NFT: 2nd terrorist attack in Occupied west bank area near Hebron

as a non-Jew who basically only had a precursory knowledge of the history of Israel and the surrounding Arabic lands, I really had my eyes opened when I visited Israel.

You see the Palestinians acting like animals, spitting at people, openly shouting in the streets, trying to start provocations, and at least on the surface, the Israeli's try to do their best to tolerate it.

Now granted, my experiences are based off just a brief visit to the country, but I was left with a lasting impression of how the perception we have been often fed by the Media is in stark contract to my experiences.

When I returned home, I tried to learn as much about the history as possible, and the systematic attempts to eradicate Israel and the amount of support that venture gets is mind-boggling to me. You pretty much have an entire region who either actively or passively supports eliminating a people.

so the attitude is fuck it, do what we need to in order to survive and deal with the criticism. Unfortunately they need us and the propanganda war against them here is gaining yearly.

You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people.

The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.)

And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after.

The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan
(80 post thread in 3....2...1...)

Israel will always be in a state of war. The Arabs have no incentive to back down. The only thing that can really change things is for the Arab world as a whole to go through some kind of reformation process but you know the saying about relying on the kindness of strangers.

The few remaining Jews in Europe continue to move to Israel. I wonder if the flow should start going the other way (and/or to the U.S.).

In comment 13017251 muhajir said:

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You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

since October 2015 or before it?

As a non religious Jew who originally moved to Israel for a work opportunity primarily to make good Kosher wine, and secondarily for the good odds that I'd meet a nice Jewish gal to hook up with at age 40+ and make good on a death bed promise to my mom that I would at least consider trying to find a Jewish "girl" to marry...

continue to live in absolute squalor with absolutely zero hope for a better future and no ability to control their own destiny they are going to act out like this.

Now that certainly does not make it right but I think it's at least important to try to understand why people act as they do. If your answer is that they are simply animals who don't know any better that's a pretty weak response.

or you picked the wrong word ("girl") to put quotations around.

In comment 13017251 muhajir said:

Quote:

You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...)

Gaza is besieged? Maybe because the Palestinian people elected a genocidal terrorist group to lead them when they were left to their own devices after Israel kicked its own citizens out of their homes.

Maybe you've never heard of the 1929 Hebron Massacre when Arabs went house to house and slaughtered and raped innocent Jews. Was that because the Israeli government was oppressing them? Or was that 20 years before there was an Israeli government?

You don't deserve to be treated as equals if you celebrate murderers of children. You don't get sympathy for being 'oppressed' if you teach your children from kindergarten that martyrdom is the highest honor and put on plays where they go around stabbing Jews (google that one).

You are the definition of ignorant. Not only do you have no sense of history but you can't even contextualize current events. One side murders children in their beds and is called a hero. The other brings its criminals to justice.

Then conflict would have been resolved along time ago.....no one is squeaky clean.

I actually view Palestine more a pawn....in the greater Muslin/Jewish conflict.

as the surrounding Muslim countries threaten Isreal....Isreal creates buffer zones for protection..... encroaching into other countries.

You would think we are discussing vast lands....
I have been always amazed by the scope....as Isreal is only the size of NJ.

Really kind of amazing!!!!!

Goes back to why I really reject all religions....I have Christian values.....but religion has truly warped people perspective.

of what is going on over there. As the farthest thing ever from an expert, I will say the several Vice segments I watched on the settlements were fairly persuasive. (not looking to get into a debate on how Vice edits their pieces, they clearly have an agenda but IMO any semi intelligent individual should be able to cut through that and take what they need to).

Not to say that numerous actions by the Palestines arent reprehensible, but simply focusing on the settlements - my main question is why is there such a fixation on them when it seems like this would be a relatively easy issue to compromise on and possibly ease some tensions. The actions shown in those documents didnt make Isreal seem sympathetic in that regard. I am sure there are reasons, I candidly am just ignorant.

...on the Arab side, the refusal by several Arab nations many decades ago to absorb so-called "Palestinians" was a farce and a way to keep a sharp prod into Israel's side...

...and on Israel's side, the settlements and a turning away from the secular state that was originally birthed in 1949 hasn't exactly helped matters.

