? Are the Knicks holding off to try & prevent punishment for tampering? Are they holding off to try & make other salaries fit?
Do we not have details on Noah's contract yet? Are the Knicks holding off to try & prevent punishment for tampering? Are they holding off to try & make other salaries fit?
if meaningful, could be actually working in the Knicks favor, not against them. If they've already reached a general agreement and are waiting to announce terms for a specific reason it's most likely because they're trying to work on something behind the scenes with another player(s), trying to have the contract pieces fit together better.
regarding fitting the 2nd player such as Gordon or Lee with our remaining cap space.
They might be discussing dropping the 1st year a little lower to allow to sign EG or CL and then giving him higher or the maximum allowable increases each successive year.
Ramona Shelburne ✔ @ramonashelburne
Knicks and Joakim Noah have officially agreed on a 4 year $72 million deal after meeting in Orlando tonight http://es.pn/29iLUX3
10:39 PM - 1 Jul 2016
Wade pissed at the Heat's offer to him. As he should be considering he's taken many pay cuts & been extremely loyal to them. This is from Woj
Quote:
The Heat's initial offer of $10 million annually - which would've constituted a 50 percent pay cut from his $20 million 2015-16 salary - deeply angered Wade, league sources told The Vertical. Even with the Heat planning to counter to a higher figure, league sources said, Wade has been insistent on starting to explore the market and meet with teams once he returns from an overseas vacation, league sources said.
Bazemore turned down 4 years 72 million from the Lakers. One of the best franchises in sports history to accept less money from the fucking Atlanta Hawks.
I've never seen Wade not give it 110%. He's played through injuries. In my opinion he's right there with Joakim when it comes to laying it all on the court. I've never really liked Wade either, but I could never say he doesn't give it his all.
And the Knicks likely to lock in Lee or Gordon to 4 year contracts. It stinks to know that we are prob at least another decade a way from competing for a championship. We will only have $20 million available next year assuming they don't go over the cap to sign Galloway and Thomas. So any dreams that Lebron really wants to play for Knicks one day is over. Also the hope of signing a max guy next year in the greatest free agent class ever is over leaving us with a probable over pay of rose next year. If healthy next year they will be entertaining and should be a 3-6 seed in the east, but the reality is they aren't winning anything serious.
I wish phil would have gone to melo and said that he wanted to rebuild and forced melo to accept trade to pickup some 2017 picks to begin the rebuild. Would have had our own likely lottery pick as well as whoever we traded melo to and the ability to pay for nearly 3 max guys in 2017bto play with porzingis and future picks. Now we Weill be stuck with picks in the 15-22 range for the next few years, which stinks.
Whatever happened to many BBI Knick fans expecting Durant..
That no-trade clause for Melo turned out to be a real blunder. Sad that our roster is still so barren that we have to spend like crazy just to field a team. And, yes, it will sting next summer when Westbrook is doing his FA tour and we can't even get in the game.
Remember, we also need a backup PG and a backup SF
Chris HaynesVerified account
@ChrisBHaynes
According to sources, a trade that's been pondered in recent days featured Hawks forward Paul Millsap and collection of picks owned by Suns.
Porzingis improved on staying out of foul trouble but do you really want Hernangomez as your next big in the game? We need another warm body that can defend at the 5. I am fine with playing small ball with Porzingis at the 5 but we have to have options because it can be easy for teams to get us out of that lineup.
I'll tell you what it was: REALITY. You guys crack me up. You are still living the fantasy of sucking and then somehow attracting a player of the caliber of Westbrook to even look at us. Have you learned nothing from the past 6 years? We are now at the point where the superstars aren't even to the point of laughing at us. THEY DON"T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE OUR EXISTENCE. We have to return to the NBA map to even have a chance. Phil rightfully realizes that we have to become relevant to attract the elite free agents. For those of you lamenting that we won't contend for a title for the next 10 years, what exactly is the path to doing that? tank for 3 years straight hoping that #1 we are lucky enough to get the #1 pick(and not drop from 2-4 like last year and #2 have the player available at #1 be a franchise changer when it has a much better opportunity of being Emeka Okafor or Anthony Bennett. Listen I'm not drop dead in lover with Rose or Noah, but if they can help us win 45 games and be a playoff team again I'm all for it. Then you can free up enough $ for a max guy next year and go from there. At least if we are a playoff team the stars will give us the time of day. This plan may not work but it sure as hell beats winning 30 games a year and hoping...because thats a long long road to tile contention.
RE: As discussed earlier, something caused Phil to drastically change
Hornacek mainly changed Phil's tune. Hornacek said get him some good players he wants to a competitive team. Hornacek also doesn't view Melo's career arc like most of BBI. He feels Melo has several good years left to chase championships. Which I agree with. Melo is only 32 yrs old not 42. Hornacek and the core of those Jazz teams were chasing championships well into their 30s (36/37 yrs old).
And Phil as stated very recently, "Whats so great about the East?"
Is because you figure 4 years of these bad contracts end, hopefully not dumb enough to resign melo after his expires. Then you are starting all over with just porzingis and whoever we get in the drafts of we actually keep the picks. It's just such a poorly run organization I have to think with consistency have poorly run the organization is no matter who the gm is, that Dolan is all over this. The gm changes but the same stupid moves take place so it has to be Dolan. That no trade clause for melo was flat out moronic and has basically set the franchise back 5-10 years. They could have done this right if melo didn't have the no trade clause.
I never thought I'd live to see the Lakers in such disarray. Spending a fortune on Mozgov, getting turned down by the likes of Bazemore...and their young talent's a bit overrated, too. If Ingram's not a franchise player, look out...
I never thought I'd live to see the Lakers in such disarray. Spending a fortune on Mozgov, getting turned down by the likes of Bazemore...and their young talent's a bit overrated, too. If Ingram's not a franchise player, look out...
You never thought you'd love it?
I've been waiting for the Lakers to be in disarray since I started watching sports. It's fucking great.
Live, meaning it didn't seem like it would happen in my lifetime.
#1 when was the last time a franchise traded a star like Melo and it lead to them being a title contender in 5-10 years? TWolves trading Garnett? Denver trading Melo? What package are they getting for Melo? multiple #1's? great so you are dealing him to a title contender and getting their shitty #1's. The bottom line is I counted. It takes a lot to come together and a lot of stars to align to make a team a title contender. How about this:
Rose is not an MVP but plays 60-65 games at the level he finished last year at. Noah gives us 65 games at normal Noah type stuff. We sign a decent 2 guard and make the playoffs. We Then have a near max or max slot for next year free agency. Thats a hell of a lot more plausible and more likely trip toward the upper tier of the East than tearing the whole thing down besides Porz and piling up #1's that end up being between #20-30 in the 1st rd.
RE: GMen the leaps you are making there are monumental
Phil just handed out one of the dumbest contracts in sports history to Joakim Noah.
A- The guy hasn't done shit in 2 years
B- Did anyone else actually want him?
I didn't think trading RoLo was a big deal, but at least I remember when he was good (he still is). Who the fuck were they bidding against for Noah? Smh.
Phil just handed out one of the dumbest contracts in sports history to Joakim Noah.
A- The guy hasn't done shit in 2 years
B- Did anyone else actually want him?
I didn't think trading RoLo was a big deal, but at least I remember when he was good (he still is). Who the fuck were they bidding against for Noah? Smh.
Many teams wanted Noah. They were immediately rebuffed by the player. This has been well documented. He wanted to be a Knick.
RE: I pray there's some option or protection for the team... otherwise,
Phil just handed out one of the dumbest contracts in sports history to Joakim Noah.
A- The guy hasn't done shit in 2 years
B- Did anyone else actually want him?
I didn't think trading RoLo was a big deal, but at least I remember when he was good (he still is). Who the fuck were they bidding against for Noah? Smh.
Am I the only one who thought Robin looked like sideshow Bob with a worse low post game? His low post was good for four points or so a game. He rebounded by default (everyone else was on the perimeter), he had horrendous hands, couldn't and didn't finish strong, looked surprised when he hit a jumper, never played D with his hands up, couldn't block shots, wasn't a rim protector, was Brook Lopez without the shot blocking ability....
Why are people mad we get it rid of him? He was terrible other than just being tall. If we were going to have a guy with no O game, I'd rather a big D goon who bodied up, protected the rim and grabbed boards....where's Dale and Antonio Davis when you need them?
@WojVerticalNBA
Sources: Clippers officials met with Austin Rivers Thursday in Orlando, and Rivers is expected to talk with Knicks, possibly Portland Friday
Vertical Sources: Joakim Noah and the New York Knicks are in discussions on the framework of a deal in range of four years, $70M-plus.
Fuck.
Fuck.
Woj also said 3 years 36 for afflalo before it was agreed to, don't freak out yet
Quote:
Is gonna be In the range of 4 years $70M plus.
Fuck.
Woj also said 3 years 36 for afflalo before it was agreed to, don't freak out yet
Have a bad feeling about this one. How often is he wrong?
Courtney Lee's first call after free agency started was from the New York Knicks. Phil Jackson called him, according to league source.
I sure hope so.
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In comment 13016683 giantsfan44ab said:
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Is gonna be In the range of 4 years $70M plus.
Fuck.
Woj also said 3 years 36 for afflalo before it was agreed to, don't freak out yet
Have a bad feeling about this one. How often is he wrong?
When it comes to the knicks he has been wrong a few times
An hour ago it was 3 years at 52 million. Now it's 4 years at 70 million. I'd have to think we include a team option in one of the first two years.
The 1 year deal we have Rose on suddenly looks like a bargain lol
Quote:
..
The 1 year deal we have Rose on suddenly looks like a bargain lol
I think the opposite. I wish we had rose on his deal for 3 more years.
Next year is gonna be real awful.
Money is just going to crazier...
I'm pissing my pants. Lakers fans miserable makes me so damn happy.
As others reported, the Joakim Noah-to-NY storyline continues. Looking like a four-year, $72 mil deal, assuming meeting goes well tomorrow.
I'm pissing my pants. Lakers fans miserable makes me so damn happy.
I actually got scared that they would land Derozan and dominoes would start falling.
Lol I was wrong.
.@ShamsCharania: Courtney Lee set to meet with Knicks on Friday morning.
Don't like the contract but it's a good fit.
Sam Amick @sam_amick
The Joakim Noah-to-NY deal isn't done, but I'm told the fourth year of the $72 mil deal - as currently discussed - would be guaranteed.
More a less a guy who shoots 3s and guards 1s and 2s pretty damn well. Not much outside of it but sticks to the two things he does well. Kinda too small to play the 3.
He's known to be a good finisher as well but I think that part of his game has eroded over the last few years. Or a change in role perhaps.
3 and d type of player, 40% 3 point shooter great fit next to rose and melo...
Will knock down that open 3 he will get a lot of off Melo doubles and rose drives...
A starting to of rose lee Melo kp noah if healthy will mesh very well in my opinion
I'm having a hard time figuring out what saving cap space really does for us. Unless they really think they can get Westbrook. Otherwise there's not much reason to save it if they have faith that rose will be the PG for the long term
The cap is going to jump again to 110 million and then may jump again..
Don't look at the number, look at the percentage of the cap and the starting salary will be less than lopez...
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Literally do nothing significant in FA than to sign Noah to this deal. So we basically gave up Lopez for one year of Rose. I thought it was for the Cap Space but to spend that space on an aging replacement coming off of significant injuries makes little sense to me.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what saving cap space really does for us. Unless they really think they can get Westbrook. Otherwise there's not much reason to save it if they have faith that rose will be the PG for the long term
I think this is the plan, both Phil and hornacek talked like they had a big 3 and we're looking for pieces to surround them..
Phil basically said they want rose long term as long as he stays healthy this year
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Give a breakdown of Courtney Lee's game? I'm very unfamiliar with him.
3 and d type of player, 40% 3 point shooter great fit next to rose and melo...
Will knock down that open 3 he will get a lot of off Melo doubles and rose drives...
A starting to of rose lee Melo kp noah if healthy will mesh very well in my opinion
Thanks man.
Its not the money, its the years and the fact that the Knicks continue making the same mistakes bringing in post-prime players for big bucks hoping things will get better.
OKC, MIN, ATL were among teams who contacted Lance Thomas. Galloway also heard from several teams.
Report: Warriors, Knicks, Spurs, Blazers among teams pursuing Pau Gasol
OKC, MIN, ATL were among teams who contacted Lance Thomas. Galloway also heard from several teams.
It seems like Hahn was right about the Knicks not being that interested in bringing back Galloaway.
When a description has to be prefaced with "when healthy" that doesn't insight confidence in me. I am an enormous Supporter of Phil. I have liked more of the moves he made than most, particularly because he has shown patience. But Noah is 31, coming off of a significant injury and a four year deal is just spending foolishly because the Cap is going up. 35 year old Noah making 18 mil is not going to help this team. I dont like the investment and I dont care that that one contract wont destroy the frnchise, it is still significant enough despite any rise in the cap.
I liked the move to dump Lopez for Rose because I thought we may invest the money saved wisely. Spending it on a player who is years older than Lopez, hasn't played a full season in two years and will be signing a four year deal is not spending it wisely. I dont expect either player to make it through this season.
We haven't been able to sign star free agents for years so why would that change with cap space next year? Especially if we continue to be a shitty team. The Knicks have to win games for us to have any shot at getting a guy like Westbrook. Noah is a far better player then Mozgov. What are we going to do sign guys like Mozgov to win the same amount of games as we did last year? Then next summer we are in the same place as befote. Nobody wants to play for a 32 win team, but if Rose & Noah plus a guy like Lee/Gordon can get us to 45-50 wins we might be able to lure a big name free agent to NY.
We have to make good depth signings. That's going to be vital to our success. In my opinion a starting 5 of Rose/Lee(Gordon)/Melo/KP/Noah is much better then Calderon/Afflalo/Melo/KP/Lopez
I've seen a lot of people that are worried about giving Whiteside that much money in fear that he will get complacent & basically stop trying. I think the same can be said for Dwight. Yes they are both better then Joakim, but they are going to make 7 million more per season. We know Joakim is going to give 110% on every play of every game.
He also has mutual friends with Dwight & he's heard the same thing about him from both NBA teams & their mutual friends. He flat out said Dwight doesn't care about winning. He said Dwight would much rather make a ton of money then win a gold ring. He said all Dwight cares about is making sure his family is set for life. Which is cool I completely understand that. I just wouldn't want him on my team.
What's not to like about a shooting guard that can't shoot?
These beat writers just want to beat each other to the punch.
These beat writers just want to beat each other to the punch.
Him and drose are very close and have known each other since high school, maybe he sold Phil on him
Gordon on the other hand would really piss me off. How many injury risks do we need. Unless he is coming super cheap like 6-8 per for a 2 year deal or an overpay on a one year deal I want no part of him.
I meant backup option, not a bench player.
On this team, you'd think he would get a bunch of clean looks. The form and all that is good.
Its either one or the other there is no wiggle room
Rose and Garden have a nice history once called The Eric and Derrick Show. Rose and Gordon were teammates on a Chicago-based AAU team, called the Mean Streets Express. Some still regard it as the best backcourt tandem in AAU history.
