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An Israeli man has been killed and his wife and two children wounded after their car was fired on in the occupied West Bank, the military says. It happened near the Jewish settlement of Otniel. The man was killed when the car overturned after the attack. Israeli forces are searching for a Palestinian gunman. It is the second fatal attack on an Israeli in the West Bank in two days. On Thursday a 13-year-old girl was killed in her bedroom by a Palestinian. Thirty-five Israelis have now been killed in a wave of knife, gun and car-ramming attacks since October. More than 200 Palestinians - mostly attackers, Israel says - have also been killed in that period. The assailants who have been killed have been shot either by their victims or by security forces as they carried out attacks. Some attackers have been arrested. Palestinian shot dead The victims of Friday's attack were members of the same family. The driver was a father, said to be in his 40s; his wife and two children were taken to hospital for treatment. The shooting happened on Route 60, about nine miles (15km) south of the settlement of Kiryat Arba, where a day earlier teenager Hallel Yaffa Ariel was stabbed to death as she slept. |
Big Al no doubt there were heavy pressures on Arafat at Camp David not to sign a deal, any deal.
But I think the war commencing afterwards was very much at his provocation. Some have written that it got way out of his control, and was the beginning of the end for him, politically.
Similarly, despite centuries of discrimination and bigotry capped off with the Holocaust, European Jews' home was Europe. Despite the centuries of discrimination, they still thrived in Europe, made scientific discoveries, formed businesses, built fortunes, created masterpieces of art and generally advanced society. If the Jews had stayed, I think a similar civil rights movement would have happened in Europe.
Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS.
Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel.
But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews.
Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free.
Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.'
The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!!
Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'
Similarly, despite centuries of discrimination and bigotry capped off with the Holocaust, European Jews' home was Europe. Despite the centuries of discrimination, they still thrived in Europe, made scientific discoveries, formed businesses, built fortunes, created masterpieces of art and generally advanced society. If the Jews had stayed, I think a similar civil rights movement would have happened in Europe.
But what about the Jewish community that already existed in Palestine? Even leaving Post-WWII immigration out of it, shouldn't have there been an Israel created out of a portion of Ottoman Palestine?
European antisemitism is at the highest level since WW2. It's a been widely discussed subject for the past few years. Many Jews in France fear for their safety and have been leaving the country as a result.
My grandfather is a Holocaust survivor and he would rather die than go back to Europe.
Electricity is turned off; pay your bill instead of embezzelling the money. Better yet build your own electric plant instead of tunnels you losers.
Who is occupying what? Are we occupying the native peoples land here in the USa? Israel is the big bad bully?
The biggest enemy of the Arabs are themselves. They can't get along with their neighbors and they live in a caste system witht he haves and the mostly nots.
Load all the Arab countries with nuclear weapons and they would wipe themselves off the earth after first hitting Israel
Big Al no doubt there were heavy pressures on Arafat at Camp David not to sign a deal, any deal.
But I think the war commencing afterwards was very much at his provocation. Some have written that it got way out of his control, and was the beginning of the end for him, politically.
No worries bluelou, and yes i always enjoy chatting with you too. I probably would have had a stronger response if it wasn't you who wrote that but your always a stand up guy on here and i respect you.
As for the girl, for sure thats terrible and heart breaking.
My argument is about the big picture though. There are numerous terrible stories on both sides. It was a summer or two ago ago when 3 Israeli settlers burned 16 yr old Mohammed Abu Khdeir alive (forensic evidence suggested he was alive when set ablaze) .
But theres a big picture to all of this which is what needs to be addressed in order for the other incidents to end.
Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS.
Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel.
But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews.
Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free.
Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.'
The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!!
Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'
Like I said before you are completely ignoring history. Why did 5 Arab nations simultaneously attack Israel after its deceleration in 1948?
Why did they do it again in 1967?
Why did they do it again in 1973?
Yes. The Arabs want to kill the Israelis. I know that because they have been trying for the last 70 years and it hasn't exactly been a secret. Maybe you also haven't noticed that the Palestinian idea of a 'struggle' is blowing up cafes and killing children while they sleep.
Suicide bomber takes out people at a cafe in Israel - they deserve it for occupying land!
The leader of Iran talks about wiping Israel off the map - they deserve it for being in an area they shouldn't be!
If you look at history, Jews have been persecuted over and over by a host of countries and it is always spun against them. Not sure thinking that kind of rationalization is Pro-Zionist moreso that it seems backward and idiotic.
