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An Israeli man has been killed and his wife and two children wounded after their car was fired on in the occupied West Bank, the military says. It happened near the Jewish settlement of Otniel. The man was killed when the car overturned after the attack. Israeli forces are searching for a Palestinian gunman. It is the second fatal attack on an Israeli in the West Bank in two days. On Thursday a 13-year-old girl was killed in her bedroom by a Palestinian. Thirty-five Israelis have now been killed in a wave of knife, gun and car-ramming attacks since October. More than 200 Palestinians - mostly attackers, Israel says - have also been killed in that period. The assailants who have been killed have been shot either by their victims or by security forces as they carried out attacks. Some attackers have been arrested. Palestinian shot dead The victims of Friday's attack were members of the same family. The driver was a father, said to be in his 40s; his wife and two children were taken to hospital for treatment. The shooting happened on Route 60, about nine miles (15km) south of the settlement of Kiryat Arba, where a day earlier teenager Hallel Yaffa Ariel was stabbed to death as she slept. |
I've erred a couple of times on this thread - the first was taking the focus away from the Israel discussion to the broader spectrum of the Islamic world and also by saying the isn't dissention or opposition. There isn't outrage from the Arabic leaders, which is pretty damning considering many of them lead like dictators.
In Early America, when the Puritans forced their ideals on people, things like burning witches and branding people heretics was common. Separating Church and State led to progress. In the Arabic world, they are intertwined and as long as they are, there will be no reform or progress.
When people call out radical Islam, there are inevitably defenses that say those people are either bigoted or ignorant and talk about the millions of people who are non-violent and practice the supposed religion of peace that shouldn't be painted with broadstrokes. I agree they shouldn't.
But let's not pretend radical Islam isn't shaping current world events. When a terrorist act happens, it isn't a Christian, Buddhist or Jew stepping forward to claim responsibility, it is an Islamic group proud to spread terror. The outrage has to go beyond clerics and imams. Action has to go to people who lead. And it simply hasn't.
And again - that strays from the topic of Israel, but it is the response to those who think attacking radical Islam is without merit or ignorant.
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Who disagrees that some Arab leaders are assholes? It's like arguing they declined the state solution. The leadership has been one the biggest problems over the last 50 years.
Not sure why you asked me that.
Not to my mind Bill. The purpose of the thread was to draw attention to the current and ongoing wave of terror attacks being carried out in Israel and the West Bank since October 2015.
It drifted far afield from that aim.
So to address the initial point I am linking two sources of information, one from each side, which appear to me creditable and extremely thorough.
In light of the information provided in the links I would like to address one small statement from one of Donkey's posts that IMO createed a valid "talking point".
Their are also extremist Israeli terrorists who are psychotic Orthodox Jews who rampage in the West Bank.
I have lived and worked in the West Bank and have many friends there, including Christian Arabs. I highly disagree with the characterization of Israeli West Bank settlers as "psychotics... who rampage."
Naturally Donkey's statement doesn't mention the numbers of these attacks by Jewish settlers on their Palestinian neighbors so I dug up the details.
Since October 20015 when the Intifada, the wave if terrorist attacks against Israel began, there have been over 280 attacks and attempted attacks on Israelis. During that same time period, there have been 3 attacks and attempted attacks by Israeli citizens on Palestinians. THREE.
I regret there have been any. In two of the cases the Israeli suspects were tried and imprisoned, in one case of an Israeli man accused of "attempting to chase" a Palestinian young girl there was an investigation but no ensuing charges.
Anyway the Israeli documentation of Palestinians attacks is linked below; while the information reporting Israeli attacks and abuses directed towards Palestinians is available here: (the pro Palestinian information is a very long list to read through or even scan, and includes incidents of Egyptian attacks on Palestinians during incidents at the Gaza/ Egyptian border.)
http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israeli-palestinians-injured/
I believe the relevant information on the current intifada and the Israeli response to it are well documented in these two links.
Wave of Terror Attacks Reported by the Israeli Foreign Ministry - ( New Window )
Secondly, have I ever denied radical Islam is not a force in the world that must be addressed? Clearly it is.
