Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
Their actions don't suggest they're that concerned with the future right now.
I can't assume they're banking on Rose to be the guy they're counting on long term. It would be highly irresponsible given his injury history and declined performance to make that part of their long term thinking. He's got to have at least one healthy year and play like a start to have that conversation.
Noah. Even if we take your arbitrary point of the year after Noah had an awesome year you pretty much have 2015 where at best you could say they were close as players and then last year when Noah was hurt. Plus its not like Moz is some kid with upside. He will be 30 in like 2 weeks, basically a year and a half younger then Noah.
But Deej is right about mortgaging the future. You're not exactly setting yourself up to attract Westbrook next off season. If Rose doesn't workout you target CP3 or Lowry, who will age with our roster anyways. Westbrook would be doing a disservice to himself by signing with 3 over the hill starters on their last legs.
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
It's not like Westbrook would be "alone". He'd also have an ascending KP to play alongside.
And if by some chance the Knicks can make the ECF in 2016/17, it's going to be a lot more enticing to FAs like Westbrook to join them.
in Austin Rivers. He just isnt very good. I mean the rumored price of 5 mill is basically a min deal at this point, although id rather take a shot on some other PG's for even less money. It sounds like some of the attraction to Gordon is it leaves us a bit more money to go for a backup PG. That said how much better is Rivers then whoever we could get in a week or two for a couple mill instead of 5. I know with Rose's history we need a backup PG who is solid, but im not sure that is Rivers.
and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I thought it was jumping like 20M in each of the next two years, no? Wasn't the TV deal 9 years?
This year is jump 1, next year is jump 2. For some reason it then goes down. I think there is a balloon payment next year or something. Next year is an aberration. i.e. 2018-19 will be higher than 2016-17 -- it is 2017-18 that is a one-off.
I think.
Thanks, I keep hearing conflicting things as far as this goes so I wasn't sure.
saying that Noah is good for a 2 or 1 year deal sound retarded. The guy is a pro athlete looking to cement his last longer term deal of his career. He's 31. The back end of his prime. It's final paycheck time. His agents know this is his last hurrah. They're not going to waste it on short term deals so that idiotic Knick fans can feel good about their wiggle room.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
^This. But I’d pass on the 4/72 unless the last year isn’t guaranteed. Unfortunately, that’s the market. Look at what Mozgov got from the Lakers. Ridiculous.
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
It's not like Westbrook would be "alone". He'd also have an ascending KP to play alongside.
And if by some chance the Knicks can make the ECF in 2016/17, it's going to be a lot more enticing to FAs like Westbrook to join them.
But if they're good enough to make the ECF in '16/17 doesn't that probably mean rose has a pretty good season? Then it would seem they would extend rose and fill out their bench with the cap space.
Yeah Westbrook wouldn't be alone with KP. But he wouldn't be alone with KD, Oladipo and Adams either. Maybe Horford too.
he isnt in his mid thirties and the injuries last year were to his shoulder. Before that he was usually playing in around 65 games and i cant say for sure (and im not looking it up) but id bet a few of those were just rest games either during the year or at the end. He isnt a guy who never gets hurt but its not like he has averaged 40 games missed his whole career.
But if they're good enough to make the ECF in '16/17 doesn't that probably mean rose has a pretty good season? Then it would seem they would extend rose and fill out their bench with the cap space.
Probably, but even if Rose has a good season, why wouldn't you look to upgrade the team? Especially if you think the upgrade from Rose to Westbrook would get you over the hump.
Whether they sign Noah or not, I think the "attractiveness" of the Knicks next offseason will largely be based on KPs development. Does he *just* become a top 50 player or can he take a jump to become a top 25 player next season?
minds if they give Noah 4 yrs/$72M. Even when he was healthy last year he was routinely benched in favor of a Gasol/Gibson combo during crunch time (and this was when the Bulls were winning games). Add in the injury risk, and the fact that his game relies mostly on athleticism, and I just don't see it working out.
Centers everywhere are getting crazy money, but even with the higher cap, Noah is going to take a legitimate chunk of the Knicks cap for a little while and that contract is going to be very hard to move.
Who knows though... a few years ago he was one of the most valuable Cs in the league and was a fierce locker room leader. Maybe as he ages into his 30s he can regain his form and the deal could work out. Just seems like a wild gamble to me.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
Yes, Durant and Westbrook arent coming here. Doesnt mean you then resign yourself to bad deals. Make good deals. Wait the market out a little. Sign several Williams types on make-goods. Trade for a guy under contract who another team wants out of for cap room.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
Yes, Durant and Westbrook arent coming here. Doesnt mean you then resign yourself to bad deals. Make good deals. Wait the market out a little. Sign several Williams types on make-goods. Trade for a guy under contract who another team wants out of for cap room.