What a mess.

muhajir, I did educate myself on the situation when I returned, and the more I read and hear, the more I see a systematic attempt to exterminate Israel from the region. Outward hatred of the country. Not a subjective feeling, but a blatant hate of an entire country by pretty much the vast majority of Arabic lands in the vicinity.

Lou, I visited last year. Had some interesting experiences - I wrote a post about how much I loved visiting the country, especially Tel Aviv, and I talked about how great the food, especially the hummus was.

For me, it was a cultural awakening and gave me an appreciation for what the Israelis have to endure from nearly anyone around them.

and it bothers me the provocation that goes on with the settlements. Then again, Israel has given a lot of land back that it won in wars. Plus, even if Israel were to leave the settlements and give it to the Palestinians, it will never be enough.

Palestinians elected a Islamic fundamental terrorist organization as its leadership. They siphon funds used for infrastructure and utilities and instead line their pockets for mansions for the leaders and build tunnels to sneak into Israel to commit acts of violence.

Palestinian leadership brainwashes children with Sesame Street like programs on committing jihad and to kill the Jews. Hamas calls to wipe Israel and Jews off the map. They still teach and promote the blood libel myth.

Again, there are things that Israel does that I'm not proud of, though I think they show more restraint than most nations under constant attack.

I look around the world and I see incident after incident where radical terrorists have perverted Islam as a means to commit random acts of violence against the West and non-Muslims. So when I see Hamas make their threats and declarations against Israel, I cannot buy for one second that they are merely reacting to Israeli policies when they laud, sanction, promote,and compensate those who commit terrorist acts against the Israeli people.

try to name any World Leader who has called for the destruction of a country. Even enemies like North Korea have angered people, but nobody says they will go there and destroy the country. Yet, the number of Arabic leaders who have publicly said that about israel is numerous.

If I've been educated incorrectly, perhaps you could point me to where the Ant-Semitism is denounced in the Arabic culture. Where hatred of Israel isn't either overtly or tacitly approved?

Keep in mind, I'm not Jewish, so I have no bias in the matter.

Supporting a 2 state solution and wishing only for long term Peace and harmony in the region. And voted for Ehud Barak's party which was supported by an overwhelming mandate of the broader Israeli populace to finish up the business started by Rabin and Arafat st the Oslo accords.

And Barak went to camp David to meet Arafat. And Arafat said "fuck you" and declared war by Intifada.

In fact I could even underdtand the FU.

If Arafat felt the deal offered wasn't fair, if he felt the Palestinians were being railroaded into concessions that were too severe... I could live with that thought and that stubbornness.

But how to get what he wanted as fair and just? The historic models have been well laid out during the past century to achieve desired results and Israels' populace was ready to bend at that moment. You could feel it.

Non violent protests. Peacefull marches. Bloock highways non violently. Lay down in the streets. Fast...

But Arafat chose war.

What did that say? What was his and the Palestinians' true objective?

The goal remains, as it was from Israel's first war of independence when there was no such "state" as Palestine or even anything like a unified group one would call Palestinians but rather an overwhelming coalition of Arab states on all sides that strove to drive the UN mandated Jewish people of the territory of Israel into the sea or back from whence most of them came.

Every bit of history bears this out. The Oslo accords, from the Palestinian side, was a charade. A waiting game that Arafat hoped to parlay eventually as millions upon millions of "refugees" seeking a justifiable return to their "homeland."

To say that I was saddened and disillusioned by this realization is an understatement.

In comment 13017380 BlueLou said:

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Supporting a 2 state solution and wishing only for long term Peace and harmony in the region. And voted for Ehud Barak's party which was supported by an overwhelming mandate of the broader Israeli populace to finish up the business started by Rabin and Arafat st the Oslo accords. And Barak went to camp David to meet Arafat. And Arafat said "fuck you" and declared war by Intifada. In fact I could even underdtand the FU. If Arafat felt the deal offered wasn't fair, if he felt the Palestinians were being railroaded into concessions that were too severe... I could live with that thought and that stubbornness. But how to get what he wanted as fair and just? The historic models have been well laid out during the past century to achieve desired results and Israels' populace was ready to bend at that moment. You could feel it. Non violent protests. Peacefull marches. Bloock highways non violently. Lay down in the streets. Fast... But Arafat chose war. What did that say? What was his and the Palestinians' true objective?

this is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever read. What was offered to Arafat was a South African style bantusysnce. Essentially a non contiguous state that would be split up into multiple cantons.