We just played well together, Gordon said in 2011. At that time, we just wanted to show people that were trying to be the best out there. We jelled together. We both played up-tempo games and loved to attack the basket.
Link - ( New Window )
Why should Gordon be any different then his back court partner or his C(insert 2014 for Noah)?
Mozgov isn't a great value but he's been a better player then Noah the last few years. Yeesh.
What was that about trading Lopez opens up more cap space with Roses expiring again? Lol
The contracts you see are just going to get bigger and bigger...
You have to look at percentage of cap rather than the actual number because soon ever player in a starting lineup will be over 15 million
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is ALWAYS hurt and hasn't been a good player since 2012. Pass.
Mozgov isn't a great value but he's been a better player then Noah the last few years. Yeesh.
In what world was mozgov better than Noah 3 years ago? Noah was 1st team all NBA. Two years ago Noah was a better rebounder, passer, and defender. So are you going by last year where Mozgoz was essentially benched to a guy who was injured all year?
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I don't want 4 years either so if there is a team option for the 4th year it becomes a little better...
I am just waiting to see how it's structured..
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
He was a top defensive center 3 years ago.
Your broader point is correct. He wants 4 years not two. Doesnt mean WE should give it to him. Let another team make that mistake. Notice how Noah isnt fleecing 4 years off the best run teams.
Knicks have sucked for a decade plus largely because everyone plans for the next year, maybe two years, with zero focus on the long term. Looked like Phil was reversing that, but if this offseason is 4 years for Noah and the Rose trade, I'll have to reassess on that.
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In comment 13016851 DanMetroMan said:
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is ALWAYS hurt and hasn't been a good player since 2012. Pass.
Mozgov isn't a great value but he's been a better player then Noah the last few years. Yeesh.
In what world was mozgov better than Noah 3 years ago? Noah was 1st team all NBA. Two years ago Noah was a better rebounder, passer, and defender. So are you going by last year where Mozgoz was essentially benched to a guy who was injured all year?
That's why I said he hasn't been good since 14, playa.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I thought it was jumping like 20M in each of the next two years, no? Wasn't the TV deal 9 years?
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saying that Noah is good for a 2 or 1 year deal sound retarded. The guy is a pro athlete looking to cement his last longer term deal of his career. He's 31. The back end of his prime. It's final paycheck time. His agents know this is his last hurrah. They're not going to waste it on short term deals so that idiotic Knick fans can feel good about their wiggle room.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
He was a top defensive center 3 years ago.
Your broader point is correct. He wants 4 years not two. Doesnt mean WE should give it to him. Let another team make that mistake. Notice how Noah isnt fleecing 4 years off the best run teams.
Knicks have sucked for a decade plus largely because everyone plans for the next year, maybe two years, with zero focus on the long term. Looked like Phil was reversing that, but if this offseason is 4 years for Noah and the Rose trade, I'll have to reassess on that.
The Noah deal is middle of the road. It's whatever. It's not the best or the worst. But, to pretend we can sign a proven vet to a cheap team-friendly short-term deal is ridiculous. He costs what he costs. He's better than Lopez. He's still reasonably young. You guys are acting like this is some A-Rod deal where he's going to be getting 18 mill to play on crutches in his 40s. The guy would be 35 by deal end.
The real questions aren't for this year anyway. I don't think Rose is the future of the franchise. I don't think he was brought here to be. Next offseason, to me, seems to be the most important point for our future. So long as Phil keeps us afloat until then, reserving our picks and shoring up the team with regard to that and bringing in a marquis guy, which he has been, we're not any worse off.
4 years hurts, but some part of this deal was going to hurt. If it breaks down to 15 or 16m per year, I think it could've been worse.
Quote:
and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I thought it was jumping like 20M in each of the next two years, no? Wasn't the TV deal 9 years?
This year is jump 1, next year is jump 2. For some reason it then goes down. I think there is a balloon payment next year or something. Next year is an aberration. i.e. 2018-19 will be higher than 2016-17 -- it is 2017-18 that is a one-off.
I think.
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
Give me Noah, Lee and some bench pieces and it will be a successful offseason for me.
If we get Gordon instead, well, at least for the 11 games where Rose, Noah and Gordon are all healthy, the Knicks will be pretty sweet.
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Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
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In comment 13016913 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
Their actions don't suggest they're that concerned with the future right now.
I can't assume they're banking on Rose to be the guy they're counting on long term. It would be highly irresponsible given his injury history and declined performance to make that part of their long term thinking. He's got to have at least one healthy year and play like a start to have that conversation.
You gotta sign the FAs that actually want to be here.
Quote:
In comment 13016913 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
It's not like Westbrook would be "alone". He'd also have an ascending KP to play alongside.
And if by some chance the Knicks can make the ECF in 2016/17, it's going to be a lot more enticing to FAs like Westbrook to join them.
Quote:
In comment 13016881 Deej said:
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and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I thought it was jumping like 20M in each of the next two years, no? Wasn't the TV deal 9 years?
This year is jump 1, next year is jump 2. For some reason it then goes down. I think there is a balloon payment next year or something. Next year is an aberration. i.e. 2018-19 will be higher than 2016-17 -- it is 2017-18 that is a one-off.
I think.
Thanks, I keep hearing conflicting things as far as this goes so I wasn't sure.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
^This. But Id pass on the 4/72 unless the last year isnt guaranteed. Unfortunately, thats the market. Look at what Mozgov got from the Lakers. Ridiculous.
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In comment 13016916 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13016913 giantsfan44ab said:
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Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
It's not like Westbrook would be "alone". He'd also have an ascending KP to play alongside.
And if by some chance the Knicks can make the ECF in 2016/17, it's going to be a lot more enticing to FAs like Westbrook to join them.
But if they're good enough to make the ECF in '16/17 doesn't that probably mean rose has a pretty good season? Then it would seem they would extend rose and fill out their bench with the cap space.
Yeah Westbrook wouldn't be alone with KP. But he wouldn't be alone with KD, Oladipo and Adams either. Maybe Horford too.
Rather see them put in a waiver claim for Jarrett Jacks at $6 mill
But if they're good enough to make the ECF in '16/17 doesn't that probably mean rose has a pretty good season? Then it would seem they would extend rose and fill out their bench with the cap space.
Probably, but even if Rose has a good season, why wouldn't you look to upgrade the team? Especially if you think the upgrade from Rose to Westbrook would get you over the hump.
Whether they sign Noah or not, I think the "attractiveness" of the Knicks next offseason will largely be based on KPs development. Does he *just* become a top 50 player or can he take a jump to become a top 25 player next season?
Centers everywhere are getting crazy money, but even with the higher cap, Noah is going to take a legitimate chunk of the Knicks cap for a little while and that contract is going to be very hard to move.
Who knows though... a few years ago he was one of the most valuable Cs in the league and was a fierce locker room leader. Maybe as he ages into his 30s he can regain his form and the deal could work out. Just seems like a wild gamble to me.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
Yes, Durant and Westbrook arent coming here. Doesnt mean you then resign yourself to bad deals. Make good deals. Wait the market out a little. Sign several Williams types on make-goods. Trade for a guy under contract who another team wants out of for cap room.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
Yes, Durant and Westbrook arent coming here. Doesnt mean you then resign yourself to bad deals. Make good deals. Wait the market out a little. Sign several Williams types on make-goods. Trade for a guy under contract who another team wants out of for cap room.
What Williams types? What trades? This is the NBA. Everyone who is not on a rookie deal or isn't a truly great player on a max deal is overpaid. The lesson from this ought to be that cap space is overrated and the best thing that Phil has done is not trade picks.
With that said, the team desperately needs competitiveness/ winning attitude and defense. Noah gives you that dynamic. He was DPOY and 4th in MVP in 2014.
Signing Eric Gordon or Courtney Lee for big money would be a disaster. Go bargain shopping for wings on short deals.
I'm hoping Noah's 4th year is non-guaranteed.
What Williams types? What trades? This is the NBA. Everyone who is not on a rookie deal or isn't a truly great player on a max deal is overpaid. The lesson from this ought to be that cap space is overrated and the best thing that Phil has done is not trade picks.
You dont target specific players. You see which player thought he was getting 15 per and only got offers for 8. Sign him to a 1+1 deal.
No one was talking about Williams coming here last year. Until he came.
Maybe. We probably think he's better than he is because he lit the Knicks up. However, he has bounced around a ton. Put up good numbers with inefficient shooting last year in huge usage. If he's not in a situation where there is no one else around him who can dribble, is he all that useful?
The fact that he got the deal and when he took it tells me it is likely fair. He jumped on this deal. Where was guardless Philly to top it? Why not wait until other teams' first choices sign?
Yeah, I don't understand how the Sixers w/all that money to spend let him leave for that amount.
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it me or is Ish Smith a "steal" in this market for 16 million?
Maybe. We probably think he's better than he is because he lit the Knicks up. However, he has bounced around a ton. Put up good numbers with inefficient shooting last year in huge usage. If he's not in a situation where there is no one else around him who can dribble, is he all that useful?
The fact that he got the deal and when he took it tells me it is likely fair. He jumped on this deal. Where was guardless Philly to top it? Why not wait until other teams' first choices sign?
If Austin Rivers is in line for 5 million then I'll take Ish Smith for the same rate any day of the week. I think most of BBI would be praising Phil if he signed Smith for that price. Maybe he was tired of moving around (he's been on 9 teams).
hes naba caliber just def not a starter type probably around the 11th man on a team
Smith isn't much. His claim to fame is being one of the fastest runners in the league. He can't shoot from range unless he's guarded by Jose Calderon.
Smith isn't much. His claim to fame is being one of the fastest runners in the league. He can't shoot from range unless he's guarded by Jose Calderon.
In this market 6 million in salary is almost "minimum" for a decent backup player.
Just because he's getting a lot of years doesn't necessarily mean the contract becomes an albatross. Noah is a worthy player this isn't some slob like Eddie Curry that has no business getting paid big bucks.
Wait and see...if it's 4...it's 4. Noah will be a fun guy to root for and just maybe the deal works out. No one plays the game harder and he is only 31.
What I see is the Knicks pursuing a big whose skill set matches what they want to do, and what they need from their center in order to do so. Yes, the dollars are a concern, but as many have pointed out, that's the market. What's the alternative? Pursue a big whose skill set doesn't match the scheme? How is that any less of a risk? If anything, that would be even more of a risk, IMO, because in that case, no amount of health is going to allow that player to be productive in the way the Knicks envision. At least with Noah, you know you're getting the big the team wants and that he should be effective as long as he is healthy, even if he still does have some injury issues going forward.
Is it ideal? No, but there are no ideal scenarios available that could actually happen. That's not to say they should be making moves for the sake of making moves; rather, it's just that some calculated risk is necessary in this market and for this team. I think we're seeing what basically amounts to the new foundation and going forward, depth and prospects will be added with cap space and draft picks. If Hornacek is the right guy, the talent will be developed from within while this new foundation gives the team a much needed competitive boost and hopefully creates a winning culture for the next wave of youth to grow into.
I almost feel like it's worth the risk even if you told me Noah's arms would fall off after year 3. I tend to think leadership can be overstated at times but that's only if you have in spades and your team is filled with vets. KP is priority one. The Knicks desperately need a guy just like Noah.
He's the backup PG. Likely better than whomever our backup PG will be this year, and is backing up a better PG than whom we have.
I'll take the optimistic view point here. It's all I got. And I always loved the guy's game but the last impression you have of a player is the one that sticks. Shoulders heal....hopefully.
The starting five does sound intriguing assuming they can get a back court stopper in there That team could come together and forge an identity. Man if KP takes another step this could be a lot of fun. Everything comes with a risk.
The team will still have cap room going forward.
If he takes the room exception. I am OK with it or even a vet minimum..
He can still score off the bench and with rose Melo and kp one of them is going to be on the court at all times
Exactly
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have "been in contact" with Jamal Crawford
If he takes the room exception. I am OK with it or even a vet minimum..
He can still score off the bench and with rose Melo and kp one of them is going to be on the court at all times
He flat out said $$$ is going to be a priority for him so veterans minimum aint happening.
He's not making the max and the cap is through the roof. Just tell yourself it's all about the leadership as much as it is Noah's actual game. HE will help KP.
It's 18, but no one is mad about the $$. The issue is the years for a guy who hasnt been productive in the last two seasons.
Rival teams starting to take Dwyane Wade's free agency seriously, w/ GM's telling @TheVertical they've made multi-year offers to his reps.
It's still a risk but it's not the risk some are making it out to be. If anything Noah might even be a bargain, which is insane to process but kind of true.
Just stay healthy in year 1 and take it from there. No brutal career ending shit...if he misses a month that's fine he'd still be well worth it.
I'll take 2015 Noah and be happy.
Rival teams starting to take Dwyane Wade's free agency seriously, w/ GM's telling @TheVertical they've made multi-year offers to his reps.
I wonder if Melo called Phil and said hey dwade is gettable let's really go for it...
At this point why the fuck not?
I don't care about the salary number for Noah. It's the years. 4 years is too much.
Gordon had arthroscopic surgery on both knees, tore labrum in left shoulder, and broke ring finger twice...yet 2 play 65 games in a season.
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KnicksTweets @KnicksTweets 40m40 minutes ago
With proper physical therapy Noah's shoulder injury will fully recover. Everyone should relax and embrace the pending signing.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
don't waste your time. If you had told everyone two months ago (or even two weeks ago) Noah was going to be the big "prize" these clowns would have laughed at you.
I'll take 2015 Noah and be happy.
20% of the cap for 7-9-1 with poor shooting isnt getting my dick hard. Assist numbers are nice. Im sure everyone will vouch for his defense. But the advanced stats reflect a massive fall off. PER down by 5. WS down by 6. BPM down. Down over longer term too. Though the advanced stats would justify the contract I think. If he produced that every year. But what are the chances he does? Guy is a declining player at 29 but turns it around at 31-34?
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over 3 years, it becomes hard to be angry at 15 to 16m for Joakim Noah.
It's 18, but no one is mad about the $$. The issue is the years for a guy who hasnt been productive in the last two seasons.
18 was being reported a day or so ago, and last I heard they were trying to play with the numbers to retain flexibility for this offseason.
But what is he? He's not a starting guard on a contender. IMO he's probably a 4th guard on a contender. So resign a guy for that money if you're capped out. But winning teams dont invest free cap space into a Lin like that.
Cant knock the Nets though. No reason for them to go rebuild without a pick until 2019.
But what is he? He's not a starting guard on a contender. IMO he's probably a 4th guard on a contender. So resign a guy for that money if you're capped out. But winning teams dont invest free cap space into a Lin like that.
Cant knock the Nets though. No reason for them to go rebuild without a pick until 2019.
Your last comment is the issue. The Nets can't play for the lottery so Lin is a solid "be decent" player and may yet represent a chip towards adding picks.
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Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @WojVerticalNBA 23m23 minutes ago
Rival teams starting to take Dwyane Wade's free agency seriously, w/ GM's telling @TheVertical they've made multi-year offers to his reps.
I wonder if Melo called Phil and said hey dwade is gettable let's really go for it...
At this point why the fuck not?