Hey, when Hitler tried to exterminate the Jews it was because they looked like rats and were money-grubbers, right? When the Russians went after the Jews it was because they were threats to Communism. Both of those persecutions were about one thing - gaining money and property from them.
Whether people believe this is a religious or political matter makes little difference. It IS an us vs. them mentality in the Arabic point of view. That same us vs. them mentality that exists in how non-Muslims should be treated. Or how women should be treated.
What I take away from looking at any of the conflicts that Jews have been part of throughout history, whether it is because they have wealth or they have land or they have a different ideology - there is a constant that pervades - hatred. Dress it up any way you want. Talk about it being purely about politics. About it being about occupation and the end result is the same - it is about hate. A hate that isn't denounced by Arabic leaders.
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even if I disagree. And I apologize for the snarky and sarcastic happy Ramadan remark. That was uncalled for. The murder of the girl in her bed two days ago really set me off. I have a daughter exactly her age and am not around now to protect her, not that I am armed or even have a vestige of my former fighting ability. But I can still shout pretty loud and wake up our dog who's pretty irritable about strangers. Once she wakes up...
Big Al no doubt there were heavy pressures on Arafat at Camp David not to sign a deal, any deal.
But I think the war commencing afterwards was very much at his provocation. Some have written that it got way out of his control, and was the beginning of the end for him, politically.
No worries bluelou, and yes i always enjoy chatting with you too. I probably would have had a stronger response if it wasn't you who wrote that but your always a stand up guy on here and i respect you.
As for the girl, for sure thats terrible and heart breaking.
My argument is about the big picture though. There are numerous terrible stories on both sides. It was a summer or two ago ago when 3 Israeli settlers burned 16 yr old Mohammed Abu Khdeir alive (forensic evidence suggested he was alive when set ablaze) .
But theres a big picture to all of this which is what needs to be addressed in order for the other incidents to end.
"On 30 November 2015 the two minors involved were found guilty of Khdeirs' murder, and were respectively sentenced to life and 21 years imprisonment on 4 February. On May 3, 2016, Ben David was sentenced to life in prison and an additional 20 years." Similar killings of Israelis are treated as martyrs and streets named after them.
European antisemitism is at the highest level since WW2. It's a been widely discussed subject for the past few years. Many Jews in France fear for their safety and have been leaving the country as a result.
My grandfather is a Holocaust survivor and he would rather die than go back to Europe.
Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. I'll be the first to tell you Europe has major problems but are people arguing that the MIDDLE EAST is a better alternative? Maybe Europe is indifferent to Jewish culture (it's increasingly indifferent to Christianity, too) but at least it's not overtly hostile to it, at least not anymore.
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Maybe Jews don't WANT to go back to Europe. The Jewish people have been persecuted for the last 2000 years and they finally have a state where they can control their own destiny. The whole point of a Jewish state is that Jews don't have to live Europe or elsewhere and be governed by leaders who are indifferent to their history and culture.
European antisemitism is at the highest level since WW2. It's a been widely discussed subject for the past few years. Many Jews in France fear for their safety and have been leaving the country as a result.
My grandfather is a Holocaust survivor and he would rather die than go back to Europe.
Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. I'll be the first to tell you Europe has major problems but are people arguing that the MIDDLE EAST is a better alternative? Maybe Europe is indifferent to Jewish culture (it's increasingly indifferent to Christianity, too) but at least it's not overtly hostile to it, at least not anymore.
Link - ( New Window )
I think the people who make the move know exactly what they are doing as far as "from the frying pan into the fire" goes and it's silly for you (RB^2) to think you know better. A lot of those who have left France, so I have heard, have done so because of where they see France headed over the NEXT 10-20 years. As much as what it is like right now. But it's been a good wave of immigration. Go to a Kosher wine festival in Israel and you will hear spoken about equal parts Hebrew, English, and French in clusters here and there.
A female terrorist approached a guard post near one of the entrances to the Tomb of the Patriarchs (Maarat Hamachpela), in Hebron. The terrorist pulled out a knife and tried to stab a Border Policeman.
The Border Policeman managed to accurately shoot and neutralize the terrorist with no harm to himself or anyone else, according to the police.
Update: The terrorist is dead.
There are reports that this terrorist is from the same family as the terrorist who murdered Hallel Ariel yesterday, according to Elior Levy, a reporter from Yediot Achronot.
