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An Israeli man has been killed and his wife and two children wounded after their car was fired on in the occupied West Bank, the military says. It happened near the Jewish settlement of Otniel. The man was killed when the car overturned after the attack. Israeli forces are searching for a Palestinian gunman. It is the second fatal attack on an Israeli in the West Bank in two days. On Thursday a 13-year-old girl was killed in her bedroom by a Palestinian. Thirty-five Israelis have now been killed in a wave of knife, gun and car-ramming attacks since October. More than 200 Palestinians - mostly attackers, Israel says - have also been killed in that period. The assailants who have been killed have been shot either by their victims or by security forces as they carried out attacks. Some attackers have been arrested. Palestinian shot dead The victims of Friday's attack were members of the same family. The driver was a father, said to be in his 40s; his wife and two children were taken to hospital for treatment. The shooting happened on Route 60, about nine miles (15km) south of the settlement of Kiryat Arba, where a day earlier teenager Hallel Yaffa Ariel was stabbed to death as she slept. |
hassan, muhajir (and you) biased?
--No borders have been established or recognized by the parties. Armistice lines do not establish borders, and the 1949 Armistice Agreements in particular specifically stated (at Arab insistence) that they were not creating permanent or de jure borders.
--In line with the above idea, the Israeli government has officially stated that its position is that the territories cannot be called occupied, as no nation had clear rights to them, and there was no operative diplomatic arrangement, when Israel acquired them in June 1967.
--Territories are only "occupied" if they are captured in war from an established and recognized sovereign, but no state had a legitimate or recognized sovereignty over the West Bank, Gaza Strip or East Jerusalem prior to the Six-Day War.
--The Fourth Geneva Convention is not applicable to the West Bank and Gaza Strip, since, under its Article 2, it pertains only to "cases of…occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party" by another High Contracting party. The West Bank and Gaza Strip have never been the legal territories of any High Contracting Party.
--Even if the Fourth Geneva Convention had applied at one point, they certainly did not apply once the Israel transferred governmental powers to the Palestinian Authority in accordance with the 1993 Oslo Accords, since Article 6 of the convention states that the Occupying Power would only be bound to its terms "to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory....".
--Israel took control of the West Bank as a result of a defensive war. The language of "occupation" has allowed Palestinian spokesmen to obfuscate this history. By repeatedly pointing to "occupation," they manage to reverse the causality of the conflict, especially in front of Western audiences. Thus, the current territorial dispute is allegedly the result of an Israeli decision "to occupy," rather than a result of a war imposed on Israel by a coalition of Arab states in 1967. Former State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who later headed the International Court of Justice in the Hague, wrote in 1970 regarding Israel's case: "Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title."
The Great Palestinian Lie - ( New Window )
The irresponsibility shown by leaders in the Islamic/Arabic world is a topic I'm very direct on. I shoulder some blame here for directing things off the original topic and expanding the scope to Islamic law and rule.
If I had to capture my points more succinctly on the situation in the ME, I'd say that regardless of whose land it should be, Israel is surrounded by leaders who want the country gone. This is not an argument to say Israel is blameless, it is an argument that from my viewpoint, anyone trying to hold more blame to Israel while opposition has publicly stated they want Israel expunged is a folly. And the worst thing to me is when Israel does defend itself or fights back and the Arab nations cry foul and use it to justify more martyrdoms and more suicide missions.
There simply should not be so much rationalization to support the behavior of the Arabic leaders. It is plain and simply abhorrent.
No one would accept statements about their culture that Muslims are subjected to on a regular basis here. Its rather disgraceful quite frankly. Additionally, the bullcrap that islam is inherently more prone to this type of 'savagery'--Eurpoean history until very recently, even our own actions in the middle east would suggest otherwise.
BTW, legitimate critiques of ISIS, Muslim leadership, etc are all fair game. Im very critical myself. What I don't like is the turning of the blind eye, the selective bias many show here. If you supported the Iraq War, for example, in my mind you have mostly lost any moral ground to critique Islamic states for their admitted issues as specially part of their 'religion'.
If you ask me, Mujahir, myself and AP have been far more reasonable than the other view. Just look at the statements made.
I have to agree with Bill.
I'm as Pro-Israel as they come (yes, Liberals can still be pro-Israel, though I oppose Bibi and the settlements), but I don't see the point in starting this thread. It's certainly a tragedy that this father was murdered by savages, but what exactly was the point of this thread?
No one would accept statements about their culture that Muslims are subjected to on a regular basis here. Its rather disgraceful quite frankly. Additionally, the bullcrap that islam is inherently more prone to this type of 'savagery'--Eurpoean history until very recently, even our own actions in the middle east would suggest otherwise.