My challenge is, you've run through so many of the weak typical responses right wingers hold towards all Muslims. Why don't they condemn attacks? They should stand up against ISIS/radicals (again, they are the most brutalized victims of such groups). You also failed to distinguish between radical Islam and its regular adherents, which you pivoted and corrected. But then you suggest all Muslims need to be accountable for the acts of a few?
Regarding the Muslim world's ability to stand up to ISIS or current leadership, this is a particularly tough challenge. One, these are not democratic societies and wealth distributon is a major issue. Two, one side is armed, the other isn't.
But, we do have the examples of Libya, Egypt and others. Its happening, its a slow painful process. The US and the West must also help because ISIS needs to be destroyed and its also in our interest to remove this scourge.
Quote: the only problem with this thread is that Simo/dust_bowl/nine lives/donky has been allowed to make another handle and rejoin BBI.
Interesting that some have actually complimented him on this thread.
Even more interesting to my mind Al is that every single one of Donkey's points was countered, by legal, logistical comprehensive and specific posts.
I didn't respond to his claim that my point about the Camp David failure was "bullshit" because it simply wasn't worth responding to. But I did address one of his nonsensical statements above, with detailed information.
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the only problem with this thread is that Simo/dust_bowl/nine lives/donky has been allowed to make another handle and rejoin BBI.
Interesting that some have actually complimented him on this thread.
Many of his points are valid, unpopular but valid. He takes it to an extreme.
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In comment 13018736 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote: the only problem with this thread is that Simo/dust_bowl/nine lives/donky has been allowed to make another handle and rejoin BBI.
Interesting that some have actually complimented him on this thread.
Even more interesting to my mind Al is that every single one of Donkey's points was countered, by legal, logistical comprehensive and specific posts.
I didn't respond to his claim that my point about the Camp David failure was "bullshit" because it simply wasn't worth responding to. But I did address one of his nonsensical statements above, with detailed information.
FMIC has posed strawmen arguments, regarding condemndation of terror amongst the Muslim community (combatted). He also provided a view of conditions for Palestinians that came across as context deprived. Hes suggested that on the issue that 'plenty of blame' to go around that this must be a subjective viewpoint (laughable assertion--irrespective of which side you may lean towards, if you cannot see something wrong with a Hamas government or the heavy handed responses Bibi and Sharon have taken then you are basically a wingnut).......
FMIC has posed strawmen arguments, regarding condemndation of terror amongst the Muslim community (combatted). He also provided a view of conditions for Palestinians that came across as context deprived. Hes suggested that on the issue that 'plenty of blame' to go around that this must be a subjective viewpoint (laughable assertion--irrespective of which side you may lean towards, if you cannot see something wrong with a Hamas government or the heavy handed responses Bibi and Sharon have taken then you are basically a wingnut).......
"Three times in their history the Palestinians were offered statehood -- in 1937 [when the Peel Commission recommended partition], in 1947 [when the UN General Assembly voted partition] and through the Clinton Parameters in 2000 -- and three times they have rejected it."--Shlomo Ben-Ami
The Myth of The Myth of the "Myth of the Generous Offer" - ( New Window )
Milton thank you.
I wish that Muhajir and Hassan would at least look at this since it concisely backs up my point about Camp David and the ensuing discussions.
Not to mention your point that "Arab [ie Palestinian] leadership failed miserably."
What did the Saudi Prince say about Arafat's rejection (and refusal to counter offer or even take it as a negotiating point) of the proposal? "If the consequences (of Arafat's rejection) weren't so serious they would be comic."
What many came to realize in Israel was that Arafat would NEVER give up the refugees "right of return" to Israel proper, which of course would demographically eliminate the Jewish state. Somehow Arafat confused his insistence on this totally unrealistic demand and what any rational person could see as a negotiating ploy with a "reality" that he had been selling to Palestinians for years.
But why is it considered foolish to expect there to be reform from within? If the US tries to rectify the situation, it just spawns more radicalism.