How would we even afford that?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
1. He only started 2 games.
2. He only played 29 games.
3. He was never a fit for Hoiball.
4. He was hurt all year even when he did play.
This is a guy who will give you 8-10 points, 9-11 boards, 4-5 assists and good defense if he is healthy. Very vaulable piece.
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In comment 13017132 DanMetroMan said:
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Adrian WojnarowskiVerified account @WojVerticalNBA 23m23 minutes ago
Rival teams starting to take Dwyane Wade's free agency seriously, w/ GM's telling @TheVertical they've made multi-year offers to his reps.
I wonder if Melo called Phil and said hey dwade is gettable let's really go for it...
At this point why the fuck not?
How would we even afford that?
At the rumored contract for noah knicks have roughly 18-20 million in space left, could clear a little more if they had to by trading oquinn or renouncing galloway
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
I don't get what that means. I don't speak twitter.
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JARRETT JACK @Jarrettjack03 5m5 minutes ago
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
I don't get what that means. I don't speak twitter.
People are suggesting he is mocking Jeremy Lin getting so much money.
1. He only started 2 games.
2. He only played 29 games.
3. He was never a fit for Hoiball.
4. He was hurt all year even when he did play.
This is a guy who will give you 8-10 points, 9-11 boards, 4-5 assists and good defense if he is healthy. Very vaulable piece.
Yes but djm said
"In comment 13017136 djm said:
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Noah was shaky and hurt last year but was very solid 2 years ago. I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. Two year ago Noah was better than Lopez and it's not even close. I don't want to hear about PER and all that crap. You can run the offense through Noah as the passing big man.
I'll take 2015 Noah and be happy."
2015 Noah at 4 years 72 is a truly AWFUL move.
Your last comment is the issue. The Nets can't play for the lottery so Lin is a solid "be decent" player and may yet represent a chip towards adding picks.
Right. No reason not to put out a good product, maybe get luck on a contract and have a trade chip. Or be better than expected, sign a better class of UFAs next year or the year after. Im a big Brook Lopez believer, if he can stay healthy.
Alex Kennedy @AlexKennedyNBA 1m1 minute ago
Jeff Green met with the Clippers last night, and took calls from several teams. As I said last night, the Magic called to express interest.
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from last year isnt the smartest thing to do.
1. He only started 2 games.
2. He only played 29 games.
3. He was never a fit for Hoiball.
4. He was hurt all year even when he did play.
This is a guy who will give you 8-10 points, 9-11 boards, 4-5 assists and good defense if he is healthy. Very vaulable piece.
Yes but djm said
"In comment 13017136 djm said:
Quote:
Noah was shaky and hurt last year but was very solid 2 years ago. I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. Two year ago Noah was better than Lopez and it's not even close. I don't want to hear about PER and all that crap. You can run the offense through Noah as the passing big man.
I'll take 2015 Noah and be happy."
2015 Noah at 4 years 72 is a truly AWFUL move.
I think he meant 2014-2015 Noah.
Alex Kennedy @AlexKennedyNBA 1m1 minute ago
Jeff Green met with the Clippers last night, and took calls from several teams. As I said last night, the Magic called to express interest.
Is the goal to have ever 4 player in the league? Ibaka, Gordon, and Green?
The problem for.miami is they can't add anyone else to their team if they resign wade, they had to use cap space to sign whiteside...
For Miami would almost be better just to move on from wade?
Wade, Middleton, Parker, Greek Freak, Monroe, Henson, Maker, Brogdon
me too. I would have preferred adding him to our core (instead of doing the Rose deal) at that number and then using the remaining cap space on wings/shooters.
Again, stop looking at the insane contract in a vacuum and look at all the contracts being handed out. Mozgov got nearly the same deal. Noah's making upper middle class money.
I agree. And if Wade takes the rest of our cap space, that's a good add. Yeah, the injury concerns and age. Dude can still ball. He's a winner, and people want to play with him. Not sure whether we can still max next offseason, but Melo, Noah, Wade, KP and Rose will tempt star free agents, especially older ones.
NBA players have a clear bias in that they dont hold age against superstars. It's a player blind spot.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Again, stop looking at the insane contract in a vacuum and look at all the contracts being handed out. Mozgov got nearly the same deal. Noah's making upper middle class money.
Again, stop looking at the money and start looking at the years. No one here is taking issue with the 18 million.
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Noah..
Again, stop looking at the insane contract in a vacuum and look at all the contracts being handed out. Mozgov got nearly the same deal. Noah's making upper middle class money.
Again, stop looking at the money and start looking at the years. No one here is taking issue with the 18 million.
or this.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
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that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
Stop it. No he isnt...haha
All of this is completely accurate.
That said, in this market, you're not getting him for 2 years, and your alternatives are Dwight Howard and a max deal for Horford.
A backup center got 4 years, 65m.
I like Noah for the attitude, leadership stuff he would bring.
Wade would be able to do a lot of that as well.
I don't think this is the same as the STAT move which some called just suggested as Stat was living in borrowed time with a much more serious injury history and he was getting the max for 5 years. Apples and oranges. Plus Noah is just a better player now than what Stat was after year one in NY, and he was overrated in year one.
"He is considering it and it's all up to him," the source said.
The two sides are starting to discuss a possible deal, according to The Vertical's Adrian Wojnarowski, but the source indicated Gordon is being courted by "over half the league."
I don't think this is the same as the STAT move which some called just suggested as Stat was living in borrowed time with a much more serious injury history and he was getting the max for 5 years. Apples and oranges. Plus Noah is just a better player now than what Stat was after year one in NY, and he was overrated in year one.
I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
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In comment 13017210 Semipro Lineman said:
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that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
Stop it. No he isnt...haha
He's not yet but $120M is warranted for a 23 year old who put up 17 and 15
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that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
I dont think he's quite that good, but absolutely max worthy. Top 25 for sure, maybe high teens. I'd have to start making a list.
I like Noah for the attitude, leadership stuff he would bring.
Wade would be able to do a lot of that as well.
Because you're only allowed to play with 1 basketball.
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In comment 13017210 Semipro Lineman said:
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that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
I dont think he's quite that good, but absolutely max worthy. Top 25 for sure, maybe high teens. I'd have to start making a list.
My point is, I wouldn't use his contract as an example of "look at the salaries!!!". For my money he's one of the very few legit "max" players.
If guys like Mozgov are getting X Noah should be getting a lot more.
I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
If last year or the last 2 years were viewed as an outlier, Noah would be getting max $$. 2013-14 Noah >>> Batum.
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If Knicks are trying to win now, may as well just get Wade.
I like Noah for the attitude, leadership stuff he would bring.
Wade would be able to do a lot of that as well.
Because you're only allowed to play with 1 basketball.
Oh thanks, useful comment. Wade brings a ton of stuff to a team like this besides just scoring.
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If Knicks are trying to win now, may as well just get Wade.
I like Noah for the attitude, leadership stuff he would bring.
Wade would be able to do a lot of that as well.
Because you're only allowed to play with 1 basketball.
Hey maybe Phil found a new way to play with 2 balls?
I'll take wade over lee and gordon
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In comment 13017210 Semipro Lineman said:
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that Whitehead will get close to a $100M, Dumonds (sp?) will get $120M from Detroit, Vladimir Putin received several Billion dollars from the Chinese government from Russia advanced space rocket technology, and that Blazemore is looking for a contract with $18M a season annual salary.
Prices are insane out there and Noel at $70M over 4 years looks cheap in comparison.
Drummond is a top 10 player in the league.
Stop it. No he isnt...haha
Age 22 season just led the league in rebounding (15 per) while scoring 16 per. He may not be top 10 yet but closer to top 10 than "ha ha" and worth max regardless of the the cap. Just not a good example of guys getting "silly" money. Mozgov is that, even Batum.
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I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
If last year or the last 2 years were viewed as an outlier, Noah would be getting max $$. 2013-14 Noah >>> Batum.
If he does fully recover from that shoulder, that injury could be a blessing in disguise. His knees and legs got a much needed rest (8 months?)
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I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
If last year or the last 2 years were viewed as an outlier, Noah would be getting max $$. 2013-14 Noah >>> Batum.
Deej,
He was horrible this past season. If the Knicks (or anyone else) felt 2015-2016 Noah is what he will be going forward he wouldn't have sniffed 72 million.
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In comment 13017225 kporzee said:
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If Knicks are trying to win now, may as well just get Wade.
I like Noah for the attitude, leadership stuff he would bring.
Wade would be able to do a lot of that as well.
Because you're only allowed to play with 1 basketball.
Oh thanks, useful comment. Wade brings a ton of stuff to a team like this besides just scoring.
Yeah age is one of them but shooting is not one. For what he's looking to be signed for? No, I'll pass
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In comment 13017236 DanMetroMan said:
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I think it's safe to assume all parties involved view 2015-2016 as an outlier. You don't often see guys going into their age 31 season suddenly lose all ability but it still is a concern until he proves otherwise. 2 years probably wasn't realistic but I would have praised that move. This seems like fair market salary at pretty long years.
If last year or the last 2 years were viewed as an outlier, Noah would be getting max $$. 2013-14 Noah >>> Batum.
Deej,
He was horrible this past season. If the Knicks (or anyone else) felt 2015-2016 Noah is what he will be going forward he wouldn't have sniffed 72 million.
Right. Im saying his value was set somewhere between "you're not the bad, 25 game player you were last year" and "you're not the 11 WS player you were 3 years ago". An obvious point I think.
Because they'd have to dump KOQ along with KP to fit him in.
What, do you think Miami hasn't tried to convince him to sign for around $20-22M per year? Why do you think he's considering elsewhere in the first place?
I understand he will be 23, and that he does some wonderful things. But how much better can you build a team around him when he makes max money?
Agree. Like Johnson too. Problem is that the team lacks the hardest thing to get -- a top 5-10 player at the 1-2-3. I like Drummond as a 2nd best player on a great team, Jackson as a 3rd best player, Harris, Stanimal, Morris, KCP are really nice 4th-7th pieces -- very good young/prime depth. That team needs a LeBron/Durant. Who doesnt. But to win a title, they need those pieces.
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They look pretty deep now. Meeks was out all year pretty much. They're essentially adding Smith, Meeks and Ellenson to last year's squad. Plus Johnson, Drummond, KCP and Harris are all still young enough to make big strides.
Agree. Like Johnson too. Problem is that the team lacks the hardest thing to get -- a top 5-10 player at the 1-2-3. I like Drummond as a 2nd best player on a great team, Jackson as a 3rd best player, Harris, Stanimal, Morris, KCP are really nice 4th-7th pieces -- very good young/prime depth. That team needs a LeBron/Durant. Who doesnt. But to win a title, they need those pieces.
And by giving out big money to the likes of drummond, harris, Jackson, will prevent them from doing that. They will have to give out big money for Pope to eventually.
This depends on what open look you're taking about. He is absolutely not a 3 pt shooter and there's no argument to be made for it. His prime best was 31%. He's now down to 28%, and he shot a miserable 15% last year.
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The point on Wade is, if Knicks are signing Noah, they are in NOW mode. What's the point to only half do it?
Because they'd have to dump KOQ along with KP to fit him in.
What, do you think Miami hasn't tried to convince him to sign for around $20-22M per year? Why do you think he's considering elsewhere in the first place?
The issue for.miami is they can't just offer him 20 million and fill out their roster...
They had to use cap space to sign whiteside so if they give wade what he wants they are capped out...
That is why he is looking elsewhere, Riley trying to get him to take much less
I understand he will be 23, and that he does some wonderful things. But how much better can you build a team around him when he makes max money?
The thing is his max this year will be about 22% of the cap next year which is pretty good. This is the ideal year to give your own RFA the max.
I was telling people last year that Drummond will be the best center in the league within 3 years. He hasn't done anything to change that.
But I guess towns did. Still, I think he has top 10 potential.
And thats why I think there needs to be a lockout soon. The salary cap is way too high, people exceed it too easily. I dont like where the NBA is heading.
Back story to NYK interest in @TheofficialEG10: played & had great chemistry w/@drose on an AAU team coached by Reggie Rose.
But we're not going to get Wade, so....
I understand he will be 23, and that he does some wonderful things. But how much better can you build a team around him when he makes max money?
guys who "aren't enough to take a franchise to the championship" get maxed all the time. Chris Bosh has been maxed 3 times. You win in the modern NBA by getting 2-3 guys like that on your team at the same time.
I understand he will be 23, and that he does some wonderful things. But how much better can you build a team around him when he makes max money?
Well I think he's good enough to be the 2nd best player on a championship, and has the potential to be the best center in the league. That's absolutely max worth. A view that there are only like 5-10 max players is wrong.
Also, your view of max over simplifies it. There are 3 max contracts. Saying Drummond isnt worthy of the max without that context makes little sense. A player his experience level can get 25% of the cap. A 10 year vet can get 35% of the cap. The difference is a deal starting at 23.25 million vs. one starting at 32.5 million. Drummond is eligible for 23.25 million. Next year his contract will rise to 25 million, which will be 22-23% of the cap. Or a little more than we're giving Noah this year (% of cap wise).
Cavs won with Thompson making 20% of the cap. Drummond >> Thompson. And Thompson is good. Love made even more as a % of the cap, and they still won.
But if they keep their corps together I can see SVG building his '09 ECF champion team in the east.
It's early, but what team would you take in the east post Lebron era? Detroit has their team under control and they are all between 20-25 right now.
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that would get foul calls down the stretch in close games.
But we're not going to get Wade, so....
I know. I was just noting how Wade is treated like Royalty and Melo seems to get ignored late in games.
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the problem with that thinking is that by that definition there is only like 6 max players in the league. Thats just never how this is going to work, we are always going to have underserving players getting max deals, its just a matter of how undeserving are there. Drummond is just barely underserving where as a Bradley Beal, Batum, Parsons, etc.. are extremely underserving.
And thats why I think there needs to be a lockout soon. The salary cap is way too high, people exceed it too easily. I dont like where the NBA is heading.
players are getting a much lower % of revenue compared to previous CBAs. If anything, the cap is too low. The problem is the ridiculous rules that govern the cap, max salaries, trades, etc.
And by giving out big money to the likes of drummond, harris, Jackson, will prevent them from doing that. They will have to give out big money for Pope to eventually.
Drummond, Harris, and Jackson are on very good contracts. They wont prevent anything. Those contracts are lures for UFAs.
players are getting a much lower % of revenue compared to previous CBAs. If anything, the cap is too low. The problem is the ridiculous rules that govern the cap, max salaries, trades, etc.
Right. Salaries got high because the cost of TV rights exploded. It's not like it's runaway inflation that is hurting the owners.
If anything it sounds like the players could strike when the CBA expires.
I would put roughly on 10-12 guys in the range of who should be getting the max. And none of them would be a center. KAT maybe the only one who would get it based he can actually hit a jumper. But what can you do. Lot of money being thrown around.
So you can overspend via bird rights or whatever to $111m, and then it's a $1.50 penalty for every single dollar over the tax threshold.
That by itself is pretty punishing, but I guess it could be worse
With NY?
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4 years 29
With NY?
Nevermind, I see that its with Orlando.