What Williams types? What trades? This is the NBA. Everyone who is not on a rookie deal or isn't a truly great player on a max deal is overpaid. The lesson from this ought to be that cap space is overrated and the best thing that Phil has done is not trade picks.
The problem with going 4 years for Noah is that KP's future is at the 5 and Melo should be playing the 4. That is the optimal lineup for this team. It's where the league is going and where the Knicks should be headed.
With that said, the team desperately needs competitiveness/ winning attitude and defense. Noah gives you that dynamic. He was DPOY and 4th in MVP in 2014.
Signing Eric Gordon or Courtney Lee for big money would be a disaster. Go bargain shopping for wings on short deals.
What Williams types? What trades? This is the NBA. Everyone who is not on a rookie deal or isn't a truly great player on a max deal is overpaid. The lesson from this ought to be that cap space is overrated and the best thing that Phil has done is not trade picks.
You dont target specific players. You see which player thought he was getting 15 per and only got offers for 8. Sign him to a 1+1 deal.
No one was talking about Williams coming here last year. Until he came.
it me or is Ish Smith a "steal" in this market for 16 million?
Maybe. We probably think he's better than he is because he lit the Knicks up. However, he has bounced around a ton. Put up good numbers with inefficient shooting last year in huge usage. If he's not in a situation where there is no one else around him who can dribble, is he all that useful?
The fact that he got the deal and when he took it tells me it is likely fair. He jumped on this deal. Where was guardless Philly to top it? Why not wait until other teams' first choices sign?
it me or is Ish Smith a "steal" in this market for 16 million?
Maybe. We probably think he's better than he is because he lit the Knicks up. However, he has bounced around a ton. Put up good numbers with inefficient shooting last year in huge usage. If he's not in a situation where there is no one else around him who can dribble, is he all that useful?
The fact that he got the deal and when he took it tells me it is likely fair. He jumped on this deal. Where was guardless Philly to top it? Why not wait until other teams' first choices sign?
If Austin Rivers is in line for 5 million then I'll take Ish Smith for the same rate any day of the week. I think most of BBI would be praising Phil if he signed Smith for that price. Maybe he was tired of moving around (he's been on 9 teams).
it is what it is--At least Noah won't be maxed out he's still being paid pretty fair value maybe even good value. It's not a stretch to hope his contract his movable over the next 2-3 years if the Knicks were so compelled.
Just because he's getting a lot of years doesn't necessarily mean the contract becomes an albatross. Noah is a worthy player this isn't some slob like Eddie Curry that has no business getting paid big bucks.
Wait and see...if it's 4...it's 4. Noah will be a fun guy to root for and just maybe the deal works out. No one plays the game harder and he is only 31.
IMO, it all comes down to whether you're inclined to be optimistic or pessimistic. If (big IF) Noah remains healthy and shows no lasting effects of his previous injuries, this contract is a very good one for the Knicks. If he continues to get injured, or is less effective following his past injuries, the contract is potentially damaging.
What I see is the Knicks pursuing a big whose skill set matches what they want to do, and what they need from their center in order to do so. Yes, the dollars are a concern, but as many have pointed out, that's the market. What's the alternative? Pursue a big whose skill set doesn't match the scheme? How is that any less of a risk? If anything, that would be even more of a risk, IMO, because in that case, no amount of health is going to allow that player to be productive in the way the Knicks envision. At least with Noah, you know you're getting the big the team wants and that he should be effective as long as he is healthy, even if he still does have some injury issues going forward.
Is it ideal? No, but there are no ideal scenarios available that could actually happen. That's not to say they should be making moves for the sake of making moves; rather, it's just that some calculated risk is necessary in this market and for this team. I think we're seeing what basically amounts to the new foundation and going forward, depth and prospects will be added with cap space and draft picks. If Hornacek is the right guy, the talent will be developed from within while this new foundation gives the team a much needed competitive boost and hopefully creates a winning culture for the next wave of youth to grow into.
in any even he's a better shooter than Ish. It's really not all that clear how Ish will when you try to make him part of a winning team with a functional, efficient offense.
if there was ever gonna be a guy the Knicks would lock down for "too" long--let it be Noah. The Knicks absolutely have to nurture and develop KP. Noah is a big step in the right direction.
