NFT: 2nd terrorist attack in Occupied west bank area near Hebron

as a non-Jew who basically only had a precursory knowledge of the history of Israel and the surrounding Arabic lands, I really had my eyes opened when I visited Israel.

You see the Palestinians acting like animals, spitting at people, openly shouting in the streets, trying to start provocations, and at least on the surface, the Israeli's try to do their best to tolerate it.

Now granted, my experiences are based off just a brief visit to the country, but I was left with a lasting impression of how the perception we have been often fed by the Media is in stark contract to my experiences.

When I returned home, I tried to learn as much about the history as possible, and the systematic attempts to eradicate Israel and the amount of support that venture gets is mind-boggling to me. You pretty much have an entire region who either actively or passively supports eliminating a people.

so the attitude is fuck it, do what we need to in order to survive and deal with the criticism. Unfortunately they need us and the propanganda war against them here is gaining yearly.

You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people.

The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.)

And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after.

The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan
(80 post thread in 3....2...1...)

Israel will always be in a state of war. The Arabs have no incentive to back down. The only thing that can really change things is for the Arab world as a whole to go through some kind of reformation process but you know the saying about relying on the kindness of strangers.

The few remaining Jews in Europe continue to move to Israel. I wonder if the flow should start going the other way (and/or to the U.S.).

In comment 13017251 muhajir said:

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You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

since October 2015 or before it?

As a non religious Jew who originally moved to Israel for a work opportunity primarily to make good Kosher wine, and secondarily for the good odds that I'd meet a nice Jewish gal to hook up with at age 40+ and make good on a death bed promise to my mom that I would at least consider trying to find a Jewish "girl" to marry...

continue to live in absolute squalor with absolutely zero hope for a better future and no ability to control their own destiny they are going to act out like this.

Now that certainly does not make it right but I think it's at least important to try to understand why people act as they do. If your answer is that they are simply animals who don't know any better that's a pretty weak response.

or you picked the wrong word ("girl") to put quotations around.

In comment 13017251 muhajir said:

Quote:

You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...)

Gaza is besieged? Maybe because the Palestinian people elected a genocidal terrorist group to lead them when they were left to their own devices after Israel kicked its own citizens out of their homes.

Maybe you've never heard of the 1929 Hebron Massacre when Arabs went house to house and slaughtered and raped innocent Jews. Was that because the Israeli government was oppressing them? Or was that 20 years before there was an Israeli government?

You don't deserve to be treated as equals if you celebrate murderers of children. You don't get sympathy for being 'oppressed' if you teach your children from kindergarten that martyrdom is the highest honor and put on plays where they go around stabbing Jews (google that one).

You are the definition of ignorant. Not only do you have no sense of history but you can't even contextualize current events. One side murders children in their beds and is called a hero. The other brings its criminals to justice.

Then conflict would have been resolved along time ago.....no one is squeaky clean.

I actually view Palestine more a pawn....in the greater Muslin/Jewish conflict.

as the surrounding Muslim countries threaten Isreal....Isreal creates buffer zones for protection..... encroaching into other countries.

You would think we are discussing vast lands....
I have been always amazed by the scope....as Isreal is only the size of NJ.

Really kind of amazing!!!!!

Goes back to why I really reject all religions....I have Christian values.....but religion has truly warped people perspective.

of what is going on over there. As the farthest thing ever from an expert, I will say the several Vice segments I watched on the settlements were fairly persuasive. (not looking to get into a debate on how Vice edits their pieces, they clearly have an agenda but IMO any semi intelligent individual should be able to cut through that and take what they need to).

Not to say that numerous actions by the Palestines arent reprehensible, but simply focusing on the settlements - my main question is why is there such a fixation on them when it seems like this would be a relatively easy issue to compromise on and possibly ease some tensions. The actions shown in those documents didnt make Isreal seem sympathetic in that regard. I am sure there are reasons, I candidly am just ignorant.

...on the Arab side, the refusal by several Arab nations many decades ago to absorb so-called "Palestinians" was a farce and a way to keep a sharp prod into Israel's side...

...and on Israel's side, the settlements and a turning away from the secular state that was originally birthed in 1949 hasn't exactly helped matters.

What a mess.

muhajir, I did educate myself on the situation when I returned, and the more I read and hear, the more I see a systematic attempt to exterminate Israel from the region. Outward hatred of the country. Not a subjective feeling, but a blatant hate of an entire country by pretty much the vast majority of Arabic lands in the vicinity.

Lou, I visited last year. Had some interesting experiences - I wrote a post about how much I loved visiting the country, especially Tel Aviv, and I talked about how great the food, especially the hummus was.

For me, it was a cultural awakening and gave me an appreciation for what the Israelis have to endure from nearly anyone around them.

and it bothers me the provocation that goes on with the settlements. Then again, Israel has given a lot of land back that it won in wars. Plus, even if Israel were to leave the settlements and give it to the Palestinians, it will never be enough.

Palestinians elected a Islamic fundamental terrorist organization as its leadership. They siphon funds used for infrastructure and utilities and instead line their pockets for mansions for the leaders and build tunnels to sneak into Israel to commit acts of violence.

Palestinian leadership brainwashes children with Sesame Street like programs on committing jihad and to kill the Jews. Hamas calls to wipe Israel and Jews off the map. They still teach and promote the blood libel myth.

Again, there are things that Israel does that I'm not proud of, though I think they show more restraint than most nations under constant attack.

I look around the world and I see incident after incident where radical terrorists have perverted Islam as a means to commit random acts of violence against the West and non-Muslims. So when I see Hamas make their threats and declarations against Israel, I cannot buy for one second that they are merely reacting to Israeli policies when they laud, sanction, promote,and compensate those who commit terrorist acts against the Israeli people.

try to name any World Leader who has called for the destruction of a country. Even enemies like North Korea have angered people, but nobody says they will go there and destroy the country. Yet, the number of Arabic leaders who have publicly said that about israel is numerous.

If I've been educated incorrectly, perhaps you could point me to where the Ant-Semitism is denounced in the Arabic culture. Where hatred of Israel isn't either overtly or tacitly approved?

Keep in mind, I'm not Jewish, so I have no bias in the matter.

Supporting a 2 state solution and wishing only for long term Peace and harmony in the region. And voted for Ehud Barak's party which was supported by an overwhelming mandate of the broader Israeli populace to finish up the business started by Rabin and Arafat st the Oslo accords.

And Barak went to camp David to meet Arafat. And Arafat said "fuck you" and declared war by Intifada.

In fact I could even underdtand the FU.

If Arafat felt the deal offered wasn't fair, if he felt the Palestinians were being railroaded into concessions that were too severe... I could live with that thought and that stubbornness.

But how to get what he wanted as fair and just? The historic models have been well laid out during the past century to achieve desired results and Israels' populace was ready to bend at that moment. You could feel it.

Non violent protests. Peacefull marches. Bloock highways non violently. Lay down in the streets. Fast...

But Arafat chose war.

What did that say? What was his and the Palestinians' true objective?

The goal remains, as it was from Israel's first war of independence when there was no such "state" as Palestine or even anything like a unified group one would call Palestinians but rather an overwhelming coalition of Arab states on all sides that strove to drive the UN mandated Jewish people of the territory of Israel into the sea or back from whence most of them came.

Every bit of history bears this out. The Oslo accords, from the Palestinian side, was a charade. A waiting game that Arafat hoped to parlay eventually as millions upon millions of "refugees" seeking a justifiable return to their "homeland."

To say that I was saddened and disillusioned by this realization is an understatement.

In comment 13017380 BlueLou said:

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Supporting a 2 state solution and wishing only for long term Peace and harmony in the region. And voted for Ehud Barak's party which was supported by an overwhelming mandate of the broader Israeli populace to finish up the business started by Rabin and Arafat st the Oslo accords. And Barak went to camp David to meet Arafat. And Arafat said "fuck you" and declared war by Intifada. In fact I could even underdtand the FU. If Arafat felt the deal offered wasn't fair, if he felt the Palestinians were being railroaded into concessions that were too severe... I could live with that thought and that stubbornness. But how to get what he wanted as fair and just? The historic models have been well laid out during the past century to achieve desired results and Israels' populace was ready to bend at that moment. You could feel it. Non violent protests. Peacefull marches. Bloock highways non violently. Lay down in the streets. Fast... But Arafat chose war. What did that say? What was his and the Palestinians' true objective?

this is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever read. What was offered to Arafat was a South African style bantusysnce. Essentially a non contiguous state that would be split up into multiple cantons.

The reality of the matter is simple. Israel is following a policy of expansion. When one reads internal Israeli documents they make clear that fears over security don't exist but rather they are seeking a policy of expansion. Israeli behavior of the occupied territories is a war crime as outlined by the 4 Th Geneva convention. This convention was initiated to criminalize the conduct of NAZI Germany's during the Second World War. As a result of their bull dozing Palestinian homes and annexing Palesinisn territory radical groups have developed that use terrorist actions to fight s political war. In Gaza Israel have essentially surrounded and enclosed the area turning it into a massive ghetto which is an act of war under Internstional law. Israel is an occupying power and a violent criminal rogue state that is universally condemned by the entire world routinely outside of the United States. All in votes are typically 155 to 2 that they terminate their occupation and settlement expansion.

In fact Israel is one of the most secure countries on earth. It is backed and funded by the us the worlds sole super power. Saudi Arabia, Egypt Jordan turkey etc etc etc are all allies of the United States and as such are not enemies to Israel. Even Irans animosity amounts to little more then rhetoric to cover up the failures of the Iranian regime. Israel is considered to be the fourth strongest military on earth with a huge stock pile of nuclear weapons that are in violation of the nuclear nom proliferation treaty. Israel is the aggressor and the blowback is Palestinian terror.

Their are also extremist Israeli terrorists who are psychotic Orthodox Jews who rampage in the West Bank. There are no doubt psychotic Palestinian terrorists. But the racism towards Jews is equaled by Jewish racism towards Palestinians. It is common place during war for both sides to dehumanized the other. Hence our racist names for the Japanese and Vietnamese and Germans etc etc.

Take a look at what the ignorant fat man wrote about them being animals. Imagine someone said that about Jews? That person would rightfully be criticized.

The Jewish and Palestinian people are great. Their leaders are vile monsters. But the ignorance about the conflict in this country is pathetic and these posts are a perfect illustration.

In comment 13017445 BlueLou said:

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The goal remains, as it was from Israel's first war of independence when there was no such "state" as Palestine or even anything like a unified group one would call Palestinians but rather an overwhelming coalition of Arab states on all sides that strove to drive the UN mandated Jewish people of the territory of Israel into the sea or back from whence most of them came. Every bit of history bears this out. The Oslo accords, from the Palestinian side, was a charade. A waiting game that Arafat hoped to parlay eventually as millions upon millions of "refugees" seeking a justifiable return to their "homeland." To say that I was saddened and disillusioned by this realization is an understatement.

the Palestinians and international community have called for 40 years hundreds of times for Israel to accept a two state solution. The entire intl community backs this including the majority of the Anericdn people. Each time the Israelis decline because as they state quite openly they seek expansion not peace which is why they have annexed Palestinian territory for said 40 years. You have no clue what your saying and it's embarrassing.

In comment 13017251 muhajir said:

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You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...)

Thank you, Muhaiir, for engaging this discussion with intelligence, historical perspective and reality-based analysis. I've been to Israel, Gaza, West Bank, refugee camps, seen demolished homes and ancient palestinian olive tree farms ruined by Israeli occupiers (the term "settler" would be laughable if not so offensive), and been tear-gassed with hundreds of nonviolent Palestinian people trying to defend their lives and property. (And yes, I've also visited Israeli Jewish homes in places like Sderot, where crudely made missiles launched by Palestinian militants have wreaked violence and property damage on a much, much smaller scale). And frankly, I don't have the psychic energy to fully participate in these threads that are so full of propaganda, misinformation and ignorance. So, again, I thank you for not letting these Zionist fantasies go unchallenged.

are you that desperate to post on BBI that you make a new dupe every time you get banned despite no one wanting you around?

don't you have something better to do that create a million dupes?

if this is Dustbin.

In comment 13017279 Tesla said:

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continue to live in absolute squalor with absolutely zero hope for a better future and no ability to control their own destiny they are going to act out like this. Now that certainly does not make it right but I think it's at least important to try to understand why people act as they do. If your answer is that they are simply animals who don't know any better that's a pretty weak response.

This argument is one without any basis whatsoever. Because if a "better standard of living" meant jack shit to the forces driving the Palestinian agenda peace with Israel would be a top priority on their list. Rather than eradication.

It's an oh so Western oh so completely ignorant view I really won't waste time addressing it further
Plenty of Palestinians in fact realize this and would just as soon live under the state of Israel's rule and laws rather than under the PA or Hamas. But you might imagine that outside of private conversations those with this opinion remain quiet for the most part. They have no voice. There is no real freedom of expression there, especially under Hamas's rule.

a list of Arabic leaders who have denounced actions against Israel or who support Israel should be able to easily be compiled, no?

Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift.

Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway.

I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe.

In comment 13017477 Mark C said:

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In comment 13017251 muhajir said: Quote: You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...) Thank you, Muhaiir, for engaging this discussion with intelligence, historical perspective and reality-based analysis. I've been to Israel, Gaza, West Bank, refugee camps, seen demolished homes and ancient palestinian olive tree farms ruined by Israeli occupiers (the term "settler" would be laughable if not so offensive), and been tear-gassed with hundreds of nonviolent Palestinian people trying to defend their lives and property. (And yes, I've also visited Israeli Jewish homes in places like Sderot, where crudely made missiles launched by Palestinian militants have wreaked violence and property damage on a much, much smaller scale). And frankly, I don't have the psychic energy to fully participate in these threads that are so full of propaganda, misinformation and ignorance. So, again, I thank you for not letting these Zionist fantasies go unchallenged.

Damn Zionist Jews making a fuss at out their children being stabbed in their beds and rocket aimed a their schools. They are damned evil and nazi like. After that stabbing. we have another street to name after a worthy mature.

Martyr.

I also support Israel on many issues. I'm curious what sources you used to educate yourself on the history. It was definitely one sided

In comment 13017279 Tesla said:

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continue to live in absolute squalor with absolutely zero hope for a better future and no ability to control their own destiny they are going to act out like this. Now that certainly does not make it right but I think it's at least important to try to understand why people act as they do. If your answer is that they are simply animals who don't know any better that's a pretty weak response.

Maybe they can all go and live with Arafat's wife in Paris. Just think how many could live well on the money he stole.

In comment 13017514 RB^2 said:

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Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift. Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway. I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe.

Do a little reading about what happened to some of the Jews in Europe postwar.

In comment 13017489 BlueLou said:

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In comment 13017279 Tesla said: Quote: continue to live in absolute squalor with absolutely zero hope for a better future and no ability to control their own destiny they are going to act out like this. Now that certainly does not make it right but I think it's at least important to try to understand why people act as they do. If your answer is that they are simply animals who don't know any better that's a pretty weak response. This argument is one without any basis whatsoever. Because if a "better standard of living" meant jack shit to the forces driving the Palestinian agenda peace with Israel would be a top priority on their list. Rather than eradication. It's an oh so Western oh so completely ignorant view I really won't waste time addressing it further Plenty of Palestinians in fact realize this and would just as soon live under the state of Israel's rule and laws rather than under the PA or Hamas. But you might imagine that outside of private conversations those with this opinion remain quiet for the most part. They have no voice. There is no real freedom of expression there, especially under Hamas's rule.

Lou, you are so hopelessly biased here - and understandably so - that there is not attempt to discuss this rationally with you.

there also used to be Jews all over the Middle East in Iraq, Iran, North Africa, and the Arab world. And they were expelled and left under duress after living there for thousands of years. Many left for Israel because of the attacks against them in their native lands.

behind the hatred

Quote:

FatMan AP in Halfmoon : 12:25 pm : link : reply I also support Israel on many issues. I'm curious what sources you used to educate yourself on the history. It was definitely one sided

How is something one-sided when a lot of sources show comments made by Arabic leaders to eliminate Israel and that there isn't widespread condemnation (or even narrowspread if that's a word) from the Arabic world.

Why does Israel have rigid security on many levels? Because there is an entire region who would like nothing more than to see them no longer exist. This isn't conjecture.

You look at all of the reasons given by the Arabic nations to "justify" their attitudes towards Israel and they try to hinge it on Palestine or Isreal existence to begin with. Someone above talked about Israel wanting to expand. Expand where? A couple more hundred square miles? An expanionist regime should be shooting to expand into several other lands. That isn't Israel's wish.

This boils down mainly to a hatred of Jewish doctrine and the belief they don't belong in the region. and the response is to overwhelmingly take an attitude of hatred and openly threaten to eliminate them.

I'd be curious to understand how one could look at the history of that region and feel it isn't that way.

And keep in mind, I'm not saying Israel bears no scrutiny. I'm saying that no matter how you look at the Middle East, there is one constant - a bunch of Arabic nations trying to have another one eliminated. It isn't the other way around.

In comment 13017530 Big Al said:

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In comment 13017514 RB^2 said: Quote: Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift. Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway. I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe. Do a little reading about what happened to some of the Jews in Europe postwar.

I know the East was bad but I was talking about the West that was pretty much under U.S. domination and the U.S. has a pretty good track record (relatively speaking) of protecting Jews.
Also, I know what happened to many of them in Palestine/Israel after the war.
Again, this isn't meant to be a perfect solution. It's just a discussion point.
One thing I believe in is that Jews should return to Europe. I think it would benefit both. It would certainly benefit Poland, where I'm from.

Quote:

and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.)

Except the point about "heavily fortified" if by that you mean literally fortress like. I have lived in an old and well established settlement called Beit El. There's a very heavy military presence there, but nothing more than cyclone fencing around the entire village and even that in fact is not contiguous. The military presence in the village and even along the village perimeter is hardly noticeable. And I took long walks along this perimeter regularly.
By foot over the hilly countryside any Palestinian could get into the village at anytime. Only once I was approached by Israeli soldiers with drawn weapons who told me to move away from the perimeter they were anticipating something bad.

Many male settlers arm themselves with legal handguns. Most I'd wager. But never the women or kids. And you'd be shocked at the numbers of settlers and Palestinians too who, unarmed, rely on hitch hiking to get around. They have unofficial separate areas to stand so that Palestinians pick up Palestinians and Jews pick up Jews.

But in East Jerusalem they can get mixed up and very close to one another. I mistakenly picked up 3 young Palestinan men in East Jerusalem and their slight surprise should have tipped me off, but they spoke English well enough and I took them from JLM to the entrance of Hizme, where they were headed.

I wouldn't do that now during the Intifada...

No one is denying that

In comment 13017514 RB^2 said:

Quote:

Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift. Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway. I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe.

If you go a little farther back it gets even more complicated. Near the end of the Ottoman Empire (say 1900 - 1919) there were communities of Christians, Jews and Arabs (obviously Muslims) all living in what was Greater Palestine. Yes, there was Zionist immigration from Europe, but there was a Jewish community there to migrate to. ALL were made promises by BOTH sides during WWI. The US didn't make promises to specific groups, but Point 12 of Wilson's 14 Points promised "autonomous development" to all the populations in the non-Turkey portions of the dissolving Ottoman Empire. So, in essence, all were promised a homeland.

In comment 13017583 AP in Halfmoon said:

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No one is denying that

absolutely and they are our allies. However the Jewish leaders are war criminals find scum as well. There is no symmetry in this situation. They are the occupying power and thus cause of their annexation war criminals under the Geneva conventions.

such a sad idiot.

Did your Dad finally get caught bilking the elderly because one of them was Jewish and ratted him out?

Is biased and that is fine...everyone has biases. Not going to even touch the Israel Palestine debate.

Blue Lou does himself no favors with the happy Ramadan comment however and his other comments on the whole of Islam. Really comes across as a bigot. And this is coming from a non religious person of Islamic heritage who'd be inclined to try his wine otherwise.....

when you see what's happening in Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc. Bottom line is that if the jews werent there the Palestinians would be killing each other because of who belonged to which sect of Islam. Sunni, Shiite, Jew, Christian, Buddist. Doesnt matter, they always are at war with one or the other.

being deleted?

In comment 13017566 RB^2 said:

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In comment 13017530 Big Al said: Quote: In comment 13017514 RB^2 said: Quote: Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift. Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway. I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe. Do a little reading about what happened to some of the Jews in Europe postwar. I know the East was badly but I was talking about the West that was pretty much under U.S. domination and the U.S. has a pretty good track record (relatively speaking) of protecting Jews. Also, I know what happened to many of them in Palestine/Israel after the war. Again, this isn't meant to be a perfect solution. It's just a discussion point. One thing I believe in is that Jews should return to Europe. I think it would benefit both. It would certainly benefit Poland, where I'm from.

My grandparents came from Poland and nearby Russia. True about Poliand where 43 Jews were killed in one ripped in 1946. Those who went west were put in refuge camps and later sent to various countries. Don't believe Western Europe was going to happen.

Riot

and Palestine?

Logistically how did you get around?

Because what you see depends very much on who takes you where?

I have wandered around the west bank as a free entity, on my own, into Christian Arab villages that are clearly marked with the red signs of being totally under PA control. I have traveled through Islamic villages with other armed men in the car on the way to visit vineyards sitting the region.

I've been doing this for years. How long where you there? How many villages did you visit?

I, too, have some experience in the Middle East. I was raised in Lebanon as a Maronite Christian and throughout the years experienced the compassion and hatred that both sides are capable of, including the Maronite community. My family lived in a village that depended upon militias for protection--often from other Maronite militias, presenting themselves as liberators of Lebanon from the Palestinians, or Hezbollah or Israel, but often little more than armies of warlords. What has always struck me is how complicated the situation is in the region.

From reading this thread it is apparent that everyone has their bias and I know that if I was an Israeli or Palestinian I, too, would be colored by experience. Yet,I find it necessary to try and distinguish the labels from the individuals. If all you know of the Arabs and the Israelis is what you read in various media outlets discussing atrocities and alleged atrocities, then you have been cheated. The people on all sides of this tragedy have suffered for too long while being tossed into an endless conflict that is always oversimplified and described in terms of good and evil. That is what makes it even more tragic.

In comment 13017632 Jeffrey said:

Quote:

I, too, have some experience in the Middle East. I was raised in Lebanon as a Maronite Christian and throughout the years experienced the compassion and hatred that both sides are capable of, including the Maronite community. My family lived in a village that depended upon militias for protection--often from other Maronite militias, presenting themselves as liberators of Lebanon from the Palestinians, or Hezbollah or Israel, but often little more than armies of warlords. What has always struck me is how complicated the situation is in the region. From reading this thread it is apparent that everyone has their bias and I know that if I was an Israeli or Palestinian I, too, would be colored by experience. Yet,I find it necessary to try and distinguish the labels from the individuals. If all you know of the Arabs and the Israelis is what you read in various media outlets discussing atrocities and alleged atrocities, then you have been cheated. The people on all sides of this tragedy have suffered for too long while being tossed into an endless conflict that is always oversimplified and described in terms of good and evil. That is what makes it even more tragic.

Well played, Sir!

Your posts are as productive as bufords. It's slightly more complicated than that.

even if I disagree. And I apologize for the snarky and sarcastic happy Ramadan remark. That was uncalled for. The murder of the girl in her bed two days ago really set me off. I have a daughter exactly her age and am not around now to protect her, not that I am armed or even have a vestige of my former fighting ability. But I can still shout pretty loud and wake up our dog who's pretty irritable about strangers. Once she wakes up...


Big Al no doubt there were heavy pressures on Arafat at Camp David not to sign a deal, any deal.

But I think the war commencing afterwards was very much at his provocation. Some have written that it got way out of his control, and was the beginning of the end for him, politically.

That's fascinating. I would love to hear more about your experience

In comment 13017650 BlueLou said:

Quote:

even if I disagree. And I apologize for the snarky and sarcastic happy Ramadan remark. That was uncalled for. The murder of the girl in her bed two days ago really set me off. I have a daughter exactly her age and am not around now to protect her, not that I am armed or even have a vestige of my former fighting ability. But I can still shout pretty loud and wake up our dog who's pretty irritable about strangers. Once she wakes up... Big Al no doubt there were heavy pressures on Arafat at Camp David not to sign a deal, any deal. But I think the war commencing afterwards was very much at his provocation. Some have written that it got way out of his control, and was the beginning of the end for him, politically.

Was that response intended for me? Never mentioned Arafat.

I hear you. My grandparents told me the same sorts of things. But on the other hand, black people were also being lynched, beaten, strung up on trees, not to mention officially discriminated against. Should they have packed up and left? Left for where? The U.S. was their home. Some former slaves went to Africa and founded Liberia, which is now just another war torn African nation. Meanwhile, the U.S. had a civil rights movement, and while racial issues remain, there's no dispute that African Americans are 100% Americans.

Similarly, despite centuries of discrimination and bigotry capped off with the Holocaust, European Jews' home was Europe. Despite the centuries of discrimination, they still thrived in Europe, made scientific discoveries, formed businesses, built fortunes, created masterpieces of art and generally advanced society. If the Jews had stayed, I think a similar civil rights movement would have happened in Europe.

Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc.

Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS.

Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel.

But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews.

Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free.

Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.'

The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!!

Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'

perhaps, but plenty of Jews stayed in France, and many more emigrated there. But now bunches are leaving and I don't blame them. I would be terrified if I were a Jew living in France. And in Eastern European countries, fans are bringing swastikas to soccer matches. I realize it's likely a few bad apples, but they openness to which they are promoting those values would scare me as a Jew.

In comment 13017681 RB^2 said:

Quote:

I hear you. My grandparents told me the same sorts of things. But on the other hand, black people were also being lynched, beaten, strung up on trees, not to mention officially discriminated against. Should they have packed up and left? Left for where? The U.S. was their home. Some former slaves went to Africa and founded Liberia, which is now just another war torn African nation. Meanwhile, the U.S. had a civil rights movement, and while racial issues remain, there's no dispute that African Americans are 100% Americans. Similarly, despite centuries of discrimination and bigotry capped off with the Holocaust, European Jews' home was Europe. Despite the centuries of discrimination, they still thrived in Europe, made scientific discoveries, formed businesses, built fortunes, created masterpieces of art and generally advanced society. If the Jews had stayed, I think a similar civil rights movement would have happened in Europe.

But what about the Jewish community that already existed in Palestine? Even leaving Post-WWII immigration out of it, shouldn't have there been an Israel created out of a portion of Ottoman Palestine?

Maybe Jews don't WANT to go back to Europe. The Jewish people have been persecuted for the last 2000 years and they finally have a state where they can control their own destiny. The whole point of a Jewish state is that Jews don't have to live Europe or elsewhere and be governed by leaders who are indifferent to their history and culture.

European antisemitism is at the highest level since WW2. It's a been widely discussed subject for the past few years. Many Jews in France fear for their safety and have been leaving the country as a result.

My grandfather is a Holocaust survivor and he would rather die than go back to Europe.

Persians to piss on the Jews. No Arab gives a crap about the gypsys of the Arab world.
Electricity is turned off; pay your bill instead of embezzelling the money. Better yet build your own electric plant instead of tunnels you losers.

Who is occupying what? Are we occupying the native peoples land here in the USa? Israel is the big bad bully?
The biggest enemy of the Arabs are themselves. They can't get along with their neighbors and they live in a caste system witht he haves and the mostly nots.

Load all the Arab countries with nuclear weapons and they would wipe themselves off the earth after first hitting Israel

In comment 13017650 BlueLou said:

Quote:

even if I disagree. And I apologize for the snarky and sarcastic happy Ramadan remark. That was uncalled for. The murder of the girl in her bed two days ago really set me off. I have a daughter exactly her age and am not around now to protect her, not that I am armed or even have a vestige of my former fighting ability. But I can still shout pretty loud and wake up our dog who's pretty irritable about strangers. Once she wakes up... Big Al no doubt there were heavy pressures on Arafat at Camp David not to sign a deal, any deal. But I think the war commencing afterwards was very much at his provocation. Some have written that it got way out of his control, and was the beginning of the end for him, politically.

No worries bluelou, and yes i always enjoy chatting with you too. I probably would have had a stronger response if it wasn't you who wrote that but your always a stand up guy on here and i respect you.

As for the girl, for sure thats terrible and heart breaking.

My argument is about the big picture though. There are numerous terrible stories on both sides. It was a summer or two ago ago when 3 Israeli settlers burned 16 yr old Mohammed Abu Khdeir alive (forensic evidence suggested he was alive when set ablaze) .

But theres a big picture to all of this which is what needs to be addressed in order for the other incidents to end.

In comment 13017693 muhajir said:

Quote:

Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc. Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS. Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel. But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews. Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free. Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.' The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!! Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'

Like I said before you are completely ignoring history. Why did 5 Arab nations simultaneously attack Israel after its deceleration in 1948?
Why did they do it again in 1967?
Why did they do it again in 1973?
Yes. The Arabs want to kill the Israelis. I know that because they have been trying for the last 70 years and it hasn't exactly been a secret. Maybe you also haven't noticed that the Palestinian idea of a 'struggle' is blowing up cafes and killing children while they sleep.

as the justification for whatever actions are taken against Israel:

Quote:

Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS.

Suicide bomber takes out people at a cafe in Israel - they deserve it for occupying land!

The leader of Iran talks about wiping Israel off the map - they deserve it for being in an area they shouldn't be!

If you look at history, Jews have been persecuted over and over by a host of countries and it is always spun against them. Not sure thinking that kind of rationalization is Pro-Zionist moreso that it seems backward and idiotic.

Hey, when Hitler tried to exterminate the Jews it was because they looked like rats and were money-grubbers, right? When the Russians went after the Jews it was because they were threats to Communism. Both of those persecutions were about one thing - gaining money and property from them.

Whether people believe this is a religious or political matter makes little difference. It IS an us vs. them mentality in the Arabic point of view. That same us vs. them mentality that exists in how non-Muslims should be treated. Or how women should be treated.

What I take away from looking at any of the conflicts that Jews have been part of throughout history, whether it is because they have wealth or they have land or they have a different ideology - there is a constant that pervades - hatred. Dress it up any way you want. Talk about it being purely about politics. About it being about occupation and the end result is the same - it is about hate. A hate that isn't denounced by Arabic leaders.

In comment 13017729 muhajir said:

Quote:

In comment 13017650 BlueLou said: Quote: even if I disagree. And I apologize for the snarky and sarcastic happy Ramadan remark. That was uncalled for. The murder of the girl in her bed two days ago really set me off. I have a daughter exactly her age and am not around now to protect her, not that I am armed or even have a vestige of my former fighting ability. But I can still shout pretty loud and wake up our dog who's pretty irritable about strangers. Once she wakes up... Big Al no doubt there were heavy pressures on Arafat at Camp David not to sign a deal, any deal. But I think the war commencing afterwards was very much at his provocation. Some have written that it got way out of his control, and was the beginning of the end for him, politically. No worries bluelou, and yes i always enjoy chatting with you too. I probably would have had a stronger response if it wasn't you who wrote that but your always a stand up guy on here and i respect you. As for the girl, for sure thats terrible and heart breaking. My argument is about the big picture though. There are numerous terrible stories on both sides. It was a summer or two ago ago when 3 Israeli settlers burned 16 yr old Mohammed Abu Khdeir alive (forensic evidence suggested he was alive when set ablaze) . But theres a big picture to all of this which is what needs to be addressed in order for the other incidents to end.

"On 30 November 2015 the two minors involved were found guilty of Khdeirs' murder, and were respectively sentenced to life and 21 years imprisonment on 4 February. On May 3, 2016, Ben David was sentenced to life in prison and an additional 20 years." Similar killings of Israelis are treated as martyrs and streets named after them.

In comment 13017704 GiveShockeyTheBall said:

Quote:

Maybe Jews don't WANT to go back to Europe. The Jewish people have been persecuted for the last 2000 years and they finally have a state where they can control their own destiny. The whole point of a Jewish state is that Jews don't have to live Europe or elsewhere and be governed by leaders who are indifferent to their history and culture. European antisemitism is at the highest level since WW2. It's a been widely discussed subject for the past few years. Many Jews in France fear for their safety and have been leaving the country as a result. My grandfather is a Holocaust survivor and he would rather die than go back to Europe.

Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. I'll be the first to tell you Europe has major problems but are people arguing that the MIDDLE EAST is a better alternative? Maybe Europe is indifferent to Jewish culture (it's increasingly indifferent to Christianity, too) but at least it's not overtly hostile to it, at least not anymore.

In comment 13017783 RB^2 said:

Quote:

In comment 13017704 GiveShockeyTheBall said: Quote: Maybe Jews don't WANT to go back to Europe. The Jewish people have been persecuted for the last 2000 years and they finally have a state where they can control their own destiny. The whole point of a Jewish state is that Jews don't have to live Europe or elsewhere and be governed by leaders who are indifferent to their history and culture. European antisemitism is at the highest level since WW2. It's a been widely discussed subject for the past few years. Many Jews in France fear for their safety and have been leaving the country as a result. My grandfather is a Holocaust survivor and he would rather die than go back to Europe. Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. I'll be the first to tell you Europe has major problems but are people arguing that the MIDDLE EAST is a better alternative? Maybe Europe is indifferent to Jewish culture (it's increasingly indifferent to Christianity, too) but at least it's not overtly hostile to it, at least not anymore.

This video showing a Jewish man walking the streets of Paris from about. a year back wsay otherwise.
Link - ( New Window )

some countries are supposedly adopting policies to make it enticing to Jews, but there's been a huge emigration from France in particular TO Israel.

I think the people who make the move know exactly what they are doing as far as "from the frying pan into the fire" goes and it's silly for you (RB^2) to think you know better. A lot of those who have left France, so I have heard, have done so because of where they see France headed over the NEXT 10-20 years. As much as what it is like right now. But it's been a good wave of immigration. Go to a Kosher wine festival in Israel and you will hear spoken about equal parts Hebrew, English, and French in clusters here and there.

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A female terrorist approached a guard post near one of the entrances to the Tomb of the Patriarchs (Maarat Hamachpela), in Hebron. The terrorist pulled out a knife and tried to stab a Border Policeman. The Border Policeman managed to accurately shoot and neutralize the terrorist with no harm to himself or anyone else, according to the police. Update: The terrorist is dead. There are reports that this terrorist is from the same family as the terrorist who murdered Hallel Ariel yesterday, according to Elior Levy, a reporter from Yediot Achronot.

And this in Netanya, nowhere near the occupied territory:

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A Haredi man, 40 and a woman, 62, were injured, one seriously, one mildly, in a stabbing attack by a terrorist on Shoham Street near Sheshet Hayamim Street near the Netanya open market area. The two victims, one of them Haredi, were treated by MDA and evacuated to Laniado hospital. One woman was treated for panic attack. Laniado hospital reported that one victim was stabbed in the back, the other in the chest. The terrorist, a resident of the Tul Karem area in Samaria, was shot dead by an armed civilian.

Busy day. For me all the terrorists or attempted terrorists shot dead should be noted very clearly when tallying up "death tolls" attributed to the Israelis, period.

I mean I couldn't be more sick of the tally's some like to present as if murdering a child in her bed and shooting a clown in the act of stabbing someone in the back are morally equivalent. They are not

In comment 13017693 muhajir said:

Quote:

Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc. Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS. Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel. But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews. Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free. Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.' The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!! Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'

How are Christians and Jews making out in other Arab countries that are not at war with Israel? Have their numbers dwindled in these countries, and why?

I don't know how anyone can condone the killing of innocent people.
This just makes us less humane.
There is no justification.

People who attempt to defend or rationalize these actions are as guilty as those who perform the acts.

I am sick and tired of what our world has become and I fear that there will be tipping point that will result in a backlash of catastrophic proportions.

I think that this is exactly what the the zealots desire. Instability leading to anarchy and a change at any cost.

Be vigilant and prepared.

and the reactions are fairly telling.

Where is mujahir justifying Palestinian response? He's providing context for a sentiment and combatting the idea of an overly simplistic 'good guy, bad guy' narrative most people here adhere to. Plenty of blame to go around in the middle east.

However, BBI shows its typical form here. Arabs are described as 'animals', 'constantly at war with each other (never mind the fact its coming from European descendants which warred with each other mercilessly as well until about 75 years ago)', etc...from the usual suspects.

Didn't own all the good vineyards in Israel...Gotta share the wealth.

In comment 13017844 MOOPS said:

Quote:

In comment 13017693 muhajir said: Quote: Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc. Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS. Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel. But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews. Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free. Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.' The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!! Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end' How are Christians and Jews making out in other Arab countries that are not at war with Israel? Have their numbers dwindled in these countries, and why?

I have not heard of any attacks on Churches or Synagogues in Saudi Arabia.

In comment 13017855 Patrick77 said:

Quote:

Didn't own all the good vineyards in Israel...Gotta share the wealth.

Haha plenty of great vineyards around Hebron, what I consider some of the greatest vineyard land in the world for red grapes, are owned by Arab Muslims. I don't want to own their land, I just want them to replace their table grape vines with wine grapes.

In comment 13017863 BlueLou said:

Quote:

In comment 13017855 Patrick77 said: Quote: Didn't own all the good vineyards in Israel...Gotta share the wealth. Haha plenty of great vineyards around Hebron, what I consider some of the greatest vineyard land in the world for red grapes, are owned by Arab Muslims. I don't want to own their land, I just want them to replace their table grape vines with wine grapes.

Haha glad to hear it. I find the posts you make about your world and the interactions in it very interesting.

Not that it would ever be possible or even remotely acceptable but is there any push from a noticeable group of people within Israel to basically expel everyone and consolidate the territory completely into essentially a porcupine surrounded by enemies?

Not that it would help anything, I just always wondered why it would or even could be worse than the status quo.

In comment 13017856 Big Al said:

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In comment 13017844 MOOPS said: Quote: In comment 13017693 muhajir said: Quote: Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc. Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS. Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel. But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews. Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free. Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.' The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!! Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end' How are Christians and Jews making out in other Arab countries that are not at war with Israel? Have their numbers dwindled in these countries, and why? I have not heard of any attacks on Churches or Synagogues in Saudi Arabia.

And you won't. Churches and Synagogues are prohibited in Saudi Arabia, as is public worship other than the Muslim religion.

In comment 13017594 Donky said:

Quote:

In comment 13017583 AP in Halfmoon said: Quote: No one is denying that absolutely and they are our allies. However the Jewish leaders are war criminals find scum as well. There is no symmetry in this situation. They are the occupying power and thus cause of their annexation war criminals under the Geneva conventions.

Jewish leaders are scum?

You are nothing more than an anti Semitic scum bag who I guarantee wouldn't have the balls to spew that crap to anybody's face

Applies to all parties involved. Brutality has no exclusive religious affiliation.

I don't want to hear excuses or explanations for bad behavior.

Quote:

Plenty of blame to go around in the middle east.

But the blame seems to be pretty subjective, no? Israel seems to get blamed for a shitload of things, even the way they handle terrorism.

I've said it before and I'll continue to beat this drum. Where is the Arabic condemnation for acts of terrorism or hatred? Where is the furor from other Arabic leaders when one speaks out about Israel? Why are Palestinians made into martyrs for their actions?

It doesn't take much to say plenty of blame to go around if one will blame Israel for killing a terrorist or for having a ridiculous amount of security.

If the prevaling thought in the Arabic world isn't that Israel should be destroyed, shouldn't there be lots of commentary denouncing the calls to take action against them? Shouldn't it be easy to find Arabic opposition to the rhetoric?

Face it, most responses that discuss the ME that lessen the burden on the Arabic states pretty much centers around trying to invalidate that Israel belongs there. That doesn't seem like a balanced share of the blame when several nations fail to recognize another one and are openly hostile towards them.

In comment 13017874 MOOPS said:

Quote:

In comment 13017856 Big Al said: Quote: In comment 13017844 MOOPS said: Quote: In comment 13017693 muhajir said: Quote: Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc. Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS. Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel. But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews. Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free. Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.' The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!! Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end' How are Christians and Jews making out in other Arab countries that are not at war with Israel? Have their numbers dwindled in these countries, and why? I have not heard of any attacks on Churches or Synagogues in Saudi Arabia. And you won't. Churches and Synagogues are prohibited in Saudi Arabia, as is public worship other than the Muslim religion.

Is the UN aware of this and have they condemned this human rights violation?

In comment 13017875 phillygiant said:

Quote:

You are nothing more than an anti Semitic scum bag who I guarantee wouldn't have the balls to spew that crap to anybody's face

Actually he's a troll who should be ignored until the mods suspend his account for the 505h time.

where is the Arabic condemnation of acts of terror?

Its plenty, its numerous do a simple google search. This is possibly one of the worst misconceptions out there. Its got to be one of the worst strawmen arguments doled out. Usually by ultra rightwing bigots looking to cement their selective rationale against Muslims:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-eteraz/the-myth-of-muslim-condem_b_67904.html

It eventually be 505, but not before August.

You think that the violence is limited to Muslims killing Jews you are mistaken.

Ask the Coptic Christians in Egypt about the destruction of their churches and the killings.
Ask the Syriac Christians, the Armenians, the Nigerian Christians,the Pakistani Hindi and Christians, the Indonesian Christians.

Google these people and see what comes up.

but it is the elephant in the room people won't go near.

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Arabs are described as 'animals', 'constantly at war with each other

By Western standards, they are animals. It is a culture that breeds intolerance and oppression. It is a culture that restricts cultural expression, stills stones people for adultery, has rigid standards that apply to both law and society.

It is a culture that openly executes Christians and other non-followers of Islam without repurcussions - kicks them right out of their homes and land and forces them to convert or die. It is a culture that makes martyrs out of terrorists, and ridiculously justifies any attack if their religious icon has been slandered or depicted.

Until the Arabic world polices themselves, there will always be conflict because they don't think there's anything wrong with that way of life at the leadership level and the vast majority of people are either too brainwashed or scared as fuck to do anything about it.

There will continue to be issues with Arabic nations because Western culture is really too damn forgiving and won't call what goes on exactly what it is - a serial violation of human rights on an epidemic scale. Because when they do, we hear some happy horseshit about Islam being a religion of peace or we hear about the poor Arabs who have to put up with the militant Jews.

We will endure threats because we won't do what the Islamic states do - cleanse the areas of non-followers. So, we will have suicide bombers have extra leeway because profiling is abhorrent. We will get threatened for asking a Muslim woman to show her face. They use the very tenets of our culture to operate a war of terrorism, and frankly there isn't much to stop them, because people who live to cause disruption and terror are not easily stopped.

And yes, that rant goes outside the bounds of the discussion with Israel, but it is a cultural acceptance of violence and exclusion that most certainly applies.

In comment 13017872 Patrick77 said:

Quote:

In comment 13017863 BlueLou said: Quote: In comment 13017855 Patrick77 said: Quote: Didn't own all the good vineyards in Israel...Gotta share the wealth. Haha plenty of great vineyards around Hebron, what I consider some of the greatest vineyard land in the world for red grapes, are owned by Arab Muslims. I don't want to own their land, I just want them to replace their table grape vines with wine grapes. Haha glad to hear it. I find the posts you make about your world and the interactions in it very interesting. Not that it would ever be possible or even remotely acceptable but is there any push from a noticeable group of people within Israel to basically expel everyone and consolidate the territory completely into essentially a porcupine surrounded by enemies? Not that it would help anything, I just always wondered why it would or even could be worse than the status quo.

Well yeah that's what the settlements are all about at one level, an ultimate desire to really "occupy" the West Bank by the far right religious parties. To a lesser extent just to preserve the Jewish heritage cites in the West Bank of which there are many. I mean, at some point that was Judea, and Jewish territory long before there even was the religion of Islam.

Those who take the "promised land by G-d literally" think of Israel as naturally extending to the Jordan River, the border of Jordan.

The problem is what do you do with the Palestinians? It's not as if any other Arab country wants them, just the opposite, they won't accept them in as refugees or as potential citizens.

No one disputes your point that the rhetoric from some Arab leaders is ugly. Those leaders need Israel as a rallying point to keep power. Other than that, I disagree with much of what you write. As an example, many Muslim and Arabs speak out against terror. You're not likely to hear them because it doesn't sell on cable news.

If you are questioning the 'subjectivity' of the culpability of both sides (Arabs and Jews) in contributing to the state of affairs in Israel today I suggest you reconsider how versed you are in this subject.

"I've said it before and I'll continue to beat this drum. Where is the Arabic condemnation for acts of terrorism or hatred?"

First of all the West Bank is not occupied territory, it is disputed territory.

There are many Arab states and even more Muslim states, there is 1 Jewish state, which is the size of New Jersey. Look at a map of the middle east.

The goal of the Arabs is and has always been to destroy Israel, the 2 state solution is just something to make that wish easier.

The so called “Palestinians” already have a state, it is called Jordan. After WWI the Turks lost their empire and all of Israel, Gaza, the “West Bank” and JORDAN was part of the British Mandate for Palestine. This was the first time in history that any entity known as Palestine ever had defined borders. Palestine was a term used in the West for a region, never a country. The land has been called many things over the years. But in the middle east it was never called Palestine, if you don’t believe me look at a map of the (Muslim) Ottoman Empire and look at the names of the different provinces. You will see that the Muslim Turks did not call the land Palestine. It was actually part of 3 different provinces: Jerusalem, Beirut and Syrian provinces. This is what Arab leaders have said in the past about Palestine.

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it." -- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi-- Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not" -- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946

King Abdullah in 1948: "Palestine and Jordan are one..."

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." -- Ahmed Shukairy, United Nations Security Council, 1956

Zahir Muhsein- executive committee member of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO, now Palestinian Authority)
March 31, 1977 interview in the Dutch newspaper Trouw:

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

King Hussein in 1981: "The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan."

The leaders of Jordan are actually from Mecca, they are known as Hashemites, why isn’t Jordan ever called occupied Palestine?

The Qur’an says that Israel belongs to the Jews, Palestine is not mentioned once in the Qur’an, Jerusalem Is Not Mentioned Once In the Qur’an. Muslims did not conquer Jerusalem until after Mohammad’s death. Muslims pray with their back towards Jerusalem

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'” [Qur'an 17:104]

"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favor of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]

“Thus it was, but we made the children of Israel inheritors of it.” [Qur’an 26:59]

“Children of Israel! Call to mind the favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations.” [Qur’an 2:47]

The 1948 and 1967 Israeli/Arab Wars Created The Same Amount Of Jewish Refugees From Arab Lands.

They Traveled From As Far Away as Moracco, Yemen, and Iraq.

They came to a new country with nothing and had to learn a new language and culture.

They became productive citizens of Israel.

Most of the Arab refugees moved a few miles either east our south.

They are stuck in refugee status to be used as pawns against Israel in the propaganda war. Jordan and Israel are the only countries that ever granted any of them citizenship.

The early Zionists didn’t just settle the land, they bought the land, piece by piece at 10 times the price from absentee Arab land owners, and then they had to fight for the land against the entire Arab world.

The Arabs and other Muslims could not defeat Israel threw conventional wars or terrorism, so now they do it through lies and Propaganda. Just look what they wrote in the 1964 PLO Charter before Jordan lost the West Bank to Israel in 1967.

Article 24. This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.

If you don’t believe what I wrote, go look it all up.

So what is my solution?

Gaza can become part of Egypt again. The Arabs in the West Bank were all citizens of Jordan before 1967, they should all be allowed to move to Jordan proper if they wish, or stay where they are and be governed by Jordan. They should also all be allowed to move to any Arab nation that forced out their Jews. What gets lost in all of this over time is the fact that Israel won the wars, get over it Muslim world.









The West Bank (really Judea and Samaria) cannot be given up for security reasons. This video will explain. - ( New Window )

of the Arabic leaders that drives the despicable acts.

The vast majority of Arabs are the kindest, open-armed people you'll meet. I have lifelong friends in Jordan and Egypt who have opened up their homes and their generosity to me and my family.

But the general Arabic populace is unable to stop the crazy policies set out by the leaders because they in effect run dictatorship states.

Take someone like Jason Rezaian who is an Irani-American who loved his country so much he went back there during uncertain times, and he was jailed for over a year because he's a journalist. The people have no power and the leaders force them to live in a perpetual 3rd world state with policies and social edicts from the Dark Ages.

Until Arabic nations (their leaders) band together and stop to persecution of non-Muslims and eradicate the policies that oppress teh populace, there will be no growth.


And let me be clear here - my vitriol isn't directed at the average Muslim - it is directed squarely on the leaders who perpetrate crimes in the name of Allah and who keep spreading propoganda and fear. They are the face of Islamic society and it is probably the biggest threat that we face today. A few bad apples are spoiling it for millions of Muslims.

Israel is in violation of international law.

Sorry but some of the comments in this thread simply reinforce how little most know of the situation. The Arabs-- who are these bloodthirsty savages? Is it me and my large Christian family? The deceased American born wife of former King Hussein, the nomad from Chad, the Saudi Bedouin, the farmer in Iraq the French speaking Algerian, the Spanish speaking Moroccan or the Italian speaking Tunisian? How many realize that Iranians are not Arabs? Nor are the Afghans or Pakistanis.

How about the Jews? Who are these people? Are they the descendants of the victims of mass murder in the Holocaust, the American born and educated immigrant to Israel, a Russian speaking refugee or the descendant of many who never left the Middle East and were living there when Israel was created?

Hatred is the easy response and the reason there are so many gross oversimplifications by both sides of the debate. Go to Europe, Africa, Asia or the Middle East and ask for a description of the Americans. It is the only way to appreciate the difficulty of branding a culture or a people with labels.

is always present in the ME because the term Arab has become muddled.

For example, If we are looking at what the average person knows, most probably don't realize that Arabs are Semites, so when somebody talks about being Anti-Semite, it is almost always referred to in the persecution of Jews.

spot on. Many here should be embarrassed by what they have posted. I'd like to think I haven't of course, other than to point out some bad comments and to add some debating points...:)

why do you use the propaganda language of the Arab world and their antisemitic sympathizers in Europe?

Perhaps you (and others) are unfamiliar with the history.

There is no Occupation. There never was. The land is legally disputed. The partition plan was never accepted by the Arabs. Israel accepted it. Judea, Samaria (the so called West Bank--but do you know any other river bank in the world that is more than a couple of hundred meters wide at most?) and Gaza were then used to attack Israel and illegally "occupied" by Jordan and Egypt respectively. This was never recognized by the western world save a couple of European countries.