This is why you need to keep cheap depth like Grant. Because in a vacuum 7.5*4 for DJ isnt terrible. But it is cap clogging, especially if he regresses. You give out enough 7.5 million multi year deals for JAGs and what do you have.
On this market if both were UFAs, Lopez and Grant are prob getting a combined 25-30 million per on long term deals.
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Noah was shaky and hurt last year but was very solid 2 years ago. I'd take those numbers in a heartbeat. Two year ago Noah was better than Lopez and it's not even close. I don't want to hear about PER and all that crap. You can run the offense through Noah as the passing big man.
I'll take 2015 Noah and be happy.
20% of the cap for 7-9-1 with poor shooting isnt getting my dick hard.
Are there stats that DO get your dick hard? Or just the thought of Jerian Grant?
Are there stats that DO get your dick hard? Or just the thought of Jerian Grant?
I've already said too much.
Im actually not in love with Grant. There were guys on the board I preferred over him (particularly Justin Anderson and RHJ). But I thought he was promising. And I think teams are well served by giving their #1 picks 3-5 years to percolate.
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Are there stats that DO get your dick hard? Or just the thought of Jerian Grant?
I've already said too much.
Im actually not in love with Grant. There were guys on the board I preferred over him (particularly Justin Anderson and RHJ). But I thought he was promising. And I think teams are well served by giving their #1 picks 3-5 years to percolate.
I'm just busting your chops. I do agree with your take on the value of cheap depth. I disagree with you on Grant's ceiling, but in a market where NYK are looking at giving real dollars to someone like Austin Rivers (who is the definition of JAG, IMO), they'd be better served by having a homegrown cheap option there instead.
Ugh. Love Noah but four years guaranteed is a tough pill to swallow.
Cant we partially guarantee it and promise to make it up to him if we cut him. Give him a studio job. Here's 6 million. You're now running our French language programming.
that's fucking awful.
Cant we partially guarantee it and promise to make it up to him if we cut him. Give him a studio job. Here's 6 million. You're now running our French language programming.
Perhaps more importantly, it also runs past Phil's deal.
Win now baby!
Actually, the nature of this sudden emphasis on "build around Melo" reeks of Jimmy D putting the pressure on. In Phil's introductory press conference, he talked about building a lasting foundation. This is not that. Why the reverse course?
Knicks not even scoring a meeting with KD, as it appears, with Melo, Rose and one of the most promising young players in the league (#2 or #3 over the last 4 drafts combined, w/ Towns and Simmons). And y'all are writing us in for 57 wins.
Al Jefferson to sign a three-year $30 mln with the Pacers:
Al Jefferson to sign a three-year $30 mln with the Pacers:
Damn Larry making moves. No big player but they've added Teague, Thad young and big al so far. I like Ellis and Big Al off the bench, good scoring punch. Looking like a top 4 seed.
Why should I have any confidence that these picks will be retained if they traded away Grant after one season to land a fading star on an expiring contract?
No solace from still owning the picks. I think there was a commitment to build appropriately, and I think it went out the window. Maybe Melo and Dolan griped. I dont know. We went from asset collection to taking big swinging risks, and the timing of the switch in strategy makes no sense.
:(
Knicks not even scoring a meeting with KD, as it appears, with Melo, Rose and one of the most promising young players in the league (#2 or #3 over the last 4 drafts combined, w/ Towns and Simmons). And y'all are writing us in for 57 wins.
Since Phil had never operated in a front office capacity before, I'm going to go out on a limb and say he was brought here by Dolan to be a big game hunter (and to "change the culture" and all that BS). But if Phil can't even get a sit-down with some of the these guys (KD, Horford), what's the point? KD is taking meetings a 45 min helicopter ride from MSG, and we're not even on his radar.
WOW. Holy shit the west is gonna be no joke.
Well I think they are transitioning Turner to the 5, no? He's gonna be a big time shot blocker. Looks like they want to be a pretty fast paced team. Teague, young, PG, and Turner are fast movers.
Doesn't really bring anything that Holiday, Gallo can Thomas can't already provide.
Different injuries but we certainly didn't get any discount on Noah :/
Link - ( New Window )
Played pretty well in the playoffs. 13 and 6 on 51% from the field in 24 minutes per game
I understand. I personally don't like the per 36 either i just don't have much to go off of. Your def right, playing extended minutes changes a lot. I just feel his upside may be higher than gallo and i believe there the same age or a 1 year difference
Mahimi is a FA and it doesn't sound like this will take away minutes from Turner at all. Nate McMillen was going NUTS over how much he loves Turner. Said he's a future all-star, clone of Aldridge etc
WINNER!!!!!!! Well said robbie.
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Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon, Jo Noah, Melo. The Knicks are saving their max cap space for Dr. James Andrews.
WINNER!!!!!!! Well said robbie.
I didn't say that. I copied and pasted from a tweet.
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Have young, mahimi, and Jefferson to take minutes away from turner? Not sure how smart that is.
Mahimi is a FA and it doesn't sound like this will take away minutes from Turner at all. Nate McMillen was going NUTS over how much he loves Turner. Said he's a future all-star, clone of Aldridge etc
Ok that makes sense then. I didnt know Mahimi was a FA. I think Jefferson is more of a role player now. Good offensive player, not so much defensive player.
Turner and Young is an extremely atheltic frontcourt. Turner had some monstrous games last year, I would have hate to see him lose time due to logjam. He just has to stay out of foul trouble.
Young is their starting PF, Turner their C. Jefferson back up big. Mahimi is a FA but you can raise give Turner 30 minutes a game and have plenty of time for the other guys.
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In comment 13017606 robbieballs2003 said:
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Derrick Rose, Eric Gordon, Jo Noah, Melo. The Knicks are saving their max cap space for Dr. James Andrews.
WINNER!!!!!!! Well said robbie.
I didn't say that. I copied and pasted from a tweet.
You're a righteous dude. Thanks for pasting it in that case.
2017 is a big year for James Harden. Is he gonna remain a borderline joke or redeem himself?
2017 is a big year for James Harden. Is he gonna remain a borderline joke or redeem himself?
I think he will bounce back. Obviously, defensively will never be a strong suit. However, I dont like D'Antoni as the man for him. I think with Dwight gone, he will mature and take more of a leadership role.
He does have the potential to put up some insane offensive numbers though.
This is so good.
This. I feel like the NBA in general is the worst out of the major sports for false reports come FA time.
Mccullom
Parsons
Al-Minu
Howard
with Plumlee off the bench. Interesting squad.
Does Phil Jackson have a clue how to build a team?
And also will we have room to keep Rose, and add another Max? Or let Rose walk and sign 2 Max players? Do we have room for that next offseason?
Thank you experts.
Holy shit
Totally agree. I've been arguing with friends of mine who just fucking hate him all week... they completely discredit him as a player. He can absolutely be a dick and a babydude but the talent is undeniable.
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He also said the Knicks would get a meeting with Durant. We see how that went.
Does Phil Jackson have a clue how to build a team?
I'd have to say yes. Phil has more championship rings than Hahn has correct news. Idk why you are getting smart with me. It was a serious question. I've followed Hahn on Twitter for years & I don't remember him ever breaking a story.
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at least the Knicks have a lot of picks coming to them the next couple of years. They can restock the roster with cheaper guys soon enough. I hated losing Grant too but this time next year we will likely have a young player or two for the back court.
Why should I have any confidence that these picks will be retained if they traded away Grant after one season to land a fading star on an expiring contract?
No solace from still owning the picks. I think there was a commitment to build appropriately, and I think it went out the window. Maybe Melo and Dolan griped. I dont know. We went from asset collection to taking big swinging risks, and the timing of the switch in strategy makes no sense.
Don't live in fear. THe Knicks are operating more responsibly and have a better future than we've grown accustomed to. Ok they traded Grant. That doesn't mean they go balls to the wall and live in the now while mortgaging the future at every chance. I know we are all scarred by my god man...
Melo: .503
Noah: .392
Porz: .493
Straight up, that's nothing short of pathetic. The core 4 that BBI is getting erect over combined to shoot easily below 50% near the rim. Obviously you can blame injuries and KP being a rookie, but this is something to keep an eye on. KP's poor FG% near the rim is by far my biggest concern with his long term prospects. Noah has no ups anymore, his inability to convert near the basket is going to make playing PnR D against the Knicks/Rose easy. Just double the ball-handler and dare Noah to finish.
Melo: .503
Noah: .392
Porz: .493
Straight up, that's nothing short of pathetic. The core 4 that BBI is getting erect over combined to shoot easily below 50% near the rim. Obviously you can blame injuries and KP being a rookie, but this is something to keep an eye on. KP's poor FG% near the rim is by far my biggest concern with his long term prospects. Noah has no ups anymore, his inability to convert near the basket is going to make playing PnR D against the Knicks/Rose easy. Just double the ball-handler and dare Noah to finish.
Noah will burn you by passing it if you leave him alone. Plus he had 2 bad injuries last year, throw all his stats out the book.
Link - ( New Window )
And also will we have room to keep Rose, and add another Max? Or let Rose walk and sign 2 Max players? Do we have room for that next offseason?
Thank you experts.
No. I will go up by about $20 million, or ~21-22%. Then the year after it will be reduced. Next year's cap is a one off thing. Not totally sure why but I assume the NBA is getting a balloon payment under one of its media rights deals.
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In comment 13017646 Big Rick in FL said:
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He also said the Knicks would get a meeting with Durant. We see how that went.
Does Phil Jackson have a clue how to build a team?
I'd have to say yes. Phil has more championship rings than Hahn has correct news. Idk why you are getting smart with me. It was a serious question. I've followed Hahn on Twitter for years & I don't remember him ever breaking a story.
Not getting smart with you. My question was serious. Jackson won his rings with 2 great GMs (Rod Thorn and Jerry West)building the teams giving him loaded rosters. He never had to buy the groceries.
I really dont see how turner fits. He isnt a bad player, but he is an avg defender and shooter at best. Unless he is coming for like 5-7 mill less then i think he gets then i dont want him.
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In comment 13017537 djm said:
Quote:
at least the Knicks have a lot of picks coming to them the next couple of years. They can restock the roster with cheaper guys soon enough. I hated losing Grant too but this time next year we will likely have a young player or two for the back court.
Why should I have any confidence that these picks will be retained if they traded away Grant after one season to land a fading star on an expiring contract?
No solace from still owning the picks. I think there was a commitment to build appropriately, and I think it went out the window. Maybe Melo and Dolan griped. I dont know. We went from asset collection to taking big swinging risks, and the timing of the switch in strategy makes no sense.
Don't live in fear. THe Knicks are operating more responsibly and have a better future than we've grown accustomed to. Ok they traded Grant. That doesn't mean they go balls to the wall and live in the now while mortgaging the future at every chance. I know we are all scarred by my god man...
No, I think if Noah is really guaranteed 4 years, we now have two pieces of evidence of a win now mentality notwithstanding the long term implications of the move. I'll flip the script on you. Why should I trust the Knicks?
Stefan Bondy Verified account
@SBondyNYDN
Jeff Hornacek confirms Willy Hernangomez will join Knicks next season. Projects him as a center.
The other thing is that everyone's efficiency should improve as the offensive talent improves. And obviously the 3 vets there had injury issues last year.
Wat?
Basically Isola (Turner/Lee) against Wojnarowski whose saying the Knicks top perimeter target is Eric Gordon.
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The core 4 that BBI is getting erect over
Wat?
Most think this is now a team that could be the 2nd best in the East. That's getting erect.
A writer on WFAN nailed the Noah move. He made good points notably that fans get too invested in what happened with a player's past and assume or believe that these same things will continue to happen in the future. It rarely happens that way. Noah got hurt. It doesn't mean he gets hurt again and misses half the games over the next 3-4 years. The writer went on to say that Noah is a pro that has the respect of everyone in the NBA. No one prepares harder.
More than likely the truth falls somewhere in the middle. He will likely get hurt again and likely miss games. But to sit here and proclaim with certainty that Noah will be an injured disaster here is a stretch.
And here's another thing, maybe Noah is a shell of himself by year 4. And maybe the Knicks can still overcome that. He's the only long term deal on the books right now next to Melo. Teams can overcome a bad deal and the Knicks have resources to do just that and we may all look back and say despite the bad ending the contract was still worth it.
Or you could just convince yourself that the Knicks of 2005 are back and will only get worse. I disagree.
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In comment 13017711 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
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The core 4 that BBI is getting erect over
Wat?
Most think this is now a team that could be the 2nd best in the East. That's getting erect.
Try again. One or two HOPED that this team would be a top 2 seed in the east. Keep on digging.
Arc you said it's a terrible deal but this is not a terrible deal. It's a bit long, but it's far from an overpay, assuming these are the numbers.
Dare I say Noah might be a bargain. And he might stay healthy.
Think or hope? And does it really matteR? It's like some of you hate when fans get on board with a move. Sorry...just trying to keep my head above water here and cautiously hope for the best. Get on board or get off.
Ill say it again. This Noah deal isn't even in the same ballpark with Knicks moves of the past that blew up. For starters, Noah plays D. Second, It's not even a max deal. And lastly, they didnt' trade shit for the guy and they have cap room leftover today and next year.
This isn't even close to the Stat deal and most fans were like ehh fuck it, his knee will explode soon but the KNicks had to make a move. This isn't even close.
It also depends on who they get for shooting guard and backup point
It's all about KP's development. Noah helps the cause.
Pray he works out. Every move comes with a risk. This one is no different.
I still believe the KNicks haven't deviated from the plan of accruing assets and long term building even if they did deal away grant and sign a win now player. They still have a good future as far as economics and picks go. And now they might actually field a team that can win 46-52 games. Who knows.
Arc you said it's a terrible deal but this is not a terrible deal. It's a bit long, but it's far from an overpay, assuming these are the numbers.
Dare I say Noah might be a bargain. And he might stay healthy.
I don't mind the player I just hate the term. 4 years is too much for a dude who may be breaking down and plays the way he does. I just don't see this ending well.
I've already made peace with the move and I have accepted or allowed that Noah will suck ass in year 4. I can handle that as long as he holds down the center position in somewhat typical Noah fashion. And I believe he will.
Lopez used to get hurt too. Now Knicks fans are crying themselves to sleep because we lost this end all be all bargain at center. Noah is making essentially the same money and is a flat out better player, granted he's older.
A writer on WFAN nailed the Noah move. He made good points notably that fans get too invested in what happened with a player's past and assume or believe that these same things will continue to happen in the future. It rarely happens that way. Noah got hurt. It doesn't mean he gets hurt again and misses half the games over the next 3-4 years. The writer went on to say that Noah is a pro that has the respect of everyone in the NBA. No one prepares harder.
More than likely the truth falls somewhere in the middle. He will likely get hurt again and likely miss games. But to sit here and proclaim with certainty that Noah will be an injured disaster here is a stretch.
And here's another thing, maybe Noah is a shell of himself by year 4. And maybe the Knicks can still overcome that. He's the only long term deal on the books right now next to Melo. Teams can overcome a bad deal and the Knicks have resources to do just that and we may all look back and say despite the bad ending the contract was still worth it.