I also don't look at this as a right-wing type of thing. The older I get, the less tolerance I have for hate. Hate of homosexuality. Hate of races. Just hate in general. And Islamic leadership breeds and fosters hate. They need to in order to keep the populace scared and in line, a populace that is filled with people who are being robbed of educational opportunities, advancement and development. Because all of that is bad for despots.
My belief is that until change comes from within, there won't be significant change. And I do understand it is very difficult to accomplish. Which is one of the reasons it hasn't happened.
A smear with a broad stroke is rarely ever a decent conversation, too much here ends up in this camp regarding this issue. My other challenge with these threads is the selective logic/outrage applied.
A smear with a broad stroke is rarely ever a decent conversation, too much here ends up in this camp regarding this issue. My other challenge with these threads is the selective logic/outrage applied.
I was in Israel for 8 days last year. During that time, I saw the most deplorable behavior I had ever seen in any place that I've traveled, which has been significant.
I saw Palestinian children knowingly step near vehicles bump the car and then fall to the ground trying to draw attention to the scene. I saw people spitting at passerbys for no apparent reason. In one restaurant, a group of people threw their trash on the floor and started screaming. I saw kids being used as pawns to try and agitate. And in every case, the Israelis avoided the conflict and refused to even acknowledge the behavior. It was by far the most bizarre social scene I've encountered. And it wasn't just one instance it wasn't two, it happened the entire trip.
And yes, this is one man's view over a little more than a week, but I've gone to so many countries and never came back trying to find out more on why something is like it is. I've never had the confusion of "what the hell is going on" to spur me to look deeper into a situation.
For me, that trip was more powerful than any other I have taken. This thread was only an opportunity for me to explain my experience and I self-admittedly brought it off topic by expounding to other areas not germane to the Israel situation.
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He also provided a view of conditions for Palestinians that came across as context deprived.
I was in Israel for 8 days last year. During that time, I saw the most deplorable behavior I had ever seen in any place that I've traveled, which has been significant.
I saw Palestinian children knowingly step near vehicles bump the car and then fall to the ground trying to draw attention to the scene. I saw people spitting at passerbys for no apparent reason. In one restaurant, a group of people threw their trash on the floor and started screaming. I saw kids being used as pawns to try and agitate. And in every case, the Israelis avoided the conflict and refused to even acknowledge the behavior. It was by far the most bizarre social scene I've encountered. And it wasn't just one instance it wasn't two, it happened the entire trip.
And yes, this is one man's view over a little more than a week, but I've gone to so many countries and never came back trying to find out more on why something is like it is. I've never had the confusion of "what the hell is going on" to spur me to look deeper into a situation.
For me, that trip was more powerful than any other I have taken. This thread was only an opportunity for me to explain my experience and I self-admittedly brought it off topic by expounding to other areas not germane to the Israel situation.
Unlike Mujahir, I don't believe in a two state solution. Isreael, along with the Palestinians, the US and other Arab states must figure out how to relocate some/most of these refugees and then Israel must absorb the rest. And I get the challenges with that but the second state will simply be a weak parasite to Israel anyway. Why bother?
With that said, rejection of the offers made come down to specifics of the deals, which Im not privy to, but the fact no counter offer was made suggest that at least in the 90s, Arafat was not sincere in actually striking a deal.
And that's with me butchering their language which if it weren't in the days immediately after 9/11 would've gotten me sneers and a shitty French attitude thrown my way.
It’s impractical at best, especially given its environs (like insisting Mulberry St stay purely Italian despite being surrounded by Asians) and bigoted at worst.
The whole idea of a [insert any religion] state is ridiculous. I’m not picking on Israel. Which Muslim countries are closest to worthy of being called members of the 21st century? Those whose religious identity is secondary.
Though Turkey has regrettably slipped in recent years under the increasingly autocratic Erdogan, I want everyone to read and absorb this quote by Ataturk, from 1924.
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The religion of Islam will be elevated if it will cease to be a political instrument, as had been the case in the past
Imagine how the world would change if leaders of Muslim countries – almost a century later no less – took those words to heart.