In 1967, in a defensive war, Israel took over the land known as the West Bank (the widest river bank to ever exist with miles upon miles of mountains on the bank) and Gaza. According to international law, this land is legally in dispute. Israel actually has the strongest legal claims to it but has never annexed it for various reasons not relevant here.

The UN Security Council (never a friend of Israel) voted quite clearly that Israel was not expected to give up all the land. It was to retire to secure and recognized boundaries. The requirement to be secure and recognized is there to ensure that it is negotiated with a party that will recognize those borders and that Israel won't be pressured to retreat to borders that are indefensible.

At any time since 1967, the opportunity to negotiate with successive Govts of Israel was there. The Arab demands remain maximalist. That is they insist on the return of the entire Judea and Samaria (contrary to 242) as well as the return of all "refugees"*** from 1948 and 1967. The return of these "refugees" would effectively end Israel as the Jewish state. So the Arabs want a Palestine AND a binational state of Israel that they will take over with "refugees" and birthrate.

(***refugees by common international practice refers to first generation refugees who fled the land they were fleeing from. In Israel, refugees is meant to include those who left in 1948 and 1967 as well as their millions of descendants. Not to mention that these "refugees" consist of a majority who left on their own accord after being urged to by ARAB governments so Jews could be exterminated without them around.)

Effectively, the Arabs aren't negotiating, they are demanding and if they don't get what they demand, they kill. They educate this to their children in school, on the airwaves and in their mosques.

When YOU speak of "occupation", you legitimize the narrative that they have conjured. And you therefore harm the cause and country you do care about very much.

In comment 13017970 scouser said:

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Israel is in violation of international law.

actually, they are not. See my last post. Saying it over and over and having people "believe" it, doesn't make it so. The land had no recognized sovereign. Israel took it in a defensive war. They have had no interlocutor to make peace with and set borders who cared to negotiate in good faith. And that is why there has been no settlement of the dispute.

In comment 13017916 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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but it is the elephant in the room people won't go near. Quote: Arabs are described as 'animals', 'constantly at war with each other By Western standards, they are animals. It is a culture that breeds intolerance and oppression. It is a culture that restricts cultural expression, stills stones people for adultery, has rigid standards that apply to both law and society. It is a culture that openly executes Christians and other non-followers of Islam without repurcussions - kicks them right out of their homes and land and forces them to convert or die. It is a culture that makes martyrs out of terrorists, and ridiculously justifies any attack if their religious icon has been slandered or depicted. Until the Arabic world polices themselves, there will always be conflict because they don't think there's anything wrong with that way of life at the leadership level and the vast majority of people are either too brainwashed or scared as fuck to do anything about it. There will continue to be issues with Arabic nations because Western culture is really too damn forgiving and won't call what goes on exactly what it is - a serial violation of human rights on an epidemic scale. Because when they do, we hear some happy horseshit about Islam being a religion of peace or we hear about the poor Arabs who have to put up with the militant Jews. We will endure threats because we won't do what the Islamic states do - cleanse the areas of non-followers. So, we will have suicide bombers have extra leeway because profiling is abhorrent. We will get threatened for asking a Muslim woman to show her face. They use the very tenets of our culture to operate a war of terrorism, and frankly there isn't much to stop them, because people who live to cause disruption and terror are not easily stopped. And yes, that rant goes outside the bounds of the discussion with Israel, but it is a cultural acceptance of violence and exclusion that most certainly applies.

Very interesting. Thank you for addressing the 'elephant in the room'. Im guessing American Christian culture is the gold standard for human rights and justice?

Millions of Africans enslaved, 250-300 million native Americans wiped out and their land stolen, killed, given disease and parasite infested clothes, having their buffalo live stock slaughtered so that they could die off, women raped.. then we have WWI, WWII (dropped two atomic bombs on civilian inhabited islands.. both bombs dropped just days apart) Vietnam where 1 MILLION vietnamese were killed because we didnt want them to become communist (very tolerant right?), more recent times going into Iraq and blowing the entire country up because of the tons of WMD that was never found, yet America is still there (Along with all of its oil companies raping the land of its resources).

How about black people being lynched right in the middle of the street or in a park where American couples would literally have a picnic while watching the lynching as if they were watching a chic flic on a date.

Veryyyyyy noble and peaceful culture indeed! Rest of the world def needs to take notes.

The tale is sordid indeed, but that number is way inflated.

Quote:

The Legal Basis of Israel’s Rights in the Disputed Territories Amb. Alan Baker Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window)Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window)Click to share on Google+ (Opens in new window)Click to share on LinkedIn (Opens in new window)Click to print (Opens in new window)Click to email this to a friend (Opens in new window) 1. Upon Israel’s taking control of the area in 1967, the 1907 Hague Rules on Land Warfare and the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) were not considered applicable to the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) territory, as the Kingdom of Jordan, prior to 1967, was never the prior legal sovereign, and in any event has since renounced any claim to sovereign rights via a vis the territory. 2. Israel, as administering power pending a negotiated final determination as to the fate of the territory, nevertheless chose to implement the humanitarian provisions of the Geneva convention and other norms of international humanitarian law in order to ensure the basic day-to-day rights of the local population as well as Israel’s own rights to protect its forces and to utilize those parts of land that were not under local private ownership. 3. Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, prohibiting the mass transfer of population into occupied territory as practiced by Germany during the second world war, was neither relevant nor was ever intended to apply to Israelis choosing to reside in Judea and Samaria. 4. Accordingly, claims by the UN, European capitals, organizations and individuals that Israeli settlement activity is in violation of international law therefore have no legal basis whatsoever. 5. Similarly, the oft-used term “occupied Palestinian territories” is totally inaccurate and false. The territories are neither occupied nor Palestinian. No legal instrument has ever determined that the Palestinians have sovereignty or that the territories belong to them 6. The territories of Judea and Samaria remain in dispute between Israel and the Palestinians, subject only to the outcome of permanent status negotiations between them. 7. The legality of the presence of Israel’s communities in the area stems from the historic, indigenous and legal rights of the Jewish people to settle in the area, granted pursuant to valid and binding international legal instruments recognized and accepted by the international community. These rights cannot be denied or placed in question. 8. The Palestinian leadership, in the still valid 1995 Interim Agreement (Oslo 2), agreed to, and accepted Israel’s continued presence in Judea and Samaria pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations, without any restriction on either side regarding planning, zoning or construction of homes and communities. Hence, claims that Israel’s presence in the area is illegal have no basis. 9. The Palestinian leadership undertook in the Oslo Accords, to settle all outstanding issues, including borders, settlements, security, Jerusalem and refugees, by negotiation only and not through unilateral measures. The Palestinian call for a freeze on settlement activity as a precondition for returning to negotiation is a violation of the agreements. 10. Any attempt, through the UN or otherwise, to unilaterally change the status of the territory would violate Palestinian commitments set out in the Oslo Accords and prejudice the integrity and continued validity of the various agreements with Israel, thereby opening up the situation to possible reciprocal unilateral action by Israel. Filed Under: International Law Tags: alan baker, Israel's rights, Israeli sovereignty, Judea and Samaria About Amb. Alan Baker Amb. Alan Baker is Director of the Institute for Contemporary Affairs at the Jerusalem Center and the head of the Global Law Forum. He participated in the negotiation and drafting of the Oslo Accords with the Palestinians, as well as agreements and peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon. He served as legal adviser and deputy director-general of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs and as Israel’s ambassador to Canada.

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very thoughtful

Its very time consuming to keep up with a rambler because they'll just keep going into new topics and the discussion becomes a pandora's box of nonesense. So in other words stop rambling pls

that's the type of selective finger wagging most here specialize in....tough to take that away.

Amazing how many people who comment so authoritatively on the middle east and the 'savages' probably endorsed the Iraq War .......

Muhajir, if you hate your country so much, why don't you leave?

referred to Arabs as "bloodthisty savages" was muhajir

In comment 13018041 njm said:

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The tale is sordid indeed, but that number is way inflated.

Do you want to go with a smaller figure? 50 million?

In comment 13017918 BlueLou said:

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In comment 13017872 Patrick77 said: Quote: In comment 13017863 BlueLou said: Quote: In comment 13017855 Patrick77 said: Quote: Didn't own all the good vineyards in Israel...Gotta share the wealth. Haha plenty of great vineyards around Hebron, what I consider some of the greatest vineyard land in the world for red grapes, are owned by Arab Muslims. I don't want to own their land, I just want them to replace their table grape vines with wine grapes. Haha glad to hear it. I find the posts you make about your world and the interactions in it very interesting. Not that it would ever be possible or even remotely acceptable but is there any push from a noticeable group of people within Israel to basically expel everyone and consolidate the territory completely into essentially a porcupine surrounded by enemies? Not that it would help anything, I just always wondered why it would or even could be worse than the status quo. Well yeah that's what the settlements are all about at one level, an ultimate desire to really "occupy" the West Bank by the far right religious parties. To a lesser extent just to preserve the Jewish heritage cites in the West Bank of which there are many. I mean, at some point that was Judea, and Jewish territory long before there even was the religion of Islam. Those who take the "promised land by G-d literally" think of Israel as naturally extending to the Jordan River, the border of Jordan. The problem is what do you do with the Palestinians? It's not as if any other Arab country wants them, just the opposite, they won't accept them in as refugees or as potential citizens.

with all due respect Lou, you really don't know your history. Most "settlements" were established long ago by secular Israeli govts and placed strategically for military purposes. Not all...but most. Labor established the Jordan Valley communities. That is because that is the security belt of the rest of Israel proper. Without the Jordan valley, Israel's narrow waste could be overrun by attacks from the east. The land from just east of Tel Aviv would be contiguous and controlled all the way thru Iraq. If Jordan were ever overthrown (or felt compelled to turn away from the west), there would be no buffer at all. And those are called indefensible borders.

The religious settlers you refer to get lots of publicity but they aren't even a majority of the settler population. Though they are doing G-d's work these days by quietly but with great strength reminding Israelis of why Israel is actually a Jewish state. Because without the claim to the land that Jews have, why not Uganda?

In comment 13018060 Elisha10 said:

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Muhajir, if you hate your country so much, why don't you leave?

Elisha I was wondering who the first fool to write that was going to be. Congrats. Try and stay on topic.

In comment 13018060 Elisha10 said:

Quote:

Muhajir, if you hate your country so much, why don't you leave?

And you put in quotes I hadn't thought to include. Quotes that show the farce and fraud that has been the "Palestinian" cause from the very beginning. There never was a Palestinian country or people. It's a massive fraud and establishing a Palestine would only set the borders for the next war of survival for Israel. And it would come. Because the PA has shown the same corruption and greed as every other Arab country while Hamas has shown the same genocidal intentions borne of their radical Islamic faith. So either the secular PA would feel the need to go to war to distract from their failures and dishonesty in governance or the religious Hamas would be compelled to go to war because of faith.

I'm still waiting for you or the rest of the anti Israel crowd to respond to my first post at 3:37 where I dismantle all the Arab lies, try to disprove anything that I wrote.

In comment 13018071 muhajir said:

Quote:

In comment 13018041 njm said: Quote: The tale is sordid indeed, but that number is way inflated. Do you want to go with a smaller figure? 50 million?

Actually, that's the figure most commonly used for the indigenous population of North, Central and South America combined. Of course there are different estimates as were are talking about 400 years ago. I linked Wikipedia, which I don't think has an agenda.



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two nights ago, has a single Arab or Muslim leader expressed remorse or condemnation?

Because I just googled it and didn't find one.

Your a goon and go away. Your original post was full of bullshit strawmen anyway, Mujahir isn't trying to make this an us vs them discussion...

In comment 13018091 mort christenson said:

Quote:

There never was a Palestinian country or people.

But there were promises made in the 1914-1920 period related what was EVENTUALLY named Palestine to every group, Jewish, Arab Christian and Arab Muslim who resided in the area at that time.

Try to disprove anything I wrote.

In comment 13018100 Elisha10 said:

Quote:

I'm still waiting for you or the rest of the anti Israel crowd to respond to my first post at 3:37 where I dismantle all the Arab lies, try to disprove anything that I wrote.

Response is Israel is currently occupying the West Bank and Gaza
...fact. I dont waste my breath on anyone that pretends Palestine and the Palestinians don't exist and that the land isnt internationally recognized as occupied. Thats just playing pretend.

And Using divine right to the land may jive in bible/torah studies class but isn't a real world justification so no need to share biblical verses (and certainly not Quranic ones that you interpreted completely wrong). Thats my response.

In comment 13018108 BlueLou said:

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two nights ago, has a single Arab or Muslim leader expressed remorse or condemnation? Because I just googled it and didn't find one.

Lou - There was an Imam from a moderate mosque in San Francisco who did so on CNN some night this week. Forget whether it was Anderson Cooper of Don Lemon. Of course it was stated during the interview he's on an ISIS death list.

Then why did Arabs say for years that there was no such thing as a Palestinian, those quotes were not made up. The 1977 quote explains it all, as does the 1964 PLO Charter article 24, which was then changed after 1967.

...let me add to the second part.......

Anyone who cannot accept a critique of their country and insists on being a jingoist is a fairly low form of scum.

And your posts certainly fits the bill.

Only the troll on this thread is scum

Quote:

Well yeah that's what the settlements are all about at one level, an ultimate desire to really "occupy" the West Bank by the far right religious parties.

Of course lots of settlements are for security reasons, others are reestablishing Jewish communities that were exterminated in the initial war in '48. Plus I was talking of the settlements I know intimately and have either lived or worked in them.

fair enough. The chief offender shouldn't instigate with nonsense, I should not have taken the bait.

I brought up historical facts that just happen to not fit in with the current Arab narrative, if anything I said is not true why can't you disprove them, you can't re-write history. Why would Arabs make these statements in the past and then try to change them?

literally, yes. Figuratively, no. Just read the posts. Rather insincere of you......

good for you. You choose not to answer the posts that give you the most trouble because they are based on fact.

And the world should know that Arab culture is tribal. The state system and borders and all of that troublesome stuff doesn't work in Arab culture. That is why the whole Middle East is falling apart. Were there no Israel, it would still be falling apart.

Have at it. I am out for the weekend.

no one is calling Arabs bloodthirsty savages whole cloth. Not at all. Rather, people are calling those radicals perverting Islam for destructive means out for the things for which they have said and the actions they have taken. Unfortunately, many in positions of power in the Arab-Muslim world echo these positions.

It does not matter whatever the hell quotes were ascribed to some Arabic leaders years ago. Anyone using the Palestine does not really exist or have a right to exist is ignoring the current circumstances. It does not matter how we got here. This is the reality on the ground. Its a recognized state.

BTW, just so you are aware........Im fairly pro-Israel. Have done business there. Would do so again. No boycotter here. Israel should defend itself vigorously. Its a great state. But to cast aside any legitimate critique of their policy and their government and then to lambaste and slur Muslims as a whole in the process is my big objection.

a perfect opportunity to respond with cogent, fair arguments in this debate was just given to you both.

And you both minimized three pretty thoughtful and fact based posts down to two-bit one liners that are too facile to respect even a little bit.

You both just failed miserably.

I didn't slur Muslims, I have Muslim friends. All I did was bring up historical facts about the history of the region and the truth about the desire of most of the muslim world towards Israel. Israel can not have a country that is 10 miles wide surrounded by enemies. The Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank would be happier being a part of Jordan or Egypt. There are many Arab and Muslim states, there is one Jewish state.

In comment 13017902 njm said:

Quote:

In comment 13017875 phillygiant said: Quote: You are nothing more than an anti Semitic scum bag who I guarantee wouldn't have the balls to spew that crap to anybody's face Actually he's a troll who should be ignored until the mods suspend his account for the 505h time.

interesting that my gf is Jewish and half my friends. Sad that morons can't distinguish between criticizing a government with criticizing a group of people. Interestingly you agree with Hitler on this issue who defended himself of criticism by claiming his dissidents were anti german.

In comment 13018239 Donky said:

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In comment 13017902 njm said: Quote: In comment 13017875 phillygiant said: Quote: You are nothing more than an anti Semitic scum bag who I guarantee wouldn't have the balls to spew that crap to anybody's face Actually he's a troll who should be ignored until the mods suspend his account for the 505h time. interesting that my gf is Jewish and half my friends. Sad that morons can't distinguish between criticizing a government with criticizing a group of people. Interestingly you agree with Hitler on this issue who defended himself of criticism by claiming his dissidents were anti german.

What about your wife?

Maybe if there were a current Arab leader like King Faisal there would be peace in the region. Maybe if all the Israel haters take a look at the following link there can be peace and Israel can help them develop their countries. Not all Arabs are scum!

After World War I, the Sharif of Mecca, Hussein bin Ali and his son, the King Feisal of Hijaz and then of Iraq, proclaimed pro-Zionist views.[13] According to Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi, the Wahhabi position, in contrast, was extremely anti-Zionist.[14

On March 23, 1918, Al Qibla, the daily newspaper of Mecca, printed the following words in support of the Balfour Declaration of 1917:

The resources of the country [Palestine] are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants (...) we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, and America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons [abna'ihi-l-asliyin], for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles [jaliya] to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and all things connected to the land.[15]

On 3 January 1919, Hussein's son, king Faisal I of Iraq and Dr. Chaim Weizmann, President of the World Zionist Organization signed the Faisal–Weizmann Agreement for Arab-Jewish cooperation, in which Faisal conditionally accepted the Balfour Declaration based on the fulfilment of British wartime promises of development of a Jewish homeland in Palestine and on which subject he stated:

We Arabs... look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement. Our deputation here in Paris is fully acquainted with the proposals submitted yesterday by the Zionist Organisation to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as moderate and proper. We will do our best, in so far as we are concerned, to help them through; we will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home... I look forward, and my people with me look forward, to a future in which we will help you and you will help us, so that the countries in which we are mutually interested may once again take their places in the community of the civilised peoples of the world.[16][17][18]



Muslim Supporters of Israel - ( New Window )

i did not accuse you of anything other than two things: a facile argument based in the quotable of Arab leadership about the legitimacy of the Palestine state. And the ridiculous jingoistic response to Mujahir.

Never labeled you that way. Your post to Mujahir was quite ridiculous.

In comment 13017916 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

but it is the elephant in the room people won't go near. Quote: Arabs are described as 'animals', 'constantly at war with each other By Western standards, they are animals. It is a culture that breeds intolerance and oppression. It is a culture that restricts cultural expression, stills stones people for adultery, has rigid standards that apply to both law and society. It is a culture that openly executes Christians and other non-followers of Islam without repurcussions - kicks them right out of their homes and land and forces them to convert or die. It is a culture that makes martyrs out of terrorists, and ridiculously justifies any attack if their religious icon has been slandered or depicted. Until the Arabic world polices themselves, there will always be conflict because they don't think there's anything wrong with that way of life at the leadership level and the vast majority of people are either too brainwashed or scared as fuck to do anything about it. There will continue to be issues with Arabic nations because Western culture is really too damn forgiving and won't call what goes on exactly what it is - a serial violation of human rights on an epidemic scale. Because when they do, we hear some happy horseshit about Islam being a religion of peace or we hear about the poor Arabs who have to put up with the militant Jews. We will endure threats because we won't do what the Islamic states do - cleanse the areas of non-followers. So, we will have suicide bombers have extra leeway because profiling is abhorrent. We will get threatened for asking a Muslim woman to show her face. They use the very tenets of our culture to operate a war of terrorism, and frankly there isn't much to stop them, because people who live to cause disruption and terror are not easily stopped. And yes, that rant goes outside the bounds of the discussion with Israel, but it is a cultural acceptance of violence and exclusion that most certainly applies.

Really? What percentage of Muslims engage in such behavior? The ones living in America or Indinesia the worlds most populated Muslim state? Certainly the countries we are allied with who brutalize their own people and block democracy. Certainly the al Qaeda group he we organized and trained. Certainly our old friend Hussein who with out chemical weapons and military weapons killed s million Iranians and gassed his own people to death while we blocked any attempt by the in to stop him. Certainly our old friend Suharto one of the worst killers of the 20 Th century who with out aid carried out murder in East Timor exterminating 200k Timorese while also raping and pillaging topped off by the beheadings of 500 children. Certainly our friend Erdogan who is accused of burning 500 people alive as well as killing 10k Kurds. Or perhaps the long list of dictators in the Anerucas we installed and supported who killed by some estimates 500k people with the most gruesome forms of torture and muredering priests. Or perhaps our old friend the shah who we installed by overturning a democracy because it dared to profit off its own oil. A shah who killed tens of thousands and tortured any one who dare open his mouth. What about the 2 million dead in Vietnam? The 500k we killed in Iraq? Or the additional 509k we killed in Iraq due to sanctions where the head in chief resigned in protest over what we called genicide? How about Emanuel constant and Duvalier our friends in Haiti who butchers people in a soccer stadium on tv who we then help escape the country and let him live his life out in queens. Constant our ally was accused of killing 5 k people. Haiti asked he be sent back to Haiti for war crimes trials. We said no cause he would spill the beans on our involvement. Yet when the Talibsn denied us bin laden we bombed them. This logically Haiti has the right to bomb us. 400 years of sksvery. Genocide of native Americans. The most people in jail in the world. A minority race still treated like animals and contracted in ghettoes. The biggest arms producer on earth. The second biggest polluter threatening all mankind. The leader of the imf which imperialisms the world. The highest industrial murder rate on earth. I could go on and on and on.

There are animals everywhere. Like our presidents their are animals who use religion to justify their wars. You sir are a joke.

It may have been, I don't like people bashing their OWN country, we have done a lot to make up for our past. Did the former Spanish colonies ever give their Natives reservations or anything like it? Let me ask you a question, why is another Arab state, which would really end up being 2 with Gaza needed. Why can't they just be absorbed by other countries who speak the same language, have the same religion, have the same cuisine, and culture. Wouldn't that make more sense, wouldn't they be happier with that. Is there something so different about Palestinians compared to Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, or Sunni Lebanese. If there is another state that is needed in the middle east it would be for the Kurds or Christian Arabs, which should be Lebanon. The West Bank is way to small to be a viable country anyways, do you really think it will be a peaceful country. Do you really think that Hamas wouldn't eventually take over and start firing rockets into Israel like they did in Gaza?

if you consider what Elisha posted as a reasonable arguments, kudos to you, but its in my mind, totally irrelevant if Palestinians were considered a state. In fact, read my post. I'm not even here arguing for Palestinian 'rights' as a separate nation. I have posted my views on this topic already.

My much bigger objection to Elisha was his call out of Mujahir who god forbid, defended his heritage from selective morality and logic, which of course got him labeled someone who should 'leave'....if that is well thought out reason, by all means consider it such but it says plenty about the reader.

My objection to the thread contents were around the bigot language used by BlueLou to kick things of (in his defense, he apologized, and in fact is fair and thoughtful-even praised Mujahir). I then objected to standard issue characterizations/strawmen arguments constantly used against Muslims. This really was not an Israel/Palestine debate forum in my threads.

A series of quotable is just that. I can go find plenty of quotables of arab leaders who claimed palestine was legitimate as well. Im sure I can find plenty of quotes of even Jewish leadership over the years questioning the legitimacy of Israel. Such quotes are rubbish waste of time on an internet board, and detracts from the situation as it is today.

Wins and just owned the board.

In comment 13018265 Elisha10 said:

Quote:

It may have been, I don't like people bashing their OWN country, we have done a lot to make up for our past. Did the former Spanish colonies ever give their Natives reservations or anything like it? Let me ask you a question, why is another Arab state, which would really end up being 2 with Gaza needed. Why can't they just be absorbed by other countries who speak the same language, have the same religion, have the same cuisine, and culture. Wouldn't that make more sense, wouldn't they be happier with that. Is there something so different about Palestinians compared to Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, or Sunni Lebanese. If there is another state that is needed in the middle east it would be for the Kurds or Christian Arabs, which should be Lebanon. The West Bank is way to small to be a viable country anyways, do you really think it will be a peaceful country. Do you really think that Hamas wouldn't eventually take over and start firing rockets into Israel like they did in Gaza?

The rockets will stop when Israel stops bull dozing homes in the West Bank and treating Gaza like a prison.

I don't think the palestinians will ever have a true state and should be absorbed into greater israel and the rest of the arab world. I agree wholeheartedly with you. A second state will be a parasite state and will never work.

I would even go so far as agree that the arab leadership and world has failed the palestinians very much.

With that said, your tact of using quotables was plenty silly. In 2015, the UN has (wrongly or rightly) recognized the statehood of palestine, a resolution is required and legitimate critiques of Israeli governmental policy <> Anti Israeli sentiment. Nor is it justification to equate Muslims with 'animals', 'they don't come out against terrorism', etc.

about this particular quote, it explains it all. This is the failed Arab (Palestinian) leadership that you talk about, this is why there is no peace.

Zahir Muhsein- executive committee member of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO, now Palestinian Authority)
March 31, 1977 interview in the Dutch newspaper Trouw:

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

In comment 13018196 GMenLTS said:

Quote:

a perfect opportunity to respond with cogent, fair arguments in this debate was just given to you both. And you both minimized three pretty thoughtful and fact based posts down to two-bit one liners that are too facile to respect even a little bit. You both just failed miserably.