BTW, legitimate critiques of ISIS, Muslim leadership, etc are all fair game. Im very critical myself. What I don't like is the turning of the blind eye, the selective bias many show here. If you supported the Iraq War, for example, in my mind you have mostly lost any moral ground to critique Islamic states for their admitted issues as specially part of their 'religion'.
If you ask me, Mujahir, myself and AP have been far more reasonable than the other view. Just look at the statements made.
How many that argue against Islam can say the same on this board? Can you honestly suggest that?
Thank you and congratulations on the new contract :P
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You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people.
The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.)
And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after.
The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan
(80 post thread in 3....2...1...)
I generally stay off these threads, but muhajir, you're generally very level headed so I think I can actually have a conversation with you, even if we don't change each other's views.
First, the point about human rights violations is a joke. Just looking at who heads up the council is enough to make one laugh. In March, when they convened, they only condemned Israel out of every country in the world for violating woman's rights. You're going to take what they say seriously?
In regards to the water supply - we're going to disagree with if it was done intentionally or not but I've read (can try to find links if you want) the system IS really old and they're having legit issues. The fact that the PA hasn't paid for the supply is a whole different story (I don't agree with cutting it off at all).
I think the only real question I have for you is, do you honestly believe if a two state solution was agreed upon, there would actually be peace and would Jews be allowed to live in the Palestinian state like Arabs live in Israel?
Good question Jay, if there was a two state solution, I 100% believe Israel would be in little to no danger of the Palestinians any longer. Just as they arent in danger from the other sovereign surrounding Arab nation's. Saudia Arabia actually has much better diplomatic relations with Israel then it does with predominately muslim Iran. Its politics, not religion.
As for Jews living in Palestine there after, they probably would suffer discrimination due to the deep resentment the Palestinians will still be harboring due to the decades of occupation.
Just the nature of the situation. But the main argument is always about whether Israelis would still be attacked if a two state solution was established. And like i said, history and the present have shown that Arab nations and Israel can most certainty live in peace next to each other.
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In comment 13017251 muhajir said:
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You've clearly been educated by an extremely biased set of sources and people.
The Palestinians are occupied, Gaza besieged, and 'settlements' (such a peaceful name) are actually heavily fortified huge areas illegally (by international standards) built right in the middle of Palestinian land. Inhabited by 'settlers' (another very peaceful name for heavily armed and militant Israelis that are willing to move into Palestinian areas and just simply make it theres.)
And blue thank you for the Ramadan well wishes. Israel wished huge areas of the West Bank a happy Ramadan by cutting off water supplies to thousands of fasting people this month (like when they cut off electricity as collective punishment every so often) and blamed it on faulty pipes after.
The list of Israeli human rights violations is a very very long one so dont feel surprised when the Palestinians hate Israel. Read up and educate yourself fatman so you dont keep spreading that bias nonesense garbage that was explained to you. Happy Ramadan
(80 post thread in 3....2...1...)
I generally stay off these threads, but muhajir, you're generally very level headed so I think I can actually have a conversation with you, even if we don't change each other's views.
First, the point about human rights violations is a joke. Just looking at who heads up the council is enough to make one laugh. In March, when they convened, they only condemned Israel out of every country in the world for violating woman's rights. You're going to take what they say seriously?
In regards to the water supply - we're going to disagree with if it was done intentionally or not but I've read (can try to find links if you want) the system IS really old and they're having legit issues. The fact that the PA hasn't paid for the supply is a whole different story (I don't agree with cutting it off at all).
I think the only real question I have for you is, do you honestly believe if a two state solution was agreed upon, there would actually be peace and would Jews be allowed to live in the Palestinian state like Arabs live in Israel?
Good question Jay, if there was a two state solution, I 100% believe Israel would be in little to no danger of the Palestinians any longer. Just as they arent in danger from the other sovereign surrounding Arab nation's. Saudia Arabia actually has much better diplomatic relations with Israel then it does with predominately muslim Iran. Its politics, not religion.
As for Jews living in Palestine there after, they probably would suffer discrimination due to the deep resentment the Palestinians will still be harboring due to the decades of occupation.
Just the nature of the situation. But the main argument is always about whether Israelis would still be attacked if a two state solution was established. And like i said, history and the present have shown that Arab nations and Israel can most certainty live in peace next to each other.
How did land for peace work out in Gaza?
As long as you have a Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and inept Palestinian leadership there will never be peace.....
How many that argue against Islam can say the same on this board? Can you honestly suggest that?
When radical Islam is causing terror in several countries, you are going to have smears against it. When non-followers are taken from their homes and land and forced to convert or die or be banished, to think there won't be harsh comments made is naive.
When Judiasm or any other religion fosters violence against people who don't believe the same things, they should come under scrutiny as well.
The onus lies on the entire Islamic population to police those who are giving the religion a black eye, and if they cannot reform from within, it sure as hell isn't going to happen from outside.