One should not underestimate the degree to which The Establishment Clause is responsible for America’s rise and continued prosperity. I am dead serious. It is a massively indispensable reason we are where we are. The denizens of Israel (which includes, remember, ~1.75 million Sunni Muslims) would do well to consider themselves first and foremost, not Jewish or Muslim, but Israeli.
“But Overseer…the Jewish people, long brutalized and in a world still rife with anti-Semitism, need a safe place to call home!”
They have one. It’s called the United States of America. It’s not 1935 anymore. Come on over to Riverdale, we love your delis. Hate cold winters? Me too. You’re gonna love Boca Raton. And please bring lots of smokin young Jewish women (I’d love to show them around).
Or stay where you are. But…those of you in practice against a two-state solution (including, at present, the PM & Knesset), do you know basic arithmetic? Because Arab-Israelis have sex too, at a greater rate than Jews. Even factoring in Jewish immigration, the % of Arab-Israelis will continue to grow. So if Israel is to remain both Jewish and the wonderful democracy that it is, something’s gotta give…
As Yasser Arafat once said:
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Israel better rid itself of the territories and their Arab populations as soon as possible. If it did not Israel would soon become an Apartheid State.
Did I say Yasser Arafat? Sorry, I meant Ben Gurion.
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This is a digression from the geo-political nature of the rest of this thread, forgive me. But it’s just difficult not to long for a world (like the one America brilliantly, and I mean brilliantly chose 2 ½ centuries ago) continually bogged down by a bunch of fanciful made up bullshit, ginned up when the doctors of the day placed leeches on people in order to “cure” diseases. At least medicine evolved.
Good post, but still liked your paean to boobs better.
Palestinian children trying to provoke IDF soldiers
Palestinian children throwing rocks at cars
180 children died digging tunnels for Hamas in Gaza prior to the war in August 2014, but we didn't hear any outrage from the American and European left until Palestinian children were dying as a result of Israel's response to rocket fire.
Oh, and p.s.-- They're again dying building tunnels into Israel.
Unlike Mujahir, I don't believe in a two state solution. Israel, along with the Palestinians, the US and other Arab states must figure out how to relocate some/most of these refugees and then Israel must absorb the rest. And I get the challenges with that but the second state will simply be a weak parasite to Israel anyway. Why bother?
As for what that Palestinian state will be like, well, that's up to the Palestinians. Once freed from under the thumb of their corrupt, incompetent, and oppressive leadership, they might surprise you. Germany and Japan emerged from defeat and humiliation to build quite robust democracies, despite being "weakened" militarily. Once given a state, the Palestinian people will have the potential to build for themselves either a North Korea or a South Korea. It will be up to them and the leadership they vote into office.
As I said before, until Islam has a reformation and the goals of an Islamic run world are abandoned, nothing will change.
p.s.-- One theory (not from this documentary) was that Russia wanted to provoke a war so that they could use it as an excuse to fly over Dimona and take out Israel's nuclear plant. They didn't want Israel getting nuclear weapons. But the war got out of hand much too quickly for them to fulfill that goal.
Six Days in June - ( New Window )
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Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate.
Nothing about my stance suggest BDS, and I think that's BDS is a joke personally.
As I said before, until Islam has a reformation and the goals of an Islamic run world are abandoned, nothing will change.
Yes buford. Islam is the problem. Not that the Palestinians are occupied and humiliated every day of their lives. Thank you for your always valuable contribution.
Nothing about my stance suggest BDS, and I think that's BDS is a joke personally.
Here's my "road map" to a two-state solution....
1. Israel puts together a team of negotiators which brings their plan for a two-state solution to the United States where they meet with a team of American negotiators who's job it is to advocate for the Palestinians.
2. Between these two teams, they negotiate a two-state solution to the conflict that the Americans are willing to sign off on.
3. With solution in hand, the American-Israeli team heads to Europe to present their two-state solution to the European Union (and England) and a team of negotiators put together by the Europeans. As before, it will fall upon the Europeans to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians.
4. The two sides negotiate and "tweaks" are made to the American-European two-state solution to accommodate whatever complaints the Europeans have with it. And the Europeans than sign off on it.