Too funny. Why is the burden on them? Do you really believe the other side succeeded where they failed?

I was addressing others NOT YOU regarding the bile comments. I stated my objection to you earlier.

I don't care about your quote.......read my position and how irrelevant quotables are.

People should read posts more carefully and understand them before commenting.

I thought GMenLTS comment was quite hysterical yes....

What a waste to debate historical facts as if that can change reality. Time to move on and accept reality. Israel exists and needs to continue to exist. The Palestinians exist and also need to continue to exist.

There are many good people here and in the Middle East engaged in small but constructive efforts to see that the children of Israel and the Arab world can come to know death as a medical event and not the result of violence. These people are still seldom heard in the aftermath of atrocities and their efforts unnoticed. However, they seek to bring the children to an understanding of each other that has escaped many of their parents. I came across this group a couple of years: http://creativityforpeace.com/

In comment 13018294 hassan said:

Quote:

I thought GMenLTS comment was quite hysterical yes....

It's surprising because he's not a moron but it's obvious he has some bias.

In comment 13018347 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

In comment 13018294 hassan said: Quote: I thought GMenLTS comment was quite hysterical yes.... It's surprising because he's not a moron but it's obvious he has some bias.

Obviously one side is biased and the other has truth on their side.

In comment 13017251 muhajir said:

Quote:

You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...)

I generally stay off these threads, but muhajir, you're generally very level headed so I think I can actually have a conversation with you, even if we don't change each other's views.

First, the point about human rights violations is a joke. Just looking at who heads up the council is enough to make one laugh. In March, when they convened, they only condemned Israel out of every country in the world for violating woman's rights. You're going to take what they say seriously?

In regards to the water supply - we're going to disagree with if it was done intentionally or not but I've read (can try to find links if you want) the system IS really old and they're having legit issues. The fact that the PA hasn't paid for the supply is a whole different story (I don't agree with cutting it off at all).

I think the only real question I have for you is, do you honestly believe if a two state solution was agreed upon, there would actually be peace and would Jews be allowed to live in the Palestinian state like Arabs live in Israel?

...that's a pure fiction. And would never happen today. Stop living in the past. It's called cultural evolution and the west has and is embracing it. Unlike others we could mention.

In comment 13018273 Donky said:

Quote:

Wins and just owned the board.

Someone other than you is allowed to win?

Quote:

Im guessing American Christian culture is the gold standard for human rights and justice

I frankly don't think any religion followed fervently does anything of good. But if you want to draw a parallel to Christian things that have happen, at least understand that many leaders, whether they be Presidents or other Heads of state condemned actions. Slavery was abolished. Attempts to give restitution to American Indians has happened. The actions of Hitler were universally abhorred.

But when we talk about the issue of Islamic rule, you don't see heads of state condemning actions or changing things. You don't see suicide bombings stop while finding lynchings or killings of Native American's has ended long ago.

When the topic of people not condemning actions gets brought up, people jump to say, "Sure it does", but the list seems to bed of people the Western world has never heard of. An imam or cleric. Not a head of state. Not one of the leaders who has sworn to be an enemy of Israel, an enemy who they have simply because Israel exists.

You won't find me expousing the greatness of Christians, and you also surely won't see me making parallels to long ago that have been condemned and have been eradicated.

Eradicated while the hatred of Israel still exists.

Neither side has the moral high ground IMO

is better than another is laughable

Excellent posts. There is hope

Excellent posts. There is hope

In comment 13018410 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

Neither side has the moral high ground IMO

Your comment was that GMTS was biased. Are
hassan, muhajir (and you) biased?

But I don't believe I do on the ME. I have empathy for those suffering under shitty leadership but I don't condone violence.

GmenLTS

In comment 13018434 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

But I don't believe I do on the ME. I have empathy for those suffering under shitty leadership but I don't condone violence.

How about the other two or do you only see bias on one side?

Did this thread accomplish it's goal?

...refers to the disputed territories as occupied. It's a stacked deck against Israel, so it's meaningless to point out what a kangaroo court has to say on the subject. While the rest of the world refers to the settlements as illegal, the USA has always made a point of using the word "illegitimate." If the territories were occupied, the settlements would be illegal, but because they are disputed, the settlements are illegitimate. You may call that semantics, but that's what law is all about.

Quote:

The Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs and Israeli government websites who support the view that the territories are not occupied argue that use of the term "occupied" in relation to Israel's control of the areas has no basis in international law or history, and that it prejudges the outcome of negotiations. They regard the territories as "disputed" based on the following legal arguments: --No borders have been established or recognized by the parties. Armistice lines do not establish borders, and the 1949 Armistice Agreements in particular specifically stated (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent or de jure borders. --In line with the above idea, the Israeli government has officially stated that its position is that the territories cannot be called occupied, as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June 1967. --Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War. --The Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to "cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party. --Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory....". --Israel took control of the West Bank as a result of a defensive war. The language of "occupation" has allowed Palestinian spokesmen to obfuscate this history. By repeatedly pointing to "occupation," they manage to reverse the causality of the conflict, especially in front of Western audiences. Thus, the current territorial dispute is allegedly the result of an Israeli decision "to occupy," rather than a result of a war imposed on Israel by a coalition of Arab states in 1967. Former State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who later headed the International Court of Justice in the Hague, wrote in 1970 regarding Israel's case: "Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title."

The Great Palestinian Lie - ( New Window )

Back on the thread and theres a million post which i haven't read. Breaking fast in 15 min. Just want to apologize if I came accross harsh to anyone. I def did with fatman. Sorry brother. Wasnt my intention.

In comment 13018442 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Did this thread accomplish it's goal?

I guess the thread starter needs to answer that question but if the goal was to change anyone's mind, obviously that was a goal that was never to be accomplished. If it was to have a debate and blow off steam, that was accomplished and is similar to other threads here on many subjects.

for being harsh.

The irresponsibility shown by leaders in the Islamic/Arabic world is a topic I'm very direct on. I shoulder some blame here for directing things off the original topic and expanding the scope to Islamic law and rule.

If I had to capture my points more succinctly on the situation in the ME, I'd say that regardless of whose land it should be, Israel is surrounded by leaders who want the country gone. This is not an argument to say Israel is blameless, it is an argument that from my viewpoint, anyone trying to hold more blame to Israel while opposition has publicly stated they want Israel expunged is a folly. And the worst thing to me is when Israel does defend itself or fights back and the Arab nations cry foul and use it to justify more martyrdoms and more suicide missions.

There simply should not be so much rationalization to support the behavior of the Arabic leaders. It is plain and simply abhorrent.

read my posts carefully and you will understand exactly my position and my 'bias': hint-->its not nearly as big as many who have posted here--including your, Mr 'truther'. Im defending an Israeli state. But to argue one side is absolutetly right and one is absolutely wrong is a kindergarden mentality.


No one would accept statements about their culture that Muslims are subjected to on a regular basis here. Its rather disgraceful quite frankly. Additionally, the bullcrap that islam is inherently more prone to this type of 'savagery'--Eurpoean history until very recently, even our own actions in the middle east would suggest otherwise.

BTW, legitimate critiques of ISIS, Muslim leadership, etc are all fair game. Im very critical myself. What I don't like is the turning of the blind eye, the selective bias many show here. If you supported the Iraq War, for example, in my mind you have mostly lost any moral ground to critique Islamic states for their admitted issues as specially part of their 'religion'.

If you ask me, Mujahir, myself and AP have been far more reasonable than the other view. Just look at the statements made.

Bill2 is correct to point our the trollish nature of the thread start. BlueLou is generally a decent guy with a good perspective on the Giants and the other topics but this was not a good thread start on his part.

In comment 13018442 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Did this thread accomplish it's goal?

I have to agree with Bill.

I'm as Pro-Israel as they come (yes, Liberals can still be pro-Israel, though I oppose Bibi and the settlements), but I don't see the point in starting this thread. It's certainly a tragedy that this father was murdered by savages, but what exactly was the point of this thread?

In comment 13018468 hassan said:

Quote:

read my posts carefully and you will understand exactly my position and my 'bias': hint-->its not nearly as big as many who have posted here--including your, Mr 'truther'. Im defending an Israeli state. But to argue one side is absolutetly right and one is absolutely wrong is a kindergarden mentality. No one would accept statements about their culture that Muslims are subjected to on a regular basis here. Its rather disgraceful quite frankly. Additionally, the bullcrap that islam is inherently more prone to this type of 'savagery'--Eurpoean history until very recently, even our own actions in the middle east would suggest otherwise. BTW, legitimate critiques of ISIS, Muslim leadership, etc are all fair game. Im very critical myself. What I don't like is the turning of the blind eye, the selective bias many show here. If you supported the Iraq War, for example, in my mind you have mostly lost any moral ground to critique Islamic states for their admitted issues as specially part of their 'religion'. If you ask me, Mujahir, myself and AP have been far more reasonable than the other view. Just look at the statements made.

And the other side would say the same thing about you three. I think we are all biased based on where we are coming from. From my point of view, I raised a few comments along the way that was conveniently ignored as I am sure some of your were.

the other side might say that but they clearly don't READ what we are saying and in fact objecting to.

not once did AP, myself or Mujahir suggest we were the 'truth'. Not once did we smear Judaism. Critical of Israeli policy yes. But I wont stand for bashing Jews, its deeply wrong.

How many that argue against Islam can say the same on this board? Can you honestly suggest that?

has actually stated my exact position on this topic. Kudos to you.

In comment 13018484 hassan said:

Quote:

the other side might say that but they clearly don't READ what we are saying and in fact objecting to.

People can read what you are saying and not fully agree.

In comment 13018487 hassan said:

Quote:

has actually stated my exact position on this topic. Kudos to you.

Thank you and congratulations on the new contract :P

its a board............

In comment 13018377 JayBinQueens said:

Quote:

In comment 13017251 muhajir said: Quote: You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...) I generally stay off these threads, but muhajir, you're generally very level headed so I think I can actually have a conversation with you, even if we don't change each other's views. First, the point about human rights violations is a joke. Just looking at who heads up the council is enough to make one laugh. In March, when they convened, they only condemned Israel out of every country in the world for violating woman's rights. You're going to take what they say seriously? In regards to the water supply - we're going to disagree with if it was done intentionally or not but I've read (can try to find links if you want) the system IS really old and they're having legit issues. The fact that the PA hasn't paid for the supply is a whole different story (I don't agree with cutting it off at all). I think the only real question I have for you is, do you honestly believe if a two state solution was agreed upon, there would actually be peace and would Jews be allowed to live in the Palestinian state like Arabs live in Israel?

Good question Jay, if there was a two state solution, I 100% believe Israel would be in little to no danger of the Palestinians any longer. Just as they arent in danger from the other sovereign surrounding Arab nation's. Saudia Arabia actually has much better diplomatic relations with Israel then it does with predominately muslim Iran. Its politics, not religion.

As for Jews living in Palestine there after, they probably would suffer discrimination due to the deep resentment the Palestinians will still be harboring due to the decades of occupation.

Just the nature of the situation. But the main argument is always about whether Israelis would still be attacked if a two state solution was established. And like i said, history and the present have shown that Arab nations and Israel can most certainty live in peace next to each other.

glad he stayed with the heat....:)

when you suggest your view is the 'truth' your implying your opponents viewpoint is indispensable. That's far more intellectually dishonest than anything Ive posted. Irrespective of the topic you are discussing.

In comment 13018497 muhajir said:

Quote:

In comment 13018377 JayBinQueens said: Quote: In comment 13017251 muhajir said: Quote: You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...) I generally stay off these threads, but muhajir, you're generally very level headed so I think I can actually have a conversation with you, even if we don't change each other's views. First, the point about human rights violations is a joke. Just looking at who heads up the council is enough to make one laugh. In March, when they convened, they only condemned Israel out of every country in the world for violating woman's rights. You're going to take what they say seriously? In regards to the water supply - we're going to disagree with if it was done intentionally or not but I've read (can try to find links if you want) the system IS really old and they're having legit issues. The fact that the PA hasn't paid for the supply is a whole different story (I don't agree with cutting it off at all). I think the only real question I have for you is, do you honestly believe if a two state solution was agreed upon, there would actually be peace and would Jews be allowed to live in the Palestinian state like Arabs live in Israel? Good question Jay, if there was a two state solution, I 100% believe Israel would be in little to no danger of the Palestinians any longer. Just as they arent in danger from the other sovereign surrounding Arab nation's. Saudia Arabia actually has much better diplomatic relations with Israel then it does with predominately muslim Iran. Its politics, not religion. As for Jews living in Palestine there after, they probably would suffer discrimination due to the deep resentment the Palestinians will still be harboring due to the decades of occupation. Just the nature of the situation. But the main argument is always about whether Israelis would still be attacked if a two state solution was established. And like i said, history and the present have shown that Arab nations and Israel can most certainty live in peace next to each other.

How did land for peace work out in Gaza?

As long as you have a Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and inept Palestinian leadership there will never be peace.....

that should read....

In comment 13018486 hassan said:

Quote:

not once did AP, myself or Mujahir suggest we were the 'truth'. Not once did we smear Judaism. Critical of Israeli policy yes. But I wont stand for bashing Jews, its deeply wrong. How many that argue against Islam can say the same on this board? Can you honestly suggest that?

i see both side implying that "truth" is on their side. I am not sure what you mean about arguing against Islam. I have no problem criticizing the acts or preaching of radical Islam nor anyone criticizing some policies of Israel. Otherwise my thoughts are live and let live.

In comment 13018493 hassan said:

Quote:

its a board............

But the statement implied disagreeing was not reading the comment.

Really good posts btw.

the point needs to be made regarding Islam in today's world

Quote:

Not once did we smear Judaism. Critical of Israeli policy yes. But I wont stand for bashing Jews, its deeply wrong.How many that argue against Islam can say the same on this board?

When radical Islam is causing terror in several countries, you are going to have smears against it. When non-followers are taken from their homes and land and forced to convert or die or be banished, to think there won't be harsh comments made is naive.

When Judiasm or any other religion fosters violence against people who don't believe the same things, they should come under scrutiny as well.

The onus lies on the entire Islamic population to police those who are giving the religion a black eye, and if they cannot reform from within, it sure as hell isn't going to happen from outside.

To not understand the outrage really shows the lack of awareness of the world around us.

Ive expressed plenty of pro Israeli sentiment. No one here in the group you mention is suggesting otherwise. Why you would lump sides to the debate is curious to me in the first place but ok.

Regarding the 'truth', I hold my opinion and of course its my bias but I never view it as sancrosanct, or the truth.

I comprehend I can always learn more about any perspective and I might even be wrong.

Regarding Islam, read some of the comments here. Would not be tolerated for any other group. Not even close.

by your screwed up logic, every American owes everyone in the middle east a huge apology for the travesty that was Iraq. It blows away any terror induced violence exponentially.

If the criticism is specific and targeted, I am absolutely fine. There are terrible geopolitical and economic and yes religious cultural issues coming to light in the middle east. Muslims by the way are the biggest victims. By a mile, its not even close.

Suggesting all Muslims must be accountable and answering for this is just laughable. You need to stop posting your nonsense, you really aren't representing yourself well on this thread.

It’s impractical at best, especially given its environs (like insisting Mulberry St stay purely Italian despite being surrounded by Asians) and bigoted at worst.

The whole idea of a [insert any religion] state is ridiculous. I’m not picking on Israel. Which Muslim countries are closest to worthy of being called members of the 21st century? Those whose religious identity is secondary.

Though Turkey has regrettably slipped in recent years under the increasingly autocratic Erdogan, I want everyone to read and absorb this quote by Ataturk, from 1924.

Quote:

The religion of Islam will be elevated if it will cease to be a political instrument, as had been the case in the past

Imagine how the world would change if leaders of Muslim countries – almost a century later no less – took those words to heart.

One should not underestimate the degree to which The Establishment Clause is responsible for America’s rise and continued prosperity. I am dead serious. It is a massively indispensable reason we are where we are. The denizens of Israel (which includes, remember, ~1.75 million Sunni Muslims) would do well to consider themselves first and foremost, not Jewish or Muslim, but Israeli.

“But Overseer…the Jewish people, long brutalized and in a world still rife with anti-Semitism, need a safe place to call home!”

They have one. It’s called the United States of America. It’s not 1935 anymore. Come on over to Riverdale, we love your delis. Hate cold winters? Me too. You’re gonna love Boca Raton. And please bring lots of smokin young Jewish women (I’d love to show them around).

Or stay where you are. But…those of you in practice against a two-state solution (including, at present, the PM & Knesset), do you know basic arithmetic? Because Arab-Israelis have sex too, at a greater rate than Jews. Even factoring in Jewish immigration, the % of Arab-Israelis will continue to grow. So if Israel is to remain both Jewish and the wonderful democracy that it is, something’s gotta give…

As Yasser Arafat once said:

Quote:

Israel better rid itself of the territories and their Arab populations as soon as possible. If it did not Israel would soon become an Apartheid State.

Did I say Yasser Arafat? Sorry, I meant Ben Gurion.

--

This is a digression from the geo-political nature of the rest of this thread, forgive me. But it’s just difficult not to long for a world (like the one America brilliantly, and I mean brilliantly chose 2 ½ centuries ago) continually bogged down by a bunch of fanciful made up bullshit, ginned up when the doctors of the day placed leeches on people in order to “cure” diseases. At least medicine evolved.

your post is mostly brilliant. Religious states must fall and become more secular over time. Even if they have a strong flavoring of certain ethnicities.

In comment 13018442 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Did this thread accomplish it's goal?

I don't know what the goal was. It was obviously a stupid question. However, it was a good discussion and I really enjoyed Jeffrey's posts.

In comment 13018533 Overseer said:

Quote:

It’s impractical at best, especially given its environs (like insisting Mulberry St stay purely Italian despite being surrounded by Asians) and bigoted at worst. The whole idea of a [insert any religion] state is ridiculous. I’m not picking on Israel. Which Muslim countries are closest to worthy of being called members of the 21st century? Those whose religious identity is secondary. Though Turkey has regrettably slipped in recent years under the increasingly autocratic Erdogan, I want everyone to read and absorb this quote by Ataturk, from 1924. Quote: The religion of Islam will be elevated if it will cease to be a political instrument, as had been the case in the past Imagine how the world would change if leaders of Muslim countries – almost a century later no less – took those words to heart. One should not underestimate the degree to which The Establishment Clause is responsible for America’s rise and continued prosperity. I am dead serious. It is a massively indispensable reason we are where we are. The denizens of Israel (which includes, remember, ~1.75 million Sunni Muslims) would do well to consider themselves first and foremost, not Jewish or Muslim, but Israeli. “But Overseer…the Jewish people, long brutalized and in a world still rife with anti-Semitism, need a safe place to call home!” They have one. It’s called the United States of America. It’s not 1935 anymore. Come on over to Riverdale, we love your delis. Hate cold winters? Me too. You’re gonna love Boca Raton. And please bring lots of smokin young Jewish women (I’d love to show them around). Or stay where you are. But…those of you in practice against a two-state solution (including, at present, the PM & Knesset), do you know basic arithmetic? Because Arab-Israelis have sex too, at a greater rate than Jews. Even factoring in Jewish immigration, the % of Arab-Israelis will continue to grow. So if Israel is to remain both Jewish and the wonderful democracy that it is, something’s gotta give… As Yasser Arafat once said: Quote: Israel better rid itself of the territories and their Arab populations as soon as possible. If it did not Israel would soon become an Apartheid State. Did I say Yasser Arafat? Sorry, I meant Ben Gurion. -- This is a digression from the geo-political nature of the rest of this thread, forgive me. But it’s just difficult not to long for a world (like the one America brilliantly, and I mean brilliantly chose 2 ½ centuries ago) continually bogged down by a bunch of fanciful made up bullshit, ginned up when the doctors of the day placed leeches on people in order to “cure” diseases. At least medicine evolved.

Actually it looks like they were right about leeches. Sorry for the side comment.

on Jeffrey's positions as being enlightened.

Hassan...your a baws. Pound it 👊

but the supposed intellect of BBIers on this topic is perilously thin. Some awful examples just on this thread. Im not standing for this crap anymore. And wow people really want to read what is convenient.

In comment 13017460 Donky said:

Quote:

In comment 13017380 BlueLou said: Quote: Supporting a 2 state solution and wishing only for long term Peace and harmony in the region. And voted for Ehud Barak's party which was supported by an overwhelming mandate of the broader Israeli populace to finish up the business started by Rabin and Arafat st the Oslo accords. And Barak went to camp David to meet Arafat. And Arafat said "fuck you" and declared war by Intifada. In fact I could even underdtand the FU. If Arafat felt the deal offered wasn't fair, if he felt the Palestinians were being railroaded into concessions that were too severe... I could live with that thought and that stubbornness. But how to get what he wanted as fair and just? The historic models have been well laid out during the past century to achieve desired results and Israels' populace was ready to bend at that moment. You could feel it. Non violent protests. Peacefull marches. Bloock highways non violently. Lay down in the streets. Fast... But Arafat chose war. What did that say? What was his and the Palestinians' true objective? this is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever read. What was offered to Arafat was a South African style bantusysnce. Essentially a non contiguous state that would be split up into multiple cantons. The reality of the matter is simple. Israel is following a policy of expansion. When one reads internal Israeli documents they make clear that fears over security don't exist but rather they are seeking a policy of expansion. Israeli behavior of the occupied territories is a war crime as outlined by the 4 Th Geneva convention. This convention was initiated to criminalize the conduct of NAZI Germany's during the Second World War. As a result of their bull dozing Palestinian homes and annexing Palesinisn territory radical groups have developed that use terrorist actions to fight s political war. In Gaza Israel have essentially surrounded and enclosed the area turning it into a massive ghetto which is an act of war under Internstional law. Israel is an occupying power and a violent criminal rogue state that is universally condemned by the entire world routinely outside of the United States. All in votes are typically 155 to 2 that they terminate their occupation and settlement expansion. In fact Israel is one of the most secure countries on earth. It is backed and funded by the us the worlds sole super power. Saudi Arabia, Egypt Jordan turkey etc etc etc are all allies of the United States and as such are not enemies to Israel. Even Irans animosity amounts to little more then rhetoric to cover up the failures of the Iranian regime. Israel is considered to be the fourth strongest military on earth with a huge stock pile of nuclear weapons that are in violation of the nuclear nom proliferation treaty. Israel is the aggressor and the blowback is Palestinian terror. Their are also extremist Israeli terrorists who are psychotic Orthodox Jews who rampage in the West Bank. There are no doubt psychotic Palestinian terrorists. But the racism towards Jews is equaled by Jewish racism towards Palestinians. It is common place during war for both sides to dehumanized the other. Hence our racist names for the Japanese and Vietnamese and Germans etc etc. Take a look at what the ignorant fat man wrote about them being animals. Imagine someone said that about Jews? That person would rightfully be criticized. The Jewish and Palestinian people are great. Their leaders are vile monsters. But the ignorance about the conflict in this country is pathetic and these posts are a perfect illustration.

Perfectly said

love it when the usual suspects get up here and deride the middle east labor situation in Dubai, for example, while ignoring every bite of food they take is basically off the back of an illegal poorly paid slave, aka an illegal immigrant.

Our american hypocrisy and lack of self awareness is an amazing thing sometimes. We should be better than this; of course we know, we are gifted with a multicultural perspective, many here are not (and will continue to live in their small worlds).....

Men are basic creatures, all are capable of good and bad, and all are complex at the same time. Anyone who subscribes to a simplistic view around this will never find the right solutions. Its most of this board.

At this point, I know who they are and I should just generally take their good points and avoid their bad, but pride gets the best of me. I see many provoked a lot more than we are by far less..........

Good night!

??

Loved your post

Quote:

Suggesting all Muslims must be accountable and answering for this is just laughable. You need to stop posting your nonsense, you really aren't representing yourself well on this thread.

I'm suggesting that in order for there to be any chance for a halt to the ridiculous of Islamic Law, the abject oppression, and the elimination of ethnic cleansing that still goes on in ISIS or Taliban controlled areas that change has to come from within. It can't be a foreign land that dictates it.

But that won't happen as long as people think there's really nothing wrong or that false equivalencies like the Iraq War somehow negate the atrocities.

And again there is a major difference here. Even in the Iraq War, some world leaders voiced their dissent over it. Politicians in the US even disagreed over it. Where are the Arabic leaders who are dissenting over the way Israel is treated?

If you don't think that in today's day that radical Islam is playing a huge part on the world's stage I really don't know what to say.

But hey, if it's not as bad as the Iraq War, everything else is OK....

We aren't likely to see change because it has been this way for centuries.

I received a complaint that this thread is too political. If others feel so, please e-mail the moderators and let us know.

.

amazes me. Israel has less than 1/2% of the land in the Middle East. Yet the debate is framed as if Israel has too much land and that is the crux of the problem. The problem is Arabs contribute nothing to this planet as a whole but murder. Palestinians in the liberated lands of Judea and Samaria have more freedom and more opportunity than anywhere else in the Mid East.

If people here who claim to care about the Palestinians did they might be more worked up about the massive slaughter going on in Syria. Or the carnage in Iraq. Israel is a bastion of stability in a brutal section of the world. And by the way what are the national goals of the Palestinians aside from murdering Jews?