The reality of the matter is simple. Israel is following a policy of expansion. When one reads internal Israeli documents they make clear that fears over security don't exist but rather they are seeking a policy of expansion. Israeli behavior of the occupied territories is a war crime as outlined by the 4 Th Geneva convention. This convention was initiated to criminalize the conduct of NAZI Germany's during the Second World War. As a result of their bull dozing Palestinian homes and annexing Palesinisn territory radical groups have developed that use terrorist actions to fight s political war. In Gaza Israel have essentially surrounded and enclosed the area turning it into a massive ghetto which is an act of war under Internstional law. Israel is an occupying power and a violent criminal rogue state that is universally condemned by the entire world routinely outside of the United States. All in votes are typically 155 to 2 that they terminate their occupation and settlement expansion.

In fact Israel is one of the most secure countries on earth. It is backed and funded by the us the worlds sole super power. Saudi Arabia, Egypt Jordan turkey etc etc etc are all allies of the United States and as such are not enemies to Israel. Even Irans animosity amounts to little more then rhetoric to cover up the failures of the Iranian regime. Israel is considered to be the fourth strongest military on earth with a huge stock pile of nuclear weapons that are in violation of the nuclear nom proliferation treaty. Israel is the aggressor and the blowback is Palestinian terror.

Their are also extremist Israeli terrorists who are psychotic Orthodox Jews who rampage in the West Bank. There are no doubt psychotic Palestinian terrorists. But the racism towards Jews is equaled by Jewish racism towards Palestinians. It is common place during war for both sides to dehumanized the other. Hence our racist names for the Japanese and Vietnamese and Germans etc etc.

Take a look at what the ignorant fat man wrote about them being animals. Imagine someone said that about Jews? That person would rightfully be criticized.

The Jewish and Palestinian people are great. Their leaders are vile monsters. But the ignorance about the conflict in this country is pathetic and these posts are a perfect illustration.

In comment 13017445 BlueLou said:

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The goal remains, as it was from Israel's first war of independence when there was no such "state" as Palestine or even anything like a unified group one would call Palestinians but rather an overwhelming coalition of Arab states on all sides that strove to drive the UN mandated Jewish people of the territory of Israel into the sea or back from whence most of them came. Every bit of history bears this out. The Oslo accords, from the Palestinian side, was a charade. A waiting game that Arafat hoped to parlay eventually as millions upon millions of "refugees" seeking a justifiable return to their "homeland." To say that I was saddened and disillusioned by this realization is an understatement.

the Palestinians and international community have called for 40 years hundreds of times for Israel to accept a two state solution. The entire intl community backs this including the majority of the Anericdn people. Each time the Israelis decline because as they state quite openly they seek expansion not peace which is why they have annexed Palestinian territory for said 40 years. You have no clue what your saying and it's embarrassing.

In comment 13017251 muhajir said:

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You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...)

Thank you, Muhaiir, for engaging this discussion with intelligence, historical perspective and reality-based analysis. I've been to Israel, Gaza, West Bank, refugee camps, seen demolished homes and ancient palestinian olive tree farms ruined by Israeli occupiers (the term "settler" would be laughable if not so offensive), and been tear-gassed with hundreds of nonviolent Palestinian people trying to defend their lives and property. (And yes, I've also visited Israeli Jewish homes in places like Sderot, where crudely made missiles launched by Palestinian militants have wreaked violence and property damage on a much, much smaller scale). And frankly, I don't have the psychic energy to fully participate in these threads that are so full of propaganda, misinformation and ignorance. So, again, I thank you for not letting these Zionist fantasies go unchallenged.

are you that desperate to post on BBI that you make a new dupe every time you get banned despite no one wanting you around?

don't you have something better to do that create a million dupes?

if this is Dustbin.

In comment 13017279 Tesla said:

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continue to live in absolute squalor with absolutely zero hope for a better future and no ability to control their own destiny they are going to act out like this. Now that certainly does not make it right but I think it's at least important to try to understand why people act as they do. If your answer is that they are simply animals who don't know any better that's a pretty weak response.

This argument is one without any basis whatsoever. Because if a "better standard of living" meant jack shit to the forces driving the Palestinian agenda peace with Israel would be a top priority on their list. Rather than eradication.