And this in Netanya, nowhere near the occupied territory:
A Haredi man, 40 and a woman, 62, were injured, one seriously, one mildly, in a stabbing attack by a terrorist on Shoham Street near Sheshet Hayamim Street near the Netanya open market area. The two victims, one of them Haredi, were treated by MDA and evacuated to Laniado hospital. One woman was treated for panic attack.
Laniado hospital reported that one victim was stabbed in the back, the other in the chest.
The terrorist, a resident of the Tul Karem area in Samaria, was shot dead by an armed civilian.
Busy day. For me all the terrorists or attempted terrorists shot dead should be noted very clearly when tallying up "death tolls" attributed to the Israelis, period.
I mean I couldn't be more sick of the tally's some like to present as if murdering a child in her bed and shooting a clown in the act of stabbing someone in the back are morally equivalent. They are not
Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS.
Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel.
But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews.
Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free.
Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.'
The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!!
Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'
How are Christians and Jews making out in other Arab countries that are not at war with Israel? Have their numbers dwindled in these countries, and why?
This just makes us less humane.
There is no justification.
People who attempt to defend or rationalize these actions are as guilty as those who perform the acts.
I am sick and tired of what our world has become and I fear that there will be tipping point that will result in a backlash of catastrophic proportions.
I think that this is exactly what the the zealots desire. Instability leading to anarchy and a change at any cost.
Be vigilant and prepared.
Where is mujahir justifying Palestinian response? He's providing context for a sentiment and combatting the idea of an overly simplistic 'good guy, bad guy' narrative most people here adhere to. Plenty of blame to go around in the middle east.
However, BBI shows its typical form here. Arabs are described as 'animals', 'constantly at war with each other (never mind the fact its coming from European descendants which warred with each other mercilessly as well until about 75 years ago)', etc...from the usual suspects.
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Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc.
Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS.
Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel.
But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews.
Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free.
Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.'
The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!!
Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'
How are Christians and Jews making out in other Arab countries that are not at war with Israel? Have their numbers dwindled in these countries, and why?
Haha plenty of great vineyards around Hebron, what I consider some of the greatest vineyard land in the world for red grapes, are owned by Arab Muslims. I don't want to own their land, I just want them to replace their table grape vines with wine grapes.
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Didn't own all the good vineyards in Israel...Gotta share the wealth.
Haha plenty of great vineyards around Hebron, what I consider some of the greatest vineyard land in the world for red grapes, are owned by Arab Muslims. I don't want to own their land, I just want them to replace their table grape vines with wine grapes.
Haha glad to hear it. I find the posts you make about your world and the interactions in it very interesting.
Not that it would ever be possible or even remotely acceptable but is there any push from a noticeable group of people within Israel to basically expel everyone and consolidate the territory completely into essentially a porcupine surrounded by enemies?
Not that it would help anything, I just always wondered why it would or even could be worse than the status quo.
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In comment 13017693 muhajir said:
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Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc.
Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS.
Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel.
But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews.
Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free.
Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.'
The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!!
Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'
How are Christians and Jews making out in other Arab countries that are not at war with Israel? Have their numbers dwindled in these countries, and why?
I have not heard of any attacks on Churches or Synagogues in Saudi Arabia.
And you won't. Churches and Synagogues are prohibited in Saudi Arabia, as is public worship other than the Muslim religion.
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No one is denying that
absolutely and they are our allies. However the Jewish leaders are war criminals find scum as well. There is no symmetry in this situation. They are the occupying power and thus cause of their annexation war criminals under the Geneva conventions.
Jewish leaders are scum?
You are nothing more than an anti Semitic scum bag who I guarantee wouldn't have the balls to spew that crap to anybody's face
I don't want to hear excuses or explanations for bad behavior.
But the blame seems to be pretty subjective, no? Israel seems to get blamed for a shitload of things, even the way they handle terrorism.
I've said it before and I'll continue to beat this drum. Where is the Arabic condemnation for acts of terrorism or hatred? Where is the furor from other Arabic leaders when one speaks out about Israel? Why are Palestinians made into martyrs for their actions?
It doesn't take much to say plenty of blame to go around if one will blame Israel for killing a terrorist or for having a ridiculous amount of security.
If the prevaling thought in the Arabic world isn't that Israel should be destroyed, shouldn't there be lots of commentary denouncing the calls to take action against them? Shouldn't it be easy to find Arabic opposition to the rhetoric?