To not understand the outrage really shows the lack of awareness of the world around us.
Regarding the 'truth', I hold my opinion and of course its my bias but I never view it as sancrosanct, or the truth.
I comprehend I can always learn more about any perspective and I might even be wrong.
Regarding Islam, read some of the comments here. Would not be tolerated for any other group. Not even close.
If the criticism is specific and targeted, I am absolutely fine. There are terrible geopolitical and economic and yes religious cultural issues coming to light in the middle east. Muslims by the way are the biggest victims. By a mile, its not even close.
Suggesting all Muslims must be accountable and answering for this is just laughable. You need to stop posting your nonsense, you really aren't representing yourself well on this thread.
It’s impractical at best, especially given its environs (like insisting Mulberry St stay purely Italian despite being surrounded by Asians) and bigoted at worst.
The whole idea of a [insert any religion] state is ridiculous. I’m not picking on Israel. Which Muslim countries are closest to worthy of being called members of the 21st century? Those whose religious identity is secondary.
Though Turkey has regrettably slipped in recent years under the increasingly autocratic Erdogan, I want everyone to read and absorb this quote by Ataturk, from 1924.
Imagine how the world would change if leaders of Muslim countries – almost a century later no less – took those words to heart.
One should not underestimate the degree to which The Establishment Clause is responsible for America’s rise and continued prosperity. I am dead serious. It is a massively indispensable reason we are where we are. The denizens of Israel (which includes, remember, ~1.75 million Sunni Muslims) would do well to consider themselves first and foremost, not Jewish or Muslim, but Israeli.
“But Overseer…the Jewish people, long brutalized and in a world still rife with anti-Semitism, need a safe place to call home!”
They have one. It’s called the United States of America. It’s not 1935 anymore. Come on over to Riverdale, we love your delis. Hate cold winters? Me too. You’re gonna love Boca Raton. And please bring lots of smokin young Jewish women (I’d love to show them around).
Or stay where you are. But…those of you in practice against a two-state solution (including, at present, the PM & Knesset), do you know basic arithmetic? Because Arab-Israelis have sex too, at a greater rate than Jews. Even factoring in Jewish immigration, the % of Arab-Israelis will continue to grow. So if Israel is to remain both Jewish and the wonderful democracy that it is, something’s gotta give…
As Yasser Arafat once said:
Did I say Yasser Arafat? Sorry, I meant Ben Gurion.
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This is a digression from the geo-political nature of the rest of this thread, forgive me. But it’s just difficult not to long for a world (like the one America brilliantly, and I mean brilliantly chose 2 ½ centuries ago) continually bogged down by a bunch of fanciful made up bullshit, ginned up when the doctors of the day placed leeches on people in order to “cure” diseases. At least medicine evolved.
I don't know what the goal was. It was obviously a stupid question. However, it was a good discussion and I really enjoyed Jeffrey's posts.
It’s impractical at best, especially given its environs (like insisting Mulberry St stay purely Italian despite being surrounded by Asians) and bigoted at worst.
The whole idea of a [insert any religion] state is ridiculous. I’m not picking on Israel. Which Muslim countries are closest to worthy of being called members of the 21st century? Those whose religious identity is secondary.
Though Turkey has regrettably slipped in recent years under the increasingly autocratic Erdogan, I want everyone to read and absorb this quote by Ataturk, from 1924.
Quote:
The religion of Islam will be elevated if it will cease to be a political instrument, as had been the case in the past
Imagine how the world would change if leaders of Muslim countries – almost a century later no less – took those words to heart.
One should not underestimate the degree to which The Establishment Clause is responsible for America’s rise and continued prosperity. I am dead serious. It is a massively indispensable reason we are where we are. The denizens of Israel (which includes, remember, ~1.75 million Sunni Muslims) would do well to consider themselves first and foremost, not Jewish or Muslim, but Israeli.
“But Overseer…the Jewish people, long brutalized and in a world still rife with anti-Semitism, need a safe place to call home!”
They have one. It’s called the United States of America. It’s not 1935 anymore. Come on over to Riverdale, we love your delis. Hate cold winters? Me too. You’re gonna love Boca Raton. And please bring lots of smokin young Jewish women (I’d love to show them around).
Or stay where you are. But…those of you in practice against a two-state solution (including, at present, the PM & Knesset), do you know basic arithmetic? Because Arab-Israelis have sex too, at a greater rate than Jews. Even factoring in Jewish immigration, the % of Arab-Israelis will continue to grow. So if Israel is to remain both Jewish and the wonderful democracy that it is, something’s gotta give…
As Yasser Arafat once said:
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Israel better rid itself of the territories and their Arab populations as soon as possible. If it did not Israel would soon become an Apartheid State.
Did I say Yasser Arafat? Sorry, I meant Ben Gurion.