It's an oh so Western oh so completely ignorant view I really won't waste time addressing it further
Plenty of Palestinians in fact realize this and would just as soon live under the state of Israel's rule and laws rather than under the PA or Hamas. But you might imagine that outside of private conversations those with this opinion remain quiet for the most part. They have no voice. There is no real freedom of expression there, especially under Hamas's rule.

a list of Arabic leaders who have denounced actions against Israel or who support Israel should be able to easily be compiled, no?

Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift.

Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway.

I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe.

In comment 13017477 Mark C said:

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In comment 13017251 muhajir said: Quote: You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people. The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.) And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after. The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan (80 post thread in 3....2...1...) Thank you, Muhaiir, for engaging this discussion with intelligence, historical perspective and reality-based analysis. I've been to Israel, Gaza, West Bank, refugee camps, seen demolished homes and ancient palestinian olive tree farms ruined by Israeli occupiers (the term "settler" would be laughable if not so offensive), and been tear-gassed with hundreds of nonviolent Palestinian people trying to defend their lives and property. (And yes, I've also visited Israeli Jewish homes in places like Sderot, where crudely made missiles launched by Palestinian militants have wreaked violence and property damage on a much, much smaller scale). And frankly, I don't have the psychic energy to fully participate in these threads that are so full of propaganda, misinformation and ignorance. So, again, I thank you for not letting these Zionist fantasies go unchallenged.

Damn Zionist Jews making a fuss at out their children being stabbed in their beds and rocket aimed a their schools. They are damned evil and nazi like. After that stabbing. we have another street to name after a worthy mature.

Martyr.

I also support Israel on many issues. I'm curious what sources you used to educate yourself on the history. It was definitely one sided

In comment 13017279 Tesla said:

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continue to live in absolute squalor with absolutely zero hope for a better future and no ability to control their own destiny they are going to act out like this. Now that certainly does not make it right but I think it's at least important to try to understand why people act as they do. If your answer is that they are simply animals who don't know any better that's a pretty weak response.

Maybe they can all go and live with Arafat's wife in Paris. Just think how many could live well on the money he stole.

In comment 13017514 RB^2 said:

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Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift. Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway. I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe.

Do a little reading about what happened to some of the Jews in Europe postwar.

In comment 13017489 BlueLou said:

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In comment 13017279 Tesla said: Quote: continue to live in absolute squalor with absolutely zero hope for a better future and no ability to control their own destiny they are going to act out like this. Now that certainly does not make it right but I think it's at least important to try to understand why people act as they do. If your answer is that they are simply animals who don't know any better that's a pretty weak response. This argument is one without any basis whatsoever. Because if a "better standard of living" meant jack shit to the forces driving the Palestinian agenda peace with Israel would be a top priority on their list. Rather than eradication. It's an oh so Western oh so completely ignorant view I really won't waste time addressing it further Plenty of Palestinians in fact realize this and would just as soon live under the state of Israel's rule and laws rather than under the PA or Hamas. But you might imagine that outside of private conversations those with this opinion remain quiet for the most part. They have no voice. There is no real freedom of expression there, especially under Hamas's rule.

Lou, you are so hopelessly biased here - and understandably so - that there is not attempt to discuss this rationally with you.

there also used to be Jews all over the Middle East in Iraq, Iran, North Africa, and the Arab world. And they were expelled and left under duress after living there for thousands of years. Many left for Israel because of the attacks against them in their native lands.

behind the hatred

Quote:

FatMan AP in Halfmoon : 12:25 pm : link : reply I also support Israel on many issues. I'm curious what sources you used to educate yourself on the history. It was definitely one sided

How is something one-sided when a lot of sources show comments made by Arabic leaders to eliminate Israel and that there isn't widespread condemnation (or even narrowspread if that's a word) from the Arabic world.

Why does Israel have rigid security on many levels? Because there is an entire region who would like nothing more than to see them no longer exist. This isn't conjecture.

You look at all of the reasons given by the Arabic nations to "justify" their attitudes towards Israel and they try to hinge it on Palestine or Isreal existence to begin with. Someone above talked about Israel wanting to expand. Expand where? A couple more hundred square miles? An expanionist regime should be shooting to expand into several other lands. That isn't Israel's wish.