Quote:

"Three times in their history the Palestinians were offered statehood -- in 1937 [when the Peel Commission recommended partition], in 1947 [when the UN General Assembly voted partition] and through the Clinton Parameters in 2000 -- and three times they have rejected it."--Shlomo Ben-Ami

The Myth of the "Myth of the Generous Offer" - ( New Window )

has taken a lot of flack here but I see very little actual response to what he says other than the implication that it is beneath their dignity to respond to such things. But I guess this sort of thing comes from both sides but some refuse to see their own bias.

Who disagrees that some Arab leaders are assholes? It's like arguing they declined the state solution. The leadership has been one the biggest problems over the last 50 years.

In comment 13018725 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

Who disagrees that some Arab leaders are assholes? It's like arguing they declined the state solution. The leadership has been one the biggest problems over the last 50 years.

The Arab leadership has been the biggest problem and it remains the biggest problem. The only road to a two-state solution is one that bypasses the Arab leadership.

In comment 13018725 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

Who disagrees that some Arab leaders are assholes? It's like arguing they declined the state solution. The leadership has been one the biggest problems over the last 50 years.

Not sure why you asked me that.

is what drives most of the actions the Western world either sees or is impacted by.

I've erred a couple of times on this thread - the first was taking the focus away from the Israel discussion to the broader spectrum of the Islamic world and also by saying the isn't dissention or opposition. There isn't outrage from the Arabic leaders, which is pretty damning considering many of them lead like dictators.

In Early America, when the Puritans forced their ideals on people, things like burning witches and branding people heretics was common. Separating Church and State led to progress. In the Arabic world, they are intertwined and as long as they are, there will be no reform or progress.

When people call out radical Islam, there are inevitably defenses that say those people are either bigoted or ignorant and talk about the millions of people who are non-violent and practice the supposed religion of peace that shouldn't be painted with broadstrokes. I agree they shouldn't.

But let's not pretend radical Islam isn't shaping current world events. When a terrorist act happens, it isn't a Christian, Buddhist or Jew stepping forward to claim responsibility, it is an Islamic group proud to spread terror. The outrage has to go beyond clerics and imams. Action has to go to people who lead. And it simply hasn't.

And again - that strays from the topic of Israel, but it is the response to those who think attacking radical Islam is without merit or ignorant.

In comment 13018730 Big Al said:

Quote:

In comment 13018725 AP in Halfmoon said: Quote: Who disagrees that some Arab leaders are assholes? It's like arguing they declined the state solution. The leadership has been one the biggest problems over the last 50 years. Not sure why you asked me that.

But I will add something to the statement you made. It is more than the leadership. I believe that the leadership is afraid to do things that would get them killed by their "followers" so it is more than the leaders.

the only problem with this thread is that Simo/dust_bowl/nine lives/donky has been allowed to make another handle and rejoin BBI.

In comment 13018736 PaulBlakeTSU said:

Quote:

the only problem with this thread is that Simo/dust_bowl/nine lives/donky has been allowed to make another handle and rejoin BBI.

Interesting that some have actually complimented him on this thread.

In comment 13018442 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Did this thread accomplish it's goal?

Not to my mind Bill. The purpose of the thread was to draw attention to the current and ongoing wave of terror attacks being carried out in Israel and the West Bank since October 2015.
It drifted far afield from that aim.

So to address the initial point I am linking two sources of information, one from each side, which appear to me creditable and extremely thorough.

In light of the information provided in the links I would like to address one small statement from one of Donkey's posts that IMO createed a valid "talking point".

Quote:

Their are also extremist Israeli terrorists who are psychotic Orthodox Jews who rampage in the West Bank.

I have lived and worked in the West Bank and have many friends there, including Christian Arabs. I highly disagree with the characterization of Israeli West Bank settlers as "psychotics... who rampage."

Naturally Donkey's statement doesn't mention the numbers of these attacks by Jewish settlers on their Palestinian neighbors so I dug up the details.

Since October 20015 when the Intifada, the wave if terrorist attacks against Israel began, there have been over 280 attacks and attempted attacks on Israelis. During that same time period, there have been 3 attacks and attempted attacks by Israeli citizens on Palestinians. THREE.

I regret there have been any. In two of the cases the Israeli suspects were tried and imprisoned, in one case of an Israeli man accused of "attempting to chase" a Palestinian young girl there was an investigation but no ensuing charges.

Anyway the Israeli documentation of Palestinians attacks is linked below; while the information reporting Israeli attacks and abuses directed towards Palestinians is available here: (the pro Palestinian information is a very long list to read through or even scan, and includes incidents of Egyptian attacks on Palestinians during incidents at the Gaza/ Egyptian border.)

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israeli-palestinians-injured/

I believe the relevant information on the current intifada and the Israeli response to it are well documented in these two links.


Wave of Terror Attacks Reported by the Israeli Foreign Ministry - ( New Window )

you will notice me state multiple times throughout this post I have no specific problem with an attack/critique of ISIS or Hamas. Or radicalized groups. They deserve attack and condemnation. So why you would suggest I'm not is somewhat puzzling......

Secondly, have I ever denied radical Islam is not a force in the world that must be addressed? Clearly it is.

My challenge is, you've run through so many of the weak typical responses right wingers hold towards all Muslims. Why don't they condemn attacks? They should stand up against ISIS/radicals (again, they are the most brutalized victims of such groups). You also failed to distinguish between radical Islam and its regular adherents, which you pivoted and corrected. But then you suggest all Muslims need to be accountable for the acts of a few?

Regarding the Muslim world's ability to stand up to ISIS or current leadership, this is a particularly tough challenge. One, these are not democratic societies and wealth distributon is a major issue. Two, one side is armed, the other isn't.

But, we do have the examples of Libya, Egypt and others. Its happening, its a slow painful process. The US and the West must also help because ISIS needs to be destroyed and its also in our interest to remove this scourge.

In comment 13018737 Big Al said:

Quote:

In comment 13018736 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: the only problem with this thread is that Simo/dust_bowl/nine lives/donky has been allowed to make another handle and rejoin BBI. Interesting that some have actually complimented him on this thread.

Even more interesting to my mind Al is that every single one of Donkey's points was countered, by legal, logistical comprehensive and specific posts.

I didn't respond to his claim that my point about the Camp David failure was "bullshit" because it simply wasn't worth responding to. But I did address one of his nonsensical statements above, with detailed information.

In comment 13018737 Big Al said:

Quote:

In comment 13018736 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: the only problem with this thread is that Simo/dust_bowl/nine lives/donky has been allowed to make another handle and rejoin BBI. Interesting that some have actually complimented him on this thread.

Many of his points are valid, unpopular but valid. He takes it to an extreme.

In comment 13018761 BlueLou said:

Quote:

In comment 13018737 Big Al said: Quote: In comment 13018736 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: the only problem with this thread is that Simo/dust_bowl/nine lives/donky has been allowed to make another handle and rejoin BBI. Interesting that some have actually complimented him on this thread. Even more interesting to my mind Al is that every single one of Donkey's points was countered, by legal, logistical comprehensive and specific posts. I didn't respond to his claim that my point about the Camp David failure was "bullshit" because it simply wasn't worth responding to. But I did address one of his nonsensical statements above, with detailed information.

But I read "Donkey wins and owns the board".

then you must really not be reading carefully if that is your takeaway.

FMIC has posed strawmen arguments, regarding condemndation of terror amongst the Muslim community (combatted). He also provided a view of conditions for Palestinians that came across as context deprived. Hes suggested that on the issue that 'plenty of blame' to go around that this must be a subjective viewpoint (laughable assertion--irrespective of which side you may lean towards, if you cannot see something wrong with a Hamas government or the heavy handed responses Bibi and Sharon have taken then you are basically a wingnut).......

In comment 13018798 hassan said:

Quote:

then you must really not be reading carefully if that is your takeaway. FMIC has posed strawmen arguments, regarding condemndation of terror amongst the Muslim community (combatted). He also provided a view of conditions for Palestinians that came across as context deprived. Hes suggested that on the issue that 'plenty of blame' to go around that this must be a subjective viewpoint (laughable assertion--irrespective of which side you may lean towards, if you cannot see something wrong with a Hamas government or the heavy handed responses Bibi and Sharon have taken then you are basically a wingnut).......

I see grievances on both sides even though I do admit I have a bias. By the way I do not lump all posters coming from one side together so certain of my comments may not be directed to you.

In comment 13018692 Milton said:

Quote:

Quote: "Three times in their history the Palestinians were offered statehood -- in 1937 [when the Peel Commission recommended partition], in 1947 [when the UN General Assembly voted partition] and through the Clinton Parameters in 2000 -- and three times they have rejected it."--Shlomo Ben-Ami The Myth of The Myth of the "Myth of the Generous Offer" - ( New Window )

Milton thank you.

I wish that Muhajir and Hassan would at least look at this since it concisely backs up my point about Camp David and the ensuing discussions.

Not to mention your point that "Arab [ie Palestinian] leadership failed miserably."

What did the Saudi Prince say about Arafat's rejection (and refusal to counter offer or even take it as a negotiating point) of the proposal? "If the consequences (of Arafat's rejection) weren't so serious they would be comic."

What many came to realize in Israel was that Arafat would NEVER give up the refugees "right of return" to Israel proper, which of course would demographically eliminate the Jewish state. Somehow Arafat confused his insistence on this totally unrealistic demand and what any rational person could see as a negotiating ploy with a "reality" that he had been selling to Palestinians for years.

hence why the situation has been happening for centuries.

Quote:

But then you suggest all Muslims need to be accountable for the acts of a few?

But why is it considered foolish to expect there to be reform from within? If the US tries to rectify the situation, it just spawns more radicalism.

I also don't look at this as a right-wing type of thing. The older I get, the less tolerance I have for hate. Hate of homosexuality. Hate of races. Just hate in general. And Islamic leadership breeds and fosters hate. They need to in order to keep the populace scared and in line, a populace that is filled with people who are being robbed of educational opportunities, advancement and development. Because all of that is bad for despots.

My belief is that until change comes from within, there won't be significant change. And I do understand it is very difficult to accomplish. Which is one of the reasons it hasn't happened.

first of all, everyone has a slight bias. No issue with a bias. No issue even with reasonable debate. The world cannot afford to be afraid of tough conversations.

A smear with a broad stroke is rarely ever a decent conversation, too much here ends up in this camp regarding this issue. My other challenge with these threads is the selective logic/outrage applied.

In comment 13018826 hassan said:

Quote:

first of all, everyone has a slight bias. No issue with a bias. No issue even with reasonable debate. The world cannot afford to be afraid of tough conversations. A smear with a broad stroke is rarely ever a decent conversation, too much here ends up in this camp regarding this issue. My other challenge with these threads is the selective logic/outrage applied.

Do you see any selective outrage coming from your side? I see it coming from both sides? Seemed to me selective outrage is seen on debates on most serious subjects.

Quote:

He also provided a view of conditions for Palestinians that came across as context deprived.

I was in Israel for 8 days last year. During that time, I saw the most deplorable behavior I had ever seen in any place that I've traveled, which has been significant.

I saw Palestinian children knowingly step near vehicles bump the car and then fall to the ground trying to draw attention to the scene. I saw people spitting at passerbys for no apparent reason. In one restaurant, a group of people threw their trash on the floor and started screaming. I saw kids being used as pawns to try and agitate. And in every case, the Israelis avoided the conflict and refused to even acknowledge the behavior. It was by far the most bizarre social scene I've encountered. And it wasn't just one instance it wasn't two, it happened the entire trip.

And yes, this is one man's view over a little more than a week, but I've gone to so many countries and never came back trying to find out more on why something is like it is. I've never had the confusion of "what the hell is going on" to spur me to look deeper into a situation.

For me, that trip was more powerful than any other I have taken. This thread was only an opportunity for me to explain my experience and I self-admittedly brought it off topic by expounding to other areas not germane to the Israel situation.

In comment 13018832 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

Quote: He also provided a view of conditions for Palestinians that came across as context deprived. I was in Israel for 8 days last year. During that time, I saw the most deplorable behavior I had ever seen in any place that I've traveled, which has been significant. I saw Palestinian children knowingly step near vehicles bump the car and then fall to the ground trying to draw attention to the scene. I saw people spitting at passerbys for no apparent reason. In one restaurant, a group of people threw their trash on the floor and started screaming. I saw kids being used as pawns to try and agitate. And in every case, the Israelis avoided the conflict and refused to even acknowledge the behavior. It was by far the most bizarre social scene I've encountered. And it wasn't just one instance it wasn't two, it happened the entire trip. And yes, this is one man's view over a little more than a week, but I've gone to so many countries and never came back trying to find out more on why something is like it is. I've never had the confusion of "what the hell is going on" to spur me to look deeper into a situation. For me, that trip was more powerful than any other I have taken. This thread was only an opportunity for me to explain my experience and I self-admittedly brought it off topic by expounding to other areas not germane to the Israel situation.

Sounds worse than that experience you told about in France after 9/11.

if you read my posts, which are numerous now and I wont pretend that everyone reads every post, my objections and the crux of my discussion have little to do with Israel-Palestine specifically.

Unlike Mujahir, I don't believe in a two state solution. Isreael, along with the Palestinians, the US and other Arab states must figure out how to relocate some/most of these refugees and then Israel must absorb the rest. And I get the challenges with that but the second state will simply be a weak parasite to Israel anyway. Why bother?

With that said, rejection of the offers made come down to specifics of the deals, which Im not privy to, but the fact no counter offer was made suggest that at least in the 90s, Arafat was not sincere in actually striking a deal.

yelling Death to America and Allah Akhbar in France at the memorial set-up for the 9/11 victims, I found the rest of the people to be very nice.

And that's with me butchering their language which if it weren't in the days immediately after 9/11 would've gotten me sneers and a shitty French attitude thrown my way.

I like to think I consider all pieces of an equation, so no, I don't think Im nearly as flippant as those who have broad strokes to brush and less of a selective picker. The world is all about nuances.

In comment 13018533 Overseer said:

Quote:

It’s impractical at best, especially given its environs (like insisting Mulberry St stay purely Italian despite being surrounded by Asians) and bigoted at worst. The whole idea of a [insert any religion] state is ridiculous. I’m not picking on Israel. Which Muslim countries are closest to worthy of being called members of the 21st century? Those whose religious identity is secondary. Though Turkey has regrettably slipped in recent years under the increasingly autocratic Erdogan, I want everyone to read and absorb this quote by Ataturk, from 1924. Quote: The religion of Islam will be elevated if it will cease to be a political instrument, as had been the case in the past Imagine how the world would change if leaders of Muslim countries – almost a century later no less – took those words to heart. One should not underestimate the degree to which The Establishment Clause is responsible for America’s rise and continued prosperity. I am dead serious. It is a massively indispensable reason we are where we are. The denizens of Israel (which includes, remember, ~1.75 million Sunni Muslims) would do well to consider themselves first and foremost, not Jewish or Muslim, but Israeli. “But Overseer…the Jewish people, long brutalized and in a world still rife with anti-Semitism, need a safe place to call home!” They have one. It’s called the United States of America. It’s not 1935 anymore. Come on over to Riverdale, we love your delis. Hate cold winters? Me too. You’re gonna love Boca Raton. And please bring lots of smokin young Jewish women (I’d love to show them around). Or stay where you are. But…those of you in practice against a two-state solution (including, at present, the PM & Knesset), do you know basic arithmetic? Because Arab-Israelis have sex too, at a greater rate than Jews. Even factoring in Jewish immigration, the % of Arab-Israelis will continue to grow. So if Israel is to remain both Jewish and the wonderful democracy that it is, something’s gotta give… As Yasser Arafat once said: Quote: Israel better rid itself of the territories and their Arab populations as soon as possible. If it did not Israel would soon become an Apartheid State. Did I say Yasser Arafat? Sorry, I meant Ben Gurion. -- This is a digression from the geo-political nature of the rest of this thread, forgive me. But it’s just difficult not to long for a world (like the one America brilliantly, and I mean brilliantly chose 2 ½ centuries ago) continually bogged down by a bunch of fanciful made up bullshit, ginned up when the doctors of the day placed leeches on people in order to “cure” diseases. At least medicine evolved.

Good post, but still liked your paean to boobs better.

Why aren't the people who profess to care so much about Palestinian children complaining about how they are being used as sacrificial pawns by their parents and the Palestinian leadership....
Palestinian children trying to provoke IDF soldiers
Palestinian children throwing rocks at cars

180 children died digging tunnels for Hamas in Gaza prior to the war in August 2014, but we didn't hear any outrage from the American and European left until Palestinian children were dying as a result of Israel's response to rocket fire.

Oh, and p.s.-- They're again dying building tunnels into Israel.

Should be banned

In comment 13018844 hassan said:

Quote:

Unlike Mujahir, I don't believe in a two state solution. Israel, along with the Palestinians, the US and other Arab states must figure out how to relocate some/most of these refugees and then Israel must absorb the rest. And I get the challenges with that but the second state will simply be a weak parasite to Israel anyway. Why bother?

You can "believe in" whatever you want, but the reality is that a two-state solution is the only solution and the one-state solution you describe is just a BDS pipe dream that none of the actual players take seriously. So you can wax poetically about your "thought experiment" but that's all it is.

As for what that Palestinian state will be like, well, that's up to the Palestinians. Once freed from under the thumb of their corrupt, incompetent, and oppressive leadership, they might surprise you. Germany and Japan emerged from defeat and humiliation to build quite robust democracies, despite being "weakened" militarily. Once given a state, the Palestinian people will have the potential to build for themselves either a North Korea or a South Korea. It will be up to them and the leadership they vote into office.

the Koran is 70% political, a legal system if you will. Adherents are not satisfied living their life by this system, but want it to be the law of the land. Much as it was when the Catholic Church ran Europe.

As I said before, until Islam has a reformation and the goals of an Islamic run world are abandoned, nothing will change.

.

In comment 13018957 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

.

Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate.

What I found most interesting and educational was all the stuff leading up to the war. It points to Russia as provoking the war and to the USA for declining Israel's request to force Egypt to open the Straits of Tiran (which might've taken the air out of the conflict before it went too far).
p.s.-- One theory (not from this documentary) was that Russia wanted to provoke a war so that they could use it as an excuse to fly over Dimona and take out Israel's nuclear plant. They didn't want Israel getting nuclear weapons. But the war got out of hand much too quickly for them to fulfill that goal.
Six Days in June - ( New Window )

In comment 13018962 Big Al said:

Quote:

In comment 13018957 AP in Halfmoon said: Quote: . Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate.

I'd rather he didn't. It'll just spiral out of control and it's not what this discussion is about. It's not worth getting the thread deleted.

Way to attempt to take what has so far been a pretty civil, well thought out thread and insert your breitbart.com talking point which is nearly completely off topic.

There's no point debating that. It's the worst possible interpretation and assumes those nuts actually care what's written and would change if there's a reformation. The facts are clear. A tiny minority of Muslims are violent. It's an asinine statement and totally counter productive.

Let me say that both of my brothers married Israelis. One brother lived there for 10 years, the other brother has lived there with his wife the past 19 years in the Golan Heights. My mother has been extremely active for over 50 years in Haddassah- an American women's zionist charity/advocate orginization. That having been said, the one phrase that has become a staple in moden day US is "there's an easy answer". In complicated situations such as the Palestinian -Israeli conflict there is not an easy answer. It will take hard work and lots of compromise, and at this time neither side is willing to do it. I love Israel and respect all they have done. However I do not support Netanyahu and his provocative behavior. I'm not even getting into the matter of international law, but expanding the settlements has been done at least partially with the thought of flexxing muscles and proving a point. Of course the terrorism and behavior pf the Palestinian leadership is reprehensible and morally bankrupt. However lets not pretend that Israel's behavior the past half a century hasn't been at least a small contributor here. While much of the Palestinian leadership over the years has been about driving Israel into the sea, much of the arab world in general has had their leadership feel this way yet Israel has found a way to seek out the reasonable leaders such as King Hussein and Sadat and find common ground. Yes the PA can be blamed for much of the pli g t of the modern day Palestinian civillian. However Israel and its leadeship if for no other reason than being decent humane people cannot continue to ignore the humanitarian disaster that is going on withun and at its borders.

BDS pipe dream? Doubt many who advocate a one state solution the manner in which I am are suggesting moving much of the refugees to Arab countries. In fact this was originally an Israeli position.

Nothing about my stance suggest BDS, and I think that's BDS is a joke personally.

Great post.

In comment 13018931 buford said:

Quote:

the Koran is 70% political, a legal system if you will. Adherents are not satisfied living their life by this system, but want it to be the law of the land. Much as it was when the Catholic Church ran Europe. As I said before, until Islam has a reformation and the goals of an Islamic run world are abandoned, nothing will change.

Yes buford. Islam is the problem. Not that the Palestinians are occupied and humiliated every day of their lives. Thank you for your always valuable contribution.

In comment 13019072 hassan said:

Quote:

BDS pipe dream? Doubt many who advocate a one state solution the manner in which I am are suggesting moving much of the refugees to Arab countries. In fact this was originally an Israeli position. Nothing about my stance suggest BDS, and I think that's BDS is a joke personally.

Regardless, the one-state solution is just a thought experiment that will never come to be. It would have to be forced upon Israel and when I say forced, I mean militarily. So what's the likelihood of that?

Here's my "road map" to a two-state solution....
1. Israel puts together a team of negotiators which brings their plan for a two-state solution to the United States where they meet with a team of American negotiators who's job it is to advocate for the Palestinians.
2. Between these two teams, they negotiate a two-state solution to the conflict that the Americans are willing to sign off on.
3. With solution in hand, the American-Israeli team heads to Europe to present their two-state solution to the European Union (and England) and a team of negotiators put together by the Europeans. As before, it will fall upon the Europeans to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians.
4. The two sides negotiate and "tweaks" are made to the American-European two-state solution to accommodate whatever complaints the Europeans have with it. And the Europeans than sign off on it.
5. At this point, the American-Israeli-European team takes their two-state solution to the Arab League. It may be impossible to expect the Arab League to sign off on it, but they need to at least try, and perhaps they can at least get Egypt and Jordan to give it the okay.
6. China and Russia are also asked to sign off on it.
7. Once all that is completed, they go about the business of implementing it. A big part of the implementation plan will be holding elections in the Palestinian territories. And of course the necessary eradication/defeat of Hamas and Islamic Jihad (nobody thinks Hamas is going to lay down their arms willingly).

Regardless of the Arab League's (and the Russia's and China's) public stance, if Israel can just get America and Europe to recognize their two-state solution as legitimate, in time the rest of the world will fall in behind it. The key to my plan is getting Europe on board.

p.s.-- In case, you hadn't noticed, I'm leaving out the Palestinian leadership for reasons that should be obvious.

In comment 13018962 Big Al said:

Quote:

In comment 13018957 AP in Halfmoon said: Quote: . Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate.

Bufords entire thought process revolves around how evil Muslims and the Koran are. She doesnt need debate. She needs a hug.

Just imho but I don't think there is any plan that's going to work nor any process that's going to work absent a massive massive investment in Israel and Israeli companies that makes it much safer via economic strength and by doing so also opens the need for non Jewish human capital. Once a nation makes money from educating and cop opting and being humane to the best and brightest of former enemies a lot gets better within three generations ( shortest time anything substantial will change for the better imho).

Anthony Bourdain did an episode in Israel and Palestine and opens the show by saying he wasn't there to pick sides just to show that the issue is complicated no matter how you look at it.

And at the end of the show he reiterates that point.

It was very well done and not slanted by Bourdain

In comment 13019125 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Just imho but I don't think there is any plan that's going to work nor any process that's going to work absent a massive massive investment in Israel and Israeli companies that makes it much safer via economic strength and by doing so also opens the need for non Jewish human capital. Once a nation makes money from educating and cop opting and being humane to the best and brightest of former enemies a lot gets better within three generations ( shortest time anything substantial will change for the better imho).

It seems to me that all that you mentioned is already going on and it hasn't changed the goals and mindset of the Palestinian leadership. In my mind, the only pathway to a two-state solution is one that bypasses the Palestinian leadership. And like I said earlier, there is also the requirement of eradicating Hamas. I have no doubt that former enemies can become friends, just look at Germany and Japan. I'm also confident that given the opportunity, the Palestinian people are capable of forging a vibrant economy of their own.

In comment 13019096 muhajir said:

Quote:

In comment 13018931 buford said: Quote: the Koran is 70% political, a legal system if you will. Adherents are not satisfied living their life by this system, but want it to be the law of the land. Much as it was when the Catholic Church ran Europe. As I said before, until Islam has a reformation and the goals of an Islamic run world are abandoned, nothing will change. Yes buford. Islam is the problem. Not that the Palestinians are occupied and humiliated every day of their lives. Thank you for your always valuable contribution.

Why are they occupied (your word) and humiliated (your word). Seems that if they stopped trying to kill Israelis things would be a lot better for them. But they don't. Why not? Seriously, I am asking you, since you seem to have set yourself up as the spokesperson for them. Why not blame their corrupt leaders or Hamas or Iran and their proxy Hezbollah? No, it's easier to blame the Jews.