Face it, most responses that discuss the ME that lessen the burden on the Arabic states pretty much centers around trying to invalidate that Israel belongs there. That doesn't seem like a balanced share of the blame when several nations fail to recognize another one and are openly hostile towards them.
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In comment 13017844 MOOPS said:
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In comment 13017693 muhajir said:
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Work, proZionist responses revolve around 'anti-Semitism', everyone wanting to kill them, fighting to exist, 'theyre going to kill us anyway even if they become a sovereign nation.' etc.
Completely dismissing the fact that the Israeli's ARE the OCCUPIERS.
Israel isnt brutalizing the Arabs from the surrounding Arab countries and astonishingly there's no subsequent armed conflict with them (Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Lybia, Saudia Arabia, Bahrain etc) All predominantly Muslim, and Arab. Many of which engage in normal economic trade and have very good diplomatic relations with Israel.
But no fighting because contrary to what many here would like to claim, Arabs arent blood thirsty savages. Stop the nonsense about this conflict being about an inherent hate for jews.
Its not.. its an inherent hate for occupation and brutalization of a people that will never stop struggling until they're free.
Realistically speaking the Palestinians getting a sovereign nation wont happen any time soon because Israel needs to maintain control of Palestinian lands so it can continue expanding and making space for more Israeli 'settlers.'
The point though is that this is a political conflict, not a religious one, which means it can be solved!!!
Of course pro-zionists can't let that be highlighted though because that would shift blame and responsibility back to the Israelis. Israel would much rather chalk things up to 'arabs want to kill us. We're defending ourselves. The end'
How are Christians and Jews making out in other Arab countries that are not at war with Israel? Have their numbers dwindled in these countries, and why?
I have not heard of any attacks on Churches or Synagogues in Saudi Arabia.
And you won't. Churches and Synagogues are prohibited in Saudi Arabia, as is public worship other than the Muslim religion.
You are nothing more than an anti Semitic scum bag who I guarantee wouldn't have the balls to spew that crap to anybody's face
Actually he's a troll who should be ignored until the mods suspend his account for the 505h time.
Its plenty, its numerous do a simple google search. This is possibly one of the worst misconceptions out there. Its got to be one of the worst strawmen arguments doled out. Usually by ultra rightwing bigots looking to cement their selective rationale against Muslims:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-eteraz/the-myth-of-muslim-condem_b_67904.html
Ask the Coptic Christians in Egypt about the destruction of their churches and the killings.
Ask the Syriac Christians, the Armenians, the Nigerian Christians,the Pakistani Hindi and Christians, the Indonesian Christians.
Google these people and see what comes up.
By Western standards, they are animals. It is a culture that breeds intolerance and oppression. It is a culture that restricts cultural expression, stills stones people for adultery, has rigid standards that apply to both law and society.
It is a culture that openly executes Christians and other non-followers of Islam without repurcussions - kicks them right out of their homes and land and forces them to convert or die. It is a culture that makes martyrs out of terrorists, and ridiculously justifies any attack if their religious icon has been slandered or depicted.
Until the Arabic world polices themselves, there will always be conflict because they don't think there's anything wrong with that way of life at the leadership level and the vast majority of people are either too brainwashed or scared as fuck to do anything about it.
There will continue to be issues with Arabic nations because Western culture is really too damn forgiving and won't call what goes on exactly what it is - a serial violation of human rights on an epidemic scale. Because when they do, we hear some happy horseshit about Islam being a religion of peace or we hear about the poor Arabs who have to put up with the militant Jews.
We will endure threats because we won't do what the Islamic states do - cleanse the areas of non-followers. So, we will have suicide bombers have extra leeway because profiling is abhorrent. We will get threatened for asking a Muslim woman to show her face. They use the very tenets of our culture to operate a war of terrorism, and frankly there isn't much to stop them, because people who live to cause disruption and terror are not easily stopped.
And yes, that rant goes outside the bounds of the discussion with Israel, but it is a cultural acceptance of violence and exclusion that most certainly applies.
Didn't own all the good vineyards in Israel...Gotta share the wealth.
Haha plenty of great vineyards around Hebron, what I consider some of the greatest vineyard land in the world for red grapes, are owned by Arab Muslims. I don't want to own their land, I just want them to replace their table grape vines with wine grapes.
Haha glad to hear it. I find the posts you make about your world and the interactions in it very interesting.