This boils down mainly to a hatred of Jewish doctrine and the belief they don't belong in the region. and the response is to overwhelmingly take an attitude of hatred and openly threaten to eliminate them.

I'd be curious to understand how one could look at the history of that region and feel it isn't that way.

And keep in mind, I'm not saying Israel bears no scrutiny. I'm saying that no matter how you look at the Middle East, there is one constant - a bunch of Arabic nations trying to have another one eliminated. It isn't the other way around.

In comment 13017530 Big Al said:

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In comment 13017514 RB^2 said: Quote: Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift. Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway. I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe. Do a little reading about what happened to some of the Jews in Europe postwar.

I know the East was bad but I was talking about the West that was pretty much under U.S. domination and the U.S. has a pretty good track record (relatively speaking) of protecting Jews.
Also, I know what happened to many of them in Palestine/Israel after the war.
Again, this isn't meant to be a perfect solution. It's just a discussion point.
One thing I believe in is that Jews should return to Europe. I think it would benefit both. It would certainly benefit Poland, where I'm from.

Quote:

and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.)

Except the point about "heavily fortified" if by that you mean literally fortress like. I have lived in an old and well established settlement called Beit El. There's a very heavy military presence there, but nothing more than cyclone fencing around the entire village and even that in fact is not contiguous. The military presence in the village and even along the village perimeter is hardly noticeable. And I took long walks along this perimeter regularly.
By foot over the hilly countryside any Palestinian could get into the village at anytime. Only once I was approached by Israeli soldiers with drawn weapons who told me to move away from the perimeter they were anticipating something bad.

Many male settlers arm themselves with legal handguns. Most I'd wager. But never the women or kids. And you'd be shocked at the numbers of settlers and Palestinians too who, unarmed, rely on hitch hiking to get around. They have unofficial separate areas to stand so that Palestinians pick up Palestinians and Jews pick up Jews.

But in East Jerusalem they can get mixed up and very close to one another. I mistakenly picked up 3 young Palestinan men in East Jerusalem and their slight surprise should have tipped me off, but they spoke English well enough and I took them from JLM to the entrance of Hizme, where they were headed.

I wouldn't do that now during the Intifada...

No one is denying that

In comment 13017514 RB^2 said:

Quote:

Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift. Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway. I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe.

If you go a little farther back it gets even more complicated. Near the end of the Ottoman Empire (say 1900 - 1919) there were communities of Christians, Jews and Arabs (obviously Muslims) all living in what was Greater Palestine. Yes, there was Zionist immigration from Europe, but there was a Jewish community there to migrate to. ALL were made promises by BOTH sides during WWI. The US didn't make promises to specific groups, but Point 12 of Wilson's 14 Points promised "autonomous development" to all the populations in the non-Turkey portions of the dissolving Ottoman Empire. So, in essence, all were promised a homeland.

In comment 13017583 AP in Halfmoon said:

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No one is denying that

absolutely and they are our allies. However the Jewish leaders are war criminals find scum as well. There is no symmetry in this situation. They are the occupying power and thus cause of their annexation war criminals under the Geneva conventions.

such a sad idiot.

Did your Dad finally get caught bilking the elderly because one of them was Jewish and ratted him out?

Is biased and that is fine...everyone has biases. Not going to even touch the Israel Palestine debate.

Blue Lou does himself no favors with the happy Ramadan comment however and his other comments on the whole of Islam. Really comes across as a bigot. And this is coming from a non religious person of Islamic heritage who'd be inclined to try his wine otherwise.....

when you see what's happening in Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc. Bottom line is that if the jews werent there the Palestinians would be killing each other because of who belonged to which sect of Islam. Sunni, Shiite, Jew, Christian, Buddist. Doesnt matter, they always are at war with one or the other.

being deleted?