In comment 13019104 muhajir said:

Quote:

In comment 13018962 Big Al said: Quote: In comment 13018957 AP in Halfmoon said: Quote: . Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate. Bufords entire thought process revolves around how evil Muslims and the Koran are. She doesnt need debate. She needs a hug.

So you don't agree that Islam needs a reformation? There are plenty, even in the Muslim world who agree that it does.
Link - ( New Window )

is a secular state for the most part. Just because its' reason for being is based on religious murder and persecution, doesn't change the fact that it is a tolerant, secular and diverse country ruled by secular law.

Am I missing something ?

that must be done, is that all the intellectual, social, and morally responsible resources of the world need to be brought to bear against an ideology that hides behind religion, that is the inspiration and justification for the hatred, intolerance and brain washing that has created tens of thousands of deadly attacks against innocent people.

Let's start there.

They kill people over cartoons. End of moral analysis. And it's not a small percentage of radicals "twisting" the religion who believe in such wanton, ignorant, barbarity in the name of "God."

In comment 13019268 Mike in Marin said:

Quote:

is a secular state for the most part. Just because its' reason for being is based on religious murder and persecution, doesn't change the fact that it is a tolerant, secular and diverse country ruled by secular law. Am I missing something ?

Yes you are. Israeli Arabs, while they can enjoy an excellent existence in Israel and are allowed voting rights and can serve in the Knesset are not allowed 100% the rights of Jewish Israeli's. Also for your and Buford's consumption there has been a huge struggle for decades between the Orthodox who are a huge minority and most of the Israeli Jews who are secular Jews. The orthodox have controlled certain important laws such as the fact that Israel will only officially recognized marriage ceremonies performed by orthodox Rabbi's. Again Israel is a wonderful country that is much more tolerant than an oppressive Islamic state such as Saudi Arabia. However it is incorrect to state that is only the Koran or Arab states that let theology rule civil law.

Thanks for the response. I will respond in more detail when I can later. I am aware of most of what you wrote. You are splitting hairs. Compared to the 99.9% of intolerance of all non Muslims in the Muslim world, it is almost laughable to criticize those almost completely benign religious criticisms of Israel. The double standard and the tolerance for Islamic immorality of the Muslim world is the greatest scam in the history of the world, because it is the only one left of the religious scam as a whole amd we should all know better by now. Instead, what used to pass for liberalism is now a defense of Islam, which is an indefensible ideology.

In comment 13019256 buford said:

Quote:

In comment 13019104 muhajir said: Quote: In comment 13018962 Big Al said: Quote: In comment 13018957 AP in Halfmoon said: Quote: . Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate. Bufords entire thought process revolves around how evil Muslims and the Koran are. She doesnt need debate. She needs a hug. So you don't agree that Islam needs a reformation? There are plenty, even in the Muslim world who agree that it does. Link - ( New Window )

Of course i dont agree Islam needs a reformation. Peoples actions around the world, Muslim and nonmuslim need a reformation. Religion is what you make of it. If a jew wants to be violent, you better believe there are plenty of verses in the Torah that they can use as a justification. Does judiasm need a reformation? No.

And your link has the opinion of an Egyptian dictator that I wouldnt wipe my aaa with.

But ANYWAY, your question has nothing to do with the Political conflict between Israel and Palestine. But as usual you tie every conflict back to Islam some how. Always nice chatting with you btw (muhajir rolls eyes... goes back to watching fantasy fb videos)

There are millions of "reformed Muslims" today. Try thinking this through.

A religion responsible for inspiring and justifying 28,000 deadly attacks since 9/11 is fine the way it is! No reform needed.

so I will avoid responding further except to say if wasn't Islam it would be something else.

In comment 13019376 AP in Halfmoon said:

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so I will avoid responding further except to say if wasn't Islam it would be something else.

Jehovah Witnesses or twin Mormons knocking at my door?

In comment 13019367 Mike in Marin said:

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A religion responsible for inspiring and justifying 28,000 deadly attacks since 9/11 is fine the way it is! No reform needed.

Just so we're on the same page what exactly does 'reform Islam' mean to you? Buford pls explain as well

invite them in.

In comment 13019397 AP in Halfmoon said:

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invite them in.

Lol (Looks left and right to make sure wife isnt around..whispers 'invite me too..')

In comment 13019397 AP in Halfmoon said:

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invite them in.

Pass. They are usually of the male persuasion. NTTIAWWT.

In comment 13019396 muhajir said:

Quote:

In comment 13019367 Mike in Marin said: Quote: A religion responsible for inspiring and justifying 28,000 deadly attacks since 9/11 is fine the way it is! No reform needed. Just so we're on the same page what exactly does 'reform Islam' mean to you? Buford pls explain as well

It means removing all support for all beliefs that hinder human rights, universal morality (human well-being) and provide excuses to persecute all people.

In comment 13019396 muhajir said:

Quote:

In comment 13019367 Mike in Marin said: Quote: A religion responsible for inspiring and justifying 28,000 deadly attacks since 9/11 is fine the way it is! No reform needed. Just so we're on the same page what exactly does 'reform Islam' mean to you? Buford pls explain as well

It means removing all support for all beliefs that hinder human rights and universal morality (human well-being). It basically means people can believe whatever they want, but stop hurting people.

In comment 13019366 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

There are millions of "reformed Muslims" today. Try thinking this through.

Yet there are still 100s of millions that believe a slaughtering warlord who was completely intolerant, is the ultimate example of a human/prophet, who should be emulated. Killing all non-believers, raping prepubescent girls, murdering anyone for cartoons and similar forms of blasphemy, death to homosexuals, no rights for women, death for apostasy.

A great example for 1.5B people to follow. Thank sweet buttery jeezus there are a few million who have reformed.

You and buford should take that shit elsewhere. We get it, you don't like Islam or Muslims. That has nothing to do with the thread topic.

In comment 13019317 Stu11 said:

Quote:

In comment 13019268 Mike in Marin said: Quote: is a secular state for the most part. Just because its' reason for being is based on religious murder and persecution, doesn't change the fact that it is a tolerant, secular and diverse country ruled by secular law. Am I missing something ? Yes you are. Israeli Arabs, while they can enjoy an excellent existence in Israel and are allowed voting rights and can serve in the Knesset are not allowed 100% the rights of Jewish Israeli's. Also for your and Buford's consumption there has been a huge struggle for decades between the Orthodox who are a huge minority and most of the Israeli Jews who are secular Jews. The orthodox have controlled certain important laws such as the fact that Israel will only officially recognized marriage ceremonies performed by orthodox Rabbi's. Again Israel is a wonderful country that is much more tolerant than an oppressive Islamic state such as Saudi Arabia. However it is incorrect to state that is only the Koran or Arab states that let theology rule civil law.

Stu-

It seems to me, that what you described is a reasonable struggle between secular and religious forces, as one might expect in an evolving world that has dealt with thousands of years of religious law ruling the land, before the advent of science, humanism, rational thought, etc.

The same is true in the US as many Christians believe the fantasies attributed to God in the Bible, should have a say in the laws of our land. Rational progress of science, human well-being, etc are thankfully mitigated the harm caused by such religious fantasies.

The reverse (or at least no progress) is occurring in Islam, as fear of Islamophobia and offending people, has become the battle cry of western liberal thought, who now place such horrible, speech and thought-stifling principles above the freedoms, lives and well-being of billions of humans who might otherwise benefit from the progress of human rights discussions and criticism of this ideology. The hypocrisy is staggering.

If one changed the name from "Islamism" to "Nazism" it would be perfectly clear. But apparently that is asking too much of the human brain. The burden is on the people that make the extraordinary claims to the exclusive revelations of God. Not on rational man and humankind. It does not matter if it is religious ideology, political ideology, or any other type of ideology.

In comment 13019488 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

You and buford should take that shit elsewhere. We get it, you don't like Islam or Muslims. That has nothing to do with the thread topic.

AP...I care deeply about Muslims and the horrible religious ideology that has enslaved them. Islam, on the other hand, I do hate. There are many minor qualities about it, but the thousands of inspiring beliefs of murder, hatred and intolerance tip the scales against it a bit.

In comment 13019488 AP in Halfmoon said:

Quote:

You and buford should take that shit elsewhere. We get it, you don't like Islam or Muslims. That has nothing to do with the thread topic.

It really has everything to do with the thread topic. The political arguments of the Israeli/"Palestinian" conflict are the equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, as compared to a religious ideology.

People don't kill themselves and innocent human beings along the way without a perceived will of God and heavenly reward. Islam is the only religion that inspires, justifies and (supposedly) rewards this behavior.

Im glad you spoke more and exposed yourself as a predujice ignorant hate monger. Saved me the trouble. Ty

And lmao @ 'i care deeply for Muslims.'

In comment 13019555 muhajir said:

Quote:

Im glad you spoke more and exposed yourself as a predujice ignorant hate monger. Saved me the trouble. Ty

Nice try. The usual cries of "Islamophobia" from people that support the right of others to claim that God has told them who should live and die.

We could all do with a lot more hatred of horrible ideas and a lot less hatred of people our religion considers subhuman. Sorry that you are unable to tell the difference.

especially with the religious aspect. Frankly the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has little to do with religion. So you guys spouting of the breitbart.com talking points are massively missing the point. This is about one people's perceived struggle vs. what they feel is an occupier. Now I am in no way siding with the Palestininas, their behavior and their morally bankrupt leadership. I am simply looking at the complication of the conflict and that I wish the more moderate forces on both sides could somehow come to the forefront and at least make some attempt to at least begin to explore the process of working it out. That way getting back to Lou's start of the thread- we don't have to have more funeral for poor beautiful children that never got to live their lives, Isralei children wouldn't have to head into daily safe rooms as sirens go off and innocent Palestinian children could have a chance at some sort of existence beyond a refugee camp that makes the Warsaw Ghetto look like the Hilton.

whats funny mike? Your radical hateful way of thinking is very similiar to the radical muslims that you keep posting about and you dont even realize it. Its a shame your sick brain has you believing that Muslims are out to kill, maim and destroy.

You clearly have a strong disdain for religion in general (judging by your comments about the bible as well) with special dislike for Islam. Thats your business of course.

Heres what I will tell you though. Theres 6 million Muslims here in the U.S., Millions all over Europe in predominantly nonmuslim countries and 1.2 billion on earth.

If the garbage you said was true, we would have 6 million murderers running around killing people here in the U.S., hundreds of thousands of suicide bombings in Europe and 1.2 billion people on a rampage world wide.

I would tell you to reasses your thinking but again, much like the sick radicals in Islam, sometimes a person just has a hateful brain. And whether theyre Muslim, Christian or Aethiest, everytime they open their mouth, the hate in their souls will become readily apparent to all. But pls keep convincing yourself your 'telling it like it is.'

In comment 13017852 hassan said:

Quote:

and the reactions are fairly telling. Where is mujahir justifying Palestinian response? He's providing context for a sentiment and combatting the idea of an overly simplistic 'good guy, bad guy' narrative most people here adhere to. Plenty of blame to go around in the middle east. However, BBI shows its typical form here. Arabs are described as 'animals', 'constantly at war with each other (never mind the fact its coming from European descendants which warred with each other mercilessly as well until about 75 years ago)', etc...from the usual suspects.

This is a common argument made by supporters of the Arabs of the Palestinian area. The "good guy/bad guy" narrative is (or should be, it isn't anymore for many reasons that are the shame of the modern world) effective, because the moral analysis of this conflict should require the basic knowledge of a 6th grader.

There is not "plenty of blame to go around" in the ME. Not at all.

I am going to take a shot at this topic in a broad way, and I hope that people forgive the meandering and lengthy post.

Israel does deserve criticism and Judaism does as well. There are the settlements and there are some ultra Orthodox viewpoints that support what could be considered similar to the tactics used by the Muslim world. But the proportion of this is so one-sided that it is almost comical to compare them.

Overseer does bring up some good points and it is asking for trouble for any state to be founded on a religion, as we can clearly see from the complete dysfunction in Muslim-dominated countries.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world has made it abundantly clear that it cannot tolerate Jews and has proven over and over again that they are a ton of fun to butcher, blame, rob and persecute. To say that the Jews “have the United States” does not seem to address the issue that Jews from all over the world cannot gain permanent entry to the US as easily as into Israel. If I am wrong on this, please feel free to correct me. This seems highly unlikely, but perhaps I am wrong….I am not an expert on the history of Jewish emigration, but it is not a stretch to see that Jews have almost never been welcome anywhere for long, and almost every historical narrative has ended in blood and tears for them. Why does the US have to be the only place that welcomes these HUMANS ?

There are about 15 million Jews in the world. I won’t belabor the fact that there are still less than there were before the event (that starts with an “H”) occurred in the 40s, since we all know that a significant portion of the Islamic world claims that this event never happened. It would require way too much humanity to actually acknowledge such a dark stain on the human race and perhaps might undermine all the other arguments about Zionism and the Zionists/Jews having caused 9/11, as well as many other major Islamic-inspired and justified terrorist attacks, as well as the blame for who is killing off the bees and melting the polar ice caps.

Even Orthodox Jews question whether or not their God hears their prayers. Millions of other Jews do not even believe in God, which is actually ALLOWED in the religion. Sure, a lot of the Old Testament is horrible, but almost no Jews take it seriously anymore. There is virtually no threat of Jews using it to declare the Jewish equivalent of Jihad upon the unsuspecting members of every other non-Jewish religion in the world. Do Muslims get let off the hook because their religion just happens to support the murder of Jews and other non-believers ? It seems that they do. I have yet to come across one “liberal” who can stand to criticize an ideology and culture that a large percentage of people think it also OK to kill gays (as long as it is not on US soil like Orlando, or maybe in Europe)…yet if others bring it up, they scream “islamophobia” as if offending people and free speech (holy fuck…you mean we can…<gasp> stomach free speech still in the world? Apparently not…Charlie Hebdo anyone ???? Those cartoons were “offensive”…..) were greater crimes than the stoning death of homosexuals. Regarding Charlie Hebdo and the murder of Theo Van Gogh, every western newspaper in the world should have put the blasphemous cartoons on their front cover as a show of heroic moral principles, but that would be asking too much from a world filled with cowards who love to call themselves “liberal” but seem to have forgotten the principles that make them so.

Returning to our main topic of discussion, “yes” the Israelis/Jews have committed some horrible acts over the years. Unfortunately, they have been forced to do this over and over again by their enemies. They have been made brutal by their enemies to a large degree. They have used more restraint, humanity, tolerance, than the US or European countries have ever used in any of the wars they have fought. They have also faced more condemnation and scorn in the international community than any country ever has had to face outside of Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, perhaps. But the big difference there is that Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were the aggressors and not the defenders. The Israelis have been forced to do the things they have done. They have repeatedly been attacked militarily and through terrorism of their civilian population. The double standard to which the international community holds them is a horrifying indictment of warped morality and cowardice. The criticism they have received is completely disproportionate to the level of restraint they have shown.

People see the occupation as having caused the problems, but this is a moral illusion. It is a failure to understand both the actual causes of the conflict, as well as an inability to understand the motives and intentions of the people on both sides.

Israel is surrounded by people who have an explicit genocidal goal. They use Koranic prophesies that call out for the earth to be soaked in Jewish blood, for the trees and stones to call out “there is a Jew behind me…come and kill him.” Not only is the “H” event denied by a majority in the Muslim world, the neighbors say “we will do it for real the first chance we get.” So the Arabs in Palestine put in power Hamas and similar corrupt leaders founded on this and then cry foul when Israel defends herself ? At what point do we hold these people accountable for this ? Do they get let off the hook because a tiny fraction of “their” lands (where there are no Jews, Christians or anyone else left for the most part) are occupied and now they are victims ?

• The Israelis build bomb shelters, the Arabs build tunnels to attack women and children. Israel gets blamed for defending their population.
• Arab children’s TV shows teach toddlers about the glory of martyrdom and jihad ? Must be Israel’s fault.

This is the moral difference between Israel and the Palestinian (and many other) Arabs (and Muslims).
If you cannot understand this and I am sure many cannot, just consider what would happen if either side had the power to do what it wanted. Surely the Israelis could wipe out Gaza and many other places, along with all its’ Muslim residents. But the truth is the Israelis do not target children and non-combatants, and spend millions and millions trying to avoid killing innocent people. Yes, soldiers freak out in war and commit war crimes, but generally speaking, the Israelis go to every reasonable and moral length to avoid killing non-combatants.

Well…we know what would happen if the Arabs had any power to inflict damage. They show it over and over again by killing with suicide bombers (only religion in the world that does this), knives, rocks. The charter of their government explicitly promotes and supports this.

The Arabs have created a culture of death and used the fundamental extremism (which is rampant in mainstream Islamic doctrine) to create the most vitriolic and loathsome ideology that has ever existed in the modern world. As a comparison, you would be hard pressed to find average Germans (maybe even non-leadership Nazis) who would so openly preach and support the outright murder of others because of their race, nationality and geography, much less who they are because of where they were born. Yet, this is supported and preached openly in vast sections of the Muslim world.

And the rest of the world criticizes Israel, because it is easier than standing up to the powder keg of the Islamic world. And as we have seen, Israel is losing this battle of propaganda more and more. And all the people who fall for this under the pretense of “liberalism” and defending against “Islamophobia” (an almost useless term as it cannot be irrational to fear Islam, given both the words and blood that comes out of the mainstream and accepted ideology of Islam).

Where is the outrage in the Muslim world and on the Left for the tens of thousands of Muslims, Yazidis, Christians shot, blown up, burned and crucified in the name of Islam ? Oh that’s right, we can only support BDS, UN condemnation, etc if it is against the Jews who killed a few Muslims, mostly in self-defense, and in many cases accidentally.

Which side of this conflict uses human shields and which side is deterred by them ? This is a specific Muslim tactic and used consistently. They believe the Jews are the evil spawn of apes and pigs and rely on the fact that these apes and pigs have the moral capacity to try NOT to kill their own Muslim children and hospital patients !!!

Can you imagine if the Israelis tried the same tactic ? Tried to use Jewish women and children as human shields against the jihadis ? It would be pointless.

If you cannot see the moral clarity of this, you need to do a much better job of understanding morality and the equality of human life….and I don’t mean the convenient “relative” kind, where you get to use your religious beliefs, or exclusive claims of the revelations of what God wants, to support your argument.

Again, all the political arguments are secondary to this….as there is no political solution when God commands Jewish (and other non-Muslim) blood, in Israel and everywhere else. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, southern Spain, the Vatican, the Caucasus, Europe, would all have a good chance of being the next Israel. After all, it is what God wants.

In comment 13019575 muhajir said:

Quote:

whats funny mike? Your radical hateful way of thinking is very similiar to the radical muslims that you keep posting about and you dont even realize it. Its a shame your sick brain has you believing that Muslims are out to kill, maim and destroy. You clearly have a strong disdain for religion in general (judging by your comments about the bible as well) with special dislike for Islam. Thats your business of course. Heres what I will tell you though. Theres 6 million Muslims here in the U.S., Millions all over Europe in predominantly nonmuslim countries and 1.2 billion on earth. If the garbage you said was true, we would have 6 million murderers running around killing people here in the U.S., hundreds of thousands of suicide bombings in Europe and 1.2 billion people on a rampage world wide. I would tell you to reasses your thinking but again, much like the sick radicals in Islam, sometimes a person just has a hateful brain. And whether theyre Muslim, Christian or Aethiest, everytime they open their mouth, the hate in their souls will become readily apparent to all. But pls keep convincing yourself your 'telling it like it is.'

Again, the usual tactic for calling the criticism of vile religious and ideological belies "hate" in the hopes that everyone else will see your poor attempt to conflate this as bigotry and hatred of actual people because of who they are.

Sorry, I have been seeing through this for years, mostly from the honest do-gooders at CAIR. Of course, the same is often used by large parts of the left, as well as the large majority of the Muslim world who prefers to blame everyone but themselves for the culture of death they have created.

Don't worry, you are not alone in your complete inability to comprehend such a basic argument.

And of course, you chime in with the conflation of assigning my criticism to all Muslims (in the US and in the world), as if I have ever said once that every Muslim is guilty of acting upon the teachings of their dreadful religious doctrine. So to be clear : I do not believe all Muslims are terrorists.

Feel better now ?

Let me ask you some questions :

Do religious beliefs accepted in Islam cause the same harm as those of other religions ? If not, why ?

Does that include all religions ? Is the Islamic world at all culpable for the bloodshed it causes in the name of Allah, the Prophet and Islam ? Or can all the blame and troubles be laid at the feet of non-Muslims ?

In comment 13019574 Stu11 said:

Quote:

especially with the religious aspect. Frankly the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has little to do with religion. So you guys spouting of the breitbart.com talking points are massively missing the point. This is about one people's perceived struggle vs. what they feel is an occupier. Now I am in no way siding with the Palestininas, their behavior and their morally bankrupt leadership. I am simply looking at the complication of the conflict and that I wish the more moderate forces on both sides could somehow come to the forefront and at least make some attempt to at least begin to explore the process of working it out. That way getting back to Lou's start of the thread- we don't have to have more funeral for poor beautiful children that never got to live their lives, Isralei children wouldn't have to head into daily safe rooms as sirens go off and innocent Palestinian children could have a chance at some sort of existence beyond a refugee camp that makes the Warsaw Ghetto look like the Hilton.

Stu - I will go ahead and apologize for hijacking this thread then, but I clearly believe that there is no political solution and this conflict is just a small part of a much bigger problem that will not become clear to people until it ends in smoking craters in major western cities and a "reset" button response by the west to the threat of Islam. The technological weaponry evolution and refusal to deal with things in any semblance of open dialogue about the teachings of Islam pretty much guarantee this future.

You are not incorrect btw, to bring up some very valid critiques of Islamic intolerance in their societies. Islamic societies are very different diverse set around the globe. But as states, they all must move away from theology based governance to a more secular blueprint.......OR, they must seek isolationism from the globe and practice in a way that works. Additionally, Radical Islamic violence towards the West cannot be justified as collateral damage.

However, you deliberately gloss over Israeli wrongs in regards to the conflict there, with seemingly little thought. Or whatever ramifications our war in Iraq may have had with regards to ISIS.b The west has hardly been a guilt free entity. By your logic, all Americans could be smeared as bloodthirsty imprerialst gluttons by the eastern hemisphere.

And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda.

In comment 13019637 hassan said:

Quote:

You are not incorrect btw, to bring up some very valid critiques of Islamic intolerance in their societies. Islamic societies are very different diverse set around the globe. But as states, they all must move away from theology based governance to a more secular blueprint.......OR, they must seek isolationism from the globe and practice in a way that works. Additionally, Radical Islamic violence towards the West cannot be justified as collateral damage. However, you deliberately gloss over Israeli wrongs in regards to the conflict there, with seemingly little thought. Or whatever ramifications our war in Iraq may have had with regards to ISIS.b The west has hardly been a guilt free entity. By your logic, all Americans could be smeared as bloodthirsty imprerialst gluttons by the eastern hemisphere. And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda.

I think some rationale give and take like this upgrades the conversation.

Of course it should. Debates should always acknowledge points made by the other side. OR, they run the risk of being a pure shouting match. Which is uninteresting.

In comment 13019637 hassan said:

Quote:

And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda.

Nobody looks upon our founding fathers as prophets or as being above criticism. If Muslims looked upon Muhammed the way Americans look upon George Washington, there wouldn't be riots all around the world because someone in Copenhagen drew a picture of him.
Wafa Sultan - ( New Window )

I've received a complaint that this thread has crossed a line that is making some people uncomfortable. So please wrap this up and/or save text if you are interesting in reviewing later. I'll have to take it down later today.

Your tangential argument really makes little sense to me. I would not disagree with what you stated but it has little applicability to my point.

So it's clear to me that criticism of the prophet should not invoke death threats. I don't see how comparing cultural norms regarding free speech has anything to do with my point.

I don't see a lot of people making the argument the US as a concept should be discredited because our founders engaged in activity that would be frowned upon today. I certainly wouldn't.

Trying to discredit Islam as a religion by citing the marriage rituals of 1500 years (many of which were shared by European culture) is pathetic and a poor argument. And says a lot about the selective use of facts.

Many of the prophets in the old and New Testament had marriages to women under the age of 10.

So sorry, if this argument holds any water for you, which it comes across as by your post, your clearly have a bone to pick.

Plenty of bones to pick about any religion in my mind. I'm not religious in the slightest-fairly agnostic myself. I don't like to see the hypocritical nonsense posted up here however.

So to summarize what your saying, Islam is an inherently evil doctrine that has enslaved the Muslims that you "care for dearly."

Israeli has indeed committed evils but they had no choice.

Funny how your an expert of Islam but make no mention of violence or intolerance of judiasm. You basically just mumbled ' we dont follow that stuff' and quickly moved on to more Islam bashing.

Very simply, many Jews believe that they are the chosen people. Thats why many Jews in Israel have no problem with the occupation or brutalization of the palestinians because theyre viewed as subhuman.

Infact many believe in judaic law that it is perfectly permissible to kill a child they MIGHT grow up to hurt a jew in the future (i guess every single palestian kid can fit that criteria right mikey??)