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This is a digression from the geo-political nature of the rest of this thread, forgive me. But it’s just difficult not to long for a world (like the one America brilliantly, and I mean brilliantly chose 2 ½ centuries ago) continually bogged down by a bunch of fanciful made up bullshit, ginned up when the doctors of the day placed leeches on people in order to “cure” diseases. At least medicine evolved.
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Supporting a 2 state solution and wishing only for long term Peace and harmony in the region. And voted for Ehud Barak's party which was supported by an overwhelming mandate of the broader Israeli populace to finish up the business started by Rabin and Arafat st the Oslo accords. And Barak went to camp David to meet Arafat. And Arafat said "fuck you" and declared war by Intifada. In fact I could even underdtand the FU. If Arafat felt the deal offered wasn't fair, if he felt the Palestinians were being railroaded into concessions that were too severe... I could live with that thought and that stubbornness. But how to get what he wanted as fair and just? The historic models have been well laid out during the past century to achieve desired results and Israels' populace was ready to bend at that moment. You could feel it. Non violent protests. Peacefull marches. Bloock highways non violently. Lay down in the streets. Fast... But Arafat chose war. What did that say? What was his and the Palestinians' true objective?
this is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever read. What was offered to Arafat was a South African style bantusysnce. Essentially a non contiguous state that would be split up into multiple cantons.
The reality of the matter is simple. Israel is following a policy of expansion. When one reads internal Israeli documents they make clear that fears over security don't exist but rather they are seeking a policy of expansion. Israeli behavior of the occupied territories is a war crime as outlined by the 4 Th Geneva convention. This convention was initiated to criminalize the conduct of NAZI Germany's during the Second World War. As a result of their bull dozing Palestinian homes and annexing Palesinisn territory radical groups have developed that use terrorist actions to fight s political war. In Gaza Israel have essentially surrounded and enclosed the area turning it into a massive ghetto which is an act of war under Internstional law. Israel is an occupying power and a violent criminal rogue state that is universally condemned by the entire world routinely outside of the United States. All in votes are typically 155 to 2 that they terminate their occupation and settlement expansion.
In fact Israel is one of the most secure countries on earth. It is backed and funded by the us the worlds sole super power. Saudi Arabia, Egypt Jordan turkey etc etc etc are all allies of the United States and as such are not enemies to Israel. Even Irans animosity amounts to little more then rhetoric to cover up the failures of the Iranian regime. Israel is considered to be the fourth strongest military on earth with a huge stock pile of nuclear weapons that are in violation of the nuclear nom proliferation treaty. Israel is the aggressor and the blowback is Palestinian terror.
Their are also extremist Israeli terrorists who are psychotic Orthodox Jews who rampage in the West Bank. There are no doubt psychotic Palestinian terrorists. But the racism towards Jews is equaled by Jewish racism towards Palestinians. It is common place during war for both sides to dehumanized the other. Hence our racist names for the Japanese and Vietnamese and Germans etc etc.
Take a look at what the ignorant fat man wrote about them being animals. Imagine someone said that about Jews? That person would rightfully be criticized.
The Jewish and Palestinian people are great. Their leaders are vile monsters. But the ignorance about the conflict in this country is pathetic and these posts are a perfect illustration.
Perfectly said
Our american hypocrisy and lack of self awareness is an amazing thing sometimes. We should be better than this; of course we know, we are gifted with a multicultural perspective, many here are not (and will continue to live in their small worlds).....
Men are basic creatures, all are capable of good and bad, and all are complex at the same time. Anyone who subscribes to a simplistic view around this will never find the right solutions. Its most of this board.
At this point, I know who they are and I should just generally take their good points and avoid their bad, but pride gets the best of me. I see many provoked a lot more than we are by far less..........
Good night!
I'm suggesting that in order for there to be any chance for a halt to the ridiculous of Islamic Law, the abject oppression, and the elimination of ethnic cleansing that still goes on in ISIS or Taliban controlled areas that change has to come from within. It can't be a foreign land that dictates it.
But that won't happen as long as people think there's really nothing wrong or that false equivalencies like the Iraq War somehow negate the atrocities.
And again there is a major difference here. Even in the Iraq War, some world leaders voiced their dissent over it. Politicians in the US even disagreed over it. Where are the Arabic leaders who are dissenting over the way Israel is treated?
If you don't think that in today's day that radical Islam is playing a huge part on the world's stage I really don't know what to say.
But hey, if it's not as bad as the Iraq War, everything else is OK....
We aren't likely to see change because it has been this way for centuries.
If people here who claim to care about the Palestinians did they might be more worked up about the massive slaughter going on in Syria. Or the carnage in Iraq. Israel is a bastion of stability in a brutal section of the world. And by the way what are the national goals of the Palestinians aside from murdering Jews?
The Myth of the "Myth of the Generous Offer" - ( New Window )