I almost feel like it's worth the risk even if you told me Noah's arms would fall off after year 3. I tend to think leadership can be overstated at times but that's only if you have in spades and your team is filled with vets. KP is priority one. The Knicks desperately need a guy just like Noah.
in any even he's a better shooter than Ish. It's really not all that clear how Ish will when you try to make him part of a winning team with a functional, efficient offense.
He's the backup PG. Likely better than whomever our backup PG will be this year, and is backing up a better PG than whom we have.
the fact it isn't lower body injury doesn't scare me. He wasn't a great who's a great athlete to begin with he works hard puts himself in great position and has an endless motor. Knick fans will love him....oakleyesque
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
Give me Noah, Lee and some bench pieces and it will be a successful offseason for me.
If we get Gordon instead, well, at least for the 11 games where Rose, Noah and Gordon are all healthy, the Knicks will be pretty sweet.
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Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
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In comment 13016913 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
Their actions don't suggest they're that concerned with the future right now.
I can't assume they're banking on Rose to be the guy they're counting on long term. It would be highly irresponsible given his injury history and declined performance to make that part of their long term thinking. He's got to have at least one healthy year and play like a start to have that conversation.
You gotta sign the FAs that actually want to be here.
Quote:
In comment 13016913 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
It's not like Westbrook would be "alone". He'd also have an ascending KP to play alongside.
And if by some chance the Knicks can make the ECF in 2016/17, it's going to be a lot more enticing to FAs like Westbrook to join them.
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In comment 13016881 Deej said:
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and then going down the following year. 2017-18 cap will be a high water mark for a while.
If it's not really a 4 year deal that is better. If it is, that's mortgaging the future. You can spin to justify it all you want. It's making a massive long term investment for a breaking down player because you hope he will help you win this year (a year you have no title chance). No one thinks Year 4 of Noah will be a year you want to pay him $20 million.
This is how shitty deals happen. You tell yourself that 2 years for Noah is a good idea, and then when it is 4 years you convince yourself that there is no big difference.
I thought it was jumping like 20M in each of the next two years, no? Wasn't the TV deal 9 years?
This year is jump 1, next year is jump 2. For some reason it then goes down. I think there is a balloon payment next year or something. Next year is an aberration. i.e. 2018-19 will be higher than 2016-17 -- it is 2017-18 that is a one-off.
I think.
Thanks, I keep hearing conflicting things as far as this goes so I wasn't sure.
The guy's a top defensive center. We're paying for it and we're going to have to offer more than 2 fucking years of team options.
^This. But I’d pass on the 4/72 unless the last year isn’t guaranteed. Unfortunately, that’s the market. Look at what Mozgov got from the Lakers. Ridiculous.
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In comment 13016916 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13016913 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Phil eyes for the future the Noah signing makes little sense
I'm not sure how true that is. One doesn't require the other to be effective.
So the plan is to attract Westbrook with a 31 year old, a 32 year old and a 33 year old as 3 of the other 4 starters? Doesn't exactly give Westbrook a huge window to spend his prime in.
It's not like Westbrook would be "alone". He'd also have an ascending KP to play alongside.
And if by some chance the Knicks can make the ECF in 2016/17, it's going to be a lot more enticing to FAs like Westbrook to join them.
But if they're good enough to make the ECF in '16/17 doesn't that probably mean rose has a pretty good season? Then it would seem they would extend rose and fill out their bench with the cap space.
Yeah Westbrook wouldn't be alone with KP. But he wouldn't be alone with KD, Oladipo and Adams either. Maybe Horford too.
Rather see them put in a waiver claim for Jarrett Jacks at $6 mill
But if they're good enough to make the ECF in '16/17 doesn't that probably mean rose has a pretty good season? Then it would seem they would extend rose and fill out their bench with the cap space.
Probably, but even if Rose has a good season, why wouldn't you look to upgrade the team? Especially if you think the upgrade from Rose to Westbrook would get you over the hump.
Whether they sign Noah or not, I think the "attractiveness" of the Knicks next offseason will largely be based on KPs development. Does he *just* become a top 50 player or can he take a jump to become a top 25 player next season?
Centers everywhere are getting crazy money, but even with the higher cap, Noah is going to take a legitimate chunk of the Knicks cap for a little while and that contract is going to be very hard to move.
Who knows though... a few years ago he was one of the most valuable Cs in the league and was a fierce locker room leader. Maybe as he ages into his 30s he can regain his form and the deal could work out. Just seems like a wild gamble to me.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
Yes, Durant and Westbrook arent coming here. Doesnt mean you then resign yourself to bad deals. Make good deals. Wait the market out a little. Sign several Williams types on make-goods. Trade for a guy under contract who another team wants out of for cap room.