Or you could just convince yourself that the Knicks of 2005 are back and will only get worse. I disagree.
As one of our greatest 21st century presidents said, fool me, once shame on you, fool me -- you cant get fooled again.
bruh?
After this near 20 yr stretch of disaster, I'd be happy with a homecourt advantage playoff series. Let's get to "not shitty and getting better".
Austin Green Retweeted Stefan Bondy
Willy to NYK is official. Special offensive player, defense/athleticism will be problems. He needs a good mentor
(Seems like Noah is perfect for this role)
oofa.
I choose to remain hopeful that this current team wins some games, KP continues his growth into an elite player, the Knicks do well in next year's draft and bring in the right FA next year and beyond. I don't think that's an unrealistic hope.
The Knicks won 54 games with less talent than this one. The key to me is Noah and Melo. Rose doesn't have to be awesome just break down the defense and play close to 70 games. He did that last year. If KP plays like he did first 3 months last year this team can ball. I have no doubt.
Is Noah official?
Is Noah official?
Nothing is set in stone until the 7th. You can only get "agreed to terms".
Things are looking up. I firmly believe that. If the Knicks fuck us again so be it. I see better things on the horizon.
Then again I thought (hoped) Coughlin would save his job last year.
Following
Marc SteinVerified account
@ESPNSteinLine
ESPN sources say that Bucks have an agreement with Mirza Teletovic on a three-year deal worth $30 million
Greek freak going to the PG now? Middleton is more of a 3, but I guess he will be at the 2.
And I'm ecstatic that Noah will be here to teach our two young guys how to do it right. He's going to be an amazing role model. At worse, when Noahs contract expires, he at least gave our young guys a solid foundation on how to be a winner, for the next 10-12 years. That's invaluable, in unto itself.
Injuries not withstanding, I'm hopeful, excited, and looking forward to some great baling again at the garden.
Greek freak going to the PG now? Middleton is more of a 3, but I guess he will be at the 2.
Yeah he's the starting PG. He was beastly after the move to primary ball handler.
Why are you speaking so definitively? Minus injuries the Knicks can't compete for the #2 seed with the likes of the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, etc?
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But notthing about the East suggests we're not in the mix for a top seed even a #2 seed.
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Knicks with Noah and any of the rumored 2 guard options are NOT in the mix for #2 team in the East unless Rose suddenly is MVP caliber Rose again and/or KP is a top 20 NBA player this upcoming season. Let's be realistic here.
Why are you speaking so definitively? Minus injuries the Knicks can't compete for the #2 seed with the likes of the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, etc?
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But notthing about the East suggests we're not in the mix for a top seed even a #2 seed.
Why? Because 12 teams finished ahead of the Knicks last year. The 2 seed won 56 games. The Knicks barring Rose being amazing are not going to jump 11 teams and win 22ish more games sorry. Based on what improvement? Lopez and Noah is a wash. So Derrick Rose and say Evan Turner = the Knicks 2nd best team in the east? You realize they have something like 7 total players under contract right?
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Knicks with Noah and any of the rumored 2 guard options are NOT in the mix for #2 team in the East unless Rose suddenly is MVP caliber Rose again and/or KP is a top 20 NBA player this upcoming season. Let's be realistic here.
Why are you speaking so definitively? Minus injuries the Knicks can't compete for the #2 seed with the likes of the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, etc?
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. But notthing about the East suggests we're not in the mix for a top seed even a #2 seed.
The raptors won 56 games last year. I think we may be underselling how hard that is to do just to give ourselves some hope here.
Free agent Chandler Parsons is nearing agreement on a four-year, $94M max deal with the Memphis Grizzlies, league sources tell @TheVertical.
Free agent Chandler Parsons is nearing agreement on a four-year, $94M max deal with the Memphis Grizzlies, league sources tell @TheVertical.
Good luck with that one.
Celtics own Grizzlies unprotected 1st round pick in likely 2019. If this risky Parsons deal goes bad it will be good for Boston
Why? Because 12 teams finished ahead of the Knicks last year. The 2 seed won 56 games. The Knicks barring Rose being amazing are not going to jump 11 teams and win 22ish more games sorry. Based on what improvement? Lopez and Noah is a wash. So Derrick Rose and say Evan Turner = the Knicks 2nd best team in the east? You realize they have something like 7 total players under contract right?
I agree that the Knicks are unlikely the #2 seed, but modest improvement from KP should also be worth a win or two.
So just so I understand your point Dan, are you suggesting the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, Celtics are "elite NBA teams"?!
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Why? Because 12 teams finished ahead of the Knicks last year. The 2 seed won 56 games. The Knicks barring Rose being amazing are not going to jump 11 teams and win 22ish more games sorry. Based on what improvement? Lopez and Noah is a wash. So Derrick Rose and say Evan Turner = the Knicks 2nd best team in the east? You realize they have something like 7 total players under contract right?
I agree that the Knicks are unlikely the #2 seed, but modest improvement from KP should also be worth a win or two.
Sure and I'm expecting him to improve next season but 2016 the #2 seed won 56 games, 2015 53. The Knicks barring Rose being "old Rose" (or KP being elite) are not improving THAT much you guys can quote me.
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Knicks are bypassing "meh", and "mediocre" and "average" straight to "elite NBA team" with the addition of Noah and one of the available 2 guards? That's not being a pessimist. That's being realistic. If they win 9 more games next year.. that only puts them 15 winsout of the 2 seed... 15
So just so I understand your point Dan, are you suggesting the Raptors, Heat, Hornets, Celtics are "elite NBA teams"?!
In terms of win totals yeah the Raptors are elite. The Knicks are improving 20+ wins? Based on what? These other 45-50 win teams are getting worse as the Knicks get better? What did I miss? Pacers added more to their roster than we did.
Toronto, Celtics, Heat, Hawks, Hornets and Pacers (45-56 wins) all cease to improve/remain good but the Knicks rocket up to elite level (in terms of win totals) and are in the mix for the 2 seed.
Thank God it wasn't us.
Bayless can shoot and let Simmons dominate the ball while the PG of the future is presumably drafted next year with one of - the Lakers pick - the Sixers pick - the right to swap picks with the Kings
Toronto, Celtics, Heat, Hawks, Hornets and Pacers (45-56 wins) all cease to improve/remain good but the Knicks rocket up to elite level (in terms of win totals) and are in the mix for the 2 seed.
If the Hawks lose Horford/Bazemore/Teague.... they are going to be worst.
The rest of the teams are grinders, I dont see any of them with the potential to make noise in the playoffs outside beating each other up (which essentially happened this year). The Pacers are probably the team that improved the most out of the teams listed, but the Knicks ceiling is higher than anyone not named Cleveland.
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trying to understand an argument in which (lets assume everyone agrees the Cavs are the best team in the east)
Toronto, Celtics, Heat, Hawks, Hornets and Pacers (45-56 wins) all cease to improve/remain good but the Knicks rocket up to elite level (in terms of win totals) and are in the mix for the 2 seed.
If the Hawks lose Horford/Bazemore/Teague.... they are going to be worst.
The rest of the teams are grinders, I dont see any of them with the potential to make noise in the playoffs outside beating each other up (which essentially happened this year). The Pacers are probably the team that improved the most out of the teams listed, but the Knicks ceiling is higher than anyone not named Cleveland.
Who is talking about what they do in the playoffs? It was stated the Knicks would challenge for the 2 seed. I said that would only happen if Derrick Rose of 3+ years ago appears not the Rose we have seen the past 2. Obviously if Rose is fantastic and/or KP develops quickly the Knicks could "surprise" but that's where the Knicks "upside" lies. Considering the Raptors won 56 games and went deep into the playoffs I find it hard to accept the Knicks have higher "ceiling" unless we are talking the scenario I stated previously.
Hah, that's where you're wrong!
Sources on @TheVertical: After agreeing to $70M deal with Evan Turner, Portland aggressively pursuing Pau Gasol.
YES PLEASE
I don't think he's a traditional starting PG. Last year, he had a lot of success as a scorer off the bench.
I thought they were gonna match regardless of what he got. Maybe not with the money they just shelled out.
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is suggesting Lin got 36 million because the NBA is trying to promote the Asian market. C'mon if Bayless gets 27 then Lin at 36 is more than fair. Lin is not "Linsanity" good but he's a solid NBA PG.
I don't think he's a traditional starting PG. Last year, he had a lot of success as a scorer off the bench.
Has history with Atkinson which is why I'm so high on the move. I think he is going to prove to be "quite solid".
Toronto, Celtics, Heat, Hawks, Hornets and Pacers (45-56 wins) all cease to improve/remain good but the Knicks rocket up to elite level (in terms of win totals) and are in the mix for the 2 seed.
As of right now Dan, the Pacers is the only team that has definitively improved. I can easily make an argument that the other teams you listed have not and have all taken a step back.
So yes, I think the Knicks can improve 18-22 games. But I'll respect your opinion. Is it highly probable that the Knicks is the #2 seed next year? Maybe not. But it's not out of the realm of possibilities or unrealistic at all. Everything has to fall into place. We'll see.
Following
Zach Lowe
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Bucks are nearing a 4-year, $38M deal for Matthew Dellavedova, sources tell
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
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4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
better than Rose and Irving he says....
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4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
Are you ever going to shut the fuck up about Rose??
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In comment 13017987 Big Rick in FL said:
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4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
better than Rose and Irving he says....
Thats not what I said, but I guess simpletons who cant read cant be expected to understand such complicated concepts such as "metrics". Sorry if math scares you.
Atlanta, Boston, Blazers, Mavs among the teams involved
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In comment 13017992 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
In comment 13017987 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
4 years 38 million. That's fucking insane. One of the worst players in the league IMO.
you are absolutely incorrect about that. Cavs were better in the regular season with Delladova then with Irving, and in many metrics, Delladova was a way better player then Rose as well.
better than Rose and Irving he says....
Thats not what I said, but I guess simpletons who cant read cant be expected to understand such complicated concepts such as "metrics". Sorry if math scares you.
Awesome backpedal. How are your ball skills and tackling?
WS: 3.8/.4
WS48: .98/.009
BPM: -1.6/-3.3
VORP: .2/-.7
Orating: 109/96
D Rating: 108/110
RPM: .68(18th best PG in NBA)/-4.27 (77th best PG in the NBA)
Now can one of you absolute maroons tell me how Rose is so much better then Delladova but the metrics cant see it?
B-b-b-but Rose won MVP in 2011-2012!!!
WS: 3.8/.4
WS48: .98/.009
BPM: -1.6/-3.3
VORP: .2/-.7
Orating: 109/96
D Rating: 108/110
RPM: .68(18th best PG in NBA)/-4.27 (77th best PG in the NBA)
Now can one of you absolute maroons tell me how Rose is so much better then Delladova but the metrics cant see it?
B-b-b-but Rose won MVP in 2011-2012!!!
Honestly not sure if you're serious or not.
Every single front office in any successful sports franchise is DOMINATED by metrics. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean you should be afraid of it. Just because they don't agree with what you think you see(or don't because you don't watch every play from every NBA player), doesn't mean they are wrong.
How many basketball games do you watch a year?
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Delladova/Rose:
WS: 3.8/.4
WS48: .98/.009
BPM: -1.6/-3.3
VORP: .2/-.7
Orating: 109/96
D Rating: 108/110
RPM: .68(18th best PG in NBA)/-4.27 (77th best PG in the NBA)
Now can one of you absolute maroons tell me how Rose is so much better then Delladova but the metrics cant see it?
B-b-b-but Rose won MVP in 2011-2012!!!
Honestly not sure if you're serious or not.
100%. If you can prove me wrong, feel free.
ESPN sources say that New Orleans has a verbal agreement to sign Salomon Hill
He was confident he would clear 9 million per
Again- do you watch basketball? How many games did you watch of the Cavs and the Bulls?
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In comment 13018016 Sgrcts said:
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Delladova/Rose:
WS: 3.8/.4
WS48: .98/.009
BPM: -1.6/-3.3
VORP: .2/-.7
Orating: 109/96
D Rating: 108/110
RPM: .68(18th best PG in NBA)/-4.27 (77th best PG in the NBA)
Now can one of you absolute maroons tell me how Rose is so much better then Delladova but the metrics cant see it?
B-b-b-but Rose won MVP in 2011-2012!!!
Honestly not sure if you're serious or not.
100%. If you can prove me wrong, feel free.
Find a single coach in any basketball league that would give MD more minutes than DR. Feel free to use a powerpoint presentation of numbers to encourage them.
Why won't you answer my question?
if meaningful, is actually working in the Knicks favor, not against them. If they've already reached a general agreement and are waiting to announce terms for a specific reason it's most likely because they're trying to work on something behind the scenes with another player(s), trying to have the contract pieces fit together better.
So answer my question- how many games of the Bulls and how many of the Cavs did you watch?
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Stick the metrics up your ass! Use your eyes! They tell a lot. That is if you know the game.
How many basketball games do you watch a year?
I guarantee I watch a shit more than you do. I'll even put up posting on BBI between us if you wanna wager.
+1
And of course he totally ignores logic, he's such a a fucking tool LOL.
Copy my own tweets.
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In comment 13018021 Carl in CT said:
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Stick the metrics up your ass! Use your eyes! They tell a lot. That is if you know the game.
How many basketball games do you watch a year?
I guarantee I watch a shit more than you do. I'll even put up posting on BBI between us if you wanna wager.
Stay out of this dipshit, I'm arguing with someone way dumber then you for once.
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In comment 13018024 Sgrcts said:
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In comment 13018021 Carl in CT said:
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Stick the metrics up your ass! Use your eyes! They tell a lot. That is if you know the game.
How many basketball games do you watch a year?
I guarantee I watch a shit more than you do. I'll even put up posting on BBI between us if you wanna wager.
Stay out of this dipshit, I'm arguing with someone way dumber then you for once.
*than
Lets see- top 20 in NBA in VORP:
Value Over Replacement Player
1. Stephen Curry ▪ GSW 9.8
2. Russell Westbrook ▪ OKC 8.3
3. LeBron James ▪ CLE 7.6
4. James Harden ▪ HOU 6.9
5. Kevin Durant ▪ OKC 6.4
6. Kyle Lowry ▪ TOR 6.3
7. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 6.2
8. Chris Paul ▪ LAC 6.0
9. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 5.5
10. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 4.9
11. Paul George ▪ IND 4.6
12. Kemba Walker ▪ CHO 4.4
13. Al Horford ▪ ATL 4.1
14. Damian Lillard ▪ POR 3.8
15. Jimmy Butler ▪ CHI 3.7
16. John Wall ▪ WAS 3.7
17. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 3.5
18. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 3.5
19. Isaiah Thomas ▪ BOS 3.3
20. Gordon Hayward ▪ UTA 3.3
Seems like they are? Let me know why VORP is so inaccurate again?
You are abysmal with your "metrics" to try and prove you actually have some basketball acumen and are, "all knowing"
You do realize no one here agrees with you right? You're such a narcissistic troll lol.
Your usage of analytics has a striking resemblance to Jerry Seinfeld's father referencing his Wizard as a "tip calculator."