Here are some extremely violent verses in the old testament that Im sure you would NEVER share here because your only an expert on Islam. Not judiasm i know (wink wink)

Deuteronomy 20:10-18 (If the inhabitants of a distant city refuse to surrender into forced labour, then lay siege to the city. After they are defeated, kill all prisoners of war and take the women and children as plunder. As for the inhabitants of a chosen city, they must all die. Women, children, animals, everything, for the victimless crime of simply living in the wrong place)

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced laborand shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to
“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” (1 Samuel 15:3 NIV)

“They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys”? (Joshua 6:21 NIV)

Exodus 22:18-20

Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed.

Exodus 31:15

'For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath daymust be put to death.'

Leviticus 20:9

"If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death."


Leviticus 20:13 (Kill all homosexuals)

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death."



Leviticus 20:27

"A man or woman who is a spiritist among you must be put to death."


Leviticus 26:14-16,22,25,29-33:

But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it.

I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.

And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands.

You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins.


Deuteronomy 13:6-9 (Your brother, your children, your wife, or your closest friend must be killed if they commit the victimless crime of suggesting religious exploration)

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

I'm not religious either, nor am I remotely a religious scholar. I just thought your analogy of Muhammed to the founding fathers wasn't on point. And I didn't want to get into the whole religious side of things because it's been discussed repeatedly here and always--as it will today--ends in the deletion of the thread. But as the role model for the religion, I do think Muhammed's story/history has contributed to the problem.

But as I've said before, I put 90% of the blame on the leadership in the Arab world and not the people.

"Infact many believe in judaic law that it is perfectly permissible to kill a child they MIGHT grow up to hurt a jew in the future (i guess every single palestian kid can fit that criteria right mikey??)"

I were Mike in marin (but the Muslim version) i would take each one of the above verses and say you know what Jews believe and teach their children???? They teach them that you should kill gays, and enslave people, and kill anyone that doesnt believe in their religion, and they believe that if a kid may possibility grow up and in the far future have a chance of hurting a jew you can kill them now decade's before they ever commit a crime..etc

I would never do that though, because painting people with a hateful broadbrush is ignorance thats disguised as unfiltered 'truth'.

He's a classic selective outrager. He also trots out the old 'there is no such thing as islamophobia it's a ploy to silence criticism'.....islamophobia is fairly real when innocent Muslims are targeted with hate crimes here in the us at an increasing rate. Perhaps the term is overused to silence debate, but denying it's real is just more nonsense.

Valid critiques are always fair game in my mind. Lots to criticize about the Middle East and even the moderate followers of Islam today not distancing themselves enough from its more extreme elements......

But when it's one sided, lacks self reflection and critique, I'm not inclined to listen to the messenger.

In comment 13019737 Big Al said:

Quote:

"Infact many believe in judaic law that it is perfectly permissible to kill a child they MIGHT grow up to hurt a jew in the future (i guess every single palestian kid can fit that criteria right mikey??)"

Here big Al. Of course only the extemists would believe that. But if it were an Islamic doctine, Mikey would tell everyone that ALL muslims live by it and have it on their bumper stickers

"Just weeks after the arrest of alleged Jewish terrorist, Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel.

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation.

Shapiro based the majority of his teachings on passages quoted from the Bible, to which he adds his opinions and beliefs."


Link - ( New Window )

My use of the founding forefathers was to illustrate a point. A simple one. Moral norms change considerably. A better analogy would have been to cite other prophets.

If Muhammad's lifestyle choices bother you regarding his relationship with child brides, I'd ask if you analyze Jewish and Christian prophets with the same magnifying glass. As I've never heard this argument apply to anyone else, my guess is no.

If Muhammad's lifestyle choices bother you regarding his use of violence, his tactics were shaped by the reality of the conditions he lived in and the threats he faced. I don't see Muhammad as particularly different than other European leaders who used military might.

Muhammad sought to bring order to a tribal society that practiced female child burials, was corrupt and slave driven, and gluttonous in his eyes. His method was fairly Machiavellian before Machiavelli.

In other words, if Muhammad particularly bothers you and you don't share the same reservations regarding other historical figures your being biased. I can't answer that....

Its just sad that some uninformed people would read Mikes garbage and actually believe their Muslim neighbor is violent and evil and waiting for a 'tree' and 'rock' to tell them there's a jew behind it, go kill them.

So everything i wrote isnt for mike, he's warped. Its for everyone else reading.

Btw Mike, you do realize if someone hated black people too they could spout off crime in black areas, rituals in african tribe's and nations, genocides they've committed, etc. If someone wants to hate any group of people they can find material for it. You just happen to hate Islam and Muslims. Theres Mike in mandins just like you that hates jews, theres a mike in mandrin that hates Hindus, theres a M n M that hates blacks. Many different hateful people in the world, your not unique in that regard.

In comment 13019756 muhajir said:

Quote:

In comment 13019737 Big Al said: Quote: "Infact many believe in judaic law that it is perfectly permissible to kill a child they MIGHT grow up to hurt a jew in the future (i guess every single palestian kid can fit that criteria right mikey??)" Here big Al. Of course only the extemists would believe that. But if it were an Islamic doctine, Mikey would tell everyone that ALL muslims live by it and have it on their bumper stickers "Just weeks after the arrest of alleged Jewish terrorist, Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel. Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation. Shapiro based the majority of his teachings on passages quoted from the Bible, to which he adds his opinions and beliefs." Link - ( New Window )

i would then change your wording to a few crazies who most Jews who hear this stuff would immediately condemn.

Some people believe they're experts on other peoples religions yet dont take into account their own faiths teachings or their own peoples history/present (which may actually be alot more extreme without them even realizing it). But when someone else points that out for them the reply is 'well if you dont like us so much why dont you leave our country.' Lol

In comment 13019768 Big Al said:

Quote:

In comment 13019756 muhajir said: Quote: In comment 13019737 Big Al said: Quote: "Infact many believe in judaic law that it is perfectly permissible to kill a child they MIGHT grow up to hurt a jew in the future (i guess every single palestian kid can fit that criteria right mikey??)" Here big Al. Of course only the extemists would believe that. But if it were an Islamic doctine, Mikey would tell everyone that ALL muslims live by it and have it on their bumper stickers "Just weeks after the arrest of alleged Jewish terrorist, Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel. Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation. Shapiro based the majority of his teachings on passages quoted from the Bible, to which he adds his opinions and beliefs." Link - ( New Window ) i would then change your wording to a few crazies who most Jews who hear this stuff would immediately condemn.

Yesss. Now lets also change Mikes wording for everything he wrote to that very same thing pls

My thoughts on religious scripture is best summed up by Pat Condell in the below video. It's worth a viewing even if you don't like Condell in general, he knocks this one out of the park.....
God the Psycho - ( New Window )

More of the Islamic world has to get to the point where they don't treat the Quran like literal dogma. To your point, Jews mostly have with the Old Testament, but Jews are typically much more secular through mutlicultural experience. Muslims also more likely belong to a homogenized society under Less freedom and exposure and also more likely to be third world.

The Muslim world is going through a painful transformation. It will be better in a hundred years.

Of course. Easier and lazier to blame the other than to be thoughtful and contemplative and consider everything.

3 attacks by Israeli citizens on Palestinians during the current intifada, 1 of debatable...

280 attacks by Muslim Palestinians on Jews irrespective of whether the are military and police targets or little girls sleeping in their beds or pregnant women...

One thing I know for sure, Palestinian leaders have said it on record:

If the balance of military power were reversed, if the Palestinians had the weapons and military and the Israelis merely private guns and some kassam missiles...

The Israelis would be wiped out in a matter of days.

Or as the Palestinian leader put it: "if we had their weapons this conflict would be over in a matter of days."

You are way off on your accusations.

The most common feeling of the average Israeli is just as Golda Meir once said:

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for making us kill their children."

Paraphrased. But it remains true to this day.

I think you are missing mujahir's point. Anyone can quote scripture and then paint a broad stroke. And conveniently ignore other scripture on their side.

Mike in Marin cites Muhammad as a pedophile, blantantly ignoring the marriage norms of the day AND the very history of all hydro christian prophets. For example.

Judeo Christian prophets.....

In comment 13019792 BlueLou said:

Quote:

3 attacks by Israeli citizens on Palestinians during the current intifada, 1 of debatable... 280 attacks by Muslim Palestinians on Jews irrespective of whether the are military and police targets or little girls sleeping in their beds or pregnant women... One thing I know for sure, Palestinian leaders have said it on record: If the balance of military power were reversed, if the Palestinians had the weapons and military and the Israelis merely private guns and some kassam missiles... The Israelis would be wiped out in a matter of days. Or as the Palestinian leader put it: "if we had their weapons this conflict would be over in a matter of days." You are way off on your accusations. The most common feeling of the average Israeli is just as Golda Meir once said: "We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for making us kill their children." Paraphrased. But it remains true to this day.

Bluelou, whats the 'wtf' about? Do you really believe theres only been 3 palestinian deaths in the current intifada? Deaths have been in the thousands and thousands, men women and childred from Israeli strikes and raids into some of the most densly populated areas in the world.

Btw, everything i posted about judiasm and extremist views is to highlight why SHOULDNT be painting each other with a hateful broadbrush.

Again, the Palestian Israeli conflict is a political one. Does Mike believe that Christian Palestinians are perfectly fine with living under a humiliating occupations and dont have any disdain for getting their roads cut off by unmanned road blocks (preventing ambulances from using main roads), having water and electricity cut off as a collective punishment to hundreds of thousands when 1 palestinian attacks, having a government policy that an entire home will literally bull dozed when one member of a palestinian family commits a terrorist act (that would be like having a rule for All blacks here in the U.S., if a member of your family commits a murder, the government will literally bulldoze the family's entire home as punishment for raising a murder)

Long list but yes... political conflict. And no this intifada isnt 3 Palestinian deaths vs 280 Israelis attacked. Far from it.

In comment 13019812 hassan said:

Quote:

I think you are missing mujahir's point. Anyone can quote scripture and then paint a broad stroke. And conveniently ignore other scripture on their side. Mike in Marin cites Muhammad as a pedophile, blantantly ignoring the marriage norms of the day AND the very history of all hydro christian prophets. For example.

Yes Hassan. Ty

It's somewhat misleading to cite only acts of terror. Your point is spot on regarding military actions and deaths caused by.

If I rolled my eyes any harder at that golda meir quote you posted they would literally fall out of the sockets. Take off your rose colored glasses bloulou.

When Israel targets missile launchers placed in civilian populations it is an act of self-defense. How can you compare the two? Even hardcore liberals like Liz Warren and Bernie Sanders understand that....
Elizabeth Warren defends Israel
Bernie Sanders battles hecklers over Israel

No military in the history of warfare has done more to avoid enemy civilians casualties than has Israel...
Colonel Richard Kemp on Israel tactics in a warzone

In comment 13019820 muhajir said:

Quote:

If I rolled my eyes any harder at that golda meir quote you posted they would literally fall out of the sockets. Take off your rose colored glasses bloulou.

Boom. That's exactly the problem Mike is talking about. You don't even understand Golda Meir's post.

Jeeezusfuclingchrist you just don't get it...

Of course I don't think onlyb3 Palestinians have been killed during the current intifada. The ratio of them vs us is always I dunno 10:1?

In every war and subway crisis, something like 10:1. We have the world's greatest army on a per capita basis, the Palestinians attack with knives.

I am the one who posted the data and list of incidents during the current intifada, I am not spewing bullshit I gave solid sources for both sides.

The facts remain, in all acts of war between the Jews and Arabs, one side acts and the other reacts. And one side can't accept losing, so they play the terror game.

In comment 13019820 muhajir said:

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If I rolled my eyes any harder at that golda meir quote you posted they would literally fall out of the sockets. Take off your rose colored glasses bloulou.

You can roll your eyes all you want, but you're not doing the Palestinian civilian population any good when you play the moral equivalence card. And you talk about the humiliation of the so-called occupation, but nobody humiliates the Palestinians more than their own leadership. They have no civili liberties and it's not Israel who denies them their liberty but Hamas and Fatah. The Arabs living in Israel have far more rights than the Arabs living in any Muslim country you can name including Turkey.

The palestinian leadership doesnt have the Palestinian people under occupation. The Israelis do.

Bluelou, ratio of deaths is exponentially higher then 10:1 and in addition to specific death totals, theres palestinians maimed and disfigured by Israeli bombings and raids. That and the overall squalor and humiliation of daily life in the occupied territories so its not just about the death totals.

In comment 13019846 muhajir said:

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The palestinian leadership doesnt have the Palestinian people under occupation.

Sure they do. If it wasn't for the Palestinian leadership, there would be no occupation of the disputed territories. The Pals would've had a state long ago. It's their leadership oppressing them and holding them back. Not Israel.

Reply is well if the terrorists wouldnt attack then Israel wouldnt have to respond militarily. Which brings us back to the chicken and the egg argument yet again. In this case though, its more linear. Palestinians under brutal occupation >>>attack Israel>>> israeli disproportionately responds with military force economic punishmennts, arbitrary arrests etc>>> Palestinians become out raged and attack sporadically in response.

Of course terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians are horrible, but that is why the occupation needs to end. So long as palestinian youth continue to see there homes demolished, family members killed, and 'settlers' walking in and stealing their land, there will continue to be that minuscule percentage of the population that becomes radicalized. It would be no different then in any other time or part of the world with similiar conditions.

In comment 13019852 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 13019846 muhajir said: Quote: The palestinian leadership doesnt have the Palestinian people under occupation. Sure they do. If it wasn't for the Palestinian leadership, there would be no occupation of the disputed territories. The Pals would've had a state long ago. It's their leadership oppressing them and holding them back. Not Israel.

Because they didnt accept that ridiculous State proposal over a decade ago? Anyone that read the details knew it was an unacceptable deal. Do you think the Palestinian authority preferred to be under occupation rather then accepting the proposal and becoming the leaders of a new nation??

In comment 13019709 hassan said:

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Many of the prophets in the old and New Testament had marriages to women under the age of 10. So sorry, if this argument holds any water for you, which it comes across as by your post, your clearly have a bone to pick.

They are not still doing it and cutting off their clitorises. See the difference?

In comment 13019637 hassan said:

Quote:

You are not incorrect btw, to bring up some very valid critiques of Islamic intolerance in their societies. Islamic societies are very different diverse set around the globe. But as states, they all must move away from theology based governance to a more secular blueprint.......OR, they must seek isolationism from the globe and practice in a way that works. Additionally, Radical Islamic violence towards the West cannot be justified as collateral damage. However, you deliberately gloss over Israeli wrongs in regards to the conflict there, with seemingly little thought. Or whatever ramifications our war in Iraq may have had with regards to ISIS.b The west has hardly been a guilt free entity. By your logic, all Americans could be smeared as bloodthirsty imprerialst gluttons by the eastern hemisphere. And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda.

Romans, Spartans, etc were not doing it in the name of God and don't still do it. Let me know when it starts to become OK to marry 9 year olds and claim it is allowed by God, in downtown Rome these days.

We all know better than this, these days....all except millions of followers of Islam.

In comment 13019706 hassan said:

Quote:

Your tangential argument really makes little sense to me. I would not disagree with what you stated but it has little applicability to my point. So it's clear to me that criticism of the prophet should not invoke death threats. I don't see how comparing cultural norms regarding free speech has anything to do with my point. I don't see a lot of people making the argument the US as a concept should be discredited because our founders engaged in activity that would be frowned upon today. I certainly wouldn't. Trying to discredit Islam as a religion by citing the marriage rituals of 1500 years (many of which were shared by European culture) is pathetic and a poor argument. And says a lot about the selective use of facts.

Hassan- why do you keep comparing other potential concepts and ideology that DOES NOT make CLAIMS OF GOD to kill, maim, suicide-bomb other people ?

See the difference ?

In comment 13019868 Mike in Marin said:

Quote:

In comment 13019637 hassan said: Quote: You are not incorrect btw, to bring up some very valid critiques of Islamic intolerance in their societies. Islamic societies are very different diverse set around the globe. But as states, they all must move away from theology based governance to a more secular blueprint.......OR, they must seek isolationism from the globe and practice in a way that works. Additionally, Radical Islamic violence towards the West cannot be justified as collateral damage. However, you deliberately gloss over Israeli wrongs in regards to the conflict there, with seemingly little thought. Or whatever ramifications our war in Iraq may have had with regards to ISIS.b The west has hardly been a guilt free entity. By your logic, all Americans could be smeared as bloodthirsty imprerialst gluttons by the eastern hemisphere. And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda. Romans, Spartans, etc were not doing it in the name of God and don't still do it. Let me know when it starts to become OK to marry 9 year olds and claim it is allowed by God, in downtown Rome these days. We all know better than this, these days....all except millions of followers of Islam.

Please provide data on Muslim marriage to 9 year olds. Thanks.

You specifically attacked Muhammad as a pedophile. Don't try to twist the story now.

Child brides are common in India and Africa as well. So is genetal mutilation-this is a cultural phenomenon and not sanctioned anywhere by Islam.

In comment 13019812 hassan said:

Quote:

I think you are missing mujahir's point. Anyone can quote scripture and then paint a broad stroke. And conveniently ignore other scripture on their side. Mike in Marin cites Muhammad as a pedophile, blantantly ignoring the marriage norms of the day AND the very history of all hydro christian prophets. For example.

Hassan - I do not claim that other historical figures were OK with raping prepubescent girls...I only claim that it is still happening in Islam and is protected because of some warped belief that religion (specifically Islam, it's the only religion that gets such a free pass) deserves some type of freedom from criticism.

Not in my book. It's the worst ideology that still exists in the world...and even worse, it is supported by the left, regardless of the blood, rape and murder.

Not specifically

In comment 13019874 chris r said:

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In comment 13019868 Mike in Marin said: Quote: In comment 13019637 hassan said: Quote: You are not incorrect btw, to bring up some very valid critiques of Islamic intolerance in their societies. Islamic societies are very different diverse set around the globe. But as states, they all must move away from theology based governance to a more secular blueprint.......OR, they must seek isolationism from the globe and practice in a way that works. Additionally, Radical Islamic violence towards the West cannot be justified as collateral damage. However, you deliberately gloss over Israeli wrongs in regards to the conflict there, with seemingly little thought. Or whatever ramifications our war in Iraq may have had with regards to ISIS.b The west has hardly been a guilt free entity. By your logic, all Americans could be smeared as bloodthirsty imprerialst gluttons by the eastern hemisphere. And btw, tarring Mohammad as a rapist is an old classic conservative argument to discredit his philosophy--the social norms of almost every society including Romans was to marry women as young as 8 and they were often pregnant between 11-14. This is one of the most selective bogus arguments out there. Our founding fathers were slaveowners as well, moral compasses are reset constantly over time. Even as you have some decent arguments, this really discredits any valid critique you may have and puts you in the camp of someone with an agenda. Romans, Spartans, etc were not doing it in the name of God and don't still do it. Let me know when it starts to become OK to marry 9 year olds and claim it is allowed by God, in downtown Rome these days. We all know better than this, these days....all except millions of followers of Islam. Please provide data on Muslim marriage to 9 year olds. Thanks.

Chris - here's a link. feel free to use google any time you want.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13019875 hassan said:

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You specifically attacked Muhammad as a pedophile. Don't try to twist the story now. Child brides are common in India and Africa as well. So is genetal mutilation-this is a cultural phenomenon and not sanctioned anywhere by Islam.

Of course I did. Because he was. He made up a religious rule that supported his desires....and still millions of girls around the world suffer because of it.

Why would I bring up others ? Are we discussing the fantasy religious priveledges of Ghengis Khan? And how they are still harming millions of Mongols ?

Your constant changing of the subject and conflation with other historical examples that are not longer relevant in the world, are not helping you.

In comment 13019875 hassan said:

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You specifically attacked Muhammad as a pedophile. Don't try to twist the story now. Child brides are common in India and Africa as well. So is genetal mutilation-this is a cultural phenomenon and not sanctioned anywhere by Islam.

That is true. Why are you cherry picking the one thing in Islam that is unfortunately practiced by other ignorant people ?

Let's stick to the topics.

When are you going to answer my questions ?

I have answered and responded to all of yours (or almost all).

In comment 13019733 muhajir said:

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So to summarize what your saying, Islam is an inherently evil doctrine that has enslaved the Muslims that you "care for dearly." Israeli has indeed committed evils but they had no choice. Funny how your an expert of Islam but make no mention of violence or intolerance of judiasm. You basically just mumbled ' we dont follow that stuff' and quickly moved on to more Islam bashing. Very simply, many Jews believe that they are the chosen people. Thats why many Jews in Israel have no problem with the occupation or brutalization of the palestinians because theyre viewed as subhuman. Infact many believe in judaic law that it is perfectly permissible to kill a child they MIGHT grow up to hurt a jew in the future (i guess every single palestian kid can fit that criteria right mikey??) Here are some extremely violent verses in the old testament that Im sure you would NEVER share here because your only an expert on Islam. Not judiasm i know (wink wink) Deuteronomy 20:10-18 (If the inhabitants of a distant city refuse to surrender into forced labour, then lay siege to the city. After they are defeated, kill all prisoners of war and take the women and children as plunder. As for the inhabitants of a chosen city, they must all die. Women, children, animals, everything, for the victimless crime of simply living in the wrong place) When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced laborand shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to “Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” (1 Samuel 15:3 NIV) “They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys”? (Joshua 6:21 NIV) Exodus 22:18-20 Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed. Exodus 31:15 'For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath daymust be put to death.' Leviticus 20:9 "If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death." Leviticus 20:13 (Kill all homosexuals) "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death." Leviticus 20:27 "A man or woman who is a spiritist among you must be put to death." Leviticus 26:14-16,22,25,29-33: But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted. And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. Deuteronomy 13:6-9 (Your brother, your children, your wife, or your closest friend must be killed if they commit the victimless crime of suggesting religious exploration) If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.

I have addressed this already; NO ONE PRACTICES THE HATRED IN THIS TEXT ANYMORE.

It is virtually completely invalidated as a way for human beings to act, unless it is people practicing Islam.

you seem to have a serious intellectual challenge with separating:

The people

From

The ideas that inspire and justify the peoples behavior towards other people. Made under the fantasy of it being ok with God or even commanded by him.

In comment 13019859 muhajir said:

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Reply is well if the terrorists wouldnt attack then Israel wouldnt have to respond militarily. Which brings us back to the chicken and the egg argument yet again. In this case though, its more linear. Palestinians under brutal occupation >>>attack Israel>>> israeli disproportionately responds with military force economic punishmennts, arbitrary arrests etc>>> Palestinians become out raged and attack sporadically in response.

How convenient that you leave out why the Palestinians are under 'occupation' in the first place.

In comment 13019780 Milton said:

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My thoughts on religious scripture is best summed up by Pat Condell in the below video. It's worth a viewing even if you don't like Condell in general, he knocks this one out of the park..... God the Psycho - ( New Window )

That guy is amazing, though somewhat indelicate in his tirades. I fucking love that guy.

But Sam Harris is the master of analyzing the morality and lack thereof in Islam and other religions. I recommend checking him out. I am not an atheist, but he is 100% accurate. and he knows scriptures better than most.

You are calling him a pedophile applying 21st century moral norms to this discussion. To be fair you expanded it to others when asked about it (and this point is lost in most fundamentalist Christians who cite this tidbit)......but this is a point for someone with an agenda. There was nothing about the law that was illogical AT THE TIME. Critiquing its application today IS A WHOLE different discussion which brings up the next point......

I bring up other cultures, because Islam is practiced multiculturally and often cultural norms (like genital mutilation) apply. This is NOT an Islamic mandate (genetal mutilation). You consider this cultural comparison irelevant but it's fairly important.

You cannot separate the religion from the political economic and cultural context it exists in.

Like I've said? Plenty to critique about Islam and religion and general. But when you make ridiculous smears and are selective and willing to give your side a pass it loses effectiveness. Of course your a Sam Harris fan as I recall and this is his specialty so I'm not surprised...

In comment 13019904 hassan said:

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You are calling him a pedophile applying 21st century moral norms to this discussion. To be fair you expanded it to others when asked about it (and this point is lost in most fundamentalist Christians who cite this tidbit)......but this is a point for someone with an agenda. There was nothing about the law that was illogical AT THE TIME. Critiquing its application today IS A WHOLE different discussion which brings up the next point...... I bring up other cultures, because Islam is practiced multiculturally and often cultural norms (like genital mutilation) apply. This is NOT an Islamic mandate (genetal mutilation). You consider this cultural comparison irelevant but it's fairly important. You cannot separate the religion from the political economic and cultural context it exists in. Like I've said? Plenty to critique about Islam and religion and general. But when you make ridiculous smears and are selective and willing to give your side a pass it loses effectiveness. Of course your a Sam Harris fan as I recall and this is his specialty so I'm not surprised...

You are really grasping at straws, Hassan.

1. I could almost allow your pedophile argument, if it weren't for the fact that
a. Mohammed made up the rule of the religion to allow for it. So he gets the blame.
b. Again, it is still happening in his name.

But let's move on from this relatively benign practice in Islam to intolerance, murder and the enslavement of women.

Is it ok to discuss how Islam is still the only religion that preaches and practices this on a grand scale ?

And is the only religion that promotes suicide bombing ?

How about the wide support for death to homosexuals ?

Are any of these practices built up the beliefs of a man who claims to have ridden a flying horse worthy of criticism ?