NOTHING has changed since a few days ago when the overwhelming consensus was that a long term deal for Noah is a mistake. People are just talking themselves into it because it is happening. It's dumb. You dont see the well run teams giving 20% of the cap to a guy who has done jack shit in 2 straight seasons.
Yes, Durant and Westbrook arent coming here. Doesnt mean you then resign yourself to bad deals. Make good deals. Wait the market out a little. Sign several Williams types on make-goods. Trade for a guy under contract who another team wants out of for cap room.
What Williams types? What trades? This is the NBA. Everyone who is not on a rookie deal or isn't a truly great player on a max deal is overpaid. The lesson from this ought to be that cap space is overrated and the best thing that Phil has done is not trade picks.
With that said, the team desperately needs competitiveness/ winning attitude and defense. Noah gives you that dynamic. He was DPOY and 4th in MVP in 2014.
Signing Eric Gordon or Courtney Lee for big money would be a disaster. Go bargain shopping for wings on short deals.
I'm hoping Noah's 4th year is non-guaranteed.
What Williams types? What trades? This is the NBA. Everyone who is not on a rookie deal or isn't a truly great player on a max deal is overpaid. The lesson from this ought to be that cap space is overrated and the best thing that Phil has done is not trade picks.
You dont target specific players. You see which player thought he was getting 15 per and only got offers for 8. Sign him to a 1+1 deal.
No one was talking about Williams coming here last year. Until he came.
Maybe. We probably think he's better than he is because he lit the Knicks up. However, he has bounced around a ton. Put up good numbers with inefficient shooting last year in huge usage. If he's not in a situation where there is no one else around him who can dribble, is he all that useful?
The fact that he got the deal and when he took it tells me it is likely fair. He jumped on this deal. Where was guardless Philly to top it? Why not wait until other teams' first choices sign?
Yeah, I don't understand how the Sixers w/all that money to spend let him leave for that amount.
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it me or is Ish Smith a "steal" in this market for 16 million?
Maybe. We probably think he's better than he is because he lit the Knicks up. However, he has bounced around a ton. Put up good numbers with inefficient shooting last year in huge usage. If he's not in a situation where there is no one else around him who can dribble, is he all that useful?
The fact that he got the deal and when he took it tells me it is likely fair. He jumped on this deal. Where was guardless Philly to top it? Why not wait until other teams' first choices sign?
If Austin Rivers is in line for 5 million then I'll take Ish Smith for the same rate any day of the week. I think most of BBI would be praising Phil if he signed Smith for that price. Maybe he was tired of moving around (he's been on 9 teams).
hes naba caliber just def not a starter type probably around the 11th man on a team
Smith isn't much. His claim to fame is being one of the fastest runners in the league. He can't shoot from range unless he's guarded by Jose Calderon.
Smith isn't much. His claim to fame is being one of the fastest runners in the league. He can't shoot from range unless he's guarded by Jose Calderon.
In this market 6 million in salary is almost "minimum" for a decent backup player.
Just because he's getting a lot of years doesn't necessarily mean the contract becomes an albatross. Noah is a worthy player this isn't some slob like Eddie Curry that has no business getting paid big bucks.
Wait and see...if it's 4...it's 4. Noah will be a fun guy to root for and just maybe the deal works out. No one plays the game harder and he is only 31.
What I see is the Knicks pursuing a big whose skill set matches what they want to do, and what they need from their center in order to do so. Yes, the dollars are a concern, but as many have pointed out, that's the market. What's the alternative? Pursue a big whose skill set doesn't match the scheme? How is that any less of a risk? If anything, that would be even more of a risk, IMO, because in that case, no amount of health is going to allow that player to be productive in the way the Knicks envision. At least with Noah, you know you're getting the big the team wants and that he should be effective as long as he is healthy, even if he still does have some injury issues going forward.
Is it ideal? No, but there are no ideal scenarios available that could actually happen. That's not to say they should be making moves for the sake of making moves; rather, it's just that some calculated risk is necessary in this market and for this team. I think we're seeing what basically amounts to the new foundation and going forward, depth and prospects will be added with cap space and draft picks. If Hornacek is the right guy, the talent will be developed from within while this new foundation gives the team a much needed competitive boost and hopefully creates a winning culture for the next wave of youth to grow into.
I almost feel like it's worth the risk even if you told me Noah's arms would fall off after year 3. I tend to think leadership can be overstated at times but that's only if you have in spades and your team is filled with vets. KP is priority one. The Knicks desperately need a guy just like Noah.
He's the backup PG. Likely better than whomever our backup PG will be this year, and is backing up a better PG than whom we have.