Having the the best tools to do a job means shit if you don't know how to properly use the tools.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
You are abysmal with your "metrics" to try and prove you actually have some basketball acumen and are, "all knowing"
You do realize no one here agrees with you right? You're such a narcissistic troll lol.
There are quite a few posters who agree with me here, and as always, I am open to anyone disagreeing with me and telling me why I'm wrong for any other reason but their "eyes".
mode=2&thread=537610&show_all=1#13018079]13018079[/url] Jon in NYC said:
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
Wait shit that didn't many any sense.
Abort. Abort.
mode=2&thread=537610&show_all=1#13018079]13018079[/url] Jon in NYC said:
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who think Delly is a better PG than Rose are the same guys who gave Aaron Rodgers a negative score on PFF for his 24-26 5 TD performance.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
Wait shit that didn't many any sense.
Abort. Abort.
Ahhhh neither did that! I'm falling into a spiral here.
*logs out of BBI*
*only returns when Knicks win 2020 title with KP as Finals MVP*
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played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
150% agree with you on this. The discussion started by someone saying he was one of the worst players in the NBA.
However- Rose did what he was asked to and he failed, so whether Delladova would have is only part of the story.
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Start another thread and quit hijacking this one.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
PFF does individual grading. All the stats I gave you are math based metrics. If you don't like one, sure, no problem. However, if they ALL agree, then you don't think that there must be SOME merit to them?
Otherwise they are flawed
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played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
Watch him ignore this post like he did with Aspanos last post.
If it doesn't fit his agenda, he won't argue with someone else's logic. His act has already gotten old. He's not worth the spit.
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In comment 13018024 Sgrcts said:
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In comment 13018021 Carl in CT said:
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Stick the metrics up your ass! Use your eyes! They tell a lot. That is if you know the game.
How many basketball games do you watch a year?
I guarantee I watch a shit more than you do. I'll even put up posting on BBI between us if you wanna wager.
Stay out of this dipshit, I'm arguing with someone way dumber then you for once.
Arguing with yourself?
You are comparing two players in two totally different situation. One guy who became a cheerleader for his team in the playoffs against a a player who had to do more for his team than Delly had to do for his entire career. Delly shot 40%, yes 40%, from the floor this year. His role was to stand in the corner or in the wing and wait for Lebron to find him, and then go play defense. When he was inept at that.... he found himself on the benchduring the playoffs.
comparing rose to matt fucking delladova is stupid.
Otherwise they are flawed
Shhhh you might scare some of them to start thinking.
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Ummmm, I work in data science. When doing any type of analysis, the first thing you're trained to do is look at the numbers and literally ask yourself "does this make sense?"
So let me ask you - look at the numbers that you're comparing. Do they make sense?
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In comment 13018051 Sgrcts said:
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played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
Watch him ignore this post like he did with Aspanos last post.
If it doesn't fit his agenda, he won't argue with someone else's logic. His act has already gotten old. He's not worth the spit.
I replied already, you dipsit. I'm not responding to Aspano because bringing up one metric in a different sport does literally nothing to my point.
Quote:
who think Delly is a better PG than Rose are the same guys who gave Aaron Rodgers a negative score on PFF for his 24-26 5 TD performance.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
PFF does individual grading. All the stats I gave you are math based metrics. If you don't like one, sure, no problem. However, if they ALL agree, then you don't think that there must be SOME merit to them?
Stats often times eliminate all context. As I mentioned before, advanced statistics work in baseball, where is usually a 1 v 1 contest. In basketball, when there are 5 guys working together and fit is so important, it's much more difficult. Do you realistically think any team would trade Derrick Rose for Delly right now? Even after the injuries?
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Wanna wager how many bulls game i watched/
And no, not everyone is agreeing with you, You have respectable basketball posters telling you, your logic is absolutely flawed you fucktard.
Quote:
In comment 13018051 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
150% agree with you on this. The discussion started by someone saying he was one of the worst players in the NBA.
However- Rose did what he was asked to and he failed, so whether Delladova would have is only part of the story.
If you're arguing that Dellavedova was more efficient in a limited role in his best season than Rose was in his worst season then ok. But really statements beyond that aren't supported by the metrics you chose.
Also, fuck Delly he's a dirty little cunt.
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In comment 13018079 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
who think Delly is a better PG than Rose are the same guys who gave Aaron Rodgers a negative score on PFF for his 24-26 5 TD performance.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
PFF does individual grading. All the stats I gave you are math based metrics. If you don't like one, sure, no problem. However, if they ALL agree, then you don't think that there must be SOME merit to them?
Stats often times eliminate all context. As I mentioned before, advanced statistics work in baseball, where is usually a 1 v 1 contest. In basketball, when there are 5 guys working together and fit is so important, it's much more difficult. Do you realistically think any team would trade Derrick Rose for Delly right now? Even after the injuries?
I would say it depends what you need for your team. A lot of teams wouldn't need Rose's skill set, whereas Delladova makes way more sense for them. A good 3 point, defensive shooting role playing PG can fit almost any team. A ball dominant poor shooting, poor defender maybe not as many teams.
Additionally, many stats don't eliminate context at all, but instead try to figure out what a players responsibility was in that 5 on 5 game. Maybe you are unfamiliar with them and should understand them a bit more before you attack them. Let me know I can send you some links.
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not a single one of you have been able to even remotely touch the actual topic. You just keep attacking me and saying "But my eyes".
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Wanna wager how many bulls game i watched/
I'm sure all of them, but how many Cavs games did you watch then?
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In comment 13018075 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
not a single one of you have been able to even remotely touch the actual topic. You just keep attacking me and saying "But my eyes".
Not a single one of you saw every single Cavs game and every single Bulls game or even 50% of each teams games. I'd wager some of you didn't see more then 2 or 3 of at least one of those teams, if not both outside of the playoffs.
Feel free to explain how Delladova is one of the worst players in the NBA and Rose is so much better then him though, or keep attacking me. I know the mathsandstuff is very difficult for some of you.
Wanna wager how many bulls game i watched/
I'm sure all of them, but how many Cavs games did you watch then?
Ill say around 15-20.
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In comment 13018087 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
In comment 13018079 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
who think Delly is a better PG than Rose are the same guys who gave Aaron Rodgers a negative score on PFF for his 24-26 5 TD performance.
Stats tell a story, but it's rarely the whole story.
PFF does individual grading. All the stats I gave you are math based metrics. If you don't like one, sure, no problem. However, if they ALL agree, then you don't think that there must be SOME merit to them?
Stats often times eliminate all context. As I mentioned before, advanced statistics work in baseball, where is usually a 1 v 1 contest. In basketball, when there are 5 guys working together and fit is so important, it's much more difficult. Do you realistically think any team would trade Derrick Rose for Delly right now? Even after the injuries?
I would say it depends what you need for your team. A lot of teams wouldn't need Rose's skill set, whereas Delladova makes way more sense for them. A good 3 point, defensive shooting role playing PG can fit almost any team. A ball dominant poor shooting, poor defender maybe not as many teams.
Additionally, many stats don't eliminate context at all, but instead try to figure out what a players responsibility was in that 5 on 5 game. Maybe you are unfamiliar with them and should understand them a bit more before you attack them. Let me know I can send you some links.
Unless a statistic has become sentient, it is impossible for a stat to determine a player's responsibility in a game. And don't gave me usage rate as some factor to determine a player's "responsibility."
@IanBegley
Guard Austin Rivers is scheduled to meet with the Knicks in Orlando at some point today, per league sources.
Have you ever actually discussed basketball once on any thread?
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In comment 13018074 Heisenberg said:
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In comment 13018051 Sgrcts said:
Quote:
played 24.6 minutes a game for the #1 seed in the East. I'm quite sure that means any NBA coach would play him and he's not close to one of the worst players in the NBA.
I wouldn't and didn't say he's one of the worst. But he's not a better player than Rose or Kyrie. If he were asked to do what Rose is asked to do he would fail miserably and his stats would reflect it. He's a role player. He's there to be scrappy and play dirty.
150% agree with you on this. The discussion started by someone saying he was one of the worst players in the NBA.
However- Rose did what he was asked to and he failed, so whether Delladova would have is only part of the story.
If you're arguing that Dellavedova was more efficient in a limited role in his best season than Rose was in his worst season then ok. But really statements beyond that aren't supported by the metrics you chose.
Also, fuck Delly he's a dirty little cunt.
Can you tell me how they aren't supported by the metrics? Again- the argument started by someone saying Delladova was one of the worst players in the NBA, and my point was his last season was a better season then Rose's. The metrics bare this out. Whether you think that is predictive or not is a different discussion.
He had to take a discount because of Google.
Of course they didn't match. LeBron's eye test on his own court, tells you all you need to know.. But shhh...don't tell Sgrcts that.. it's all about his metrics lol.
I bleed orange and blue for life, always will, but you already knew that.
Every thread now turns into this, he may not be a knicks hater but he sure hates them now
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not involved in this argument nor do I want to be but I don't think it's fair to characterize Sgts as some Knick hater.
Every thread now turns into this, he may not be a knicks hater but he sure hates them now
How am I a Knicks hater or how did I even turn this thread into that? I made a point about Delladova and used Rose to reference that. Its all you sensitive pussies who got your panties in a bunch and are completely against critical thinking.
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In comment 13018123 DanMetroMan said:
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not involved in this argument nor do I want to be but I don't think it's fair to characterize Sgts as some Knick hater.
Every thread now turns into this, he may not be a knicks hater but he sure hates them now
How am I a Knicks hater or how did I even turn this thread into that? I made a point about Delladova and used Rose to reference that. Its all you sensitive pussies who got your panties in a bunch and are completely against critical thinking.
I'm not arguing with your but every post you make now brings up how much you hate rose, we get it you hate the trade, but guess what it's over, you say the same thing in every single thread...
Most of you other losers cant be bothered to even understand what you're arguing against to make a counter argument.
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In comment 13018123 DanMetroMan said:
Did GM LeBron use your version of "critical thinking" when he and the front office made their determination, and allowed him to walk. You fucking moron.
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not involved in this argument nor do I want to be but I don't think it's fair to characterize Sgts as some Knick hater.
Every thread now turns into this, he may not be a knicks hater but he sure hates them now
How am I a Knicks hater or how did I even turn this thread into that? I made a point about Delladova and used Rose to reference that. Its all you sensitive pussies who got your panties in a bunch and are completely against critical thinking.
I'm not arguing with your but every post you make now brings up how much you hate rose, we get it you hate the trade, but guess what it's over, you say the same thing in every single thread...
Where did I say I hate Rose in this thread?
It wouldn't matter when they announce it though, they can announce it and still play any other cap games after that. Just matters when he signs.
Cool story, how many did Rose average this playoffs?
(yes I know he plays on Lebrons team, but I guess my point will go over your head anyway.)
by the way, do you know how many times this season you went off on Rose sucking in NBA threads?
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They aren't announcing Noah because they have the option of using some of that money.
It wouldn't matter when they announce it though, they can announce it and still play any other cap games after that. Just matters when he signs.
I get that nothing is final until 7/7, but why else wouldn't they announce the deal, unlike every other deal in the league?
Yeah that's what I'm thinking, like Dallas did with matthews...
No reason for agent not to release numbers
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he averaged 24.6 minutes per game in the regualr season - he didnt reach that once in the playoffs.
Cool story, how many did Rose average this playoffs?
(yes I know he plays on Lebrons team, but I guess my point will go over your head anyway.)
by the way, do you know how many times this season you went off on Rose sucking in NBA threads?
Cmon, dep goes off on his mother if dinner isn't hot enough. You can't use that.
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In comment 13018145 Keith said:
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They aren't announcing Noah because they have the option of using some of that money.
It wouldn't matter when they announce it though, they can announce it and still play any other cap games after that. Just matters when he signs.
I get that nothing is final until 7/7, but why else wouldn't they announce the deal, unlike every other deal in the league?
Most likely the final #s aren't totally agreed on, because announcing a deal doesn't impact your cap space at all.
And I was very critical of Rose early on the year when he wasnt playing well, I am not denying it one bit. I hated when he settled for shooting nothing but 3s. But as the year went on, I made many, many posts on how he was playing better, because he was playing better.
And I was very critical of Rose early on the year when he wasnt playing well, I am not denying it one bit. I hated when he settled for shooting nothing but 3s. But as the year went on, I made many, many posts on how he was playing better, because he was playing better.
I dunno, not comparing him to Lebron but Greek Freak can replicate much of what Lebron does when he's dominating the ball.
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In comment 13018149 dep026 said:
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he averaged 24.6 minutes per game in the regualr season - he didnt reach that once in the playoffs.
Cool story, how many did Rose average this playoffs?
(yes I know he plays on Lebrons team, but I guess my point will go over your head anyway.)
by the way, do you know how many times this season you went off on Rose sucking in NBA threads?
Cmon, dep goes off on his mother if dinner isn't hot enough. You can't use that.
Unlike sgrcts, I dont live with my mom anymore. Plus my wife doesnt cook anyways.
Link - ( New Window )
And I was very critical of Rose early on the year when he wasnt playing well, I am not denying it one bit. I hated when he settled for shooting nothing but 3s. But as the year went on, I made many, many posts on how he was playing better, because he was playing better.
Thats probably true but Bucks have a pretty talented offensive team and can def use his defense.
Also, when it comes to Rose I would listen to your "eyes" because you actually watch him. Thats pretty much my point- the eye test is not a real test if you've seen a guy play 100 minutes in a season. Even at that, the best way to judge a player is eye test + stats, because if they tell you the same thing then they're letting you know your judgement based off one or the other is correct. If they clash, then you have to figure out either what your eyes are missing or what the metrics are.
Again, to use Heisenberg example, Rose was asked to do a lot, and maybe he was miscast in that role and will benefit greatly from having different guys around him. To your point, Delly was getting a ton of open looks by having Lebron on his team. Combining the two ways of looking at sports is the only way to truly judge a player though.
Unlike sgrcts, I dont live with my mom anymore. Plus my wife doesnt cook anyways.
I'm married with twin girls and am a brand new proud homeowner here in Forest Hills, so there=).
Lebron is the greatest. Not only did he win a championship for Cleveland but all his scrubs are now getting paid by other teams just for the mere fact that they shared a locker room with him. You put Galloaway with Lebron I bet he would command a $80 million contract.
Da King. Nuff said.
He's terrible. Career 40% from the field, 32% from 3 with a 9.7 PER
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will be getting as many open looks on the Bucks without Lebron creating open looks..
And I was very critical of Rose early on the year when he wasnt playing well, I am not denying it one bit. I hated when he settled for shooting nothing but 3s. But as the year went on, I made many, many posts on how he was playing better, because he was playing better.
Thats probably true but Bucks have a pretty talented offensive team and can def use his defense.
Also, when it comes to Rose I would listen to your "eyes" because you actually watch him. Thats pretty much my point- the eye test is not a real test if you've seen a guy play 100 minutes in a season. Even at that, the best way to judge a player is eye test + stats, because if they tell you the same thing then they're letting you know your judgement based off one or the other is correct. If they clash, then you have to figure out either what your eyes are missing or what the metrics are.