I suppose we should all just back off and let the poor Islamists practice their dreadful religion in peace.

Same goes for the Buddhists....We wouldn't want to interrupt their spreading of peace and serenity across the world during the holy month of Meditation....oops...that's right, they don't practice the murdering of sub-humans that do not accept their religion.

The problems with Islamic Fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam.

Has been so massively discredited in being expert of picking apart moral issues of things he does not agree with like Islam and other religions while being preposterously hypocritical in defending institutions he aligns with. Not surprised you are a follower....

your political argument well. I agree to some extent.

But then why does Islam get a pass on everything else ?

You (and most others) use the religious freedoms argument when you need it, and then reluctantly blame "political" Islam when you get called to the carpet.

In comment 13019897 buford said:

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In comment 13019859 muhajir said: Quote: Reply is well if the terrorists wouldnt attack then Israel wouldnt have to respond militarily. Which brings us back to the chicken and the egg argument yet again. In this case though, its more linear. Palestinians under brutal occupation >>>attack Israel>>> israeli disproportionately responds with military force economic punishmennts, arbitrary arrests etc>>> Palestinians become out raged and attack sporadically in response. How convenient that you leave out why the Palestinians are under 'occupation' in the first place.

Ding Ding Ding. Because they rejected peace, waged wars they they lost and have been complaining about it ever since.

In comment 13019912 hassan said:

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Has been so massively discredited in being expert of picking apart moral issues of things he does not agree with like Islam and other religions while being preposterously hypocritical in defending institutions he aligns with. Not surprised you are a follower....

Thank you for confirming that this is the only argument you have left. I argue all these in a lot more detail with people a lot smarter than you. Usually they just stop responding....but you show your hand and prove that your ideology is indefensible.

No go read a book about morality and try and apply some principles of human well-being to your horrid religious beliefs and excuses you make for it.

still alive and well.

In comment 13019921 bc4life said:

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still alive and well.

BC....a person not smart enough to understand the difference between people and ideology.

Consistent with the time, not outside the moral norms of the time. Butchering him specifically for that seems ridiculous. How is this a straw man? Most religions have laws that make no sense today. Restrictions on pork? Probably due to health concerns that no longer apply.

You clearly choose not to read my response. Which was its applicability today certainly should be brought into question. The practice of early forced marriage does not apply to Muslim Americans for example. In many cultures (like India for example) early marriage is across the board and Muslims adhere to this as well -there are practical reasons such as economic standing for family why this happens. Your implication is Islam by ideological mandate forced women into early marriage-why is this not happening in the west then? Where it does still happen, well, it's a mark against their society.

As far as mandated murder, the scripture game shows the old and New Testament has plenty of language supporting the same. Yes, jihadists are taking this literally and it's a problem globally. Have I argued otherwise?

We in the west were 73pct in favor of the Iraq war. A complete butcher job nonsense war. Did you support that war Mike?

I mentioned I'm agnostic. It's been clear you don't read the content of the posts.

in any argument to discuss the backgrounds of Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, etc.

If people today choose to follow things from thousands of years ago, that's on them, not the origins of the religion.

I wouldn't cast stones at L. Ron Hubbard for writing science fiction, but I sure as hell would mock the idiots who follow Scientology.

Why don't you take a shot at answering these questions ?

Do religious beliefs accepted in Islam cause the same harm as those of other religions ? If not, why ?

Does that include all religions ? Is the Islamic world at all culpable for the bloodshed it causes in the name of Allah, the Prophet and Islam ? Or can all the blame and troubles be laid at the feet of non-Muslims ?

In comment 13019931 hassan said:

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I mentioned I'm agnostic. It's been clear you don't read the content of the posts.

I call "bullshit."

Moral corruption in religion is fascinating, but it's not intellectually an expedient or efficient condemnation of religion or its application.

All belief systems have an element of relativism to time and place, some facets age better than others when applied to the current (albeit relative) time and place. Historical moral absolutism applied to any one thing will reveal weaknesses in the joints.

I'd like to think we live in somewhat of a post Nietzsche-ian age, where the boogieman of religion being this nefarious wind blowing unwitting man in the direction of the desire of the few is as hackneyed of a notion as Nietzsche posited a mystical sorcerous god granted wishes like a genie was.

Blaming Mohammad for the actions of modern extremist Islam is boring. More fascinating is the mental health, socio-economic, anthropological and geo-political factors that cause forced immigration, poverty, lack of healthcare, lack of education and desperation.

You also have to separate the belief from the actions. The human condition is predicated on the logical and illogical. What one does is far more important to social order than what one believes. If the actions are logical and the motivation illogical is that any less productive for society? Isn't it more productive to influence the actions than the beliefs?

Assuming condemnation or even destruction of the belief system is going to net anything, is as illogical as praying Zeus strikes the guy who stole your parking spot with lightening.

In comment 13019936 christian said:

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Moral corruption in religion is fascinating, but it's not intellectually an expedient or efficient condemnation of religion or its application. All belief systems have an element of relativism to time and place, some facets age better than others when applied to the current (albeit relative) time and place. Historical moral absolutism applied to any one thing will reveal weaknesses in the joints. I'd like to think we live in somewhat of a post Nietzsche-ian age, where the boogieman of religion being this nefarious wind blowing unwitting man in the direction of the desire of the few is as hackneyed of a notion as Nietzsche posited a mystical sorcerous god granted wishes like a genie was. Blaming Mohammad for the actions of modern extremist Islam is boring. More fascinating is the mental health, socio-economic, anthropological and geo-political factors that cause forced immigration, poverty, lack of healthcare, lack of education and desperation. You also have to separate the belief from the actions. The human condition is predicated on the logical and illogical. What one does is far more important to social order than what one believes. If the actions are logical and the motivation illogical is that any less productive for society? Isn't it more productive to influence the actions than the beliefs? Assuming condemnation or even destruction of the belief system is going to net anything, is as illogical as praying Zeus strikes the guy who stole your parking spot with lightening.

Except that the beliefs are the reason that Islam inspires and justifies suicide bombings, the killing of virtually everyone but devout Muslims and on and on.

Every other religion and ideology/belief system in the history of man has properly been discredited due to conflicts with human well-being.

The results from a human well-being standpoint have been revolutionary and beneficial. Why does Islam get a pass over and over ?

It is the worst of all of them, yet it is summarily protected by the left-leaning intelligentsia, regardless of the damage caused by its' beliefs.

Why do you think that is ?

In comment 13019936 christian said:

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Moral corruption in religion is fascinating, but it's not intellectually an expedient or efficient condemnation of religion or its application. All belief systems have an element of relativism to time and place, some facets age better than others when applied to the current (albeit relative) time and place. Historical moral absolutism applied to any one thing will reveal weaknesses in the joints. I'd like to think we live in somewhat of a post Nietzsche-ian age, where the boogieman of religion being this nefarious wind blowing unwitting man in the direction of the desire of the few is as hackneyed of a notion as Nietzsche posited a mystical sorcerous god granted wishes like a genie was. Blaming Mohammad for the actions of modern extremist Islam is boring. More fascinating is the mental health, socio-economic, anthropological and geo-political factors that cause forced immigration, poverty, lack of healthcare, lack of education and desperation. You also have to separate the belief from the actions. The human condition is predicated on the logical and illogical. What one does is far more important to social order than what one believes. If the actions are logical and the motivation illogical is that any less productive for society? Isn't it more productive to influence the actions than the beliefs? Assuming condemnation or even destruction of the belief system is going to net anything, is as illogical as praying Zeus strikes the guy who stole your parking spot with lightening.

So I guess it is OK if we go back to burning witches ?

You are accusing me of being religious? I am sitting here eating during Ramadan. I drink regularly. I was born in NYC and have a secularist viewpoint. Committed plenty of sins in my life, I've been plenty critical of Islam even on this thread. In fact, I even criticized the prophet earlier Mike! So if I was so religious would I dare to do so?

Islam today, which represents a large swath of the poor nations and the losers of globalization, has multiple issues and is going through a humongous political upheaval.

There is nothing more inherently violent about Islamic societies when we consider the amount of violence generated compared to Europe UNTIL recently as of the last 25-50 years. Today YES, it is, for the reasons I
mentioned, along with wrongheaded responses to Israel, without making this a lengthy diatribe.

You don't think if large swaths of the Judaeo/Christian world were under the same political and social conditions as much of the Muslim world, there wouldn't be active factions resorting to desperation, manipulation, violence and deprecated tenants of their religion?

There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror.

There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity.

Very well put....

In comment 13019946 hassan said:

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You are accusing me of being religious? I am sitting here eating during Ramadan. I drink regularly. I was born in NYC and have a secularist viewpoint. Committed plenty of sins in my life, I've been plenty critical of Islam even on this thread. In fact, I even criticized the prophet earlier Mike! So if I was so religious would I dare to do so? Islam today, which represents a large swath of the poor nations and the losers of globalization, has multiple issues and is going through a humongous political upheaval. There is nothing more inherently violent about Islamic societies when we consider the amount of violence generated compared to Europe UNTIL recently as of the last 25-50 years. Today YES, it is, for the reasons I mentioned, along with wrongheaded responses to Israel, without making this a lengthy diatribe.

I'm not accusing you of anything except defending an ideology that is directly responsible for the death and persecution of millions of people, Muslim and non-Muslim.

You cannot seem to understand the harm caused by beliefs that God says it's OK to kill people in this day and age, because he said so.

A condemnation of some forms of jihad is not enough.

A contextualization of pedophilia in history is not enough.

A tepid attempt to blame "political" Islam is not enough.

Hiding behind "occupation" and sacrificing intellectual honesty and human well-being and universal morality is not enough.

Arguing that Islam gets a pass because of history is not enough.

Anything but acknowledging that this ideology is responsible for 28,000 deadly attacks since 9/11 is not enough.

In comment 13019948 christian said:

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You don't think if large swaths of the Judaeo/Christian world were under the same political and social conditions as much of the Muslim world, there wouldn't be active factions resorting to desperation, manipulation, violence and deprecated tenants of their religion? There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror. There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity.

What about the Christians, Yazidi's and Jews living in the ME. The ones who are being targeted by Isis and other groups. Do you see them committing acts of terror?

In comment 13019861 muhajir said:

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Because they didnt accept that ridiculous State proposal over a decade ago? Anyone that read the details knew it was an unacceptable deal. Do you think the Palestinian authority preferred to be under occupation rather then accepting the proposal and becoming the leaders of a new nation??

There were a number who thought the deal was not only acceptable, but as good a deal as they could ever expect. At this point, and given the divide between Hamas and Fatah, it is impossible for the Palestinian leadership to accept any deal that Israel would also agree to. And I don't see that changing in the next ten or twenty years or longer. So the cycle of war and ceasefire is destined to go on indefinitely with the Israelis prospering, but living in fear and tragedy; and the Palestinians living in death and squalor and under the oppression of their own corrupt and terrorist leadership.

So in such a stand-off, who needs to be saved from themselves the most? Who would benefit the most from a two-state solution being forced upon them whether they like it or not? The answer, of course, is the Palestinian people. Which is why I believe the only solution to the crisis is for the international community to step in and negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians an agreement with Israel that will be recogized as legitimate by America, Europe, Russia, China, Japan, and basically as many countries as possible.And then Hamas and Islamic Jihad need to be crushed, assuming they don't lay down their arms willingly.

And then the Palestinian people will finally free, free not of Israel, but of their own corrupt and terrorist leadership. Gaza is not the world's biggest open air prison, it's the world's biggest open air hostage crisis.

Including 15 kids

In comment 13019948 christian said:

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You don't think if large swaths of the Judaeo/Christian world were under the same political and social conditions as much of the Muslim world, there wouldn't be active factions resorting to desperation, manipulation, violence and deprecated tenants of their religion? There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror. There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity.

Ahhhh, so you actually think that Islam has good reasons for it ?

How many Tibetan buddhist suicide bombers have used the teachings in their religion to attack the Chinese ?

Your correct in implying you are not racist. But bigot, absolutely. BC called it right.

the members of a religion take some responsibility for the death and destruction created by the specific beliefs about how they worship and honor God ?

In comment 13019960 Mike in Marin said:

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the members of a religion take some responsibility for the death and destruction created by the specific beliefs about how they worship and honor God ?

Sorry, but I have to agree.

In comment 13019958 hassan said:

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Your correct in implying you are not racist. But bigot, absolutely. BC called it right.

Not true, but still much, much preferred to claiming that God gives me the right to murder and enslave others.

Stop changing the subject and answer the questions about Islam that I posed to you above, if you are brave enough.

In comment 13019961 Ned In Atlanta said:

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In comment 13019960 Mike in Marin said: Quote: the members of a religion take some responsibility for the death and destruction created by the specific beliefs about how they worship and honor God ? Sorry, but I have to agree.

Ned - There is NOTHING to be sorry for. It is completely rational to question fantasies masquerading as religious beliefs, to the extent that they cause pain to others and are immoral.

This is a basic principle of western liberalism and the reason we used to have free speech.

In comment 13019952 buford said:

Quote:

In comment 13019948 christian said: Quote: You don't think if large swaths of the Judaeo/Christian world were under the same political and social conditions as much of the Muslim world, there wouldn't be active factions resorting to desperation, manipulation, violence and deprecated tenants of their religion? There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror. There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity. What about the Christians, Yazidi's and Jews living in the ME. The ones who are being targeted by Isis and other groups. Do you see them committing acts of terror?

Over a long enough arc, and shifting balances of power, international influences, population growth and desperation? Yes, because ya know, they kind of did for 200-400 years.

I'm going to pull my toes out of the political and religious water, I'm more interested in the larger anthropological and philosophical aspects of moral corruption and regional history.

I'll leave it at this, if the larger Islamic community and faith denounced violence, spurred a reformation and purged all the monkey business about justified killings and all that, and if that really fixed the problem I'd be all for it.

I wouldn't recommend a giant hold of breath sesh if it happened.

You called bullshit when I said I was not religious, so you are spinning yet again.

I've condemned acts of terror. Plenty. You are not even reading my posts. I'm all for the destruction of Isis. Violently.

I guess all Muslims need to be held accountable for the acts of the jihadists. Tell me when you have the passion to argue all Americans should go to trial for the Iraq War.

and something that I am sure will be ignored/condemned/contested by my opponents on this thread.

My main problem is not with the history of Islam and the reasons for its' creation, or even the excuses used for its past behavior.

The problem that is hurtling our civilization towards destruction is that MOST of the western world and its' leaders have completely given up any form of criticism that might bring about the dialogue and put pressure on addressing this.

Instead, we have people refusing to use the term "Islam" in the discussion of terrorism. And they consistently tell us all religions have a bad history. Blah blah blah.

People need to start talking about the 800 lb elephant in the room.

Free speech anyone ?

Anyone ?

In comment 13019970 hassan said:

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You called bullshit when I said I was not religious, so you are spinning yet again. I've condemned acts of terror. Plenty. You are not even reading my posts. I'm all for the destruction of Isis. Violently. I guess all Muslims need to be held accountable for the acts of the jihadists. Tell me when you have the passion to argue all Americans should go to trial for the Iraq War.

No one is saying all Muslims should be held responsible for the actions of ISIS. But plenty of Americans were (at least with the benefit of hindsight) strongly opposed to the war in Iraq. But in the last week alone there have been three mass fatality atrocities and there has been one common denominator in all three.

In comment 13019970 hassan said:

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You called bullshit when I said I was not religious, so you are spinning yet again. I've condemned acts of terror. Plenty. You are not even reading my posts. I'm all for the destruction of Isis. Violently. I guess all Muslims need to be held accountable for the acts of the jihadists. Tell me when you have the passion to argue all Americans should go to trial for the Iraq War.

Wrong, as usual. I called "bullshit" on your claiming to be agnostic. I stand by it, given your blind defense of the ideas that cause hatred and terrorism in the world.

Now answer some of my questions or stop making a fool of yourself.

In comment 13019967 christian said:

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In comment 13019952 buford said: Quote: In comment 13019948 christian said: Quote: You don't think if large swaths of the Judaeo/Christian world were under the same political and social conditions as much of the Muslim world, there wouldn't be active factions resorting to desperation, manipulation, violence and deprecated tenants of their religion? There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror. There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity. What about the Christians, Yazidi's and Jews living in the ME. The ones who are being targeted by Isis and other groups. Do you see them committing acts of terror? Over a long enough arc, and shifting balances of power, international influences, population growth and desperation? Yes, because ya know, they kind of did for 200-400 years. I'm going to pull my toes out of the political and religious water, I'm more interested in the larger anthropological and philosophical aspects of moral corruption and regional history. I'll leave it at this, if the larger Islamic community and faith denounced violence, spurred a reformation and purged all the monkey business about justified killings and all that, and if that really fixed the problem I'd be all for it. I wouldn't recommend a giant hold of breath sesh if it happened.

Christian - But that is exactly is what has happened in other religions and ideologies due to human enlightenment.

What makes Islam any different in that sense ? It's just a different set of much more violent religious fantasies and superstitions.

that there is a huge difference between:

1. Believing a cracker is the body of Christ, and taking it in Church as a religious homage. Or even NOT believing it, but doing it because the ideas of Christ and his teachings help make one feel and act as a more loving and tolerant human being. It's still a fantasy, but it doesn't harm anyone directly anymore.

AND

2. Believing that Mohammed's teachings and the word of God he was delivered through the angel Gabriel grant Muslims the right to vilify and murder non-Muslims. Kill people for homosexuality, drawing cartoons (blasphemy), stoning raped women for "adultery", etc, etc. ?

This is long past utility.

This is pathetic of you.

Not religious=agnostic in my previous post.

I've answered your question on Islamic theology. I'm sure not to your liking. You have not bothered to remotely address any of mine.

Understood I'm feeding the troll here guilty as charged.

In comment 13019846 muhajir said:

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Bluelou, ratio of deaths is exponentially higher then 10:1 and in addition to specific death totals, theres palestinians maimed and disfigured by Israeli bombings and raids. That and the overall squalor and humiliation of daily life in the occupied territories so its not just about the death totals.

With all due respect muhajir you are confusing the refugee camps perhaps with the occupied territory in general. Because I know what an awful lot of the villages and countryside in the occupied territory looks like and it's not the fetid squalor it's made out to be. You can't possibly know 1% of what I know about this because I lived there and still work there regularly. How many times do I need to repeat that?

Now I have never been to a refugee camp so can't comment, and I don't believe the right wing Jewish press sources I have that post photos of lavish homes with swimming pools in the camps.

But there are in fact plenty of lavsh homes in numerous normal Arab villages in the West Bank.

And whose fault is it that there is so much poverty there? You know how Fooking poor Israel was in 1950?

3 plus generations have passed since the initial war of independence for Israel (that BTW the Arab states started because they didn't accept a 2 state solution, for the damn 100th time.) Israel has built itself into an amazing little country, Palestine, the would be Palestine, is a Fooking disaster. It truly is not Israel's fault. There is a reason Palestine can't raise capital to invest like Israel can an does...

I mentioned I am friends with Christian Arabs who live.and work in the West Bank, right? The Khourys:

Quote:

Taybeh Brewing Company is a family owned business established in 1994 following the Oslo Peace Agreement (1993) when David Khoury and Nadim Khoury were inspired by their late father, Canaan David Khoury (1926-2002) to return to their home village of Taybeh after spending more than twenty years in the United States and establish the first micro brewery in the Middle East.

Well they invested and are probably only 10-20% of the size the COULD BE if Arafat had agreed to peace in 2000-2001, because without a country of their own to exist in, and with an obvious aversion to labeling their beer as "produced in Israel" they are fucked by TTB laws in the states that won't allow their beer to be imported.

That's losing their biggest single market, one they were counting on when they started after the signing of the Oslo accords.

As an aside they used to sell beer through their own small kiosk in Gaza. Yoi think Hamas asked them to shut it down or convert it into a fresh juice stand? Not exactly. Hamas burned it down to the ground.

So don't blame Israel for the Palestinian's poverty. That's on them and their leaders who steal like the 40 thieves.

In comment 13019979 Bill2 said:

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This is long past utility.

Bill - That is your opinion. Many people have expressed support.

In comment 13019980 hassan said:

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This is pathetic of you. Not religious=agnostic in my previous post. I've answered your question on Islamic theology. I'm sure not to your liking. You have not bothered to remotely address any of mine.

Hahhhh. Do you actually believe the words you type ? I really doubt it. You seem to be much too intelligent to swallow what you are shoveling.

In comment 13019948 christian said:

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You don't think if large swaths of the Judaeo/Christian world were under the same political and social conditions as much of the Muslim world, there wouldn't be active factions resorting to desperation, manipulation, violence and deprecated tenants of their religion? Explain central and South America to me? There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror. There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity.

Yes it is my opinion.

One of them

They are benefitting more directly with trade with US. They have met more Americans.

Many are second world countries as opposed to third or 4th world status.

There are also no madrassas with hate filled preachers either. And they don't have the restrictive cultures of Islam. It's a lie to pretend otherwise.

In comment 13019995 BlueLou said:

Quote:

In comment 13019948 christian said: Quote: You don't think if large swaths of the Judaeo/Christian world were under the same political and social conditions as much of the Muslim world, there wouldn't be active factions resorting to desperation, manipulation, violence and deprecated tenants of their religion? Explain central and South America to me? There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror. There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity.

You might want to read up on Latin American history over the 20th century and focus in on Mexico current-day if you don't think social and economic pressures don't lead to violence.

This is beyond idiotic and is further evidence you're a moron.


"Instead, we have people refusing to use the term "Islam" in the discussion of terrorism"

More concerning is that people on this thread cherry picked some of his points. Fairly sad indictment of them.

Fareed zakaria did a good piece on this topic and was very fair. Said Islamic world has a combination of political, ideological, economic and social factors contributing to their actions.

But not surprisingly, Latin America has become a growing recruitment ground for Isis. Because of the economic malaise.

OK...I'm deleting this in a few minutes everyone.

Again, the subject matter has made some uncomfortable.

Consider who went over the top with crass smears and trolling as opposed to respectful civil discourse as good candidates for a ban. Might be out of bounds to suggest but so be it.

In comment 13020021 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 13019995 BlueLou said: Quote: In comment 13019948 christian said: Quote: You don't think if large swaths of the Judaeo/Christian world were under the same political and social conditions as much of the Muslim world, there wouldn't be active factions resorting to desperation, manipulation, violence and deprecated tenants of their religion? Explain central and South America to me? There's not a lot mystery in why Western Africa, Somalia, rural Philippines, Bangladesh, rural India, Syria, Iraq, disputed areas in rural Pakistan, rural Afghanistan etc. create and export terror. There's a reason America, Kuwait and the UAE don't with the same intensity. You might want to read up on Latin American history over the 20th century and focus in on Mexico current-day if you don't think social and economic pressures don't lead to violence.

Is it me? Or do virtually all the links to real info come from one side, and not the pro Islam or namby pamby liberals with the socio-economic roots arguments.

Hey you got something show me because I googled Mexico Suicide Bomb and the first link that connected Mexico to suicide bombs was Islamist driven Nigerians blowing up 20+ people who were watching a football match involving Mexico. Apparently these Islamists thought Mexico was laying down so as not to cover the spread...



Maybe


South and Central America have plenty of economic crime, not hate crime and suicide bombers yo yo.

In comment 13020019 hassan said:

Quote:

They are benefitting more directly with trade with US. They have met more Americans. Many are second world countries as opposed to third or 4th world status. There are also no madrassas with hate filled preachers either. And they don't have the restrictive cultures of Islam. It's a lie to pretend otherwise.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't many gulf states endowed with the most precious resource of the last two centuries?

Did those nation states not benefit from trade to the tune of trillions of petrol dollars?

Haven't the Saudis walked lock step with every administration since Bush I? How has that benefitted the average Saudi?

South America is no less religious than countries where by Islam is the dominant belief system; and, Christianty is just as likely to be restrictive, exclusive, misogynistic and hated filled.

The fundamental difference is rooted how static Islam has remained. As loathe as I am to make this distinction, Christianity has grown up. Not much, but some. And while Christianity undoubtedly provides the foundation for how many lead their lives, is isn't the basis of law, government, economics, etc.

Apostate Christians aren't killed on the street of Rio. Argentianian women accused of adultery aren't beaten to death. Non Christians in Chile aren't blown up at the market.


The implication that Arabs/Muslims have somehow been dealt a bad hand due to inadequate trade opportunities or proximity to the US is intellectually dishonest.
And while, imho, both philosophies are a dead end of reason, to suggest they're moral equivalents is patently false. Lastly, the continued deflection and rationalizations of these acts of violence by people who are ostensibly moderates, strikes me as more dangerous than the acts themselves.

Yes the gulf states have benefitted enormously. And a few families to your point have become rich. The people likely to be radicalized from these nations to act out are likely the equivalent of slave labor there. There are still massive socioeconomic factors there...Yes, there are the engineers supportive of Isis that moved from London to Syria to fight but it's the rare case.

Hardly intellectually dishonest to suggest socioeconomic issue are part of the challenge.

Where is the deflection? There may be a portion that still blames all this action in a conspiracy but plenty have denounced terror.

You will notice I added the lack of a madrassas is a reason this is not happening In Central America. It's a contributing factor.