Not that it would ever be possible or even remotely acceptable but is there any push from a noticeable group of people within Israel to basically expel everyone and consolidate the territory completely into essentially a porcupine surrounded by enemies?
Not that it would help anything, I just always wondered why it would or even could be worse than the status quo.
Well yeah that's what the settlements are all about at one level, an ultimate desire to really "occupy" the West Bank by the far right religious parties. To a lesser extent just to preserve the Jewish heritage cites in the West Bank of which there are many. I mean, at some point that was Judea, and Jewish territory long before there even was the religion of Islam.
Those who take the "promised land by G-d literally" think of Israel as naturally extending to the Jordan River, the border of Jordan.
The problem is what do you do with the Palestinians? It's not as if any other Arab country wants them, just the opposite, they won't accept them in as refugees or as potential citizens.
There are many Arab states and even more Muslim states, there is 1 Jewish state, which is the size of New Jersey. Look at a map of the middle east.
The goal of the Arabs is and has always been to destroy Israel, the 2 state solution is just something to make that wish easier.
The so called “Palestinians” already have a state, it is called Jordan. After WWI the Turks lost their empire and all of Israel, Gaza, the “West Bank” and JORDAN was part of the British Mandate for Palestine. This was the first time in history that any entity known as Palestine ever had defined borders. Palestine was a term used in the West for a region, never a country. The land has been called many things over the years. But in the middle east it was never called Palestine, if you don’t believe me look at a map of the (Muslim) Ottoman Empire and look at the names of the different provinces. You will see that the Muslim Turks did not call the land Palestine. It was actually part of 3 different provinces: Jerusalem, Beirut and Syrian provinces. This is what Arab leaders have said in the past about Palestine.
"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it." -- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi-- Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937
"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not" -- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946
King Abdullah in 1948: "Palestine and Jordan are one..."
"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." -- Ahmed Shukairy, United Nations Security Council, 1956
Zahir Muhsein- executive committee member of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO, now Palestinian Authority)
March 31, 1977 interview in the Dutch newspaper Trouw:
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”
King Hussein in 1981: "The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan."
The leaders of Jordan are actually from Mecca, they are known as Hashemites, why isn’t Jordan ever called occupied Palestine?
The Qur’an says that Israel belongs to the Jews, Palestine is not mentioned once in the Qur’an, Jerusalem Is Not Mentioned Once In the Qur’an. Muslims did not conquer Jerusalem until after Mohammad’s death. Muslims pray with their back towards Jerusalem
"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'” [Qur'an 17:104]
"And [remember] when Moses said to his people: 'O my people, call in remembrance the favor of God unto you, when he produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave to you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.'" [Qur'an 5:20-21]
“Thus it was, but we made the children of Israel inheritors of it.” [Qur’an 26:59]
“Children of Israel! Call to mind the favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other nations.” [Qur’an 2:47]
The 1948 and 1967 Israeli/Arab Wars Created The Same Amount Of Jewish Refugees From Arab Lands.
They Traveled From As Far Away as Moracco, Yemen, and Iraq.
They came to a new country with nothing and had to learn a new language and culture.
They became productive citizens of Israel.
Most of the Arab refugees moved a few miles either east our south.
They are stuck in refugee status to be used as pawns against Israel in the propaganda war. Jordan and Israel are the only countries that ever granted any of them citizenship.
The early Zionists didn’t just settle the land, they bought the land, piece by piece at 10 times the price from absentee Arab land owners, and then they had to fight for the land against the entire Arab world.
The Arabs and other Muslims could not defeat Israel threw conventional wars or terrorism, so now they do it through lies and Propaganda. Just look what they wrote in the 1964 PLO Charter before Jordan lost the West Bank to Israel in 1967.
Article 24. This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields.
If you don’t believe what I wrote, go look it all up.
So what is my solution?
Gaza can become part of Egypt again. The Arabs in the West Bank were all citizens of Jordan before 1967, they should all be allowed to move to Jordan proper if they wish, or stay where they are and be governed by Jordan. They should also all be allowed to move to any Arab nation that forced out their Jews. What gets lost in all of this over time is the fact that Israel won the wars, get over it Muslim world.
The West Bank (really Judea and Samaria) cannot be given up for security reasons. This video will explain. - ( New Window )
The vast majority of Arabs are the kindest, open-armed people you'll meet. I have lifelong friends in Jordan and Egypt who have opened up their homes and their generosity to me and my family.