Again, to use Heisenberg example, Rose was asked to do a lot, and maybe he was miscast in that role and will benefit greatly from having different guys around him. To your point, Delly was getting a ton of open looks by having Lebron on his team. Combining the two ways of looking at sports is the only way to truly judge a player though.
I dont think anyone realizes how much of a mess the Bulls were last year. Rose/Noah HATED Butler and Hoiberg. It went as far as Noah not even showing up to rehab with the Bulls because he hated Butler. Butler wanted to be the stud, main guy. And he was the best Bull - but it cause da lot of dissention. Rose and Butler both played better when the other was out. And the Bulls were so horrendously bad at defensive last year (yes sgrcts, I admit Rose isnt a great defender) but you have to realize that guys like Mcdemott, Mirotic, Gasol, and Portis were just as bad. So using advanced stats on a Bulsl team where everyone was hurt, there was no cohesion, and there were a lot of guys on the team who didnt like each other. It led to ugly ass basketball.
So as far as Rose. Yes, he will never be an MVP again. He may never be an all-star, even though I believe he can be. However, he has never played with two guy like a melo and KP. Melo will instantly be the best scorer, jump shooter he has played with. That alone will increase his assist numbers. Plus the relationship Rose and Noah have is amazing. Noah would do anything for Rose.
Like I said, it wouldnt shock me to see rose go for 16-17 a game with 7-8 assists a game with 45-46% shooting since he doesnt have to carry the load offensively with Melo there.
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Unlike sgrcts, I dont live with my mom anymore. Plus my wife doesnt cook anyways.
I'm married with twin girls and am a brand new proud homeowner here in Forest Hills, so there=).
No wonder why you are on edge. twin girls. Shit, my little girl keeps me going all day.
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Are so many against the Austin Rivers signing. I havent watched him wnough, but is he really that much worse than typical NBA PG's?? Is there an available back up PG to get excited about?
He's terrible. Career 40% from the field, 32% from 3 with a 9.7 PER
Hornacek project on the cheap.
Link - ( New Window )
So is he wrong. Full body of work, was Delly necessarily worse than Rose in 2015-16? It's debatable. It's not laughable to raise the point. You gonna shoot 42% on high volume and sport a 4.7:2.7 ratio as a 32 mpg PG, you're going to be open to questions about just how effective you really were. If you're traded for Lopez and Grant and so many fans from your new team basically write off the give as no biggie, it raises questions too.
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In comment 13018177 NJGiantFan84 said:
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Are so many against the Austin Rivers signing. I havent watched him wnough, but is he really that much worse than typical NBA PG's?? Is there an available back up PG to get excited about?
He's terrible. Career 40% from the field, 32% from 3 with a 9.7 PER
Hornacek project on the cheap.
Doesn't sound so cheap. Supposedly looking for 5 million per. I also take a bit of an issue with the idea Hornacek can turn turds into gold (and I liked the hire) but Rivers sucked in NO, sucked with his dad in LA and isn't a good defensive player. He's also terrible at the FT line for a PG so you don't even want him out there late.
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In comment 13018177 NJGiantFan84 said:
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Are so many against the Austin Rivers signing. I havent watched him wnough, but is he really that much worse than typical NBA PG's?? Is there an available back up PG to get excited about?
He's terrible. Career 40% from the field, 32% from 3 with a 9.7 PER
Hornacek project on the cheap.
I'd sort of hope that Doc Rivers' son's problem after 4 seasons in the league is not related to the coaching he's gotten. I certainly wouldnt bet on it.
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In comment 13018166 dep026 said:
I dont think anyone realizes how much of a mess the Bulls were last year. Rose/Noah HATED Butler and Hoiberg. It went as far as Noah not even showing up to rehab with the Bulls because he hated Butler. Butler wanted to be the stud, main guy. And he was the best Bull - but it cause da lot of dissention. Rose and Butler both played better when the other was out. And the Bulls were so horrendously bad at defensive last year (yes sgrcts, I admit Rose isnt a great defender) but you have to realize that guys like Mcdemott, Mirotic, Gasol, and Portis were just as bad. So using advanced stats on a Bulsl team where everyone was hurt, there was no cohesion, and there were a lot of guys on the team who didnt like each other. It led to ugly ass basketball.
So as far as Rose. Yes, he will never be an MVP again. He may never be an all-star, even though I believe he can be. However, he has never played with two guy like a melo and KP. Melo will instantly be the best scorer, jump shooter he has played with. That alone will increase his assist numbers. Plus the relationship Rose and Noah have is amazing. Noah would do anything for Rose.
Like I said, it wouldnt shock me to see rose go for 16-17 a game with 7-8 assists a game with 45-46% shooting since he doesnt have to carry the load offensively with Melo there.
Again, all that is valid. I personally don't see it mostly because I am not sure Rose is really willing to change his role in the NBA. Butler might not be the scorer Melo is, but he's a better player at this stage in their careers. Does the move to NYC change his ego enough that he's willing to step back and let Melo and KP be the guiding factors in this team? More importantly, has he developed the skills that will carry him now that his athleticism isn't what it was? I don't see it, but the argument for the trade is the one you put forth.
However- it does nothing to dispute what the advanced stats said last year about their plays ultimately.
Giants, I had to check my scorecard too; only their hairdresser knows
So is he wrong. Full body of work, was Delly necessarily worse than Rose in 2015-16? It's debatable. It's not laughable to raise the point. You gonna shoot 42% on high volume and sport a 4.7:2.7 ratio as a 32 mpg PG, you're going to be open to questions about just how effective you really were. If you're traded for Lopez and Grant and so many fans from your new team basically write off the give as no biggie, it raises questions too.
Deej, prepare to duck. Not only are you agreeing with me, you're using STATS to do so. Blasphemous!
Sidebar what kind of law do you do?
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Delly is better than Rose. It is that Delly arguably played better than Rose last season and the advanced stats were given to back that up. Remember Rose's terrible start which was apparently due to injury? Well that start is factored in to his stats.
So is he wrong. Full body of work, was Delly necessarily worse than Rose in 2015-16? It's debatable. It's not laughable to raise the point. You gonna shoot 42% on high volume and sport a 4.7:2.7 ratio as a 32 mpg PG, you're going to be open to questions about just how effective you really were. If you're traded for Lopez and Grant and so many fans from your new team basically write off the give as no biggie, it raises questions too.
Deej, prepare to duck. Not only are you agreeing with me, you're using STATS to do so. Blasphemous!
Sidebar what kind of law do you do?
corporate & securities litigation
One other note to make aware of aware of. Rose in the open court was still pretty sweet last year. He didnt dunk or finish like he used too, but he is still faster/stronger than majority of guards in the league. The problem was he didnt get as many opportunities due to the other team scoring so much and the bulls not forcing as many TOs.
With KP and Noah and a defensive 2 guard..... Knicks should be better defensively and create easier opportunities for rose in the open floor.
How about Gerald Henderson? Sandpaper defender. Came in and couldnt shoot. Has gotten better and better. Last year shot 35.3% from 3. I think he has upside. Lower end 3&D guy who I think could really move into the very good 3&D camp. Dukie. Corner 3 guy, but we have two forwards who can take the tougher 3s.
Really think we need to spread the wealth. Henderson at SG and then Thomas, Galloway, Hernangomez is the start of a decent bench that can really defend the 1-4.
How about you eat a dick, maybe with some hot sauce on it?
How about Gerald Henderson? Sandpaper defender. Came in and couldnt shoot. Has gotten better and better. Last year shot 35.3% from 3. I think he has upside. Lower end 3&D guy who I think could really move into the very good 3&D camp. Dukie. Corner 3 guy, but we have two forwards who can take the tougher 3s.
He's on the older side for an upside play, but agreed that we need as many playable bodies as we can. I don't think Lee is good enough that he's better then playing for depth and hoping for the best.
Link - ( New Window )
How about Gerald Henderson? Sandpaper defender. Came in and couldnt shoot. Has gotten better and better. Last year shot 35.3% from 3. I think he has upside. Lower end 3&D guy who I think could really move into the very good 3&D camp. Dukie. Corner 3 guy, but we have two forwards who can take the tougher 3s.
I actually like the idea of Henderson. He is a solid player, and he is about at that age where you see a lot of these 3 and D type guys start to "get it." Definitely think he would be a good get and would probably come cheaper than some of the other names floated.
A few reasons why I think wade is leaving...
1 heat are capped out after signing wade...
2 they are still meeting with durant which means it is Durant or wade, I think that pissed off wade...
3 Noah's terms not announced, he announced he is signing but no reason for his agent not to release terms unless there is wiggle room for another player...
4 knicks are going for it So if wade is really available why not just really go for it and bring in wade if he is truly available?
It is just way to quiet, I think Phil and Melo are working on getting wade...
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and try to build more of a bench. Seems pretty necessary given the starters as 1, 3, 4, and 5.
How about Gerald Henderson? Sandpaper defender. Came in and couldnt shoot. Has gotten better and better. Last year shot 35.3% from 3. I think he has upside. Lower end 3&D guy who I think could really move into the very good 3&D camp. Dukie. Corner 3 guy, but we have two forwards who can take the tougher 3s.
He's on the older side for an upside play, but agreed that we need as many playable bodies as we can. I don't think Lee is good enough that he's better then playing for depth and hoping for the best.
See Lopes' point about 3 & D guys developing later. E.g. Carroll broke out in his age 27 season.
That's the thing about these 3 and D guys. They tend to be late bloomers. If you're doing it at age 23, you're probably going to end up as more than a 3 and D guy.
Henderson, depending on what you can get him for, has contract upside. It's not clear that Lee at 15 or more million will have contract upside.
Agreed. Holy hell is it tough to skim this thread to see what's going on.
They can't "announce" anything until July 7.
Where have they been formally announced? No team that made a signing has anything on their official social media.
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Multiple sources have reported deals. Cleveland.com, Woj, other writers. There are exact parameters of deals. Regarding Noah....
Joakim Noah posted a picture on his Instagram of himself wearing a Knicks hat.
It's a lock that Noah will be joining the Knicks, but we're still waiting on official confirmation. For what it's worth, the last report from The Vertical indicated that he could receive a four-year, $70 million deal. This would be a great spot for Noah's fantasy value as he would immediately become the Knicks' starting center. Jul 1 - 3:19 PM
There are no concrete numbers. It's "estimates" or "could be" or something else not exact.
Damn. Never been a fan of Rudy Gay (at least his perceived usefulness) but that would be a good fit.
Assuming no major players traded
Teague/Stuckey
George/Ellis
Gay/miles
Young
Turner/Big Al
That team would be 9 deep
Where are you seeing details of contract structures? All I see is "agreed to X years at Y dollars".
Dwight Howard is going home. Hawks will pay him $70.5 million over the next 3 years. (Y!)
This. Exactly. I've been trying to read these threads since Rose was traded for, and all I see is this guy whining, bitching, moaning and complaining. Ok, we get it. You hate Rose. And because you hate Rose, you hate every move the Knocks will ever make afterwards. And, we also get it, that you feel every player on the planet that plays for other teams is awesome while every player on the Knicks sucks balls. Now, like Robbie said, can you please shut the fuck up? You're ruining these threads. I understand that Knicks fans are programmed to be negative. But hasn't this team put us through enough? We need to be trolled by our fellow fans too? Just take your negativity somewhere else for fucks sake.
Dwight Howard is going home. Hawks will pay him $70.5 million over the next 3 years. (Y!)
Wow. Not saying Howard is better than Horford but that might be a better fit for Atlanta. They got absolutely dominated by true centers on the boards and in the paint. If they can retain Bazemore (or pull another fringe NBA player to fill that role out of their ass, yet again) they should continue to be in the middle of the pack in the east.
Also means Horford is out, OKC could take advantage of it now
A Westbrook-Oladipo-Durant-Horford-Adams team would be a lot of fun.
When they went out and signed Stoudemire, we didn't get real numbers until the day of the press conference. It was just "max contract".
Same for when they re-signed melo. It took a while to learn that he didn't actually take 100% of the money he could have.
Jul 5, 2010 at 1:00a ET
The New York Knicks and Amar'e Stoudemire have agreed to a five-year deal worth about $100 million.
http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/New-York-Knicks-Amare-Stoudemire-deal-070510
Jul 14, 2014
I.E. Carmelo Anthony will remain in the Big Apple, re-signing with the Knicks on a five-year contract reportedly worth at least $120 million.
http://www.si.com/nba/2014/07/12/carmelo-anthony-new-york-knicks-contract-agreement
+1000
No he didn't.
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in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
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In comment 13018272 Lopes1984 said:
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in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
So true. A non-Knicks fan can just scan this thread to see how far low the bar has been Set now.
Good for him.
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In comment 13018309 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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In comment 13018272 Lopes1984 said:
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in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
So true. A non-Knicks fan can just scan this thread to see how far low the bar has been Set now.
It's weird. Some of the same people are very, VERY critical and discerning about the Giants. A team that's actually won championships this century.
@WindhorstESPN
Dwyane Wade is in contract talks with the Knicks & Bucks and could schedule meetings next week, sources told ESPN.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
Umm...
The Spurs got Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, George Hill (who they eventually flipped for Kawhi Leonard), and Thiago Splitter without a 1st round pick higher than 25. They signed Danny Green off of the scrap heap.
Wait.
@WindhorstESPN
Dwyane Wade is in contract talks with the Knicks & Bucks and could schedule meetings next week, sources told ESPN.
I knew it
If money is close have to assume he chooses knicks
Ramona Shelburne Retweeted Brian Windhorst
Said a source close to Wade, "He wants to be compensated for his pay cuts"
Wait.
Lmao
Then go down line to next year. You got Melo and Wade. One of their amigos, ache is Paul is a FA in 2017. Could be Phil's master plan
For real, we don't need a shooting guard that can't shoot from range, and we already have Carmelo for hero ball time.
Ramona Shelburne Retweeted Brian Windhorst
Said a source close to Wade, "He wants to be compensated for his pay cuts"
The problem for the heat is if they pay wade they are capped out and their team is worse than last year and Riley wants to wait so basically they told wade we want to meet Durant first...
After signing whiteside they only have so much money to give him
For real, we don't need a shooting guard that can't shoot from range, and we already have Carmelo for hero ball time.
Ehh if knicks are going to go for it for the next 3 years might as well really go for it
He did it last year, and got $20m for his trouble. I think it was the Bulls he used for leverage last season.
Of course he is. He's pulling a Grant Hill.
The heat only have so much money to give him, Heat are basically capped out and whiteside kind of screwed that for them because they couldn't go over the cap to sign him
Fossilized Wade is still way better than Courtney Lee
Eric Gordon expected to finalize a deal tonight, down to New York and Memphis, source says.
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assuming they don't make an offer good enough he might seriously accept.
For real, we don't need a shooting guard that can't shoot from range, and we already have Carmelo for hero ball time.