In comment 13017566 RB^2 said:

Quote:

In comment 13017530 Big Al said: Quote: In comment 13017514 RB^2 said: Quote: Despite the numerous social pathologies that seem to exist in the Arab world, I can understand and even sympathize with their view of Israel as an occupier. The "UN mandate" for the creation of Israel happened when the UN was like 3 days old and dominated by the Allied powers. It was basically the British giving Arab lands to Jews to create their own state, as if it was theirs to give to anyone. So it makes total sense to me that they would view Israel as just another white/European colonizing power. In their minds, they've gotten rid of the Persians, Turks, British, French, Italians, Russians and they'll eventually get rid of the Israelis, too, so there's no incentive to stop fighting absent some huge internal shift. Lou, that's why I think Arafat backed out. Sure he may have wanted his own state (and of course the billions in UN/IMF/World Bank/etc. money plus cushy diplomatic status that come with it) but realized there were too many hardliners who wanted to keep fighting and he couldn't control. Just my theory anyway. I think Zionism is a false promise. I think the Jews would have been better off staying in a U.S.-dominated Europe, though admittedly, that still leaves the Jews living in/around the shitty USSR. Total hindsight, of course. But I think there's still a path back to Europe. Do a little reading about what happened to some of the Jews in Europe postwar. I know the East was badly but I was talking about the West that was pretty much under U.S. domination and the U.S. has a pretty good track record (relatively speaking) of protecting Jews. Also, I know what happened to many of them in Palestine/Israel after the war. Again, this isn't meant to be a perfect solution. It's just a discussion point. One thing I believe in is that Jews should return to Europe. I think it would benefit both. It would certainly benefit Poland, where I'm from.

My grandparents came from Poland and nearby Russia. True about Poliand where 43 Jews were killed in one ripped in 1946. Those who went west were put in refuge camps and later sent to various countries. Don't believe Western Europe was going to happen.

Riot

and Palestine?

Logistically how did you get around?

Because what you see depends very much on who takes you where?

I have wandered around the west bank as a free entity, on my own, into Christian Arab villages that are clearly marked with the red signs of being totally under PA control. I have traveled through Islamic villages with other armed men in the car on the way to visit vineyards sitting the region.

I've been doing this for years. How long where you there? How many villages did you visit?

I, too, have some experience in the Middle East. I was raised in Lebanon as a Maronite Christian and throughout the years experienced the compassion and hatred that both sides are capable of, including the Maronite community. My family lived in a village that depended upon militias for protection--often from other Maronite militias, presenting themselves as liberators of Lebanon from the Palestinians, or Hezbollah or Israel, but often little more than armies of warlords. What has always struck me is how complicated the situation is in the region.

From reading this thread it is apparent that everyone has their bias and I know that if I was an Israeli or Palestinian I, too, would be colored by experience. Yet,I find it necessary to try and distinguish the labels from the individuals. If all you know of the Arabs and the Israelis is what you read in various media outlets discussing atrocities and alleged atrocities, then you have been cheated. The people on all sides of this tragedy have suffered for too long while being tossed into an endless conflict that is always oversimplified and described in terms of good and evil. That is what makes it even more tragic.

In comment 13017632 Jeffrey said:

Quote:

I, too, have some experience in the Middle East. I was raised in Lebanon as a Maronite Christian and throughout the years experienced the compassion and hatred that both sides are capable of, including the Maronite community. My family lived in a village that depended upon militias for protection--often from other Maronite militias, presenting themselves as liberators of Lebanon from the Palestinians, or Hezbollah or Israel, but often little more than armies of warlords. What has always struck me is how complicated the situation is in the region. From reading this thread it is apparent that everyone has their bias and I know that if I was an Israeli or Palestinian I, too, would be colored by experience. Yet,I find it necessary to try and distinguish the labels from the individuals. If all you know of the Arabs and the Israelis is what you read in various media outlets discussing atrocities and alleged atrocities, then you have been cheated. The people on all sides of this tragedy have suffered for too long while being tossed into an endless conflict that is always oversimplified and described in terms of good and evil. That is what makes it even more tragic.

Well played, Sir!

Your posts are as productive as bufords. It's slightly more complicated than that.

even if I disagree. And I apologize for the snarky and sarcastic happy Ramadan remark. That was uncalled for. The murder of the girl in her bed two days ago really set me off. I have a daughter exactly her age and am not around now to protect her, not that I am armed or even have a vestige of my former fighting ability. But I can still shout pretty loud and wake up our dog who's pretty irritable about strangers. Once she wakes up...


Big Al no doubt there were heavy pressures on Arafat at Camp David not to sign a deal, any deal.

But I think the war commencing afterwards was very much at his provocation. Some have written that it got way out of his control, and was the beginning of the end for him, politically.