5. At this point, the American-Israeli-European team takes their two-state solution to the Arab League. It may be impossible to expect the Arab League to sign off on it, but they need to at least try, and perhaps they can at least get Egypt and Jordan to give it the okay.
6. China and Russia are also asked to sign off on it.
7. Once all that is completed, they go about the business of implementing it. A big part of the implementation plan will be holding elections in the Palestinian territories. And of course the necessary eradication/defeat of Hamas and Islamic Jihad (nobody thinks Hamas is going to lay down their arms willingly).
Regardless of the Arab League's (and the Russia's and China's) public stance, if Israel can just get America and Europe to recognize their two-state solution as legitimate, in time the rest of the world will fall in behind it. The key to my plan is getting Europe on board.
p.s.-- In case, you hadn't noticed, I'm leaving out the Palestinian leadership for reasons that should be obvious.
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Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate.
Bufords entire thought process revolves around how evil Muslims and the Koran are. She doesnt need debate. She needs a hug.
And at the end of the show he reiterates that point.
It was very well done and not slanted by Bourdain
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the Koran is 70% political, a legal system if you will. Adherents are not satisfied living their life by this system, but want it to be the law of the land. Much as it was when the Catholic Church ran Europe.
As I said before, until Islam has a reformation and the goals of an Islamic run world are abandoned, nothing will change.
Yes buford. Islam is the problem. Not that the Palestinians are occupied and humiliated every day of their lives. Thank you for your always valuable contribution.
Why are they occupied (your word) and humiliated (your word). Seems that if they stopped trying to kill Israelis things would be a lot better for them. But they don't. Why not? Seriously, I am asking you, since you seem to have set yourself up as the spokesperson for them. Why not blame their corrupt leaders or Hamas or Iran and their proxy Hezbollah? No, it's easier to blame the Jews.
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In comment 13018957 AP in Halfmoon said:
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Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate.
Bufords entire thought process revolves around how evil Muslims and the Koran are. She doesnt need debate. She needs a hug.
So you don't agree that Islam needs a reformation? There are plenty, even in the Muslim world who agree that it does.
Link - ( New Window )
Am I missing something ?
Let's start there.
They kill people over cartoons. End of moral analysis. And it's not a small percentage of radicals "twisting" the religion who believe in such wanton, ignorant, barbarity in the name of "God."
Am I missing something ?
Yes you are. Israeli Arabs, while they can enjoy an excellent existence in Israel and are allowed voting rights and can serve in the Knesset are not allowed 100% the rights of Jewish Israeli's. Also for your and Buford's consumption there has been a huge struggle for decades between the Orthodox who are a huge minority and most of the Israeli Jews who are secular Jews. The orthodox have controlled certain important laws such as the fact that Israel will only officially recognized marriage ceremonies performed by orthodox Rabbi's. Again Israel is a wonderful country that is much more tolerant than an oppressive Islamic state such as Saudi Arabia. However it is incorrect to state that is only the Koran or Arab states that let theology rule civil law.
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In comment 13018962 Big Al said:
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In comment 13018957 AP in Halfmoon said:
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Can you amplify your response? I know that Buford is an easy target here no matter what she says, but show her to be wrong with debate.
Bufords entire thought process revolves around how evil Muslims and the Koran are. She doesnt need debate. She needs a hug.
So you don't agree that Islam needs a reformation? There are plenty, even in the Muslim world who agree that it does. Link - ( New Window )
Of course i dont agree Islam needs a reformation. Peoples actions around the world, Muslim and nonmuslim need a reformation. Religion is what you make of it. If a jew wants to be violent, you better believe there are plenty of verses in the Torah that they can use as a justification. Does judiasm need a reformation? No.
And your link has the opinion of an Egyptian dictator that I wouldnt wipe my aaa with.
But ANYWAY, your question has nothing to do with the Political conflict between Israel and Palestine. But as usual you tie every conflict back to Islam some how. Always nice chatting with you btw (muhajir rolls eyes... goes back to watching fantasy fb videos)