Ehh if knicks are going to go for it for the next 3 years might as well really go for it
I pretty much agree. I actually kind of love the idea of Wade in this scenario. If you're going to put together the best team of all time 5 years too late, why go half ass? I don't even mean that in a bad way. If were going for lightening in a bottle, its worth it to see if a shit ton of motivated guys past their prime can rally around a still great Melo and a soon to be great KP. At the worst its must watch TV and at the best you get one year, maybe two years, of possible contention and then a sharp decline. Wade wasn't what he was but he's still relatively productive. Also- like dep said about Rose, maybe a real switch in roles for Wade ups his productivity. Then you just find as many shooters as you can and hope KP and Noah can be fierce enough as rim protectors for having a sub par defensive back court.
Here's the thing about the Dwyane Wade-Knicks notion: even the Knicks acknowledge that they don't have enough $$ to satisfy his desires.
If we don't get it done, then Phil can say we tried and then tear it all back up in 3-4 years, and then build around KP.
And of course, all within the remainder of Melo's contract.
It's funny to say now, but nobody wants to sit through 82 games of it.
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Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
Umm...
The Spurs got Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, George Hill (who they eventually flipped for Kawhi Leonard), and Thiago Splitter without a 1st round pick higher than 25. They signed Danny Green off of the scrap heap.
Ok dude. Make a plan based on drafting and developing talent like the Spurs. That experiment seems repeatable at will.
It's funny to say now, but nobody wants to sit through 82 games of it.
Way too late for that though no? Might as well put some spinning rims on it before we crash!
Here's the thing about the Dwyane Wade-Knicks notion: even the Knicks acknowledge that they don't have enough $$ to satisfy his desires.
This! Wade is just posturing to force Riley to give him what he believes he deserves/gave up on other contracts As much as I'd like to stick it to Pat the Rat, I don't want to see us lose Lee or Gordon while Wade keeps us in a holding pattern, only to get his way w/the Heat.
But he'd see way less of the ball here, can't spread the floor, and doesn't play defense.
We need guys who can excel without the ball in their hands.
Again, I don't know much about Lee's game, but someone above posted that Wade at his worse, is still better than Lee at his best.
dpinzow : 7:39 pm : link : reply
In comment 13018368 Canton said:
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then a Courtney Lee? I don't know much about Courtneys game.
Fossilized Wade is still way better than Courtney Lee
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In comment 13018272 Lopes1984 said:
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in depth. Definitely worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes to kill. Link - ( New Window )
Good article, but I'm not quite as negative (although Lowe isn't particularly negative either) for one reason... for the first time in my lifetime, the Knicks' future 1st round picks are 100% completely and totally theirs. No horseshit flipping or anything like that. With those picks, the building around KP can still happen even as they add these other players. Like he says, the star is everything and KP appears to be that star.
Except draft picks are less valuable if you dont suck. Obviously it is good we had them. Indeed, we traded them on the assumption we wouldnt suck, and we did. So Im not knocking picks.
Talk about low expectations though. Knicks fans justify anything by saying "well at least we have our picks".
Dude... Cmon. Now you're just finding a way to drum up negativity
He shot .159 from 3. Robin Lopez could do that.
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That's simply not true. Wade played 74 games last year. He had 19 points while shooting 46% from the field with 4 rebounds, 4.6 assists & 1 steal a game. He's a much better option then Courtney Lee.
But he'd see way less of the ball here, can't spread the floor, and doesn't play defense.
We need guys who can excel without the ball in their hands.
People can't drill this into their heads. Yes wade is a flashier name than Lee. Yes he's a better player than Lee. But think about it practically. Rose and Melo already have some of the highest usage rates at their respective positions. What can wade do when the ball isn't in his hands? Answer: not much
Ok dude. Make a plan based on drafting and developing talent like the Spurs. That experiment seems repeatable at will.
Current (non-Spurs) NBA players drafted 24th or later:
- Kyle Lowry
- Paul Millsap
- Marc Gasol
- Serge Ibaka
- Nicolas Batum
- DeAndre Jordan
- Goran Dragic
- Hassan Whiteside
- Reggie Jackson
- Jimmy Butler
- Chandler Parsons
- Isaiah Thomas
- Jae Crowder
- Draymond Green
- Rudy Gobert
There's obviously more, but the idea that you can't get talent or pieces to build around KP without lottery picks is foolish. You need the lottery pick to get KP... once you have the star, the rest of it is a lot easier.
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Ok dude. Make a plan based on drafting and developing talent like the Spurs. That experiment seems repeatable at will.
Current (non-Spurs) NBA players drafted 24th or later:
- Kyle Lowry
- Paul Millsap
- Marc Gasol
- Serge Ibaka
- Nicolas Batum
- DeAndre Jordan
- Goran Dragic
- Hassan Whiteside
- Reggie Jackson
- Jimmy Butler
- Chandler Parsons
- Isaiah Thomas
- Jae Crowder
- Draymond Green
- Rudy Gobert
There's obviously more, but the idea that you can't get talent or pieces to build around KP without lottery picks is foolish. You need the lottery pick to get KP... once you have the star, the rest of it is a lot easier.
The list of players drafted 5 and higher is much longer and better.
Tommy Dipshit still knows nothing.
ESPN sources say the Knicks have made a four-year offer to Courtney Lee, but Lee has a variety of suitors and is working through the options
Sources: Free agent guard Eric Gordon finished meeting with Memphis hierarchy within the hour. More conversations w/ Knicks on tap too.
Why do they have to do that? They hold the bird rights on both of them, no?
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So right now most they can offer is 19
Why do they have to do that? They hold the bird rights on both of them, no?
No needed cap space to sign whiteside
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By then Lee/Gordon will have signed elsewhere, Wade will have tweaked Pat the Rat to make roster space to get him his $$$ & we'll have nada!
Tommy Dipshit still knows nothing.
Austin Green Retweeted Stefan Bondy
Willy to NYK is official. Special offensive player, defense/athleticism will be problems. He needs a good mentor
(Seems like Noah is perfect for this role)
"Special" offensive player? I hadnt heard that before. Exciting.
Are you hearing anything from the inside?
And Bron Bron...ok, I went there. Hey, he said it himself. He wants to play with Melo, Wade and Paul.
Though I think I'd rather have Westbrook than Paul.
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I would need to see the numbers. I think I like Gordon better if they are both healthy (a big if). I have to say I'm intrigued by Wade short term if it could lead to Paul.
And Bron Bron...ok, I went there. Hey, he said it himself. He wants to play with Melo, Wade and Paul.
Though I think I'd rather have Westbrook than Paul.
Why do you keep saying that? I am not being a dick. I just don't see how that is even possible financially. If we spend all of our available cap this year then we only have room for one max assuming Rose is not re-signed. If he is then I don't think we have enough for a max. Am I wrong?
Nothing's done yet but NYK's told people they expect to have around $11 million avail after Noah.
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In comment 13018491 Carl in CT said:
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I would need to see the numbers. I think I like Gordon better if they are both healthy (a big if). I have to say I'm intrigued by Wade short term if it could lead to Paul.
And Bron Bron...ok, I went there. Hey, he said it himself. He wants to play with Melo, Wade and Paul.
Though I think I'd rather have Westbrook than Paul.
Why do you keep saying that? I am not being a dick. I just don't see how that is even possible financially. If we spend all of our available cap this year then we only have room for one max assuming Rose is not re-signed. If he is then I don't think we have enough for a max. Am I wrong?
He did say he would take less to play with those guys. I don't think it's financially feasible, but if they all take pay cuts and given how the cap keeps increasing, it may be at least possible, just not probable.
Negative. The cap is projected to peak then for a few years basically either shrink a bit or flatline.
Nothing's done yet but NYK's told people they expect to have around $11 million avail after Noah.
That would be terrible news if the only person they're adding is Noah. They have 32-35M now I believe.
Yeah, beats me. Too bad that guys can't restructure their deals like in the NFL.
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Ian Begley @IanBegley
Nothing's done yet but NYK's told people they expect to have around $11 million avail after Noah.
That would be terrible news if the only person they're adding is Noah. They have 32-35M now I believe.
That has to include cap holds for gallows and Thomas and maybe dwill
Sources: Dwyane Wade fielding $20 million-a-year offers. Four teams pursuing him.
Wade
Big big congrats to @youngwhiteside Your dedication and hard work to the game has finally paid off..#Caniborrow5dollars
Seems interesting in light of rumors about him being upset over the contract and rumors of Whiteside immaturity in Miami
However this team unquestionably would have a TON of talent, great character and tremendous balance. Further the top four players will all be under the age of 32.
Frontcourt:
C/PF
2 Mobile shot altering defenders- KP and Noah
2 excellent passing bigs- KP and Noah
1 very promising rookie which reports indicate is quite developed offensively (needs work on D)- Hernangomez
1 Big who can handle the more rugged PFs and C's- Noah
SF
An excellent mid range and decent 3 pt shooter who can take over games at times and also create his own shot-Melo
Backcourt:
PG
An excellent slashing PG who can create off the dribble and create open shots for his teammates with how much a Defense has to collapse off him.- Rose
SG
A career 38% 3 pt FG sharpshooter who can create his own shot who is an underrated defender. An excellent complement to Rose.- Eric Gordon
Bench:
Lance Thomas- good 3 and D guy with defensive versarility to guard some 2,3 and 4's
Galloway -good defender at the 1 and 2 spot and can hit the 3 when called upon.
Coach:
Lastly a new coach that by all accounts should be adept at creating an offensive system to fit the talents of his players and create excellent ball movement,spacing and open shots.
There is certainly risks here but this is a team that at the very least can give us legitimate hope and optimism heading into the season that they can contend in the weak Eastern Conference.
And if guys stay relatively healthy make a deep run in the playoffs and possibly the ECF.
Sources: Dwyane Wade fielding $20 million-a-year offers. Four teams pursuing him.
And the Knicks are not one of those 4 teams...
Now, lets say we get Lee, is there any possibility to get Gordon too? I read something that said it is possible but I don't see how.
Gotta be the latter.
if meaningful, could be actually working in the Knicks favor, not against them. If they've already reached a general agreement and are waiting to announce terms for a specific reason it's most likely because they're trying to work on something behind the scenes with another player(s), trying to have the contract pieces fit together better.
17-18-17.1 mill
18-19-17.9 mill
19-20-18.6 mill
from Bobby Marks
8m8 minutes ago
Marc Berman @NYPost_Berman
#Knicks meeting with Noah at posh resort hotel on Disney grounds tonight is at three-hour mark.
They might be discussing dropping the 1st year a little lower to allow to sign EG or CL and then giving him higher or the maximum allowable increases each successive year.
17-18-17.1 mill
18-19-17.9 mill
19-20-18.6 mill
from Bobby Marks
That cannot be accurate since it was just reported as a 4 year deal worth $72 mil.
Knicks and Joakim Noah have officially agreed on a 4 year $72 million deal after meeting in Orlando tonight http://es.pn/29iLUX3
10:39 PM - 1 Jul 2016
Link - ( New Window )
Lol!
I wish phil would have gone to melo and said that he wanted to rebuild and forced melo to accept trade to pickup some 2017 picks to begin the rebuild. Would have had our own likely lottery pick as well as whoever we traded melo to and the ability to pay for nearly 3 max guys in 2017bto play with porzingis and future picks. Now we Weill be stuck with picks in the 15-22 range for the next few years, which stinks.
PG - Rose, X
SG - X, Holiday, Baker
SF - Melo, X, Labeyrie
PF - Porzingis, KOQ
C - Noah, Hernangomez
@ChrisBHaynes
According to sources, a trade that's been pondered in recent days featured Hawks forward Paul Millsap and collection of picks owned by Suns.
True
He sounds like he'd be a great fit for this style of basketball. Too bad.
I'll tell you what it was: REALITY. You guys crack me up. You are still living the fantasy of sucking and then somehow attracting a player of the caliber of Westbrook to even look at us. Have you learned nothing from the past 6 years? We are now at the point where the superstars aren't even to the point of laughing at us. THEY DON"T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE OUR EXISTENCE. We have to return to the NBA map to even have a chance. Phil rightfully realizes that we have to become relevant to attract the elite free agents. For those of you lamenting that we won't contend for a title for the next 10 years, what exactly is the path to doing that? tank for 3 years straight hoping that #1 we are lucky enough to get the #1 pick(and not drop from 2-4 like last year and #2 have the player available at #1 be a franchise changer when it has a much better opportunity of being Emeka Okafor or Anthony Bennett. Listen I'm not drop dead in lover with Rose or Noah, but if they can help us win 45 games and be a playoff team again I'm all for it. Then you can free up enough $ for a max guy next year and go from there. At least if we are a playoff team the stars will give us the time of day. This plan may not work but it sure as hell beats winning 30 games a year and hoping...because thats a long long road to tile contention.
Hornacek mainly changed Phil's tune. Hornacek said get him some good players he wants to a competitive team. Hornacek also doesn't view Melo's career arc like most of BBI. He feels Melo has several good years left to chase championships. Which I agree with. Melo is only 32 yrs old not 42. Hornacek and the core of those Jazz teams were chasing championships well into their 30s (36/37 yrs old).
And Phil as stated very recently, "Whats so great about the East?"
You never thought you'd love it?
I've been waiting for the Lakers to be in disarray since I started watching sports. It's fucking great.
Rose is not an MVP but plays 60-65 games at the level he finished last year at. Noah gives us 65 games at normal Noah type stuff. We sign a decent 2 guard and make the playoffs. We Then have a near max or max slot for next year free agency. Thats a hell of a lot more plausible and more likely trip toward the upper tier of the East than tearing the whole thing down besides Porz and piling up #1's that end up being between #20-30 in the 1st rd.
The max slot next year is possible with the Noah deal and what we're going to have to shell out for a "decent" 2 guard?
What's with the constant hashtags? #douche
Quote:
Raptors looking to snipe Meyers Leonard? Get in there Phil, Crabbe! #Knicks
What's with the constant hashtags? #douche
#GetOffMyLawn
A- The guy hasn't done shit in 2 years
B- Did anyone else actually want him?
I didn't think trading RoLo was a big deal, but at least I remember when he was good (he still is). Who the fuck were they bidding against for Noah? Smh.
Quote:
Raptors looking to snipe Meyers Leonard? Get in there Phil, Crabbe! #Knicks
What's with the constant hashtags? #douche
#Relax
A- The guy hasn't done shit in 2 years
B- Did anyone else actually want him?
I didn't think trading RoLo was a big deal, but at least I remember when he was good (he still is). Who the fuck were they bidding against for Noah? Smh.
Many teams wanted Noah. They were immediately rebuffed by the player. This has been well documented. He wanted to be a Knick.
A- The guy hasn't done shit in 2 years
B- Did anyone else actually want him?
I didn't think trading RoLo was a big deal, but at least I remember when he was good (he still is). Who the fuck were they bidding against for Noah? Smh.
Am I the only one who thought Robin looked like sideshow Bob with a worse low post game? His low post was good for four points or so a game. He rebounded by default (everyone else was on the perimeter), he had horrendous hands, couldn't and didn't finish strong, looked surprised when he hit a jumper, never played D with his hands up, couldn't block shots, wasn't a rim protector, was Brook Lopez without the shot blocking ability....
Why are people mad we get it rid of him? He was terrible other than just being tall. If we were going to have a guy with no O game, I'd rather a big D goon who bodied up, protected the rim and grabbed boards....where's Dale and Antonio Davis when you need them?