But the general Arabic populace is unable to stop the crazy policies set out by the leaders because they in effect run dictatorship states.
Take someone like Jason Rezaian who is an Irani-American who loved his country so much he went back there during uncertain times, and he was jailed for over a year because he's a journalist. The people have no power and the leaders force them to live in a perpetual 3rd world state with policies and social edicts from the Dark Ages.
Until Arabic nations (their leaders) band together and stop to persecution of non-Muslims and eradicate the policies that oppress teh populace, there will be no growth.
And let me be clear here - my vitriol isn't directed at the average Muslim - it is directed squarely on the leaders who perpetrate crimes in the name of Allah and who keep spreading propoganda and fear. They are the face of Islamic society and it is probably the biggest threat that we face today. A few bad apples are spoiling it for millions of Muslims.
How about the Jews? Who are these people? Are they the descendants of the victims of mass murder in the Holocaust, the American born and educated immigrant to Israel, a Russian speaking refugee or the descendant of many who never left the Middle East and were living there when Israel was created?
Hatred is the easy response and the reason there are so many gross oversimplifications by both sides of the debate. Go to Europe, Africa, Asia or the Middle East and ask for a description of the Americans. It is the only way to appreciate the difficulty of branding a culture or a people with labels.
For example, If we are looking at what the average person knows, most probably don't realize that Arabs are Semites, so when somebody talks about being Anti-Semite, it is almost always referred to in the persecution of Jews.
Perhaps you (and others) are unfamiliar with the history.
There is no Occupation. There never was. The land is legally disputed. The partition plan was never accepted by the Arabs. Israel accepted it. Judea, Samaria (the so called West Bank--but do you know any other river bank in the world that is more than a couple of hundred meters wide at most?) and Gaza were then used to attack Israel and illegally "occupied" by Jordan and Egypt respectively. This was never recognized by the western world save a couple of European countries.
In 1967, in a defensive war, Israel took over the land known as the West Bank (the widest river bank to ever exist with miles upon miles of mountains on the bank) and Gaza. According to international law, this land is legally in dispute. Israel actually has the strongest legal claims to it but has never annexed it for various reasons not relevant here.
The UN Security Council (never a friend of Israel) voted quite clearly that Israel was not expected to give up all the land. It was to retire to secure and recognized boundaries. The requirement to be secure and recognized is there to ensure that it is negotiated with a party that will recognize those borders and that Israel won't be pressured to retreat to borders that are indefensible.
At any time since 1967, the opportunity to negotiate with successive Govts of Israel was there. The Arab demands remain maximalist. That is they insist on the return of the entire Judea and Samaria (contrary to 242) as well as the return of all "refugees"*** from 1948 and 1967. The return of these "refugees" would effectively end Israel as the Jewish state. So the Arabs want a Palestine AND a binational state of Israel that they will take over with "refugees" and birthrate.
(***refugees by common international practice refers to first generation refugees who fled the land they were fleeing from. In Israel, refugees is meant to include those who left in 1948 and 1967 as well as their millions of descendants. Not to mention that these "refugees" consist of a majority who left on their own accord after being urged to by ARAB governments so Jews could be exterminated without them around.)
Effectively, the Arabs aren't negotiating, they are demanding and if they don't get what they demand, they kill. They educate this to their children in school, on the airwaves and in their mosques.
When YOU speak of "occupation", you legitimize the narrative that they have conjured. And you therefore harm the cause and country you do care about very much.
Quote:
Arabs are described as 'animals', 'constantly at war with each other
By Western standards, they are animals. It is a culture that breeds intolerance and oppression. It is a culture that restricts cultural expression, stills stones people for adultery, has rigid standards that apply to both law and society.
It is a culture that openly executes Christians and other non-followers of Islam without repurcussions - kicks them right out of their homes and land and forces them to convert or die. It is a culture that makes martyrs out of terrorists, and ridiculously justifies any attack if their religious icon has been slandered or depicted.
Until the Arabic world polices themselves, there will always be conflict because they don't think there's anything wrong with that way of life at the leadership level and the vast majority of people are either too brainwashed or scared as fuck to do anything about it.
There will continue to be issues with Arabic nations because Western culture is really too damn forgiving and won't call what goes on exactly what it is - a serial violation of human rights on an epidemic scale. Because when they do, we hear some happy horseshit about Islam being a religion of peace or we hear about the poor Arabs who have to put up with the militant Jews.
We will endure threats because we won't do what the Islamic states do - cleanse the areas of non-followers. So, we will have suicide bombers have extra leeway because profiling is abhorrent. We will get threatened for asking a Muslim woman to show her face. They use the very tenets of our culture to operate a war of terrorism, and frankly there isn't much to stop them, because people who live to cause disruption and terror are not easily stopped.
And yes, that rant goes outside the bounds of the discussion with Israel, but it is a cultural acceptance of violence and exclusion that most certainly applies.
Very interesting. Thank you for addressing the 'elephant in the room'. Im guessing American Christian culture is the gold standard for human rights and justice?
Millions of Africans enslaved, 250-300 million native Americans wiped out and their land stolen, killed, given disease and parasite infested clothes, having their buffalo live stock slaughtered so that they could die off, women raped.. then we have WWI, WWII (dropped two atomic bombs on civilian inhabited islands.. both bombs dropped just days apart) Vietnam where 1 MILLION vietnamese were killed because we didnt want them to become communist (very tolerant right?), more recent times going into Iraq and blowing the entire country up because of the tons of WMD that was never found, yet America is still there (Along with all of its oil companies raping the land of its resources).
How about black people being lynched right in the middle of the street or in a park where American couples would literally have a picnic while watching the lynching as if they were watching a chic flic on a date.
Veryyyyyy noble and peaceful culture indeed! Rest of the world def needs to take notes.
Amb. Alan Baker
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1. Upon Israel’s taking control of the area in 1967, the 1907 Hague Rules on Land Warfare and the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) were not considered applicable to the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) territory, as the Kingdom of Jordan, prior to 1967, was never the prior legal sovereign, and in any event has since renounced any claim to sovereign rights via a vis the territory.
2. Israel, as administering power pending a negotiated final determination as to the fate of the territory, nevertheless chose to implement the humanitarian provisions of the Geneva convention and other norms of international humanitarian law in order to ensure the basic day-to-day rights of the local population as well as Israel’s own rights to protect its forces and to utilize those parts of land that were not under local private ownership.
3. Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, prohibiting the mass transfer of population into occupied territory as practiced by Germany during the second world war, was neither relevant nor was ever intended to apply to Israelis choosing to reside in Judea and Samaria.
4. Accordingly, claims by the UN, European capitals, organizations and individuals that Israeli settlement activity is in violation of international law therefore have no legal basis whatsoever.
5. Similarly, the oft-used term “occupied Palestinian territories” is totally inaccurate and false. The territories are neither occupied nor Palestinian. No legal instrument has ever determined that the Palestinians have sovereignty or that the territories belong to them
6. The territories of Judea and Samaria remain in dispute between Israel and the Palestinians, subject only to the outcome of permanent status negotiations between them.
7. The legality of the presence of Israel’s communities in the area stems from the historic, indigenous and legal rights of the Jewish people to settle in the area, granted pursuant to valid and binding international legal instruments recognized and accepted by the international community. These rights cannot be denied or placed in question.
8. The Palestinian leadership, in the still valid 1995 Interim Agreement (Oslo 2), agreed to, and accepted Israel’s continued presence in Judea and Samaria pending the outcome of the permanent status negotiations, without any restriction on either side regarding planning, zoning or construction of homes and communities. Hence, claims that Israel’s presence in the area is illegal have no basis.
9. The Palestinian leadership undertook in the Oslo Accords, to settle all outstanding issues, including borders, settlements, security, Jerusalem and refugees, by negotiation only and not through unilateral measures. The Palestinian call for a freeze on settlement activity as a precondition for returning to negotiation is a violation of the agreements.
10. Any attempt, through the UN or otherwise, to unilaterally change the status of the territory would violate Palestinian commitments set out in the Oslo Accords and prejudice the integrity and continued validity of the various agreements with Israel, thereby opening up the situation to possible reciprocal unilateral action by Israel.
Filed Under: International Law
Tags: alan baker, Israel's rights, Israeli sovereignty, Judea and Samaria
About Amb. Alan Baker
Amb. Alan Baker is Director of the Institute for Contemporary Affairs at the Jerusalem Center and the head of the Global Law Forum. He participated in the negotiation and drafting of the Oslo Accords with the Palestinians, as well as agreements and peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon. He served as legal adviser and deputy director-general of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs and as Israel’s ambassador to Canada.
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